Guild Wars 2

Jana.6831:

~snip~and in that case the question should’ve been “I want the best build for capping a defended camp”.~snip~

Step: Buy an Arrow Cart schematics

You know the rest.

Jana.6831:

To help the OP to cap camps (because that was their question) – even that isn’t rocket science :P

The OP was asking for the “best” build not the “fast” build. The “fast” build is not always the “best” build and the “best” build may not always be the “fastest”. The term “best” implied that it’s capable in most scenario, which means including other player(s) trying to defend it. You can’t really Dagger Storm your way into the camp when a player is defending it, thus that is not the “best” build or strategy for that matter. Thus this thread contains posts from different perspectives, approaches, and builds. Not rocket science, just an Asura Strategical Simulation.

Ah, but it’s implied, otherwise what’s the point of this thread?

Well the discussion is taking into the account that there might be players nearby responding to the camp being contested. Thus a certain build is necessary to take out the player(s) in addition to the NPC. I know for a fact that my fastest camp take over strategy will crumble when a single player shows up to prevent me from capping it. With that in mind, other posters have posted their own approach and what their exit plans are — which is essential for those who don’t choose “blood-port” as an efficient exit plan.

I can go in the camp with Thieve’s Guild and triggered Ambush using P/P and clean it up in no time…but what’s the fun in that?

Straegen.2938:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Yeah, leaping with Bounding gives S/P stealth, however Bounding is a no-no unless you’re in a group.

I find this to be more or less true.

Stealth handicaps several thief builds including S/P. Black Powder is good for stomps, can make camp caps painless and is solid around other thieves but mostly it sits unused in combat on my builds. It is far better to become proficient on IS and IR coupled with defensive skills like Bandits and Shadow Step.

Mastering D/P tends to handicap players shifting to other weapons due to the reliance on stealth. Stealth isn’t necessary and in some cases sub-optimal.

Stealth is necessary at gaining tactical advantage regardless of build. However, to trade Dash to Bound just to gain stealth is never a good idea unless running with a group or zerg. Besides, S/P is a very expensive set costing 6 init + 50 endurance just to Bound on BP. That’s 50 endurace that could have been used to trigger “on evade” abilities.

IS/IR is very costly for a marginal damage and really only useful when used in S/D because the immob can benefit both CnD and FS/LS. You also lose cleanse with IR if you use any other skill after IS — it would be nice if it functions like FS/LS. But, yes, I agree that BP in S/P don’t really see much play for me either.

D/P Trapper DA/SA/Trick Hybrid kills Mesmers. If you need condition cleanse, just drop a trap, then BS, then auto. Auto the clones too then drop a trap when they shatter. When they see that you’re not fazed…they’ll panic, make mistakes, then die. The idea is not to prema-stealth, but a to become a constant reminder that they’re failing to stop me.

Yeah, leaping with Bounding gives S/P stealth, however Bounding is a no-no unless you’re in a group.

I usually D/P and engage with BP→Steal to land the BP on their feet, then auto-attack then HS before BP wears off which puts me in stealth for a BS finish — then disengage. Rise and repeat. I target the ranged first. In case there are other players, I swap to P/P then kite them around while focusing on the player.

S/P can work also and it has better damage output, however, the set is very expensive to use thus it is very limiting. You basically have to ignore half of your weapon skills just to use 2 of 5 skills. The mobility on S/P is horrible too. I can use HS with D/P as an escape, while S/P is SoL, and in addition D/P has stealth. I only use S/P during siege taking out siege engines. Since I can’t crit on structures, Pistol Whip is the best anti-structure. However lately I find Staff auto-attack more efficient since it doesn’t require initiative and has comparable damage.

You can also use Staff to clear the camp faster. Like others have said, you need to stack them so you have a good return on your Vault. Keep in mind that you need to keep at least 5 initiatives in reserves just in case you need to disengage due to lack of stealth. It may not look like it, but Weakening Strike travels the same distance as HS for the same cost, so you can use this as a disengage.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Well yes, you could definitely do that. What I meant was the stray minion or clone wouldn’t be preventing you from hitting the Necro or Mesmer you truly wanted. Or in a zerg situation, you could just spray and pray and that would be fine too.

The primary effect of pierce is the hit the target you want without being body blocked. Extra damage on other non-ai targets is gravy.

You still face the “on hit” effect problem triggering on an unintended target.

Since we’re dreaming;
- Scorpion Wire to scale walls.
- Climbing ability (edge grabbing feature).
- Evade frame on shadowstep (during and after).
- Teleport flat plane calculation to exclude all obstructions (zero fail shadowstep).
- Mid-air skill activation (e.g. aerial shadowstep, aerial Unload).
- Original Feline Grace.
- Steal (F1) at 15s CD.
- F3 – stealth at 15s CD.
- D/D and P/P gets 5 new skills.
- Stealth Attack reconfigured to Flanking Attack. Backstab no longer require stealth as long as the attack is performed behind or side of the target. Flanking Attacks will have 3s CD.
- Abolish Revealed.
- Reconfigure Thieves Guild to Shadow Clones, making copies of the Thief. These clones will mimic the Thief attacking the same target and using the same skills.
- Weapon Swap will refill the initiative bar to full without requiring a trait.
- 150 endurance baseline.
- 15 initiative max baseline.
- Shadow Refuge grants Stability and Resistance.
- Stealth will have a diminishing return. 100% invisible for first 3s, every second in stealth afterward will reduce the stealth effectiveness by 25%. At 4s, the Thief will be a smokey silhouette. Thus at 5s of stealth, the Thief will be an outlined blur, almost visible. Effectively maxes stealth time to 6s.
- Arcane Thief Elite Spec.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Piercing on Pistol wouldn’t be for the aoe primarily, but to guarantee your damage hits your intended target.

Though even the lack of piercing could be a balancing factor, considering the ranged burst you can unleash.

It can go both ways, though. Why not maximize your piercing bullets by positioning yourself to hit multiple targets by guaranteeing that there’s always something between you and your target?

“Rending Shades applies Silence to target damaged by a stealth attack”
- Silence as a new condition that prevents target from applying boon

OR
“Rending Shades applies Lingering Shades preventing target from applying boon”
- Bring back HEX to Guild Wars.

“in A good place” — emphasis in the “A” means. The Thief has one role using one build with one weapon set. Yes, the Thief is in A good place.

That’s Dev speak and it’s dumb. Thief needs options and diversity, not pigeon hole.

DeceiverX.8361:

Basing skills on others is how the very act of balance is done. I do not forget that CnD requires a hit to gain stealth. Frankly, though, the weakness of the kit is in its inability to deal with an opponent’s defenses, not in the skill requirement in landing a hit. CnD provides strictly more reward than BP + HS on the basis that it carries a larger risk and requires a certain degree of timing. Removing that risk element and reducing the required timing by putting a teleport into the skill ends up simply demanding that the some other element of skilled play be required. The dynamic of CnD requiring a risk for engagement isn’t the problem; its yield is objectively better than BP + HS when it comes to stealth, and can maintain it much better with less investment than any other weapon combo. The conceptual-level design is to open up a higher risk/reward style of play for aggressive players. The risk of getting into range is skill-driven, as most things in the game should be. The problem is that engaging in melee combat, the risk element of using CnD, is excerbated by a bigger problem in that it isn’t reliable enough to provide a reward.

