Guild Wars 2

vikramvish.1469:

i dont understand why u think i am trying to troll? when we were up against BG i didnt moan and complain that we got outclassed in every way possible, i accepted that we were not as good as them, and that the week after would be better as we would be matched with people more to our skill level/population level/whatever other criteria you would like to use… like i said no offence was intended as i just stated the raw facts in the form of scores… no where in my comments did i mention any ill will to the other servers nor did i put them down.

Regardless, if no offense was meant, you’re causing offense by implicitly calling weaker and saying that they’re complaining and moaning. Saying “We didn’t complain and moan” and “Next week you’ll be with someone more to your skill”…well, offense meant or not and offense not see by you or not…doesn’t matter.

The ranking system in this game is messed anyway. Server transfers are an issue; they shift populations too much for the overall rankings to even match up server properly because by the next week one server will have cleared out and another gained numbers. The point calculation and presentation is a major demoralizer that affects queues. Etc, etc.

That’s just talking about some of the systemic flaws of WvW and some of ArenaNet’s decisions but, really, regardless of the points on the board, the last thing anyone wants to hear is “We never complain! Don’t worry, buddy, next week you’ll be where you belong!”. It comes off as rude.

There’s been a major, major breakdown of communications here and posts like that do not help. When we say “Keep fighting!” it should mean exactly that. Not “Don’t whine!”.

On that note, if excessive spawn camping, at least from siege, is occurring on any location on the part of TC, I encourage FA or DB players to contact me and I will do my best to reign it in. I cannot account for players completely and I don’t mean to “betray” my realm or whatever some might say (or not say).

But I do want to try to stop actions like that. And if it is excessive, please feel free to make it known. I also, again, remind people that borderland spawns have two means of exit. That alone might be the key.

Still, and I mean no disrespect to FA or DB, would like to extend this offer in case this becomes a rampant issue.

Reonhato.5914:

… to complain that people are not giving the fight you want them to give is just selfish kittenry.

I don’t think it’s meant that way. Or meant as a backhanded insult or anything. I think the call for a continued fight isn’t meant as a complaint either. At least I know that when I want to offer complements, that’s not my intent and I’m sorry if anything I posted (although I don’t think I’ve posted much) was taken the wrong way. I really mean, genuinely, that regardless of score I, personally, want to keep fighting folks. That what I like about WvW. Win or lose.

I agree with This can be civil. And should be. I don’t think anyone’s really trying to denigrate another or question their drive or anything like that.

DB looks to be doing well in the Eternal Battlegrounds, although I don’t know their numbers in terms of people. But you guys seem to have the north end of that well held. I like that. And I know that FA is stretched thin with numbers but I’m looking at the pie and they’re taking a nice bit of it.

As for this:

vikramvish.1469:

i totally agree, the ranking system is there to eventually match server skill. it will take time and you guys FA and DB will be matched to servers that are around your skill level, until then please enjoy the game and stop bashing on us innocent TC…

I think this was either meant as satire or someone is just trying to troll around, Reonhato. I wouldn’t put much stock in it or give it any more attention. And if it was meant seriously, I don’t think that’s reflective of the overall community of TC. At the very least, I don’t find it to be and although I have no authority to, obviously, I apologize for those comments too.

Kyton.3815:

I wish the winning server in each matchup would stop saying things like this.

In every matchup thread I’ve read, I’ve seen this arguement used all the time by the winning server. “We never gave up and despite being thrashed we totally fought back and you guys are stupid for not trying blah balh blah….” Yet if you look at the threads they were in the previous week you see the same complaints about them not having enough players, why bother going in, etc etc.

Yet, this can be backed up by players on all servers. Every server has people who only enjoy it when winning and every server has people who still fight tough when they lose. TC’s not unique to the latter although we clearly pride ourselves for trying to foster a community where the general feeling to fight hard and well regardless of the circumstances.

Hell, plenty of people from Aspenwood held out and bloodied noses in the Blackgate match. Proper kudos to them. And I openly regret the transfers that Dragonbrand have seen because during the Crystal Desert match, they kept up a neck and neck fight with us for most of the match. And I loved them for that.

