This is crazy. What kind of terrible game design makes a free, spammable ability be better DPS than a spender which takes out half our initiative bar.
~snip~
I totally agree with you but the Devs would disagree. This is their solution to our initiatives problem. They don’t want us to rely on using our initiative skills in order to keep up on DPS. The main complaint is the fact that Thief doesn’t have enough initiatives to even use every skill in the skill bar once. So instead of lowering the skill cost or increasing the Thief’s initiative pool (or both), they instead told us that Thief doesn’t need to use initiatives to maintain a high DPS because they’ve just increased the auto-attack damage output — which is a middle finger to the idea of lowering cost and/or increasing init pool. It’s never gonna happen because they think that they can play Thief better than us even though they’ve never shown a video of a Dev who actually plays a Thief regularly. Or maybe they’ve buffed the auto just so that they can play a Thief mindlessly (without thinking about other skills and possible combinations) instead of playing the profession the way we all play it.
However, if and when the Dev will ever agree with us on this, they will instead nerf Vault as their solution to the problem.
We’ll see.
Except we shouldn’t have to run condi evade gimmick builds in order to be effective in combat. The issue is we can’t just run normal builds and stand a chance in a fight, we as a class have to build specifically for each encounter or run a gimmick and be useless outside of the 1 thing the gimmick allows us to do.
And this is the problem.
Thief is supposed to be the spiritual successor to Cantha’s Assassin, SO…critical strikes is important. Critical strikes was super important to the ol’ sin. With our outgoing damage mitigated, we lose what we need in structured PvP. WvW, we can run builds that are (possibly) more normal and it be fine.
I disagree. It seems that you have not played an Interrupt Assasin, KD Assassin, and Deep Wound Assassin…no need for CS.
Impact Strike combo is not easy to land. in my experience in WvW, my target tend to dodge the uppercut after they get stunned. I also know this because I dodge on the uppercut when it’s used against me and I get out of it every time.
In my build I always have Scorpion Wire, which is my best friend in forcing a dodge from my target. Once I use ScorpWire and my target dodges, I know for a fact that they cannot dodge my Impact Strike. Here’s how I do it,
ScorpWire → wait for dodge → Impact Strike → wait for dodge → Steal (with daze) → Uppercut → FinBlow.
ScorpWire signals them that a combo is coming which I usually follow with Fist Flurry before I use the combo above. Waiting for dodge after ScorpWire is perfect because Impact Strike have a 300 range and dodge is 300 range. When timed correctly, you can connect Impact Strike as soon as they end their dodge, so practice is necessary to get this right.
The problem with balance in PvP is that the Dev’s are aiming for more action in PvP, thus the focus on dodge/evade as oppose to full stealth when it comes to Thief’s defensive skills. They can surely allow a node cap while in stealth, but that’s (not) a good PvP game to watch — it’s very passive and it’s boring.
So the challenge they are facing is how to make Thief viable at point defense and we already know the answer to that — Daredevil with staff. I can stay and defend a point and sometimes win a 1v1. At the same time, the Devs gets the action they need to promote the PvP matches to spectators.
Of course, I never accepted that Daredevil is anything related to the Thief profession, but it’s the only way to see a Thief in PvP actually defending a point. However, the bunker meta have obsoleted my build so yeah, no go unless you play decap and +1 using boring D/P.
(edited by Sir Vincent III.1286)
Sir Vincent
Trappers Respite has a 30 second cooldown. You aren’t going to use traps every 15 seconds with Withdraw, so I don’t see why not take HiS.
That’s true and I stand corrected. However Withdraw has far more better benefits than HiS.
The last few replies you posted nothing that contributed to the actual topic, and only tried to make him look stupid, were straight up bullying.
That’s your opinion. That conversation was already going off topic when a different build was insisted upon instead of staying within the context of what build is being complained about.
The replied that triggered all this is this;
Well… My build has traps and permanent stealth. Sounds like a permastealth trapper to me, even though it has Shadowstep.
If anything trying to make anyone look stupid is that reply. Even though a lot of replies has already pointed out that the build in question is killable, survivable, and ignorable. How to kill a perma-stealth? Bring an anti-stealth trap. The conversation was over then.
As for the topic, the build is killable that the stealth from the rune needs to be affected by Meld with Shadows.
I wrote a long post and forum failed me…sigh.
TLNR of it was: venoms should be like signets for conditions. The active should remain as is, with addition of bleed to Drake Venom and confusion to Devourer. The passive should be a 33% chance on hit to apply the major damage condition of each particular venom. I had a suggested arbitrary length of 2 seconds for the condition duration. Unlike signets, however, the passive should remain active and not go inactive for the duration of the cooldown.
To be honest, any improvements to venoms are welcome compared to what it is now.
I would also remove the Dagger Training trait as redundant with these changes. The cooldown adjustment discussed above would also be a reasonable way to improve the “pace” of fighting while using venoms.
Yeah, I’m not a fan of traits for a specific weapon. The trait should be generic enough that any kind of weapon will do. My idea for Dagger Training is to be replaced by Thief Training.
Thief Training – Attacks has 33% chance to apply the effect of a venom you have equipped (multiple equipped venom will be chosen randomly).
The proc chance can be tweaked for balance.
S/D just has too many delays; from the total initiative cost to its slow attack speed.
D/P has very few delays and it’s 4 second faster than S/D in terms of initiative pool (D/P has 16 total init skill vs. S/D’s 20 total init skills).
Looking at casting time, S/D has a bunch of casting time which lags it further behind D/P. S/D has a total casting time of 3sec while D/P has a total casting time of 1.5s, thanks to a couple of skills without casting time.
So the gap between these two sets is already big enough in terms of skill use frequency.
Now the animation delays, the pre-cast and after cast delays are plaguing S/D also. The set just became a very clunky set to use.
What needs to happen is to shave off some of these delays starting with Flanking Strike. This skill needs to be instant just as Shadowshot is instant. Instead of having a 360deg turn animation, the Thief will simply blurred out or something. The evade effect will simply continue for its current duration of 1/2s, just add a shadowy effect to show that the Thief still has the evade effect. Then, Larcenous Strike needs to also be an instant, reduced cost back to 1init, and would only steal a boon when striking from the flank or back. These changes will allow the weapon set the precision it needs to execute the skills successfully and it rewards players for positioning correctly. Which also bringing it up to par with Shadowshot in terms of effectiveness.
