Guild Wars 2

Lettuce.2945:

But according to you, dp is easy and should be nerfed so it shouldn’t matter if you or Jana are “proficient” at it. Now see. You’re just contradicting yourself without realizing it. Are you saying you have to be good at dp for it to be strong? Hm? Think about that one for a bit. My job here is done. You’re just an idiot through and through. I won’t even acknowledge you anymore forum warrior.

That’s a blatant misconception. The purpose of the thread is when a proficient D/D user fight against a proficient D/P user, the D/P wins due to all the tools it received from past game updates compare to what D/D and other sets have lost and never compensated.

You have this delusion that is so far out on what’s being discussed here.

Improving the DPS of any profession in PvE doesn’t require any skills or trait changes. They’ve done this in GW1 where they’ve applied environmental effects to balance the skills in PvE. The effect can come from the instance effect, map wide effect, or NPC presence effect. Doing it this way will improve not only the profession but also the flavor of the environment the players are in — and the most important thing is it doesn’t affect PvP what so ever.

Guarded Initiation used to grant Resistance and the Dev, in their great wisdom, thought Thief don’t need it.

Lettuce.2945:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Lettuce.2945:

Your reading comprehension needs a lot of work. Maybe you should re read my post again. I suggest you do so.

Right. Is that the reason why you can’t answer a simple question on to what are you trying to prove?

Let’s suppose you won, then what? Did that prove anything?

That if you lost to what you counter, you’re not mechanically qualified to even speak in this forum about dp nerf. You’re so focused on dp nerf that you have no idea what it’s like at its highest level of play. It has hard counters and you have to outplay average players on certain professions. You’re just kittening kittened to even remotely suggest nerfing dp

Certainly the result of a duel will not support that since the purpose of this thread is to highlight the fact that D/P is over tuned while the rest of the weapon sets are not.

A lost of using D/D doesn’t conclude the player’s disqualification in requesting a D/P nerf, rather the opposite. The reason for the lost is a proof that D/D is in need of a buff.

A D/P lost will not make sense because it is an obvious superior weapon set, but the problem is, Jana is not a D/P user so to prove your point, you’ll have to challenge someone else who is proficient with D/P.

I am an S/D, D/D, and P/P user myself, so you can’t prove your point challenging me either because my lost will only prove that the sets I’m using sucks and need a buff — and your lost will prove that S/D needs a buff.

No result in the duel will prove your point.

There’s Assassin’s Equilibrium, but that’s not on dodge effect, but striking from stealth and that’s from Sept Feature Pack of 2014.

Staff can clear mobs faster than D/D can. That’s really the only reason you should know when choosing between the two.

Lettuce.2945:

Your reading comprehension needs a lot of work. Maybe you should re read my post again. I suggest you do so.

Right. Is that the reason why you can’t answer a simple question on to what are you trying to prove?

Let’s suppose you won, then what? Did that prove anything?

Lettuce.2945:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Lettuce.2945:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Lettuce.2945:

Jana.6831:

Lettuce.2945:

So guys. I don’t know why you’re feeding into the delusions of a below average thief aka Jana. Just end thread and move on. This guy isn’t in any position to even suggest thief changes considering his skill level.

You wish =) Btw I’m a gal as stated in the first sentence of the OP.

One question though: Why does apperantly no one get that “Jana” is a female name – it baffles me. It usually takes people on my servers ages to get that I’m a “girl”.

And this is relevant how? It doesn’t change the fact that your mechanical skills as a thief is lacking. You’re more than welcome to spar with me on my dueling server so I can show you how mechanically inferior you are. Which then in turn will demonstrate that your opinion holds no worth in class balancing.

You do realize that if you beat her using her D/D build will only solidify the fact that D/D needs buff?

And if you beat her using D/P which will also solidify the fact that D/P needs a nerf?

You cannot possibly believe that the result of dueling will favor to the point you’re trying to make. That’s just dumb.

I main s/d. Enough said. Love how no one evens mentions sd

Are you sure no one?

And even with that weapon set, even if you use P/P, the result will still not favor you.

What? You got me confused now. Do you even English? What are we even talking about now? Do you even know what you’re talking about now? I think you got lost in your own delusions just now.

I’ve personally mentioned S/D, but never stick to it because it’s off-topic.

So let’s say you beat her using your S/D, what do you think it will prove? That you’re a better player or that D/D do suck and needs a buff?

If you lose to her D/D build, then S/D sucks and need a buff.

The result will only solidify the fact that any other weapon sets other than D/P needs a buff.

If you choose to use D/P instead, and won, then it solidify the fact that D/P needs nerf.

Now, which part of that you don’t comprehend?

raven.9870:

ye i have one..i love it..white long tyrian coat t2 on boots fused gloves aviator helmet and scarf. with the haristyle that have 3 blades on it. on a tiger fur theme..not exactly stealthy since you can see it from miles but kitten that i love it

Stealth enough that it can be mistaken for other professions, or an innocent punk bystander, than a Thief. :P

Some method of stealth is hiding in plain sight.

Midi.8359:

Ehm, the thing you’re quoting never mentions Lettuce using D/P and Jana using D/D. They’d likely use the same weaponset if they were going to duel to show mechanics. Probably some duels with both on D/D, then some with both on D/P. Then some on P/P to see who’s better at pressing 3. Of course could throw in some D/P vs. D/D duels just for the heck of it.

Not that duels ever proved anything. But not that seems to be a theme of this thread anywho so I suppose a duel would be fitting.

Did you miss the word “if”? Might slow down in reading before you react.

Lettuce.2945:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Lettuce.2945:

Jana.6831:

Lettuce.2945:

So guys. I don’t know why you’re feeding into the delusions of a below average thief aka Jana. Just end thread and move on. This guy isn’t in any position to even suggest thief changes considering his skill level.

You wish =) Btw I’m a gal as stated in the first sentence of the OP.

One question though: Why does apperantly no one get that “Jana” is a female name – it baffles me. It usually takes people on my servers ages to get that I’m a “girl”.

And this is relevant how? It doesn’t change the fact that your mechanical skills as a thief is lacking. You’re more than welcome to spar with me on my dueling server so I can show you how mechanically inferior you are. Which then in turn will demonstrate that your opinion holds no worth in class balancing.

You do realize that if you beat her using her D/D build will only solidify the fact that D/D needs buff?