EDIT: I feel remiss that I didn’t note that I do feel that the WvW system is flawed in that it does unreasonable tax those who are behind. This should be addressed in order to encourage consistent fighting and a general sense of good morale and sportsmanship in each match.

KitaYumi.7048:

We never said we were winning, we said we were fighting.
You can fight and not gain any points you know?

This. I cannot stress this statement enough.

Sir William PD.9615:

I used to think TC had class. They’re winning the weekend for sure but setting up trebs to hit the zone in lacks any type of class.

Wide sweeping gestures are not really the best way to judge an entire group. I would attribute that less to the server as a whole than to whoever is firing the treb. Of course, I would be remiss to point out that most zone in points have more than one exit. Not that this necessarily makes this better.

Having suffered this tactic or similar variations, I would dare to speak for a majority (and perhaps arrogantly, for which I apologize) and say that this is not something TC generally condones.

Never give up. Fight until you’re the last standing and then fight more.

Regardless, it seems to be a pretty well matched…match. That’s gooood!

We fight for our server. Win or lose.

Very realms have a sense of identity, is the thing. Most people just run off to whoever beat them and moved up the tier instead of staying with something come hell or higher water.

I love this so much.

I can’t use the reply function but:

“I beg to differ.
Backstabbuild: backstab is main source of damage, rest is filler.
Pistolwhip build: Pw is main source of damage, spam with haste
Aoe damage build: clusterbomb spam
Condition build: death blossom spam
Heartseaker build: hs spam, but luckily that build has become less viable.”

All you did was name a build with the skill name included and then say the skill again. That doesn’t clarify anything.

I’m S/P as my main set. 0/30/0/25/15. My utilities are Devourer’s Venom, Haste, and Signet of Shadows.

Tell me what my most damaging skill rotation/mechanic is, please. Tell me the thing my build is based on and built around. Please tell me. Spoiler alert: you’re going to be surprised.

Bare minimum, I hope TC becomes a server people have fun playing against. Obviously, we want to win but we know that there are server currently and some forming that might have an edge on us. We can fix that to become more competitive but I hope people enjoy fighting us. That’d be cool!

It’s a fair thing to point out.

Twinbros: Quit saying “we” when you mean “you”. If they want to say things, they can say it themselves. You’re not their mother.

Some people fight because they like the effort. Some, for fun. Some because they have pride in their server (which you’d know nothing about). Some, to learn from other servers. I could, right here, list at least twelve reasons why someone might want to keep fighting. Some, because they’re not cowards. /shrug

As for whatever you were “right about last week”, considering that a) you’re generally forgettable when you talk and b) TC rallied towards the end of the match to tear down Dragonbrand, I’m struggling to understand what reality you live in.

But that’s all tangetial to the real point is that some people play the game to have fun. If you’re version of fun is running away, that’s fine. But if other people want to play the game, how about you let them?

By this point, Twin sort of has a history of defeatism, I daresay (and risk, admittedly, his disagreement or perhaps wrath). One thing I think that defines certain servers is a desire to persevere. TC has that. Kaineng comes to mind. Heck, even with my admitted and irrational competitive dislike of them, I think Dragonbrand has that to a degree. Every server has people who transfer or give up.

But really? Sticking with it, fighting tooth and nail, crawling and scraping for a position and taking it? That’s a kitten good feeling. I’ve been busy. I hope to be able to leap in this evening or tomorrow, if I can. Even without having been around, the mere prospect of fighting for my server excites me.

Wait, wait, wait, wait. RUN already left SoS?

Kerri Knight.3168:

I’m not sure this week is shaping up in the same way, so far.

Think that way, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

Twinbros.5372:

Yea it’s starting to get boring because were always outnumbered. I love me some RP, but I’m considering a move to one of the top WvW realms so that I can have free/easy wins with maxed out server populations.

And here we have a post that essentially crystallizes the issues with server transfers.

It’s something of a double edged sword. If rampant, it taints their win. And reflect poorly on their realm, even if not all likely condone it. Then again, I’m not around for all this so I will not speculate too much beyond what people are saying.

