The maximum number of times a Thief can use DB and Vault is 3 times in a row. After that, the Thief has to wait at leat 5sec before he can use the same skill again. From this point on, the Thief can use only use the same skill once every 5sec. Unless the Thief waits for full init bar, which is a 12sec CD for DB and 15sec CD for Vault, you won’t see the same skill used in a row anymore.
In other words, this notion of “Thief spam” is utter nonsense and it’s the source of what the misinformed Devs believes thus they keep on nerfing the Thief’s initiative gains and refuses to lower down the cost of each skill — on top of nerfing the Thief’s overall damage relative to the current meta. For once, they should stop looking at the numbers and actually play a Thief and balance the profession based on their first hand experience.
You do realize natural initiative regeneration occurs while casting skills, right? Plus You have a lot of people playing Acro on D/D getting an initiative on each dodge, plus initiative on steal. DB only costs four initiative, so on natural regen alone you’re looking at 3 and then almost immediately after a fourth.
All said and done, if you’re not fighting a static target, you’re probably able to get around six or so consecutive DB casts in a row without considering other potential utilities like RFI or IS passive. If you play correctly, you should be able to approach 100% evasion uptime between mixed dodges and DB casts unless you walk into CC.
My point is, the “spammability” of said skill goes into a cooldown after the initial sequential use. I simply kept it simple in my post.
So let’s take your point into account. Ok, you used DB 4x in a row, then what, you go into a cooldown of at least 4sec before you can use DeeBee again — or 12-15sec cooldown before you can use DB 3x – 4x in a row.
- Steal only grants 2 initiatives which is barely enough to reliably “spam” DB.
- RFI has 48sec – 60sec CD, depending on your trait allocations, which rolls you out of range for another DB, effectively interrupting the said “spam”.
- Upper Hand is 1 initiative per evade, not dodge, with 2s cooldown — which diminishes its usefulness if you choose to spam DB. You would only net about 1-2 initiatives before your initiative pool is empty — assuming that you’re evading attacks while using DB, which is very unlikely. The common reaction against DB is dodging. No enemy will stay there trying to attack you while using DB, instead they will create a gap by dodging/moving away from you.
That’s my whole point. This notion of spammable skill is nonsense same goes with the “100% evade uptime”. They are simply not based on reality.
The maximum number of times a Thief can use DB and Vault is 3 times in a row. After that, the Thief has to wait at leat 5sec before he can use the same skill again. From this point on, the Thief can use only use the same skill once every 5sec. Unless the Thief waits for full init bar, which is a 12sec CD for DB and 15sec CD for Vault, you won’t see the same skill used in a row anymore.
In other words, this notion of “Thief spam” is utter nonsense and it’s the source of what the misinformed Devs believes thus they keep on nerfing the Thief’s initiative gains and refuses to lower down the cost of each skill — on top of nerfing the Thief’s overall damage relative to the current meta. For once, they should stop looking at the numbers and actually play a Thief and balance the profession based on their first hand experience.
By pressing CTRL+T locks and pings your target. You can then press TAB to switch to other targets, then you can simply press T to switch back to the locked target.
This doesn’t work for you?
He’s saying that when there is AI in front of your target, the AI blocks the way to the target and you port to the AI instead. Basically body tanking for them.
Then I don’t think that will change anytime soon since that combat mechanic is there by design. This is also the reason why positioning is very important. Having to ignore the minions as part of the collision detection diminishes the purpose of having minions in the first place.
I think the better solution is to make them less tanky so there’s an actual risk in having those AI minions around. (Note: I’m talking about minions and not pets, since the Ranger pet is part of the profession and should remain tanky)
By pressing CTRL+T locks and pings your target. You can then press TAB to switch to other targets, then you can simply press T to switch back to the locked target.
This doesn’t work for you?
I have several questions about what a Thief should do and when as well as what it requires the rest of its team to do in order to be successful.
First, does a Thief need its 4 other players to be able to hold their own in a 4v4 or 3v3 without assistance? Not necessarily win the fights, but last long enough to allow the Thief to do what it needs to do before it gets there to +1.
Yes. There should be at least 3 members who can hold their own even in 5v3 fights. I’ve seen this many times, thus it can be done. If your team can handle the pressure, there’s really no need for the Thief to +1 that fight. Unless your team owns all the node and there’s nothing for you to do, the Thief should be capping/decapping.
However, this scenario differs from my own perception of what strategy should and could work.
IMO, let another profession handle the capping and have the Thief be one of the 3 members that can hold their own. Most of the time when we watch a match, a 3v3 or a 4v4 is mostly a stalemate only because everyone is building bunkers. The Thief has a lot of ways that can deal with bunkers, yet they are out there node-hopping when they should be part of the fight instead. If the meta’s mentality shifts and start to recognize what the Thief can really do in a team fight, they would be reluctant in sending them off to cap a node…and when this happens, there will be no more stalemates in a 3v3 or 4v4, one of them will go down and decide the fight sooner than later and make for a really enjoyable match. What the Devs are doing in their patches is to artificially make the game last longer by making the professions more tanky, but it seems that they are slowly realizing that the game might have last longer, but sure as hell it’s boring to watch. A Thief with a high potential of tipping a balance is out there node-hopping is not fun to do nor is fun to watch.
