Guild Wars 2

In PvP, there’s so much protection for someone dropping below 50% (i.e. Valorous Defense, Defy Pain) that makes Executioner not very appealing to take. Not only it does nothing above 50%, at below 50%, defense mechanism can trigger that the 20% bonus damage is nullified anyway.

In PvE, the only practical use of Executioner is against boss mobs with high max HP. Other mobs die quickly even without it. Even then, I think, Improv is way better in any situation.

Black Frog.9274:

My interest in that particular group type isn’t focused on what’s best overall. Just at what would be “cool” for P/P thieves. Having someone to help keep you alive and someone to help you overcome logistical problems and add group stealth, plus the delicious burst of three thieves just sounds like fun. It goes with my general thought that maybe p/p thief should be thought of as machine gunners in real combat.

The best partner to watch your back is Druid. Their zone control and heals are just too good to pass up.

Black Frog.9274:

I’ve always wanted to see a Guard + 3 P/P Thieves + Mesmer run around for small gang action. I think the general opinion of P/P thieves would change then.

In any given 5 man team, it’s more efficient to just has 3 Guards and 2 Mez, no need for Thieves. The main reason is, Thief has a very small range of options when it comes to group play — they take but never give. They are good with Guard and Mez, but are the Guard and Mez good with Thief? The benefit is not mutual.

It really depends on how coordinated your group is. I once was in a group where we jump into eachother’s Black Powder and Backstab the same target for a lightning quick down. Cycling the Black Powder among 3 Thieves makes our team very deadly since we can pick off targets and down them one at a time with no chance of them reacting or counter-attacking. We can stay in stealth for as long as we want taking turns in putting down Black Powder. It was fun while it lasted.

(this is the start of the new page)

saerni.2584:

As I said it depends. You may be able to quickly down them and hurt them significantly. Just giving up the node is not always ideal.

Usually is other thief or Mesmer where sticking around is viable. Taking Mesmer out can help reduce the other teams group mobility and also cuts down the Moa spikes.

That said, I just test the waters, if it isn’t working there is no need to stick around.

Yeah, totally agree.

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Turk.5460:

You’ve completely missed the point of the whole thread…

Says someone who took things out of context because this someone cannot be bothered to actually read the “whole” thread. Bye.

And the lord said unto Felicia, “Fare thee well!”

Good job Felicia, you finally get it.

I see you’ve gotten so riled up that your replies have degraded to a grade-school combination of “I know you are but what am I?” and “La-La-La-La-I’m not listening to you! I’m right and you’re wrong! La-La-La-La-La”

Calm yourself a bit, you’re looking a little silly here.

Nothing wrong feeding a Troll named Felicia.

You should probably bow out, you’ve lost and are just losing what little face you may have here. Seriously? You’re calling someone a troll because you can’t accept defeat? A little more of this and I can justify adding your replies to the [Salt Factory] thread we have going on our server’s WvW forums. xD

Defeat? I’m practically standing 3ft in front of you with a pistol on my face, you pulled the trigger and missed the point. You call that a victory? Then you go on blaming the recoil of your pistol because it’s too hard to comprehend something so easy yet you’ve missed.

The difference on the topic you’re arguing about is, you’re all about shooting that pistol, while my argument is about dodging the bullet.

saerni.2584:

Thief should test the waters depending on the situation. Some people you can 1v1 and do some serious damage to their team’s viability.

In 1-3-1 split, the Thief should +1 one of the nodes which will guarantee a cap. You should avoid 1v1 if you can. The only reason an opponent would want to 1v1 you as a Thief is to remove you from actually doing your job. If they can make you to commit to a 1v1 scenario, they are more than likely have already won. The only exemption I can see is if your Thief is dueling another Thief, which typically leaves the game a 4v4 team play with no one to upset the stalemate.

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Turk.5460:

You’ve completely missed the point of the whole thread…

Says someone who took things out of context because this someone cannot be bothered to actually read the “whole” thread. Bye.

And the lord said unto Felicia, “Fare thee well!”

Good job Felicia, you finally get it.

I see you’ve gotten so riled up that your replies have degraded to a grade-school combination of “I know you are but what am I?” and “La-La-La-La-I’m not listening to you! I’m right and you’re wrong! La-La-La-La-La”

Calm yourself a bit, you’re looking a little silly here.

Nothing wrong feeding a Troll named Felicia.

next page pls (15 chars minimum)

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Turk.5460:

You’ve completely missed the point of the whole thread…

Says someone who took things out of context because this someone cannot be bothered to actually read the “whole” thread. Bye.

And the lord said unto Felicia, “Fare thee well!”

Good job Felicia, you finally get it.

Xenomorph.5346:

Hey guys – I’m interested in creating (if its not made already) a P/P Staff DPS build for Thieves for Fractals.

