Guild Wars 2

yup, work always gets in the way…

Tues, 23rd, 7pm EST is not good for me — still at work, long hours. Good luck to everyone else.

Zodryn.4216:

This is how it works:

• Base movement speed is 300
• In combat movement speed is 200
• Movement speed is capped at 400

This means that, out of combat, anything past 33% is useless, since you hit the cap of 400 (300*1.33). In combat, 50% extra will give you 200*1.5=300 movement speed, while the signet gives 250 and swiftness gives 266. This is why superspeed is so good, because it allows you to hit the 400 cap even in combat (or mitigate slowing effects like cripple and chill).

^this. It’s ArenaNet and their stupid convoluted and confusing tooltip wordings.

btw, 33% is swiftness speed and 100% is superspeed.

WvW S/D power+control build

IS->AA->AA->CnD->IR

rinse and repeat (85% success rate)

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Yes condition damage ignores tougness/armor but Condition damage does NOT get any better than it is against any armor type.

The Condition damage against light armor is the same as against heavy and is the same against medium. It still less damage in a given period of time than is power and Condition still needs time to build up those stacks before they start ticking hard.

You’re making it sound like it’s a bad thing. The fact is, unlike power-build, condi-build’s damage stays the same against heavy while power-build’s damage diminishes. On top of that, power-build has to actively attacking while condi-build can simply kite or stealth. Actively attacking, as I’ve already mentioned, makes power-build open for counter play while condi-build don’t have to worry about counter play.

The best counter play against power-build is weakness and cripple, and condi-build has a lot of those type of condition to keep a power-build at bay. The fact is, even with a cleanse, one can only cleanse so much and in term of a condi-Thief, conditions are really easy to reapply.

That is why Condition needs to last longer and why that tougness and vitality so important.

There are two types of conditions; 1) conditions that deals damage and 2) conditions that hinders. You don’t need duration for conditions that deals damage since it is way better to focus on potency to increase the DPS. Conditions like cripple and chill would need duration, but this is not that important. Potency generates pressure not duration. Investing in duration over potency will result to a lackluster condition damage output. This is why you think that it “needs time to build up those stacks before they start ticking hard” because you think that it needs duration instead of potency. A high potency condition doesn’t need time to build up.

To give you an idea, with 1500 condition damage Carrion + Undead, 2x DB with Spider Venom + Steal will tick for 2k per second for 8-10sec applied within 2sec time frame. Uncleansed, that’s enough to kill any profession that is not a bunker Necro. And ever since the buff on vulnerability, condi-build just gotten even cheesier.

You can take a lightly armored class down in one quick attack with Power. You can not do that with Condition. If you kill that person quickly then you are not worried about your own armor. That person is dead.

This is why a power thief will generally win against a condition thief. That unless the power thief decides he can do without cleanses.

Even with cleanse, you cannot possible cleanse all conditions applied to you. Two things that breaks power-build, weakness and cripple. How do you intend to kill your target if you’re often weakened and crippled?

Yes you can do that on a light armor target, but once the target bunker up, power-builds are starting to have a hard time. Condi-build doesn’t really matter what the target is wearing since it will deal the same amount of damage. The only real mitigation against condition damage is Regen — good luck getting that on your own as a power-Thief.

There just as much “cheese” in power builds.

I disagree. Power-build sacrifices survivability and they are often exposed to counter play in order to deal damage. It’s perfectly balance. Condi-build neither sacrifice survivability nor it has to be exposed to counter play to deal damage — that’s cheesy.

People are just overly fascinated with big numbers so when they see a 15k backstab too prone to patting themselves on the back claiming it a function of skill when it a function of the build traits and armor chosen.Yes it might be a bit harder with keystrokes to get that backstab off but even a low skilled thief can do it.

Sure if they don’t shatter like glass before that happens.

Ignoring Condition cleanses just to load up on stuff that makes a power build hit harder is the problem of the thief that goes that course and not of the one that uses conditions.

I don’t know why the point that “condi-build is tanky that’s why it’s cheesy” keep on getting lost in the discussion. It doesn’t really matter if the target can cleanse every condition I apply, as long they can’t deal damage because they are too busy cleansing it will win it out in favor of condi-build, thus the problem lies on the condi-build.

The goal of a power-build who sacrifice survivability is to be capable of taking down any target before they die in the process. If the power-build can’t do that because the target is too tanky, then there is no value in the sacrifices. For a condi-build can deal that much damage, they should not be allowed to be too tanky.

Just look at the amulets available for power-build in order for them to deal a lot of damage. They can take Berserker which sacrifices both vitality and toughness. Now look at the condition amulets, they either have vitality or toughness. Undead + Rabid will give you 3k armor and 16k condition damage — that’s just ridiculous.

If we are talking WvW i have two builds which all but keep conditions off me while outputing excellent damage. This includes your weakness and crippled. These are cleansed as i attack. Cleansing a condition does not preclude an attack.

One , paradoxically is a condition build. the other is a power build. Acro is key here including some of the very traits you dismissed as useless in a previous post.

As example with GI shamans build condition d/d using acro I have high regen uptime (near 290 per tick). I have easy access to heals to keep my health above 75 percent. This keeps weakness/vulnerability/confusion/slow off me almost entirely. PR kicks in every 20 seconds for torment/burning/poison/bleeding. I have escapists which removes on evade the evades of which inflict damage even as they cleanse those conditions. DIRE is not used. . Most is shamans or apothecary. This i find much more survivable then dire

A condition thief is just as prone to conditions as is a power thief and as has already been acknowledged toughness from his dire does nothing to defend him against conditions.

S/d I use escapists with the Acro line . I keep PR but drop GI as this build has no ready heal sources ( If i took IP and assissins reward I would trait GI) Escapists works wonderfully as does infiltrators for cleanses. Since it predicated on a lot of weapon swaps a cleasning sigil used. It has a whole lot of condition cleanses.

Cripple? No real effect with UC in play which also kills chills and Immobs. I used to use don’t stop as well but found it overkill so went upper hand. More regen and I get more INI that INI keeps lead attacks damage nearer 15 percent and coupled with quikpockets allows a whole lot of in a row infiltrators for rapid cleanses.

UC and Lotus cancels each other for the most part. I do acknowledge that condi-build is weak against condi-build…but that’s not what we’re talking about here.

Than what ARE we talking about. I can assure you a power build thief is NOT weak against a condition build thief unless they refuse to trait for condition cleanses.

You’re bringing your argument against another in response to mine. I’m not talking about weaknesses or who can beat who. My point is about the trade offs and what makes condi-build cheesy. So what if condi-build dies in some circumstances against another build, it’s still doesn’t change the perception that it is a cheesy build since it can build damage and survivability without sacrifices.