Secondly, which is more important? If the far point is completely open, but there is a 4v4 going on at mid, which should a Thief prioritize? Decapping far or +1ing the mid fight? What if it is a 3v3? Or what if there are heavy bunkers on mid that will take a while to down?
You have to communicate at this point. If your team needs you, then go +1, if not, go cap. Your effectiveness in dealing with bunkers depends on your build and your team’s build. It’s not hard to bring down a bunker as long as you coordinate your attacks and focus on one target. If you’re in solo-queue, forget everything I’ve said because you will need luck instead. The key here is communication, which is absent in solo. If you base your decision on assumptions, more often than not, it will backfire and bite you in the…you get the idea.
If a 4v4 is happening at mid, and the other team has a Thief, and both home and far are open (you control home, and your opponent controls far), where should you go?
Same answer from the previous question; communication. Even if you’re a seasoned veteran, if you failed in communicating, it is more than likely that your team will lose. You can get lucky in your assumptions but that will only take you so far.
If you are decapping far, but your team is losing players in a 4v4 at mid, what should you do? Stay and cap far completely? Head to mid to try and even the numbers? Or attempt to complete a map objective (creature on forest) while you wait for your team to regroup?
If your team own mid, then only cap until neutralized, then help mid. If not, completely cap it. If your opponent owns mid, more than likely they will push home if they win that team fight, so might as well completely cap far to have them pause and decide which node to cap next…this is assuming of course that one of their members is not already capping home during the team fight or they don’t already own home, otherwise they’ll push far and smash you. At this point, try to regroup with your team when they respawn.
If you are +1ing a 3v3 or 4v4 against bunkers, what is the best strategy? And how can a Thief effectively +1 in a 3v3 or 4v4 without getting caught in all the AoE? I’m a power-crit Thief, but my Shortbow seems to be very ineffective… especially against bunkers.
The best strategy is communication. Without it, you’ll be missing a lot of opportunities because your team member has information that may not be available to you. For instance, your team might have witnessed that one of your opponents have used their stun break, but that is something you didn’t witness yourself. You could have burst that person down, but lacking communication screwed you over.
You could also be missing a lot of vital information, for instance, a Thief pop-out behind you and your team mate can see the Thief, since your team has no way to tell you, you got backstabbed and was downed in a split-second. Or let’s assume that you’re trying to +1 a fight and your team has witnessed a DH or Ranger have dropped multiple traps in an area, you could end up triggering all the trap and get toast as soon as you arrived.
As I’ve mentioned above, it’s not hard to down a bunker as long as you can coordinate your attacks and focus on one target. With your build, you are more than likely to be auto-attacking and dropping poison clouds and waiting for someone to drop to 50% and then burst them down. Also, just a tactical advice, don’t switch target when your team pings one, instead wait for an opening then switch target to burst. More than likely, if you switch target on a ping, you’re giving away your team’s target for burst. Only switch if you know fully well that you can down the target, otherwise just be patient and keep spamming the poison and steal some buffs.
This is based on my experience, feel free to disagree.
If you want to go tanky;
- You need to use Unhindered Combatant…for damage reduction and anti-CC.
- You need to use Withdraw with Vigorous Recovery.
- You need to use Guarded Initiation with Pistol/Dagger.
- You need to use Don’t Stop…for anti-CC.
- You need to use Trickster…you get more Endurance per Withdraw (VR) than per Steal using BT.
- You need to use Sleight of Hands for obvious reasons.
- You need to use Impairing Daggers instead of Infiltrator Signet
- Caltrops…omg, this doesn’t need to be said.
- You need to use Impacting Strike if you’re gonna use Krait’s Rune…look at the synergy.
The problem is not your build, rather the Marauder amulet. The old Beserker amulet gives both high damage and good health pool, but now it’s pure damage. The Marauder is what Berserker used to be but a nerfed version — they nerfed the Power and Ferocity to give the amulet more Precision — it’s a horrible stat distribution IMHO compare to the old Berserker.
Perhaps so, but I’m feeling the difference just between the last season and this one. But I’m thinking it has more to do with Shadow Arts instead of Marauder… for me, at least.
Under the current amulets, my build’s stats are the following…
Berserker
Power: 2555
Crit Chance: 52.8%
Crit Damage: 223.4%Marauder
Power: 2405
Crit Chance: 59.95%
Crit Damage: 201.8%I’m still doing pretty decent damage with Marauder while getting 48% more health.
So I think it must be the difference between Critical Strikes and the other traitlines that is the issue. While being able to last longer in a fight is a good thing, at least for the way I play, it doesn’t seem to make up for losing the ability to end a fight quickly.
As a Thief, every second the fight goes on, my chances of winning diminishes. Either the opponent will heal up, recharge powerful skills, or will be reinforced by others. Not to mention that the Thief’s defensive capabilities still aren’t great even when built for it… other than running away and hiding from everything.