I’ll echo what I said in the last match thread. Good luck to everyone! I’m sitting this one out, pretty much. I hope Aspenwood and Blackgate have fun! I hope everyone does. Enjoy it. Be competitive but be courteous. To allies and enemies.

Of course, kill each other something fierce but keep a healthy competitive spirit. Again, good luck!

So, this was 7:59 EST. Great match. Thank you all, each and everyone one of you!

EDIT: I should also add “Good luck!” to everyone, including TC folks. I’m pretty much “off duty” for this next one.

ski.4927:

I got a PM from Madember. My friend(s) and I are discussing it now trying to decide if uprooting and starting over is the best thing to do at this point. We love a good community and guild team, but would be hesitant to up and move simply to be alone somewhere else helping another guild full of people we don’t get to play with. Is there ANY consistent night team there to speak of at this point, or is it pretty much non existant?

The spread is a bit thin but has been growing in small increments. I know a general amount of my time is spent on those hours and these still tends to be some form of presence. Obviously the choice is yours but it wouldn’t be the worse possible decision.

At the end of the day though, when push comes to shove, don’t leave friends just to come to TC or anything like that. I don’t think anyone would suggest that. See if you can get people who are interested and take it from there, y’know? As much as extra combat crews would be appreciated, I don’t want it to be at the expense of you playing with your friends.

I don’t know if it would matter. Glory’s not necessarily indicative of skill, at least not completely. It’s as a metric, basically, for time investment. Hypothetically, someone could have spent a month doing nothing but hotjoin, have a certain rank and not really have that tell you anything about their competency.

Calvin.5380:

Anyway, all the best for your next one, folks, and hoping for less drama when we meet the next time. We’ll have newer players by then, once we fill the vacuum left by leaving guilds, and hopefully give you a better match.

Man, if this is drama, count yourself lucky. To not exposit: there’s been a lot more controversy and accusations in previous matches that in this one. The Emhry Bay match comes to mind. Even our last match with SoS had more divisive issues. I think, anyway.

I hope your server does establish itself with it’s own identity and it does make me disheartened to learn that you had people leave it. That’s always annoying, even though when you get down to it, if they’re transferring so quickly and rushing, say, to get to such and such server so that they can merely win or whatever, they probably didn’t have the best attitude about things to begin with.

ANet holds a lot of blame for things like this but it also comes down to the guilds too, I suppose. And if they’re that skittish and lacking dedication to their realm, maybe you’re gonna be better of without them when you rebuild.

That’d be cool. I’d love to see your server not really deal with something like this again. Especially for the next time we fight.

I RP. Tons of commanders don’t though so…maybe but I don’t know. I think people just have a nice disposition about things?

Quote replies on this forum are weird and don’t always work…

“You should’ve seen them yesterday in EB, they pushed all the way up, took our keep and then proceeded to half-heartedly spawn camped us for a little while. I thought someone from TC must’ve said something snarky about them on the forums, ’cause those guys looked seriously kitten ! xD”

It’s like I said, they still are formidable, even with presumed deficits in numbers.

Zoula’s pretty much on the mark but I fell the minor need to acquit myself nonetheless.

Fury.6248:

So you label people as quitters because they disagree with you and know the truth about what happened?

You were the one who began speaking about people quitting, transferring, etc. I just gave you the benefit of believing it and continuing from there. Although I must admit that the lady doth protest too much, methinks. The only thing I really objected to was tone.

Fury.6248:

I have WvW footage of fighting both TC and CD, I am there everyday.

Never questioned that either. I know Dragonbrand still kept fighting and had some level of organization at times. Which is why I complemented them to begin with, which you hijacked into a tirade about how you would have beat me up if your big brother was around…or something. Plenty of DB players kept at it and fought well. My offering praise for this didn’t really need to turn into what you made it.

Moving on, I am definitely with Swag on this issue of numbers and transfers. It’s not cultivating server identity or “pride” because the former is completely fluid. Not enjoying WvW results? Go over to this place instead. It even negatively affects PvE and other content. If ArenaNet wants to really hold true to the name of their game, they need to put the “guild” in Guild Wars. They’re not really doing that right now and transfers contribute to that.

