Guild Wars 2

Sly.9518:

Also just as a caveat to my earlier analysis, CG can only apply two Dazes max per target with how the Two separate ICDs work out.

Typically, I stack CG on the target. Since I have not tested this new update in the game yet, I would assume that each application of CG will overlap the timers since each CG will pulse at a different rate. My Impairing Daggers will ensure that they stay inside the gas at least for 3 pulses.

saerni.2584:

Note:

Spider Venom + cluster bomb + choking gas = 6 stacks of poison and pulsing daze on all four pulses. (Single target with no blocks/evades/invulns)

That’s expensive for 6 stacks of poison and not ideal.

Here’s how I apply poison;
- Spider Venom + Impairing Daggers + Steal = 5 stacks
Initiatives is still full for at least 3 CGs.

Sly.9518:

Notes on the CG buffs, the Skill has two ICDs tied to its Daze one for the Poison pulse which is the only thing that can prove the daze and one on the Daze itself, if anything it can receive an increase to the daze ICD and it will be great since by itself CG can’t apply 5 stacks of poison in one use to prod the Daze to begin with and people have to stand in it to be dazed, now the skill will be impactful on bads that don’t move out of AoE red circles

Yes, I’ve noted how easy it is to stack poison and shouldn’t rely on CG to apply them. CG should now be used as Daze zone rather than a poison zone.

Here’s how I see it. Thief regenerates 4 init in 4 seconds, but opponents will only fill 20 endurance in that same time frame which means, after 2 CGs, the target’s endurance is exhausted and the 3rd CG will keep them in place. Now, there are other ways to force dodges without investing init, which means when they used up all their dodges and crippled inside the CG, they can’t really do anything. In my build, once that happens, I can swap to my D/P and simply finish them off.

Of course I am aware that not all skills will be interrupted since it only pulse once per second, however, it is enough to limit the skill use of whoever is trapped inside the gas.

(cont.)

End Note
All other changes are no big deal and the Revealed application is meh at most since ArenaNet being ArenaNet still trying hard to make Revealed to work. I might login just to test these changes out also I’ve never been a fan of Warrior but that Axe/Axe buff looks interesting and the Engineer change too. Thief is definitely worth logging in. Even though Thief has a log way to go, I think ArenaNet finally woken up from their apathy and finally given their game the needed concern and interest — the lack of sales will do that (more that 50% down YoY — the players have spoken).

It would be a miracle to rebound from this which would depends on the next expansion. A piece of advice for the next pre-expansion update, take or ignore it, unlink the weapons from the Elite Trait. Make the weapon as preference for the Elite trait but do not force players to take the Elite if they want to use the weapon. Core Thief should be able to use the staff without DD so should the new weapon (whatever it might be) from the next expansion.

This balance update is moving towards a good direction. I’m still waiting for them to treat D/D and P/P like a two-handed weapon with their unique 5-skills set independent from other weapons set combination. They just keep on buffing Unload but they have to admit it to themselves that it will never be enough since P/P needs a lot more in terms of survival. The buff on Body Shot has also empowered P/D which in my opinion didn’t really need it. All in all, it’s a positive update.

I have not played GW2 since December nor posted here in the forum since then, but the change to the Choking Gas is worth mentioning. It now violates the DH’s safe place (inside their traps) and that’s a good thing. In PvP, Thief now has a tool to fight on the node albeit it still not good enough, since in PvP I’d rather use P/P than S/B.

The Nerf
These nerfs aren’t a big deal since they are PvP only and I personally do not care about PvP. This is a good start since PvE and WvW are do not deserve these nerfs.

The Buffs
The changes in DA is huge, not massssive, but huge nonetheless — it favors my PvE/WvW D/P condition build even more.

- Potent Poison – it states that it increases the stacks of other traits — meaning, Stealing adds 2 stacks of poison without Potent; with Potent, it will add at least 3 stacks instead. The number of stacks is very vague from the patch note.

- Panic Strike – this buff is not that great albeit it’s not a nerf so I guess it’s good. I’m still not inclined to take it over Deadly Trapper.

The weapon skills also received some buffs and it also favors my build.

- Palm Strike – Now this buff for PvE is great and it’s about time. I’m not sure how this impacts the PvP but if anyone uses this in that game format, it’s 100% damage increase (of course after the 15% nerf, but still a net increase in damage output). In my opinion, this is the kind of balance I’ve been waiting for. If they nerf something, they better compensate it with something with equivalent value without nerfing PvE.

- Body Shot – This is not really a buff per se since this skill needed this change for a long time. Now, the extra .5s will finally offset the after cast delay which will make the Unload follow up more smoothly.

- Unload – Ok, this change actually put a big smile on my face since this is a really good buff for PvE — in other modes, not so much since I have to rely on luck to have all bullets to hit the same target.

- Trick Shot – This change is very good in WvW and really favors a hybrid build. However, it still suffers from the problem I have with S/B for a long time that is, the projectile speed.

- Detonate Cluster – Ok, this one didn’t really need a buff but I won’t complain.

- Choking Gas – Now this is a big deal. Ever since they nerfed this skill, they never given it a proper compensation. The damage increase and the daze effect are good compensation for the nerf. Applying 5 stacks of poison is not hard and shouldn’t rely on CG to apply the poisons since it only has 4 pulses. In my build, I can apply 5 stacks and use CG to daze them. The problem with this though is it will generate a lot of QQs since anyone caught in the gas will not be able to do anything but dodge away. Since this skill don’t have any cooldown in between uses and it only cost 4 init, chances are if someone get caught in the gas will be GG. I can already see how this will play out in WvW and how much QQ it will generate especially from DH — no more safe zones.

Thief Buffs due to other’s Nerfs
Speaking of DH. They have been overpowered with their longbow for a long time now and the nerfs they received are buffs for the Thief.

- True Shot – For a long time, this skill deals so much damage for a 4s cooldown. It’s so broken that even the 6s cooldown nerf is not enough. Compare to another Longbow user, the Ranger don’t even have that much damage from one skill with cooldown in single digit. It not only deals a lot of damage but it also pierces up to 5 other targets. This kind of damage potency belongs in PvE, not in PvP or WvW. The nerf is rightly applied even though it still not enough since the damage is still ridiculous. Nevertheless, the long cooldown will at least allow enough time for a dodge which is a buff for the Thief fighting DH.

Shadow Shot needs a nerf, that’s really the bottom line, it just deals too much damage for its cost.

This DA Ammy plus a rune cannot really beat the efficiency of Carrion + Undead (or Thorns). The condition duration means very little when the conditions are easily cleansed or transferred. I’m still scratching my head on what the Devs think players will do with this new ammy. If they’ve made Vitality as the major stat and Prec as the minor stat, it would probably worked out better — basically a Viper with Vit instead of Power.

Wargameur.6950:

Secondary note : I just discovered recently that you could jump + #3 to apply tourment without beeing teleported back. It’s much more easy to land torment with that trick ! I got up to 12-13 stacks.

You could also have your back on upward slope and not get teleported. Something that ArenaNet will never (or could not) fix.