The more you increase your critical damage through CS, the more significant the difference is due to the loss of power. You can go Shadow Arts with Berserker amulet but with Marauder, the loss of power and ferocity, your damage output suffers. IMHO, the best build in PvP is the one you have since last season using Berserker.
Marauder is only appealing because of the increased health, but that increase in health means nothing if you can’t end a fight. If you’re an experienced Thief, the extra health has a minimal advantage because if you can consistently apply pressure to put them on a defensive, the extra health means nothing at that point. Besides, it’s very rare that you will be left alone in a node, so the presence of a teammate can alleviate the pressure on you, which again means that the extra health means nothing at this point.
If you focus on +1 fights and let someone else take the nodes, you’ll make yourself more productive to your team because while you’re hopping around trying to cap nodes, your DPS is going to waste. I see this all the time in the tournament where Thiefs are leaving a team fight to cap a node. I really don’t get that since there are other professions in their team than can do so and are more tankier that the Thief. If the Thief focus on team fights where they can receive continuous buffs and heals, the DA/CS/T Berserker will very effective. Marauder amulet is for those who choose to hop around instead of DPSing in a teamfights, so they are more interested in extra health than extra damage.
TL;DR
- stay DA/CS/T using Berserker
- choose a wingman
- profit
Charr Robe (with tail that wraps around)
Charr Slippers
Charr Coffee cup
Charr Towel
…just need a pet Charr to get my laptop
As long as Thief;
- gets Revealed
- has low health pool
- no access to defensive buffs like Resistance, Protection, and Aegis, instead gets damage oriented buffs
…Thief should be able to do their job by dealing a lot of damage. If not one shot, at least 66% damage in one shot.
Otherwise, Thief should;
- NOT get Revealed
- have high health pool
- have access to defensive buffs
Since the latter is not the case, Thief is not a fun profession to play as. The former is to balance the high damage burst, yet that capability has been nerfed without any survival compensation.
It might not be fun getting one shotted, but it’s also not fun having wet noodles as weapons.
Just wondering, why did Anet remove the one shot thieves ones were masters of
It was the one thing that made thief really fun to play. If you messed up your combo you were dead, but if you succeded you would get a kill. Know it’s just running around playing a boring “traficgame”.
Sacrificing fun for balance.
I do understand the tacticle aspect of the current thief gameplay, but God kitten its kitten. boring. If Anet love to make sure we run alot in the game, then move waypoints in pve and let people do all there running there!
Waypoints is their way of saying, “we’re too lazy to make mounts”, I mean the frog people have mounts, even Mordreds have mounts. Heroes are too awesome for mounts so they gave us gliders instead.
It’s only supposed to cleanse 1 condition. I think you’re misunderstanding the wording of the skill. It also cleanses 1 condition on each nearby ally. It doesn’t cleanse a number of conditions on you equivalent to the number of nearby allies.
I think it would make sense, but wording doesn’t match, lets look at some skills in GW1 as examples:
“Lead the Way!”
“I Will Avenge You!”
All of the examples have the wording “for each ally”.Signet of Agility has “cure a condition FOR each nearby ally”.
If it were to mean cleanse condition on an ally, it would be written as “cure a condition ON each nearby ally” or something that properly makes it clear who is the subject of the cleansing effect like “cleanse a condition on each nearby ally”…
Using “FOR” is correct otherwise it won’t make sense because that sentence has a conjunction “and” thus “Refill endurance ON each nearby ally” is weird. Using “for you and your ally” is the best solution.
They should just rewrite it to state;
“Refill endurance and cleanse 1 condition for you and your allies.”
…sacrifice fun for balance.
I hope you will eventually see the folly in that statement.
It’s still half-empty.
The problem is not your build, rather the Marauder amulet. The old Beserker amulet gives both high damage and good health pool, but now it’s pure damage. The Marauder is what Berserker used to be but a nerfed version — they nerfed the Power and Ferocity to give the amulet more Precision — it’s a horrible stat distribution IMHO compare to the old Berserker.
Their goal is to tone down the burst builds in the meta to give your target a chance for counterplay, so if it takes you a while to down someone, then the changes to the amulet has met its goal. It’s working as intended — sacrifice fun for balance.
Give D/D and P/P their own set of 5 weapon skill so balancing each skill won’t have any direct conflict with other weapon sets. I’ve said this before and I’m saying it again.
The main glaring problem with these two sets are 1) total initiative cost and 2) survivability skills. You can’t make these adjustments without affecting other weapon sets (or vice versa, see the nerfs on HS, CnD, Bodyshot and Black Powder), thus the need for D/D and P/P to have their own set of skills.
… the skill pain inverter. It an AOE condition app of three stacks of confusion and it does not reveal. It appears to have no upper limit on targets and a decent range.
Trait BA, steal to target and use pain inverter and you have 8 instant confusion stacks.
Ohh, nice one. Too bad I have no Asura Thief :/ I should really roll one.
