Guild Wars 2

Aidal.4901:

@Vincent

I’m proving D/D needs to be reworked, because as it stands D/P is outright better, but adjusting the 4 and 5 would literally shatter a lot of the meta. OP needs to get her priorities straight.

That’s the point all along — D/P is so much better, nobody is arguing that it isn’t, so I’m not so sure what you’re arguing against…you need to make sense.

Aidal.4901:

Jana.6831:

Aidal.4901:

You could form your argument a bit better?

Sure I can: If you have no idea how to use that weaponset then why are you even trying to tell me that I’m wrong?!

Literally highlighted strengths and weaknesses and you say that.

lemme be blunt, D/D lacks utility, so its horrible. Even if 3 was removed entirely, D/P still has a stun and cloak on demand answer these two with a yes or no, nothing more.

Does D/D have a stun?

Does D/D have cloak on demand?

You do realize that you’re only proving the point of this thread right?

Maugetarr.6823:

Jana.6831:

@ Aidal: D/P isn’t melee – try D/D for a bit and realize that the gap closer 3 offers you a completely different playstyle which isn’t melee.

@ Maugetarr: The problem and reason why I called for a nerf is that each thief has got access to all traits – that was the initial “problem”.
Overall all other sets either need a massive buff (which isn’t that easy as D mainhand and D offhand, P mainhand and P offhand always have the same skills – and it just happens to synergize ridiculously well with D/P) – or D/P should be toned down so we can get useful traits “for all” thieves (D/P is that independend that it works with any traits) which wouldn’t make D/P op and call for an overall nerf for thief which would leave us at the start again.
If you look at all traits D/D, D/P, P/D usually use, you’ll find that all possible builds are suited for D/P, that’s another problem. And it’s really their playstyle – hidden killer doesn’t really help me even with the buff – it further buffs D/P – it feels as if our class revolves around D/P.
I also mentioned that D/P now does more damage than D/D and I don’t see why this is justified.

And yes this thread was also meant as a “HEY ANET WE’VE GOT A PROBLEM, PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE THIS!!”
I mean they can bring out another expansion with new elites or they can care for the x vanilla specs of all classes which have been left behind.

Edit: Added stuff as the former sentence didn’t make sense.

You’ve identified the problem, but here the tac you’ve taken is in the wrong direction. You identified that D/P works properly, so it can basically use all of the available traits. The solution isn’t to bring down D/P so that it requires certain traits to function correctly, but bring the other sets up to par so that they can function with any sets of traits as well.

That’s power creep and it’s not good for the game, thus the aim of the thread is to bring D/P down enough to meet the other set in the middle. Then fix the traits so that all sets can benefit. starting with CiS going to Master.

Your underlying theme is to make certain traits mandatory for certain weaponsets, which is not going to help thief build diversity, but going to hurt it. Look at how virtually every thief is locked into trickery to be competitive. The solution isn’t to remove preparedness, BT, and SoH, because would objectively just make thief weaker. The objective is to look at what makes trickery mandatory and try to incorporate some of it into the core thief to lessen the disparity between deciding to take trickery or forego it.

It’s quite obvious why Trickery is staple: 15 init pool and Steal CDR. Make those default then Trick would not be that important.

You’re looking at the situation backwards. It’s not justified for D/D to lack the damage because it doesn’t have the utility to make up for it. Utility needs to be brought up to par. The only reason D/P is doing more damage than D/D is because it’s staying on target so much better. Shadowshot damage might be overtuned, but it’s equal to less than 1 second of autoattacking at this point. It they removed virtually all the damage from shadowshot, the overall set would barely feel it.

I would argue that it’s not about D/P’s ability to stick to target, rather it has access to blind that allows the set to stay longer than D/D — which is one of the issues brought up having CiS in GM.

Cam Ron.4170:

Is Anet really that stupid?

It’s not stupidity. It’s a strategic decision to remove S/x from PvP or in tourney. It’s plain obvious — they want to limit the number of weapon set they need to balance. Before it’s just D/P, then Staff starts to creep in.