Lionwait.4815:

There are three things that make theif’s over powered::

1. Options snap ground target to current target. This makes staff 5 skill to easy.

The Fix: Disable this option function to work on staff 5

I usually have this function turned off since it never put me in the location I want to land. Most of the time, it’s not advantageous to land on the target.

1. Bandit’s Defense utility skill is a break stun, block & knockdown..

The Fix: Remove the break stun

Nope. That’s not gonna happen. It’s one of the best defensive skills that the Thief have that is not an evasion.

1. Escapist’s absolution removes a condition when you evade an attack 1 second interval.

The Fix: Make it 2 seconds of a interval.

The fact that an “evade” has to trigger in order for this to happen is enough to justify the short cooldown. A 2s CD will make this trait garbage.

VciouSidewinder.4029:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Wait what? You’re changing the build now so you can win an argument. To be honest, I’ve said that already that the build needs EA over PI and needs Withdraw over CV…but noo, they said I’m wrong. Typical trolls.

I’m a pvp thief who uses dash + PI + CV because its the best pvp build. If i duel a competent thief, i swap to bound staff d/p build because its the strongest dueling spec.

You need to adapt to ur situation instead of being too stubborn to swap and coming on the forums claiming ur build is the best in every situation.

Don’t be ridiculous. Where did I ever claim my build is the best?

EA is useless in PVP because u use dash, u dont get hit by dangerous condis if ur at least somewhat competent. If you do, u got shadow step and signet of agility to cleanse.

CV is better than withdraw because u spend so much time decapping and +1ing that the movement from node to node with CV makes up for more than withdraw so u can decap more nodes and +1 more fights. PVP for thief is literally movement speed and +1 burst.

Ok, I won’t bother with you since you’re really good at arguing with yourself. Good luck with that.

VciouSidewinder.4029:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Right, first he said he will interrupt my HS now he choose to dodge. lol, nice try. He speak of Thieving 101 and he starts a fight by dodging, lolz — what are you dodging from? Wasting all that dodges is a sign of a noob panicking.

I headshot when i see u sitting on a bp, not when u steal + bp on top of me smarty pants.

Right because you can definitely interrupt me while you’re blinded since both of us are sitting in my BP.

You know what else proves u have absolutely no idea about ur class? Your premade combo that u got there. Thief isnt about premade combos, its about playing in reaction to ur opponent.

Right, you talk as if Thieves have many other options. The combo works so it stays.

The whole point of channeled vigor is i can waste dodges. If u calculate ur dodges per second of meta build and initiative per second, 1 dodge will be less than 3 initiative. Ur BP and HS will require more time to replenish than my 2 dodges.

Is that why in your previous reply you opted Withdraw? Make up your mind.

The whole first portion of thief duels is baiting steal. Its ok to dodge if u can dodge steal and like I said, noob thieves like urself have ur premade combos ur itching to use so i dodge twice and thieves like urself will always waste all ur crap cuz u dont play in response to me, u do ur combos. It will only work on another thief like urself because he probably has his own combo he’s itching to do and it comes down to whoever presses his buttons first.

I don’t steal unless I have to. And you think dodging twice on the first go is a responsive play? You do realize you’re contradicting yourself right?

kitten bro, what pvp rank did u even get to btw?

Oh now it’s about rank? What’s next, you want to duel?

VciouSidewinder.4029:

If I or any1 competent uses bound, we know we dont have immob cleanse and take appropriate measures. Most decent bound thieves have staff off-hand/main hand to counter immob. On top of that, if ur using staff, u go EA over PI so trickster can be used instead of BT since u dont need to steal stab to proc PI and u can use withdraw as well to counter the immob. Especially considering u get vigor from acro which is usually used with staff d/p. Since HoT, immob should never be a problem for thief regardless of what dodge u use because they have so many tools to counter it.

Wait what? You’re changing the build now so you can win an argument. To be honest, I’ve said that already that the build needs EA over PI and needs Withdraw over CV…but noo, they said I’m wrong. Typical trolls.

Azukas.1426:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Azukas.1426:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

VciouSidewinder.4029:

101 on dueling thieves no matter what build u run, when the fight starts, dash -> dodge twice, bound -> bp, dodge. Using ur super BP steal hs bs aa combo and now u lost 9 initiative, put ur bs on stealth cd, missed ur steal, and i dodged all of it.

Right, you’re math is off because the net initiative used is 7.

No BP (6 initiative) + Heartseeker (3 initiative) = 9 initiative wasted. Here’s where this kitten gets funny.

1. You think all thieves run SA with DP. lol
2. The biggest travesty….you don’t even know they axed the trait that gives you initiative on stealthing.

ROFLMAO

Yes this mesmer knows more than you

tsk, tsk, Steal refunds 2 init thanks to Klepto…keep laughing.

EDIT: By the way, before you respond and embarrass yourself, this is what I’ve posted.

I pre-cast BP before Steal so I land on top of you blinding you before HS -> stealth -> BS -> AA. You’ll have no chance to interrupt any of that.

He told you he dodged your steal thus no Klepto.

Right, first he said he will interrupt my HS now he choose to dodge. lol, nice try. He speak of Thieving 101 and he starts a fight by dodging, lolz — what are you dodging from? Wasting all that dodges is a sign of a noob panicking.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Azukas.1426:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

VciouSidewinder.4029:

101 on dueling thieves no matter what build u run, when the fight starts, dash -> dodge twice, bound -> bp, dodge. Using ur super BP steal hs bs aa combo and now u lost 9 initiative, put ur bs on stealth cd, missed ur steal, and i dodged all of it.

Right, you’re math is off because the net initiative used is 7.

No BP (6 initiative) + Heartseeker (3 initiative) = 9 initiative wasted. Here’s where this kitten gets funny.

1. You think all thieves run SA with DP. lol
2. The biggest travesty….you don’t even know they axed the trait that gives you initiative on stealthing.

ROFLMAO

Yes this mesmer knows more than you

tsk, tsk, Steal refunds 2 init thanks to Klepto…keep laughing.

EDIT: By the way, before you respond and embarrass yourself, this is what I’ve posted.

I pre-cast BP before Steal so I land on top of you blinding you before HS -> stealth -> BS -> AA. You’ll have no chance to interrupt any of that.

If you’re stealing after using initiative at any point in a given fight, Bounding for stealth becomes strictly more efficient on all resources in every way over casting BP -> HS.

But that’s all Bound is about, just going in stealth. That’s my problem. I’m not just looking at that very instance of the fight, I’m looking at a fight as a whole. Sure it also grants 10% damage boost which will amount to nothing if you’re immobilized. A fight is more than just going in and out of stealth or dealing a large amount of damage, it’s also about surviving long enough to finish the job. Bound is a huge risk with little reward and to make it worth the risk, it needs to grant more damage boost. That’s all I’ve been saying before this Mesmer start talking about things he don’t understand.