If at any time that a condi-build ever have to sacrifice damage for survivability or survivability for damage, I’ll be convinced that it’s not as cheesy as I believed it to be. But so far, nobody can justify why an Undead + Carrion (PvE Dire) even exists.

I think I’ve made my point quite clear and the only responses I’m getting is about something totally unrelated.

MadRabbit.3179:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

IMO, if you pick CS, you need to go Acro and if you pick DA, you need to go Trickery — those pairs just works well together — which means that CS is not a staple.

Not challenging the opinion, but genuinely curious; what is the basis for that? Like, looking at Acro and CS, I don’t see the direct synergy.

Like the damage potential from CS comes largely from fury and Trickery, at least, gives you more access to fury with some of it’s trait choices, giving some degree of direct synergy that I just don’t see between CS and Acro.

The reason I consider CS to be staple is because it’s a trait line where every trait gives you some degree of value in PvE, regardless of weapon choice. Other trait lines have trait choices that depending on your weapon become the best of bad options.

CS needs survivability that Trickery cannot provide. CS can access regen and heal from Acro without requiring to go in stealth that SA requires. Trickery is an offensive trait line, thus having CS and Trick will leave you very vulnerable. Trick works well with DA because Mug provides a lot of heal. CS’ Invigorating precision, while it gives decent heal, it severely gimps your DPS — just look at what you’re sacrificing in the GM slot to get that heal — so CS has to look for heal from other trait line and Acro fits that bill — SA is counter productive due to stealth. With Acro you can spec for Assasin’s Reward or the improved Upper Hand for more access to heal and regen, plus a rapid regen of endurance.

CS can apply Fury on its own thanks to Unrelenting Strikes and No Quarter will simply keep it on, so you don’t need it from Trick. The use of Acro will also give the build better chance to trigger Driven Fortitude from DrD due to high Vigor uptime which makes a CS/Acro/DrD a well rounded build.

I’ve tried CS/Trick/DrD and always ended up dropping CS for DA or Trick for Acro.

MadRabbit.3179:

I think CS and DrD are pretty staple for a PvE build, but Acro, DA and Trickery are all equally competitive third picks.

The PvE build for thiefs in metabattle is based off DA/CS/DrD but that focuses entirely on damage at the expense of a lot of survivability and no condi clear. Unless you are speed clearing dungeons or fractals with an organized team that makes up for those weaknesses, it’s not suited for most casual PvE content or joining public groups in LFG. DA is also kind of a hard pick for Staff, because no one of the master traits are exceptional picks for a PvE staff build.

It ends up being kind of a trade off. If you go Acro, you get a lot more mobility, evasion and stun breakers at the expense of damage. If you go Trickery, you get more CC for break bars and substantial damage increase that works with Staff AAs, but penalizes you for using your hard hitting initiative spending abilities.

I ran Acro for awhile and liked it a lot, but I ended up changing it up for Trickery for a build that focused on shredding break bars and damage. Main downside is the lack of swiftness.

The only thing I will say about Trickery is you take it and you want to run, at least, mid tier fractals, taking it to buff up your steal with boons is somewhat pointless. The mistlock stability that removes boons on dodge punishes daredevils heavility to begin with and it effectively renders those traits impotent.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAWVn8lCVmiFmCGOBkmildCbeB+ArgbBgazBybJEFuCA

IMO, if you pick CS, you need to go Acro and if you pick DA, you need to go Trickery — those pairs just works well together — which means that CS is not a staple.

Sukrin.1280:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You don’t need DrD in PvE however it has the best AoE weapon (the staff) so it’s something that you may want to have. That’s really up to your build and playstyle if DrD fits flawlessly.

In my build, CS/Acro/DrD, I used S/D + P/P on single target fights (boss) and D/D + S/B on trash mobs — I used to carry Staff for the trash mobs, but the animation of the staff skills really bugs me. Other than the Staff AA, the rest of the skills’ animation looks awkward, specially Vault. So my choice not to take Staff is subjective — objectively, it has the best AoE damage and two skills with evade. Those two evades works well with Driven and Escapist, so if you choose to not take the Staff, choose a weapon set with evade, otherwise you won’t benefit much from DrD.

The main reason I take DrD is Unhindered Combatant and access to the Physical Skills like Fist Flurry and Bandit’s Defense.

It’s great to finally see someone else using those 3 spec lines together. I know Acro line isn’t great for dps, but PW with Upper Hand and Bounding Dodger makes for a potent combo to get more than the 3 PW’s in before you run out of Ini.

Just curious though, why do you choose UC over BD? I find BD really good with boss fights to stay at the flanks of the boss and just Bound into PW and repeat for the dps boost.

It’s mainly about swiftness and the damage reduction. I’m already doing a lot of damage with my weapon that another boost to damage is just overkill. Also UC is better at repositioning since it has father travel path especially against larger targets.

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Yes condition damage ignores tougness/armor but Condition damage does NOT get any better than it is against any armor type.

The Condition damage against light armor is the same as against heavy and is the same against medium. It still less damage in a given period of time than is power and Condition still needs time to build up those stacks before they start ticking hard.

You’re making it sound like it’s a bad thing. The fact is, unlike power-build, condi-build’s damage stays the same against heavy while power-build’s damage diminishes. On top of that, power-build has to actively attacking while condi-build can simply kite or stealth. Actively attacking, as I’ve already mentioned, makes power-build open for counter play while condi-build don’t have to worry about counter play.

The best counter play against power-build is weakness and cripple, and condi-build has a lot of those type of condition to keep a power-build at bay. The fact is, even with a cleanse, one can only cleanse so much and in term of a condi-Thief, conditions are really easy to reapply.

That is why Condition needs to last longer and why that tougness and vitality so important.

There are two types of conditions; 1) conditions that deals damage and 2) conditions that hinders. You don’t need duration for conditions that deals damage since it is way better to focus on potency to increase the DPS. Conditions like cripple and chill would need duration, but this is not that important. Potency generates pressure not duration. Investing in duration over potency will result to a lackluster condition damage output. This is why you think that it “needs time to build up those stacks before they start ticking hard” because you think that it needs duration instead of potency. A high potency condition doesn’t need time to build up.

To give you an idea, with 1500 condition damage Carrion + Undead, 2x DB with Spider Venom + Steal will tick for 2k per second for 8-10sec applied within 2sec time frame. Uncleansed, that’s enough to kill any profession that is not a bunker Necro. And ever since the buff on vulnerability, condi-build just gotten even cheesier.

You can take a lightly armored class down in one quick attack with Power. You can not do that with Condition. If you kill that person quickly then you are not worried about your own armor. That person is dead.