And if you beat her using D/P which will also solidify the fact that D/P needs a nerf?

You cannot possibly believe that the result of dueling will favor to the point you’re trying to make. That’s just dumb.

I main s/d. Enough said. Love how no one evens mentions sd

Are you sure no one?

And even with that weapon set, even if you use P/P, the result will still not favor you.

I rolled a Charr Thief before but ended up deleting it and my reason is that I don’t fancy the Charr culture even though some armor set looks really good on them.

Xeyon.6419:

Yeah I double checked and it does in fact not apply anything above 100% regardless of tooltip, as Vincent said above. Still fun to play around with the tool tips; I managed to get my Serpent’s Touch up to 33.5s in wvw.

lol, 33.5s — wouldn’t that be nice :P

Lettuce.2945:

Jana.6831:

Lettuce.2945:

So guys. I don’t know why you’re feeding into the delusions of a below average thief aka Jana. Just end thread and move on. This guy isn’t in any position to even suggest thief changes considering his skill level.

You wish =) Btw I’m a gal as stated in the first sentence of the OP.

One question though: Why does apperantly no one get that “Jana” is a female name – it baffles me. It usually takes people on my servers ages to get that I’m a “girl”.

And this is relevant how? It doesn’t change the fact that your mechanical skills as a thief is lacking. You’re more than welcome to spar with me on my dueling server so I can show you how mechanically inferior you are. Which then in turn will demonstrate that your opinion holds no worth in class balancing.

You do realize that if you beat her using her D/D build will only solidify the fact that D/D needs buff?

And if you beat her using D/P which will also solidify the fact that D/P needs a nerf?

You cannot possibly believe that the result of dueling will favor to the point you’re trying to make. That’s just dumb.

Jana.6831:

so easiest really might be to make no real set specific traits and that means the weapons have to be buffed – I guess there’s no way around it.

From the top of this page…

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The traits should be generic and without exclusivity. Trickery has too many exclusive traits that need to become available to every build possible. Then a Thief can pick and choose any trait line and any weapon set without feeling that they are missing something. I like the idea of tradeoff, but the Thief’s choices have become less and less comprehensive over time. Nowadays, the choices are nothing but superficial since in order to make Thief viable, the player needs to take the traits and weapon set that ArenaNet dictates.

lol @ DeceiverX.8361

Everything anyone is posting here is based on their opinion, their understanding, and their belief. Just like you, none of us speaks for everyone else, that much is a given. So it’s kind of petty to bring up such off-topic when it’s already expressed and implied in this thread that the basis of this thread is based on ones’ opinion, understanding, and belief. If you don’t accept what someone is saying, then that’s just your opinion, understanding, and belief are in conflict with their opinion, understanding and belief.

When it was mentioned that D/D is the most mobile weapon set, I, personally, cannot argue against it because it is true — for me — thus I agree with the statement. In addition, I also find S/D mobile, however, just as has been mentioned, it has a weird unreliable pathing (the skill say it stabs at the back but it doesn’t, for example). You’re arguing that S/D is more mobile, but I have to disagree with you on this one and yes, I do assume that is just your opinion even though you have not expressed it.

Xeyon.6419:

Just wanted to post some interesting findings.
So I tested this with under 100% duration and confirmed its multiplicative relationship.
Then I tested this with over 100%, using an expertise amulet, a venom sigil, and thorns runes for a total of 102.33% poison duration. The interesting relationship I found, was that instead of increasing my spider venom’s duration from 12s (6s base) to 16s, it instead increased it to 16.25s. Considering now that 6s * 2.0233 = 12.1398s which with a 33% modification would be ~16.15s, which would round up to a quarter for the tooltip. Very interesting indeed. Im going to do some additional testing in wvw and will repost.

As far as I know, the poison duration will max out at 12s regardless of how much additional duration you take. It’s interesting that the tooltip shows that.

Army of Ninjas.1580:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

In any case, potency is better than duration in terms of poison and bleeding. Duration only matters on conditions like cripple and chill.

If you look at your build, the 50% duration deals more DPS compare to the 66%.

If the goal is to deal as much poison dmg, you can deal even higher dps if you go Dire+Thorns Rune with only 30% condi duration.

I think you’re absolutely right, but imo it’s important to remember that poison duration is only completely useless in the context of damage, but in regards to heal effectiveness reduction it can actually be kinda useful

With Dire+Thorns Rune, the Poison duration will be extended rather than wasting stats trying to extend duration of all conditions through Expertise — as I said, if that is the goal.

Azukas.1426:

So let’s look at the grand scheme of things.

Lets say the vocal minority here who do not understand balance succeed and get DP nerfed to DD levels….what do you think the thief class will be after that? Please tell us what you think will happen from there.

You see, your question would have merit if you actually read the thread and find out for yourself that nobody is advocating the nerf D/P to D/D’s level before posting.

I can see this working with a healer partner (druid or trap DH) in protecting a node who can watch your back. However the Krait Rune is weak for this build and you’re better off with the Berserker Rune.

Jana.6831:

Kicker.8203:

Jana.6831:

D/D: In fight though there’s nothing more mobile than that set.

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

Surprising, eh?
I think after 2 years of D/D and 14 chars (of which 5 are D/D thieves) I can really say that. Reason why I fell in love with thief, especially D/D.

Edit: Spelling

I guess constantly moving to your target’s flank during combat does not qualify as mobility — I love S/D for this reason too.

Leohart.4610:

What motivates you to play your thief considering the wide arrays of abilities other classes bring to the table, pre-HoT and post-HoT?

I thought it would be funny to create a human noble who happen to be a Thief. Pure RPG reason.

What is it that keeps the class fresh to you?

Nothing. I stopped playing my Thief after beating HoT’s story.

Is it the concept of the class?

Nope. The profession has no concept. Currently it’s all over the place because ArenaNet can’t decide on what to do with the Thief. Core release, the Thief is mobile assassin type. Now it’s a wanna-be-warrior-with-passive-defense relying on AA to deal decent DPS.

Or perhaps the combat?

Nope. I played GW1 and I have an MM Necro, so my first pick in GW2 was Necro. But after finding out that Necro cannot even minion master like in GW1, I deleted it and rolled a Thief. Post-HoT, the Reaper rekindled my love for the Necro so I have not played my Thief ever since.