Other changes would require that CnD will have a shadowstep built in, casting time reduced to 1/4s, and cost reduced to 4 init. The damage and the vulnerability stacks can be nerfed for balance, since the important part is to make CnD useful and a reliable way to go in stealth.
Just start with those and let’s test them out.
I’m curious about your perspective, is it that you feel that venoms don’t do enough damage to justify taking them, or is it that you feel the venoms don’t cover sufficient diversity of condition types?
Taking a Venom to fill a utility slot is always a gamble. I could use the slot to take a more reliable skill like cleanse (Shadowstep) for example. So in order for the Venom have an appeal and be justified in replacing a cleanse, for example, it needs to deserve the slot.
It’s never worth it to take Ice Drake, a 4sec Chill on a 40sec CD is really bad. Relying on a shared Venom (using VA) in order for the Venom to be decent is just horrible. If Ice Drake applies bleed, the chill will be a good secondary effect rather than its only effect.
I like the zone-wide dynamic events with progression so the maps I like for those are;
- Harathi Hinterlands
- Silverwastes
- Tarir, the Forgotten City
But my favorite is the Silverwastes.
Venom should not require Venom Aura to be effective. The cooldown should be at 30s base and 24s with VA trait. This way it’s still usable without relying on VA.
The venoms also need some added effects.
Spider Venom could have Slow.
Ice Drake could have Bleeding.
Devourer could have Confusion.
Basilisk should have an internal damage effect like Pulmonary Impact after the stone effect breaks.
Bottom line, all venom should be able to deal damage somehow. Right now, having only 2 venoms that actually deals damage is pathetic.
Sir Vincent. Just let it go.
You are the one that is twisting his words and taking them out of context. Whats even worse is that you keep bringing this up over and over again even when hes trying to put an end to it. You really are acting like a bully at this point.
I read through the whole conversation, and never noticed him really contradicting himself. All i noticed was that you really didnt answer his question after he pointed out what flaws your advice had.
He actually never was asking how to not die to this build. He was asking for a reliable way to kill it. Do you honestly think that the build is balanced if the only way to reliably kill it is with a consumable that costs money and supplies?
That’s what he considered “reliable” I don’t believe the revealed trap is necessary.
What I’ve offered is a way to fight the perma-stealth. Using Soldier/Valk, I can withstand the traps and negates the conditions with Withdraw. I use Vault to leap to his black powder whenever it comes us. He has to rely on the leaps into BP to stay in stealth while his traps are on cooldown but my Vaults limits his chances to extend the stealth. Even if they wear Dire set, they’ll still take massive damage from Vault and auto-attacks. If I successfully fight him off, that’s a win, not a draw because I have turned the table around. Then he go about not calling it a fight…
I’ve also given an example that a well played Herald can kill the trapper build, yet he doesn’t think it to be reliable enough because he can bring Shadowstep, replacing Trip Wire. Then that’s no longer the trapper build that everyone is complaining about — he took it out of context first, I just went with it.
Here’s the context. The non-variant perma-stealth trapper build is weak and has no way to kill anyone unless you’re AFK. This build is also squishy against condition damage but slightly resistant against power because they wear Dire. This build uses Needle Trap and Trip Wire as a combo because Trip can interrupt cleanse and heals. Hide in Shadows is a horrible heal to use due to its 30s cooldown. Withdraw is the better choice where traps can be used every 15s instead of the long 30s CD of HiS. This build also opt for Sleight of Hand for interrupt and short Steal cooldown to trigger Hidden Thief instead of Bewildering Ambush. Now he changed a lot from this build just so he can complain that it’s unkillable.
If trying to debunk someone trying to divert from that context is considered “bullying” then I’ll just agree on everything he or anybody says and nobody will ever learn anything.
Im not even sure what to tell you anymore. You claim that Im constantly contradicting myself, even when Im not. You even quote two replies where Im saying that you “weren’t fighting the thief” in both of them, and you claim that Im contradicting myself. It’s just that you appearently cannot understand written words, or you somehow twist them in your head to mean things that they do not.
You have a very twisted definition of what “fighting” is. If someone is assaulting you and you are defending yourself, to you, that’s not a fight?
The problem here is that you cannot follow a conversation.
If you don’t want to be an easy prey, then wear a Soldier set for power build or Dire for condition build. This will ensure that you won’t die without a fight even though it may be hopeless, at least you had a fighting chance.
And wearing solider/dire gear won’t give you a fighting chance, if you don’t have a way to reveal the thief. It will simply buy you more time to get away.
I have 4 Thieves and my main wears Soldier/Valk gear and I never fall victim to trapper Thieves. One use of Withdraw can both remove Immob and evade the knockdown, plus remove a condition on evade (Absolution) and via Trickster. By the time their trap is ready for reuse, my Withdraw is out of cool down. I use Staff and tactically use Vault and eventually, they go away. There’s your fighting chance.
You aren’t fighting the thief, you are simply buying yourself more time. (In this case indefinitely.)
So I have a fighting chance in an encounter that isn’t a fight in the first place? What kind of a messed up line of thinking is that?
I kindly ask you to read everything I have said again, and try to understand what the words mean. I understand if it’s too difficult for you, and I forgive you.
lol @ “I forgive you”, ad hom much?
When someone is running away from their assaulter, that’s not a fight. But when someone stood their ground in an act of self-defense, that’s a fight. Just because you don’t understand the difference and you’re redefining what a “fight” is, doesn’t make it so.
As for you not trying to insult me. Why do you make comments like “You sure about that? Do you have a short-term memory loss?” and “So much flip flapping, man.”, if you aren’t trying to insult?
Stating a fact is not an insult. What’s insulting is that you not remember what you’ve posted.
- First you ask a question forgetting that you’ve already answered it about using trap as a reliable counter.
- Second, you can’t even understand what a fight is even though I’ve even stated that gearing Soldier/Dire is giving someone a fighting chance…meaning, so that they can fight back and not die from the first trap rotation.
- Third, you mention that a counter shouldn’t be relying on consumables, yet you complain that your condition damage in PvP is low without food — which is a consumable. Consumables exists for a reason.
Now you’re denying everything event hough everyone can read what you’ve posted.
