Guild Wars 2

Shadow step is clearly superior currently. Both skills play the same roles mostly.

They both avoid damage, are free roaming mobility, stun breakers, and condition removal.

Shadow step can be used to confuse foes and stomp, roll for initiative can be use to recoup initiative in combat.

If you look at the similarities and differences though Shadow step is just better.

Numbers tweaks would make roll for initiative a viable initiative feeding alternative, without one of either skill holding a clear overall advantage.

ArrDee.2573:

Why is there such a large emphasis on effort! Why is it that someone who has 3000 games played with a 40% win rate can be higher on the leaderboards than someone who has 1000 games played and an 80% win rate! It doesn’t make any sense at all! It defeats the whole concept of a leaderboard!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Cuz love <3

Love those who give time to you by giving back to them! Love is the answer!

LOVE!

Ele has the advantage in a D/D v D/P 1v1

Currently D/D ele has not hard counters in conquest, so if you’re ever wondering who has the advantage in a 1v1 vs D/D it’s D/D or an even fight.

There’s lots of ways to make melee more viable. I just wanted to point out how significant the disparity is in risk reward between melee and range currently.

Not only is range lower risk, but there’s a lot that’s also AoE. And the range AoE’s are often bigger than melee AoE.

When queuing with 2 other people, when the map was supposed to load the 3 of us got kicked off our toons and sent to the character select screen.

Upon attempting to re-select our characters the whole game client crashed on us.

When things similar to this happen will dishonor be applied?

Belarorn.9062:

I don’t see this being a problem. If you trait for tricks its down to 48s for 6 initiative or you can trait for initiative with Heal and use withdraw. use both or neither. or one. personnaly withdraw is better with the trait since 4 per 15s and shadowstep

It’s not a problem the way it is, it’s just not viable.

I see Roll for Initiative competing with Shadowstep as a slot skill.

In order to make rfi more viable, I’d like to see it’s numbers tweaked.

The skills current behavior:

Evade backward to regenerate initiative and recover from crippled, chilled, and immobile.

Initiative gain: 6
Evade: ¾ s
Breaks Stun
Recharge: 60

Suggested behavior

Evade backward to regenerate initiative and recover from crippled, chilled, and immobile.

Initiative gain: 4
Evade: ¾ s
Breaks Stun
Recharge: 40

If you look at the meta currently, things that are dominating are builds with range.

D/D ele, which currently has more than 2x the range of melee.

Thief has ports which effectively make them ranged melee.

Engineers are almost competely ranged, and their melee abilities are supplemented with a pull.

Necro is mostly ranged, except for the dagger set on the power build.

Ranger is self explanatory even though it’s not exactly meta, even on power ranger the offset is typically used for survival until you can get back into longbow. Also, notice that ranger greatsword range is greater than regular melee.

Mesmer meta builds are obviously ranged.

Guardian seems to be falling out of the meta, perhaps because of it’s lack of a strong ranged option. DPS guard is strong in 1v1 scenarios because of it’s 20k or so healing chains, but 1v1 is not conquest.

Warrior has also been struggling in the meta (possibly due to it being heavily melee), the recent shout build is even very ranged especially it’s ranged support.

Ranging and LoSing is currently noticeably superior to melee, and it feels imbalanced, and you can see it in the meta. I think many people would like more viable melee options, but again the strength of ranging and LoSing simply doesn’t allow for it.

Imo the S/D buffed it overall even though it’s a dps hit, but yes it is still meta.

Can we get a rolling counter of the successes plox?

Trash talk is just people still competing and attempting to gain an edge. If you can get into someone’s head you can get them to make poor decisions because of things you’ve put in their head. It’s a psychological game within the game, you see this in professional sports as well when players call out other players or when coaches do the same.

The only difference is the tendency for youth to take this more seriously.

Justin ODell.9517:

crunchyraisin.6054:

So… as much fun as it is to qq, complain and restate problems…I’m gonna keep trying to think of solutions and post those instead.

Please do! I’ve committed to not making decisions (for myself, it’s not my call, we’re a team and we also have designers get paid to think about this stuff, etc.) until I see the data after the season is over.

That said, been wracking my brain trying to think of potential solutions to the concerns brought up. Maybe even something as simple as winning always awards 1 bonus point might help.

I don’t think that would solve Chaithe’s issue. That just means his, and players like him’s, time would probably 25%-50% more efficient, not 100% more efficient, because it’s assumed everyone wins at 50% anyways, and top players are likely to be winning a lot more than 50% of the time.