The general idea is to spam Unload – Get 25 stacks of might -> swap to Staff -> AA -> Swap to P/P once initiative is full -> Unload to 25 stacks again -> repeat.

For some fights that have mechanics @ certain percentages, camping P/P can be hugely beneficial for DPS. Just Unload -> dodge for the damage boost from DD traits -> Unload some more and repeat.

Ankle Shots over Practice Tolerance would be interesting to explore as well – unless anyone has any other info on this I think PT is the better, safer choice here.

I also run Infiltrator’s Signet for fights that don’t need the CC.

Thoughts? Suggestions? I run standard DD staff traits for this build.

That’s basically the idea, but I personally like D/D simply because of cheap AoE dmg + DoTs having 25 stacks of might. In a boss fight, it’s easier for me to reposition with D/D than with Staff and the CnD + BS with Might stacks is nice too. Staff vs D/D really is just a matter of preference, from what you’re doing, it seems very effective too — more raw dmg and less DoTs.

As for Ankle Shots vs Practice Tolerance; In my opinion, Practice Tolerance has better damage output since the cripple from Ankle Shot only lasts 4.5s (base) with an 8s cooldown. Also the randomness of the Cripple application might be counterproductive if it triggered in the middle of an Unload. You can roughly squeeze only 2 Unloads within the 4.5s window to get the 10% dmg boost. As for Practice Tolerance, you get a constant damage boost whenever you crit. However, if you have other means to cripple, like dropping Caltrops for instance, then Ankle Shot is your pick since Caltrops has a base of 14.75s of cripple — that’s a lot of dmg boost right there.

That’s some good Shortbowing there.

Martym.6971:

You all have stated the same thing over and over again, Thief was not designed around 1v1, then given no proof otherwise.

Because this is common knowledge. While the Thief waste time trying to 1v1, his team is losing points because the other team has 2 nodes capped. The Thief isn’t doing his team any favor wasting time. The Thief needs to be aware of the map situation and capitalize on stealing undefended nodes, not waste time on an inconclusive 1v1 scenario. If you don’t have map awareness, you’re a liability, not an asset. Unlike your position, I believe that the Thief is more productive if they stay in a group using D/D — but that’s me.

Turk.5460:

You’ve completely missed the point of the whole thread…

Says someone who took things out of context because this someone cannot be bothered to actually read the “whole” thread. Bye.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Just a reminder; they gutted Acro to make way for Daredevil. Acro was supposed to be what DD is now (i.e. Feline Grace and the 3rd dodge). Without DD, P/P is severely kitten and surely be tossed out given how broken the other professions are even without their Elite traits.

Sure we can run CS/Acro/Trick, but that is no way near the same level of viability with DD. With that build, there’s no access to stealth other than using heal and utility skill. That right there is a 50% nerf to P/P’s defensive kit.

At this rate, P/P will never be viable unless they change direction.

Except for the passives carrying Acro at the moment which are so good people are sometimes taking it over Trickery and the fact they’ve repeatedly buffed Acro since HoT’s launch to make it a much more appealing line. It’s redundant with Daredevil if you play it as an evade spammer, but Acro is far from gutted in general given the potency of IR, PR, etc. in the current meta.

Taking a P/P build to spam evades is just dumb as it is. It’s a skirmisher’s kit, not a defensive/evasive one.

Everything P/P needs from Acro were used to create DrD instead. Dash is really good at maintaining distance. Not only it removed CC, but it also apply Swiftness and damage reduction — which fit perfectly in a skirmisher’s kit. Besides, evade spam is counterproductive and I was not suggesting that.

So the passive CC negation, swiftness uptime, passive anti-condi-bomb or invuln, (allowing Shadowstep to be used solely as a double-time mobility tool) vigor and improved vigor for sustained beneficial endurance refueling to avoid incoming damage, and either a GM that improves initiative regeneration or provides immobilize hate or extra healing based on dumping initiative is somehow bad on an initiative-hungry set which needs to tempo dodges. Particularly when fighting condi, there is no better single trait line available in the core thief, and even EA requires being in range (thus not kiting) to cleanse as it is.

Literally everything about Acro has excellent synergy with P/P.

Daredevil being forgiving and overpowered compared to all the core lines does not change the fact Acro is a very strong trait line for P/P.

I’ve used Acro and it’s my preference instead of SA and I agree with all that. Just as you said; “Daredevil being forgiving and overpowered” is what made P/P, at least for me, fun to play and without it, I have to settle for a lesser version.

If the rumor is true, I hope that the new Elite trait will help with the Thief’s ranged combat viability.

Turk.5460:

If anyone misunderstands your original post, it’s generally going to be your own fault for not wording it in a way that clearly ties it all together into one coherent thought. I did not disagree with DrD synergizing well with P/P. There was nothing unrelated about my reply, which was very reasonable in replying to:
Your words:

I look at it this way — take away everything DD provides and look at what was left, P/P is a sad weapon set.