Sword would be problematic because it can overshadow Staff and that would be bad for business — they need to sell HoT.

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The problem is, as long as D/P is in the spotlight, other sets are left in the dark not just D/D.

Taking D/P out of the spotlight until it’s not viable to play wouldn’t help the other sets, it would simply limit thief to the next best set (staff). The other sets don’t magically become the better versus other classes. The problem is the weak offhand dagger. S/D is still objectively weaker than the aforementioned (disregarding DPS for a second) because 2 of that set’s skills are undertuned. S/D’s 1, 2, and 3 can make up for these shortcomings. D/D can’t make up for the lack of utility. Buffing offhand dagger to a competitive level would help the 3 underperfoming combinations whereas nerfing D/P just tears down D/P and possibly 3 other sets depending on the extent of the nerfs.

Let’s look at a different class for a second. Ele dagger is in a much better place than ele scepter. They shouldn’t be asking for nerfs to dagger mainhand to bring down both sets to an uncompetitive level, but instead they need to buff scepter to a competive level that fills a different playstyle/niche.

Back to thief, OH dagger simply isn’t competitive with OH pistol. It doesn’t have the damage or utility. Buffing the utility of it by adding something unique that pistol doesn’t have is the way to go. This could be shadowsteps (as I and others have suggested), condi clears, boon hate, life gain, superspeed, quickness, blinds, or whatever you want (within reason). The ways they could improve oh dagger is almost unlimited while the only thing that nerfing D/P is going to accomplish is removing a competitive set and perhaps hurting 3 other already weak ones.

The buff and nerfs were not aimed at the weapon set, rather at the number of traits available for D/P compare to the traits available to D/D and other sets.

Cynz.9437:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The problem is, as long as D/P is in the spotlight, other sets are left in the dark not just D/D.

so let’s nerf dp and embrace vault spam………… okkkk

That doesn’t even make sense. Trying to be funny?

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Still crap since confusion can punish a Thief if it’s covered by other conditions that this trait removes.

If confusion is covered by both weakness and vuln, the Thief will take damage from confusion for the first 2 attacks, which can bring the Thief well below 75%, thus the 3rd attack that should remove confusion will not trigger and the Thief will take another damage.

yet it works both ways.

In my s/d build as example where I tested the trait last night were I to have a burn and vuln stacked on me and used Infiltrators to get rid of it I would have to use it twice if the first one used took away the vuln (depending on priority). If I have this running and attack right away a single infiltrators will get rid of both.

As such this really helps make single condi removal traits more powerful. It means escapists triggering will not remove a vuln or slow. It means trickster running makes it likelier that sngle extra removal will be a damaging condition rather then vuln/slow/weakness.

The key to maximizing its use is attacking early and often so that weakness/vuln/slow is never on you and any confusions stacks that follow will get stripped away.

it also effective against power classes that use conditions to leverage their main attacks. As example a thief that likes to load weakness on you to setup his next attacks or a class that loads up vuln stacks so that his regular attacks hit harder. The 75 percent threshold makes a big difference here as you do have time to get that attack off and clear osome of those conditions.

It does require some thought to use well such as “I got 25 stacks of vuln on me and 70 percent health , use withdraw attack and vuln gone” but I do not mind that.

Is this enough to warrant taking it? It might need something like on removing one of these conditions via this trait gain 1 sec resistance but it too early to tell yet.

Keep in mind that this trait is competing for the same slot as Hard to Catch, so no, it is not worth picking regardless of the conditional situations where it can excel. There are other more reliable traits and skills that I can pickup instead of this one. If this trait removes all those selective conditions plus one other unspecified condition then it might be worth considering.

This trait is more then just a little reliable. The low cooldown and easy trigger is key here. It every one second one of those conditions cleared as long as you attack. Attacking is easy.

The main issue I’m having is that the new attack speed is proc’ing confusion more than once while this trait is on cooldown before actually removing it. Still the best course of action when I have confusion on me is to stop attacking rather than relying on this trait to remove it.

