Guild Wars 2

Click.5123:

Hint: Dragonbrand is green.

And can never quite hold onto the mass swath they keep with their 3:00 AM, 60+ zergs. by afternoon, they’re getting pushed back again. Overconfident and obsessive, to be sure. But winners by virtue of being able to outlast attrition situations with a rotating supply of troops. Troops that are…marginal in small groups. The zerg’s strong with this one.

I at least want some system which shows your cumulative gains for the day, outside of your total aggregate score.

Nothing needs to happen. The various downsides to using the skill combo weigh with the benefits. If you miss, you’re completely boned. And there’s a lot of ways for the enemy to escape the skill if they’re even halfway competent.

milo.6942:

17k health is pretty low, unless you have toughness to compensate, which doesn’t seem to be the case.

Pretty much this. It’s your fault if you’re glassy and can’t take a burst.

Sometimes, it’s Infiltrator’s Strike or Shadowstep that does that. For instance, I had a return point in the clock tower, retreated downwards so that the enemy would chase me and then used my Shadow Return to leap from the tunnel under the tower to the capture point.

As for Infiltrator’s Arrow and traversing drastic terrain, I’ve not really seen it. The range of the skill seems to make that somewhat prohibitive.

Izziee.8392:

The good news is that whether you believe it or not, doesn’t matter in the slightest to whether it happened or not. I know for a fact it did, and thus, is all that counts.

Strange argument. I could flip it on it’s head, you know. “The good news is that whehter I believe it or not doesn’t matter to me in the slightest. I don’t know for a fact that it did. This is all that matters.”

See how that works? All I have to before me is your fairly dubious story and your (and I know you’ll protest this label; protest all you want) irritation that I don’t accept it at face value. Neither really sways. So, you can talk about not caring if I believe. But if that was the case, you wouldn’t have replied to my first post at all, now would you?

:3

For doors, I think it’s fine. For walls, it seems a big fantastical to bust it down and then see a full wall pop up again. It’s actually rather jarring.

Show both. Show the overall process but gauge daily gains and losses as well.

The only thing I don’t really agree with is people who put up siege equipment in the puzzle areas. If only because it seems like a really stupid waste of resources. If you’re in the area too…well, sure. Attack if you want (although I’ve let some people from an undermanned server go out of some sense of honor, I suppose). But siege? What’s the point of waiting at the jumping puzzle at 3 AM with two arrow carts?

‘Least that’s what I’m thinking. It seems really a wasteful. And excessive. Which I guess people have every right to be but it requires a mindset that I guess I’ll never “get”.

Izziee.8392:

One of those classes was a thief. I went right into the HoTM, picked 2 daggers and 2 pistols and stuck a random sigil and runes in the pre-made armour, barely scratched the surface in what I could spec and just put all my points in damage.

I never buy stories like this, I’m sorry. They always reek of exaggeration. Mostly because there’s so many different ways to really run a thief (or any class) for that matter than the notion of randomly picking your Sigils and Runes (alongside what might be the worst one of the class’ weapon sets, I.E double pistols) is just absurd. Either you were playing against a bunch of derps (which is likely since I assume you hotjoined) or you’re a player with strong instincts.

But this “I picked a random set of crud and slotted it and dominated” oozes faux machismo bull more than anything I’ve read in a while. Just like anybody who says it about any other class.

Default build, a subpar offset, and random runes/sigils? And I’m supposed to believe what you’re saying? You’ll have an easier time convincing me that you are a hyper intelligent housecat typing on a game forum than you will of convincing me that you dominated under those circumstances.

I’d imagine you could hold onto a Soldier’s Amulet or something, along with Meladru rune set or something. You’d just give up, in exchange, a lot of DPS output. But that’s if you want to go for the traditional idea of tanky.

I’d suggest more that the best way for a Thief to take is to prioritize stealth. Pistol/Dagger. Shadow Arts and what not. Keep vanishing and delaying.