Jana.6831:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That’s actually one of the problems. The solution that ArenaNet comes up with not only helps D/D but also D/P. So in the end, the gap between D/P and the other sets are ever growing wider. To keep D/P in check, it needs to be nerfed.

Yes and no, right now at least the traits in SA favour only D/P – they’re merged in a way which doesn’t really benefit D/D – as both sets have got a different playstyle.

That’s also a yes and a no. There are D/P builds that goes DA/Tr/DrD so they never benefit from SA at all — so that’s a no. In core traits build — it’s a yes. I personally want Shadowstep to also benefit from SA and give CnD shadowstep.

ETA: Prepardness only really helps D/P.

Yes because it is a weapon set with the lowest total cost. In order for other sets to benefit from Preparedness, their total costs need to be standardized. Right now S/P, for example, is only useful when spec for Trick — without Trick, S/P is unusable.

ETA³: But I do want unblockable on CnD – I really can’t with all these passives flying around. And I want it without having to take BV (cast too long and I love my daggerstorm which is of more use to me anyway as I never know if my next fight will be a 1 vs 1 (haha), vs 5 or vs zerg).

CnD just need to have the casting cost removed really. This way I can capitalize on whatever small window I get during combat. There’s no valid reason to telegraph CnD anymore, it doesn’t deal as much damage as it used to be.

That’s not even chessy. What’s cheesy is the Endless Dodge Reborn.

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Midi.8359:

Again this is just being pedantic. Since I think D/P and D/D were equally buffed, and in the end there’s only two D/X weaponsets so you could say one benefiting more than the other is like the flip of a coin. But…

That’s actually one of the problems. The solution that ArenaNet comes up with not only helps D/D but also D/P. So in the end, the gap between D/P and the other sets are ever growing wider. To keep D/P in check, it needs to be nerfed.

Alternatively, they could buff the utility of offhand dagger and it wouldn’t buff D/P at all, plus it would close the gap between D/P and D/D + S/D + P/D.

I, personally, am open to any type of improvement to other weapon sets that don’t directly or indirectly buff D/P. The challenge is, you can’t do the same with off-hand pistol. So what would be the solution, buff main hand Pistol? If that would be the case, then P/D will have double buffs. The solution should not be localized on the weapon skills, instead, then should balance including some changes to the traits.

The traits should be generic and without exclusivity. Trickery has too many exclusive traits that need to become available to every build possible. Then a Thief can pick and choose any trait line and any weapon set without feeling that they are missing something. I like the idea of tradeoff, but the Thief’s choices have become less and less comprehensive over time. Nowadays, the choices are nothing but superficial since in order to make Thief viable, the player needs to take the traits and weapon set that ArenaNet dictates.

It is fairly obvious that they don’t want anything else but D/P in PvP since it makes balancing easy for them. However with such limitation, the Thief became really easy to counter. So the goal is to expand the choices and give Thief more tools and more role other than what ArenaNet have defined for them. The player should define their profession, not the Dev. If I like D/P and I like to deal condition damage, why isn’t that viable? A trait that grants condition damage should be available to all weapon set because when an enemy sees me using P/D it’s a dead giveaway that I have a condition damage build. The beautiful thing about D/D is that the enemy cannot predict what build I’m running.

Oh, look D/P, he’s going for stealth burst. Oh look, S/D, he’s going for boon strip evade spam. Oh look P/P single target high crit. It shouldn’t be a dead giveaway like that.

So if we go by your solution of buffing off-hand dagger, how exactly will it open up diversity in builds?

In any case, potency is better than duration in terms of poison and bleeding. Duration only matters on conditions like cripple and chill.

If you look at your build, the 50% duration deals more DPS compare to the 66%.

If the goal is to deal as much poison dmg, you can deal even higher dps if you go Dire+Thorns Rune with only 30% condi duration.

Arena would be fun…time to practice

Midi.8359:

Again this is just being pedantic. Since I think D/P and D/D were equally buffed, and in the end there’s only two D/X weaponsets so you could say one benefiting more than the other is like the flip of a coin. But…

That’s actually one of the problems. The solution that ArenaNet comes up with not only helps D/D but also D/P. So in the end, the gap between D/P and the other sets are ever growing wider. To keep D/P in check, it needs to be nerfed.

The trait buffs were to Acro/CS/SA. D/P uses none of these. Even the Shadow Shot bugfix was in CS which D/P doesn’t use.

Could say more but that would take away from the point. D/P just doesn’t use Acro/CS/SA. Even D/P off-meta variants stay within the realm of DA/Trick/Daredevil. I didn’t mention how the trait buffs don’t benefit D/P because I didn’t think you’d claim that they did. But they don’t. If anything D/D is more likely to use Acro/CS/SA than D/P is (For condi builds at the very least).

Most of the build doesn’t use those either or the buff didn’t really made a difference to the build because they don’t take those traits anyway. So what you call a buff is not really a buff. Just because it didn’t buffed D/P doesn’t necessarily means that it buffed other weapon sets.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Srsly do you have to type out whole walls of text? This thread got boring ages ago because of the amount of text here, reading the terms and conditions on iTunes is more interesting.

Then why are you still here? iTunes’ ToC got boring?

For starter, here’s my Build your Thief.

Shadow Swordsman
PvP – Dueling
Berserker Set
Runes of the Fighter and Sigil of Debility+Hobbling
S/D
- #1: Default
- #2: Infiltrator’s Strike – Cost 4 – Immob, Cure 1 condition (delete Infiltrator’s Return)
- #3: Larcenous Strike – Cost 5 – 1.5s evade, unblockable (delete Flanking Strike)
- #4: Dancing Dagger – Cost 3 – One bounce, cripples, dagger returns for 1 init refund, instant cast
- #5: Cloak and Dagger – Cost 5 – stealth, shadowstep to target, stab, apply vulnerability
Withdraw – Scorpion Wire – Haste (30s CD) – Signet of Agility
Elite Skill: Dagger Storm – Summon 5 shadow daggers – Stability while there are charges, use a charge to deal damage, bleeding, and cripple – 10s Duration – 60s CD
Critical Strikes
- Keen Observer: Crit hit chance: +5% – master no change – GM no change
- Flawless Strikes: Gain 1 init when non-AA skill crits – PT – NQ
Acrobatics
- Expeditious Dodger: Swiftness and Vigor +50% duration – Feline Grace: Passive: Regen +50% duration – Endless Stamina: Max Endurance +50
- Instant Reflexes: 50% chance to block an attack while under swiftness, 5s CD – HtC – DS
Shadow Arts
- Smoke Defense: Blind enemies take crit dmg – Meld with Shadows: deal nor take damage when you drop below 50% HP, 1s duration – Resilience of Shadows: Using shadowstep or applying stealth will apply Shadow Residue on the Thief. Shadow Residue: Reduce incoming damage by 25%, 3s Duration.
- Last Refuge: Remove Revealed, below 25% HP – Hidden Thief – Shadow Rejuvenation: Apply Regen (5s) after using shadowstep or stealth.
Comments: This is an idea duelist to me which it both acrobatic and tricky using the shadow arts.