Stack this up against SE and it compares favorobly , a condition every second taken off but unlike SE you do not stealth and stop attacking to do so. You just keep up the pressure.

SE is actually a better choice against confusion because attacking triggers the damage. The current AA sequence of Dagger, for example, is just a little over 1s which means that confusion will trigger twice before getting removed. The Thief is basically applying pressure to him/herself.

Now it needs a limitation thus the 75 percent threshold and that is FINE but you have to use this in a build that has a good ongoing source of heals. If not prepared to go that route HTC a much better choice.

That’s the problem. The conditions that this trait is dealing with are none threat and more detrimental when trying to remove these conditions through this trait. It’s counter-productive.

I was using this on S/d with IP and assassins traited to test its effficiency and you can push your health up over 75 percent rather easily and then clear those conditions off.

I have yet to try with staff but I am pretty sure this will work real nice with Staff and IP traited from the CS line where you can get those big fat heals in off those AOE vaults. Push health back over 75 percent and conditions come off.

You’re simply covering this trait’s inefficiency with IP.

It definitely works well in an SOM d/d condition build.

Again, simply covering it’s inefficiency with SoM.

Now HTC ia a great skill and one that hard to give up for that fat endurance gain and stunbreak but if i trait RFI or Infiltrators signet or Shadowstep I should have plenty of stunbreaks. Do I need all that endurance? Time will tell. I am going to stick with it for a bit.

HtC is great since it frees up a utility slot and allows me to take an offensive skill instead (i.e. Fist Flurry) rather than Bandit’s Defense.

By the same token I do not have to trait condition cleanses in ultility with this running in Acro. There is nothing inefficient about working around with heals to clean conditions. In fact this is the defintion of greater efficiency when you can get those heals to do more then just heal.We do not trait heals just to clean conditions. Heals are heals and work in their own right.

This is like claiming “Trickster ineffcient because we have to use withdraw to clear that extra condition” All this (GI trait) does is ADD to those other heals (ip/assassins) or add yet another condition cleanse to your existing heal.

There’s a big difference between Trickster and GI, Trickster doesn’t discriminate conditions and has no ICD in addition to the Trick Skills CDR. It is the most reliable condition removal trait and without the HP threshold limitations.

Now it may it be inefficient to use your regular heal utility just to get over that 75 percent so as to kick in this rather then wait until it much lower so you can get more healing off the same , but there are going to be a whole lot of times when you have reasons to use that utility heal then and there such as getting over 90 percent for scholars or ensuring you over 50 percent so that the enemies “when enemies health under 50 percent” traits do not kick in.

It is NOT efficient to fight a thief traited for Executioner and run at leass then 50 percent health. Stay above 50 percent and that a whole lot of mitigation. the same applies to necores and Close to death and so on.

If you have multiple stacks of confusion and you’re using dagger MH, you’re better off stop attacking rather than relying on this trait to remove the condition. Seriously, there’s no need to wonder about your HP or anything else, the conditions that this trait removes are non-threats as long as you stop attacking. The trait is not just inefficient, it’s also non-essential.

The problem is, as long as D/P is in the spotlight, other sets are left in the dark not just D/D.

Zidd.6083:

Nerf D/P to make D/D more viable… Lol… I’m sorry, but if that is not the dumbest I have heard in a while, I don’t know what it is.

That comment is dumber because you jumped to a wrong conclusion.

To reach an equilibrium, the gap between D/P and D/D needs to be addressed. Your wrong conclusion shows that you think that this thread wants D/P to go down to D/D’s level, well that is not what this thread is about.

Rather, this thread (if you read it) illustrated that to make D/D viable is not to buff it to D/P’s level instead they both need to reach an equilibrium by nerfing D/P and buffing D/D at the same time — in other words, meeting both sets half way in the middle.