This is why a power thief will generally win against a condition thief. That unless the power thief decides he can do without cleanses.

Even with cleanse, you cannot possible cleanse all conditions applied to you. Two things that breaks power-build, weakness and cripple. How do you intend to kill your target if you’re often weakened and crippled?

Yes you can do that on a light armor target, but once the target bunker up, power-builds are starting to have a hard time. Condi-build doesn’t really matter what the target is wearing since it will deal the same amount of damage. The only real mitigation against condition damage is Regen — good luck getting that on your own as a power-Thief.

There just as much “cheese” in power builds.

I disagree. Power-build sacrifices survivability and they are often exposed to counter play in order to deal damage. It’s perfectly balance. Condi-build neither sacrifice survivability nor it has to be exposed to counter play to deal damage — that’s cheesy.

People are just overly fascinated with big numbers so when they see a 15k backstab too prone to patting themselves on the back claiming it a function of skill when it a function of the build traits and armor chosen.Yes it might be a bit harder with keystrokes to get that backstab off but even a low skilled thief can do it.

Sure if they don’t shatter like glass before that happens.

Ignoring Condition cleanses just to load up on stuff that makes a power build hit harder is the problem of the thief that goes that course and not of the one that uses conditions.

I don’t know why the point that “condi-build is tanky that’s why it’s cheesy” keep on getting lost in the discussion. It doesn’t really matter if the target can cleanse every condition I apply, as long they can’t deal damage because they are too busy cleansing it will win it out in favor of condi-build, thus the problem lies on the condi-build.

The goal of a power-build who sacrifice survivability is to be capable of taking down any target before they die in the process. If the power-build can’t do that because the target is too tanky, then there is no value in the sacrifices. For a condi-build can deal that much damage, they should not be allowed to be too tanky.

Just look at the amulets available for power-build in order for them to deal a lot of damage. They can take Berserker which sacrifices both vitality and toughness. Now look at the condition amulets, they either have vitality or toughness. Undead + Rabid will give you 3k armor and 16k condition damage — that’s just ridiculous.

If we are talking WvW i have two builds which all but keep conditions off me while outputing excellent damage. This includes your weakness and crippled. These are cleansed as i attack. Cleansing a condition does not preclude an attack.

One , paradoxically is a condition build. the other is a power build. Acro is key here including some of the very traits you dismissed as useless in a previous post.

As example with GI shamans build condition d/d using acro I have high regen uptime (near 290 per tick). I have easy access to heals to keep my health above 75 percent. This keeps weakness/vulnerability/confusion/slow off me almost entirely. PR kicks in every 20 seconds for torment/burning/poison/bleeding. I have escapists which removes on evade the evades of which inflict damage even as they cleanse those conditions. DIRE is not used. . Most is shamans or apothecary. This i find much more survivable then dire

A condition thief is just as prone to conditions as is a power thief and as has already been acknowledged toughness from his dire does nothing to defend him against conditions.

S/d I use escapists with the Acro line . I keep PR but drop GI as this build has no ready heal sources ( If i took IP and assissins reward I would trait GI) Escapists works wonderfully as does infiltrators for cleanses. Since it predicated on a lot of weapon swaps a cleasning sigil used. It has a whole lot of condition cleanses.

Cripple? No real effect with UC in play which also kills chills and Immobs. I used to use don’t stop as well but found it overkill so went upper hand. More regen and I get more INI that INI keeps lead attacks damage nearer 15 percent and coupled with quikpockets allows a whole lot of in a row infiltrators for rapid cleanses.

UC and Lotus cancels each other for the most part. I do acknowledge that condi-build is weak against condi-build…but that’s not what we’re talking about here.

Lithril Ashwalker.6230:

Leeching venoms proc with venomous aura and allow our allies to sap life, but why cant we apply pulmonary impact or torment with impacting disruption and pressure striking if an ally interrupts an enemy with OUR venom?

is this a bug?

Leeching venom is directly modifying the venom, ID and PS does not.

babazhook.6805:

Yes condition damage ignores tougness/armor but Condition damage does NOT get any better than it is against any armor type.

The Condition damage against light armor is the same as against heavy and is the same against medium. It still less damage in a given period of time than is power and Condition still needs time to build up those stacks before they start ticking hard.

You’re making it sound like it’s a bad thing. The fact is, unlike power-build, condi-build’s damage stays the same against heavy while power-build’s damage diminishes. On top of that, power-build has to actively attacking while condi-build can simply kite or stealth. Actively attacking, as I’ve already mentioned, makes power-build open for counter play while condi-build don’t have to worry about counter play.

The best counter play against power-build is weakness and cripple, and condi-build has a lot of those type of condition to keep a power-build at bay. The fact is, even with a cleanse, one can only cleanse so much and in term of a condi-Thief, conditions are really easy to reapply.

That is why Condition needs to last longer and why that tougness and vitality so important.

There are two types of conditions; 1) conditions that deals damage and 2) conditions that hinders. You don’t need duration for conditions that deals damage since it is way better to focus on potency to increase the DPS. Conditions like cripple and chill would need duration, but this is not that important. Potency generates pressure not duration. Investing in duration over potency will result to a lackluster condition damage output. This is why you think that it “needs time to build up those stacks before they start ticking hard” because you think that it needs duration instead of potency. A high potency condition doesn’t need time to build up.

To give you an idea, with 1500 condition damage Carrion + Undead, 2x DB with Spider Venom + Steal will tick for 2k per second for 8-10sec applied within 2sec time frame. Uncleansed, that’s enough to kill any profession that is not a bunker Necro. And ever since the buff on vulnerability, condi-build just gotten even cheesier.

You can take a lightly armored class down in one quick attack with Power. You can not do that with Condition. If you kill that person quickly then you are not worried about your own armor. That person is dead.

This is why a power thief will generally win against a condition thief. That unless the power thief decides he can do without cleanses.

Even with cleanse, you cannot possible cleanse all conditions applied to you. Two things that breaks power-build, weakness and cripple. How do you intend to kill your target if you’re often weakened and crippled?

Yes you can do that on a light armor target, but once the target bunker up, power-builds are starting to have a hard time. Condi-build doesn’t really matter what the target is wearing since it will deal the same amount of damage. The only real mitigation against condition damage is Regen — good luck getting that on your own as a power-Thief.

There just as much “cheese” in power builds.

I disagree. Power-build sacrifices survivability and they are often exposed to counter play in order to deal damage. It’s perfectly balance. Condi-build neither sacrifice survivability nor it has to be exposed to counter play to deal damage — that’s cheesy.

People are just overly fascinated with big numbers so when they see a 15k backstab too prone to patting themselves on the back claiming it a function of skill when it a function of the build traits and armor chosen.Yes it might be a bit harder with keystrokes to get that backstab off but even a low skilled thief can do it.