I’d assume because they don’t take the time to play one and understand that we have some easy counters for a lot of builds. That’s the cardinal rule, really. Don’t understand a classes mechanics and how to real with them? Roll one and figure out what their limitations are.

People roll thief for all of two seconds and get excited that they can spam attacks because of our resource system (which is, really, not even ideal in most case) and then their confirmation bias kicks in. And that’s for the people who actually bother to try the class instead of just complaining that a Thief killed them while being totally ignorant of the mechanics as to why it happened (ie. build, utility skill usage, etc.)

Say what you will about TOR but at least choices I made came back in the end. As a Jedi, people I saved came to my aid. As a BH, people came after me because of who I killed.

With this story, the first 2/3rds is really interesting. Heck, it’d be enough for the story to be expanded considerably in the “Order” phase of it. Give us even more time with our mentor. Make the Order really interesting. Have a longer subplot with that. Give us the forming of the pact and you can even have Trahearne but making him this destined figure is the major issue. It seems amazingly unfitting and the arc of his character feels off.

Tried it. Only a handful of Maguuma have gotten the hint. Good folks, generally, but I wouldn’t trust them as far as I can treb them.

Quickness skills generally have a fair cost to them. Haste drains your Endurance completely, for example. Which means that you need to be darn sure that you’re going to get that kill or else your ability to dodge or potentially flee the fight if needed is severely hamstringed.

That, and many of the abilities that benefit from Quickness often root the player. That’s why they’re used with Immobilizing skills in the set up. If you have a skill which removes Immobilization (and there’s a lot of options), then you can escape the attack without too much effort.

It’s only a problem if a) you’re caught unaware and if that’s the case, well…you’ve earned the ambush, really or b) when two players are attacking but that’s just as much a numbers thing or even a matchup issue as much as anything else.

That, and as someone said, these skill combinations are generally (and there are exceptions to the rule, obviously) run by characters that sacrifice their durability for DPS output.

If you have to say what basically amounts “It’s still your story because you are there.”, that’s not too much of a personal story, is it? It’s a story you just happen to be a character in.

Call me crazy but the three world split seems to be tied up more in balancing than anything else. Refer to…well, pretty much any game that features only two factions and its PvP.

I’ll definitely give it Mag and TC. And, like I said, this is far from the worst matchup we’ve seen. But there’s certainly weighting of the scales, as it were. Some of that’s organization, which is fine but some of it is something “more” for lack of a term.

I’ll be curious to see the next few days.

This attachment makes it look better than it actually is. We can push back but there’s a general discrepancy in what Mag and Coast is able to do compared to Dragon. They’re running a really frighteningly tight set up that only will close tighter as the night goes on. It’s not as terrible as over servers to be sure but there’s not much reason we should have been matched against Dragonbrand.

Now, granted…I woke up this morning and we (Coast) had…three supply camps and maybe one tower so there’s been progress. So..not terrible but there’s some fundamental flaws in the game design that sort of means that if a train gets running, you can only do so much to stop it.

Well, I don’t know what the heck’s gone on since I slept but TC has three camps and one tower. Mag’s slowly gonna get pushed down too, by the looks. Which is a shame because when you consider it, Mag and TC aren’t too far behind from each other (in the grand scheme of things) and seemed like a great match up. The deviation is Dragonbrand, who simply has too much working manpower at any waking hour to really be dealt with for a significant period of time. Partially because this format doesn’t really do much to help equalize pushed back teams against their foes.

So the whole bit about those big leads pretty much deciding long term strength is generally true. At this rate, we won’t have supply. Which means that Mag’s gonna get hit hard by DB, likely to face (if not a difrectly comp

Slyther.1297:

Dragonbrand vs Maguuma vs Tarnished Coast

This match up is a fair one. At least the Maguuma v. Tarnished Coast match up. Nothing against this poster but Coast is generally able to force Mag out of a lot of holdings. I think Mag got a fair headstart, to their credit, but the gap between the two servers is generally within 5k and closing.