Also you pointed out that Im not providing advice, which is true, because im the one ASKING for advice. Im asking you how to KILL this build. You failed to answer it properly. And now you are trying to insult me.
Advice has been given and you’ve even provided a reliable counter using the trap consumable. What more do you want?
Also, Im very sure you know that the build is capable of killing other players. Why do you think there are so many people playing it?
I know that my variant build is capable of killing other players…your build, I’m not so sure. I can use a different rune and still kill people. Many players use this build not because they can kill people, that’s a wrong notion, it’s because they can perma-stealth, which can also be accomplished without the trapper rune.
And since when did changing one utility skill make the entire build different?
The anger behind the [erma-stealth trapper build revolves around Needle trap and Trip wire. Removing Trip wire so that you can have a cleanse is not the build that everyone is complaining about. The anger stems from the fact that after being immobilized, trip wire interrupts their cleanse, so they sit they helplessly taking damage.
So just because you can perma-stealth, uses trap and trapper runes, doesn’t make your build the build that everyone is complaining about. Yours is a weaker variant.
You are nothing but a bully at this point, desperately trying to find some way to make me look stupid. Im done talking to you. And if you really aren’t looking for a fight, I suggest that you do the same.
How am I a bully? Calling me names doesn’t make it so. Just like calling a fight not a fight doesn’t make it so.
I guess I can live with that only because it’s a very good match to a Valk gear so I won’t need to use Soldier anymore.
I use it in fractals at least. Anywhere else, not so much since Staff’s auto is practically the same as Pistol Whip in terms of damage with no initiative cost and no rooting.
I would suggest as a starting point by making a gem-to-gold/gold-to-gem conversion program since the JSON for that is very simple. Example;
{"result":{"gem_to_gold":204100,gold_to_gem
That’s the current result right now for a 100 gem exchange. The result for gem_to_gold for example is in gold, silver, copper format, so that would be;
100gem = 20g 41s 00c
Then to purchase 100 gem using gold;
32g 40s 00c = 100gem
I made a program before that allows the user to enter the gem amount and will return the exchange rate for the user to see. One caveat is, the result from the JSON is not in realtime, but that’s besides the point.
i7 Processor is unnecessary to run any games, especially GW2. i5 is more than enough to run any of my games. You can also save $100 by choosing i5 (MSI GL72 6QD-001) which is way more than double the required minimum spec for GW2
And I honestly don’t believe that you can kill a trapper thief by using Vault on them. I think you are forgetting that the thief doesn’t need to spend all their dodges for caltrops. They can actually save some of them so they can use the dodges to actually dodge attacks.
Then they’re not doing anything to me if they choose to save their dodges. Either way, my point being is that with my Soldier/Valk gear, I had a fighting chance when you said there’s none. You’re going off to a different line of conversation instead of following the one you’ve started.
If you don’t want to be an easy prey, then wear a Soldier set for power build or Dire for condition build. This will ensure that you won’t die without a fight even though it may be hopeless, at least you had a fighting chance.
And wearing solider/dire gear won’t give you a fighting chance, if you don’t have a way to reveal the thief. It will simply buy you more time to get away.
I have 4 Thieves and my main wears Soldier/Valk gear and I never fall victim to trapper Thieves. One use of Withdraw can both remove Immob and evade the knockdown, plus remove a condition on evade (Absolution) and via Trickster. By the time their trap is ready for reuse, my Withdraw is out of cool down. I use Staff and tactically use Vault and eventually, they go away. There’s your fighting chance.
Do you follow now?
Okay fine, one last reply.
There is a difference between fighting and not dying.
You aren’t putting the trapper thief if any real danger, so even if you consider it a fight, from the trapper thieves perspective, you aren’t a threat at all. What kind of a fight is that?
If that is the case, then from my perspective the trapper is not a threat either. So I guess we agree that it wasn’t a fight to begin with. Which makes your statement false.
And wearing solider/dire gear won’t give you a fighting chance...
And if you change your mind (again) that it was a fight after all, then my argument stands unrefuted.
The trapper thief most likely has 20k hp and 3k armor. Even if you landed a vault on them with your soldier/valkyrie gear, it wouldn’t do enough damage to win the fight.
How is it not a win if I didn’t lose?
I’m on the defense when fighting a perma-stealth trapper, thus if the attacker failed to break my defenses, they lose, I win.
As I said before. You aren’t fighting the thief, you are simply buying yourself more time. (In this case indefinitely.)
Meh. If you’re playing in WvW, you should have all the time in the world, otherwise, you’re in a wrong place. I can dance with the Thief all day. Vault cost is only 5 initiatives which replenish in 5 seconds. Withdraw recharges every 15 seconds. Traps’ fastest cooldown is 24 seconds. That’s a lot of down time for the trapper. That’s hardly buying myself time.
All this time I have been asking for a way to KILL the trapper thief reliably. I know you can survive against it, but how do you KILL it reliably? And before someone comes in and says that “We have given you a ton of ways to kill it already!”, I have already pointed out in the previous comments why the ways you have given me aren’t reliable ways to kill the thief.
Didn’t you already answered that question yourself?
…using a consumable that costs money and 10 supply…
So why are you still insisting on the answer?
So far there has been only 1 reliable way to kill it, which was a condi bomb combined with a reveal, and even that won’t be really reliable if the thief is carrying Shadowstep, which I proved that they can have.
lol at the self-contradiction. For Grenth’s sake, make up your mind.
Are you getting frustrated? It almost seems like you are trying to insult me, by focusing on me contradicting myself, instead of even trying to provide meaningful advice. I never said that you were fighting the thief. I was saying that you indeed weren’t fighting the thief, you were simply not dying.
You sure about that? Do you have a short-term memory loss?
As I said before. You aren’t fighting the thief, you are simply buying yourself more time.
I’m not trying to insult, just wanting you to stop contradicting yourself so that we can at least take you seriously. It seems like every post you make is a contradiction to your last post.
Besides, what “meaningful advice” have you offered?
Also, you don’t necessarily win, if you don’t lose. Have you ever heard of a draw?
No such thing. If you attack me and I defended myself well, you lost because my defense won. It’s not a draw.
A draw only happens in a fair duel — like fencing.