Sure if they don’t shatter like glass before that happens.

Ignoring Condition cleanses just to load up on stuff that makes a power build hit harder is the problem of the thief that goes that course and not of the one that uses conditions.

I don’t know why the point that “condi-build is tanky that’s why it’s cheesy” keep on getting lost in the discussion. It doesn’t really matter if the target can cleanse every condition I apply, as long they can’t deal damage because they are too busy cleansing it will win it out in favor of condi-build, thus the problem lies on the condi-build.

The goal of a power-build who sacrifice survivability is to be capable of taking down any target before they die in the process. If the power-build can’t do that because the target is too tanky, then there is no value in the sacrifices. For a condi-build can deal that much damage, they should not be allowed to be too tanky.

Just look at the amulets available for power-build in order for them to deal a lot of damage. They can take Berserker which sacrifices both vitality and toughness. Now look at the condition amulets, they either have vitality or toughness. Undead + Rabid will give you 3k armor and 16k condition damage — that’s just ridiculous.

babazhook.6805:

Better yet put on trappers runes, trait one trap and take SA with hidden thief.

That one. The only useful trap is Ambush.

I guess it won’t matter much if both participants consent on the gear difference. I just thought that it would be more interesting to watch when neither participant have a handicap.

If nobody mind the gear difference, I’ll keep my Ascended then.

By the way, to keep it fair, I think all participants should be limited to Exotic gears since I know first hand how much difference the Ascended gear provides.

The rules already ban the meta build so IMO that should be enough.

saerni.2584:

I’m talking about trailblazer armor vs dire armor. Two weapons of trailblazer is worth it. Not more.

Are you calling for carrion armor to have more condition damage? That seems fair if you discount that carrion already gets a boost in the form of direct damage. Carrion works for hybrid builds, such as with sinister armor, with varying degrees of critical chance, vitality, or toughness. Hybrid armor can counter high condi clear and high armor builds because it does both damage types. That is the trade off.

Before diamond skin was changed, for example, a pure condition build could not reduce the tempest/elementalist below 90%. Fundamentally impossible. Now that’s changed but it shows how minimal the direct damage is for a pure condi build. Hybrid gain’s all the benefits of condi power AND gets greater direct damage. There’s your trade off.

I don’t find the need to spec a glass build on my power-thief build. Similarly, I don’t build a glass build on condi.

I still reject your argument that thief A (power) does the same DPS as thief B (condi) but thief B gets more defense. I think thief A (power) gets more burst DPS than thief B (condi), which means that thief B can either (1) add in more dps by going sinister, (2) add in more defense by going dire, (3) middle ground with other hybrid armor. So either thief B gets more defense due to lower DPS or equivalent DPS/armor/defense depending on armor/stat choice. I have yet to see actual substantiated proof that a thief hitting a heavily armored (3k+) target cannot still out DPS a condi build with no hybrid damage.

You’re not acknowledging the fact that power-build’s damage are mitigated by armor while condition damage ignores armor. You can reject whatever you want but the facts remain the facts.

You falsely assume that by not going Dire that the damage output is low, however I’ve showed you that the only difference between Dire and Carrion is toughness — which is what you sacrifice for power.

Now you’re falsely assuming that going Sinister will suddenly increase your condition damage output when in fact the amount of condition damage remains the same.

Carrior gets 1500 condition damage. Dire gets 1500 condition damage. Sinister gets 1500 condition damage. The condition damage never change even though Dire gets more toughness.

What you’re doing is that you’re comparing condition damage total damage to a hybrid…that’s not the case here. Condi-build vs Condi-build, not condi-build vs hybrid.

Liewec.2896:

for any build with offhand pistol it gives you access to stealth on demand through Black powder and Bound
this gives P/P thieves some nice survival

In theory, maybe, in reality, no. Bound is the worst you can give to P/P but UC fits with the build beautifully. If I want to go stealth, I’d use Trapper runes — it’s more reliable than trying to leap to BP using Bound.

Agemnon.4608:

Dagger storm is a noob trap and should be ignored as a skill.

Couldn’t agree more.

IMO, a better implementation of Dagger Storm is to make it an instant without duration. Then deals 2100 damage (8 daggers dealing 263 dmg each) divided upto 5 target within range. Plus cripple and bleed stacks. Gain 1 stack of stability for each target hit by Dagger Storm.

Basically an Elite Skill version of Lotus Training.

saerni.2584:

Almost all applications of conditions from stealth take a thief out of stealth and add revealed debuff so that is already the case.

That is so far from the truth.

In the PvP context all the super tanky armor has been removed as I understand it to promote more fast paced play. This doesn’t mean that a meta in which people can tank longer is inherently bad, it just means that for the purposes of e-sports and pacing for individual matches they wanted to increase the risk for everyone. Therefore why dire and now soldiers are not available in those matches.

Thief is the most limited HP class. Full dire produces HP of around 20k. Many classes get far more than that and need not used vitality granting armor. The same is true on the armor side as well. Thief bunker is, the least, or one of the least, “bunker” of the bunker builds, which is perhaps why I am less concerned with it.

Also, as an example, the HoT armor set that adds condition duration in exchange for less vitality/toughness actually REDUCES my overall damage. I have two of those for weapons, because that optimizes my damage — but a full set that reduces my hp/armor literally reduces my damage. I’m not wedded to the idea that I need maximum tank and damage…but the alternatives either require I take stats that don’t matter to me (like precision) or get less damage than Dire offers.

1500 condition damage is mostly the sweet spot in most condi-builds. So a typical PvP condi-build of Undead Rune + Carrion + Bursting Sigil = 2100 armor, 20k HP, 1500 Condi dmg. The only thing that this build is sacrificing is condition duration which is not a big deal. A typical Dire build will grant more toughness but maintaining the same level of 1500 condition damage. So your belief that you get less damage than Dire is not factual.

DeceiverX.8361:

That’s more or less a fundamental issue with stealth and DoT effects and how our application methods are all pretty safe, rather than conditions as a whole.

Yup a survivability issue, that’s why it’s cheesy.

If the best options for a thief to apply conditions involved self-inflicting the Revealed debuff (or not evading while dealing damage), people playing such builds would need to much more carefully evaluate when and when not to stack the conditions to begin with.

Please, no more Revealed. All they need to do is get rid of Dire sets and we’re good. The hiding in stealth is not a big issue, it’s the tankiness.

Confusion as it is currently designed is a busted mechanic; for even the act of cleansing it deals damage, which makes no sense.

Thus it is “confusion”…lol, ok that’s bad.

