Guild Wars 2

DeceiverX.8361:

I’d be hard-pressed to believe a dev is or has been interacting with Teef.

If one has, I’m pretty concerned with the way your guild sees engaging or reasonable gameplay mechanisms, and how the underpowered and the overpowered things things have not been addressed.

People are probably connecting because of the group lamentation of the nerfs and the overall state of the profession.

The purpose of the guild is to exchange ideas. It’s up to the Devs to decide which idea(s) to implement. So even if a Dev is involved in the guild or forum conversation, or they’re simply taking notes, it would be foolish to think that the exchange of ideas can actually sway the Dev to make changes, based on the information they’ve gathered, a certain way. They simply consider the idea and decide what to do with it or even discard it.

As far as what we can tell from the previous patch notes, they have made changes in total opposite of an idea being discussed, implementing a hot fix on a game play techniques to nerf the playstyle, nerfing a skill/trait based on the satirical “Nerf” Thread, and implementation of actual suggestion — in addition to actually giving Withdraw its rightful 10% heal boost after months of not actually implementing the boost when it was first announced and of constant reminder in the forum and beyond.

As expected, due to conflicting point of views and the different levels of Thief game play and play styles, the changes to the profession will be all over the place, which to me is one of the proof that they are at least trying to please everyone. However, they should probably just remove all the unnecessary restrictions (e.g. weapon specific traits) to open the profession to all the different kinds of builds and play styles. This would at least remove the necessity to make changes to please a specific demographic.

As a matter of fact, “to Revealed or not to Revealed” is still a valid conflicting perspectives with a lot of ideas supporting both sides — it’s a battle between Order vs. Freedom.

TL;DR — if you pick 3 ideas out of 100, chances are those 3 will not be related nor cohesive thus things might not appear to be reasonable nor logical.

Wargameur.6950:

Maybe they are devs in disguise secretly playing our class^^

Hah, I do have my suspicions, but I could be wrong.

If you build high DPS (meaning boring auto-attacks), then SA is a DPS loss for that build and you’re better off with evade as defense. That’s why SA sucks for them.

If you build burst, then SA is the best in delivering a burst damage which includes a reliable defensive mechanic.

However, in any form of PvP, stealth is very easy to counter and more often the counter is self-inflicted that running SA doesn’t make any sense. That’s where the dilemma comes in. Stealth + burst is a really good combo in PvP, however it comes with a high risk that a single counter can destroy the whole stealth build. So should you take the risk and run SA, or opt-in for a more safer build built around evade? In any case, SA is a good traitline, but rather limiting in build diversity.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Wolfric.9380:

i find the idea of swaping P 5 with SB 5 very tempting. Would be a huge change in thief builds changing the “flow”. Don´t think such changes are considdered.
I feel that the mobility fits P 2 even better so rotate skills. SB5 —> P2 --> P5 —> SB5
Would be huge and many would complain D(S)/P is killed with that but i would like it :-)
It would actually make P/x the top kiting weapon .

However thats also a nerf to all x/p which combo off the field with 4 or, 1-5 in the case of p/p

It’s a nerf to s/p and p/p which used DD’s bounding dodger to gain access to stealth. The whole reason BD is a leap finisher was intended to buff those sets, not to buff SB.

Great point! I didn’t see this because I was defending P/P but the OP is trying to remove stealth from D/P…sneaky nerfing thief.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

A good play lay BP then use unload, for many blinds, such wow.

You only need the bullets to pass through the field, you don’t want to be standing on it.

You can drop the smoke field and step out of it opposite from your target and keep them blinded. If you stay in the field, they’ll simply auto-attack you from the outside of the AoE. Using the smoke field as a wall is a very effective strategy. Always stay behind the field, not in it.

Kageseigi.2150:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Contrary to the OP’s premise, P/P doesn’t need to teleport in, in fact it needs a teleport out. This proposition will ruin P/P once again with a BP “buff/nerf”. I take personal issue on unnecessary nerfs to P/P.

Black Powder would not be a Shadow Shot clone. It would be used just as Infiltrator’s Arrow is used… to reposition and escape. It will be the teleport out, although it could be used as a teleport in, even though I have no idea why you would use it that way unless you were planning to switch to a melee set afterwards.

The very fact that this suggested change can teleport a P/P user in is the problem. What P/P needs from BP is this; it drops an AoE smoke field and evade-leap/ss backwards. Obvious what P/P needs will needlessly empower (or nerf) both S/P and D/P.

P/P don’t need a teleport in or a skill that can teleport them in and the current BP is very beneficial for P/P despite the fact that it only ticks once every 2 seconds.

So a P/P Thief would engage from range as normal. If an enemy got too close, the Thief would Black Powder away from the enemy while still being able to engage with P/P instead of having to switch to Shortbow to escape. He would simply escape/reposition with P/P now.

That’s too clunky. What P/P needs is something like Disabling Shot (SB#3) — a leap or shadowstep away that includes an evade frame.

As I mentioned before, I would also propose that Body Shot be given a Blind due to Black Powder losing the ability to Blind while maintaining distance. Both skills would gain much more use.

That’s another thing. Spending 4-init to blind is not an ideal solution for P/P or P/D. Body shot just need 3 things — 1) cheaper cost, 2) faster projectile, 3) instant cast.

babazhook.6805:

3>Substantial stacks coming off the dancing dagger of damaging conditions. One or two stacks will just not do it. INI runs out too fast if relying one one skill to apply the damage doubly more so under your “DB is just an evade” scenario where INI burned just to survive.

That will make P/D a condition damage powerhouse, so why use D/D after all that?

There is no way to change 1-2-4-5 without harming other weapon set, there’s just no way. D/D and P/P need to have their very own set of 5 weapon skills otherwise it will be an endless back-and-forth-suggestions that really leads to nowhere.

It seems that the Dev has set us up to dance in eternal tango.

Contrary to the OP’s premise, P/P doesn’t need to teleport in, in fact it needs a teleport out. This proposition will ruin P/P once again with a BP “buff/nerf”. I take personal issue on unnecessary nerfs to P/P.

This is not a simple one-sided process. In many of my post, I try my best to consider other professions that will be affected by any changes in Thief in hope that this is also the same process that ArenaNet is taking. In any typical balance discussion, each profession needs to be represented and there are things that certain change to Thief will not be acceptable to other players of other profession. In this case, a discussion of compromise is made.

Now, with this in mind, as a Thief player, I know that the Thief always have received the short-end of the stick. While the Devs are compromising the design of the Thief, other professions get what they want. Therefore, any changes that are proposed to improve the Thief have always faced scrutiny from other professions.