From that reply, it seems that you are agreeing with me that the only “reliable” way to kill the thief is with the Stealth Disruptor Trap, which costs money and 10 supply. I believe that there should not be a build that can only be reliably defeated by using a consumable.
I was never talking about “reliable” ways, you’re the one demanding it, so no, I never agree with you, just pointing out that you already answered that question yourself. And if you think that “there should not be a build that can only be reliably defeated by using a consumable”, then why did you say this?
I couldn’t use food or my actual gear. My condition damage stat is about 800 lower than it would be in WvW.
So much flip flapping, man.
I suggest that you stop replying to this thread, if you can’t come up with any more actual advice.
So using Soldier/Valk, Withdraw, and Vault aren’t advice?
What “actual” advice have you posted?
The problem here is that the thief doesn’t get revealed, if they play well. And they CAN run stunbreaks/condicleanse, if they wan’t to, even if it does take their already low damage even lower.
You only matter if you’re a threat. Low damage is not a threat and not worth killing. My trapper variant is a threat and I don’t perma-stealth, even though I can, just to mock my target and give them a false sense of victory. lol @ stun-break and cleanse…you may be perma-stealth, but you’re not a trapper.
The problem with the build is that it can still do damage to kill some things, while being invisible,
That’s not true — proven by your build.
…and running tanky stats. I just don’t think that an invisible thing should be doing damage that is enough to kill another player, no matter what build the player is running.
Meh. I’ve shown you a build that your trapper build cannot kill. You’re simply cherry picking a scenario where a bad player, uplevel player, and/or berseker geared player died to a this troll build.
Edit: If I were to change dancing dagger, I guess I would make it a flip over skill as lots of people have suggested. Throw the dagger for 1-2 initiative, and it bounces to each target. Something cool that I think could be added is to have each target marked, and then the next skill is a similar skill to unrelenting assault, but faster and less damage. You would go and slice each target marked once for about 4k. I think it would add a really unique factor to thief and D/D, and it would still be in theme with the name “Dancing Dagger” and thief.
The problem with this is, it puts the Thief in a risky position with little to no reward for both D/D and P/D, but extremely overpower for S/D (DD→IS→DD2→SR).
And I honestly don’t believe that you can kill a trapper thief by using Vault on them. I think you are forgetting that the thief doesn’t need to spend all their dodges for caltrops. They can actually save some of them so they can use the dodges to actually dodge attacks.
Then they’re not doing anything to me if they choose to save their dodges. Either way, my point being is that with my Soldier/Valk gear, I had a fighting chance when you said there’s none. You’re going off to a different line of conversation instead of following the one you’ve started.
If you don’t want to be an easy prey, then wear a Soldier set for power build or Dire for condition build. This will ensure that you won’t die without a fight even though it may be hopeless, at least you had a fighting chance.
And wearing solider/dire gear won’t give you a fighting chance, if you don’t have a way to reveal the thief. It will simply buy you more time to get away.
I have 4 Thieves and my main wears Soldier/Valk gear and I never fall victim to trapper Thieves. One use of Withdraw can both remove Immob and evade the knockdown, plus remove a condition on evade (Absolution) and via Trickster. By the time their trap is ready for reuse, my Withdraw is out of cool down. I use Staff and tactically use Vault and eventually, they go away. There’s your fighting chance.
Do you follow now?
Okay fine, one last reply.
There is a difference between fighting and not dying.
You aren’t putting the trapper thief if any real danger, so even if you consider it a fight, from the trapper thieves perspective, you aren’t a threat at all. What kind of a fight is that?
If that is the case, then from my perspective the trapper is not a threat either. So I guess we agree that it wasn’t a fight to begin with. Which makes your statement false.
And wearing solider/dire gear won’t give you a fighting chance...
And if you change your mind (again) that it was a fight after all, then my argument stands unrefuted.
The trapper thief most likely has 20k hp and 3k armor. Even if you landed a vault on them with your soldier/valkyrie gear, it wouldn’t do enough damage to win the fight.
How is it not a win if I didn’t lose?
I’m on the defense when fighting a perma-stealth trapper, thus if the attacker failed to break my defenses, they lose, I win.
As I said before. You aren’t fighting the thief, you are simply buying yourself more time. (In this case indefinitely.)
Meh. If you’re playing in WvW, you should have all the time in the world, otherwise, you’re in a wrong place. I can dance with the Thief all day. Vault cost is only 5 initiatives which replenish in 5 seconds. Withdraw recharges every 15 seconds. Traps’ fastest cooldown is 24 seconds. That’s a lot of down time for the trapper. That’s hardly buying myself time.
All this time I have been asking for a way to KILL the trapper thief reliably. I know you can survive against it, but how do you KILL it reliably? And before someone comes in and says that “We have given you a ton of ways to kill it already!”, I have already pointed out in the previous comments why the ways you have given me aren’t reliable ways to kill the thief.
Didn’t you already answered that question yourself?
…using a consumable that costs money and 10 supply…
So why are you still insisting on the answer?
So far there has been only 1 reliable way to kill it, which was a condi bomb combined with a reveal, and even that won’t be really reliable if the thief is carrying Shadowstep, which I proved that they can have.
lol at the self-contradiction. For Grenth’s sake, make up your mind.
The problem with the weapon set right now is their total Initiative cost. Let’s take your example, S/D, P/D, and D/D;
S/D has a total of 20 initiative cost.
P/D has a total of 17 initiative cost.
D/D has a total of 16 initiative cost.
Thiefs only have 12-15 initiatives depending on your traits — plus they don’t have full initiatives bar on weapon swap, which further limits the Thief’s ability to use any of their weapon skill.
Therefore making each skill more powerful will not fix the problem because if the cost of using a skill is too expensive, even though it’s more powerful, it will always be lacking.
Please let there be constructive discussion on the changes
How do you find the above changes to buffing dd?
Unnecessary. The problem of the set is not addressed with these buffs. What CnD needs is a built in shadowstep, reduced cast time and 54 initiative cost. CnD in both D/D and P/D is useless without a gap closer, which heavily relies on other skills like Shadowstep and Steal. Giving it a built in shadowstep will alleviate the need for a gap closer. To balance CnD for S/D and the reduced cost, they can reduce the number of vulnerability stack. Dancing Dagger doesn’t even need to be changed.
How do you find the changes to stealth?
Unnecessary. It is fine as is.