If a player did go P/P with a trap I would suggest BV with Krait over Trapper.
Been there, done that, it doesn’t work since the Trapper gives P/P access to stealth while Krait doesn’t. The bleed from stealth attack is way better condi application than what Krait can provide.
If they see someone using D/P, it’s an automatic waste of time and only new players will even attempt to duel a D/P. However, when they see a P/P, they automatically get overconfident and would commit faster than they would have seeing a D/P. Just my WvW experience.
If it was based on my elite skill choice – just make a suggestion on an alternative for the elite. I don’t think the venoms work on traps or caltrops since they don’t technically do any raw damage (I could be wrong?) I mostly just took dagger storm to help me out a little bit if I do get caught by a stealth trap or something like that.
The thing is, it’s not just the Elite skill. I’m simply showing a better use of Trapper where you can actually kill someone instead of just being a troll. Another thing I failed to change was that, in my P/P build, I should have used Viper/Dire instead of full Dire. Just a different approach using the same Rune and more effective than perma-stealth. Popping in and out of stealth is just as annoying.
I am confused by the P/P variant as its stealth capability is severely limited.
It’s not a variant, rather an alternative condi build using Trapper Runes. The OP emphasizes on perma-stealth yet have chosen to take Dagger Storm so I made the suggestion assuming that perma-stealth was not the main focus.
- D/P offers more stealth. Players also lose Shadow Shot which is great for staying on fleeing enemies. With D/P they do lose the AA that bleeds and the immobilize which can be powerful in this build but I think this build is meant to be high stealth.
Yeah, no argument there. Like I said, looking at the build’s Elite skill choice, I assume that perma-stealth was not the focus.
- I don’t think traps proc venoms besides that is a lot of traits and utility for one venom that applies poison which this build already applies heavily
You can’t go wrong with applying more poison since it is the highest condition damage that Thief can easily apply. The Venom is to be used in conjunction with Unload — applying poison at the same time stacking might.
- Removing Pressure Striking eliminates Torment from the build which makes condi-cleanse easier by removing another condition type. It also synergizes well with head shot.
Adding torment doesn’t make condi-cleanse easier since the build already applies bleed, poison, weakness, vuln, immob, cripple, and blind — that’s a lot of conditions to remove already. However, the choice here is between applying Torment or denying buff and the choice is clear.
EDIT: Besides, how are you going to apply Torment if the goal is to remain in stealth?
- Geomancy is a pretty powerful sigil on this build
I guess, but I rather boost all condition damage with Busting.
- Hidden Thief while not a must have is definitely a great escape mechanism and the mobility is excellent for a near perma stealth build
Yes for a perma-stealth.
- Cloaked in Shadow is a suprising effective trait on a stealth build. It allows players to more easily drop traps on top of attacking opponents. Going stealth from terrain is also surprisingly easy.
Yes, but it’s redundant since the build already has Black Powder. The only time this trait is useful is when using Steal with Hidden Thief. VA grants the build more access to conditions by lowering the CD of Venom.
- Signet of Agility can be a solid option over Caltrops. The extra dodge applies a lighter Caltrops but you pick up a condi clear and more defense. Shadow Step is what I would put here mainly for the extra condi-removal, escape and closing capability. The build already has plenty of condi applicaiton.
Caltrops is a good skill to force your target to waste dodges or teleports. You can’t get that kind of advantage using Signet of Agility. Besides, if the OP’s build is to remain in stealth, he should not have to worry about cleansing conditions — Shadow’s Embrace will take care of that.
- While the cooldown sucks, Mistfire Wolf is actually a pretty decent option for this build. The pet applies chill and burning on foes in an AoE. The pet also doesn’t proc a reveal and uses the players condi stats. If Dagger Storm hit like it used to, it would be an obvious pick but these days it just makes the thief an easy target.
Mistfire is an expensive Elite skill, expensive meaning, you need to buy it with real money if you want it and if you don’t have the upgraded version of the game.
Was your health above 75%?
For a P/P build — yes because nobody expected a P/P to go in stealth.
Yeah but the point of the build is to be in permanent stealth while just dropping conditions on people while in stealth. To never be seen, so pistol main hand is really pointless since I wouldn’t be seen out of stealth anyway.
You can achieve “to never be seen” and dropping conditions on people tossing dead cows from a trebuchet too.
That build is not even optimized.
Lower Steal CD (Sleight of Hand) is better than applying Confusion since Poison on Steal (DA: Serpent’s Touch) deals more damage thus picking Bewildering Ambush is a bad choice.
Pressure Striking is unnecessary, instead take Bountiful to deny them of any boon.
Using trapper rune makes Hidden Thief unnecessary. You’re better off using Leeching Venom and Venomous Aura and swap Tripwire with Spider Venom for more poison stacks.
Drop D/P for P/P since the stealth from D/P is not necessary when running with Trapper Rune.
Bodyshot can add another 5% Condition damage.
P/P Unload can stack might really fast that makes those Poison ticks hurt. Only use Unload to stack might — don’t spam it since it’s useless due to low Power.