Seriously, guy? How can this even be taken out of context? Swallow your pride for half a minute and reflect.

Just because your entire post didn’t revolve around that statement doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist when its not convenient for you. You can’t claim cherrypicking, then attempt to cherrypick your own previous post. This is fun. Basic logic and reasoning as well as understanding simple context clues must be super difficult for some people…

That last part of my post ties perfectly to my main point. Within the context of my post, “everything DD provides” means everything that provides defensive capabilities — after all, I’m talking specifically about defensive capabilities. So taking that out of context will lead you to your erroneous conclusion believing that it is a general/blanket statement.

Fine, let’s address your counterpoint;
“Thief can perform very will with P/P if they are with a group”

This is not true. Outside the sharing of venom, Thief is not a group-oriented profession. Now that P/P can stack its own might buff, it doesn’t need to be in a group. Besides, if you’re idea of playing a P/P Thief is to stay with a group, then you’ve chosen the wrong profession. There are other professions that can do better than an Unload spamming Thief. Not to mention that the weapon set lacking AoE makes the P/P Thief a liability in a group fight. Staff shines in this scenario.

“As long as skirt the fight, or take utilities to clear target and quickly lose the focus, they will still be very deadly”

Deadly or dead. That’s a lot of caveat for using P/P which unintentionally strengthens my point that P/P needs defensive capabilities. How exactly are you to “lose focus” without access to stealth and how do you skirt the fight well without access to the level of efficiency that both Bound and Dash can provide, respectively? Without the traits from DrD, there’s no reason to take P/P and at the same time, Thief loses access to Staff.

“More so than a DrD, as they are free to take Trick/DA/Crit.”

Then this. This doesn’t even come close to replacing what is lost without DrD. Just as DeceiverX.8361 pointed out, the closest build is CS/Acro/Tr. Why in the world would you take DA using P/P?

Just as I said; “You’re completely missing the point.”

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

@babazhook.6805
I was not suggesting to replace DA with DrD. Acro does nothing for P/D that DrD cannot provide, so it’s not even a valid candidate. My suggestion was to use both DA and DrD and maybe have Trick or SA as the 3rd trait line.

Antares LYA.3504:

Another example. Necromancer sending back all those conditions to me.

This is exactly why I don’t use more than 2 kinds of conditions. I know that Torment and Confusion are good to stack with Poison and Bleed, but Necro will always force you to rethink your decision.

I have outlined why I feel both Trickery and SA superior for a P/d build for my purposes. DrD offers those added Physical utilities such as Impairing daggers which simply means displacing something equal or better in the kit.

P/d is NOT an evade build meaning you do not benefit a lot from the on evade traits that is offered up by DrD.

For utility and damage trickery with its added INI , the confusion on steal, uncatchable and lead attacks , can not be beat or matched by anything in the DrD line. Removing TR in favor of DrD is simply a non starter from my perspective.

SA is another I would not give up simply because I find the condition cleanse of SE in a stealth build superior to EA. SA offers two extra stealths and more boon theft which is of great benefit to a Condition build (Impairing daggers does nothing if you can strip resistance off an enemy just as example)

To Acro and comparing it to DrD it hardly as bad as you suggest. Acro will give all the swiftnekitteneally needs and couples that with some pretty decent condition removal and health regen out of PR . That PR works very well with SE in ensuring damaging conditions removed efficiently and does a better job of this then does EA for a p/d build.

While I stated I am rarely stunned in p/d when I do get stunned HtC will break that stun immediately and refill endurance. Yes it has a long cooldown but the frequency of stuns precludes needing it every 12 seconds.

Dont stop also does a decent job as far as Immobs go. While UC is certainly superior in this regard , If I had to rank the suitability of each traitline for the build I want DA, Trickery and SA all come out ahead of DrD. Acro would be slightly behind DrD with a lot tied to other utilities and traits taken and CS at the bottom of the pile.

Well, I do respect your condition build, in fact, I love the poison build you posted before and all those are valid points. Thanks.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Just a reminder; they gutted Acro to make way for Daredevil. Acro was supposed to be what DD is now (i.e. Feline Grace and the 3rd dodge). Without DD, P/P is severely kitten and surely be tossed out given how broken the other professions are even without their Elite traits.

Sure we can run CS/Acro/Trick, but that is no way near the same level of viability with DD. With that build, there’s no access to stealth other than using heal and utility skill. That right there is a 50% nerf to P/P’s defensive kit.

At this rate, P/P will never be viable unless they change direction.

Except for the passives carrying Acro at the moment which are so good people are sometimes taking it over Trickery and the fact they’ve repeatedly buffed Acro since HoT’s launch to make it a much more appealing line. It’s redundant with Daredevil if you play it as an evade spammer, but Acro is far from gutted in general given the potency of IR, PR, etc. in the current meta.