Azukas.1426:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

VciouSidewinder.4029:

101 on dueling thieves no matter what build u run, when the fight starts, dash -> dodge twice, bound -> bp, dodge. Using ur super BP steal hs bs aa combo and now u lost 9 initiative, put ur bs on stealth cd, missed ur steal, and i dodged all of it.

Right, you’re math is off because the net initiative used is 7.

No BP (6 initiative) + Heartseeker (3 initiative) = 9 initiative wasted. Here’s where this kitten gets funny.

1. You think all thieves run SA with DP. lol
2. The biggest travesty….you don’t even know they axed the trait that gives you initiative on stealthing.

ROFLMAO

Yes this mesmer knows more than you

tsk, tsk, Steal refunds 2 init thanks to Klepto…keep laughing.

EDIT: By the way, before you respond and embarrass yourself, this is what I’ve posted.

I pre-cast BP before Steal so I land on top of you blinding you before HS -> stealth -> BS -> AA. You’ll have no chance to interrupt any of that.

Azukas.1426:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Azukas.1426:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

SS (#3) ? AA or BP (#5) ? AA will win you a fight

Ya you posted that.

So I think its time to stop posting and sabotaging this forum keeping any real talk about balance from actually forming.

Thank you

Taking things out of context is what dishonest people do.

Here is the whole paragraph;

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You don’t have to be an expert in Thief to be effective with D/P. Knowing the fundamentals on playing a Thief is enough — there’s nothing complex about the set. Compare that S/D, D/P is nothing special. SS (#3) -> AA or BP (#5) -> AA will win you a fight -- that’s how easy it is to use. If you do that with D/D, you’ll die due to higher risk and squishiness of the Thief.

Plus, learn how to quote properly referencing the right post.

The “standing in the BP” comment is within the context of P/P, has nothing to do with D/P.

Get your facts straight.

You have no mentions of P/P in that entire post, and I left out the D/P rant hatred to save you face…..I could post the quotes where you want to remove the revealed debuff…..

Please stop now

Thanks

Typical from someone who is very confused.

First of all, the part you quoted from is a respond to how easy it is for a new player to use D/P vs using D/D. Because of the blind field, it helps a new players in surviving combat. It has nothing to do with PvP nor anything competitive.

Second, my stance about spamming blind, not the skill, is based on my P/P build where I can projectile finish a smoke field by simply auto-attacking. The reason why there’s no mention about P/P in that post is because you’re referencing the wrong one. The whole post is how easy D/P is compare to D/D.

Here’s the right posts;

See this is the kind of remarks that shows your ignorance about the Thief profession. Misrepresentation of what I’ve posted is the key give away. Every Thief knows that no skill is spammable due to the limitations of the Initiative system. The claim I’ve made is spamming blind, not any Thief Skill. This can be accomplished by using pistol and simply auto-attacking inside BP or using Unload.

Another one;

You only need the bullets to pass through the field, you don’t want to be standing on it.

You can drop the smoke field and step out of it opposite from your target and keep them blinded. If you stay in the field, they’ll simply auto-attack you from the outside of the AoE. Using the smoke field as a wall is a very effective strategy. Always stay behind the field, not in it.

And here’s an older post of mine (9 mos ago);

I do that with my P/P build all the time. It forces my target to waste a dodge. Not so much about going into stealth. However, it’s not very effective 100% of a time but very useful when fighting against Rangers and Mesmers in WvW. ~snip~

For D/P, I get the same reaction in WvW when I do this combo. But unlike P/P, I cannot keep them blinded so it used to as a setup for a backstab…

Now your problem is that you got all these things jumbled up in your head that you think they are all in the same application. And please, you do me no favors.

VciouSidewinder.4029:

101 on dueling thieves no matter what build u run, when the fight starts, dash -> dodge twice, bound -> bp, dodge. Using ur super BP steal hs bs aa combo and now u lost 9 initiative, put ur bs on stealth cd, missed ur steal, and i dodged all of it.

Right, you’re math is off because the net initiative used is 7.

VciouSidewinder.4029:

U dont bound after the first finisher on bp which will still stealth u even if u hit them because ur not at risk of being interrupted (at least in most cases). I can see u have extensive bound experience….

lol, see, you don’t even know what part I’m talking about. I wasn’t talking about landing a damage after leaping that reveals me. Not even close.

Lol really? bp projectile is slow, no good thief will get hit by it and if u mean bp field then read below.

Again, you have no idea what part I’m talking about. Just to be fair, only because I’m starting to feel sorry — I pre-cast BP before Steal so I land on top of you blinding you before HS → stealth → BS → AA. You’ll have no chance to interrupt any of that.

lol, its so ez to not get blinded even if i land in ur bp. I can just dodge again or staff 3…..

Then you just lost. I used one skill and made you dodge twice or dodge and use an expensive skill. Do you even know how to play Thief? Because that reaction is just too noobish.

Because before, worst case scenario is interrupt, now its PI proc + draining sigil. I can basi after and proc PI again with the initial PI proc in most cases, especially if ur trying to bp hs since most likely u will hs again and proc my PI from basi.

Right, because PI is taken over EA in a heavy condition meta. Keep believing that fantasy. Someone here is even arguing that they take Staff Mastery for endurance regen, yet here you are talking about PI. You can stop pretending that you know, any time now.

This is just kittened. I cant believe im even explaining this. Firstly, if some1 bps, u should be more worried about dodging the blind and figuring out if they’re using bound or dash and how you will be approaching the fight. Also bp -> 1/2s cast time. Hs -> 3/4s cast time. Also if some one is in BP, it is so obvious they are going to heartseeker and on top of that heartseeker has a much more obvious animation. It doesn’t make sense to try and guess they are going to BP and headshot rather than just waiting for the bp and interrupting the hs considering the cast time is higher and on top of that u know he will hs since u alrdy see them sitting in a bp. I can’t believe u dont know this.

Sigh, do we really have to go through the basics on how to play a Thief, on how to bait skills and on what the rules of engagement is? Any experience Thief do not guess if the other Thief is going to use BP or not. That’s because the first few seconds of the fight is about learning each other’s tendency and skill-use pattern. Once you’re done studying your opponent, it’s really easy to predict when they will use BP or in what situation they will try to go in stealth. There is no guessing here.

I cant believe u actually believe this.

I am yet to get interrupted using HS to go in stealth, so yes, experience-wise, unlike you, that’s what I believe.

Coming from the guy who wants to unload or hs from a bp field and expects not to get interrupted lol.

No I don’t expect the interruption, you know why? Because it never happen, that’s why. Trying to use heal, on the other hand, I’ve been interrupted many many times. Do you know which heal cannot be interrupted? That’s right, Withdraw.

Azukas.1426:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

SS (#3) ? AA or BP (#5) ? AA will win you a fight

Ya you posted that.

So I think its time to stop posting and sabotaging this forum keeping any real talk about balance from actually forming.

Thank you

Taking things out of context is what dishonest people do.

Here is the whole paragraph;

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You don’t have to be an expert in Thief to be effective with D/P. Knowing the fundamentals on playing a Thief is enough — there’s nothing complex about the set. Compare that S/D, D/P is nothing special. SS (#3) -> AA or BP (#5) -> AA will win you a fight -- that’s how easy it is to use. If you do that with D/D, you’ll die due to higher risk and squishiness of the Thief.