Too many serious topics lately so let’s do something fun. The goal of this thread is not to discuss builds, meta, or what is/isn’t viable. Rather the goal is to post the build that will help you as a player to enjoy Guild Wars 2 on whatever it is that you do in game.

This is by no means a suggestion to any changes in game, rather to have a variety of different players having a preference on a certain build. So if ArenaNet is contemplating on changing something, they can review this thread and see how many players are going to be affected by their changes — good and bad.

There is no rules or limitation on what you want to build because the point is to show ArenaNet on what traits and skills that you need to have your own fun in GW2. However, we need some rules on what NOT to post so to keep this thread creative and fun.

Rules
- No criticism of build, leave the build as posted
- If you disagree with a posted build, you can post an alternative build with statement “Alternative to Build <name>”
- Remember that the build is what’s fun for the poster and not what’s fun for you or for everyone
- One build per post to keep it clean following the format below

The Format
Build Name
Build Purpose
Gear Set
Runes and Sigil
Weapon Set (ws)
- ws skill #1
- ws skill #2
- ws skill #3
- ws skill #4
- ws skill #5
Utility Skills
Elite Skill
Trait line #1
- minors
- majors
Trait Line #2
- minors
- majors
Trait Line #3
- minors
- majors
Comments

babazhook.6805:

A passive skill is one that does not require active keyboard intervention my the players part to trigger.

Maugetarr.6823:

A passive effect is something that triggers on the controlling player that they don’t actually have control over.

This is how ArenaNet defines a passive that is contrary to both of your understanding of it.

Signet of Malice: Passive: Heals when you attack.

As you can see, a passive effect is something additional to the actual effect of the skill. A heartseeker has no mean to give Thief stealth, however, when they leap through a smoke, HS get’s a passive effect that give Thief stealth.

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

Except that I actively used the dodge saving the endurance for the burst and repositioned. Had it not done damage there would be no question about using the dodge actively. In this scenario with damage both the dodge and the damage were active components of play. I didn’t mention hoping to dodge the burst, I kept enough endurance to wait for it and dodge it.

You said, “You aimed your dodge in an attempt to damage them using it as an attack”, thus the intention is clear that your goal is to do damage and relying on evade to passively negate the damage.

However, if you Bound backwards and happen to do damage to someone else, that damage is passive.

Here’s the thing. You mentioned intention here for the determination of a passive or active attack. Say I have untraited dodges with the endurance to use them and the availability of deathblossom. I have the choice of using either. I choose to use deathblossom because I want to counterattack. The intent is to both evade the damage and deal damage back to them. Neither effect is passive there.

The evade is passive.
- If you’re trying to evade target-1 and do damage to target-1, then the evade is passive in this scenario.
- If you’re trying to evade target-1 and damages target-2, then the damage is passive.
- If you’re trying to evade backward from target-1 but target-1 shadowstep to you then you happen to deal damage to target-1, the damage is still the passive.

Let’s blur the lines more. Is a skill that reflects a projectile passive or active.

Let’s use the engi flamethrower airblast as the example here. My intent is to stop a kill shot from hitting me. I could dodge it. I choose to reflect it instead. Is the reflection passive? It deals the kill shot back to the warrior. It seems that by your stance on counterattacking would define the reflected shot as a passive effect.

I think the confusion here is the difference between activated vs passive and skill vs effect.

Dodge is an activated skill, but the evade that comes with the dodge is the passive effect.

Activating a skill to apply a reflect effect is obviously not passive, since it is an activated skill. Once the skill is activated, the reflect effect does its thing without addition user input, thus it is passive.

Attacks can have both offensive and defensive aspects to them. That doesn’t make them passive. Deathblossom is not passive, just poorly designed because it’s spammable.

Nobody is saying that DB is passive, rather it has a passive effect depending on how you use it.

Let me put it this way. A boulder thrown by a snow wurm can hit multiple times (I know, used them for daily dodges). If you dodge the boulder, the evade effect will proc multiple times. If evade is not passive, then I will have to activate dodge for each possible hits making multiple activate evades. The fact that I don’t have to actively evade means that the evade effect is passive.

You are trying to separate cause and effect by way of duration. Under this classification, any cleave damage or an attack with multiple impacts would be considered a passive attack.

The attack is an activated skill — the hits, on the other hand, are not. The hit is one of the effects of the attack since the effect of an attack is either a hit or a miss. The initial hit is a direct result of activating the attack, the additional hits are passive effects.

That is a specious argument. That’s like saying you stabbed someone but didn’t kill them because they died of exsanguination.

Bleeding is another passive effect from DB. If they died from bleeding, then they died from bleeding. If you exhaust your initiative from using DB and your target died from multiple stacks of bleeding condition, then yes, they bled to death.

So damage is a passive effect within this game?

When you activate a weapon skill several things happen — activation -> hit or miss -> if hit, then damage, if miss, then no damage.

When you activate a condition skill several things happen — activation -> deal small damage to apply condition -> condition deals condition damage passively

The damage from a weapon skill is a direct result of the attack, thus it is not passive effect. However, if this attack has cleave, any additional damage after the first is passive.

In GW2, the game system requires that the skill will deal damage before a condition is applied. The condition itself deals condition damage which is passive since no additional input is needed from the user — the condition does what it’s suppose to do on its own.

So, asking that, “damage is a passive effect within this game?” is a little dishonest because I’m sure you know that that isn’t true nor what is being explained here.