All the perceived “negative impact” in improving the Thief are mostly unfounded. Take the fear that the Thief has too many evade, for instance, that lead to the decimation of the Acrobatics line to only later on introduced an Elite Spec with 3 dodges and high endurance refill capability. This change is driven by compromises from other professions and the addition of the Elite Spec simply brought the Thief back from its unnerfed version — there were no overall impact change to the Thief profession.

- Impact change to consider, for example, is adding another weapon without requiring a specific spec (e.g. Staff needs DD)— there were many weapon ideas that have been suggested already.

- Another example is unbind stealth attack from stealth, meaning those skill requires positioning instead of stealth -OR- add a new Elite Skill that allows the Thief the benefit of being in stealth without going invisible (triggering on stealth procs and flipping the Dagger #1 to Backstab) for a duration -OR- simply get rid of Revealed.

- Lastly, for now, reduce the total cost of weapon skills and increase the base initiative pool to 15.

To me, all those will improve my enjoyment in playing my Thieves (I have 4).

TheNickPrice.8457:

Much thought Sir Vincent…

Outstealth in PvP: If you meet up with enemy thief decapping your home lets say and he decides to stay for a duel it’s a nice addition to your bag of tricks, you can also use it to your advantage in other situations, ex.) beat thief at your home, pass through mid -> far for decap unnoticed due to sb speed on maps like legacy you can take the quickest route (through mid) while remaining unnoticed.

The point is, that’s already doable without Improv. If the stolen item from a Thief grants shadowstep instead of stealth, I’d be a true believer of Improv. Stealth has no value in PvP. The single use of the item is more than enough. The main usefulness of Improv. is its ability to reset utility skills even if you choose it for other reasons.

stunlock guardians: quite easy, if traited they have what 3 seconds of stab, triggered on their block so ur not gunnah be hitting through it anyways? if dodged… dunno what to say but if u have troubles landing a 1/4 skill, no offence, but you may need to revisit how/when you are using your skills

If a Guardian gets stun-locked, then they should revisit how to play a Guardian.

boon from Mesmer only useful when you see them? A. meta pvp builds are not using any stealth, B. if you can’t land your steal again, revisit how/when you are using your skills.

Right…because every Mesmer uses the meta build…ok.

Revs: it allows you to deal out 4k damage per 4×2 is 8 plus slow is a nice little addition though can be quickly cleansed the real use of the skill is to be able to keep pressure up while playing outside sword skill range (unrelenting and precision) as it takes two burst rotations to down a rev due to infuse light or crystal hibernation (assuming you opened with basi venom on the latter)

If you say so.

either way, as I made it clear in my first post, as well as this follow up, it’s opinion and play style that opens up the want and usefulness that improv brings, I never claimed it to be better then exec, I did however state that I myself, find improv much more flexible, granting you understand the options it opens up utility wise and how you can change your approach to fights both in team fights and 1-1.

Disclaimer: I mentioned team fights, no I don’t think thief belongs in the thick of things, yes I do believe improv can help turn the tides by situations I have previously stated however by being aware of your surroundings and taking advantage of specific stolen skills.

again I will state, no it is not the be all end all must have trait. Yes it is a viable choice and do not feel obliged to take exec, perhaps it doesn’t fit your playstyle, that’s cool friend! but don’t snuff your nose at the trait because of it, thieves have enough damage multipliers and in my case, I choose utility. Opinions man, that’s what keeps things fresh!

However, you are responding to a post in discussion of the limited choices based on build that certain build has no choice but to pick either a build specific trait or weapon specific trait. If you choose to take Improv. then that is indeed your choice based on your opinion of the trait, but it will not be considered as best in slot because it is fairly obvious, backed with mathematical facts, that Executioner is best in slot for power build. As for condition damage build, there is but one choice, Potent.

TheNickPrice.8457:

…the double steal skills allow you to:

- outstealth other thieves
- stunlock guardians
- double boon fun from mesmers
- lol at revs

Outstealth in PvP? What’s the point? Stun lock guardians? Unlikely. The second stun is more than likely dodged. Double boon from Mesmer? Only useful if you can actually see them. Revs? Please.

In a typical power build, CS takes care of things if target is above 50% and Exec takes over when target is below 50%, thus it is best in slot.

While wielding a Spear underwater, it is far easier to proc seaweed salad using Shadow Assault since you can gather more seaweed that way than using Bound. Just be careful, too much seaweed will root you.

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Swindlers equilibrium remains the same save sword damage increases to 10 percent/

I’m personally not a big fan of any trait that is weapon specific since not only limits the choices from 3 to 2 for non-sword, but it also pigeon hole any build that uses a sword. This trait should function with any weapon.

Here’s my fix to this;
Swindler’s Equilibrium – Evading an attack recharges Steal by 10% (no CD, no weapon boost)

Keeping this trait as simple as possible will make it a good choice for Thief that likes to take risks. Triggering a multiple evade on a single dodge should be rewarding. It’s a good trait for builds that doesn’t carry Trickery.

I disagree for a number of reasons.

First and foremost ascribing a trait to a particular weapon exists throughout all classes. If you look at warrior as example they have a trait for virtually every weapon type. Given they specific to that weapon than they can be boosted in power and not becoming overwhelmig. If they were generic then people could take two or three such traits and make an overpowering weaponset.

This would lead to having to scale down the benefits of each which in turn means the only way one can benefit would be taking them all.

As example imagine Greatsword on warrior getting its might stacking AND 20 percent damage bonus that hammer gets against stunned foes. That way too much.

The weapon specific traits only made sense before they consolidated the trait lines. If the trait is weapon specific, it means that the build is purposely weaker if the trait is not chosen, which limits that choice certain build has — in other words, they are pigeon holed. So if such weapon specific trait is essential to a build using specific weapon, it makes zero sense to put it up as a choice — why not just make it base line for that weapon?

If the Dev wants Hammer to gain extra damage against stunned foes, then they can just simply consolidate all the weapon specific effect into one trait and call it Weapon Mastery. Then they can list all the bonuses each weapon receives, similar to how Master of Corruption works where each skill has different effect, they can make one for each weapon has different effect.

Weapon Mastery:
- Gain 20% damage against stunned foe while wielding a hammer.
- Gain 20% crit chance against bleeding foe while wielding a sword.
- Gain 10% damage while wielding a greatsword.
- etc.

My point is, the current weapon specific traits limits the choices specially now that we can only choose one of the three traits. They either make the trait generic or consolidate all weapon specific effects into one trait subsequently opening trait slots for improvements.

Now to thief and swindlers. If I took my d/d deathblossom Condition build used in conjunction with evades off Lotus training and traited your version of swindlers, I would easily get steal times to under 5 seconds. That way too powerful.

The numbers can always be tweaked for balance. If you are willing to spend initiatives and endurance to reduce the Steal CD and you perfectly executed the evades, then that’s not too powerful at all. It requires skills that deserves the reward. Besides, it’s not something you can do continuously, there will be times that you’ll have to wait for init and endurance to refill.