I think what will likely need to happen is that the weighting of points per win by margin based upon chance at vitory will need to be changed.

Maybe something along the lines of multiplying margin of victory by your calculated chance to win and applying that to your gained points somehow.

Nightshade.5924:

So this would identify the REAL problem. If, as you contend, ArenaNet IS in FACT basing PvP around the top 10% of players, well, there you have the problem in a nutshell.

Class balance should be designed around the aggregate, NOT the exceptional. Based on overall statistics, on what an average person can do and do well, Not a narrow and select group of chaps that probably play 8 hours a day, are under the age of 30, and most likely live and breathe ONE particular class.

And again YOU seem to have missed the CONCEPT of being outnumbered. Let me ask you this… have you ever queued for PvP and suddenly found yourself on a four man team? Well? Did YOUR four man team BEAT the five man team? Yes or No?

So again.. it would SEEM that KILLS VERY MUCH DO MATTER. If you’re DEAD, you can’t hold a point. You can’t kill an opponent to STOP them from taking a point or killing a teammate. For 10 to 20 seconds, YOUR team is 4 against 5. And it takes about 20 seconds to capture a point.

So YES, kills in PvP are pretty much an absolute. You can’t take or hold points w/o them. And I submit that if there are ANY classes that are SIGNIFICANTLY harder to kill than others in PvP, that is a problem.

ANet still makes balance contributions around lower tiers (Blackpowder nerf for example), but top tier has been their primary focus as it should be, because players can simply learn to play in order to overcome obstacles when having lower skill.

Being outnumbered is not the same thing as kills or deaths. Kills and deaths only contribute 5 points to a score, the majority of points come from caps in a match. You’ve lost context for what I posted, which was that kills aren’t the primary contribution to winning a match. Holding points is more important than kills, winning fights is more important than kills. Kills are just often times a byproduct of winning a fight. Thief is a prime example for this, thieves will often lose fights by running away from a point instead of dying.

If you get kills you’re likely to be able to outnumber, but you can get kills and still not capture a point, you can get kills and still end up dying yourself. Kills aren’t the be all end all even though they are important. But all of this is just supplemental reasoning anyways and holds less weight.

The most important point is that stealth professions play the role of roamer, which means they are involved in kills and deaths more often. This is one of the primary reasons your metrics arguement is flawed, because you want to look at the metrics without context and find any reason to justify your opinion that “x” is unfair, when the reality of mesmer and thief being balanced is staring you right in the face in the form of teams on similar footing having comps consisting exclusively of these professions aren’t viable vs a more balance composition.

Chaith.8256:

The Caed shots .. he played excellent on the Foefire though.

This thread is for stirring the pot a bit, yes?

Foefire is favorable to a team that is perhaps mechanically stronger and may be rotationally weaker, since rotations are much quicker and simpler on that map. Strictly stating my opinion.

Based upon today’s performance alone, I would not be surprised if Absurd regularly beats Abjured once they have played together more. Shout warrior counters a lot of damage from Abjured, especially Nos’. Ideally Tarcis should be in pretty much every skirmish involving Nos.

If I were the Abjured when I fight the Absurd I’d probably want a Mesmer instead of a Necro. Supcutie abandoning the Dankening to be a new member of Abjured? Nos getting kicked already? #gw2drama

Nightshade.5924:

Shockwave.1230:

Why do you want numbers about the masses? The statics will be different as skill rises.

If you look at ANet’s balancing tendencies they balance around high tier pvp mostly. In High tier conquest thieves and mesmers are perfectly manageable.

In fact your statistics about the masses of the game are more likely to reveal that mesmers and thieves when played have more deaths per match, because they are higher risk.

Regardless of what the actual stats about the masses say though, it doesn’t matter, because the classes are balanced in high tier.

Additionally, you shouldn’t demand things in this manner. It’s better for you to learn the classes mechanics and understand what the vulnerabilities are, be that playing the profession yourself or getting a friend who plays it to talk to you about them and dueling them. That’s what anyone who wants to learn how fight something would do. It’s also way more logical than looking for an excuse to change how a profession plays for that entire playerbase just so one person gets appeased.

Which is the point of USING A STATISTICAL ANALYSIS. It balances and smooths the overall results by looking at EVERYONE, instead of focusing on an elite group of highly practiced players OR examining a bunch of players who only have 10 games under their belts. This takes SKILL, PRACTICE and EXPERIENCE OUT THE ARGUEMENT. And instead makes it about the particular class’s combat survivability under any conditions.