Plus, learn how to quote properly referencing the right post.

The “standing in the BP” comment is within the context of P/P, has nothing to do with D/P.

Get your facts straight.

Lexander.4579:

noone in their right mind will use sword or p/d competitively in spvp

I agree. The changes are good but not competitive good.

Both P/D and S/D are waiting for a CnD buff.

VciouSidewinder.4029:

~snip~

Where did I ever said that Bound doesn’t work? If you’re going to respond to me with a wall of text, don’t start by misrepresenting my position because it only highlights your foolish misunderstanding.

Yeah you said it yourself, the fight lasts forever because Bounders cannot win a fight, only stale. I’ve seen this many times. If the Bounder can’t win, they run and reset. The fact that a Bounder relies on stealth only means that they are not built to win, but to troll. As I’ve also mentioned, Bounder only look good against bad players and they have no chance of winning against good player, tanky, and heavy condition. Which I’ve also mention that the reason I think that Bound is a waste is because it is underpowered compare to Dash.

By the way, Thieves have been winning fights 1v1 without Bound and I have my own share of 2v1 fights using Lotus and Dash.

And please, stop playing with words. Extensively trying a build means learning how to use it. When HoT first came out, I was one of the Thieves who abused Bound/Acro Staff and even posted here how Vault hits harder than Backstab. So before you criticize my stance, do your research. I’ve also used D/P and many build including using Bound and my play style focuses more on positioning and tactical advantage. While Bound gives damage boost and easy stealth, it has no benefit when I’m in stealth because of the risk of prematurely revealing myself. Using Dash in stealth puts me in an advantageous position without risking premature reveal. You see, you don’t get this because unlike me, I actually experienced this first hand, and unlike you, you only speak from other’s experience. So instead of using your own experience to criticize me, you’re using other’s experience because you have nothing to show for it.

Headshotting a HS leap only looks good on paper. Keep in mind that Bound has some airtime and it means the move is highly telegraph. Your plan crumbles if I simply Dash towards your location which your Bound will completely miss me or I will evade the damage and it puts me in a favorable position right behind you. Also, you can’t headshot me before I stealth with HS if you are blinded — I bet you have no idea what I’m talking about. It’s ok, only those who knows how to HS->stealth knows what I’m talking about. Here’s a hint, Bound has 3/4 sec animation time, BP has 1/2 sec casting time. You Bound towards me, I’ll make sure you land inside my BP. You see, there’s so many things I can do while you’re Bounding around.

Like I’ve said before, HS->stealth never had any problem before Bound, so your argument is moot.

You see that’s the problem of those who argue without full knowledge of what they are talking about. Nobody tries to interrupt HS leap into smoke. Every Thief knows that if you want to prevent a Thief from leaping into stealth, you need to interrupt the BP. Once that BP is on the ground, you cannot stop a Thief from going in stealth whether they go by Bound or by HS.

Using Channeled Vigor to support your argument is foolish. Channeled Vigor is a heal skill that yells to your opponent “HERE I AM, LOCKED IN A LONG CASTING TIME. INTERRUPT ME PLEASE!”

All Thief players knows, or in your case should know, that the only skills worth interrupting are the heal skills and cleanse and Channeled Vigor is just asking to be interrupted. Why do you think Withdraw is still the best in slot? Channeled Vigor looks good in PvE, but in PvP, that’s a no no. If you’re using Channeled Vigor in front of your opponent and they didn’t interrupt you, you’re fighting against a bad player.

Again, only rookie makes the mistakes of not having enough initiatives to use BP and HS. Pre-Bound, Thief can stealth using BP and HS just fine. Besides, if you’re in a jam, Dash will put a great distance away from that tight situation unhindered without the need to go in stealth. If you’re using Bound and BP got interrupted, you’re SoL.

You cannot reset a fight without going OOC. So if you can’t go OOC, you can’t reset even if you want to. Dash is a trait that makes sure that you wouldn’t need to reset any fight, which is something Bounders relies on.

Ok, sure I get hit with Bound, it tickles. The damage from Bound is pathetically low. It’s nothing compare to the amount of damage I can dish-out if I get invulnerability instead.

There are some scenario where Bound is great, that is against bad players, but most scenario given the current meta where a tanky warrior can deal a lot of damage, Dash is the only trait worth spending 50 endurance on. Like I’ve already said, IMO, Bound and Lotus are underpowered that they will only be worth using if each grants 15%-20% damage boost.

What’s funny in all of this is you believing that a Mesmer main actually knows a lot about the Thief when it’s clear and as plain as day that he has no idea what he’s talking about.

The IS range increase will only be beneficial if shadowstep pathing is not buggy as heck. At the current state of SS pathing, it will be really annoying not shadowstepping correctly to a target.

The other proposed changes are good and I understand why they split these skills. They’re still not sure how these changes will impact PvP so it will be adjusted further after some play time. They wouldn’t want to affect other part of the game while they tweak these skills throughout the season. When they find the sweet spot, I hope they roll out the changes for the rest of game because that IS change is really good.

emkelly.2371:

+1 for truth. Also…who the hell just stands in a BP Field? I’ve never seen it.

Don’t be a fool believing in the lies. The truth you think you are agreeing to is not even close to the truth because that’s only partial of what I’ve posted. The fact is, what I’ve posted in putting the BP in between you and the target when they get in melee range if you are using pistol. Standing in smoke field is just for convenience since a Thief can cover a wide angle without moving, simply just by turning. However, every Thief knows that we can’t just stand still if we want to survive, so the term “standing in a smoke field” only really means that were simply using it to add blind to our projectile. It’s a tactic used by many Thieves be it BP or Smoke Screen.

Azukas.1426:

Yes I dont play thief, but why do I know more about thief than you a supposed thief main?

You claim and you believe that you know more, but your posts show that you really don’t know.

1. All thief weapon skills are spammable. That is a fact. You deny this but have repeatedly called for D/P nerfs due to spamming blinds/shadow shot. So which is it? Oh btw you also stated you can just sit in pistol 5 skill and AA ppl to death too. You go on and on about 8 seconds of invuln (1/2 of which requires the Warrior to get hit hard) then state a thief would be invincible with that much invuln….lol no.

See this is the kind of remarks that shows your ignorance about the Thief profession. Misrepresentation of what I’ve posted is the key give away. Every Thief knows that no skill is spammable due to the limitations of the Initiative system. The claim I’ve made is spamming blind, not any Thief Skill. This can be accomplished by using pistol and simply auto-attacking inside BP or using Unload.

Any person would be stupid to believe that standing in BP makes the Thief invincible. That’s not even close as the same as Defy Pain.

You see the reason why you’re confused and all these things are jumbled up in your mind is because you truly have no understanding of the Thief profession.

2. You stated previously you are invincible just standing in a BP field AA’n ppl to death, but having 2 seconds of invulnerability in form of an evade doesn’t trump standing in a nerfed BP field? lol wut?