I don’t get you. If CnD has a high risk, then why did you entertain the idea of making it cost 7 init? However, contrary to your perception, there is no “high reward” in CnD, just high risk, thanks to all the nerfs.

BP+HS has no risk but is rewarded by a chance to extend stealth beyond 3-4 seconds. HS will also place the Thief in a more favorable position before going in stealth. All these rewards are not present in CnD.

Sorry but I’m done. Your comparison practices don’t even make any sense, thus it’s difficult to take it seriously. Calling CnD a high risk/high reward is nothing but laughable.

DeceiverX.8361:

And a fast dagger AA and spamming it with DB have nothing to do with backstab at all. Backstab isn’t a fast attack or a multi-hit ability.

It was about the point that “DT is not worth considering” that the preferred choice is Mug.

It doesn’t mean backstab will apply poison, either. It means a random hit will apply poison at some time, and the gained damage is negligible, barely better than using Mug from straight AA’s.

Again, not the point. The point is, DT is worth considering and because of that, bleeding with BS is an obvious power creep that D/D don’t need.

I have a separate condi D/D thief that I made for kittens and giggles. I sometimes go many seconds of AA without landing DT’s poison. Other times, I’ll get multiple occurrences in a row. It’s random, and it typically takes a lot of ramp time to make the stacks deal maybe a few hundred tick damage over their duration in total.

Again, it’s not about the DoT, the fact that poison also hinders healing is a very powerful debuff. On top of that, when it procs it will also apply weakness which is a debuff against endurance gain. Whether the proc is random or not, the fact is, when it did procs, it will break the set if BS also applies bleed. DB can already apply bleed stacks and 33% chance of poison+weakness, it’s not necessary to add bleed in BS.

Much of the damage comes from just the default poison on the AA chain on dagger MH, and quite frankly, shortbow spamming CG does more poison damage than trying to utilize DT.

Again, it’s about what you said that DT is not worth considering, which is fairly obvious now that it is.

The trait is awful, and does not affect the damage output of the thief.

It’s only awful because it’s dagger only. Poison is poison and it does what it does.

Even its use as a heal cut is trash, since steal and the AA of dagger MH provide extended-duration poison on their own.

Here we go again. In DA/CS/DD build, Steal happens every 30s. You’ll have to sacrifice a chunk of damage just to include Trick for the reduced Steal CD. Even then, it’s a poison that can proc multiple times within the 21s CD of Steal, or we can rely on steal for poison every 21s. I personally would pick a constant pressure than something that can be mitigated or cleaned every time it’s applied. Yes, once the poison from Steal is cleansed, your pressure is gone until Steal gets out of CD.

I’m not even speaking on the context of having conditions on backstab. DT is just straight up a garbage trait; if backstab applied “massive bleeding,” whether or not it would be broken is entirely independent of DT, because DT would still be a terrible trait to take.

I’ll assume for a moment that I agree with you and bleed is applied to BS, then DT has to go for balance sake. IMO poison is way way better than bleed, thus I do not agree with that solution.

Since you’re forcing it, though:

Forcing what? It’s the topic of this thread, not from me.

“Massive bleeding” was never clarified. We have no idea what that means.~snip~

Really now? Massive is a size big enough to a point of being broken. Take your guess.

Keep in mind that bleed can stack up to 1500. 25 stack is not massive relative to the max stack.

Everything else you posted has nothing to do with BS context anymore.

Your argument isn’t based on anything coherent. DT is a horrible trait except as a best-damage option for condi PvE builds after they’ve run out of initiative and spam AA for poison stacks on a boss. The real source of damage comes from Potent Poison more than DT.

As long as you’re finding an exception… your stance is wrong because the issue that’s being talked about is when that exception occurs makes BS out of control. Typical power creep.

You don’t even need Potent Poison as long as you gear correctly. It’s a good boost, but even without it, a full Dire set + Thorns can apply high damaging poison.

Azukas.1426:

Did any of you guys,think that maybe anet doesn’t want you abusing stealth anymore…

Did you read the whole thread before asking this question? Because if you did, you wouldn’t be asking this silly question.

D/D evade frame may be nice, but the pre-cast and after-cast delays are not. Due to this, any player cannot skillfully evade anything unless the player has psychic power who can predict what will happen 2s ahead of time. Any player reacting to something will miss the evade opportunity due to these delays.

The only reliable evade is Pistol Whip because even if you fail to evade, your target will be interrupted and forced to dodge. If it only didn’t cost more than 50% of our resources to use.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Kageseigi.2150:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t think you’re looking at this correctly.

I believe you’re making different arguments…

You said that adding a Bleed on Backstab would make it broken because of Dagger Training already gives Backstab a chance to apply poison, weakness, and 10% damage increase.

However, Dagger Training gives all Dagger attacks that same chance. Therefore, it is not a Backstab-specific issue. It is a matter of Bleeding. That is all. You could make the same argument about Death Blossom and it’s Bleeds in conjunction with Dagger Training.

And yes, speaking specifically about Backstab, a 100% chance to inflict Bleeding makes a 33% chance to apply poison really seem pathetic.

I don’t think so. Poison deals more damage than bleeding and it reduces healing power. Even a 33% chance to reduce healing power is never pathetic then adding damage to that makes it well worth it, even a single stack.

Steal has a base CD of 30s, CnD has an init cost of 6 (equals to 6s). Meaning, I have 5 chances to BS even before Steal goes off CD (this is assuming that I have zero init to start with). Steal requires Mug to deal damage. So in comparison, Steal that deal damage and applies 2 stack of poison every 30s is not even close to the damage output of 5 BS and 33% chance of poison.

Let’s assume that they add 100% chance of bleed on BS, ignoring for a minute that the OP is asking for “massive bleeding”, that would simply put BS’s damage output out of control. Keep in mind that Steal with Mug only deals ~500 damage every 30s (base), while BS can deal ~400-850 dmg every 6s. With this damage output from a single skill would mean that either the base dmg of BS gets nerfed, its coefficient, or other traits and skills. This is why power creep is bad.

But even if Dagger Training can add that additional poison potential, you’re assuming that it will be chosen over Mug… which is a much more universal trait. Trading condition damage and denial of healing for direct damage and healing.

As long as DT is available as on option, you cannot dismiss its potential.

I do agree, though, if Revealed Training gave Might instead of a power increase… or even if Backstab (or Stealth Attacks in general) granted so much Might similar to Unload (at least after a successful hit), then all Thieves would benefit from it. Even power Thieves would be able to benefit better from Bleeding ticks on Backstab.