I have no issues with weapon specific traits as it means those traits can be meaningful when taken.

That also means that it should be best in slot…the very definition of pigeon holing.

Hardly best in slot. The current iteration is 7 percent damage. Many people prefer HTC even thos eusing sword. Add a Resistance to GI and many would take GI.

If I am going D/P power in DA potent poison and Improv are likely not best in slot. I would take Executioner. If I am building a condition build and using DA it pretty obvious potent poison my choice. That hardly pigeon holing when my condition build (or power build in the former) takes the trait best suited for that build.

That’s the very definition of best-in-slot or pigeon holing. If you build power, you have no other choice but to take the trait that is best-in-slot which is Exec…no point on taking other trait since there’s really no other choice but Exec. Then if you build condition damage, it’s the same thing, there’s no other choice but Potent.

The traits needs to be more open so regardless of your build choice, you always have 3 traits to choose from — not one.

See mug / trappers respite/ dagger mastery as another example. Just because one uses daggers does not mean one must or would take that skill. Even a condition build using daggers might prefer trappers respite.

Oh come on, every Thief knows that Mug is the only choice for non-condition build and trapper’s respite for condition build. Dagger mastery is a hit and miss, although I use it, there are times that I rather take Mug for my condition build because of the heal.

A skill like SE in the SA line is pigeon holing as any build type is likley to take that over the other two.

We will have to disagree again.

What we have is an illusion of choice and every power build and every condition build takes the same traits to be efficient.

If Dagger Training is remade to become Thief Training, for example, and has the following effect;
- Thief Training – Attacks has 33% chance to apply the effect of a venom you have equipped (multiple equipped venom will be chosen randomly).

This trait will be open to any build. If you bring condition damage venom, this is a good choice. If you build power and bring Basi, this is still a good choice. In addition, it’s not weapon or build specific. It is a good choice no matter what build you pick.

Shadow Embrace is not pigeon holing because it doesn’t force the player to make specific build nor take specific weapon.

Wargameur.6950:

My post isn’t really clear. It’s not about the DH but the statement that Staff is a better weapon in this current meta.

When fighting a DH, it’s all about applying pressure and staff might have a lot of burst, but it’s not very good at applying pressure without endangering the Thief in the process.

Keep in mind that in order to apply pressure using a staff, the Thief needs to sacrifice a lot of survivability, either armor or HP, which means, they are an easy kill for DH.

The only real practical way to continuously pressure a DH is to build condition damage, this way the Thief can deal high condition damage while staying tanky. It’s not a fun build to make, but it’s the build where ArenaNet wants the Thief to be.

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Swindlers equilibrium remains the same save sword damage increases to 10 percent/

I’m personally not a big fan of any trait that is weapon specific since not only limits the choices from 3 to 2 for non-sword, but it also pigeon hole any build that uses a sword. This trait should function with any weapon.

Here’s my fix to this;
Swindler’s Equilibrium – Evading an attack recharges Steal by 10% (no CD, no weapon boost)

Keeping this trait as simple as possible will make it a good choice for Thief that likes to take risks. Triggering a multiple evade on a single dodge should be rewarding. It’s a good trait for builds that doesn’t carry Trickery.

I disagree for a number of reasons.

First and foremost ascribing a trait to a particular weapon exists throughout all classes. If you look at warrior as example they have a trait for virtually every weapon type. Given they specific to that weapon than they can be boosted in power and not becoming overwhelmig. If they were generic then people could take two or three such traits and make an overpowering weaponset.

This would lead to having to scale down the benefits of each which in turn means the only way one can benefit would be taking them all.

As example imagine Greatsword on warrior getting its might stacking AND 20 percent damage bonus that hammer gets against stunned foes. That way too much.

The weapon specific traits only made sense before they consolidated the trait lines. If the trait is weapon specific, it means that the build is purposely weaker if the trait is not chosen, which limits that choice certain build has — in other words, they are pigeon holed. So if such weapon specific trait is essential to a build using specific weapon, it makes zero sense to put it up as a choice — why not just make it base line for that weapon?

If the Dev wants Hammer to gain extra damage against stunned foes, then they can just simply consolidate all the weapon specific effect into one trait and call it Weapon Mastery. Then they can list all the bonuses each weapon receives, similar to how Master of Corruption works where each skill has different effect, they can make one for each weapon has different effect.

Weapon Mastery:
- Gain 20% damage against stunned foe while wielding a hammer.
- Gain 20% crit chance against bleeding foe while wielding a sword.
- Gain 10% damage while wielding a greatsword.
- etc.

My point is, the current weapon specific traits limits the choices specially now that we can only choose one of the three traits. They either make the trait generic or consolidate all weapon specific effects into one trait subsequently opening trait slots for improvements.

Now to thief and swindlers. If I took my d/d deathblossom Condition build used in conjunction with evades off Lotus training and traited your version of swindlers, I would easily get steal times to under 5 seconds. That way too powerful.

The numbers can always be tweaked for balance. If you are willing to spend initiatives and endurance to reduce the Steal CD and you perfectly executed the evades, then that’s not too powerful at all. It requires skills that deserves the reward. Besides, it’s not something you can do continuously, there will be times that you’ll have to wait for init and endurance to refill.

I have no issues with weapon specific traits as it means those traits can be meaningful when taken.

That also means that it should be best in slot…the very definition of pigeon holing.

Luto.1938:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I forgot one last thing: Shadow Form

Ooooh yes! Shadow form s/s with a #3 move similar to Unrelenting Assault on Revanent! Just imagine s/s thief fighting like Night Crawler from the X-Men combined with Daredevil dodges. Mwhahaha.

Actually, using X-men for reference, Shadow Form will function like Shadow Cat’s power.

babazhook.6805:

Swindlers equilibrium remains the same save sword damage increases to 10 percent/

I’m personally not a big fan of any trait that is weapon specific since not only limits the choices from 3 to 2 for non-sword, but it also pigeon hole any build that uses a sword. This trait should function with any weapon.

Here’s my fix to this;
Swindler’s Equilibrium – Evading an attack recharges Steal by 10% (no CD, no weapon boost)

Keeping this trait as simple as possible will make it a good choice for Thief that likes to take risks. Triggering a multiple evade on a single dodge should be rewarding. It’s a good trait for builds that doesn’t carry Trickery.

babazhook.6805:

Acrobatics is almost there. A few tweaks and one or two major changes can put it over the top.

Expeditious dodger Fine as is.

Pain response Fine as Is
Instant reflexes Make it a deception

This is more like a Trick since it has nothing to do with Deception, which mainly about shadow arts.

Vigorous recovery REmove replace with.

Strike from shadows.

The next attack after a shadowstep is unblockable. (10 second ICD)

Shadowstep related trait doesn’t belong in Acro. If this triggers after a dodge, that is more appropriate and actually a good combo.