Don’t be a dishonest jerk. I never claim to be invincible standing in BP. It’s a survival tactic, not a passive invulnerability. Every Thief knows that blind can only prevent certain damage unlike invulnerability which can prevent all damage.

The 2sec evasion, if you really know the profession, only triggers at 50% health with a 40sec CD. This is not the kind of defenses that Thief need because this can trigger in times that it’s not needed and would be in CD when it is needed. The fact that you fail to understand this is a strong evidence of your ignorance about the Thief profession.

3. Bound vs HS is very relevant since you said Bound’s damage was lack luster. Problem is Bounds damage isn’t lack luster and is actually performing too good since it out performs heartseeker until your target gets below the 25% health threshold. Y’know what else bound outperforms in terms of damage? Shadow Shot…D/P’s bread and butter damage skill is out performed by a dodge.

sigh…if you don’t even know why this is irrelevant, then you’re just trolling now. Bound and HS don’t even have the same cost. Bound deals AoE and HS is single target. HS scales in damage for the same Init cost and Bound do not scale at all. That’s like painting a pineapple red just so you can compare it to an apple.

I honestly think it’s time you stop posting with false facts and lobbying for actions that would destroy these people’s class. You are doing a disservice to the players who are trying to make this class work when in reality the class is hurting compared to the rest of the game.

Someone claiming to know a profession he do not even play or have a basic understanding of the Thief’s fundamental play style is the one who’s doing the profession a disservice, if any service if ever been rendered at all.

Do us all a favor and stop

Nah, I play the Thief and this is where we discuss the profession we play. You on the other hand sounds like an MMA fan who think they can do better inside the octagon.

Azukas.1426:

You got blinds, weakness, and weapon sets with evades built into the skills….all of which are spammable.

It seems that you don’t even play Thief because nothing in the Thief’s kit is “spammable”. That’s not even close to 4s of invulnerability (8s if chained). Give a Thief an 8s invulnerability with 2 minutes CD, the Thief will wreck anyone within that time frame making the 2 min CD irrelevant.

If you want go pick up the acro line so you too can get in on the passive wars that packs an invuln that you can still deal damage while under its effect.

2sec evasion…you’re just being ridiculous now. If that is 5sec – 6sec, then you may have a valid point. With the Thief’s pre-cast and after-cast delay bullkitten, that 2sec nets for 2 attacks.

Also Bound’s lack luster damage out performs heart seeker damage unless the target is under 25% health. Bound does all this while evading being AoE and a leap finisher.

How is Bound vs HS even relevant?

What game,are you really playing because it ain’t GW2

You don’t even know the difference between active evasion vs passive invulnerability then you’re asking me what game I’m playing? Typical coming from someone who don’t even know what they’re talking about.

DeceiverX.8361:

I’d argue that Berserker invalidated a lot of core warrior…

I’ll raise you with DH invalidating what Guardian is suppose to be. IMO, Revenant’s King Jalis kit is supposed to be for Guardians just as much as Shiro’s kit is supposed to be for Thief.

Azukas.1426:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Azukas.1426:

Bound in itself needs to be “adjusted” in the form of losing its leap finisher. Right now it allows for 100% success in obtaining stealth. The fact you get 10% bonus damage, 2-4k AoE damage, and leap finisher is too much for a dodge.

It’s not too much for a dodge given that it is the Thief’s only way to survive and dodging prevents the Thief from dealing damage. Compare that to other profession where they can damage-immune themselves and still able to use skills to deal damage.

So no, Bound and Lotus should grant more damage given that fact.

Dash is by no means OP

Nobody said that it is. IMO, the Thief gets what it pays for while Bound and Lotus are underpowered.

Did you just compare Bound to long CD utility skills b/c some of those skills allow the user to still damage ppl?

LOLOLOLOLOL

How many dodges do you think you can pull off during the 60 second CD of Endure Pain? Much more than 4 seconds of invuln I can guarantee that. How many evades per te 80 sec CD on Signet of Stone? Much more than 6 seconds.

You are really reaching with this one here lol

The real question is; If the Thief doesn’t need to dodge in order to prevent damage, how much damage do you think the Thief can deliver?

There is no question that the Thief will deliver more damage than what Bound can offer if they have damage-immunity skills.

The fact that the Thief has to use dodge to prevent damage limits their potential damage output and then forced to be satisfied with a lackluster Bound damage. Not to mentioned the recent nerf to the AoE radius of Bound, which makes hitting someone with the AoE inconsistent.

kash.9213:

Dash had better offer more of it’s signature feature, it’s mostly all defensive and travels too far, apart from non combat use. Bound is mostly fine as is unless you’re a glass jaw and can’t survive an immobilize, given a build that contributes to it’s evade as consequence and it starts getting a little ridiculous. I’m trying to imagine a Staff/Acro build with a 20% damage boost on top of a leap finisher and an evade and dodge to push part of the build, I’ll take that. I’m speaking from my own rollout though, the one set I would take Dash with is the standard D/P,SB build, that all works so well together considering most of that set starts at range.

I really doubt that at this point in time that they will nerf the tankiness of other professions, so to balance the damage output of Thief against their defenses, Bound and Lotus should receive a buff. 20% should be the right amount, but no less than 15%.

Azukas.1426:

Bound in itself needs to be “adjusted” in the form of losing its leap finisher. Right now it allows for 100% success in obtaining stealth. The fact you get 10% bonus damage, 2-4k AoE damage, and leap finisher is too much for a dodge.

It’s not too much for a dodge given that it is the Thief’s only way to survive and dodging prevents the Thief from dealing damage. Compare that to other profession where they can damage-immune themselves and still able to use skills to deal damage.

So no, Bound and Lotus should grant more damage given that fact.

Dash is by no means OP

Nobody said that it is. IMO, the Thief gets what it pays for while Bound and Lotus are underpowered.

kash.9213:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

It only goes full circle when you try to connect stealth with it, even though, going in stealth does not necessitates picking Bound over Dash. In fact, if the Thief wants suvivability outside stealth, the only choice is Dash. It’s not critical for Dashers to go in stealth since they can cleanse and resist a wide variety of conditions better than Bounders. Revealed debuff has worst effect on Bounders than on Dashers.

Bound is only a “good” choice if the Thief is roaming with a partner who can cleanse and top him off during combat — with a Druid for example.

I rarely go in stealth but I’m still built to survive a fight, seems to be what our tier needs with these red carpets I’m seeing more of now, and I use bound over dash but it fits my build. If you’re built for survival, dash is great to run away with or for duels but bound is just as good to survive while holding on to the position you want. To me, one dodge is for fighting and the other is for scouting.

Between weapon switching, Steal, and other utilities you should never be without a Stealth in your pocket. Regardless, I only really use Stealth to cover my direction or to pie corners and cross roads on top of occasionally using it in fight to change my orientation on my target, bound feels far more natural in that last regard. It’s all perspective though, not saying you’re wrong as you might be right if you’re talking in general.

This is really not an argument who is right and who is wrong. It’s a discussion of experience, point of view, and play style. We’re simply pointing out the strengths and weaknesses of each dodge GM.