Yes, stealth attacks granting might is the way to go. The +200 power from RT cannot be countered. At least the might stack is vulnerable to boon strip which is worth the risk and balances itself out.

EDIT: typos

Except DT it isn’t worth considering. DT does less damage via poison on 5 backstabs at a 33% chance than steal alone. Its potential lies in not being in stealth while dealing lots of rapid attacks.

~snip~
DT is just a terrible trait. The only reason for its use is via the fast AA’s on dagger MH or spamming 3 more on DB for a a 3x 33% chance of application per given DB. Otherwise, the trait is just straight-up garbage.
~snip~

There you said it yourself, there’s a reason to consider DT, which invalidates your first statement.

D/D taking DT means their BS will apply poison. Adding “massive” bleeding to BS will throw D/D’s damage output out of control.

It’s that simple.

DeceiverX.8361:

1 init stealth is absurd when considering all those effects. Not to mention the teleport range was unspecified.

600 range teleport is not enough to engage with and too safe/easy to justify such cheap stealth and those effects.

Your justification also makes no sense. You’re adding effects of skills together and not adding initiative in a corresponding fashion. You’d be looking to 7 initiative baseline for CnD from your evaluated costs without even considering stealth (so + 1 to 8, just like BP/HS), but you also neglect that IS has an effective 15 second cooldown. To repeat a cast, IR costs 2 initiative, followed by another 3. You’d have to balance towards a cost of 5 + on the teleport alone, and the teleport isn’t even very good. In the end, you’d nee to justify CnD with such a powerful effect between 10 and 12 initiative. A full baseline bar seems kind of stupid considering it only yields 3s of stealth, and thus D/P would be better, but any less, and you’ve effectively combined four skills into the ability and lowered the skill floor tremendously. All that at six initiative, and I’d never do anything but press 5 to beat people. On the same note, D/P already does this with Shadow Shot, by pressing 3, except without the stealth. But I’ve said repeatedly Shadow Shot is overtuned.

Pretending that’s balanced is just foolish.

CnD doesn’t need to be buffed dramatically to offset its nerfs. It’s only ever seen two, one of which was indirect with the implementation of Revealed (which without it the thief was wildly overpowered) and one of them got half-reverted when the damage coefficient was normalized via a 16% damage cut, but the 33% nerf undone from sPvP. As a consequence to HoT’s defensive power creep, it needs to be made more reliable and cheaper is all. The problem with CnD is that half the time it’s wasted initiative because it gets negated, which negates all of D/D power. This is a 40-50% initiative loss at the start of a fight, and more resources (another 40-50%) need to be pushed to try a second time, which usually means the thief is struggling by then, and then has no tools to do anything afterwards.

Comparing CnD to BP/HS and suggesting that CnD would cost 7 init makes your whole argument ridiculous. You’re forgetting that CnD has a hit requirement or at least a target while BP/HS doesn’t…I shouldn’t have to point out that obvious fact, but I digress. We never agreed about the existence of Revealed, thus this is another one we’ll never going agree on.

For starter, D/D and P/P need not share any skills with other weapon sets. They should have 5 unique skills each, so we can leave CnD to its current state since there’s a lot of people who like it as is. Talking about the current state of these weapon sets only leads to a cyclical and rehashed arguments that we all been heard before. So we’re simply talking about the same thing all over again.

There’s no way ArenaNet can maintain the usability of both D/P and S/D and buff D/D. At its current state, it cannot be done. They can only do so much with DB. D/D needs its own 5 skills independent from other sets.

Straegen.2938:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The excuse they use on removing Ricochet is pathetic at most. If the bouncing is the problem, then how come Trick Shot (SB #1) still exist?

I think that is what kittened so many of us off. Ricochet could have been modified to always hit one or two other targets or simply pierce. Its removal just seemed pointless. Add on the SB nerfs and the thief is left with no effective AoE damager in a heavy AoE meta.

Piercing would require that the Pistol range be increased, otherwise it would be pointless because you need to have your targets within the 900 range. Ricochet is always the best option and it makes perfect sense for Pistol.

Mesmers have a very complicated Pistol skill #5 compare to Ricochet, where it doesn’t just bounce, but applies different conditions each hit.

Ranger’s axe skill #1 is called Ricochet, hurr hurr, and it bounces all over the place.

So yeah, their reasoning for Ricochet (Thief trait) is total BS.

DeceiverX.8361:

~snip~
A shadowstep on CnD would turn D/D into a high-skill-ceiling set into one of the lowest in the game, offering effectively a free CC + port + stealth on 6 init with huge potential nuke afterwards. No thanks, I’d rather be underpowered than overpowered. If I wanted to be overpowered, I’d play condi mes or even arguably condi D/D.

Teleport + CC costs 3 init (see Infiltrator Strike) and 3 stacks of vulnerable cost less than 4 (see Body Shot 5 stacks for a cost of 4init), so let assume 2. That’s a total of 5 init to have teleport, CC, and 3 stacks of vulnerability, which leaves 1int cost for stealth.

That is the total cost of CnD after giving it shadowstep, ignoring for a moment the casting time cost.

IMO, it’s highly justified.

This really has nothing to do with players having a hard time landing CnD. It’s all about the nerfs that CnD had received without compensation in addition to the attempt to improve the D/D set.

Kageseigi.2150:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t think you’re looking at this correctly.

I believe you’re making different arguments…

You said that adding a Bleed on Backstab would make it broken because of Dagger Training already gives Backstab a chance to apply poison, weakness, and 10% damage increase.

However, Dagger Training gives all Dagger attacks that same chance. Therefore, it is not a Backstab-specific issue. It is a matter of Bleeding. That is all. You could make the same argument about Death Blossom and it’s Bleeds in conjunction with Dagger Training.

And yes, speaking specifically about Backstab, a 100% chance to inflict Bleeding makes a 33% chance to apply poison really seem pathetic.

I don’t think so. Poison deals more damage than bleeding and it reduces healing power. Even a 33% chance to reduce healing power is never pathetic then adding damage to that makes it well worth it, even a single stack.

Steal has a base CD of 30s, CnD has an init cost of 6 (equals to 6s). Meaning, I have 5 chances to BS even before Steal goes off CD (this is assuming that I have zero init to start with). Steal requires Mug to deal damage. So in comparison, Steal that deal damage and applies 2 stack of poison every 30s is not even close to the damage output of 5 BS and 33% chance of poison.

Let’s assume that they add 100% chance of bleed on BS, ignoring for a minute that the OP is asking for “massive bleeding”, that would simply put BS’s damage output out of control. Keep in mind that Steal with Mug only deals ~500 damage every 30s (base), while BS can deal ~400-850 dmg every 6s. With this damage output from a single skill would mean that either the base dmg of BS gets nerfed, its coefficient, or other traits and skills. This is why power creep is bad.