Would you play a glassy dd with these changes in mind?
No. These changes doesn’t fix the problem, it only creates more.
Are there any tweaks to what you’ve read you would make?
No, since we see the problem from completely different perspectives.
(edited by Sir Vincent III.1286)
And I honestly don’t believe that you can kill a trapper thief by using Vault on them. I think you are forgetting that the thief doesn’t need to spend all their dodges for caltrops. They can actually save some of them so they can use the dodges to actually dodge attacks.
Then they’re not doing anything to me if they choose to save their dodges. Either way, my point being is that with my Soldier/Valk gear, I had a fighting chance when you said there’s none. You’re going off to a different line of conversation instead of following the one you’ve started.
If you don’t want to be an easy prey, then wear a Soldier set for power build or Dire for condition build. This will ensure that you won’t die without a fight even though it may be hopeless, at least you had a fighting chance.
And wearing solider/dire gear won’t give you a fighting chance, if you don’t have a way to reveal the thief. It will simply buy you more time to get away.
I have 4 Thieves and my main wears Soldier/Valk gear and I never fall victim to trapper Thieves. One use of Withdraw can both remove Immob and evade the knockdown, plus remove a condition on evade (Absolution) and via Trickster. By the time their trap is ready for reuse, my Withdraw is out of cool down. I use Staff and tactically use Vault and eventually, they go away. There’s your fighting chance.
Do you follow now?
The weapons had been where they have left them, they are not lost, the devs are.
if i got upset every time i posted a build on here and no one like it i wonder what would happen LOL?.
You’d end up in the QQ guild…I heard there’s a pool party 24/7 there. Tears gotta go somewhere.
And most classes have some for of leap or teleport.
Even if they do, how will you kill the thief in 3 seconds?
That teleport will be on atleast a 30 second cooldown afterwards, unless you are a thief, so you won’t be able to do it again in a while.
Withdraw + Vault…see comments above.
Josa it sounds like you lack any real knowledge on how to counter this troll build a 6 second reveal on a 20 sec CD will kill this on a build that has it pre built in can kill it easily for one example on top of being able to disrupt the stealth without wasting a CD or any consumable, just because you have played a lot of classes and builds doesn’t mean you know how to play them well, I have kill a few of these thieves on my D/P build as well as my S/D build its not hard and I have no access to forcing reveal besides standing in BP
Just how do you kill it exactly? You could post a video or something, since you seem to be able to do it pretty reliably, and it’s not hard to find someone that plays this build.
It could actually help alot of people if you posted a video, since theres quite alot of people complaining about this build.
As far as im aware, even a regular thief won’t die to a 6 second reveal all the time, if they are good enough. Now add in the vitality and toughness from the dire gear. How are you supposed to kill it?
I run a D/P Trapper, in fact I ran it last night. Killed a mesmer 3 times (yes she’s angry for dying and was hunting me down), a Ranger and a Thief. The one that shut me down was a Condi Herald, you know why? This build has no anti-condition other than embrace, but once denied stealth, even with Dire set, the build is toast. So the notion that this build is unkillable is non-factual.
A lot of people make the same mistake when facing a trapper is that they are not paying attention to the kind of conditions they have. Using skills or attacking while confused is usually what kills them. Also roaming alone with a Berserker gear will kill you no matter what build the other person have.
If you don’t want to be an easy prey, then wear a Soldier set for power build or Dire for condition build. This will ensure that you won’t die without a fight even though it may be hopeless, at least you had a fighting chance.
I can run the build just fine, while carrying atleast Shadowstep for some condi cleanses.
Then that’s not a perma-stealth trapper build, but a variant of it. The full build requires Needle, Trip and Shadow to get a large stack of might and longer stealth time. Switching any of these skills no longer qualify the build as perma-stealth trapper.
Well… My build has traps and permanent stealth. Sounds like a permastealth trapper to me, even though it has Shadowstep.
Im only running Needle Trap and Shadow Trap. Actually im just going to take a picture… Maybe even a video to show that it does indeed stealth forever.
I can use Scavenger rune, Shadow Refuge plus Shadow trap but that won’t make the build the perma-stealth trapper that everyone is complaining about.
Josa it sounds like you lack any real knowledge on how to counter this troll build a 6 second reveal on a 20 sec CD will kill this on a build that has it pre built in can kill it easily for one example on top of being able to disrupt the stealth without wasting a CD or any consumable, just because you have played a lot of classes and builds doesn’t mean you know how to play them well, I have kill a few of these thieves on my D/P build as well as my S/D build its not hard and I have no access to forcing reveal besides standing in BP
Just how do you kill it exactly? You could post a video or something, since you seem to be able to do it pretty reliably, and it’s not hard to find someone that plays this build.
It could actually help alot of people if you posted a video, since theres quite alot of people complaining about this build.
As far as im aware, even a regular thief won’t die to a 6 second reveal all the time, if they are good enough. Now add in the vitality and toughness from the dire gear. How are you supposed to kill it?
I run a D/P Trapper, in fact I ran it last night. Killed a mesmer 3 times (yes she’s angry for dying and was hunting me down), a Ranger and a Thief. The one that shut me down was a Condi Herald, you know why? This build has no anti-condition other than embrace, but once denied stealth, even with Dire set, the build is toast. So the notion that this build is unkillable is non-factual.
A lot of people make the same mistake when facing a trapper is that they are not paying attention to the kind of conditions they have. Using skills or attacking while confused is usually what kills them. Also roaming alone with a Berserker gear will kill you no matter what build the other person have.
If you don’t want to be an easy prey, then wear a Soldier set for power build or Dire for condition build. This will ensure that you won’t die without a fight even though it may be hopeless, at least you had a fighting chance.
I can run the build just fine, while carrying atleast Shadowstep for some condi cleanses.
Then that’s not a perma-stealth trapper build, but a variant of it. The full build requires Needle, Trip and Shadow to get a large stack of might and longer stealth time. Switching any of these skills no longer qualify the build as perma-stealth trapper.
I run a variant of this using P/P and 2 traps since I won’t need all three and I can stack might with Unload, instead I bring a venom. Even then, I can’t afford to switch something out for a condition cleanse.
What you’re suggesting is a weak version of the build relying on a 50sec cooldown skill to remove conditions with a very low stealth uptime.