Don’t stop becomes a Physical

No good. It’ll be unusable once DD rolls out. Physical Supremacy grants access to anything physical and it will lose benefit from Brawler Tenacity.

Assassins reward Add gain +100 to distance of all shadowsteps.

Another shadowstep related. Although I like that trait, I believe it doesn’t belongs in Acro.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

??? Yes because acro is more of a safe mode then sa, there is 2 passives in acro.

Yeah it was a sarcasm, just in case someone else missed it;

Azukas.1426:

…he replied, “You have to cut the cord from the SA trait line. It’s a crutch that bad thieves rely on because they have no reaction times.”

He the told me he runs Acrobatics, Trickery, and Daredevil.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Trick is a crutch that bad thieves rely on because they have no mental capacity to manage their Initiative pool.

You have to move to CS/DA/Acro to remove all crutches.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Everything from HoT except power reaper is an abomination, daredevil included.

I hate the fact that you’re making a statement that I have nothing to say but to agree.

Are you really so callous as to think you should inherently disagree with everything I say because we disagree on other subjects?

Obviously I made that post because I don’t think that I should be inherently in disagreement with you on everything. Yet, here we are, in a disagreement again.

Not disagreeing or intending to be confrontational. Just kind of shocked that despite our previous bouts you’d think we’d never be able to see eye-to-eye on anything.

Azukas.1426:

Jana.6831:

No, azukas talks about condi as to him/her D/D is a typical condi set and was never meant to be power OR EVEN IF WE HAVE TO GO WITH THE FLOW AND STOP COMPLAINING ALREADY

Then I fought a power d/d thief and realized that your weaponset of choice actually has build variety.

See I asked this thief about how he makes D/D viable, and he replied, “You have to cut the cord from the SA trait line. It’s a crutch that bad thieves rely on because they have no reaction times.”

He the told me he runs Acrobatics, Trickery, and Daredevil.

That’s more of a crutch build than SA ever was. $10 says the guy runs IR, too.

Daredevil is the epitome of crutches for thief. Actually, I’d reckon it’s probably the most potent set of crutches out of every profession/mechanic in the game except for dire geared-condi mesmer.

In all seriousness, nobody gets to brag about dropping crutches until they move to builds like DA/CS/Tr.

Does Da/Tr/Cs with P/P count as no crutches? Lol

Trick is a crutch that bad thieves rely on because they have no mental capacity to manage their Initiative pool.

You have to move to CS/DA/Acro to remove all crutches.

But Acro provides vigor and shorter steal CD, and a passive dodge, and heals on attacking or Ini and Regen on dodges which is even more of a crutch.

So the only non crutch solution is to only run DA/CS without third line activated.

lol, you caught on fast. When this is done, every trait line is a crutch.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Everything from HoT except power reaper is an abomination, daredevil included.

I hate the fact that you’re making a statement that I have nothing to say but to agree.

Are you really so callous as to think you should inherently disagree with everything I say because we disagree on other subjects?

Obviously I made that post because I don’t think that I should be inherently in disagreement with you on everything. Yet, here we are, in a disagreement again.

Not disagreeing or intending to be confrontational. Just kind of shocked that despite our previous bouts you’d think we’d never be able to see eye-to-eye on anything.

Azukas.1426:

Jana.6831:

No, azukas talks about condi as to him/her D/D is a typical condi set and was never meant to be power OR EVEN IF WE HAVE TO GO WITH THE FLOW AND STOP COMPLAINING ALREADY

Then I fought a power d/d thief and realized that your weaponset of choice actually has build variety.

See I asked this thief about how he makes D/D viable, and he replied, “You have to cut the cord from the SA trait line. It’s a crutch that bad thieves rely on because they have no reaction times.”

He the told me he runs Acrobatics, Trickery, and Daredevil.

That’s more of a crutch build than SA ever was. $10 says the guy runs IR, too.

Daredevil is the epitome of crutches for thief. Actually, I’d reckon it’s probably the most potent set of crutches out of every profession/mechanic in the game except for dire geared-condi mesmer.

In all seriousness, nobody gets to brag about dropping crutches until they move to builds like DA/CS/Tr.

Does Da/Tr/Cs with P/P count as no crutches? Lol

Trick is a crutch that bad thieves rely on because they have no mental capacity to manage their Initiative pool.

You have to move to CS/DA/Acro to remove all crutches.

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Adding evade frame to Shadowstep will solve a lot of these issues. Shadow Refuge should be the skill that grants Resistance plus Stability.

The problem I have with evade frames is along the same lines as why I am against adding more blocks to a Guardian.

We have a pile of skills with evade frames AND effects like Regen/ini gain/vigor/heal/condition cleanse along with that damage mitigation that happens on every evade.

Now adding an evade frame to a skill that has such a long cooldown would on its own be no big deal but when coupled with all the other skills and traits that both evade and proc on evade are something different.

As example Bandits defense has a very low cooldown and is very usable yet I do not consider it as OP on a thief. It our one and only block and we do not have any things that proc on a block.

I’m sorry but I don’t buy this because we have RFI as utility and it’s fine. Shadowstep (ability) and Shadowstep (skill) needs to evolve and evasion frame for the SS ability is one way to do it (I’m ok with Invulnerability frame too..we’re talking about stepping into shadows here). Adding Resistance to a skill that already cleanses is a bit much for a single skill. Since it would be the only skill that has Resistance, it will be a mandatory pick — however, it is a selfish skill. Giving Resitance to Shadow Refuge can benefit others, not just the Thief.

Give that same BD to a Guardian and it massively OP as they have so many blocks already and so many effects that proc when a block occurs.

A thief has very little access to resistance so much like that BD it not going to get to the point where like a warrior they can have it up 100 percent of the time.

Fair point.

If offers a benefit that gives a valid at the moment choice after the forst part of the step used. Do I remain here and just let the Resistance run out and lose the chance at a return to cleanse conditions, or do I go right back into the conflict and get my hits in while the resistance up.?

For Shadowstep (skill), you use it because you need to and typically because you need to cleanse. Removing that need by adding Resistance trivializes the cleanse. I mean I’m already Resisting the conditions, why do I have to cleanse them?

An evade frame to the return does not do that it becomes I need to cleanse I need to return.

The evade frame on the return will aslo not do anything about those confusion stacks on you when you do that return.

Not if you have Resistance up. What evade does is, it adds skill to Shadowstep. I need to cleanse so I need to evade the next attack or AoE I need to Shadowstep. Then you Shadow Return if that was not enough and maybe timing another attack for on evade proc.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Everything from HoT except power reaper is an abomination, daredevil included.

I hate the fact that you’re making a statement that I have nothing to say but to agree.

Are you really so callous as to think you should inherently disagree with everything I say because we disagree on other subjects?