Taking a P/P build to spam evades is just dumb as it is. It’s a skirmisher’s kit, not a defensive/evasive one.

Everything P/P needs from Acro were used to create DrD instead. Dash is really good at maintaining distance. Not only it removed CC, but it also apply Swiftness and damage reduction — which fit perfectly in a skirmisher’s kit. Besides, evade spam is counterproductive and I was not suggesting that.

Turk.5460:

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I look at it this way — take away everything DD provides and look at what was left, P/P is a sad weapon set.

It doesn’t necessarily need DrD to be successful though. If you’re solo or dueling, yes, it relies heavily on that. But core Thief can perform very will with P/P if they are with a group. As long as skirt the fight, or take utilities to clear target and quickly lose the focus, they will still be very deadly. More so than a DrD, as they are free to take Trick/DA/Crit.

Every weapon set doesn’t (and shouldn’t) have to be balanced around 1v1 or solo/roaming.

-Notice how the part I quoted you on is in a separate paragraph from your initial opinion.
-Notice how it was an extremely opinionated and closed minded blanket statement on the viability of P/P.
-Notice how your entire reply to Babazhook (which was thoughtfully showing viability of the set in general) pidgeonholed the set into what you believe it should incorporate for your personal playstyle.
-Notice how I replied in disagreement with the above blanket statement you made.

Me sorry you no write good well. It’s not my fault you failed to understand why my reply revolved around the last segment of your post. You’re only wasting your own time replying to these posts. I’ve got all day to show you why you’re being unreasonable.

Taking something out of context is the problem which leads you to not understanding.

Yes, that last sentence is an opinion, that’s why it started with “I look at it this way” yet you cherry pick that statement as the basis of your respond to my main point. My main point is about defense, you’re responding about offensive, which in my previous posts do not disagree with for which I posted “I am not unaware that this set is being developed to be a “high risk, high reward” weapon set”.

As I’ve already said, you’re arguing against something that I am not arguing about just because you’re own misunderstanding lead you to a wrong conclusion.

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

@babazhook.6805
My main point is; Dash and Bound are perfect with P/P for both stealth and evade playstyle. Without them, P/P dies since Dash is really good at keeping the distance and Bound gives access to stealth to keep the distance. Thus it should be incorporated into the weapon set these capabilities regardless of what Elite trait is available. I just don’t want to lose these when the new Elite rolls in.

I understand what you’re saying. Despite my disagreement, that I believe P/P should be a balance weapon set, I am not unaware that this set is being developed to be a “high risk, high reward” weapon set. However, it is monotonous and it’s easy to counter because of that. It loses viability when there are no other options when Unload is suppressed.

I look at it this way — take away everything DD provides and look at what was left, P/P is a sad weapon set.

It doesn’t necessarily need DrD to be successful though. If you’re solo or dueling, yes, it relies heavily on that. But core Thief can perform very will with P/P if they are with a group. As long as skirt the fight, or take utilities to clear target and quickly lose the focus, they will still be very deadly. More so than a DrD, as they are free to take Trick/DA/Crit.

Every weapon set doesn’t (and shouldn’t) have to be balanced around 1v1 or solo/roaming.

You’re completely missing the point.

You didn’t make any points. You stated opinions.

Your opinion is of a stealth or evade style gameplay, and you think that the weaponset is “sad” without DrD. My response was adequate in relation to your opinion.

??

I didn’t make any points? I thought it’s fairly obvious from the first sentence that begins with “My main point is” but I guess reading is hard. You’re responding about “solo or dueling” and how well P/P “if they are with a group” when I never made any argument about those.

Basically I’m talking about how perfect a convertible is when driving and you responded about sunroofs.

You completely missed the point of my response.

You talk P/P sad. Make blanket statement.
Me disagree. Me talk P/P still viable.
thumps chest

P.S. My main point is that some peoples reading comprehension is lacking. (Oh wait, thats an opinion, since there’s no substance to back it up and turn it into a “point”) Calm your tits.

You are free to make your own statement unrelated to my post, but if you choose to respond to my post, at least address the point I am making. Otherwise, you’re just wasting both of our time.

Looking at your response, you only think you disagree only because you failed to understand what you’ve read. Thank you for sharing your unrelated opinion.

@babazhook.6805
I was not suggesting to replace DA with DrD. Acro does nothing for P/D that DrD cannot provide, so it’s not even a valid candidate. My suggestion was to use both DA and DrD and maybe have Trick or SA as the 3rd trait line.

Antares LYA.3504:

Another example. Necromancer sending back all those conditions to me.

This is exactly why I don’t use more than 2 kinds of conditions. I know that Torment and Confusion are good to stack with Poison and Bleed, but Necro will always force you to rethink your decision.