Only drop the trap for stealth when necessary or to keep distance.
If you play it right, you can actually kill someone instead of just being an annoying troll.
Would the life steal causing actual damage instead of condition damage reveal you? I haven’t tried but that looks pretty solid aside from that.
No. It behave like Caltrops. scatch that. The venom only triggers on hit and you should only use it with Unload.
And are trapper runes really worth while if you’re only running 1 trap?
For a P/P build — yes because nobody expected a P/P to go in stealth.
(edited by Sir Vincent III.1286)
Look at it this way. Adding a single piece of body armor that increase the power by 45 (soldier), Lotus Strike damage increased by 17 while Backstab increased by 39.
With a full set of soldier gear, Lotus Strike increased by 163 while Backstab increased by 358.
odd, i see a lot of d/d or staff thieves in pvp
Basically – steal/mug, vault, weapon swap, cloak and dagger, backstab.
nah, d/d run condi build
^ This one is a given — but I like P/P condi build better.
That build is not even optimized.
Lower Steal CD (Sleight of Hand) is better than applying Confusion since Poison on Steal (DA: Serpent’s Touch) deals more damage thus picking Bewildering Ambush is a bad choice.
Pressure Striking is unnecessary, instead take Bountiful to deny them of any boon.
Using trapper rune makes Hidden Thief unnecessary. You’re better off using Leeching Venom and Venomous Aura and swap Tripwire with Spider Venom for more poison stacks.
Drop D/P for P/P since the stealth from D/P is not necessary when running with Trapper Rune.
Bodyshot can add another 5% Condition damage.
P/P Unload can stack might really fast that makes those Poison ticks hurt. Only use Unload to stack might — don’t spam it since it’s useless due to low Power.
Only drop the trap for stealth when necessary or to keep distance.
If you play it right, you can actually kill someone instead of just being an annoying troll.
(edited by Sir Vincent III.1286)
Does sword hit hardest? Backstab of dagger hits hard. Can you explain the rotation with s/p?
There’s no such thing as “rotation” in WvW since you’re constantly on the move. Rather it’s about using the skill you have in a given situation.
What about casting times: dagger 1 seems to have no casting time, but sword 1 has. This was the reason why I switched from sword to dagger.
There’s not a doubt that is a fact. If you want fast attacking weapon, surely Dagger is a fit for your playstyle. For those who want to learn using S/P, you can’t really make that kind of comparison since each weapon set functions very different from the other. S/P has access to 3 interrupts (1 from stealth, 1 from PW, and 1 from Headshot) while Dagger weapon set has one from D/P. With DD’s Impacting Disruption, these interrupts are sources of high damage, but you have to be a skilled S/P user to pull it off.
GW1 is not an MMO, it is more like a Diablo game than it was a WoW game and I am glad that GW2 is not a successor and ArenaNet have truly made an MMO.
I still login to GW1 just to reminisce on the variety of skills, but looking at the 8 slot skill bar makes it really hard to appreciate combat. It requires that one of my Hero is a dedicated healer because I don’t have enough skill slot to bring one. My most hated part of GW1 is that there’s no jumping, dodging, and no respect to z-axis — I can trap someone 3 story high from a basement level.
I like the direction where Mike is taking the game, focus on polish before expanding. Good luck to the OP.
S/P power is often overlooked only because Pistol Whip roots you. However if you practice with the weapon set, you’ll find that it is very rewarding. What you need to use when running S/P is DA/Trick/DD only because DA and S/P has a very nice synergy.
With S/P, you should only use PW to finish of your opponent. Infiltrator’s Strike is good enough to apply and continue the pressure on your target. Once your target drops to 50% health, that’s when you finish them off with PW because with DA, you’ll trigger Panic Strike that will root them for 2.5s — eating every hit from PW boosted by Executioner — twice.
Playing S/P depends on how well can you force your target to waste their dodges and cleanses. The weakness application from Weakening Strikes and Lotus Poison should keep your target endurance starved. I would suggest opting on CC utility skills rather than stealth just to apply a continuous pressure to your target.
I would suggest with Trickster trait Withdraw for heal/cleanse/evade and Scorp Wire for a point blank interrupt/pull/cleanse on a 16s CD. Fist Flurry/Palm Strike for a 2s Stun which is easy to pull off with Sword #2. Then Bandit’s Defense for a low CD stunbreak/block/knockdown. For the Elite Skill, I would suggest Basilisk. With your current gear, this should work out just fine.
With the utility skills I’ve suggested, you can continue to apply pressure while conserving initiatives for the final half. Don’t waste initiatives on PWs that will never fully hit. Headshot is a tempting skill to use as interrupt, but at melee range, Scorp Wire can save you 4 initiatives wit the same level of efficiency.
As for S/D, in my opinion it’s not worth it anymore. The cost of using that weaponset doens’t make any sense. It’s too costly for a mediocre reward. P/P will not work with the build I’ve suggested since you’ll need CS to make P/P work to an acceptable level. SB is still the best when it comes to cheap shadowstep.
TL;DR
Don’t spam PW.