But even if Dagger Training can add that additional poison potential, you’re assuming that it will be chosen over Mug… which is a much more universal trait. Trading condition damage and denial of healing for direct damage and healing.

As long as DT is available as on option, you cannot dismiss its potential.

I do agree, though, if Revealed Training gave Might instead of a power increase… or even if Backstab (or Stealth Attacks in general) granted so much Might similar to Unload (at least after a successful hit), then all Thieves would benefit from it. Even power Thieves would be able to benefit better from Bleeding ticks on Backstab.

Yes, stealth attacks granting might is the way to go. The +200 power from RT cannot be countered. At least the might stack is vulnerable to boon strip which is worth the risk and balances itself out.

EDIT: typos

Azukas.1426:

I would say either up the vuln to 10 stacks on CnD. This helps all OH dagger sets w/out greatly OP’n them.

Azukas.1426:

…you aren’t going to get kitten for your class but more nerfs and forever being a gutter tier class…because yes thief is gutter tier.

The End.

Azukas.1426:

You’ll just have to adapt to the balance team’s vision.

Nah. I have my own reasons to believe that what we discuss here in the forum has an influence on what they do. May it be minimal, but it’s still there. Otherwise, they would simply forget about the 10% heal increase on Withdraw, but we kept them reminded.

Their vision is unpopular just by looking at how many well known PvP players have left due to them forcing their vision on us. I will only trust their vision if a single Dev plays the current Thief very well and very smoothly. Since there’s no known Dev who plays Thief well enough, we’re the only source they got, thus they’re stuck with our vision.

And since each Thief player’s vision often conflicts, it is healthy to discuss it here. And even if we don’t agree with each other’s vision, at least the Devs can see for themselves our different perspectives. I don’t know about you, but participation is completely optional.

Kageseigi.2150:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BS already have 33% chance to apply Poison, Weakness, and +10% Damage against the target when traited with Dagger Training.

Adding bleed to that is just broken.

Broken? Yes. But in the opposite direction that you seem to imply.

First, it’s a 33% chance to apply poison. For an attack that can happen only once every 4 seconds, that’s rather pathetic.

An effect that has 50% chance to trigger on crit with 5s CD is very good but Dagger Training is “pathetic”? Whaat?

Second, you have to give up Mug which gives 100% chance to damage/heal… and may even out damage Dagger Training’s poison. On top of that, Steal will also give a 100% chance to apply poison, weakness, and +10% damage.

Given that I can go in stealth using CnD (as an example) 5x with 33% chance to apply poison before every get a chance to use steal again, I don’t think you’re looking at this correctly. Besides, even if I don’t take Mug, I still benefit from the poison on steal, so…this argument is moot.

Third, power Thieves have little reason to take Potent Poison over Executioner or Improvisation, so there will be no boost to Dagger Training’s poison.

Then why add bleed? Really confused now. The bleed on power Thieves is so low (22 dps base) it’s not even worth the Dev’s time to implement.

So I don’t see a Bleed on Backstab breaking anything. It will allow power Thieves to bypass some defenses, and it will give condition Thieves an actual reason to use Backstab.

Sorry, but I play condition Thief and I use Backstab and when that trait proc’s, it hinders heal and endurance regen. Adding bleed to that will only make things broken especially when bleed is already very easy to apply. Now add Rending Shade to that mix…I don’t want to be on the receiving end of that.

I’m not saying it’s a great idea. But I certainly don’t see it breaking anything. Besides, as I said before, the Thief is in a bad state. It needs improvements. Even if a redesign/overhaul is in order, more improvements to gain competitiveness should be sought after. There is a long, long way to go before the Thief ever becomes “broken” in an overtuned fashion. Well, perhaps, except for the “perma-evade” Daredevil form. Never played it, and haven’t had much experience against it, so I cannot comment.

The Thief’s brokenness relies on how effective it will be against other players. Sure now it may seem appropriate to just keep on adding damage to the Thief, but in the end, the Thief suffers because as a reaction from the Devs, they will buff the defensives of other professions — this is why power creep is a broken mentality. BS has issues, but never it’s damage. BS can deal a lot of damage and the only reason why we don’t see big numbers is because ArenaNet made it weak by making other professions tanky.

If they ever decided to nerf the defensives, BS with bleed will also get hit by the nerfed bat because it is broken, often to an unjustified level of nerf.

DeceiverX.8361:

All CnD needs is more reliability./accessibility…

How exactly do you achieve that without shadowstep?

Even without the target’s defensive mechanics, CnD is not always a 100% hit. The only time it is reliable is when used with Steal.

If shadowstep is not an acceptable option, I would favor an instant cast CnD.

Jerus.4350:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jerus.4350:

Don’t forget Lead attacks which requires that you use initiative to obtain. Making the BS rotations even more important. I haven’t really sat down and tested it but I do know the rotation is higher damage than strait autos. How much is revealed training and lead attacks though I’m not sure.

And it’s not just raids, any organized grouping will have some form of group might production, there are enough options. Guardians can actually stack 20+ stacks now for the group between Empowering Might and Scepter Symbol.

Anyways, if you want to change it so badly, 5% damage while wielding a dagger would work

Yes, a straight up buff to Dagger (again…) is better than what Revealed Training can give. However, the problem with that is Stealth Attacks are not exclusive to daggers.

Yeah, and they’ll do what they’ll do. I just had to point out that might doesn’t have the same value in organized PVE and additions to dagger specifically would be the only way to maintain the status quo on that end. Didn’t mean for it to turn into a long debate

It’s more like a brainstorming than a debate. lol

Cynz.9437:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shadowstep in CnD is needed that’s why CnD->Steal works very well. That combination should be in CnD. Then again, that’s just a lame idea because what I really want is a completely 5 different skills exclusive for D/D (and P/P) using the Dual-Wield mechanic.

That would make s/d way too broken. They should maybe give cnd blind.

There’s no damage benefit for S/D to go in stealth. Sure they get an extra mobility, but how is that broken?

Jerus.4350:

Don’t forget Lead attacks which requires that you use initiative to obtain. Making the BS rotations even more important. I haven’t really sat down and tested it but I do know the rotation is higher damage than strait autos. How much is revealed training and lead attacks though I’m not sure.

And it’s not just raids, any organized grouping will have some form of group might production, there are enough options. Guardians can actually stack 20+ stacks now for the group between Empowering Might and Scepter Symbol.

Anyways, if you want to change it so badly, 5% damage while wielding a dagger would work

Yes, a straight up buff to Dagger (again…) is better than what Revealed Training can give. However, the problem with that is Stealth Attacks are not exclusive to daggers.

BS already have 33% chance to apply Poison, Weakness, and +10% Damage against the target when traited with Dagger Training.

Adding bleed to that is just broken.

Jerus.4350:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jerus.4350:

10 stacks of might while I have a ps warrior keeping me at 25 stacks of might gives me…. 0 stacks of additional might which means 0 extra damage, simple as that.