Obviously I made that post because I don’t think that I should be inherently in disagreement with you on everything. Yet, here we are, in a disagreement again.

DeceiverX.8361:

Everything from HoT except power reaper is an abomination, daredevil included.

I hate the fact that you’re making a statement that I have nothing to say but to agree.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

One way to fix Shadowstep, make it an actual port again instead of a travel skill.

That’s really not the problem. It should be that if the skill confirms a walk-able path to the target that it should teleport to the target area 100% of a time. The fact that it rechecks the path after the skill confirmation is the one that causes the problem.

Another issue is that it seems the walk-able path has a maximum distance, probably 1200 (unless specified). If you’re trying to teleport to a target 900 distance away, but due to a gap between you and your target, to get to that target in melee range the you would have to walk around about 1500 distance, then the Shadowstep will simply port forward and fail.

One thing I have with it is it procs anything like test of faith, or wards causing the knock down.

That’s why my suggestion for it to have an evade frame.

Would the evade frame stop warding effects?

It will work no different than dodging. If dodge cannot enter/exit a ward, Shadowstep shouldn’t either, otherwise that’s just too strong.

As it stands right now Dodges can’t whether or exit, they knock you down Shadowsteps can exit them but you still get knocked down since it is a traveling ability.

I’m personally fine with that. I don’t want to invalidate the design of the ward by giving Thief an escape. In as much as I’d like to have that, I don’t believe that would be healthy for the Thief and would typically end up balancing the skills with shadowstep with a nasty nerf.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

One way to fix Shadowstep, make it an actual port again instead of a travel skill.

That’s really not the problem. It should be that if the skill confirms a walk-able path to the target that it should teleport to the target area 100% of a time. The fact that it rechecks the path after the skill confirmation is the one that causes the problem.

Another issue is that it seems the walk-able path has a maximum distance, probably 1200 (unless specified). If you’re trying to teleport to a target 900 distance away, but due to a gap between you and your target, to get to that target in melee range the you would have to walk around about 1500 distance, then the Shadowstep will simply port forward and fail.

One thing I have with it is it procs anything like test of faith, or wards causing the knock down.

That’s why my suggestion for it to have an evade frame.

Would the evade frame stop warding effects?

It will work no different than dodging. If dodge cannot enter/exit a ward, Shadowstep shouldn’t either, otherwise that’s just too strong.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

One way to fix Shadowstep, make it an actual port again instead of a travel skill.

That’s really not the problem. It should be that if the skill confirms a walk-able path to the target that it should teleport to the target area 100% of a time. The fact that it rechecks the path after the skill confirmation is the one that causes the problem.

Another issue is that it seems the walk-able path has a maximum distance, probably 1200 (unless specified). If you’re trying to teleport to a target 900 distance away, but due to a gap between you and your target, to get to that target in melee range the you would have to walk around about 1500 distance, then the Shadowstep will simply port forward and fail.

One thing I have with it is it procs anything like test of faith, or wards causing the knock down.

That’s why my suggestion for it to have an evade frame.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

One way to fix Shadowstep, make it an actual port again instead of a travel skill.

That’s really not the problem. It should be that if the skill confirms a walk-able path to the target that it should teleport to the target area 100% of a time. The fact that it rechecks the path after the skill confirmation is the one that causes the problem.

Another issue is that it seems the walk-able path has a maximum distance, probably 1200 (unless specified). If you’re trying to teleport to a target 900 distance away, but due to a gap between you and your target, to get to that target in melee range the you would have to walk around about 1500 distance, then the Shadowstep will simply port forward and fail.

Sorry baba- didn’t mean to hijack your thread. Let’s get back to the topic before it get derailed.

Adding evade frame to Shadowstep will solve a lot of these issues. Shadow Refuge should be the skill that grants Resistance plus Stability.

Stealth Gyro is an abomination, a very stupid idea. It should only detect stealth but not apply stealth. Should be renamed and redesigned as Anti-stealth Gyro.

I forgot one last thing: Shadow Form

babazhook.6805:

>>>If the ranger open up at 750 or less, it would take Bounders 3 dodges to get out of range because it can only cover 300 per dodge, thus to cover a 900 distance is to dodge 3 times. Compared to Dash, it only takes 2 dodges to cover the 900 range, meaning the 3rd endurance bar can be used to re-engage. Even if you factor swiftness, Dash is still more endurance efficient.

I will disagree with your conclusions and suffice it to say your style of combat is not mine. You might find UC more efficient when soloing. I do not and spend almost all my time in wvw more often than not soloing.

To your example above. If a ranger at 700 range the last thing I am doing is using dashes or bounding to get away from him. The further away I get the harder his AA hits. I am going to engage him directly using that stealth to close . That tsealth will avoid any knockback and get me close enough to use a bounding dodger to land on him.

I am now on him with at least a dodge , able to use my weapon while you are some 1200 units away facing the long range shot and trying to figure out how to get back to him. By the time you use your dash to reclose he has his RF coming back off cooldown.

Yeah, we’re different in play style alright. I get out of range then go in stealth so that when I go in stealth, RF cannot follow me while in stealth.

Making statements like “no one should ever use bound unless in a group” is simply you stating an opinion as to what works best for your style of play. You apparently play much more defensively. It is not an absolute as I prefer dodger when Solo and do very well with it.

My opinion is within the context of this topic. I will never suggest a more risky and aggressive play to someone who don’t even know how to solo take a camp. Bound is a no-no in that context, unless they are with a group.

I need not compare results with you when making this conclusion. Given I have played both for months on end in a multiple of builds , I can compare to myself which is as it should be. So let us agree to disagree on the matter.

My only disagreement is not about your play style (I do take a more aggressive approach myself), rather on what’s being suggested in the context of the topic. Often times, what works for you doesn’t necessarily works for others, so a more defensive/sage approach is better and it’s up to the player if they want to take it up a notch. Then they can come back here and make another topic on how to take it to the next level.

Right now, we have Po at level zero. Sure it would be fun seeing his tenders smashed and his butt burns, but let’s first see if they can handle a level zero first.

Worshipping Grenth is not always about killing, but also that Grenth should preserve the Thief and not bring them death. Thief can also pray to Dwayna to keep them from death, but Dwayna’s blessing is somewhat unnatural where when someone’s time to die, she keeps them alive or resurrect them. This is why Dwayna and Grenth are polar opposite in this issue.

The major difference is, those who worship Grenth stares at death in the face, while those who worship Dwayna are afraid of death. So worshipping Grenth takes away the fear, thus the Thief is more effective in doing their job.

Lyssa is the patron god of deception, thus in order for the Thief to use Shadow Arts, she is worshipped.

I rather have Mug causes knockdown.

Jortakk.6792:

This might be a silly question, but why didn’t they just put a 1 s ICD on Rending Shade rather than mess with the fluidity of the thieves’ kit?