And wearing solider/dire gear won’t give you a fighting chance, if you don’t have a way to reveal the thief. It will simply buy you more time to get away.
I have 4 Thieves and my main wears Soldier/Valk gear and I never fall victim to trapper Thieves. One use of Withdraw can both remove Immob and evade the knockdown, plus remove a condition on evade (Absolution) and via Trickster. By the time their trap is ready for reuse, my Withdraw is out of cool down. I use Staff and tactically use Vault and eventually, they go away. There’s your fighting chance.
Josa it sounds like you lack any real knowledge on how to counter this troll build a 6 second reveal on a 20 sec CD will kill this on a build that has it pre built in can kill it easily for one example on top of being able to disrupt the stealth without wasting a CD or any consumable, just because you have played a lot of classes and builds doesn’t mean you know how to play them well, I have kill a few of these thieves on my D/P build as well as my S/D build its not hard and I have no access to forcing reveal besides standing in BP
Just how do you kill it exactly? You could post a video or something, since you seem to be able to do it pretty reliably, and it’s not hard to find someone that plays this build.
It could actually help alot of people if you posted a video, since theres quite alot of people complaining about this build.
As far as im aware, even a regular thief won’t die to a 6 second reveal all the time, if they are good enough. Now add in the vitality and toughness from the dire gear. How are you supposed to kill it?
I run a D/P Trapper, in fact I ran it last night. Killed a mesmer 3 times (yes she’s angry for dying and was hunting me down), a Ranger and a Thief. The one that shut me down was a Condi Herald, you know why? This build has no anti-condition other than embrace, but once denied stealth, even with Dire set, the build is toast. So the notion that this build is unkillable is non-factual.
A lot of people make the same mistake when facing a trapper is that they are not paying attention to the kind of conditions they have. Using skills or attacking while confused is usually what kills them. Also roaming alone with a Berserker gear will kill you no matter what build the other person have.
If you don’t want to be an easy prey, then wear a Soldier set for power build or Dire for condition build. This will ensure that you won’t die without a fight even though it may be hopeless, at least you had a fighting chance.
I strongly agree that rune of the trapper is bugged — it should be affected by Meld with Shadows — 2s stealth is just too short.
You can’t really claim a build to be yours. Sooner or later someone else will come up with the same build given the limited diversity the Thief have. If you really like the build that much, then make it your signature. No one will edit it then.
EDIT: Curious, what build did you post?
I don’t get what this rant is all about. An MMO will have dungeons, raids, PvP, and challenging contents. I am a casual player myself and I like GW2 based on the fact that when I log in, at any time of the day, I can play with others without forming a group — that never changed.
I frequent Silverwastes and Tarir (some WvW) and there are players there whenever I log in. Do I care for the rest of the GW2 like raiding, fractals, and sPvP? No. I found what I like and that’s what I’m doing when I log in.
Whenever I feel like I need a break from all the high-end content, I go back to Queensdale or other zone and see if I can assist other players. Sometimes I just go back to some hero points in Verdant and see if other players would need a hand.
Even if it takes ArenaNet 100yrs to develop anything I would like, it wouldn’t matter to me because that would be their loss, not mine. I don’t pay monthly fee to play GW2 and they practically giving the game away. So if they want me to spend money, they need to make things I like — like cool weapon skins and hairstyles. I care less for armor skins since I already like what I got.
From the business point of view, ArenaNet has to do what they need to do to put money in their pockets so it’s up to them to figure out what makes players buy with their hard earned cash. In my case, if I get a good looking skin from a drop, I won’t even hesitate to buy gems for transmute charge. If they can make an outfit that allows me to hide a certain part of it, I would definitely buy it. I used to buy the whole set of armor and used probably 2-3 pieces from it. Since they’ve stopped that, no more cashflow for them coming from me.
Direction-wise, the game is a mess, but for a casual player like me, there’s always things to do. The one thing they need to learn to accept is that Living Story doesn’t work with the limited resources they have now. It will require making the whole Tyria evolve with the time. I like the “flashback” touch they’ve made for the Lion’s Arch cinematics, but that would have to be the case for all the story scene for the Zhaitan story arc including the whole Orr zone. I mean, Living Story-wise, Thrahearn is dead yet his Wyld Hunt didn’t come into fruition in restoring Orr. That’s the problem with Living Story and they should just stick with expansions where each expansion happened within the timeline.
Should the game have taken a different direction and stayed true to their Manifesto 1.0? Sure they could have, but we’re here now.
IMO, the Silverwastes and Tarir are great for casual players and they should focus more on making zones just like that, however, this is just my opinion.
1) Metabattle builds are rated, so it doesn’t really matter who edits them since the ratings will show if it is a good build or not.
2) A member of a guild is not a representative of the skill level of the whole guild since the members of a guild. like Teef for example. ranges from new players to very good players.
1) At low level, it doesn’t really matter what weapon you choose and the only advantage of shortbow is its ability to deal AoE damage. Even with a sword main-hand (no off-hand, no swapping), you can get to level 80 just fine. Shortbow only really useful at end game where you have Ascended gears and a fine-tuned build. You won’t see its usefulness at low level.
2) PvE – anything really. Fractals, it depends — D/P is less effective against Dredge for example and you’re limited to Spear and Harpoon gun in Aquatics — I just bring S/P and pistol whip all the way. Raid, I have no idea, I don’t like that part of the game so I don’t bother.
3) In open would, you would want condition remover and anti-CC, not necessarily stun break. Other than that, you can bring anything really as long as you know what you’re doing. If you’re going for World Completion Achievements, it’s all about shortbow, stealth and speed boost in most parts.
There are only 2 things lacking from shortbow; 1) Projectile Speed and 2) Projectile Range
Shortbow projectile used to home to the target thus its speed is non-issue and it used to have 1200 range. Removing the homing and reducing the range without compensation just made shortbow lacking in many circumstances, but it is still the best skirmishing weapon set the Thief can have only because P/P is still horrible.
I dont get mind why Trapper’s Respite on Withdraw use triggering at final place…
The skill heals you at the end of the animation and the trait triggers on heal despite on what the trait says that should trigger on use. If the heal happens at the front, then the skill will be a bad evade skill, since it either heal first then dodge or dodge first then heal. The game treats Withdraw as if it’s two skills (dodge skill + heal skill) in one and if you think about it that way, it would make sense.