Just a reminder; they gutted Acro to make way for Daredevil. Acro was supposed to be what DD is now (i.e. Feline Grace and the 3rd dodge). Without DD, P/P is severely kitten and surely be tossed out given how broken the other professions are even without their Elite traits.

Sure we can run CS/Acro/Trick, but that is no way near the same level of viability with DD. With that build, there’s no access to stealth other than using heal and utility skill. That right there is a 50% nerf to P/P’s defensive kit.

At this rate, P/P will never be viable unless they change direction.

Tinnel.4369:

With impairing daggers and spider venom and a couple body shots they’re usually in panic mode before you even get to shortbow.

I’m simply pointing out what DD trait brings and the kind of playstyle that it makes possible. As for full condition damage, I do not disagree.

babazhook.6805:

Taobella.6597:

yeah this build could be very deadly i probably still take bound over dash for stealth reset since poison from the immo is so long no real reason to stay out of stealth.

Personally If I was doing a condition build, I would stay out of DrD entirely. It just does not offer enough. The must haves are DA and Trickery and for that other line I am not convinced DrD offers more then acro or SA for a p/d condition build.

But Impairing Daggers applies 5 stacks of poison with Panic Strike and with Brawler’s Tenacity, that’s applied every 20s. This is how I Daze lock my targets with CG.

On defensive side, BD as stun break on 12s CD and Dash.

Cynz.9437:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Ana’s Skill #1 = Fire Arms -> High Caliber + Skilled Marksman + Incendiary Powder
Ana’s Skill #2 = Rifle #2 -> Net Shot
Ana’s Skill #3 = Alchemy + Tool Belt -> Toss Elixir H
Ana’s Akill #4 = Elixir X (self)

Might not be a perfect match, but it’s not “nowhere near” because it’s too kitten close.

I think we are talking about different Ana here.

If you say so.

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

@babazhook.6805
My main point is; Dash and Bound are perfect with P/P for both stealth and evade playstyle. Without them, P/P dies since Dash is really good at keeping the distance and Bound gives access to stealth to keep the distance. Thus it should be incorporated into the weapon set these capabilities regardless of what Elite trait is available. I just don’t want to lose these when the new Elite rolls in.

I understand what you’re saying. Despite my disagreement, that I believe P/P should be a balance weapon set, I am not unaware that this set is being developed to be a “high risk, high reward” weapon set. However, it is monotonous and it’s easy to counter because of that. It loses viability when there are no other options when Unload is suppressed.

I look at it this way — take away everything DD provides and look at what was left, P/P is a sad weapon set.

It doesn’t necessarily need DrD to be successful though. If you’re solo or dueling, yes, it relies heavily on that. But core Thief can perform very will with P/P if they are with a group. As long as skirt the fight, or take utilities to clear target and quickly lose the focus, they will still be very deadly. More so than a DrD, as they are free to take Trick/DA/Crit.

Every weapon set doesn’t (and shouldn’t) have to be balanced around 1v1 or solo/roaming.

You’re completely missing the point.

You didn’t make any points. You stated opinions.

Your opinion is of a stealth or evade style gameplay, and you think that the weaponset is “sad” without DrD. My response was adequate in relation to your opinion.

??

I didn’t make any points? I thought it’s fairly obvious from the first sentence that begins with “My main point is” but I guess reading is hard. You’re responding about “solo or dueling” and how well P/P “if they are with a group” when I never made any argument about those.

Basically I’m talking about how perfect a convertible is when driving and you responded about sunroofs.

Zero.3871:

Yeah I just want to say:
Thx to anet for 99 % of roamers in wvw playing thief…

Get with the program. Stop being the 1% Elitist.

Ana’s Skill #1 = Fire Arms → High Caliber + Skilled Marksman + Incendiary Powder
Ana’s Skill #2 = Rifle #2 → Net Shot
Ana’s Skill #3 = Alchemy + Tool Belt → Toss Elixir H
Ana’s Akill #4 = Elixir X (self)

Might not be a perfect match, but it’s not “nowhere near” because it’s too kitten close.

Too soon. Still waiting

“FYI the damage increases weren’t part of a re-work of pistols or anything (something I’ve discussed in the past). We realize it still needs some work to get it to where we want, but we wanted to get it closer to being to that point with these changes. We’ll be looking at pistols more in-depth in the future.”
-Karl

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/So-the-Pistol-wasn-t-buffed/first#post5546676

Turk.5460:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

@babazhook.6805
My main point is; Dash and Bound are perfect with P/P for both stealth and evade playstyle. Without them, P/P dies since Dash is really good at keeping the distance and Bound gives access to stealth to keep the distance. Thus it should be incorporated into the weapon set these capabilities regardless of what Elite trait is available. I just don’t want to lose these when the new Elite rolls in.

I understand what you’re saying. Despite my disagreement, that I believe P/P should be a balance weapon set, I am not unaware that this set is being developed to be a “high risk, high reward” weapon set. However, it is monotonous and it’s easy to counter because of that. It loses viability when there are no other options when Unload is suppressed.