Dragonbrand, on the other hand…well, they’re obsessive. Zergs are easy to push back but they have a rotation of guilds with an assigned battle plan. Which I believe we’ve seen since they were smart enough to not have that public on their forums anymore. It usually ends up being a heavy numbers thing, not really in terms of relative populations but rather, the degree to which DB organizes their plans compared to the other two servers.

I know that Mag and Coast have fair tacticians and strategists but DB literally has a schedule. Considering their meticulous organization, the ability for Mag and Coast to generally keep their Borderlands (although I think Coast’s took a heavy night cap last evening) is impressive.

Although, for as much as this match up has been exciting, I’m not sure if it is the most balanced. But that might be a question of the week long set up. If a server like DB pulls ahead quickly, well, they are going to stay ahead. That seems to be the case all around the board.

Signet of Shadows is good if you’re not rolling with a Shortbow. The movement speed has uses and the on use ability is something of an ad hoc defensive cooldown.

Any tactical decision that leaves you without any way to escape is a high risk one. If you think using Haste is easy, you might be right. But using it wisely? That’s something else entirely. Using Haste and then spamming attacks starves the thief for Endurance and Initiative. Without which, the thief is in an amazingly precarious situation barring smart use of utility skills.

Better yet, there are easy counters to it a majority of the time. Stop getting hit by it and practice some battlefield awareness and maybe you wouldn’t be throwing such a moody.

Server’s in last right now but it seems to be a manageable situation if we really work some strategies. I’m cautiously optimistic that even if we don’t win, we will have put up a worthwhile fight.

I’m torn about the issue. I’m not sure if siege should be allowed for those areas. There was an instance where Sanctum of Rall camped out the the Mistwrought Vault area with two arrow carts. You have to make a long, HP draining leap to that area to begin with. It seemed excessive.

Eventually, I managed to use a lot of stealth to get in there and destroy everything. Which, some would say, makes it a non-issue. PvP problem solved through being smart in how I was PvPing. But the ability to deploy siege in these areas is something I’m not too sure about.

There’s already ways to defend those areas without having carts or whatever there so I’m 50/50 on this. Plus, if you’re really crafty, you can potentially solve the problem. But in this case, the siege was generally unreachable and in a place where trying to reach it meant taking a leap that brought your health to about 1/3rd. It seemed excessive. Sure, outsmarting those suckers was great but….meh..

The trait is definitely meant more as an escape utility rather than a means of attack.

Even if you have the points in Trickery to give you Uncatchable, I’d still strongly consider the Caltrop skill as well. Focus on sigils that extend bleed durations. Consider something like Rune of Melandru to give you some more uptime in a fight or if you want, take the risk at being glassier in exchange for runes that will affect your condition damage such as Rune of the Afflicted.

Double Dagger/Shortbow. The latter more for escape. Consider building this into your utility skills as well. Have something like Roll for Initiative or Shadowstep that can get you out of a fight if needed. Make use of tighter, enclosed areas and choke points if you really want to build you stacks high. The longer you can keep your enemy on your caltrops, the better.

Some match ups just won’t work in your favor (high healing Guardians, for example) but that’s how it goes.

I know I’m writing this, it would seem, after you’ve left the thread but I’m doing it anyway. Hopefully you’ll see it and it might give you ideas if you consider the class again at some point in the future.

Pawstruck.9708:

A lot of these responses are confusing. You guys do realize you can only have 3 utility skills on your bar at once, right? The whole “Use scorpion wire and shadowstep to close gaps and blinding powder and shadow refuge and then maybe a devourer venom to immobilize…” makes sense if you’re making the argument that there are spells in existence that immobilize, shadowstep, and etc. But obviously they can’t all be equipped at once…

Of course not. But you can find the mixes that work for you. Since you seem to want mobility and stealth, I’d suggest that Blinding Powder and Shadowstep would probably be things you’d want. Pistol/Dagger seems like something that you could enjoy. You can still do some things with CnD and to get around your (generally valid point) about the worth of poisons, you could consider prioritizing the length of your bleeds instead. Deadly and Shadow Arts would probably be the trees to look at. Together, you’d get a fair deal of mileage out of your steal ability as well.