Um, what if 10 of those 25 is from you own? O.o?

The point is, and why I compared it to necro, is that in a solo setting the might is great and benefits everyone in that way. But, when you’re in a team you have access to group might, which you can easily cover the group to 25 stacks with 1 or a few people working together. That’s why I compared to Necro which in a solo setting does pretty well because of all the easy might access but in group play they scale poorly as they don’t have very many modifiers and stackable increases.

To put it in numerical form which I think makes it easiest to understand. Say might gives 1% per stack. So I do 4k dps base, I get 10 stacks of might making it 4.4k dps, alternatively I get a 10% damage increase doing 4.4kdps. Now put me in a group with 25 stacks of might on both options. The first already had 10 so only gets 15 additional stacks for a total of 25% increase and 5k total dps. The damage modifier stacks, so the 25% increase from might, getting the full 25 because he had no previous stacks would net you 4.4k * 1.25 = 5500dps.

So yeah, might is nice but not a replacement for damage modifiers and stackable additions.

This argument is flawed. If that is the case, then why bother adding Might stacks when the Thief use Unload? Or why even have traits like Signet of Power or Deadly Trapper? They exist because it benefits the Thief regardless whether they are in a team or not.

Besides going in stealth just to trigger Revealed Training is already a DPS loss, so the benefit that you think you’re getting from Revealed Training is nothing but imaginary.

It’s called opportunity cost and we’re comparing revealed training which is a +200 power increase that naturally happens in the D/D rotation of CnD into backstab every 2-3 auto chains.

I’m not saying + might effects are bad, it’s that saying “giving +might will work and make them just as good in PVE” which is simply false considering that the net gain would be zilch in high end PVE.

Simply put, losing Revealed training would result in a very rough estimate of 5% damage loss on D/D thief in a raid (or really any organize PVE group) setting even with the +10 might you offer as an alternative.

In raid, D/D simply auto-attack if you’re interested in overall damage. In the same time frame it takes D/D to CnD→BS, their auto attack could have dealt more damage. The same reason why Staff don’t use Vault as part of their rotation even though it deals more damage than BS in a shorter amount of time of execution.

The DPS loss in performing non-instant skill is not worth doing. The benefit you think you have under Revealed Training is a myth, because in that three seconds, you’re simply catching up to the DPS loss you’ve suffered performing CnD→BS. Besides, Revealed Training only benefits one full auto-attack chain then it’s gone.

In non-raid circumstances, Might outperforms the +200 power from Revealed Training — and raid is such a small percentage of the game in terms of size and impact.

Shadowstep in CnD is needed that’s why CnD→Steal works very well. That combination should be in CnD. Then again, that’s just a lame idea because what I really want is a completely 5 different skills exclusive for D/D (and P/P) using the Dual-Wield mechanic.

Straegen.2938:

They fixed Ankle Shots which dropped the range to 1050 then they removed Ricochet during HoT which left it at 900. I think they inadvertently nerfed the range trying to fix other issues.

The excuse they use on removing Ricochet is pathetic at most. If the bouncing is the problem, then how come Trick Shot (SB #1) still exist?

Outside of Bound, P/P has little defensive capability. This is fine but that does mean the weapon set needs to hit like a truck. Right now in group situations P/P is both a low DPS weapon set and offers no inherent defensive capability to remain elusive.

Even in duels it greatly under performs because of its lack of or limited defensive capability and how easy it is effectively block it with pets, clones, minions, etc.

They need to overhaul P/P first where even the auto-attack should use both main and off-hand weapons. Doing so will improve its overall DPS.

Jana.6831:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That really has nothing to do with the complaints especially the exaggerated one about not being able to do anything for 1s after BS.

The ICD is there for both weapon set once they use BS — and D/P uses BS. I mean it’s a free damage when they’re in stealth.

Why should I complain about something I don’t use if I don’t use it? Also D/D needs a bit longer to BS than D/P or better: it’s a different playstyle.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

What you’re implying is that D/P don’t need BS because their main damage comes from SS. SS cost 4 init while CnD cost 6 and they practically have the same base damage. SS has a positioning advantage while CnD is harder to use. So the argument that you’re really making is not about BS or its ICD, it’s about giving D/D the same usability as D/P.

No, it is about BS and SS – see above and see any other post I wrote to you. But I’ll leave it at that because repeating the same thing over and over isn’t my idea of having an intelligent conversation.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

For instance, if they reduce the cost of CnD to 5 and give it shadowstep, then they should both not have any problem with BS and its ICD. That’s my point — to solve this issue is to improve CnD.

I know, but why wouldn’t I play D/P if D/D does just the same but still inferior to D/P?

That’s why I said that in order to solve this disparity is to improve CnD. I’m comparing CnD and SS because they almost have the same base damage and the only problem is position and execution. I’m also not going to repeat myself because I know I’ve made it clear already.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

WvW is too big and was never polished. They’re in a hurry to release it without even thoroughly testing that every key profession mechanics (i.e. shadowstep, scorp wire) will work properly — but that’s a whole different issue.

I had this bug everywhere: PvE, WvW and PvP – just that in wvw everybody is on a different but the same server – prone to even more positioning bugs.

ETA: And that’s not a different issue – that is the main issue people have with the shadowattack cooldown – and that needs to be taken into account if bringing something like the cooldown into game. I was complaining yet again about my bug (which I complained about for 1,5 freaking years) and they fixed it then. Without this fix (~1 day after the patch) I was unable to hit anything. Be glad you hadn’t had it because otherwise you would get why a lot of people don’t think the cooldown is a good idea at all.
ETA²: And if you don’t believe me that there was a positioning issue and that it has been partly solved, read the patch notes – we had about 3-5 small patches after they brought the cooldown into game. And no: it is still not entirely fixed, mobs in pve still count as being hit from the front when I hit their back. But at least I don’t miss them anymore now.

It’s a different issue in terms to the topic of this thread. And I believe you, I have the same issue with WvW. Most of the time the game shows me that I made the jump but the game killed me because of fall damage.

Jerus.4350:

10 stacks of might while I have a ps warrior keeping me at 25 stacks of might gives me…. 0 stacks of additional might which means 0 extra damage, simple as that.

Um, what if 10 of those 25 is from you own? O.o?

The point is, and why I compared it to necro, is that in a solo setting the might is great and benefits everyone in that way. But, when you’re in a team you have access to group might, which you can easily cover the group to 25 stacks with 1 or a few people working together. That’s why I compared to Necro which in a solo setting does pretty well because of all the easy might access but in group play they scale poorly as they don’t have very many modifiers and stackable increases.

To put it in numerical form which I think makes it easiest to understand. Say might gives 1% per stack. So I do 4k dps base, I get 10 stacks of might making it 4.4k dps, alternatively I get a 10% damage increase doing 4.4kdps. Now put me in a group with 25 stacks of might on both options. The first already had 10 so only gets 15 additional stacks for a total of 25% increase and 5k total dps. The damage modifier stacks, so the 25% increase from might, getting the full 25 because he had no previous stacks would net you 4.4k * 1.25 = 5500dps.