I look at it this way — take away everything DD provides and look at what was left, P/P is a sad weapon set.

It doesn’t necessarily need DrD to be successful though. If you’re solo or dueling, yes, it relies heavily on that. But core Thief can perform very will with P/P if they are with a group. As long as skirt the fight, or take utilities to clear target and quickly lose the focus, they will still be very deadly. More so than a DrD, as they are free to take Trick/DA/Crit.

Every weapon set doesn’t (and shouldn’t) have to be balanced around 1v1 or solo/roaming.

You’re completely missing the point.

@babazhook.6805
My main point is; Dash and Bound are perfect with P/P for both stealth and evade playstyle. Without them, P/P dies since Dash is really good at keeping the distance and Bound gives access to stealth to keep the distance. Thus it should be incorporated into the weapon set these capabilities regardless of what Elite trait is available. I just don’t want to lose these when the new Elite rolls in.

I understand what you’re saying. Despite my disagreement, that I believe P/P should be a balance weapon set, I am not unaware that this set is being developed to be a “high risk, high reward” weapon set. However, it is monotonous and it’s easy to counter because of that. It loses viability when there are no other options when Unload is suppressed.

I look at it this way — take away everything DD provides and look at what was left, P/P is a sad weapon set.

theodor.3480:

So at the end of the rant i want to ask you why so salty against thief when there are many counters?

Thieves are perceived to be an easy kill, yet a Thief killed them.

They get humiliated and embarrassed, so they cry.

And their tears produce salt.

EDIT: typo

Too late. We already have Ana — Rifle Engineer.

@babazhook.6805

I was making a case where using the rest of the skills in the P/P weapon set are counterproductive — just as you have illustrated that in order to capitalize the benefit from Unload, you have to swap to Staff. However, your argument is all about the offensive side of P/P and my argument is about the defensive side. Offensively, I agree with you but you have not mentioned anything about defensive. For a build to be viable, in my opinion of course, a weapon set must have access to defensive skills designed for Thief. Not blind, not immob, and not interrupt. Thief’s traits synergize with stealth and evade — and shadowstep is uniquely special for Thief (I still like to see SA doing something for shadowstep, but that’s for another topic). In my observation, there’s just too much emphasis on P/P offensive capability when the skills it really needs are defensive skills.

There are so many problems with the current P/P defensive skill and the main problem is cost and because of shared skills with P/D and D/P; Body Shot, Head Shot, and Black Powder will never have their cost reduced anytime soon — or ever. The solution they’ve implemented is to refund init on Unload assuming that players will use that extra init defensively. Unfortunately, we all know that it is more efficient to dump that extra init for another Unload which further strengthen my point that using the rest of the skills in the P/P weapon set is counterproductive. Further buffing Unload will not solve the problem until they completely redesign how Dual-Wield actually works for the Thief profession — which I suggest that if the same type weapons are in each hand (D/D and P/P) the Dual-Wield innate ability will not only change Skill #3, instead all 5 skills. This will allow the Dev to add defensive skills to P/P without affecting D/P and P/D.

In your post, you used a lot of skills from the current Elite trait — the question is, what will happen to P/P without using that Elite trait? No access to Staff, no PI, no 3rd Dodge, etc. — P/P dies again.

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

P/P has the same problem of power D/D in that the damage was there (and was even before this buff) but the utility and consistency issues hold it back in most matchups.

Just bumping numbers will only create further-binary fights which is far less fun.

At least D/D has evade, AoE, leap and stealth.

P/p has blind , interrupt , Immob and projectile finishers. The major advantage of d/d when stacked up against P/P is that when those other functions used (such as the evade on DB) and INI eaten up doing the same, the AA remains potent. Blinds Interrupts and Immobs on their own stack up very well against evades, Aoe and stealth and especially when factoring in more reveals happening.

If this P/P set is not on the Thief profession, then that would be a good case. However, these are not defenses granted to the Thief which are built around evades, stealth and shadowstep. Blind would have been a perfect defense if it functions the same way as in GW1 or at least have them stack for each application.

D/D in comparison has a lot of positive aspects: hybrid damage, leap with scaling damage, AoE + evade for the price cheaper than Unload, bouncing cripple, stealth + vulnerability, and backstab. Not to mention, dagger auto-attack is faster than pistol’s auto and also boosts endurance regeneration.

Black Powder is ridiculously expensive and it will not be any cheaper thanks to the shared skill with D/P set. So trying to defend using this skill is counter productive.

Head Shot is another expensive “defensive” skill. I say “defensive” only because I never ever use it for defense.

Body Shot is another expensive skill to be used for defense, which again I normally use for offense.