Okay, I am genuinely confused now. It is not an issue with my timing of steal + other skill as I swapped to d/p to play some pvp and found that shadow shot is missing stationary targets quite frequently.
I also noticed that backstab + steal was missing too but not skills like heartseeker + steal.
Video: https://youtu.be/iJnVa2k6Ivk
That’s almost like the same with CnD+Steal for me. It will teleport, steal an item, but no damage even though I go on stealth.
Thanks guys, those answers helped a lot.
About the Mug, I know that it cannot crit but if it is considered as an attack, then it can consume the proc without critting — I wasn’t sure.
About the Bound, so if I Bound twice and both hit the target, does the second Bound crits? I believe it should, but I’m not sure.
Thanks again.
I don’t own this rune but I’m curious about several things. The rune set #6 states that the next attack is a crit after a dodge while in combat. So I have several questions;
- Does this rune’s will make my Bound damage crit?
- Or the next attack after Bound even though bound hit?
- Does it trigger on Mug?
- Does it apply to the whole skill (i.e. Pistol Whip, Fist Flurry) critting each hit or just the first hit?
- Does it trigger on Whirling Axe (stolen item)?
- Does it apply to Impact Strike/Uppercut/Finishing Blow or just Impact Strike?
- Does it trigger on Throw Items?
TL;DR
- What is considered an “attack”?
You’re out of practice, or lagging. I’m doing it in-game right now with no issues.
It doesn’t happen all the time, that’s the frustrating part. I have no idea what the conditions are and I cannot recreate the problem, it seems so random…and no it’s not lag because for everything else the timing is smooth then Steal will have a hiccup all of a sudden.
What I’m noticing is, there’s seems to be an algorithm or some function that figures out whether a Steal will produce a stolen item or not. Before they meddled with Steal, if the target is within range, even if the Thief failed to teleport next to the target due to terrain obstruction, a stolen item is produced. They “fixed” that but left an elusive bug.
Ever since they “fixed” Steal to require a target, then later on revert it back, it was never been the same skill. Something is going on that I can’t explain, but yes, pre-casting can fail and I have no idea why. It happened to me many times on moving targets even though they are well inside my casting range.
And I find quite a bit, too many if you ask me, of traits, utilities and weapon skills weak or just unusable.
There’s definitely a lot of those and ArenaNet had the opportunity to give Thief a different build path instead of another DPS path when they announced the Elite Traits. It could’ve been a better set than Daredevil (I still don’t see the correlation between a Thief and a Daredevil, just as Guardian and Dragon Hunter doesn’t make any sense), but here we are. As a player, there’s always a way to find something fun to do, however, this doesn’t mean that I’m happy with the Thief as a whole.
Nice story. You have shown how little you understand how that bunker build works. You throw a lot of assumptions that favors your outcome rather than taking what is based on reality. Your mobility means nothing because you’ll have to get close if you want to take that bunker down, which will be your undoing. You’ll be loaded with conditions as soon as you get in range then it’s gg from there. And no, you can’t kite a Reaper shroud because when this build goes Reaper it means it will finish you off. You have no way to apply pressure because you need to get close to do that. If only you are dealing condition damage, unfortunately, you’re not.
But regardless the point is whether power thief is better than condi thief in these situations. How is your condi thief going to go about taking down a competent necro?
No power build can penetrate that 3k armor and the only way to bypass that is to hit them using condition damage. Even your own power build from your videos, which relies on surprise attacks and burst, will not have any chance at going toe to toe with this build — you don’t even have condition removal in your build. Once you take Chill, you’re SoL.
The very strength of a bunker is their ability to apply massive condition damage while having a lot of staying power due to high health pool and armor — or a lot of healing capabilities.
How do I win with a bunker? Here’s the recent iteration of my condition build.
So you can call BS all you want, but it’s fairly obvious that the BS is not coming from my direction.
As much as I love keeping up this thread, it’s become clear you can’t be reasoned with. I gave a scenario of how the fight ideally plays out and my mindset for the approach and mapped out how I’d play the match-up. And that’s suddenly not what you wanted?
How am I being loaded by conditions? He had marks and that’s it for range conditions and I’ve got three dodges and interrupts to hurt him from range. Along with a huge number of blinds to mess him up when I engage at close range. I’m not saying its always going to be a win but honestly I’m fairly confident that even in a duel setting it wouldn’t be nearly as difficult as you make it out to be.
And chill making me SoL? What? Chill and cripple removed on dodge and you think chill is an issue? Do you even play thief?
1.6k isn’t a lot of condition damage and the utilities you gave the necromancer gives it no way to condi spike me assuming I don’t make a big mistake.
3 conditions removed on shadowstep return, chill removal, and torment removal on heal should be just about fine. Again not saying you can mindlessly use it but it’s doable definitely.
And no I didn’t ask how you win with a bunker I asked how you are going to kill the necro on your condi thief. And the build you posted won’t have nearly enough damage to down the necro build you linked especially if he hits his condi transfers. It will be the two of your fighting forever.
This is honestly my last reply. We disagree, I respect your opinion that condition is the only way, even though from my experience it’s not true. Keep playing thief your way and I’ll keep playing it my way. This has taken the thread very far from what op asked.
If that is your position then you have no grounds to call BS. Good day.
We’re not talking about “any builds” we’re talking about bunkers. Typically a bunker will opt to a condition based build where a Thief will die sooner than they are able to take the bunker down.
Here’s an example. How do you kill this build with your power build without dying first.
So you made a build that is never seen to prove a point? Most necros won’t take those utilities but OK.
Regardless with d/p I’d focus on exploiting the mobility advantage thieves have over necros. Necro is plagued with horrible access to stability and that build isn’t using shouts for stability either allowing for interrupts to disrupt the rotation. Save steal for stealing stability in shroud for another interrupt and land the long duration fears once they leave shroud. Kite shroud timing interrupts to land on their ds #2 if possible, don’t stand inside ds #4 and evade the #5. Kite out the plague form because who the kitten takes that and expects a thief to stand there. Try and bait out the fear wall and then move away while hitting interrupts. Keep distance until wall is down then reopen with shadowshot for damage and blind. I don’t think the fight would be even close to impossible, more likely a 50-50 match-up at worst with more likely 75-25 due to which interrupts you land.