For the same cost of 50 endurance, a Thief gets more out of Dash than of Bound or Lotus. IMO, Bound and Lotus should grant a 15% (or even 20%) boost instead of 10% just to put it in line with the value of Dash. The risk of not taking Dash should be rewarding, however at this point, it’s just a waste of resources.

The 10% damage boost is just meh, so the main purpose of Bound is to leap in smoke fields. If the damage boost is 15% or 20%, then we’ll see a more meaningful use of Bound since it will be a trade-off if the Thief will waste that boost just to go in stealth. Also, we’ll see more Bound used for offense than for escape.

It only goes full circle when you try to connect stealth with it, even though, going in stealth does not necessitates picking Bound over Dash. In fact, if the Thief wants suvivability outside stealth, the only choice is Dash. It’s not critical for Dashers to go in stealth since they can cleanse and resist a wide variety of conditions better than Bounders. Revealed debuff has worst effect on Bounders than on Dashers.

Bound is only a “good” choice if the Thief is roaming with a partner who can cleanse and top him off during combat — with a Druid for example.

Immob forces a Bounders to waste resources (init and endurance) and cooldowns. There’s really nothing more to it.

You don’t really have to build a lock down since a couple of immob is sufficient enough to control a Bounder. There’s no point trying to immob a Dasher.

babazhook.6805:

This works well in a condition p/d build high duration because not only is that immob spammable at 2 secs per shot but you apply vuln which another cover and ticks existing conditions higher.

Yes, I’m basically referring to P/D or other condition damage builds which is rampant in WvW and really easy to use. A simple Steal that puts poison and weakness (+ confusion when spec’d) on a Bounder reduces their effectiveness greatly. Weakness is bad for Bounder Thief even if they have 3 dodges. So if you apply the right conditions, the Thief will simply melt. That’s the reality.

Immob against Thief is not used to deal damage while they are immobilized. Immob is used to prevent them from running an resetting the fight. Bounders do not ever spec for Don’t Stop and even if they try to prevent damage by constantly evading, all they’re doing is wasting resources, both init and endurance. Then after that, they cannot use any skills or dodge makes them an easy kill. I’ve seen many Bounders mindlessly spams evade skill. Even Staff 5 is easy to counter — just pop Bandit’s Defense, get close to the Thief spamming Staff 5 while Immob, BD will block the Staff AoE damage then click on KD while they are stuck in after cast. This always put them in a panic and makes a lot of mistakes.

omg necro in Thief forum

(forum bug is lame)

emkelly.2371:

I don’t really disagree with anything you said, but i should point out that the thread topic is actually the dodge spam meta. (this includes both bound and Lotus span regardless of what the initial post says. Neither are really meta however.

The topic is about nerfing the dodge spam meta blaming Acro for it. The discussion is now about whether it is actually Acro to blame or is it DD? Sure you can dodge spam any of the 3 DD dodges, but which of these dodges is the source of the frustration. I argue that the source of frustration is Dash since it has a very effective counter-vs-counter ability. While Lotus and Bound can be immob and CC’d, which makes them balance in their own sense (IMO, Lotus and Bound is even underpowered compared to Dash). So there will be a nerfed, will it be Dash or the other two, or would it be Acro?

IMO, I want to make a lot of changes, as you can read here, but there should not be any nerf, in fact, both Bound and Lotus should grant +15% damage boost just to keep it even with Dash’s damage reduction. My reason is, a P/P using Bound attacking a Dasher, the Dasher will reduce both damage (physical and condition) effectively a 20% damage reduction while Bound only grants 10%. For the same cost, Dash is more efficient than Bound, that is why it doesn’t make sense to me to waste endurance using Bound for leap finish.

In a sense, this discussion just invalidated the premise of the topic. Thief doesn’t need to be nerfed, it actually need a buff so that using Bound (or Lotus) will make sense even if it used just for a leap finish. So now you see the point I’m getting at.

DeceiverX.8361:

There’s no convincing you that multiple HS casts don’t make more sense.

Your original argument was based around wasting endurance – the 10s cooldown claim – versus initiative, which are arguably equally-accessible in terms of their effective cooldowns.

Bound doesn’t just look good, though; it works effectively for what it’s designed to do, and it allows for things which simply cannot happen on the core thief, like letting S/P and P/P get sustained stealth access and bump already-high damage. Dash in essence is the old Acro build in a nutshell, while Bound is half-SA half-DA. I think you’re stuck on trying to find the better trait of the two when in all reality it’s heavily matchup and play dependent. You’ll see inherently more Dash players in sPvP due to the mobility bonus it has, while you’ll see a very even split if not favoring Bound these days in WvW where said mobility often doesn’t really matter.

S/P and P/P is not the topic here, it’d D/P using Bound. As I’ve already mentioned, Bound only look good against bad players who don’t know to fight against a Bounding Thief. Condition damage and CC kills Bounding Thieves really easy since if they cannot evade an attack, they cannot cleanse, which forcing them to use a long CD cleanse — after that they die.

Denying a thief its EA cleansing isn’t unique to bound, either. Frankly, playing to deny EA cleansing is even more significant when against Dash players since cover conditions like Cripple/Chill will be cleansed allowing EA to proc more DoT effects, while Bound players can still be overwhelmed with relative ease.

The real difference is, if a Bounder is immobilized, they are sitting duck while they are loaded with conditions. A Dasher can dodge out of immob and evade whatever other attacks coming in after that and any conditions already on the Dasher will be resisted dealing 10% less damage, while the Bounder will take full damage.

The bottom line is that D/P doesn’t need Bound to be effective, it just makes D/P more gimmicky.

Taobella.6597:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Taobella.6597:

I see your 18k gunflame i raise you

28k vault http://i.imgur.com/xJYvYP6.jpg

Nice try against Level 56.

lv58 mastery lol.. and he was a 2400 armor

I was messing with you…lol.

DeceiverX.8361:

I’ll just reiterate what I responded to to begin with:

Alatar.7364:

DeceiverX.8361:

Maybe I’m misunderstanding what’s being said here, but the Daredevil can do a ton of damage while dodging via Lotus and Bound.

Nobody uses Bounding Dodger unless he is out of mind. Lotus is the only exception, used only by Condi builds. Unhindered combatant is the only one for 90% of Dardevils

I then broke down why the resources are not a big concern and why people think the tradeoff is good. Even if people personally do not like to use Bound, it has purpose, god players make use of it, and it’s not as resource-hungry kitten many people may initially expect when using good play techniques.

Vin, what you’re not factoring in in respects to extra dodges for stealth is the use of things which grant endurance.

Endurance Thief + CV + Signet of Agility + Sigil of Endurace puts that extra dodge “cooldown” at much lower than 10s, not to mention the increased likelihood of people running BD or Impact further increasing endurance regen. On-demand endurance is easy to come by. On-demand initiative is limited to (equally) steal, RFI which is +1 init/10s and Infil Signet also at +1 init/10s. While no perfect substitute for HS, it comes very close in its effective cooldown, and enables more initiative use for offensive or defensive ability use spread throughout a given fight.