Ezaster.2498:

So, I am running this build – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoaVn0MBNmilOBGOB8PhFqiyLE+gSoLBCgDYu6/+xH-TpBFABLcIAa4IAE/+DAcCAEvMABPAAA

and my question is… what’s wrong with this build exactly?

First of, you’re missing either DA or CS as a source of damage. So in times that you’re being outplayed and not landing any interrupts, you’re not dealing any significant damage. In other words, this build is a one-trick-pony, you need a contingency plan in case Plan-A didn’t work.

1 – Bounding Dodger – why should I use Unhindered over it? I mean, I think that Bounding gives a lot better finisher and also increased the dmg/gives the “stomp” dmg, while Unhindered gives me only swiftness, reduced dmg taken, erases mov. imparing effects and gives u (useless I think) finisher. Bounding gives a lot more backstab potential and higher initiation dmg (standard combo – pistol 5, begin dodge > Steal, 1 [u get stealth for backstab]), also with the acrobatics traits I use (I will proceed to it later) also u gain some swiftness.

Nothing wrong picking this over UC since it really depends on your playstyle. In most cases, UC is better since the most annoying part of playing as a Thief is Immobilize. Since you’re not spec-ing for Don’t Stop, immobilize is your kryptonite.

2 – Acrobatics – why would I take Deadly Arts instead? I don’t find (standard) double stolen usage more useful/ some dmg increase compared to stun break, a lot more endurance, 2s evasion (or condi cleanse every 20secs) and some bonus initiative (like really a lot if u keep in mind that u have as DD huge amound of dodges + you get huge amound of endurence regen with acrobatics).

IMO, keep Acro and swap Trick to CS, but that’s just me. In my build, I don’t see any benefit running DA at all. With your build, you can convert all that Precision to Crit Damage by taking Practiced Tolerance, then more crit damage via No Quarter.

3 – Distracting daggers – over ??? – Let me explain – after HoT I really don’t know which spell should I use as my 3rd. Some people use Impairing Daggers but it’s not very useful if you will keep in mind, that you will face so much condi cleanse other classes have (let’s be honest, it doesnt work for druids at all), the same goes with mesmers (not mentioning the invuln. this class has now) and eles. I find distracting daggers nice if you really know when to use it. It will increase enemy’s cooldowns and hit them with pulmonary impact which is both uncleanseable and unblockable. Some people also use Fist Flurry. but let’s face it. Noone will stand in one place and get that whole dmg it can make.

That’s fine as is if you can land your interrupts. I personally have no problem with this. However, as I’ve mentioned, you need a plan-B and IMO, taking CS over Trick would be a good fit for your build.

Of course, there would be many other possibility that can improve your build, but that is my opinion on this matter.

Doggie.3184:

Kinda meh.

I’d rather have Signet of Deadly Corruption back from GW1 as our Elite Signet.

Passive can either raise condition damage/duration, or transfer conditions periodically.
Active would be a 1200 Range direct damage super nuke with damage scaling off how many conditions they have on them and leaves a field of radiation that ghoulifies them.

I loved that Signet.

I can back this. There are times that I’m looking for something to pop the conditions as a way to counter a cleanse.

I wouldn’t mind something like this;
- Passive: Conditions last 2sec longer.
- Active: Remove all conditions from target. Deal xx damage per condition (not per stack) removed.

That would be an awesome Elite.

martin.1653:

It’s simple;
Passive: 1 second longer stealth
Active: enter stealth for 6 seconds. CD 40 seconds.

Thief really needs a simple button that makes it enter stealth and nothing more. And no, shadow refuge, CnD, HS, steal etc. are not that.
Stealth like this should be baseline F3, but I guess elite would be acceptable as well.

Steal used to have Hidden Thief as base line and you can see this in their Thief Profession preview prior to release. Somewhere before release, they’ve decided to make the stealth part a trait instead and give Steal shadowstep ability. So I really doubt that ArenaNet is willing to give Thief a stealth button even if it comes as an Elite skill.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

saerni.2584:

No, that is exactly what you mean when you say “the condi-build never have to sacrifice survivability to gain the level of damage they can put out” — meaning that, for the survivability, you think there is “too much damage.”

No, you’re jumping to a wrong conclusion.

Let me put it this way.
- Power-build – 1,000 DPS – sacrifices toughness and utility to counter the armor damage mitigation
- Condi-build – 1,000 DPS – tanky, no sacrifices

Not fully true. Condition builds (aside from a few outliers) will typically deal lower damage than their power counterparts and will offer corresponding durability increases, or in the cases of dealing similar or slightly better damage, will be done on builds like Sinister and Viper’s gear which offer no defensive stats.

That said, conditions should be balanced around being negated by toughness or should consequently never deal optimal damage, which I think the latter was the original intention, but people cried so ANet felt a need to oblige.

A more appropriate analogy is something (anecdotal/simplified for the sake of argument) like:

Berserker = 2000 outgoing DPS per defensive unit, 2000 incoming DPS per offensive unit (1 : 1)
Carrion = 1500 outgoing DPS per defensive unit, 1500 incoming DPS per offensive unit (1 : 1)
Dire = (1200 outgoing DPS per defensive unit, 800 incoming DPS per offensive unit (1.5 : 1)

Against “evened” builds/stat distributions (PvE monsters). Against glass, berserker does better by a small margin. Against tank-built players, conditions are superior by a large margin.

For this reason Dire gear isn’t/wasn’t included for sPvP; it’s objectively too strong for its outgoing vs incoming damage ratio compared to others. That’s more or less where the problems truly lie, and removal of Dire would resolve a lot of complaints and concerns for WvW to say the least.

That’s addressing the wrong problem though. The problem is not that condi-build deals a lot of damage (my example was hypothetical meant to focus on the sacrifices than the damage) rather it is a really tanky build. IMO, the best approach is to lower the condi-build’s survivability for the more damage they make.

Compare to power-build, I can load-up conditions then hide in stealth while my conditions ticks for a lot of damage without counter play. Power-build cannot hide in stealth because doing so they won’t be doing any damage, thus they are exposed to counter plays. Even if the condi-build don’t hide in stealth, they can kite all day and not worry about their survivability because they are already tanky to begin with. All it takes is a healthy stacks of Confusion to kill a power-build which can also be used as a defensive to stop power-builds from attacking.

I’ve been an advocate from the very beginning of GW2 that in order to fix both D/D and P/P is to expand the dual-wield mechanics to all 5 skills instead of just skill #3. This will solve a lot of lingering problems without affecting other sets — until then, it’s a standoff.

You don’t need DrD in PvE however it has the best AoE weapon (the staff) so it’s something that you may want to have. That’s really up to your build and playstyle if DrD fits flawlessly.