[Acrobatics] Now acts as Daredevil traits (name fits better)
Adept
-(minor)Physical Supremacy: Same
-(MAJOR) Brawler’s Tenacity: Same
-(MAJOR) Driven Fortitude: when you evade you gain swiftness and heal yourself. Swiftness 5 seconds, heal 456^(0.1).
-(MAJOR) Weakening Strikes: Same
Acrobatic should be a defense trait line thus Physical, Brawler’s and Weakening should not be here and they should stay with DD. Although, the 3rd dodge from Physical should stay. Adding Driven to Acro would improve this trait line big time.
Master
-(minor)Feline Grace: Gain vigor when you evade. Vigor duration 5 seconds.
-(MAJOR) Endurance Thief: Same
-(MAJOR) Impacting Disruption: Add 2 second ICD.
-(MAJOR) Staff Mastery: Same
Again, same sentiment towards non-defensive traits. ID and SM should stay with DD. Bring back HtC since it is the most appropriate trait for Acro along side with Escapist Absolution.
I’m really against any trait that favors a specific weapon like Staff Mastery, so I rather see this effect as a minor Adept for DD where every weapon skill use will return endurance per initiative spent.
Grandmaster
-(minor) Endless Stamina: Vigor effects you apply are enhanced and remove 1 condition when applied. Vigor effectiveness increase 25% (75% endurance regen). Now works on BT for allies.
-(MAJOR) Bounding Dodger: lower damage of leap to ~465^(1.45)
-(MAJOR) Lotus Training: Change Lower bleeding duration to 6 seconds and torment duration to 4 seconds.
-(MAJOR) Unhindered Combatant: Change Remove swiftness, ignore incoming immobilizing effects periodically which become cripple instead. ICD 10 seconds. Cripple 3 seconds. Same condition removal and distance traveled.
BD and LT should stay with DD for the same reason as above since they are damage focused. UC should have been in Acro from the very beginning and no ICD, that’s just bad design.
Bottom line, all damage traits should stay with DD and all defense trait brought into Acro. Remove any weapon specific traits and make some traits’ effect baseline.
In GW1, staff shoots magical projectiles from the staff with auto-attacks — but that’s so 250 years ago.
A sylvari walks up to the Ancient Sapling. With hair like these, who needs trees?
The former Lead Attack only give 15% damage boost to the first initiative attack or any non-initiative attacks and this boost diminishes for the rest of the fight whenever you use initiatives.
The new Lead Attack grants up to 15% boost for 15 seconds which a lot of the Thief’s skills can benefit from. The big difference here is the 15 seconds duration.
There’s really no point at spamming attacks once you get the buff at full stack. This is how the new Lead Attack works right now — you basically lead your attacks by dumping all your initiatives so that the rest of your damage are boosted. The former Lead Attack make players hesitant to use their initiatives if they don’t want to lose their damage boost.
All Venoms – 40s to 24s
As long as Venom Aura exists, that will never happen. This is one of the major issues of Thief, there are so many pigeon holing going on that if you want to use venom effectively, for example, you are forced to take VA because of the ridiculous CD.
then why is anyone talking about alacrity?
first chart: full alacrity: no one is even close to thief (barring ele, obv)
second chart: no alacrity: no one is even close to thief (barring ele, obv)
where is the issue?
There are several really;
1) Compare to Guardian, whose DPS mainly coming from traps, Thief will lose a lot of DPS when they opt to remove break bars. That is something that the chart never acknowledge in the “reality” list.
2) When the Thief is using Staff or D/D, it obviously cannot contribute to removing break bar. Again, compare to Guardian for example, while they choose to remove the break bar, they don’t lose in DPS because…yeah traps. They can DPS and remove break bar just by dropping a trap.
3) Now compare to Condi Engi, same thing, once the conditions are set, it continues to do damage.
In a sense, the Thief is trapped in its own rotation while other professions can take advantage of the boost from Alacrity. As soon as the Thief diverts from the fixed rotation, they’ll drop in DPS quite rapidly. I don’t see any build where the Thief can DPS and contribute in removing break bars.
that’s the second chart
just look at any of the videos for confirmation
Well, that’s what we’re talking about… :/
lol wtf at people saying that alacrity puts thieves lower on the dps ranking
not sure if trolling or just didn’t read the post at allThe first chart is with 100% alacrity
Perhaps you’re looking at the wrong post because they specifically stated;
“We didnt use Alacrity in the “Realistic” tries because you cannot keep it up permanently on 10 people."
No, Vital Shot has a very standard activation time, it was the aftercast that was the serious problem. It now effectively deals about 25% more damage than it did before during any particular span of time, which means you don’t have to rely on Unload as much and can get way more mileage out of the set’s other skills when they are needed.