So yeah, might is nice but not a replacement for damage modifiers and stackable additions.

This argument is flawed. If that is the case, then why bother adding Might stacks when the Thief use Unload? Or why even have traits like Signet of Power or Deadly Trapper? They exist because it benefits the Thief regardless whether they are in a team or not.

Besides going in stealth just to trigger Revealed Training is already a DPS loss, so the benefit that you think you’re getting from Revealed Training is nothing but imaginary.

Straegen.2938:

You have been arguing to keep Ricochet out because you think it is too powerful. You were listing off things it could do back then and I was stating at least one example of professions that can do it now (and better).

No, I want Ricochet back given the current meta. What I’m saying is that I understand why they took it out given how squishy everyone was back then.

Either Ricochet is a workable trait that isn’t OP in the current meta and that means ALL of the meta or it isn’t. Other thief weapon sets really don’t matter as to whether we should bring back a modified version of this trait. The thief is the only class that doesn’t have access to effective ranged AoE pressure.

You just basically repeated what I’ve said.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

With the current meta, restoring P/P Ricochet+AnkleShot to its former glory would not be as OP as it was back then when practically everyone were too squishy.

Unload at release:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Unload&oldid=309872

That’s not how it was in game. A lot of times, what shows in the tooltip is not what’s actually happening and wiki records the tooltip. So the tooltip might have shown 900 range, but I know it was 1200 range because I even swap back and forth with my shortbow without any range compensation. I even use P/P against the Claw of Jormag.

Ankle Shots never had the +150 listed in the description even though it did add +150 to the distance. Here is the Sept 2015 update to the Wiki which lists this as an “Anomaly”. They removed that “Anomaly” that same month.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Ankle_Shots&oldid=1075849

You’re right it was Ricochet.

Ricochet gained +150 in Sept 2014:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Ricochet_(trait)&oldid=880672

For about a year we had 1200 range if we took two traits but that was a bug or rather an “Anomaly”.

Whether it’s an anomaly or not, I was Unloading at 1200 range, that much is true. They nerfed the Pistol to 900 range and call it an “anomaly” or “bug” that needs to be fixed, just like other nerfs that the Thief received they call “bug”.

Feline was a trait and not a defensive skill.

Skill, talent, trait…what’s the difference? My point is, P/P relies on the refunded endurance for defense more than other weapon sets.

P/P is the only weapon set in the thief line that doesn’t have direct defensive abilities such as mobility, condition removal, stealth, evasion, etc.

So blind from Black Powder (Skill#5) doesn’t count? Black Powder was an OK defensive skill untill they nerf it because D/P was abusing it.

This is why in my opinion P/P needs more pressure for power builds as it lacks innate defense.

Totally agree.

That just means P/D (which also was gutted when Ricochet was removed) and Shortbow (which should have some nerfs reverted) also need love. A different problematic weapon set doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fix or improve another.

ArenaNet has no mental capacity to improve more than one weapon set at a time. Everytime they do that, they screw up.

Straegen.2938:

All things I can do on my Chrono right now and more effectively than P/P ever could and I don’t need another classes field to make it happen. The blind “trick” is very heavy. Several classes can do the field trick including Rapid Fire which hits harder than Unload. I don’t even get the turret thing… turret engis sucked. Yes P/P was good against Shatter Mesmers which isn’t a bad thing. PU Mesmers became roaming gods for a while since they had no direct counters.

What’s this argument got to do with Thief’s P/P?

You can only compare P/P to other options within the Thief’s profession. And there was no Chrono when P/P has 1200 range, Ricochet and Ankle Shot. And I’m 100% positive that if Thief gets 1200 range, Ricochet and Ankle Shot today (and Acro’s Feline Grace restored) that the QQ will never end.

You don’t get the “turret thing” that’s fine…it’s PvP thing.

The 1200 range was a bug and never listed as part of the trait. In the beginning the trait didn’t buff range.

lol, a bug? Are you serious? In the beginning, Pistol and Shortbow have 1200 range. With your limited knowledge and experience, I bet you didn’t even know about Shortbow’s homing arrows.

The trait was then buffed to have extra range two years after release. The buff stated 150 but they screwed up and it did 300. A year later they reverted and removed the 150 that was really 300. In the next major patch the 150 was restored because it was under performing.

What are you talking about? Pistol had 1200 range. They nerfed it to 900, but added a range increase when traited with Ankle Shot making the total range to 1050. Then they completely removed from Ankle Shot the range increase. There was never a bug that makes Pistol range to 1200 when traited. The only bug was on Ankle Shots giving the +150 range even though they’ve removed it. Now we have Pistol at 900 range even when traited Ankle Shots. The +150 range was never restored.

Like many, I served my time on various thief builds in WvW with thousands of hours in WvW mostly on a thief. I duel a lot, I roam a lot and I skirmish a lot. I ran P/P for a good bit of that. I may not be an expert on zergs but in my experience P/P was never a strong dueling weapon, was marginal in skirmish and basically a solid roaming weapon set that offered no defensive abilities and very little utility.

P/P used to have defensive abilities — Feline Grace (endurance refund) and a 1s tick of Black Powder. It’s not much, but it still better than what we have now.

P/P with 1200 range and Ricochet allows the Thief to defend the walls in WvW, now my spit goes farther than my bullets. WvW is not about solo roaming, it’s about setting ambushes and sieges, thus the bet set to bring in WvW are the ones that can deal AoE damage.

Oddly enough I always felt P/P with Ricochet was a balanced play set that neither felt weak or OP but was very entertaining which is why I was gobsmacked when they removed it for HoT.

Comparing P/P+Ricochet with other professions, sure it doesn’t look great. However if you compare P/P+Ricochet to P/D and Shortbow, it is far superior. Even now Shortbow is crap in terms of damage output, P/P still exceeds better in that regards. What you feel about P/P+Ricochet really doesn’t reflect the reality of it.

In their effort to make SB as AoE and P/P as single target, the result is what you see now. It’s part of ArenaNet’s screwed-up vision of forcing players to certain build and weapons rather than developing the game by addressing all the players needs. P/P didn’t need Might stacking, it needs reliable survivability and not a nerfed BP.

Jana.6831:

That aren’t completely different issues as D/P uses more SS than BS anyway – get what I mean? They don’t need backstabs anymore thus won’t really feel the ICD.

That really has nothing to do with the complaints especially the exaggerated one about not being able to do anything for 1s after BS.

The ICD is there for both weapon set once they use BS — and D/P uses BS. I mean it’s a free damage when they’re in stealth.

What you’re implying is that D/P don’t need BS because their main damage comes from SS. SS cost 4 init while CnD cost 6 and they practically have the same base damage. SS has a positioning advantage while CnD is harder to use. So the argument that you’re really making is not about BS or its ICD, it’s about giving D/D the same usability as D/P.