The major difference between D/D and P/P is using DB applies DoT thus using other skills in the weapon set proves to be profitable. On the other hand, Unload requires constant activation while effectively barring other skills from being used since using them are inefficient. If you stop Unloading, your DPS drops, your might stacks falls off, and you don’t benefit from the constant init refunds. With D/D I can combo my skills however I want and maintain high DPS.

For P/P to be viable, P/P should use its own unique 5 skills weapon set. I know I’m only repeating myself here, but every time P/P’s viability is in a discussion, this is the only effective solution if P/P is to be perceived as viable. Treating P/P like a two-handed weapon can add a more fun and active play style to the weapon set. For example, P/P auto-attack will use both pistols instead of just the main hand. Auto-attack will be like a slower version of Unload. Stealth skill and skills #2, #4, and #5 slots will be open for new skills that can give P/P access to evade, stealth, and/or shadowstep. Then it would be viable to take either Acro or SA for defense depending on the player’s play style.

The loss of the DD Elite when a new Elite trait rolls in will definitely make P/P obsolete. Right now, the real defense skill using P/P is Dash or Bound: Dash if you’re an evade playstyle and Bound if you’re a stealth playstyle. Without these two traits, P/P is dead yet again. So in order to stop P/P from dying, they need make this drastic change — it is for the better in the long run, if they are aiming for a long run, that is. Nevertheless, the bottom line remains the same — P/P is far from viable without drastic change.

Coolguy.8702:

I beg to differ. Seen it myself last night.

U must be watching experienced thiefs beat up on new dhs, who run all traps and never leaves lb

semantics – I watch a new Thief beats up experienced DH who runs all traps and never leaves LB. You see, it’s hard to break old habits especially the OP kind.

DeceiverX.8361:

P/P has the same problem of power D/D in that the damage was there (and was even before this buff) but the utility and consistency issues hold it back in most matchups.

Just bumping numbers will only create further-binary fights which is far less fun.

At least D/D has evade, AoE, leap and stealth.

Sly.9518:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sly.9518:

The lotus training I was using more for he whirl finisher in The Choking Gas to stack more poison

Well experience-wise, Lotus doesn’t bring enough to the table. You need to have defensive skills. In theory, it looks good to go all out offensive, but you also need to consider that being immob as a Thief is not healthy and chill will put your Shadowstep in a very long cooldown.

I just thought it’s worth mentioning.

Yeah it is worth mentioning but with Immob and such I use SB 5 to kite as needed I don’t just Spam SB4 and 2, I try to combo off each individual field as much as I can. Then kite as needed rinse repeat.

That’s my reason not taking Lotus, I’m not a big fan of SB5 — too costly.

Sly.9518:

Currently PI doesn’t proc with the interrupts as far as I have seen, my combat log has been utterly empty and I have not seen the indicator ever show on the target enemies bar, not sure if it’s a bug or intended

That’s not good if that’s the case. I didn’t really pay attention last night but it seems that they were dying rather fast. I was under the impression that they made this to give Thief AoE ability and the reason why they nerfed it by 15% in PvP. That’s disappointing.

and even running full Dire with running Dagger Pistol I was getting over 2K PI procs, so if the CG issue with PI is a bug and gets fixed Vipers wouldn’t necessarily be needed and you can keep the tankiness of full Dire, which is still capable of bursting people extremely fast if they don’t react fast enough, or go further and use Vioers but open yourself up to being a lot Glassier.

I wasn’t suggested to go full blown Viper, but having 3 Dire trinks and 3 Dire armor will give enough tankiness with more omph due to higher power. Overall, this combination is a well-rounded hybrid set.

The trouble with full condition build is that when you face against anti-conditions opponent, you’re out of options.

Sly.9518:

The lotus training I was using more for he whirl finisher in The Choking Gas to stack more poison

Well experience-wise, Lotus doesn’t bring enough to the table. You need to have defensive skills. In theory, it looks good to go all out offensive, but you also need to consider that being immob as a Thief is not healthy and chill will put your Shadowstep in a very long cooldown.

I just thought it’s worth mentioning.

Sly.9518:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Lithril Ashwalker.6230:

Sojourner.4621:

With the appropriate traits and proper play, you can drop 20 stacks of poison on a target in an opening burst (Spider, Basi, precast Choking, Impairing daggers, steal initialize while the choking is in flight, lotus dodge away with caltrops on dodge gives another several stacks from projectile combo and the daggers themselves.). It is in fact easier now than it was before thanks to bonus poison stacks.

exact combo of mine, did i not share this with you in spvp?

on another note, its not the fact you have to give opponents or enemies the poison via the choking gas, thats the BAD way to do it. If anyone wants a build for use in wvw or spvp hit me up in game via mail. you dont want Carrion as the power is too low, you want Vipers as it has a balance of power(procs with PI) and condi damage too. its a hybrid and has netted me up to 20 kills, 480k dmg and 23% of my entire team dmg in spvp…not counting that you could do far better in wvw due to no cooldowns on specific sigils.