Again, you are conflating duration with being passive. A condition is Damage over time. The damage is not passive. There might be passive application through traits over which you have no control. But imagine a skill does 1000 damage as soon as it hits. Now the skill does 200 damage for 5 seconds when it hits. The division of the damage over an interval of time does not affect the activation required to apply that damage.

But you’re not actively applying damage, just as you’re not actively evading a multiple hit attack.

Let me ask you, what do you think a passive effect is?

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

Except that I actively used the dodge saving the endurance for the burst and repositioned. Had it not done damage there would be no question about using the dodge actively. In this scenario with damage both the dodge and the damage were active components of play. I didn’t mention hoping to dodge the burst, I kept enough endurance to wait for it and dodge it.

You said, “You aimed your dodge in an attempt to damage them using it as an attack”, thus the intention is clear that your goal is to do damage and relying on evade to passively negate the damage.

However, if you Bound backwards and happen to do damage to someone else, that damage is passive.

Here’s the thing. You mentioned intention here for the determination of a passive or active attack. Say I have untraited dodges with the endurance to use them and the availability of deathblossom. I have the choice of using either. I choose to use deathblossom because I want to counterattack. The intent is to both evade the damage and deal damage back to them. Neither effect is passive there.

The evade is passive.
- If you’re trying to evade target-1 and do damage to target-1, then the evade is passive in this scenario.
- If you’re trying to evade target-1 and damages target-2, then the damage is passive.
- If you’re trying to evade backward from target-1 but target-1 shadowstep to you then you happen to deal damage to target-1, the damage is still the passive.

Let’s blur the lines more. Is a skill that reflects a projectile passive or active.

Let’s use the engi flamethrower airblast as the example here. My intent is to stop a kill shot from hitting me. I could dodge it. I choose to reflect it instead. Is the reflection passive? It deals the kill shot back to the warrior. It seems that by your stance on counterattacking would define the reflected shot as a passive effect.

I think the confusion here is the difference between activated vs passive and skill vs effect.

Dodge is an activated skill, but the evade that comes with the dodge is the passive effect.

Activating a skill to apply a reflect effect is obviously not passive, since it is an activated skill. Once the skill is activated, the reflect effect does its thing without addition user input, thus it is passive.

Attacks can have both offensive and defensive aspects to them. That doesn’t make them passive. Deathblossom is not passive, just poorly designed because it’s spammable.

Nobody is saying that DB is passive, rather it has a passive effect depending on how you use it.

Let me put it this way. A boulder thrown by a snow wurm can hit multiple times (I know, used them for daily dodges). If you dodge the boulder, the evade effect will proc multiple times. If evade is not passive, then I will have to activate dodge for each possible hits making multiple activate evades. The fact that I don’t have to actively evade means that the evade effect is passive.

You are trying to separate cause and effect by way of duration. Under this classification, any cleave damage or an attack with multiple impacts would be considered a passive attack.

The attack is an activated skill — the hits, on the other hand, are not. The hit is one of the effects of the attack since the effect of an attack is either a hit or a miss. The initial hit is a direct result of activating the attack, the additional hits are passive effects.

That is a specious argument. That’s like saying you stabbed someone but didn’t kill them because they died of exsanguination.

Bleeding is another passive effect from DB. If they died from bleeding, then they died from bleeding. If you exhaust your initiative from using DB and your target died from multiple stacks of bleeding condition, then yes, they bled to death.

So damage is a passive effect within this game?

When you activate a weapon skill several things happen — activation → hit or miss → if hit, then damage, if miss, then no damage.

When you activate a condition skill several things happen — activation → deal small damage to apply condition → condition deals condition damage passively

The damage from a weapon skill is a direct result of the attack, thus it is not passive effect. However, if this attack has cleave, any additional damage after the first is passive.

In GW2, the game system requires that the skill will deal damage before a condition is applied. The condition itself deals condition damage which is passive since no additional input is needed from the user — the condition does what it’s suppose to do on its own.

So, asking that, “damage is a passive effect within this game?” is a little dishonest because I’m sure you know that that isn’t true nor what is being explained here.

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

Except that I actively used the dodge saving the endurance for the burst and repositioned. Had it not done damage there would be no question about using the dodge actively. In this scenario with damage both the dodge and the damage were active components of play. I didn’t mention hoping to dodge the burst, I kept enough endurance to wait for it and dodge it.

You said, “You aimed your dodge in an attempt to damage them using it as an attack”, thus the intention is clear that your goal is to do damage and relying on evade to passively negate the damage.

However, if you Bound backwards and happen to do damage to someone else, that damage is passive.

Here’s the thing. You mentioned intention here for the determination of a passive or active attack. Say I have untraited dodges with the endurance to use them and the availability of deathblossom. I have the choice of using either. I choose to use deathblossom because I want to counterattack. The intent is to both evade the damage and deal damage back to them. Neither effect is passive there.

The evade is passive.
- If you’re trying to evade target-1 and do damage to target-1, then the evade is passive in this scenario.
- If you’re trying to evade target-1 and damages target-2, then the damage is passive.
- If you’re trying to evade backward from target-1 but target-1 shadowstep to you then you happen to deal damage to target-1, the damage is still the passive.

Let’s blur the lines more. Is a skill that reflects a projectile passive or active.

Let’s use the engi flamethrower airblast as the example here. My intent is to stop a kill shot from hitting me. I could dodge it. I choose to reflect it instead. Is the reflection passive? It deals the kill shot back to the warrior. It seems that by your stance on counterattacking would define the reflected shot as a passive effect.

I think the confusion here is the difference between activated vs passive and skill vs effect.

Dodge is an activated skill, but the evade that comes with the dodge is the passive effect.

Activating a skill to apply a reflect effect is obviously not passive, since it is an activated skill. Once the skill is activated, the reflect effect does its thing without addition user input, thus it is passive.

Attacks can have both offensive and defensive aspects to them. That doesn’t make them passive. Deathblossom is not passive, just poorly designed because it’s spammable.

Nobody is saying that DB is passive, rather it has a passive effect depending on how you use it.

Let me put it this way. A boulder thrown by a snow wurm can hit multiple times (I know, used them for daily dodges). If you dodge the boulder, the evade effect will proc multiple times. If evade is not passive, then I will have to activate dodge for each possible hits making multiple activate evades. The fact that I don’t have to actively evade means that the evade effect is passive.