For instance, if they reduce the cost of CnD to 5 and give it shadowstep, then they should both not have any problem with BS and its ICD. That’s my point — to solve this issue is to improve CnD.

Call me old or oldfashioned, but I’d rather have the game like it was than having more powercreep added.

I don’t like powercreep either. A lot of the Thief’s issue can be solved by making Preparedness base line (max init 15) and reduce the cost of weapon skills to a normalizes total cost of 15. The max init and the total weapon skill cost should match.

But in the end: I have been crippled by a bug for 1,5 years and in the end was unable to kill anyone (it’s a bit better now, at least I’m able to kill thieves and don’t miss every CnD because my enemy caughed).
Now is the question: Is everything as it seems or is just everything bugged and we have no idea how combat really is? I guess especially wvw may be suffering from “positioning bugs”. So it’s a lot more than missing class balance as it seems.

WvW is too big and was never polished. They’re in a hurry to release it without even thoroughly testing that every key profession mechanics (i.e. shadowstep, scorp wire) will work properly — but that’s a whole different issue.

Jerus.4350:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cynz.9437:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Just delete Revealed Training. Nobody wants it when it was in GM and nobody wants it now that it’s in Master — Panic Strike is obviously more valuable for that slot. Then you can put Leeching in its former spot. Revealed is a complete opposite of stealth, thus it doesn’t belong in SA.

You forget majority of thieves…. actually pve and they probably won’t welcome such change.

The Devs can give the Thief 10 stacks of might for 5s after a stealth attack and call it Shadow Predator trait or something. This way it benefits both types of damage (power and condition) and not just power, then you can put that in Shadow Arts. I can assure you, there are so much of other buffs in PvE (easy Bloodlust +250 charge) that +200 power will not be missed.

Might means very little in high end PVE. It’s why Power Necro/Reaper has always done so poorly, sure they can self stack 25 might easily, but that nets them 0 extra damage when you’re getting it capped by a PS warrior or one of the other options. Coefficients on attacks, damage modifiers, and stacking stat boosts are where it’s at. So the 200 power would be much better for PVE. If you figure 200 power out of what, a buffed like 4k, that loss is about 5%, when you’re talking about ~30k dps potential that’s a 1500dps loss and would likely make D/D no longer good in the few situations where it was. Can’t say I’m a fan. Replace it with a strait 5% damage modifier and I still wouldn’t be a fan because then staff would get it all the time as well boosting that overall but then there wouldn’t be a secondary option, just staff.

Not sure what you’re talking about but 10 stacks of Might = 300 power. It also grants 300 condition damage. When applied to Thief, they benefit from both power and condition which is basically no change in their damage output. The real difference is that Might is usable for both power and condition build, thus +200 power does nothing for condition build — Might buff solves that problem.

Comparing Thief and Necro is not a valid comparison. Power Reaper might not benefit that much from stacks of Might, but I can assure you that Condition Reaper loves it.

Jana.6831:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

We all know that the problem with D/D is CnD. There is no difference between D/P and D/D in terms of Backstab. The difference is that D/P puts you in a much favorable position than what you’ll get from D/D — but we’re talking about the ICD here.

CnD inflicts 3 stacks of vulnerabilty, so if the CnD hit then the backstab is a difference. But there’s more to thief than backstabs and SS is far easier to land than a CnD and also a teleport – that’s why the ICD doesn’t hurt D/P that much.

My point is, both weapon set will feel the effect of the ICD. The fact that D/P has SS and D/D has CnD are completely different issues. We could all agree that CnD needs a built-in shadowstep for starter and in addition, reduced casting time. Which as I mentioned, has nothing to do with the ICD anymore.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The passive skills are there for a reason

Yes, PvE

and as a Thief we just need to learn to deal with it.

We’re expected to play PvE.
I got what you were going at with that – still I wanted to explain why D/D suffers a bit more than D/P.

D/D suffers more than D/P, that has been a fact for a long time now. However, the fix should be focused on other skills in D/D and not the stealth attack’s ICD.

Cynz.9437:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Just delete Revealed Training. Nobody wants it when it was in GM and nobody wants it now that it’s in Master — Panic Strike is obviously more valuable for that slot. Then you can put Leeching in its former spot. Revealed is a complete opposite of stealth, thus it doesn’t belong in SA.

You forget majority of thieves…. actually pve and they probably won’t welcome such change.

The Devs can give the Thief 10 stacks of might for 5s after a stealth attack and call it Shadow Predator trait or something. This way it benefits both types of damage (power and condition) and not just power, then you can put that in Shadow Arts. I can assure you, there are so much of other buffs in PvE (easy Bloodlust +250 charge) that +200 power will not be missed.

DeceiverX.8361:

If you play D/P, it’s not a problem. If you play D/D, it is. I don’t whiff the air. But there’s also no reason why my enemies should get second/third/fourth chances from my attacks on passive skills and abilities when I had to do my best to just land CnD.

It’s really just that simple, and a perspective that needs to be recognized before debate.

We all know that the problem with D/D is CnD. There is no difference between D/P and D/D in terms of Backstab. The difference is that D/P puts you in a much favorable position than what you’ll get from D/D — but we’re talking about the ICD here.

The passive skills are there for a reason and as a Thief we just need to learn to deal with it. If the Dev thinks that Thief needs to bypass those passives, then they should grant Unhindered (cannot be blocked or evaded) to stealth attacks. Even then, it has nothing to do with the ICD anymore.

It would be nice if it is a Thief exclusive feature to activate skills while in the air.

I always wanted to avoid fall damage by shadowstepping to a target before hitting the ground. Or use Impairing Daggers while jumping backwards.

It would give the profession a lot of appeal and a higher skill level to master.

Straegen.2938:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Karl said that players want the increased damage and not the RNG bounce. That’s BS and you know it, everyone who uses P/P knows it. The trait gives increased pistol damage at the same time as the bounce and it’s the bounce that makes it great, not the damage.

Devs said it was removed because the RNG made the skill too difficult to balance. They even had to buff it after the trait rework so that its range was extended and it hit more reliably.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I gave you my first hand experience on how I can clear a node full of Eng turrets with my P/P Ricochet+AnkleShot build when it used to have 1200 range. I can destroy the turrets on the back without getting in range of it just by targeting the nearest turret.

I have several builds from other classes that dish AoE damage like no tomorrow. My Tempest FA build is disgusting and will fry an entire upgraded camp in about 5s.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

With the current meta, restoring P/P Ricochet+AnkleShot to its former glory would not be as OP as it was back then when practically everyone were too squishy.

Again it was never OP. The skill existed in the game since Pre-Release and nobody was afraid of it. It was openly mocked for a long time as gimmick weapon set inferior to even D/D. Even after they removed it the Thief forum was dumbstruck as to why:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Ricochet-gone/first

Have you blinded the entire enemy team during team fight while staying at the back line Unloading while standing on Black Powder?