I still stand by my original claim in that people in fact do use both and for good reason: Both dodges are excellent and roughly equally strong assuming OH pistol is played.

Even with all those things factored in while watching someone who uses them, I still see the wastefulness of it when Bound in used to go in stealth when using HS makes more sense and D/P has always been effective even without Bound. The Endurance regen doesn’t really explains the pick of Bound over Dash. The only real difference is that Bound grants 10% dmg (and maybe deal damage when lucky) while Dash prevents 10% damage (besides the fact that it’s hard to CC).

The videos surely shows that Bound look good, but you can also see in those videos that those who they are fighting doesn’t really know how to fight against a Thief. They dump conditions on the Thief and allow the Thief to cleanse them by auto-attacking. The Bounding Thief relies on players like this to survive, but against good players, they will watch the Thief DoT to death by completely denying the Thief of cleanse and covering their conditions with weaker ones.

Taobella.6597:

I see your 18k gunflame i raise you

28k vault http://i.imgur.com/xJYvYP6.jpg

Nice try against Level 56.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

They opt for the amulet system to make it easier for them to balance PvP and I don’t think that will change anytime soon. The major problem is not really the amulet but ArenaNet’s stubbornness in not separating the skills for each game type. If they accepted the fact that skills needs to be separated for PvP, they can adjust the Thief’s skills in PvP where it scales better with amulet. But I guess that’s “too much work” according to them.

The reason I am adverse to separating skill balance is because ANet clearly struggles with managing even on the conceptual level the pool of skills that already exists, and especially given the thief, the problems are more ingrained specifically with the math behind amulets and modifiers that compensating anywhere outside of amulets would result in even flukier balance; increase them to more similarly match WvW performance and you end up with all-in builds and tank builds playing overly-effectively since these would be stackable into insanity, while failing to increase them enough would still perpetuate the lack of diversity in viable build paths.

While ultimately the lack of weapon diversity does largely extend to the disparity or blatant weakness of some skills, the lack of trait/style diversity across all professions in sPvP can almost entirely be placed on the existing amulet system.

Not to mention we wouldn’t even need stat power creep like Marauder’s gear since a mix-and-match approach to stats and higher stat pools in general would enable more balanced split-stat builds and build weakness/style compensation in other areas while not just objectively losing performance everywhere.

Mix and matching gears will exponentially make balancing more difficult since they have to account for every possible gear combination. They opted for amulet to avoid that obvious headache induced situation.

Contrary to their protest against the separation of PvP and PvE skills, it will make their balancing life much easier because they can balance PvP however they want without affecting the balance in PvE. Currently, a simple buff (or nerf) in PvP has a devastating effect in PvE and WvW — and vice versa. They need accept the fact that they already separated them by opting on amulets and generic gear in PvP, so why stop there?

Right now, they can’t make drastic changes to skills for PvP’s sake because it will setback the balance in the Raid contents that they are currently developing. If they have separated the skills, they will be removing this stupid shackles they’ve applied unto themselves. They can balance the PvP skills without derailing the balance in Raids or any other PvE contents.

They opt for the amulet system to make it easier for them to balance PvP and I don’t think that will change anytime soon. The major problem is not really the amulet but ArenaNet’s stubbornness in not separating the skills for each game type. If they accepted the fact that skills needs to be separated for PvP, they can adjust the Thief’s skills in PvP where it scales better with amulet. But I guess that’s “too much work” according to them.

babazhook.6805:

Bound has a multitude of advantages other then those stated by deceiver. I speak to WvW here but the reasons to take and use bound over dash or heartseeker include.

When compared to HS.

It AOE damage rather then single target. Significant damage can be applied to multiple enemies clustered at a chokepoint.While the distance of that AOE limited it in essence a large cleave. This works great when attacking an enemy that might be trying to rez another or bound an area into which someone just stealthed.

It boosts ones damage by 10 percent for subsequent attacks. HS does not do this. It does not have damage predicated on health of enemy. Just as much damage can be applied on full health as opposed to near dead enemies and this damage significant.

The Bound is an evade which procs on evade traits. HS will not do this. A Bound can proc vigor , regen , cleanse a condition , give a small heal , add swiftness , and lower steal all for that 50 Endurance cost. A HS only does damage .

If using DD runes bound can ensure the next hit a Crit , HS does not do this. Bound in and do damage which can be significant (while proccing all those traits) THEN use your HS for a guaranteed crit on an enemy no longer at 100 percent health. 10 percent more damage will also be added to this HS. The two can be used in conjunction to make each better.

When comparing that 50 endurance used by bound to the Ini used by HS you have to factor in all of the other things a bound can do over and above an HS.

The advantages of Bound over UC are these. It does damage. It can proc crits, interrupts and on damage effects due to that damage. BASI venom with a bound can generate an interrupt which in turn can proc a Pulmonary impact added to the bound. If you have an on interrupt sigil it can proc an added amount of damage/effects on top of that.

UC is not a finisher.

Now using a combination of HS and UC one can gain many of the same effects of bound along with the added benefits of UC, that being the immob break and added seconds of swiftness , but if one already has other sources of Immob breaks then the benefit of UC becomes much less as compared to bound. It the remove of cripple/chill and a little added distance on a dodge along with that added damage mitigation over more damage for those few seconds on use. Someone taking bound over UC does not lose access to HS so the only “loss” in utility is what unique to UC.

There also other weaponsets then d/x in any case thus they may not have HS.

I’m well aware of the benefits of Bound, I’ve abused it extensively, however the meta have adopted and evolved that Bound’s benefits becomes moot. Weakness and Chill are the killers of that +10% damage boost and endurance regen — those conditions are everywhere now. In many of the videos, the other players are constantly auto-attacking even though the Thief already have multiple conditions — which are obviously bad players not realizing that they are giving the Thief access to cleanse whenever they attack the Thief. That’s why it’s easy to see from those videos if the player is against good or bad players. Bad players doesn’t know or understand the basics of Thief, that’s why Bound looks so good against those kind of players where it can crit for 3500.

That’s why Bound is nothing but an expensive leap finisher that grants stealth, because against good players, Bounding around is not going to work.

DeceiverX.8361:

I’ll break it down for you since you seem to be failing to understand it.

If you cast HS and then bound, you’ll cap stealth duration. Running ET and Trickery, a subsequent Steal will replenish both the spent initiative AND spent endurance on capped stealth on engage. There is no waiting time because ET fills an entire dodge’s worth of endurance and Kelptomaniac with the cast time on HS an Bound will refund the full initiative spent on leaps.

In essence, what would normally cost 11 -> 8 initiative now only costs 8 -> 5 initiative and there are literally zero downsides Given the stealth duration as well, you’re looking to be at close to netting only around 1-2 initiative spent in total versus the 5-6 from double HS.

The problem is, that is not always the case since you cannot Steal whenever you want. In the case of Steal in cooldown, the wait time I’ve posted applies.