You are trying to separate cause and effect by way of duration. Under this classification, any cleave damage or an attack with multiple impacts would be considered a passive attack.

The attack is an activated skill — the hits, on the other hand, are not. The hit is one of the effects of the attack since the effect of an attack is either a hit or a miss. The initial hit is a direct result of activating the attack, the additional hits are passive effects.

That is a specious argument. That’s like saying you stabbed someone but didn’t kill them because they died of exsanguination.

Bleeding is another passive effect from DB. If they died from bleeding, then they died from bleeding. If you exhaust your initiative from using DB and your target died from multiple stacks of bleeding condition, then yes, they bled to death.

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

Except that I actively used the dodge saving the endurance for the burst and repositioned. Had it not done damage there would be no question about using the dodge actively. In this scenario with damage both the dodge and the damage were active components of play. I didn’t mention hoping to dodge the burst, I kept enough endurance to wait for it and dodge it.

You said, “You aimed your dodge in an attempt to damage them using it as an attack”, thus the intention is clear that your goal is to do damage and relying on evade to passively negate the damage.

However, if you Bound backwards and happen to do damage to someone else, that damage is passive.

Here’s the thing. You mentioned intention here for the determination of a passive or active attack. Say I have untraited dodges with the endurance to use them and the availability of deathblossom. I have the choice of using either. I choose to use deathblossom because I want to counterattack. The intent is to both evade the damage and deal damage back to them. Neither effect is passive there.

The evade is passive.
- If you’re trying to evade target-1 and do damage to target-1, then the evade is passive in this scenario.
- If you’re trying to evade target-1 and damages target-2, then the damage is passive.
- If you’re trying to evade backward from target-1 but target-1 shadowstep to you then you happen to deal damage to target-1, the damage is still the passive.

Let’s blur the lines more. Is a skill that reflects a projectile passive or active.

Let’s use the engi flamethrower airblast as the example here. My intent is to stop a kill shot from hitting me. I could dodge it. I choose to reflect it instead. Is the reflection passive? It deals the kill shot back to the warrior. It seems that by your stance on counterattacking would define the reflected shot as a passive effect.

I think the confusion here is the difference between activated vs passive and skill vs effect.

Dodge is an activated skill, but the evade that comes with the dodge is the passive effect.

Activating a skill to apply a reflect effect is obviously not passive, since it is an activated skill. Once the skill is activated, the reflect effect does its thing without addition user input, thus it is passive.

Attacks can have both offensive and defensive aspects to them. That doesn’t make them passive. Deathblossom is not passive, just poorly designed because it’s spammable.

Nobody is saying that DB is passive, rather it has a passive effect depending on how you use it.

Let me put it this way. A boulder thrown by a snow wurm can hit multiple times (I know, used them for daily dodges). If you dodge the boulder, the evade effect will proc multiple times. If evade is not passive, then I will have to activate dodge for each possible hits making multiple activate evades. The fact that I don’t have to actively evade means that the evade effect is passive.

You are trying to separate cause and effect by way of duration. Under this classification, any cleave damage or an attack with multiple impacts would be considered a passive attack.

The attack is an activated skill — the hits, on the other hand, are not. The hit is one of the effects of the attack since the effect of an attack is either a hit or a miss. The initial hit is a direct result of activating the attack, the additional hits are passive effects.

Maugetarr.6823:

Except that I actively used the dodge saving the endurance for the burst and repositioned. Had it not done damage there would be no question about using the dodge actively. In this scenario with damage both the dodge and the damage were active components of play. I didn’t mention hoping to dodge the burst, I kept enough endurance to wait for it and dodge it.

You said, “You aimed your dodge in an attempt to damage them using it as an attack”, thus the intention is clear that your goal is to do damage and relying on evade to passively negate the damage.

However, if you Bound backwards and happen to do damage to someone else, that damage is passive.

Here’s the thing. You mentioned intention here for the determination of a passive or active attack. Say I have untraited dodges with the endurance to use them and the availability of deathblossom. I have the choice of using either. I choose to use deathblossom because I want to counterattack. The intent is to both evade the damage and deal damage back to them. Neither effect is passive there.

The evade is passive.
- If you’re trying to evade target-1 and do damage to target-1, then the evade is passive in this scenario.
- If you’re trying to evade target-1 and damages target-2, then the damage is passive.
- If you’re trying to evade backward from target-1 but target-1 shadowstep to you then you happen to deal damage to target-1, the damage is still the passive.

Let’s blur the lines more. Is a skill that reflects a projectile passive or active.

Let’s use the engi flamethrower airblast as the example here. My intent is to stop a kill shot from hitting me. I could dodge it. I choose to reflect it instead. Is the reflection passive? It deals the kill shot back to the warrior. It seems that by your stance on counterattacking would define the reflected shot as a passive effect.

I think the confusion here is the difference between activated vs passive and skill vs effect.

Dodge is an activated skill, but the evade that comes with the dodge is the passive effect.

Activating a skill to apply a reflect effect is obviously not passive, since it is an activated skill. Once the skill is activated, the reflect effect does its thing without addition user input, thus it is passive.

Attacks can have both offensive and defensive aspects to them. That doesn’t make them passive. Deathblossom is not passive, just poorly designed because it’s spammable.

Nobody is saying that DB is passive, rather it has a passive effect depending on how you use it.

Let me put it this way. A boulder thrown by a snow wurm can hit multiple times (I know, used them for daily dodges). If you dodge the boulder, the evade effect will proc multiple times. If evade is not passive, then I will have to activate dodge for each possible hits making multiple activate evades. The fact that I don’t have to actively evade means that the evade effect is passive.

runeblade.7514:

According to this thread, Everything is a passive.

• Auto attack is a passive.
• Boons is a passive.
• Weapon skills is passive.
• Utility skills is passive
• Elite skills is passive.
• Healing skills is passive.
• Immunity is a passive.
• Burst skills is a passive.
• Offensive support is a passive.
• Actives is a passive.
• Passive is passive.

Don’t convolute the thread with idiotic comments.

Serious Thought.5394:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Spartacus.5243:

DeceiverX.8361:

I’d argue DA is better overall due to similar damage and the control and healing it offers. On steal, you get heal cut + weakness + damage + self-heal, with utility on Panic Strike and bonus damage on executioner for the +1 role better.