Fury.6248:

If Dragonbrand showing up for 1 1/2days(Half of Friday and a full day on Saturday) is the best weeks match you have had that really sucks. Myself being on Dragonbrand have been in countless weeks where it was a non stop battle.. but this week was clearly not one of them. Dragonbrand is a no show. You basically played against random pugs/night crew peeps an that’s it. We are currently at the lowest amount of WvW players from release date till now hardly a “battle”.

I’d be remiss if I didn’t note the sour tone of your post, Fury.6248 and while I cannot account for everything on your side of the fence, I’d appreciate that you at least keep up the pretenses of civility. I’ll try to do the same when talking to you. Try, that is.

Dragonbrand did well enough and held for a considerable time, so to call them a “no show” rings of an excuse to me. Dedicated players of your server played hard; that is, if I am to understand, the one’s who didn’t give up. I am sure you were among them.

I’m going with Swag’s word here though, since they appear more on the level and honest. DB was effective on the attack but faltered upon the defense, which hurt them in the long term. And he has a huge point about the costs of WvW. If can get pricey at times. That happens to every server, I think. Fortifying keeps and making sure they’re manned with what they need is costly and there ought to be a way to use badges for upgrades and not just siege equipment.

As to your talk of being outnumbered, I spent a large investment of my time in Crystal Desert’s borderlands this match as that was what I generally decided was my area of focus (ceding to any commanders that showed up and running my own smaller squad of volunteers for smaller attacks). We too, because of the hours, were “Outmanned”. We got the buff as well. But we didn’t see it and say “We have to quit.” It was generally taken as a sign to fight harder.

I’ll be blunt. I like Crystal Desert, even the ones I gave some competitive ribbing to during the match and the ones I just chatted with casually. I like the Dragonbrand player that I conversed with throughout this as well. But reading a post like yours? Doesn’t warm me to you. Magnanimity is a fair virtue to have. And I mean it when I complement your server’s playing in this match and CD’s. If you do not have the good grace to accept that, well, that’s really just your problem. Isn’t it?

The bottom line is that I had fun. Which is good because it’s a game. And I think I owe a lot of that fun to the fine players of your server and Crystal Desert.

“Skill” is probably a misnomer. Some degree of strategy is involved, even if it is just organizing commanders to cover specific zones. Some servers have even drawn up certain conditional plans. I believe DB tried this one, something like an “If X than Y” sort of thing but I might be getting the server wrong.

Now, by no means will I suggest that is the ONLY thing that wins a match but forethought and also the ability to think in the moment matters. But you’re right, numbers do too. TC’s had people transfer to SoS. Sorrow’s seems to be the place where people who don’t want to just transfer to transfer to a T1 server are congregating in the hopes to make one. Which they very well might do.

So, if what people are saying is true, I wouldn’t doubt that DB was affected by a population issue (which is also a morale issue) but there’s other aspects to it that to ignore would be disingenuous, I think. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be hearing talks about implicit collusion or as many justifications for end of the match slippage.

Now, again, I’m sure it was a lot of things. And that some TC folks will probably make this out to be something that was just about how great they were or whatever. But I’m also confident that there were more factors than, say, this or that and that and this single reason.

Heck, to deny that Dragonbrand played well would be a lie as well. I think everyone played well. And I think this has been, possibly, my favorite match yet.

I don’t even think it’s a matter of that. I mean, there’s a substantive gap right (~23,000) now but I’m never one to assume that things are over. DB could make an amazing finish. It’s possible. At least, I think so. It’d require a lot but unless there’s not enough hours left, it’s possible.

Warlord.9074:

Had TC come to grips with that and realized this CD was the biggest threat you guys wouldn’t necessarily came in 2nd and could of been 1st.

None of us care about that though. That’ll sound odd so let me explain. Sure we wanted first but more than anything we went into this match wanting to come out of it knowing that we gave a hell of a fight. And we did.