In my build, CS/Acro/DrD, I used S/D + P/P on single target fights (boss) and D/D + S/B on trash mobs — I used to carry Staff for the trash mobs, but the animation of the staff skills really bugs me. Other than the Staff AA, the rest of the skills’ animation looks awkward, specially Vault. So my choice not to take Staff is subjective — objectively, it has the best AoE damage and two skills with evade. Those two evades works well with Driven and Escapist, so if you choose to not take the Staff, choose a weapon set with evade, otherwise you won’t benefit much from DrD.

The main reason I take DrD is Unhindered Combatant and access to the Physical Skills like Fist Flurry and Bandit’s Defense.

Serious Thought.5394:

So I give up an instant spike, a projectile reflect, two stuns that are unblockable, and minions for this passive/active. Why was my previous version of first crit gets 10% or first hit gets 10% not ok? It had a single revealed removal as well.

IMPO, I rather not see more damage boosters. Also, it seems that ArenaNet’s idea of a spike damage has to come from multiple sources and not just from one (the Thief), so it is unlikely that it will be implemented.

EDIT: In addition, keep in mind that his will sync with Signet of Power so yeah, that’s just too much power/damage/

Serious Thought.5394:

But then it is not a signet. Signet’s have passives.

Since that’s the case, here’s what I propose;
- Passive: Critical hits restores 1 initiative. 10s CD

saerni.2584:

No, that is exactly what you mean when you say “the condi-build never have to sacrifice survivability to gain the level of damage they can put out” — meaning that, for the survivability, you think there is “too much damage.”

No, you’re jumping to a wrong conclusion.

Let me put it this way.
- Power-build – 1,000 DPS – sacrifices toughness and utility to counter the armor damage mitigation
- Condi-build – 1,000 DPS – tanky, no sacrifices

Here’s a question that needs to be answered. At its current state, why would anyone take this instead of BV or IS?

Here’s my suggestion;
- No Passive
- Active: Remove Revealed and you cannot be Revealed for 3s. 60s CD.

This one is worth not taking the other Elite skills.

saerni.2584:

And to answer you Vincent — your bolded text says “too much damage” and I attempted to debunk the idea that, in fact, the damage was all that strong. Conditions can be blocked/evaded/passively cleared/actively cleared. Another implication of your bolded text is that there isn’t enough condition clear. I can’t speak to every classes condition clear. For thief we have many active utility clears and semi-passive condition clear traits (trickster, shadow’s rejuvenation, escapist’s absolution, pain response).

I’m sorry that you still fail to understand what I’ve posted. Nowhere in the bolded text was it ever implied “too much damage” — rather my point was, the condi-build never have to sacrifice survivability to gain the level of damage they can put out. Power-build often has to sacrifice survivability and utility to achieve the same amount of damage as condi-build. The main reason for this sacrifice is due to the fact that power-build damage can be easily mitigated by armor while condi-build damage ignores armor.

I wasn’t talking about “too much damage” neither the availability of cleanse.

saerni.2584:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The cheesiness of a condi-build is not because their target has no cleanse, rather the fact that their build is so tanky while dealing a lot of armor ignoring damage.

A power-build has to trade survivability for damage and their damage is mitigated by armor — this is not the case for condi-builds, that’s why it’s cheesy.

Let’s talk hypothetical DPS numbers here.

A power-build can trade some DPS for survivability. What it gets out of that is the ability to hit a target for a longer period of time and overcome their evades and blocks. While the DPS might be lower vs. a target just sitting there, the overall damage dealt is greater given that sustain.

Now, a condition build is going to out damage against a zero cleanse build assuming they dodge and block. This makes sense because they are focused on avoiding melee damage only. Now if they run any sort of condition clear the power-build is going to out damage the condition build. This makes sense too.

Convert condition damage numbers to total final damage. Opening attack is around 20k without cleanse. Let’s assume 25k. Cleanse should cut that damage down to 8k, depending. You want to claim condition damage is too strong when a power build with decent sustain (marauder’s stats) can hit 8-10k repeatedly in a short time frame?

If condi thief is cheese then might as well just say you would like all damage conditions removed from the game.

Let me repeat;

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The cheesiness of a condi-build is not because their target has no cleanse, rather the fact that their build is so tanky while dealing a lot of armor ignoring damage.

The cheesiness of a condi-build is not because their target has no cleanse, rather the fact that their build is so tanky while dealing a lot of armor ignoring damage.

A power-build has to trade survivability for damage and their damage is mitigated by armor — this is not the case for condi-builds, that’s why it’s cheesy.

Just give Unload Ricochet so Headshot will not have access to it. Pistol AA also need its pre-cast/after cast delay reduced or removed.

What’s the winning condition? Who wins the pot?

Can you forfeit a fight? (i.e. rl aggro)

is the time GMT?

when’s the deadline for sign-up?

Azukas.1426:

*I don’t need to illustrate what made SD unfair. Anet decided it. Take it up with them.

That’s all I need to know. In the end, your posts were irrelevant and a complete waste of time.

It’s not like you’re the one doing the balance, thus this thread was aimed at ArenaNet in the first place — not you. You just feel like you have to defend something idiotic rather than looking at the state of the profession.

vox.9027:

Let me guess you’re an l2p forum hero?

Just ignore him. He likes to mock people rather than providing an explanation.

vox.9027:

Can this skill please Pierce?

Too often I can’t deny heals because I hit a turret, gyro, clone, minion, pet, binding root, etc.

Basically there’s a lot of AI in PvP.

Body blocking is a counter to your counter to their heal. The minions are doing what they are meant to do.

The only real scenario where you’ll have a hard time connecting a headshot is if you’re using P/P since D/P and S/P already put you in melee range which makes it imposible to miss a headshot or have something intercept your bullet.

My advice is to refrain from using P/P in PvP — the damage, the cost, and the difficulty are not worth using P/P.

Azukas.1426:

So in 04/2013 we saw a DP and SD buff. Separating FS/LS was a buff.

No it wasn’t. We just wanted the pathing to be fixed not split the skill. The damage was fine, the cost was, and the effect was fine. They broke it.

But I’m not going to argue with your “cool aide” perception on what S/D used to/should be.

Then 8 months later we see a SD nerf and a dagger MH buff 1 year later. This by no means shows that SD was nerfed and DP buffed.

Just because it takes ArenaNet forever to do their updates doesn’t mean that the nerf on S/D was not a buff on D/P. Of all the sets that the Thief has, only D/P benefited from those S/D nerfs.

Sorry you’re wrong, but then your real feelings come out. I highlighted it for all to see….

Yup, that’s all you can do. Just accuse without reason because the facts are too much for you.