They’re planning to remove Revealed, that’s why. At least, that’s how it looks to me.

Straegen.2938:

Pulmonary Impact benefits D/P also, so what’s your point?

PW triggers Pulmonary Impact as well Head Shot. Landing the first part of PW often triggers it which in turn lands a hard hit regardless of a full channel. Backstab does not typically fire Pulmonary Impact making it less useful on D/P than S/P by a mile.

Your likelihood to interrupt anyone with a .75s casting time is way less than the likelihood of Head Shot to interrupt with no casting time. Your statement is based on wishful thinking and is far from reality — just as your claim that IS sets up PW.

PW doesn’t need a full channel to deliver a sizable burst. As noted Pulmonary Impact often triggers from PW. In addition the character is in full evade which often triggers a minor heal or two.

I’m sorry but I call BS on this.

First you assume that your target is stunned, thus how the heck are you gonna trigger the “on evade” if no one’s attacking you?

Second, two hits from the sword attack IS NOT a sizeable burst. Yes you only get 2 hits before your target dodged away.

Third, Pulmonary Impact has a low to no chance of proc’ing against a target that is immobilized. If the target breaks immob, they will definitely dodge/evade your stun. You can’t interrupt stun break either since those are instant cast.

PW has a big problem in terms of cost and the channel duration.

You keep saying this despite the fact that it is cheaper than Backstab in most instances. It also hits harder particularly with Pulmonary Impact. It doesn’t need the full channel to clock harder than Backstab and it is far more likely to fully trigger Sigils. It also cleaves rather than being a single target skill.

Before the Backstab ICD nerf, this argument made more sense but Backstab just got a lot more difficult to land.

I don’t really get how players are having a hard time landing a Backstab. Must be a L2P thing.

Otherwise the only really use of PW is against an immovable object like siege engines and gates.

Again we can agree to disagree. Although it is fantastic against guards which is the point of this thread.

I rather use Vault than use PW.

Straegen.2938:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I rather have 3s ICD that only affect stealth attacks instead of 4s Revealed that imprisons the whole trait line and one of the Thief’s main defensive mechanic. Why would anyone favor Revealed is beyond me.

The 1s ICD was a fairly stong nerf to Backstab. It would be reasonable if the thief could still use their AA while stealthed but missing in stealth now often wastes a lot of init for little to no damage.

Going from 3s to 4s on Reveal while a nerf is a marginal adjustment for any decent player. That said I am not proposing they make this change. What would be better is to simply roll back the ICD or at least cut it in half.

Don’t you see the irony in your post? While you oppose the 1s ICD, you favor a 3s-4s ICD — yes, folks, great news, Revealed is stealth attack ICD with a fancy name.

Straegen.2938:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

This is not true. The immob from IS only lasts 1s. The casting time for PW is .75s, the Stun lasts .5s, and the transition from the Pistol attack to the Sword attack is .25 -.5s. This means that your immob only guarantees the stun, but not the sword attack hits. The only real CC that’s keeping your target for the sword attack is the stun not the immob. If they dodge the immob, then they are out of range for your PW, so the claim that your target will either get immob or stunned doesn’t make sense.

PW isn’t a root skill until after the stun. All I need is to get and stay close which is the point of IS. Stay out of their crap until I can teleport (Steal, Shadow Step, IS), hit them with PW and if anything goes wrong IR. Without IS/IR S/P is often left sitting in a very poor place when it misses.

However you want to spin it, you’re still facing the fact that Pistol Whip has a .75s casting time, a .25-.5s transition delay between the two actions from pistol to sword, and ~1.25s of sword attack (rooting), which negates any perceived benefit that IS provide.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

There’s no doubt that S/P hits hard, that is if you can keep your target from moving and using IS is not as effective nor reliable as you might think.

We have thousands of hours and kills on this weapon set. I dare say my guild mate is probably the closest thing to an expert on the build as you will find. It is very reliable with only one real weakness.

Doubtful. The facts are proving your statement false.

Because IS->PW is not reliable. On paper, your target will receive massive damage, but in reality, you only get a stun and a couple of sword hits before they move or dodge away. Since PW roots you, the big chunk of your damage is negated.

Pulmonary Impact allows PW to do significant damage without having to fully channel. A full channel is just a bonus. Besides if it does half of the hits, that is about as strong as a Backstab and PW isn’t positional nor has an ICD.

Pulmonary Impact benefits D/P also, so what’s your point?

Contrary to your position, the full channel is what makes PW great. The problem is, it cannot deal 100% of its damage to the target.

If the D/P specs SA, the 9 init cost is also a heal + 2 init refund after 4s of stealth. So in this case, BP->HS is much cheaper.

Now we are going down a rabbit hole. Trading off DA for SA, loses Mug (a solid hitter/healer), Panic Strike (very powerful with PW), Exposed Weakness and Executioner. You could drop Trickery but ouch does that drop the DPS as well.

Whoever said that DA is being traded off? And whoever said that Trick is being dropped? What was said is that, the cost of BP->HS is much cheaper when spec’d for SA.

You’re the only one going into a rabbit hole down a slippery slope. DA/SA/Trick is still a strong build. Trick and DD are interchangeable, no reason to have both. SA and Acro are interchangeable, no reason to have both either. DA and CS are interchangeable, having both presents a high risk — sacrificing a defensive line for more damage.

If you’re implying a D/P uses DA/Trick/DD build, then that’s maybe just you. I will never build my D/P that way.

I am in no way saying S/P is better than D/P but what I am saying is that for clearing a camp it is vastly superior. For killing players, it is better than Staff. Finally that IS/IR is not wasted on S/P and is actually cornerstone to making it run well.

PW has a big problem in terms of cost and the channel duration. PW entire animation should finish within the 1s time frame. Either reducing the number of swings to 3 and still deal the same overall damage or reduce the casting time and remove the delay between pistol and sword attack to fit into the 1s time frame. Having the whole animation lasts approx. 2s is not acceptable. Unless PW can chase a moving target just like Relentless Assault, that duration is way too long. Otherwise the only really use of PW is against an immovable object like siege engines and gates.

EDIT: typos

Straegen.2938:

IMO I would rather have a 4s Reveal than a 1s ICD.

I rather have 3s ICD that only affect stealth attacks instead of 4s Revealed that imprisons the whole trait line and one of the Thief’s main defensive mechanic. Why would anyone favor Revealed is beyond me.

Straegen.2938:

The Immobilize on IS sets up PW. Without it a target typically dodges the PW. With it a target might dodge the Immob or the Stun but probably not both. The key to making PW work is the constant Immob and Stun spam.