Have you applied burn condition to the entire enemy team during team fight while staying at the back line Unloading while your teammate Ele drops a Ring of Fire?

Have you taken out all turrets, all illusions while staying out of range?

My point is, I lived through it. P/P may not have been popular because compared to weapon sets like S/D and S/P (yes S/P was broken), it pales in comparison. However, it is the best ranged weapon set, way better than Shortbow.

So tell me this, if it was about the RNG excuse, then why did they also reduced P/P’s range from 1200 to 900? In fact, at one point Ankle Shot makes Pistol range to 1050. Speaking of Ankle Shot, why remove that also?

You can drink the cool-aide they are serving if you so choose, but for someone who used P/P from the very beginning knows fully well that the excuses given about P/P are as credible as their excuses for botching Acrobatics (“too much evade” my kitten.

Menmaro.4607:

thankitten.6307:

This is a joke of a thread. If you know you are going to miss, stow weapon mid back-stab and no one second ICD. Now can we talk about relevant things?

If we knew we were gonna miss, we wouldnt have started the backstab attack then… there are so many factors that go into missing a backstab that you can’t keep track of. The issue with this 1 second cd is that it makes gameplay way too clunky. If I initiate a backstab it means I want to get revealed at that point and do a chunk of damage. If I miss the backstab and have to wait for one second, then Im in stealth possibly in some sort of AoE that I wanna either get out of or down the enemy asap so that I can get out of it.

Another thing is that people now as soon as they see a theif go into stealth will dodge roll. You know how hard it is to hit a backstab when someone dodgerolled away knowing you only have one shot?

Before you start to incite an argument for 0 reason, look at why people are angry at the nerf and then judge whether it’s justified or not. From the looks of your post you just read the title and drew your own conclusion.

Backstab is not the only Stealth Attack. They can dodge roll away from Sneak Attack (Pistol SA) but they’ll still get hit and receive bleeding condition. I have my backstab either hit, blocked, or evaded, but I never miss (as is backstabbing in air) because it requires a great deal of experience to properly time the Backstab. If I can see that my target is too far, I’ll reposition in stealth instead of chasing for Backstab. A lot of the issues are simply L2P Thief and other are exaggerations.

So what if you only have one shot to land a Backstab? Why should you get more than one? We only have one chance to land an interrupt, but you don’t see any complaints about it. Let’s be honest here, no matter how much I tried to recreate the scenario where people are getting stuck in the 1s ICD, I just can’t get myself stuck. My Thief just resumes to auto-attack after a stealth attack, thus I question the merit of the claim.

Just delete Revealed Training. Nobody wants it when it was in GM and nobody wants it now that it’s in Master — Panic Strike is obviously more valuable for that slot. Then you can put Leeching in its former spot. Revealed is a complete opposite of stealth, thus it doesn’t belong in SA.

Straegen.2938:

Ricochet was removed because of its complex Bounce mechanics not because it was OP. As one dev put it, “too much RNG”. Virtually nobody was complaining about P/P prior to this which is why so many players were confused and kittened when it was removed. It was not then nor would it be now the strongest weapon set for a thief.

Karl said that players want the increased damage and not the RNG bounce. That’s BS and you know it, everyone who uses P/P knows it. The trait gives increased pistol damage at the same time as the bounce and it’s the bounce that makes it great, not the damage.

I gave you my first hand experience on how I can clear a node full of Eng turrets with my P/P Ricochet+AnkleShot build when it used to have 1200 range. I can destroy the turrets on the back without getting in range of it just by targeting the nearest turret. I can kill the Eng behind his turrets without getting in range. Nobody can get near me without teleport or jump due to constant Cripple on crits. P/P has no rival at 1200 range in dealing damage in a short amount of time. P/P was a dominating set before they nerfed it to the ground.

With the current meta, restoring P/P Ricochet+AnkleShot to its former glory would not be as OP as it was back then when practically everyone were too squishy.

babazhook.6805:

I was toying with a new condition p/d build wherein I brough my condition duration up to 80+ percent. This was not intended to milk more ticks out of the damaging traits as it was to increase durations of weakness/crippled and Immob.

The intent was to see how much Immob sources I could get while still piling up the damage.

Prior to this I rarely used Body shot. The Ini cost to benefit ratio just not there and when i did use it I was trying to catch up to fleeing enemies more than as a defensive measure.

Well with a higher duration it not all bad from a defensive viewpoint. If in trouble you can immob the enemy and open range. The problem of course is the duration just not long enough in most builds to use as a defensive measure. I really think if they looked at the number two and changed in some manner we could address that remaining issue.

I’ve been experimenting with Rune of Evasion and Lotus Training with my P/P CS/Acro/DD. It’s still on the low dmg side so I’m still tweaking to find the right gear combination, just like you, I’m trying to extend the cripple and immob duration, but not to a point where I have to sacrifice other types of survivability. Sigil of Incapacitation is basically Ankle Shot and when paired with Sigil of Ice, it gives P/P a great deal of survivability so 50+ percent is enough for my build. It’s just lame that I have to go through all these troubles when other weapon sets have survival skills in the set itself.

EDIT: typos

DeceiverX.8361:

And then the game would be truly broken rofl.

Sometimes it’s necessary to break it down, then build it up again. To be honest, the Thief in its current state is out of whack that needs to be redefined and then polished. Patching it up at this point will not fix the Thief — there’s just too many issues.

Straegen.2938:

P/P has never been OP and even with suggested changes will not be OP. Nobody to my knowledge ever complained about the weapon set being too strong especially with D/P sitting there and needing no extra traits to be that good.

I’ve used P/P for a long time when Ricochet (and Ankle Shot) existed and I can tell you this; it kills pets, minions, turrets, and illusions too well while dealing damage to the main target. That alone is enough evidence for ArenaNet to get rid of Ricochet especially when they want P/P to be a high damage single-target weapon set — AoE is given to Shortbow. The fact has been accepted that P/P is a single-target weapon set. Do I want Ricochet back? Of course I do. But is it healthy for the game? Of course not.

Now accepting the fact that P/P is a single-target weapon set, then they have to improve it to be better at 1v1 fights. This means that they need to include some kind of defensive mechanism within the set — evade, shadowstep, blind (no not the current nerfed Black Powder, but a reliable blinding skill), anything. Right now, all it does is deal damage then die.

babazhook.6805:

borgs.6103:

Conspiracy Theory: Anet added the 1 second ICD because of how shortbow stealth attacks will behave with Rending Shade.

I do not believe this the case. I have read speculation by otherws claiming the reason for the change is rending shade but see no evidence fromn a dev for that.

If they were concerned about this they could have added a 1 second cooldown to Rending shade much like we have on Guarded initiation, driven fortitude and the like.

My theory is that they are working on removing the lazy Revealed debuff. It would all make sense if that is the case.