It’s not about the activation time, it’s about the pre-cast delay. If you look at the Ranger’s Shortbow auto attack, it doesn’t have any activation time while in all sense of wielding a bow is to aim and pull the string, yet they don’t have any activation time. Thief’s pistol, on the other hand, don’t need a string to be pulled yet it requires 1/2 to aim on top of the pre-cast delay. Wiki have a 0.82s attack speed for Vital Shot, that’s just way too long. So previously, when you add the after cast delay, Vital Shot shoots bullet roughly every second. And if they removed 0.6s from after cast, then Vital Shot shoots a bullet more than a second each before — that’s why it was crap. However, without addressing the pre-cast delay, the transition from Unload to Vital Shot results into a long delay.
It’s icing on the cake that Unload was given a utilitarian purpose that synergizes with Vital Shot rather than stealing the show from it. This change has been needing to happen since launch, and I’m elated it finally has.
When you transition from Unload to Vital shot, the 3 of 8 stacks of might will drop off already and by the time you shoot a bullet from Vital Shot, there’s only 5 stacks left. So every shot from Vital Shot a might stack is dropped. That’s how pathetic Vital Shot’s pre-cast time is. It would be better if they just remove the 1/2 activation time from Vital Shot if they really want to improve the weapon set.
Well, with Alacrity, it will also improve both Revenant and Engineer which are close 3rd and 4th, so in that sense, they will surpass the Thief and the Thief probably end up in 5th place.
I don’t follow that. They are trailing both in the unbuffed and buffed category by a margin of 4-6k. If one single boon that is able to be cycled more than quickness can not only cover that gap and but surpass it enough to say, beyond the variation, that Thief is 4th place, then Alcarity is the most broken boon in the game, even in it’s nerfed form.
With the Chrono’s build, there’s a total of 20s worth of Alacrity. All the wells will be available again by the time the Chrono finishes the first Alacrity rotation. In a sense, there will be almost 100% Alacrity uptime for the Mesmer and roughly 80% uptime for everyone else. Which means that even the Guardian can surpass the Thief seeing how the Thief’s build is simply relying on autoattacks and Fist Flurry rotation. The Guardian with Alacrity can pop more traps for a more DPS burst. The raid might even be better off if they trade the Thief for a second Mesmer to have a 100% Alacrity uptime. I’m sure that the loss of DPS from the Thief is no big deal if every other profession in the raid gets their skills 33% faster.
You and Dahkneus seem to be in disagreement and I don’t have numbers to prove either way, so I won’t argue against it and I won’t dismiss it as a valid point.
That’s not really a surprise since we tend to look at the same thing from the opposite angles. I really do wish that they went ahead and put up some number with Alacrity on. But I really think that they are overlooking the value of Alacrity just because it was nerfed.
But if it does turn out to be true, then I hope they look at finally giving a more benefit to thieves from Alacrity.
IMO, Alacrity should affect Initiative regen and only then I’ll be fully convinced and I’m positive that the Thief will even take top DPS.
Well, with Alacrity, it will also improve both Revenant and Engineer which are close 3rd and 4th, so in that sense, they will surpass the Thief and the Thief probably end up in 5th place.
I don’t follow that. They are trailing both in the unbuffed and buffed category by a margin of 4-6k. If one single boon that is able to be cycled more than quickness can not only cover that gap and but surpass it enough to say, beyond the variation, that Thief is 4th place, then Alcarity is the most broken boon in the game, even in it’s nerfed form.
With the Chrono’s build, there’s a total of 20s worth of Alacrity. All the wells will be available again by the time the Chrono finishes the first Alacrity rotation. In a sense, there will be almost 100% Alacrity uptime for the Mesmer and roughly 80% uptime for everyone else. Which means that even the Guardian can surpass the Thief seeing how the Thief’s build is simply relying on autoattacks and Fist Flurry rotation. The Guardian with Alacrity can pop more traps for a more DPS burst. The raid might even be better off if they trade the Thief for a second Mesmer to have a 100% Alacrity uptime. I’m sure that the loss of DPS from the Thief is no big deal if every other profession in the raid gets their skills 33% faster.
Have you read the disclaimer?
Ofcourse, as always with these tests there are some flaws that we couldn’t avoid while testing, for example according to this chart a Thief does the same DPS as a Dagger/Warhorn Tempest, with “realistic” buffs, which is ofcourse not true because in these tries neither of them had any Alacrity while in a raid you would have some which would benefit the Tempest much more.
Yeah, I did and that’s why I’m not claiming we are equal or better, even though we came out ahead by 2k in the realistic tests.
You also cut out that last sentence…
But we feel like these numbers are reasonably accurate and good numbers to aim for if youre trying to improve yourself.
…which is an important sentence and a sentiment I agree with.
Well, with Alacrity, it will also improve both Revenant and Engineer which are close 3rd and 4th, so in that sense, they will surpass the Thief and the Thief probably end up in 5th place.
It wasn’t my intent to nullify acro’s existence, I was just saying it’s not relevant for balance.
ArenaNet said that it is relevant for balance since they balance the game including solo contents.
“…general changes were also made that will make exploration and solo play in the map more rewarding.”
Second sentence from the recent patch note.
There, you no longer have a ground to stand on.
EDIT: Additional Reference.