And once more….. 1000 PvP matches. That’s how many I have played as of my log off today. ONE THOUSAND. Sure, it’s probably not a patch on someone who LIVES for PvP and plays it exclusively. But it’s more than enough matches to LEARN how your own classes work and MORE IMPORTANTLY observe how to take down ANY and ALL opponents. OR, as in the case of mesmers, possibly identify an issue that ONLY a statistical review of defeats and defeat related numbers CAN CONFIRM OR DISPROVE.

I say again… let’s see the numbers. And see what they tell us. Let’s have concrete EVIDENCE and let’s STOP SPECULATING.

cheers.

The point you’re missing is that the statistics about the game as a whole don’t matter when the game is a primarily being balanced around high tier pvp.

Whether the majority of people struggle while playing as mesmer, whether they are successful playing mesmer, or whether it’s in similar to any other profession has no bearing on anything, since in high tier pvp (what ANet has been balancing the game around) it’s not over powered.

Additionally, your whole premise that kills or deaths is the be all end all on whether a class is balanced or not is quite simply incorrect, as it goes for most absolutes.

ANet’s mode that they are balancing around is conquest, and kills and deaths per match aren’t what the primary way of winning is.

Further, your idea of the metrics is also flawed because mesmer’s play a berserker roamer role, which means they will have both more kills and more deaths than professions that play a safer roamer build or bunker role.

Your hard numbers on kills or deaths mean nothing without proper context, by themselves they are simply numbers.

The best way to determine if something is balanced, is to measure it at various tiers of play. Again ANet chooses to balance around top tier pvp.

Why do you want numbers about the masses? The statics will be different as skill rises.

If you look at ANet’s balancing tendencies they balance around high tier pvp mostly. In High tier conquest thieves and mesmers are perfectly manageable.

In fact your statistics about the masses of the game are more likely to reveal that mesmers and thieves when played have more deaths per match, because they are higher risk.

Regardless of what the actual stats about the masses say though, it doesn’t matter, because the classes are balanced in high tier.

Additionally, you shouldn’t demand things in this manner. It’s better for you to learn the classes mechanics and understand what the vulnerabilities are, be that playing the profession yourself or getting a friend who plays it to talk to you about them and dueling them. That’s what anyone who wants to learn how fight something would do. It’s also way more logical than looking for an excuse to change how a profession plays for that entire playerbase just so one person gets appeased.

Yes please, if you look since the launch of the game, the only thing thieves have received are buffs.

They never get nerfs, it’s so unfair, and all the buffs keep making the profession easier and easier to play.

It’s pretty lame.

Can’t wait until pvp is f2p. The esports will be massive.

Chaith, the leader board points aren’t the same thing as MMR.

MMR is a different metric we know little about, we do know it is being tracked overall and per player profession.

The change doesn’t have to be my suggestion, it’s just the first thing that came to mind without thinking much about it.

I think the point of the leader board system is to be grind to keep people striving for something.

The idea is likely based on any other grind. So basically players play more often and stay longer. That’s probably the hope at least

If this ends up happening then the hope would be that more good players would start developing, and the good players will realize that the leader boards mean nothing, because all the best players are participating in tournaments.

Dervish next class? Yes Plz

Vyniex.5073:

I mean i’m thinking carrion armor/ and celestial on the rest, what are your thoughts on that?

If you have fury uptime it shouldn’t be an issue mixing carrion and celestial

D/D or Shorbow celestial are your best bets

The thing that makes hybrids strong are a combination of celestial, might stacking, condi and power damage.

If you have them all, you can be cele.

Those two sets are the most likely candidates.

It’s on GW2Drama so it’s confirmed, OE and Caed forming a Really Abjured team

Kappa

I main thief. And I understand what the trait does for thief. My issue is that it allows me to be too effective for no risk. I can waste dodges and bait abilities from players for little to no penalty.

There’s no reason I should be rewarded with endurance when I don’t dodge something. I also shouldn’t have so much endurance that I can consistently use it to chain evades off initiative and slot skills thereby baiting players to waste their cool-downs with alarmingly high success. It’s so successful that it makes more sense to not waste cool-downs on someone running an Acro builds, which is a red flag that there is an issue.

I don’t think match making is ever ideal. In sports for example when you get to the post season, you don’t expect to see 50+ point shutouts in a football game (american).

You also don’t expect to see a series sweep in the world series, or a 4-1 series in the NBA finals.

Theoretically these matchups should average themselves out to being close, as they’re supposedly utilizing better matchups.

But this just isn’t always the case.