This is not true. The immob from IS only lasts 1s. The casting time for PW is .75s, the Stun lasts .5s, and the transition from the Pistol attack to the Sword attack is .25 -.5s. This means that your immob only guarantees the stun, but not the sword attack hits. The only real CC that’s keeping your target for the sword attack is the stun not the immob. If they dodge the immob, then they are out of range for your PW, so the claim that your target will either get immob or stunned doesn’t make sense.

8 init is cheap compared to D/P Backstab setup and PW hits harder. Besides that is for a followup or gap closing hit. IS/IR on S/P is a great utility. We have run the set nightly for over a year now and it is one of the strongest thief builds we have run.

There’s no doubt that S/P hits hard, that is if you can keep your target from moving and using IS is not as effective nor reliable as you might think.

As noted, Stealth is not “necessary” for a tactical advantage. The thief in combat mobility in our experience is far more lethal. Taking stealth (a generally heavy mechanic) over mobility/damage is no longer necessary. For good players, thief stealth to prime attacks is a handicap IMO.

For good players, stealth is not just for setting up attacks, it’s for tactical advantage. You don’t always have to follow stealth with a stealth attack. You can use it tactically to gain a positional advantage.

I don’t understand why you accept the D/P Backstab cost but think the IS/PW is expensive. 8 init to close and deliver one of the hardest hitting attacks in the game is pretty cheap. Even better it comes with a safety valve if things don’t line up.

Because IS→PW is not reliable. On paper, your target will receive massive damage, but in reality, you only get a stun and a couple of sword hits before they move or dodge away. Since PW roots you, the big chunk of your damage is negated.

If the D/P specs SA, the 9 init cost is also a heal + 2 init refund after 4s of stealth. So in this case, BP→HS is much cheaper.

babazhook.6805:

You overstate the case significantly with dash versus dodge as far as distance moved is concerned.

Bounding dodger moves you 300 units through that evade. Dash moves you 450 unites through the duration of that evade. that is only extra 150 units meaning that in our scenario of being under RF if a ranger opened up at 900+ and I Dodged away with bounding and you with dash, I would take no more damage than you. It also means that if that ranger opens up at 750 units or less you still be in range using dash as would a person using bounding.

That extra 150 units in game terms, swiftness up and running will be covered in aroind 1/2 second.

If the ranger open up at 750 or less, it would take Bounders 3 dodges to get out of range because it can only cover 300 per dodge, thus to cover a 900 distance is to dodge 3 times. Compared to Dash, it only takes 2 dodges to cover the 900 range, meaning the 3rd endurance bar can be used to re-engage. Even if you factor swiftness, Dash is still more endurance efficient.

In essence if we leave aside the immob breaks and swiftness given I am speaking about a build that already has those things what you have with UC is that extra 1/2 second when you dodge added to 10 percent damage mitigation for conditions and direct for 4 seconds.

Yes, it’s a perfect trait for Thief. It has a lot of things that the Thief needs in one beautiful package.

What bounding dodger has is 10 percent more damage for 4 seconds, a blast finisher and AOE direct damage that can hit and hit hard. If as example we move towards that same ranger to attack and use a a dodge to close the gap to miss his knockback, you will arrive a fraction of a second earlier, i will arrive doing thousands in damage when I land.

Gievn that with that same ranger I can blast the water field I steal from him for a fat heal , something your dash can not do , I am going bounding dodger in such circumstances.

I’m not denying everything that Bound can do since I also said that it’s a better pick when in a group. You can surely risk it with Bound, I used to do that, but in terms of resource efficiency, Dash is way better since it can disengage and re-engage while preserving the Thief, thanks to the 10% damage reduction against both direct damage and condition damage.

Dealing thousands of damage with Bound to a Ranger means that either the Ranger is naked or simply standing there, or both. I’ve played every profession and fighting naked or simply standing there is not part of playing a Ranger. If you dodge my RF, I already know if you have Bound or Dash and I can respond appropriately. S/D also gives Ranger a lot of evades, 3 skills in that set has evade, so I really doubt the Ranger will just take thousands of damage.

To the issue of stealth through a rapid fire . I find it works very well as the Ranger loses target lock. If you are just evading and he still sees you his next attack can hit right away . In stealth you can other move away or towards him and those extra seconds in stealth are you not being hit.

You don’t really have extra “seconds”, more like 1/2 a second. The RF channel is 2.5s long. The channel will follow you for that duration and the Ranger can track you while you’re in stealth. Target only drops after the channel, which means you only have .5s to move freely in stealth.

Now all of my builds used to use UC. I initially found Bounding misses to much. I have since come around to its potential. That said I alwso use UC in other builds. It a great trait but is hardly the one people should always select.

I agree and I never implied that Dash is the one “people should always select” rather what I said was Bound is a no-no unless you’re in a group. I’m looking at which trait has a better benefit and is more efficient. IMO, Bound should grant 15% damage boost, same with Lotus, 15% damage boost, just to be on par with Dash’s efficiency.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Straegen.2938:

I sometimes wonder if we all play the same game. No build bursts down a Chrono Condi Shatter build that is played by a decent player. It simply cannot be done in a 1v1 setting. Mine is running with over 3300 armor. A jacked up thief with a crit on a Backstab is going to clock for maybe 5k with sigils. Funny enough landing that just got a LOT harder.

What a thief typically sees fighting one: Block, Block, Block, Evade, Evade, Evade, Invuln, Invuln, Invuln, Stealth, Rift return, start all over again.

Not to jack the thief thread but How does your mes have 3300? I’ve come across one that was tanky af and couldn’t figure out how.

Here’s one way: 3300

Looks like I need to shine up my condi thief/daredevil then. High tough but lower HP. My thief can utilize stealth with mass condi application.

3k+ armor is rampant thus I’ve abandoned power builds and favored condition/hybrid builds. It’s also a very effective anti-Mesmer because as power, you have a better luck winning the lottery than actually hitting a Mesmer and when you do, your damage is reduced to wet noodles.

Revealed is nothing but shackles that hinders the evolution of the Thief profession. They can figure out what happens to other professions but Thief seriously doesn’t need this self-inflicted nerf. Thief is heavily burdened by this lazy feature compared to other professions thus it needs to be abolished. Otherwise, there will be no meaningful progress for the Thief profession.

They can avoid this issue by creating Elite specs like DD, but they have to face the fact that Thief is a specialist in Shadow Arts…how can you be a “specialist” if you’re purposely revealing yourself…it makes zero sense.

This Dynamic Skills look too similar to Revenant’s.

They should just abolish Revealed since that’s the only way to justify the ICD on stealth attacks. They added Revealed to prevent a chained backstabs, well with ICD, you can’t do that anymore, so no reason to keep Revealed. This way Thieves can use stealth as a form of effective and reliable defense mechanic as it was first intended.