GW2 AMA on reddit;
Q: are we going to see the HoT zones be a bit more solo player friendly? …don’t have much interest in taking part in multi-hour long zergs.
ArenaNet: Yes. You shouldn’t have to take part in multi-hour-long zergs. There’s a lot of content in HoT and we’re trying to make it rewarding to play in a variety of play styles.This is in reference to the changes they made involving the map events and rewards systems. This has nothing to do with changes to individual professions. It’s not even quoted from the profession section of the build notes.
It was about a question of balancing including solo contents. Are you even following the conversation?
“Reward” is not just the trash you get in your inventory. Making it “rewarding to play in a variety of play styles” means that there will be profession improvements that will allow such play style to be rewarding — which includes the development of the Acrobatic trait line.
I am going to revisit this as a main weapon. The adding of might coupled with how the new lead attacks works will boost damage by a good margin.
Unload has an activation time of 1.75s, plus the pre-cast and after cast delays, that’s roughly 2.3s. By that time, your 8 stacks of might become 5 stacks. By the time you make the first auto-attack, due to pre-cast and aftercast delay, the stack is now at 4. The second shot from Vital Shot will only benefit from 3 stacks, and so on.
The damage boost is mainly to benefit Unload and probably with Alacrity or quickness, other skills can benefit from it also.
The Vital shot delay issue is not on aftercast, it’s on the pre-cast (the aiming animation).
After using Unload, the Unload after cast delay plus the Vital Shot pre-cast delay makes the whole set very clunky to use due this extended delays. In order to make the set functions smoother is to have the pre-cast delay from Vital shot reduced instead of the after-cast. However, the transition from Vital Shot to Unload did receive some improvements albeit not enough since the transition from Unload to Vital shot also needs to be smoother.
Have you read the disclaimer?
Ofcourse, as always with these tests there are some flaws that we couldn’t avoid while testing, for example according to this chart a Thief does the same DPS as a Dagger/Warhorn Tempest, with “realistic” buffs, which is ofcourse not true because in these tries neither of them had any Alacrity while in a raid you would have some which would benefit the Tempest much more.
Yea, but before, you could use dash to move and save up your ini so that you could do something after the initial burst. If you use Inf arrow up until you engage, you may get the same +15% damage, but then you’ll be struggling to get the ini you need to head shot, shadow shot, or even blinding powder on a downed enemy afterwards.
Either way it’s a nerf.
You can definitely save 4 init for Shadow Shot and still get 15% damage boost on that hit. The thing is, it would now require the Thief to make a choice when to use their initiatives. I don’t see it as a nerf because the 15% damage boost is still there, they simply moved is away from the front.
Acro in PvE?
…yea, I’m not even going to bother replying to this, rofl.
Well, PvE is a big place with a very diverse playstyle, so yes, depending on what you’re doing in PvE, Acro is necessary.
D/P in PvP
This build heavily relies on jumping into a fight with heavy burst to +1. The longer a fight takes, the less likely you are to contribute much. The Lead Attack basically killed off 15% of the damage on your opening burst only to give it back when it doesn’t matter as much.
The main idea of +1 is the Thief is coming from one node to help out on the other node. So it is presumed that the Thief will use Inf. Arrow and HS to get from node to node, which builds up the Lead Attack buff as soon as the Thief arrives at the destination to +1 a fight. I find it unlikely that the Thief will not have any LA-buff when they arrived to +1 a fight.
Lead Attack in PvE
After running dps tests, there doesn’t seem to be any build using the Trickery line that outdpses the current meta staff build. You can get really close to the dps using DA/CS/Tr on double dagger, but your damage drops off heavily in situations where your rotation is interrupted or when you can’t attack from behind and you also lose access to Fist Flurry/Impact Strike.
My PvE build is CS/Acro/DD and to make use of Trick, Acro has to go. Although the damage has improved, I’m more susceptible to CC and I can’t mitigate the damage well due to low endurance so while I’m busy staying alive, I’m not doing DPS.
If you’re not using SA with D/P, you can take HIS and use it while in stealth to remove conditions, otherwise, you’re better off using Withdraw.
Typically, Withdraw is the best in slot for any build since you can double-dip in heal from Driven Fortitude if you also evaded an attack. And if you trait for Trickster, Withdraw receives reduced cooldown and removes a condition. Other healing skill can’t even come close to match what Withdraw has to offer.
It wasn’t my intent to nullify acro’s existence, I was just saying it’s not relevant for balance.
ArenaNet said that it is relevant for balance since they balance the game including solo contents.
“…general changes were also made that will make exploration and solo play in the map more rewarding.”
Second sentence from the recent patch note.
There, you no longer have a ground to stand on.
EDIT: Additional Reference.
GW2 AMA on reddit;
Q: are we going to see the HoT zones be a bit more solo player friendly? …don’t have much interest in taking part in multi-hour long zergs.
ArenaNet: Yes. You shouldn’t have to take part in multi-hour-long zergs. There’s a lot of content in HoT and we’re trying to make it rewarding to play in a variety of play styles.
(edited by Sir Vincent III.1286)
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