CS is definitely a worse trait line. That said, when talking strictly burst damage output potential, CS > DA, but again, only marginally so.

Just lol @ taking executioner when running DA. improvisation is what makes DA good. so without executioner CS is more than just marginally better in burst

I have to agree. When I take DA, I go for Improv rather than Exec.

My highest ability cooldown is 32 seconds. I don’t take Improv XD.

The double use of stolen item is what makes a difference when fighting any class. The ability CD reset is trivial.

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

Jana.6831:

Yes that is, but I doubt that people spamming vault really do so because they want to evade.
No matter how you turn it: skills like that are bad. They can be nice in moderation but not if they’re “spammable”. ETA: Spammable also by having multiple skills that do the same thing.

Actively spamming the same skill may be poor play, but it’s not passive. We can talk about how poorly a skill is designed, but it still requires input from the player, meaning it’s not passive. Let’s move beyond vault to a power spec D/D build. Using deathblossom to evade an incoming attack is going to do virtually no damage, however you may use it to evade an incoming attack when you can’t dodge because you’re out of endurance or immobilized. That doesn’t mean deathblossom is a passive skill. You’re actively using it to evade in response to an incoming attack.

DB is an active attack while passively evading attacks. At the same time, DB is an active evade while passively doing damage. I get what she’s saying.

In case of dodges (by extansion DD GM), it’s an active position displacement with a passive evade effect, so if you didn’t roll (or Dash) far enough, the passive evade will negate the damage.

The problem I have is that this argument is conflating passive play and poor skill design.

Let’s use your example of the GM dodges. You’re fighting someone and both at low health. You have bound equipped. The opponent tries to land their burst and you counter by dodging into them, both evading the burst and attacking them. Which part of that is passive? You aimed your dodge in an attempt to damage them using it as an attack. You waited for their burst so you would have the endurance to dodge it.

In this scenario, you’re using Bound as an active attack while hoping that the passive evade will negate the damage. This is not different than if you choose to use DB.

Both the evade and damage of deathblossom are active, but the combination is poorly designed which leads to spam and a low skill floor.

Not always. If your intention is to deal damage, then you’re hoping for the passive evade to do its job. You can actively use DB to evade with no intention to do damage, thus when you actually dealt damage, then that’s just a passive effect.

Maugetarr.6823:

Jana.6831:

Yes that is, but I doubt that people spamming vault really do so because they want to evade.
No matter how you turn it: skills like that are bad. They can be nice in moderation but not if they’re “spammable”. ETA: Spammable also by having multiple skills that do the same thing.

Actively spamming the same skill may be poor play, but it’s not passive. We can talk about how poorly a skill is designed, but it still requires input from the player, meaning it’s not passive. Let’s move beyond vault to a power spec D/D build. Using deathblossom to evade an incoming attack is going to do virtually no damage, however you may use it to evade an incoming attack when you can’t dodge because you’re out of endurance or immobilized. That doesn’t mean deathblossom is a passive skill. You’re actively using it to evade in response to an incoming attack.

DB is an active attack while passively evading attacks. At the same time, DB is an active evade while passively doing damage. I get what she’s saying.

In case of dodges (by extansion DD GM), it’s an active position displacement with a passive evade effect, so if you didn’t roll (or Dash) far enough, the passive evade will negate the damage.

Jana.6831:

They are passives as you don’t chose “I want to evade” but the skill does this for you.
Hard to catch was a bad trait, yes, it’s a better trait now – still it’s a passive and that was my point. Thief survivability now lies in passively evading 50% of the attacks – not what I want in this game.
What anet should do: Stop listening to players and learn how their own game works – problem: Most are D/P so “everything” suits D/P – what should I do? Quit the game as I have no voice?

Now that you mentioned it, it seems that the aim for all these passives is to give D/P access to evasion. It makes sense. Instead of D/P going in SA for defense, they can pick up Acro instead where they can continue to AA while the passive evade makes sure that they can keep the pressure.

SE, SP, and SR from SA replaced by PR(or IR), GI, and UH from Acro.

This is just wrong.

Spartacus.5243:

DeceiverX.8361:

I’d argue DA is better overall due to similar damage and the control and healing it offers. On steal, you get heal cut + weakness + damage + self-heal, with utility on Panic Strike and bonus damage on executioner for the +1 role better.

CS is definitely a worse trait line. That said, when talking strictly burst damage output potential, CS > DA, but again, only marginally so.

Just lol @ taking executioner when running DA. improvisation is what makes DA good. so without executioner CS is more than just marginally better in burst

I have to agree. When I take DA, I go for Improv rather than Exec.

yolo swaggins.2570:

@ Vincent

Most thief weapon skills have high utility and are a means to active defense on demand. Only a few of them are meant for damage. The only reason why ranged hasn’t gotten the buffs it needs yet is because you have facetank heroes going around thinking that ranged is for kitten and/or boring to use (relative). And they do this without considering that most ranged weapons in this game sacrifice utility for damage and vice versa.

The question is; Is this the direction we like to take our weapon skills to?

Accepting the idea that initiatives are for utility use is abandoning what the Thief game play is all about. I’m sure that we don’t need to be reminded what that is. The bottom line is, Thief should not be about AA, rather about dumping the initiative as much as possible. AA is for soldier class (Warrior, Guard, Rev), not for adventurer class. Just look at the other adventurer classes, I play both Eng and Ranger, I rarely AA. So, I’m really confused on why the Thief is being diverted to a path of auto-attacking.

Thieves only AA (or run) when they ran out of initiatives. Instead of improving the Thief’s staying power by giving them tools they can use, the Dev think that increasing AA dmg is the way to go. It’s mind boggling to think that they go through their iteration process and this is the best they can come up with? That’s simply hard to believe.

babazhook.6805:

Kicker.8203:

Have to give the point to Sir Vincent. This trait and the whole acro traitline is utter crap.

I’m glad they fixed sword auto aftercasts and bandit’s defense but I expected a “bit” more from this kind of patch that we get every 4 months.

He uses the line so how can it be “utter crap” ?

That’s right. I’m not condemning the whole traitline, just the traits that supposed to have gone through a “rework” as oppose to “tweaks”.