But that’s just a small suggestion.

I don’t know. The general tenor is “I get it and you don’t, neener neener neener.” …I’m done wasting energy on people who want to do nothing but put words in my mouth and call me a baddie. I hope you all get what you deserve someday. Peace.

I feel bad that you’re painting with such a broad brush. I’d like to help make this class work for you but I’m not sure what you’re looking for entirely. And I do think that you’re not quite thinking of the class in the way that the developers are. There are options though. And I think that you could find something that works generally close to the stealther archetype you seem to want.

Considering that the beta had the skill being far less reliable and way, way, more random, I rather like where it’s at. I know what skills I will generally get and can plan around them and the enemies I’m facing.

Even though I’ve written a pretty sizable response to the OP, I do want to allow a bit more brevity and say that I think a few of his points are based on some fundamental confusions about what the class’ design philosophy is.

I’d like to add, as a small note, that we even have some minor traits that discourage wasting initiative. First Strikes jumps to mind..

Tom Chesterson.6905:

Don’t be upset you can’t ez-mode 1 button HS anymore bro.

I’ve never used HS as my main damage dealer nor does my S/P build rely entirely on PW. Do you want to keep publicly grasping for straws in order to defend how incorrect you are in your assumption or wouldn’t you rather do the gracious thing and accept the fact that you know nothing about what you’re discussing?

One of the two options would certainly be more appealing to me, if I were you. That’s for sure. Honestly, you should count yourself lucky that people are even giving you the courtesy of responses, given the depth of your assumption and utterly appalling lack of respect.

sami.3801:

I dont think so. They already changed heartseeker.

As well they should have. But one skill change doesn’t signify anything other than a need to reel in the skill itself. It certainly doesn’t constitute an admittance that the mechanic behind the class is the issue. Thieves are designed around the notion that their resource system allows them to do bursts, at the cost of leaving them less options if they starve that resource. Take note of the first part of that sentence; it is the more relevent to the discussion.

As to the side discussion about Pistol Whip, the ability is the second highest Initiative spender in the weapon set, self roots the thief, and if used with Haste, removes all Endurance on use. The damage output is high because there’s a lot of ways to escape and make the player look stupid as they wave their sword about and because the skills that it has synergy with have equally, if not steeper costs for use.

I don’t agree with the first part because one of the things I like about the Thief as a profession is that we don’t necessarily have to be “stealthers” at all. Two builds. One with no stealth use. The other with limited use. And that’s a good thing. The ability to have the versatility. Because other people can and do focus their builds on stealth. And can play such smartly.

The class is generally trying to buck the trend of traveling stealth classes in other games. But thieves do have a fair share of options for getting into and out of stealth as their means to control a fight.

As to the second point: I’m not sure I can agree there. Even with a Sword/Pistol build that has Haste as a utility to be used as needed, I can assure you that my build relies a lot on my Acrobatics tree, how I use dodge, and even Infilitrator’s Strike and my auto attack (positionally) just as much as it does on something like Pistol Whip. It’s one skill, I have the capacity to make it into something very, very bursty if i need to (which isn’t often because the risks of failing in the attack make it a fair cost/benefit analysis before doing so), and there’s way too many other things I’m keeping track of when I attack.

Is my End. full or not? Have I stacked sufficient Might? Am I making sure that I’m flanking my target? What is their HP? Am I at the point when Executioner is kicking in or not? Is my Init. over six? Etc, etc. All these things affect my damage potential and I need to make sure I’m tracking them all, as well as Shadow Return point, CDs, and the moment to moment changes in the fight. PW spam becomes less appealing when I know I can just pick and choose some targets, leap to them, and do a ton of worthwhile damage with my auto attack just as well and save my Initiative (each PW costs 5, mind you, and self roots) for something like Black Powder, which can be more useful.