This trait is so powerful it’s astonishing. It effectively reduces the cooldown of dodges by 30%. It’s effect is even stronger with vigor.

If you look at something comparable, such as ability cooldowns you get a range from 15-30% (usually 20%), but those effects can’t be stacked with anything.

I’d prefer to see tihs trait be more active. Such as gain 15 endurance when you dodge an attack, limit 15 per dodge.

Quite simply the risk/reward for this trait and builds that use it is not in a proper place.

Guild banks too plz

Is that Phantaram laughing about telling Helseth why he changed teams?
;)

Justin ODell.9517:

Also interesting… Legancy of the Foefire, Forest of Niflhel, and Battle of Kyhlo have the lowest SD between teams.

Dat meta knowledge doh

Lopez.7369:

You can’t, which is another problem. This is the first game I’ve played in which the developers have been so secretive about what actual MMR and personal rating are — which indicates to me that they’re trying to hide something.

Yeah, the MMR lol

Vapour.7348:

I wonder if the outcome would be different if TCG made room for a necromancer or two

They needed to sacrifice a pawn in the case of Temple, aka Stillness
:)

Their comp was at a disadvantage in a 5 point split on Temple, and Sizer was consistently taking advantage of the Abjured’s over aggression in rotating. Fighting over 5 objectives prevents rotations from occuring at all, which eliminated that advantage.

I am a fan of TCG’s comp, they can win if they play near perfect, they just needed to make less mistakes.

Glad NA took this one finally ^.^

Thanks for putting on a good show boys.

Congrats Abjured, well played TCG.

You can enter heart of the mist immediately after leaving the starting zones afaik

It’s jump,

You have to learn the timing and jump twice back to back

Or you can jump once and immediately cast return upon landing.

Engineer doesn’t have ports and it’s a strong roamer, don’t have to have ports to be good at roaming.

Just click anywhere not targetable to drop target

Kocoff.7582:

Don’t get your hopes up boys. Caithe is DESTINY’s EDGE. she is a legendary thief, it is only naturaly that her skills are OP and absolutely amazing.

We are just petty thieves, think of us as Alladin. lolol

personally, i love initiative, it describes the thief perfectly (someone who makes critical decisions at crucial times). I like the management of it and so, CD for me a kind of pain.

I definitely would not mind that Second Shadow as an elite, that would render all the other elites skills unused.

Meh Caithe is okay, she’d get shrekt in PvP

Second Shadow was called Invisible Stalker or something like that pre beta, and was an idea for one of the elites avialable for thief.

Jim Hunter.6821:

GOSU.9574:

From time to time when I use Withdraw I get no healing. This isn’t often or reliably repeatable for me. I figured for a while maybe I was getting hit by damage and just didn’t notice. But there are times when there is no incoming damage for sure.

I have spectated some fights and seen this anomally happen to others using this skill.

Is this a bug? Does this happen to anyone else? Is it some sort of lag issue?

It happens on every profession. Sometimes skills just fail to activate properly. The failure is just way more noticeable when it’s a heal, invulnerability, gap opener, etc.

I doubt this, I’ve never had any skill except a port fail for me. If you have evidence with substance like stream vods though submit bug reports for those skills so they can be fixed.

Hotkey the build ui and you can pull it up mid match. Do this as a workaround for now

Is there anything the players can do to assist in ironing out the configurations for matchmaking?

It’s been a bumpy start which seems to have been expected, but if there’s any way we can speed up the iron to get the wrinkles out sooner please let us know.

Wish granted this patch

I don’t think this map makes sense to be in the ranked conquest rotation because it’s death match. You play completely differently and if your comp isn’t compatible with WvW style play even though it’s a conquest comp you’re at a severe disadvantage.

Lopez.7369:

So you literally didn’t test queueing with two of the same class? WTF?

Or they did test it on different configurations and went to live on the wrong config

I don’t know how to feel about this, it makes sense I guess, but by the same token teams that naturally have this advantage have an advantage early game over teams that don’t have it in their comp and that just doesn’t feel right.

For example, a team that only has 1 ele might want to run fiery greatsword. But vs a team with two ele’s (one of which is running tornado) they might be compelled to run tornado as well for the air field to blast, but most likely they just have to take the hit of no swiftness at the beginning of the game.

If you’d like prebuffing to be more fair, just disable skill use until shortly after the gates open.

Can confirm my team has been running into lots of 5 solo groups

Pretty much all games have been blowouts for me

I’d be willing to wait 2-3 minutes for a quality match, just saying