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

If you want to call it powercreep, that’s fine, but I’m talking about bringing an unterperforming weapon up to the same level as a currently functional one. That’s more like balancing it. Right now it’s underperfoming and sets that can’t cover the holes in utility are suffering for it. I already mentioned though that taking virtually all the damage out of shadowshot would not hurt the D/P set because the set is well designed. Offhand dagger is not well designed because it lacks utility and damage. It needs buffs.

Then why not take the damage out of SS and call it a day then, if it would not hurt it anyway as you said? That would be a skill worth nerfing, just as have been explained here multiple times already.

However the goal of this thread is not to nerf D/P to the ground, rather toned it down so that SS don’t deal more damage than CnD, then give CnD a utility, preferably blind, via trait (CiS) or innate ability. Personally I want ShadowStep with CnD, but it’s not about what I want.

Well we agree on this, however, this could also be considered powercreep to do this and rather not kitten in the design of thief based on your previous statement. Nerfing D/P is more akin to simply removing Preparedness and the CDR of SoH.

It’s not powercreep because it already exists, rather it allows for more diverse build collection.

Nerfing Shadowshot would be enough, no need to nerf it to the ground.

Which is really just going back to the root issue of lack of utility on OH dagger (and the associated dual skills).

Exactly. There are 2 issues being addressed here, 1) Nerf SS and 2) allow x/D easy access to blind. Simply giving x/D access to blind will not fix the problem, SS needs to be nerfed at the same time to balance the weapon sets.

Sure. Nerf shadowshot.

However, doing that and simply making CnD blind is not enough to help make D/D competitive. It still lacks good gap closers, any decent soft or hard cc, any condi removal.

That’s where the trait adjustments come into play. Each weapon set needs to be viable.

If your original intention was to only nerf shadowshot, you should have made that clear in the title or first post as we’ve had to go around and around on the fact that nerfing any other skills would have a larger effect than intended by the statement “Nerf D/P.”

I think “Nerf D/P” is accurate since the point of this thread is not just about SS.

Azukas.1426:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Aidal.4901:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dancing_Dagger Ranged attack, it might be puny, but it’s ranged.

If you want false technicality there you go. But when it comes to meta the ranged aspect of the pistol offhand is completely overlooked by its usage as in utility. And Meta is the only thing that does/should matter since it revolves around choosing the superior choice.

Get out of here…now that’s just petty and silly.

There’s a big difference between a “ranged attack” and a “ranged weapon set”.

And Meta doesn’t matter because ArenaNet is not balancing based on the Meta. They said it themselves, they balanced based on all aspect of the game which include both PvP and WvW.

But I’ll bow out man.You win, I won’t argue. We done, and I won’t visit this thread again.

You don’t add anything constructive anyway.

He’s actually right lol.

Right about what?

You want to play D/D in today’s game then you all need to change your builds.

If I can’t play with D/D, then might as well delete it. If ArenaNet wants it to be an option, then make it viable. It’s really that simple.

1st drop SA
2nd I incorporate as many gap closers as possible
3rd accept that the set isn’t what it was

Delete it then, so we don’t have to talk about it.

There now stop trying to nerf something that is perfectly balanced with the rest of the game

For starter, SS dealing more damage than CnD is not balance since it doesn’t justify their cost and the difficulty of use.

Maugetarr.6823:

If you want to call it powercreep, that’s fine, but I’m talking about bringing an unterperforming weapon up to the same level as a currently functional one. That’s more like balancing it. Right now it’s underperfoming and sets that can’t cover the holes in utility are suffering for it. I already mentioned though that taking virtually all the damage out of shadowshot would not hurt the D/P set because the set is well designed. Offhand dagger is not well designed because it lacks utility and damage. It needs buffs.

Then why not take the damage out of SS and call it a day then, if it would not hurt it anyway as you said? That would be a skill worth nerfing, just as have been explained here multiple times already.

However the goal of this thread is not to nerf D/P to the ground, rather toned it down so that SS don’t deal more damage than CnD, then give CnD a utility, preferably blind, via trait (CiS) or innate ability. Personally I want ShadowStep with CnD, but it’s not about what I want.

Well we agree on this, however, this could also be considered powercreep to do this and rather not kitten in the design of thief based on your previous statement. Nerfing D/P is more akin to simply removing Preparedness and the CDR of SoH.

It’s not powercreep because it already exists, rather it allows for more diverse build collection.

Nerfing Shadowshot would be enough, no need to nerf it to the ground.

Which is really just going back to the root issue of lack of utility on OH dagger (and the associated dual skills).

Exactly. There are 2 issues being addressed here, 1) Nerf SS and 2) allow x/D easy access to blind. Simply giving x/D access to blind will not fix the problem, SS needs to be nerfed at the same time to balance the weapon sets.

Aidal.4901:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dancing_Dagger Ranged attack, it might be puny, but it’s ranged.

If you want false technicality there you go. But when it comes to meta the ranged aspect of the pistol offhand is completely overlooked by its usage as in utility. And Meta is the only thing that does/should matter since it revolves around choosing the superior choice.

Get out of here…now that’s just petty and silly.

There’s a big difference between a “ranged attack” and a “ranged weapon set”.

And Meta doesn’t matter because ArenaNet is not balancing based on the Meta. They said it themselves, they balanced based on all aspect of the game which include both PvP and WvW.

But I’ll bow out man.You win, I won’t argue. We done, and I won’t visit this thread again.

You don’t add anything constructive anyway.

Aidal.4901:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Aidal.4901:

@Vincent

I’m proving D/D needs to be reworked, because as it stands D/P is outright better, but adjusting the 4 and 5 would literally shatter a lot of the meta. OP needs to get her priorities straight.

That’s the point all along — D/P is so much better, nobody is arguing that it isn’t, so I’m not so sure what you’re arguing against…you need to make sense.

OP’s major beef as that D/P isn’t a melee class soley because of D/P 3. Completely ignoring everything else about D/P.

I was calling OP out for being poorly informed, and even educating them on how to structure an argument.

You can go back to whatever you were doin’ man. My pet peeve is when people just don’t argue right, debates and things should be fun and factual.

It also need to make sense.

D/P is not a melee weapon set based on the fact that it uses Pistol offhand. So you’re wrong on that part.

Staff, D/D, S/D are melee weapon sets since they don’t use any ranged weapon.

At this point, you’re just convoluting the thread with your false technicalities.