You talk about wanting to win and wanting to be number one and all this and you make such a point to mention all these things. “Crystal Desert beat us. You could have helped us with this. You could have won if..” but it’s all conjecture. Not to mention the real line should be “You could have unwittingly helped us if…”. CD dug in hard. They got that right. They got it really right. That’s a fact. And it limits options. And this idea that if we’d just ignored DB to focus on Crystal Desert and everything would be fine is, to be diplomatic about it, silly.

Varathiel.9128:

Well, good luck running up the score enough to actually pass us in the rankings.

At the end of the day, so long as the fights are fun…I don’t really care about rankings. Sure, a higher number’s nice but really? If you’re still ahead of us, you’re still ahead of us. I’m not going to really lose sleep over it.

After the initial gap was clearly established, I’m not particularly sure that argument holds water. Knowing is and is not feasible is important. Everyone aims for first. But not everyone gets it nor can they always get it if circumstances have already put it out of reach. And CD dug in strong enough that periodic headway against them gained what might as well be considered superficial ground. This is to say nothing about the number of times Coast and ’Brand fought each other for possession of Crystal Desert targets.

Say what we will about the the realm system and how it can act as self regulating check against a runaway win (and it can, we’ve seen it happen) but sometimes the execution of such a thing isn’t possible. Besides, I recall other people here talking about the notion of easy points in terms of DB attacking TC when it was clear they were turning outwards to focus against CD.

Yet, in that case, it never happened. That supposed advantage was never seized or taken advantage of in a meaningful way. On the other hand, as DB faltered, Tarnish Coast did take advantage of that. If the implicit notion is that the lesser two should always go up against the one on top, that’s not really the case under all circumstances.

Everyone plays for first. Sometimes they pause and do it hand in hand. Other times, they do it by marching over the bodies of anyone in the way.

Increase PW by at least 5% again. The change negatively affects PvE as well. If you want to manage PW and Quickness, you manage Quickness. You don’t implement punitive decreases meant to appease forumites. 15% is managable, if you play well but it does represent a notable decrease in damage potential for the S/P set. Be it in PvP or PvE.

If PW gets nerfed, HB gets it too. Because it’s the same situation. And really, the solution is not to reduce damage to begin with but to decrease the over reliance on Haste or Frenzy by making it more costly, both in terms of penalties for useage and minor decreases to the speed.

The bottom line is that there’s better ways to go about certain changes. Ways that can help balance things across multiple classes. And this is just one example of a "solution to a problem that had no elegance.

Something like stealth? Well, you fix it by having damage break it unless heavily traited for (to stop, say, a tick of bleeding doing it). At the end of the day, though, solutions should be smart on the part of developers. Not reactionary.

It is an odd thing to sort of congratulate another realm and then sort of go: “Well, besides this and this and this…that’s why you won.”

CD outplayed all of us, to be sure. But second was DB’s to lose and TC’s to take. Not CD’s to give out.

Quickness:

Note: The issue with Quickness is not the skill that synergize well with it. Pistol Whip can generally stay nerfed but I would suggest by 10% and not 15%, given the self root (unless that is removed and the attack is made mobile). Try to bring skills like PW or Hundred Blades and other burst skills relatively but not necessarily in line with each other. Let the decrease to Quickness and added penalties discourage over reliance. This this end, I would suggest these changes:

-Decrease Quickness buff to 1.5x attack speed. Keep duration consistent across the board: 4sec or potentially 5sec to account for speed reduction. Consider these changes or similar ones for skills that offer Quickness. Leave traits that grant it as they are.

*Haste: Keep Endurance drain; on use, reduce Endurance and Initiative regen rate for x second. (I don’t know the sweet spot for that.)

*Frenzy: Increase incoming damage to Warrior to 60%.

• Quickening Zephyr: User and pet cannot be healed. Incoming condition damage is increased by x percent. (Don’t know the sweet spot here either. Not excessive. 2-4 % max.

*Time Warp: User gains 2-3 second of reduction to all cooldowns. (Hypothetically because the skill is so magically taxing or…whatever.)