Straegen.2938:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

IS/IR is very costly for a marginal damage and really only useful when used in S/D because the immob can benefit both CnD and FS/LS. You also lose cleanse with IR if you use any other skill after IS — it would be nice if it functions like FS/LS. But, yes, I agree that BP in S/P don’t really see much play for me either.

You aren’t using IS/IR properly if being used for direct damage. IS is used to position for a second or third PW, the thief then has 15s to pop IR. That is a teleport to a target with Immobilize and a return 15s later with condi removal for a total of 5 init. Only 3 if the player doesn’t return.

IS→PW combo costs 8init(9 in PvP), 10init (11 in PvP) when IR is used…that’s expensive. I’m simply stating the benefit-to-cost ratio. Even though IS→FS/LS is more expensive, the benefit is way better because not only it steals boon, it can also deal a massive unblockable damage.

Besides, you don’t need IS to prep PW because PW already has it’s own CC and PW will not benefit from immob because PW has a .75s casting time and another .5s of delay from pistol animation going to the sword attacks animation. So by the time you stast swinging your sword for multiple hits, your target can dodge out of it.

Stealth is absolutely not necessary on a thief. I believe it is heavy compared to using pure mobility these days. D/P uses 9 init for a few seconds of stealth. Add on SA and a thief handcuffs themselves to a sub-par damage line. Once a player frees themselves from the stealth shackles several new variations of builds open up. Players with good situational awareness particularly excel.

Our crew stopped using stealth about a year ago and instead focused on builds that hit harder with higher mobility. We are far more dangerous running without stealth and every bit as slippery.

I said, it is necessary to gain tactical advantages. I never said it’s necessary for every build.

D/P spends 9 init because it has no choice, that’s the cost of BS in that set. BS costs 6 init in D/D set. There’s no other way around it unless you want to burn your cooldowns for stealth.

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Straegen.2938:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Yeah, leaping with Bounding gives S/P stealth, however Bounding is a no-no unless you’re in a group.

I find this to be more or less true.

Stealth handicaps several thief builds including S/P. Black Powder is good for stomps, can make camp caps painless and is solid around other thieves but mostly it sits unused in combat on my builds. It is far better to become proficient on IS and IR coupled with defensive skills like Bandits and Shadow Step.

Mastering D/P tends to handicap players shifting to other weapons due to the reliance on stealth. Stealth isn’t necessary and in some cases sub-optimal.

Stealth is necessary at gaining tactical advantage regardless of build. However, to trade Dash to Bound just to gain stealth is never a good idea unless running with a group or zerg. Besides, S/P is a very expensive set costing 6 init + 50 endurance just to Bound on BP. That’s 50 endurace that could have been used to trigger “on evade” abilities.

IS/IR is very costly for a marginal damage and really only useful when used in S/D because the immob can benefit both CnD and FS/LS. You also lose cleanse with IR if you use any other skill after IS — it would be nice if it functions like FS/LS. But, yes, I agree that BP in S/P don’t really see much play for me either.

Disagree entirely on dash versus bound. Firstly I have 100 percent uptime swiftness and multiple immob breaks in the build. I also have multiple ways to clear chill and cripple. Dash does nothing more for the build in this regard. I do not need all those immob breaks. it overkill.

Bound on the other hand can get me 6k AOE damage with ease and is a blast finisher for using water firelds I steal off rangers ethereal fields and the like.

Well yes, in certain builds Dash may be overkill. However, the beauty of Dash is that it opens up an option to add more overall damage at the same time a very good engage/disengage ability. Dash has the farthest travel distance compared to other dodge augmentations (i.e. Bound) — it’s not just about the anti-immob.

To Bound to stealth I am not sure where you get the idea this does not proc an evade. Of course it does. When flipping a camp more often than not a ranger shows. The first thing a ranger does is used Rapid Fire. Your HS to stealth with Black powder is not an evade. It will not clear the vuln stacks or avoid the channel of the RF. Bound to stealth will do both. Further to that if the camp still has guards I am all but assured an evade and all of its procs due to their own attacks launched as I evade.

I think you misread my post about this. I never posted anything to that notion that it does not proc evade, in fact, I said that opposite. What I said was, I could’ve used the 50 endurance to proc an evade instead of using it to go in stealth.

I mean come on, who tries to go in stealth while being channeled with Rapid Fire? Rapid Fire has a channel time of 2.5s while Bound only have .75s of evade frame…meaning, you’re still getting hit by Rapid Fire even in stealth. Dash is actually the best counter to Rapid Fire because not only you evade the arrows, you can also get out of range while proc’ing on-evade effect.

You can then re-engage in stealth while out of range. HS to BP + Steal (no Mug) can set you up for a BS from 1500 range.

I am now stealthed and can decide to enage the ranger or move in another direction entirely.

Not really. BP has a casting time of .5s and Bound has .75s of evade, meaning you’re eating 1.75s of Rapid Fire even in stealth. Because of this, the Ranger can see where you at and besides, what exactly does S/P do from stealth? Daze? Blind? The damage from Tactical Strike is pathetic. You can surely use Pistol Whip but that’s an expensive way of doing it and stealth is unnecessary.

The Vuln the ranger applied is cleared and a good part of the RF avoided. I am ahead of the guy who stealthed via Powder and HS in all aspects but endurance, but avoiding atttacks and proccing on evade traits is what endurance is for..

I disagree. As I mentioned above, you’re eating 1.75s out of 2.5s of channeled RF even in stealth. Escapist Absolution will only remove 3 out of 10 stacks of vulnerability due to its ICD. If you delay the removal of the stacks so you can remove more than 3 stacks, the damage is already done because each consecutive arrows will benefit from the current stack of Vulnerability. If you remove it too early, you’re going to eat 8 out of 10 arrows from RF.

The only practical way to avoid further damage and stacks of Vulnerability is to evade the first volley, thus removing/preventing the stacks of Vulnerability, then get out of range to prevent damage and further stacks. Dash can grant you that kind of protection that Bound cannot.

Jana.6831:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jana.6831:

~snip~and in that case the question should’ve been “I want the best build for capping a defended camp”.~snip~

Step: Buy an Arrow Cart schematics

You know the rest.

Good luck with that, especially since you have 25 supps max if solo capping.

Regardless, it’s the best build.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Straegen.2938:

I sometimes wonder if we all play the same game. No build bursts down a Chrono Condi Shatter build that is played by a decent player. It simply cannot be done in a 1v1 setting. Mine is running with over 3300 armor. A jacked up thief with a crit on a Backstab is going to clock for maybe 5k with sigils. Funny enough landing that just got a LOT harder.

What a thief typically sees fighting one: Block, Block, Block, Evade, Evade, Evade, Invuln, Invuln, Invuln, Stealth, Rift return, start all over again.

Not to jack the thief thread but How does your mes have 3300? I’ve come across one that was tanky af and couldn’t figure out how.

Here’s one way: 3300