You’re upset because anet took away your favorite ball. Instead of understanding that hey maybe my ball wasn’t fair you’ve taken up this self righteous crusade against DP.

You have failed to illustrate what made S/D unfair that it deserved all the nerfed that it received. All you do here is mock with a lot of your nonsense never giving a good reason to support your claim. Calling this thread a “self-righteous crusade againts D/P” is nothing but a dishonest representation of what’s being discussed here.

Thank you for losing this discussion and illustrating the reason why everyone on this forum will now disregard anything you say from now on. Especially on the subject of thieves.

So it’s all about winning and losing for you. Figures.

At the end of the day, regardless of who wins and losses here, the fact remains — D/P is a dominant set and the rest are crap and you have not offered a comprehensive solution to change that

Yes, good day.

Azukas.1426:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Ohitei.8043:

You should seriously admit, nerfing D,P isn’t a solution at all cause it would end up nowhere.

When they nerfed S/D, it lead us to the rise of D/P. So nerfing D/P might lead us to more build diversity.

No buffs,to DP came when the SD nerf came. More people were using DP before the death of SD anyways

I’m not in the mood to dig up some past update but here’s something to prove you wrong.

April 2013
- Shadow Shot skill: The projectile portion is now unblockable. (huge buff)
- FS/LS split
- FS 1st strike used to remove boon, now added to LS
- FS cost reduced to 3 from 4 (then back to 4 again in 2014)

December 2013
- Infiltrator Return nerfed

September Feature pack 2014
- Dagger Strike/Wild Strike/Lotus Strike now hits up to 2 targets.
- Flanking Strike: This skill now must successfully hit a target before giving the thief access to Larcenous Strike. Initiative cost has been increased to 4.

If I wast to cleave with my weapon, I have to swap to S/x. D/P was meant to be a single target set, but after this update, S/D is no longer needed since Dagger’s AA is faster than Sword AA. The recent AA update only further enlarge the gap between Sword and Dagger.

That’s all I can remember on top of my head and I know there were more. I know that LS was nerfed some time ago to only remove 1 boon instead of 2. FS used to deal 252+504 and some time after the split FS/LS only deal 252+365.

Even though D/P didn’t get a lot of buffs, the amount of nerfs to S/D was enough for players to abadon it and pick up D/P.

In a sense, I like the same thing to happen to D/P — just keep chopping its legs so other sets can also be picked up.

Ohitei.8043:

You should seriously admit, nerfing D,P isn’t a solution at all cause it would end up nowhere.

When they nerfed S/D, it lead us to the rise of D/P. So nerfing D/P might lead us to more build diversity.

Geiir.7603:

From lore I would say that Charr are the race that fit thief the most.

If you don’t see that many of us, then we do our job just fine: Staying in the shadows, gathering knowledge and waiting for the opportune moment to strike.

For the Ash Legion!

I don’t know about that. Sylvari has a natural stealth ability when standing next to shrubbery.

Jana.6831:

@ Sir Vincent :
If they get the initative elsewhere they don’t have to trait in trickery as I guess this might be one of the main arguments they’re taking it.

The extra initiative is just too good for D/P since it is also the cheapest total weapon skill cost. On top of that the CDR on Steal synergizes very well with Klepto for more initiatives.

I understand mesmer stealth and I like veil, also that all of us are stealthed (important in wvw) – but all trappers, mesmers and engis became stealth abusers and don’t have anything tied to it – so they should have it restricted by either very long cooldowns or.. traits so that they have to sacrifice stuff for being in stealth. Also I don’t want to be stealthed by random people in the worst possible moment and truth beingt told: most players don’t understand stealth.

Yeah, that’s one of the problem with party/group wide stealth. It would be balanced and more effective if stealth is limited to the user. Party/group stealth just cause too many problems.

The balance in this game is still really off, so it’s hard to tell whether or not heavies should always be revealed. Right now heavy classes are dealing way too much damage (again; speaking from a wvw point of view).

The thing is, they didn’t want Thief dealing so much damage from stealth, yet they allow heavies to gain stealth in any way. That in itself is what throws the balance out of whack.

Jana.6831:

@ Sir Vincent :
Ok, got it. I’m a bit multitasking right now – might take a bit here and there until I really get some points.

Extra initative because of P/P? The problem is that this would buff D/P yet again.

The D/P build already takes Trickery so it will have no difference for them. It’s neither a buff or nerf, but it will be a good buff for other sets.

I want no other class to have stealth, actually – It’s so annoying to be stealthed by player x, then y, then z when you’re about to CnD. Also the only argument for revealed is the stealth of other classes and/but they aren’t build around stealth. I will never understand why they made these design choices.

Flavor-wise, it makes sense for Ranger, Mesmer and Engineer to have access to stealth, so I don’t really mind if they only allow these profession access to stealth other than the Thief. What I don’t like to see is Warrior or Revenant coming out of stealth — that makes no sense whatsoever. Stealth should also not have a party wide ability. This way, the stealth mechanic is exclusive to the professions where it makes sense and out of reach of professions who can be overpowered like Warrior and Revenant.

Mechanic-wise, Ranger and Engineer should only have a maximum of one skill that gives them stealth. Mesmer can have a max of 3 skills. Thief should be the master of all stealth.

I don’t think that either should be spammable. I guess pvp is a different field than wvw – but the damage in wvw is that high since June that playing that mode is no fun anymore. But yes, you have a point, due to the initative we can spam everything anyway and it makes no sense that vault hits harder than BS and is spammable.

Exactly. Thief should only have Revealed if an anti-stealth skill was used on them. Other than that, Thief should be free to use their mechanics unhindered.

Jana.6831:

@ Sir Vincent :
If you get rid of CnD you also get rid of ~4k damage (in wvw) – more actually as the vulnerability also won’t be applied anymore.

Not CnD, just the CnD+Steal combo because I would like CnD to have a built in shadowstep.

The least line I mind is trickery: Swiftness on steal, extra damage per initative, reduced steal cooldown, SoH, reduced recharge for tricks – I use all of it = even if you make the one or other baseline I’d still take it.

Yes, but other builds don’t have to take it. I don’t take Trick in my build but I could use the extra init and the Steal CDR.

I don’t know, the revealed makes us a bit more balanced against other classes as we can’t just spam backstab. I don’t mind self inflicted reveal, but I do mind forced reveal and I’m honestly annoyed by every other class having stealth – but thats a different and long topic. But in the end: There’s currently so much wrong in this game that no matter whether they fix a, b still will be broken and then c, d, e…

The Revealed makes us crippled actually because if near-perma-stealth works for Engineer, Thief should have better.