Nice story. You have shown how little you understand how that bunker build works. You throw a lot of assumptions that favors your outcome rather than taking what is based on reality. Your mobility means nothing because you’ll have to get close if you want to take that bunker down, which will be your undoing. You’ll be loaded with conditions as soon as you get in range then it’s gg from there. And no, you can’t kite a Reaper shroud because when this build goes Reaper it means it will finish you off. You have no way to apply pressure because you need to get close to do that. If only you are dealing condition damage, unfortunately, you’re not.
But regardless the point is whether power thief is better than condi thief in these situations. How is your condi thief going to go about taking down a competent necro?
No power build can penetrate that 3k armor and the only way to bypass that is to hit them using condition damage. Even your own power build from your videos, which relies on surprise attacks and burst, will not have any chance at going toe to toe with this build — you don’t even have condition removal in your build. Once you take Chill, you’re SoL.
The very strength of a bunker is their ability to apply massive condition damage while having a lot of staying power due to high health pool and armor — or a lot of healing capabilities.
How do I win with a bunker? Here’s the recent iteration of my condition build.
So you can call BS all you want, but it’s fairly obvious that the BS is not coming from my direction.
snip
Complain all you want about bunker builds they aren’t unkillable. There are dozens of videos of thieves playing power builds killing every type of build out there. Can you be mindless and just spam vault into them? Probably not.
A lot of people point to scrapper as a bruiser bunker, you can kill it as power thief if you play well. Honestly that should be the class (besides dh which is a counter for other reasons) that gives thieves the most trouble, yet there are lots of videos of it being done. I can post my own videos of duels against scrapper if you want, but I prefer to not post videos of my own outside the threads I make for them.
And I give the advice to walk away from any build you don’t get enjoyment out of fighting. If you’re trying to improve your play it’s not the best call but if you’re trying to get more enjoyment out of the game it’s fine to.
You’re welcome to continue hiding behind the concept that condi thief is your necessary evil that allows for you to kill these bunker builds. And I’m free to call bs on it and say you can kill any build as power thief currently with the possible exception of a good condi warrior, but that trucks pretty much every build.
Would you care to give examples of what builds you struggle to fight?
We’re not talking about “any builds” we’re talking about bunkers. Typically a bunker will opt to a condition based build where a Thief will die sooner than they are able to take the bunker down.
Here’s an example. How do you kill this build with your power build without dying first.
You’ll never kill anyone with a power build other than “uplevels” and the “baddys”. You’re best solution is to go full condition damage.
As long as ArenaNet favors bunker builds and nerfing power builds, you’ll just have to find an effective way to bypass all the tanky stats — that is using condition damage built around poison.
Holy kitten is this false. Regardless what people seem to believe a well played power build is still the most effective build for thief. From my experience power thief can kill any class or spec though clearly some are more difficult than others.
Ah, yes, it’s as effective as a wet noodle trying to stab a brick wall. Difficult? Try impossible.
I’m curious to know what bunker build you find killable by a Thief’s power build. Please, enlighten us with what is true.
As for trapper rangers that are power it’s not a fun match-up since they have that stealth. It sounds counter intuitive, but you want to instantly set off their traps when they use them for stealth since ranger traps reveal them. And since they aren’t condi their damage won’t be that high on the traps. Besides that the usual counter to ranger with well timed interrupts should work fine. Or you can just walk away from them since they’re probably not worth the time.
Why walk away if a power build is as effective as you believe it to be?
You call my post “false” yet you have nothing to show for it.
You’ll never kill anyone with a power build other than “uplevels” and the “baddys”. You’re best solution is to go full condition damage.
As long as ArenaNet favors bunker builds and nerfing power builds, you’ll just have to find an effective way to bypass all the tanky stats — that is using condition damage built around poison.
Answers like “because is fun” is the source of all negative energy.
There has been feasible suggestion about how to improve the Thief’s traps in the past and those are the one anybody can say as “brainstorming” and “theoryfracting” — for instance, a triggered trap leaves a combo field, for example, Needle Trap leaving a poison field — that is a feasible suggestion that is both fun and non-hindrance…and no, that suggestion was not mine. My trap suggestion is completely on a whole different level.
Why reset a trap if it is easier and simpler to drop a new one without the casting time nor other silly requirements, like “hostile entities”?
Seriously, what’s the advantage of making this functionality a reality? All I see is more ways to make the Thief’s like even more miserable.
Because it’s fun. Why else do you do anything in a game? If this ain’t your thing don’t do it.
Each trap you cast can trigger twice without disrupting regular cooldowns. I know everyone doesn’t have the same idea of fun but this fits the theme of a thief and I like traps. Also I’ve always been jealous of ranger and dragonhunter traps. This simple mechanic would let me steal them. Area control, unpredictability, max efficiency, blah blah, blah …
me: “All I see is more ways to make the Thief’s (life) even more miserable.”
you: “Because it’s fun. Why else do you do anything in a game?”
me: /facepalm
Why reset a trap if it is easier and simpler to drop a new one without the casting time nor other silly requirements, like “hostile entities”?
Seriously, what’s the advantage of making this functionality a reality? All I see is more ways to make the Thief’s like even more miserable.
Hard to Catch does that.
By pressing CTRL+T locks and pings your target. You can then press TAB to switch to other targets, then you can simply press T to switch back to the locked target.
This doesn’t work for you?
He’s saying that when there is AI in front of your target, the AI blocks the way to the target and you port to the AI instead. Basically body tanking for them.
Then I don’t think that will change anytime soon since that combat mechanic is there by design. This is also the reason why positioning is very important. Having to ignore the minions as part of the collision detection diminishes the purpose of having minions in the first place.
I think the better solution is to make them less tanky so there’s an actual risk in having those AI minions around. (Note: I’m talking about minions and not pets, since the Ranger pet is part of the profession and should remain tanky)
But the problem is they made them more tanky to prevent them from being useless in the first place. Honestly this isnt too much of a problem, if you play DP for a while overtime youll get used to avoiding the body blocks. If the minion is the type that is low to the ground but somehow still blocks your path, jump while pressing 3
Body blocking is kind of a good thing, adds a level of skill to combat
Some minions are just too tanky and given their number, they shouldn’t be.
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