But ignoring these specifics, the reason the class has Initiative and not merely CDs is because a major mechanic of the class is burst. If certain builds capitalize on that with a specific skill (ie. if a bleeding spec spams some Blossoms because *that*’s a good way to get bleeds and, therefore, the majority of their potential damage), that’s sort of just how it goes. You can build around a skill, if you like. It’s not a unique way to approach a build, Initiative just means that you see it directly manifest somewhat more.

I partially agree with the notion of allowing some more versatile build options but we certainly were designed with damage dealing in mind and there are ways to give us a moderated (note, moderate but not amazing) degree of survivability. Damage focused specs are inherently less durable but you can spec to minimize this to a degree, also with rune choice. That said, I do think you underestimate the capacity Dodge, Shadowstepping/Returning, and even small Stealth bursts can have for our uptime. And I do question how many rune sets you’ve played matches with.

As for the last point about poisons, you’ll hear no quarrel from me. No objections to upped duration with less immediate damage (unless someone specs to increase said damage).

I definitely echo the feelings about Cluster Bomb and Flanking Strikes. The latter especially needs some reliability.

We also need more consistency in terms of what terrain can and can’t be traversed by things like Shadowstep, Infilitrator’s Arrow, Infilitrator’s Strike, and stealing. It’s just clumsy feeling at the moment.

Caltrops. Either from Uncatchable or the skill proper. Wider area, the former is faster for escapes, and it you’re not using poison (and even if you’re not really using Conditions at all), it’s useful because enemies build bleed stacks the longer they stand on them.

Urban Monkey.1580:

Now it all sounds good in theory, but in reality my experience was 99% something like this..

You’ve played against some unimaginative thieves. Let’s consider, say, a common rotation for my bleed build. It has some repetition but that’s only because certain skills, in any thief build, tend to take a priority. But just as an example:

Steal -. Use stolen skills (potentially hold on if it is something like a fear ability and not Whirling Axes or another damaging skill) →2x Blossoms → Caltrops → Roll for Initiative/Dancing Dagger → Blossom if enemy has purged my bleeds →Auto attack →Heartseeker if and only if needed as an execute.

That’s a rotation with only one prominent skill on repeat and a host of different options if needed. You can even replace the opening Steal use with Shadowstep.

I’ll even offer a S/P rotation that, while it does use Pistol Whip, relies far more on dodging and positioning to buff my basic attack:

Dodge before fight (generating Might and granting damage bonus for not having full Endurance) → Infiltrator’s Strike w/ Devourer Venom →PW (Haste optional), roll through target if Haste isn’t used (stacking might and dropping caltrops to limit enemy mobility) →Auto attack positionally once enemy reaches 50% health (because of rune choice and enhanced critical chance) → Extra Infiltrator’s or use of Steal as needed to prevent escape. Toss PW into rotation again if enemy has healed passed the 50% mark.

That’s a rotation with one big burst skill on repeat but barely because I need to keep my Initiative above six.

Done right, I’m running with Might stacking through a fight at a consistent rate from dodge and sigil crits, three 10% damage increases (Fluid Strikes, First Strikes, and Thief Rune set bonus on flanking attack), an additional 20% boost when Executioner kicks in, and 7% increase critical hit chance with flanking attack. Pistol Whip is there. It’s important, but is it the thing that’s giving me the most damage? Not really because the self root makes it somewhat unreliable. It’s my single strongest ability but not the most important thing affecting my damage output.

Now, your point is still valid to an extent. Initiative, because it is meant for allowing bursts, is a mechanic which partially encourages spamming of high damage skills. But largely because weapon sets contain one major priority skill based on your build. Double Pistols? Unload. Double Dagger? Either Blossom or HS (HS less now with the changes to the skill). For a Stealth build, it’s Cloak and Dagger to backstab. Sword/Pistol has Pistol Whip. Certain builds have abilites which naturally take advantage of the build’s primary states and it’s playstyle.

But even then, you’re better off using various options to control a fight instead of just burning through your resource pool with a single skill.

Note: Edited for formatting.

Tom Chesterson.6905:

That’s why it was the first ability to be nerfed.