I agree with this. Viper is essential due to expertise — you’d want the poison to last longer so you don’ have to reapply all the time. Combined with Dire for survivability, but mostly Viper, it’s a very solid combination.

With Dire, Rune of Thorns Potent Poisoner, Sigil of venom and 3 trailblazer trinkets Poison has over 98% duration increase

For pure condition, yes, however, the conversation was about hybrid capitalizing the interrupts by triggering PI.

Since your main weapon is SB, Lotus Training is useless. You don’t need the 10% condition damage boost instead what you need is escape and damage reduction, thus Dash is better in this build.

Carrion + Thorns is the best combination for this build. Deadshot + Thorns works too but with less Vit.

By the way, last night in WvW Choking Gas everywhere ticking at different intervals…lol

Lithril Ashwalker.6230:

Sojourner.4621:

With the appropriate traits and proper play, you can drop 20 stacks of poison on a target in an opening burst (Spider, Basi, precast Choking, Impairing daggers, steal initialize while the choking is in flight, lotus dodge away with caltrops on dodge gives another several stacks from projectile combo and the daggers themselves.). It is in fact easier now than it was before thanks to bonus poison stacks.

exact combo of mine, did i not share this with you in spvp?

on another note, its not the fact you have to give opponents or enemies the poison via the choking gas, thats the BAD way to do it. If anyone wants a build for use in wvw or spvp hit me up in game via mail. you dont want Carrion as the power is too low, you want Vipers as it has a balance of power(procs with PI) and condi damage too. its a hybrid and has netted me up to 20 kills, 480k dmg and 23% of my entire team dmg in spvp…not counting that you could do far better in wvw due to no cooldowns on specific sigils.

I agree with this. Viper is essential due to expertise — you’d want the poison to last longer so you don’ have to reapply all the time. Combined with Dire for survivability, but mostly Viper, it’s a very solid combination.

Ryudnard.2587:

Could be amazing with the recent changes of unload.

They’ve been buffing this skill many times now and there’s no amount of buff will ever make P/P viable unless they actually accepted the facts:

• P/P has no survivability – if only blind condition functions the same as in GW1, this wouldn’t be an issue
• No access to stealth or evade – compare to other weapon sets, this set is a sitting duck
• No access to leap or shadowstep – leap/shadowstep is crucial for Thief since positioning is important for a P/P build
• Shared skill restriction – the reason why they keep on buffing Unload is because of shared skills. Black Powdernerfed because of D/P was very bad for P/P since it’s already lacking survivability.
• Set lacks AoE – it used to be Richochet trait allows P/P access to AoE, but they nerfed that too

All in all, the nerfs in CS have placed P/P at negative-100% viability where it used to sit at 5%-10% viability where it lacks survivability was offset by a massive amount of damage output. So no, P/P will never be as viable as it was before.

Cynz.9437:

These nerfs aren’t a big deal since they are PvP only and I personally do not care about PvP.

Aaand you lost me there. Change topic to wvw/pve analysis. While IP change was probably bound to happen in one way or another simple because of QQ and trolls, the spear change was completely unnecessary and added another extra instant spell that you have to dodge by all means -> yay more random dodges!

I know I have not posted for a long time, but I try to avoid any PvP conversation as much as possible in my posts, thus the disclaimer. The only thing I can assume is based on my personal experience where DH camps a node with traps. The changes to the SB can counter the camping part — to what extent, I have no idea — but the option is there.

You’re welcome to comment on the PvP part of the changes if you want.

Coolguy.8702:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Thief’s updated shortbow counters DH in a big way, so who needs to stealth in a bow vs bow shootout?

They’d be lucky to use any skill inside CG given that each of their skill has casting time. The damage increase of Trick Shot vs poisoned target will force them into defensive.

Thief sb doesnt counter dh

I beg to differ. Seen it myself last night.

Sly.9518:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sly.9518:

Also just as a caveat to my earlier analysis, CG can only apply two Dazes max per target with how the Two separate ICDs work out.

Typically, I stack CG on the target. Since I have not tested this new update in the game yet, I would assume that each application of CG will overlap the timers since each CG will pulse at a different rate. My Impairing Daggers will ensure that they stay inside the gas at least for 3 pulses.

Yes but in theory and in practice are two completely different beasts due to the dynamic nature of this game and combat system, there are so many factors to take into account.

You might be able to overlap timers but that’s 8 initiative and if they are able to get out of it which isn’t too difficult that’s 8 ini wasted.

You’re overlooking half of what I said.

Thief’s updated shortbow counters DH in a big way, so who needs to stealth in a bow vs bow shootout?

They’d be lucky to use any skill inside CG given that each of their skill has casting time. The damage increase of Trick Shot vs poisoned target will force them into defensive.