Some of these might seem controversial. Particularly having a penalty on the Mesmer elite skill. The are merely suggestions. I’ve always believed that the issue is Quickness. Address the rate and make it more about risk v. reward.

EDIT: I posted here, not to hijack your thread. But because I think it could be a good community think tank. And a well worded, polite one for ANet to read. Complaining about something? That’s a pain to read. But if we offer what we think are possible solutions, politely, they might be more inclined to listen.

That’s a fair sentiment and I think that to deny CD’s effect on the match (and their superior playing) would do a discredit to them, to be sure. But we also shouldn’t forget that there have been significant period in which TC has assumed potential point totals and even where DB has pushed back.

The difference, it would say, is the ability therein. Night crews matter, to be sure. But one of the biggest things at the moment seems to be the ability to mount proper counter offensives.

I’d say up the damage 5-10% from this and then alter Quickness. 1.5 speed increase, 4 seconds (or potentially 4.5 seconds) across the board: Haste, Frenzy, Zephyr, Elixer U.

Keep the usage penalties the same. That right there might be enough to solve the issue. And in this classes case, ensure that S/P is viable for PvE and that AUTO ATTACK of all things isn’t the more viable thing unless you’re really traiting give a lot of buff across the board (which you can, particularly with Acrobatics and Critical Strikes in particular).

Hell, at this point, Unload might be better burst that Pistol Whip. Pure damage wise. Or at least equal.

I’d suspect some of the camera angles would be a bigger issue for norn or charr.

The system itself isn’t really the issue. It’s some of the costs. It’s meant to allow thieves to attack quickly. The question that should be asked is what should be permissible in terms of that or not. That’s probably the fairer question to ask.

Well, I’d be cautious about getting overconfident. Either for this match still or, especially, for whatever next week holds. I think we have server pride. I think assuming we’re “one of the better” only goes so far. DB and CD are good. SoS was good. Mag’s getting better. I mean, as time goes on, the level of competency only goes up for everyone.

It’s probably tied to their very large, overly dominant win against TC and Maguuma. I wouldn’t be shocked if Mag players had some residual irritation from that match. I openly admit it’s one of the only realms I really have any negative feelings towards, although I do generally think that pretty much every server we’ve gone up against is full of good folks.

Score update as of around 4:15 ish EST.

Exciting stuff, gang!

Still a lot of time ahead of us. This is going to be a close one. You know, besides CD’s big lead. Not matter what happens, DB and TC should both be satisfied knowing they fought really tough so far.

EDIT: I saw this post and it made me chuckle for a second, even though Cephei and Sisho both have a point about Oceanics and coverage making a difference in matches.

muCephei.9428:

@Sisho:
Yeah. As someone from TC, as far as I can tell, our numbers fall off a cliff from somewhere between 2am and 10am server time.

I just did want to say that you gave such a big hour gap. Eight hours. And To a degree, it’s definitely true to some extent but that is a biiiiig window.

There was a much better spread last night. Sizr got smaller but TC had a presence at least until 5-6 AM EST. Dragonbrand did too, although I don’t know the size.

Hate to double post but just and update TC’s around 3600 hundred away from DB. Then again, they nearly passed them last night and ended up waking up to a 6000 deficit so it’s really anyone’s game.

CD- 130,219
DB- 82, 399
TC- 77,352

Potential Points as of 1:06 AM EST:

TC-315
DC-285
DB- 95

TC, 2 orbs. CD, 1.

Gap between TC and DB is 5038 points. Seems to be the general average of the day, with some minor creeping by TC. Last night, the gap was closer to 1-2k. Not sure what happened in the really early morning hours. Generally, it’s a lock for CD and that’s been known for a while. A lot of good fighting between everyone though, marred by some hacks unfortunately. Still, even with that, this is one of the more exciting matchups I’ve seen.

The best thing we can do, all three servers in this match (since the problem seems to be showing up all about), if to see if we can get the account name at the time to ensure that we’re all aware, that the players of the realms can keep an eye out for these people, and we all can report them.

Easier said than done, I know. But let’s all try to be vigilant and do our best to keep this the exciting match we’ve enjoyed so far.