A change that, incidentally, was a minor one. As I suggested the skill needed. Who are you trying to impress with your comments and boasts? Because it seems to me that the only one impressed with you is you. And because you don’t bother to read what people say to you but just make up things as you go. I said the skill needed minor changes. It got just that.

Am I supposed to be upset when you point out that what I said should happen is what happened?

elithrar.7143:

Given that this is the only major damage source from S/P, increasing the initiative cost would do huge damage to the viability of the weapons set.

At 5 initiative you can only use it twice, and given that the stun doesn’t last the whole animation it means you really need to invest in gap closers to keep on top of your opponent.

I believe that PW is in a good state right now, and doesn’t need to be tinkered with at all.

This is generally my assessment as well. The skill has enough of a risk v. reward aspect that it doesn’t need much changing. It is S/P’s only real burst skill, with their auto attack being the next best thing for damage if you augment it with certain skills or runes (Executioner, Side Strikes, Thief Rune, Eagle Rune). It might be annoying to other players but if you’ve played a S/P build, it’s clear that major changes to PW would significantly affect the viability of the weapon set.

Lue.6538:

…quite frankly pistolwhip is a far more annoying skill in PvP than HS, but HS definitly needed something like this.

The difference being that PW self roots and has some pretty easy counters. HS had some too but it’s a faster and generally more dangerous skill. Or, rather, much easier to use effectively. PW isn’t complicated but it has enough general downsides and a risk factor attached to it that HS doesn’t.

Hyde.6189:

The word you’re looking for is “burst”, but if you prefer to say “spamming” that’s up to you.

We have a winner.

Rifle builds can provide a good support role for controlling battles. Let someone else get in the face of the enemy and you can snipe and provide rife support from a distance. Properly spec’d and with good weapon choices you can have up to 4 roots as well. Solid for preventing an enemy from fleeing.

A few traits and proper sigils can still make them viable. Perhaps not as versatile as Shortbow but still usable.

TSLlol.4879:

It’s really not that big of a problem. Heavy Heartseeker spam might be fine for quick matches but it’s best left as an execute. You’ll still have plenty of functionality with the skill. This change merely reigns in the mindless spamming a bit.

It might be that but you should be able to generally manage, particularly if you work build around Stealth for PvE. Deadly Arts and Shadow Arts (with some Trickery) will become your spec trees. Which isn’t much of a shift from what you’re probably focused on already. You might just rearrange to make Blossom a bit more effective or to give you better backstabs. Use that as your damage dealer and then when the target hits the right threshold, use HS.

Or…something like that anyway.

A gap closer with potential for some very useful skills? Why aren’t you using it? For PvP, it can be very useful, especially once you know what you’ll tend to get. You can really plan things well. Going up against a Necro? Have Runes of the Thief? Enjoy using that fear ability and attacking his back for more damage (and higher crits if you have Side Strikes).

See that warrior on that tight ramp? Shadowstep to him, use Whirling Axe for some initial burst, then Blossom a few times, drop caltrops, and watch as your stack of 20+ bleeds take them down.

It’s really not that big of a problem. Heavy Heartseeker spam might be fine for quick matches but it’s best left as an execute. You’ll still have plenty of functionality with the skill. This change merely reigns in the mindless spamming a bit.

It’s best usage was always as an execute anyway. The 25-0 threshold is the change that affects things the most but not terribly. It should manage spam.

That said, this wasn’t the nerf I was expecting. I was expecting an increase on Initiative cost. Doesn’t really matter. I don’t really use the skill often on my daggers build anyway.

I have a whole build that’s based on Blossom and bleeds.

Tom Chesterson.6905:

What compelled you to actually press “Post” after writing that abomination?

The same thing that compels you to make broad prescriptive claims while making a semi public fool of yourself in the process, I’d imagine.

The bottom line is that the skill needs minor changes at best and if you’re really taking it that badly from HS spam, the issue is probably less with the power of the skill but rather rests in your skill as a player.

Proseph.3504:

Enjoy! 22222222222222222

If you enjoy being easily countered and stomped, sure.