Besides, it takes a skill to go in stealth before we can backstab, that in itself balances backstab. Right now backstab’s damage is pathetic compare to Vault. So even if backstab is somehow spammable, its damage is already balanced that it won’t be game breaking.

There is hope, IMO that’s Karl, so I’m sure they will figure this out sooner. Removing weapon specific traits is a good start.

Jana.6831:

@ Sir Vincent :
Hidden thief would hamper with my playstyle – I usually CnD and steal – which I can’t really anymore anyway due to the passive invulnerabilities of other classes and due to a game change they made a year ago (Lunar Festival) – since then CnD misses more often than it hits – I don’t think they’ve noticed this, so I don’t think it’ll ever be changed.
I also don’t really need more initative. This would all again favour D/P. = It is really hard to balance classes in themselves and against other classes with the trait system as it is now.

CnD+Steal will be a thing of the past if Steal also grants stealth. I also would like CnD to have shadowstep so it won’t have to rely on Steal to guarantee a hit and at the same time removing the long casting time.

The extra initiative will remove the necessity of taking Trickery since Trickery is all about tricks, I prefer to see more trickery from the trait line and not an initiative booster trait. If they decided that more initiative is not a good thing, then they can reduce the weapon skill’s total costs instead— either way it’s fine by me.

In my opinion, if ArenaNet stopped leashing the Thief by adding self-inflicted revealed for example, the profession will balance itself against other professions. Revealed should only exist on anti-stealth skills and not on stealth attacks. And to further balance the professions, soldier classes (i.e. Warrior, Revenant), for starter, are always revealed and cannot stealth. They have no business stealthing since they only making stealth more imbalance. Then limit the stealth mechanic to only 4 classes with access to stealth as of now — all other classes cannot stealth and always revealed — but that’s for another topic.

Jana.6831:

@ Sir Vincent :
Yeah, it’s no matter how you turn it; it will never work out.
I only heard about that the warrior warhorn skills have been deleted from the traits, so no one uses warhorn anymore = that set is dead. It’s not about “build diversity” in regards to people taking a build like 24422, it’s build restriction regarding weapons. And that has got to be laziness, it must’ve been clear when they merged the traits that certain weapons use the traits. So, you can put the most important traits back on weapons but still, due to the merge, people are forced to play a certain way. I can’t take the falling trait as a D/P thief if I’m serious (I can switch – but I can’t do that mid fight) – so I’m restricted in my playstyle (that trait can be really good).
What they’ve done with the sloppy handeling of the redesign is restricting their own game to only a handful of classes/builds and they created a massive powercreep due to all the passives now being availlable/merged in the traits. I don’t see how they’ll get out of this.

That’s why I agree that D/P needs to be nerfed and if that means that the trait they take needs to go away to make room for something more generic, then so be it. I mean they nerfed S/D hard before and buffed D/P so it’s not like it hasn’t been done before.

One solution they can start with is get rid of Hidden Thief and give stealth to Steal — just like the beta iteration of the skill. Give Thief a 15 Init max and a Steal CD of 20s. Add dazed to Bewildered Ambush and get rid of SoH. Just by these changes, it will open up at least 3 trait slots where they can add a more generic traits that any weapon set can use.

Lettuce.2945:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Lettuce.2945:

And you want to nerf dp solely on the dd vs dp thief matchup? …logic. Let’s not even factor in any other professions or whatever. Let’s be selfish based on the weaponset you’re so hell bent on using. Dd will lose vs anything period. Any profession, any build if they’re good at it. And you’re focused on gimping dp? Ok. You lost all credibility just now. Done talking to you for real. You want a dd buff not a dp nerf. Use your head Einstein.

The fact remains clear regardless on what you think is going on here — and that fact is that your responses are based on a delusion so different than what’s being discussed.

The premise was very simple and you want to complicate it by adding non-related factors like “other professions or whatever”.

The premise was;
- Look at DD (and other sets).
- Look at D/P.
- Now look at which set gets the most benefit from the past updates followed by which set gets unnecessarily nerfed (P/P nerf losing Ricochet and BP nerf).
- Then discuss that with all the buffs that D/P have received that now it requires to be nerfed, then buff other sets to balance the gap between the sets. Feel free to agree/disagree.

It’s so simple, yet you want it to be complicated.

Premise is in title of thread. Kkthxbai.

That’s why you’re delusional. You’re one of those people who reads the headline of a news article and formed an opinion as if they’ve read the whole article even when they didn’t.

Jana.6831:

Sir Vincent: Yes, I know (baseline/minor) – problem is to create traits and to put them somewhere where all thieves have access to them. So basically; I’d rather have single traits again so people aren’t forced to take a for them useless second one which is merged with it. But I don’t think this really works with the 3 per bracket and then with everything put into traits. I’ll think about it some more.

Any traits that are weapon specific like Ankle Shot and Swindler’s should not be traits at all. If ArenaNet believes that Pistol and Sword users will take those, then they might as well make it part of the weapon than making them traits. Currently, those traits are simply taking up space. I use S/D and P/P and never spec’d for those traits.

Making it 3 traits limit is a big mistake IMO because they want to have weapon specific traits and by doing so it only leaves 2 other choices for non-sword builds, for example — and in some cases, no choice at all. Take DA adept major as another example, if I’m using P/P, I won’t take Dagger Mastery obviously and I don’t use traps…I guess might as well take Mug even though I won’t be using Steal that much since it is counterintuitive when using P/P.

Yes, I agree with you. The limitation they’ve put onto themselves is making the game more frustrating than fun just because they want to reduce the number of skills, traits, and builds they want to balance. To me that’s either laziness or they’re starting to lose passion on their game. Karl is but a tiny candle light in an endless space of darkness.

Lettuce.2945:

And you want to nerf dp solely on the dd vs dp thief matchup? …logic. Let’s not even factor in any other professions or whatever. Let’s be selfish based on the weaponset you’re so hell bent on using. Dd will lose vs anything period. Any profession, any build if they’re good at it. And you’re focused on gimping dp? Ok. You lost all credibility just now. Done talking to you for real. You want a dd buff not a dp nerf. Use your head Einstein.

The fact remains clear regardless on what you think is going on here — and that fact is that your responses are based on a delusion so different than what’s being discussed.

The premise was very simple and you want to complicate it by adding non-related factors like “other professions or whatever”.

The premise was;
- Look at DD (and other sets).
- Look at D/P.
- Now look at which set gets the most benefit from the past updates followed by which set gets unnecessarily nerfed (P/P nerf losing Ricochet and BP nerf).
- Then discuss that with all the buffs that D/P have received that now it requires to be nerfed, then buff other sets to balance the gap between the sets. Feel free to agree/disagree.

It’s so simple, yet you want it to be complicated.