Quite frankly your argument is weak; real talk, most thieves in general are free lootbags because most thieves, especially these days with how forgiving Daredevil is, are just horrible players. I farmed them on D/D with no stunbreak or control, I farmed them on my ranger before the CDI when RF was still on a 3s cast time and the class was terrible, and I actively chase them on my reaper because they’re the easiest demographic to kill on average despite being a hard-counter to the profession.

The fact is, Bounders are easier target than Dashers, it’s not really up for argument. Dashers are not free lootbags, you have to work really hard to catch them.

At first you say you will never comprehend why anyone would ever run Bound, and then say that a given player is good enough to use it. Is the synergy not enough for you to understand? Or why I said why so many good thieves run it? Terissimo is a good thief, and runs Bound.

What I said is, why would anyone spend 50 endurance to go in stealth when you can easily accomplish the same thing with a single HS. Even watching Terissimo makes no sense to use Bound to go in stealth. It’s unnecessary sacrifice for nothing but just to gain stealth. Often time I watch Teri waiting for endurance to refill when his Initiative bar is barely used and could have used HS for practically the same result.

So many bad players follow what the good players use thinking that emulating them will get them far. Thus, you have a ton of godawful thieves who are free loot bags running Bound because a lot of the best players do, and then the in-betweeners either just being better and following along, or those who came to the conclusion that bound and adjusting their play style respectively is a very good dodge to run as well.

They’re both excellent dodges and both have their uses. As I said Bound only under-performs with OH dagger, but ANet doesn’t balance nor design around OH dagger for the thief.

You pretty much summed up my stance. Just because good players uses Bound doesn’t necessarily means it is the best dodge nor it make sense, even them has to deal with the consequences of that choice and it is quite obvious in their videos. Yes you can stack stealth quickly using Bound and HS, but it’s only worth it if you have Steal available and not trying to run away. If you don’t use Steal to replenish your resources, you’re stuck there waiting for them to regen.

Wow, 18K crit against 2600 armor? WTF is that?

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cecilia.5179:

Alatar.7364:

DeceiverX.8361:

Alatar.7364:

DeceiverX.8361:

Maybe I’m misunderstanding what’s being said here, but the Daredevil can do a ton of damage while dodging via Lotus and Bound.

Nobody uses Bounding Dodger unless he is out of mind. Lotus is the only exception, used only by Condi builds. Unhindered combatant is the only one for 90% of Dardevils

Wat.

I’d like to see your sources on that one lol.

My vast experience and time spent in sPvP/WvW is my source =D

I see a lot of thieves with bounding dodger in WvW. It is preferred for D/P since it is a leap finisher.

I never comprehend why would anyone using D/P waste 50 precious Endurance just to leap finish when Heartseeker is perfect for that role and it’s even more cheaper. Now if Bound is a “blast” finisher, then sure I can see its value, but as “leap” — it is a waste of resources. I also doubt that these Bounding D/P users are any good or at least baby-sat by a Druid because such glass-cannon build don’t last very long in WvW.

Because OOC stealthing via bound before engaging has a net-zero cost since Endurance Thief will refund the spent initiative anyways?

That didn’t made any sense. I think you meant; refund the spent “Endurance” anyway.

Assuming that is what you meant, let’s look at how much time it will take to regain those lost resources;

3 initiatives (HS) = 3s
50 Endurance (Bound) = 10s

That’s not a very good investment.

There are a lot of reasons to take bound, and a lot of absolutely excellent players swear by it (aforementioned, including Terissimo depending on context, Sin when in WvW, etc.). Equally so, do people prefer dash. Neither’s universally better than the other in many cases except for OH dagger builds (then bound is the worst unless running literally-terrible max-damage signet burst), and both work excellently on both D/P and Staff, since D/P gains stealth on Bound and staff negates most of the purpose of Dash since it removes immob with Deb Arc.

Teri is one of those Thieves who can get away with using Bound, but time and time again, a Bounder Thief in WvW typically a free loot bag.

Lettuce.2945:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Lettuce.2945:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cecilia.5179:

Alatar.7364:

DeceiverX.8361:

Alatar.7364:

DeceiverX.8361:

Maybe I’m misunderstanding what’s being said here, but the Daredevil can do a ton of damage while dodging via Lotus and Bound.

Nobody uses Bounding Dodger unless he is out of mind. Lotus is the only exception, used only by Condi builds. Unhindered combatant is the only one for 90% of Dardevils

Wat.

I’d like to see your sources on that one lol.

My vast experience and time spent in sPvP/WvW is my source =D

I see a lot of thieves with bounding dodger in WvW. It is preferred for D/P since it is a leap finisher.

I never comprehend why would anyone using D/P waste 50 precious Endurance just to leap finish when Heartseeker is perfect for that role and it’s even more cheaper. Now if Bound is a “blast” finisher, then sure I can see its value, but as “leap” — it is a waste of resources. I also doubt that these Bounding D/P users are any good or at least baby-sat by a Druid because such glass-cannon build don’t last very long in WvW.

I recommend you watch min scherzo then re-evaluate your thoughts on bound. That is all.

Right, the one who now favors Staff over D/P where Bound actually makes sense because of Vault. Anyone else you want to recommend?

Two things. One. He doesn’t spam vault. You actually should NOT use vault often since it can be easily interrupted. So don’t be one of those “staff thief just vaults spam qq’ers”. Please actually watch the videos before commenting.

lolz, when did I even imply that Vault is being spammed? Please actually read my post before commenting.

Two. He uses d/p as his second weaponset which again, if you actually watched the videos, he shows you how to use them and juke zergs.

Old news. It only look good on paper playing against baddies.

And sure, I can recommend other thieves. Havoc and anarchy, Kronos Xnm, reckless…they all have channels. Feel free to watch. My thief is featured in a couple duo videos with min. We use the same build. Sorry you’re just too stubborn?

No thank you, I’m fine watching Terissimo.

Lettuce.2945:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cecilia.5179:

Alatar.7364:

DeceiverX.8361:

Alatar.7364:

DeceiverX.8361:

Maybe I’m misunderstanding what’s being said here, but the Daredevil can do a ton of damage while dodging via Lotus and Bound.

Nobody uses Bounding Dodger unless he is out of mind. Lotus is the only exception, used only by Condi builds. Unhindered combatant is the only one for 90% of Dardevils

Wat.

I’d like to see your sources on that one lol.

My vast experience and time spent in sPvP/WvW is my source =D

I see a lot of thieves with bounding dodger in WvW. It is preferred for D/P since it is a leap finisher.

I never comprehend why would anyone using D/P waste 50 precious Endurance just to leap finish when Heartseeker is perfect for that role and it’s even more cheaper. Now if Bound is a “blast” finisher, then sure I can see its value, but as “leap” — it is a waste of resources. I also doubt that these Bounding D/P users are any good or at least baby-sat by a Druid because such glass-cannon build don’t last very long in WvW.

I recommend you watch min scherzo then re-evaluate your thoughts on bound. That is all.

Right, the one who now favors Staff over D/P where Bound actually makes sense because of Vault. Anyone else you want to recommend?