In addition, if D/P is nerfed to meet D/D in the middle, others believe that D/P will be underpowered, thus the OP states that “let us all be unviable so they finally work on the rest of thief and not just assume that everybody plays D/P” which is the main goal to attract attention to the bad weapon sets choices the Thief have.

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Still crap since confusion can punish a Thief if it’s covered by other conditions that this trait removes.

If confusion is covered by both weakness and vuln, the Thief will take damage from confusion for the first 2 attacks, which can bring the Thief well below 75%, thus the 3rd attack that should remove confusion will not trigger and the Thief will take another damage.

yet it works both ways.

In my s/d build as example where I tested the trait last night were I to have a burn and vuln stacked on me and used Infiltrators to get rid of it I would have to use it twice if the first one used took away the vuln (depending on priority). If I have this running and attack right away a single infiltrators will get rid of both.

As such this really helps make single condi removal traits more powerful. It means escapists triggering will not remove a vuln or slow. It means trickster running makes it likelier that sngle extra removal will be a damaging condition rather then vuln/slow/weakness.

The key to maximizing its use is attacking early and often so that weakness/vuln/slow is never on you and any confusions stacks that follow will get stripped away.

it also effective against power classes that use conditions to leverage their main attacks. As example a thief that likes to load weakness on you to setup his next attacks or a class that loads up vuln stacks so that his regular attacks hit harder. The 75 percent threshold makes a big difference here as you do have time to get that attack off and clear osome of those conditions.

It does require some thought to use well such as “I got 25 stacks of vuln on me and 70 percent health , use withdraw attack and vuln gone” but I do not mind that.

Is this enough to warrant taking it? It might need something like on removing one of these conditions via this trait gain 1 sec resistance but it too early to tell yet.

Keep in mind that this trait is competing for the same slot as Hard to Catch, so no, it is not worth picking regardless of the conditional situations where it can excel. There are other more reliable traits and skills that I can pickup instead of this one. If this trait removes all those selective conditions plus one other unspecified condition then it might be worth considering.

This trait is more then just a little reliable. The low cooldown and easy trigger is key here. It every one second one of those conditions cleared as long as you attack. Attacking is easy.

The main issue I’m having is that the new attack speed is proc’ing confusion more than once while this trait is on cooldown before actually removing it. Still the best course of action when I have confusion on me is to stop attacking rather than relying on this trait to remove it.

Stack this up against SE and it compares favorobly , a condition every second taken off but unlike SE you do not stealth and stop attacking to do so. You just keep up the pressure.

SE is actually a better choice against confusion because attacking triggers the damage. The current AA sequence of Dagger, for example, is just a little over 1s which means that confusion will trigger twice before getting removed. The Thief is basically applying pressure to him/herself.

Now it needs a limitation thus the 75 percent threshold and that is FINE but you have to use this in a build that has a good ongoing source of heals. If not prepared to go that route HTC a much better choice.

That’s the problem. The conditions that this trait is dealing with are none threat and more detrimental when trying to remove these conditions through this trait. It’s counter-productive.

I was using this on S/d with IP and assassins traited to test its effficiency and you can push your health up over 75 percent rather easily and then clear those conditions off.

I have yet to try with staff but I am pretty sure this will work real nice with Staff and IP traited from the CS line where you can get those big fat heals in off those AOE vaults. Push health back over 75 percent and conditions come off.

You’re simply covering this trait’s inefficiency with IP.

It definitely works well in an SOM d/d condition build.

Again, simply covering it’s inefficiency with SoM.

Now HTC ia a great skill and one that hard to give up for that fat endurance gain and stunbreak but if i trait RFI or Infiltrators signet or Shadowstep I should have plenty of stunbreaks. Do I need all that endurance? Time will tell. I am going to stick with it for a bit.

HtC is great since it frees up a utility slot and allows me to take an offensive skill instead (i.e. Fist Flurry) rather than Bandit’s Defense.

Zodryn.4216:

AsurasRCute.4136:

Zodryn.4216:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Zodryn.4216:

Also might do a Viper Zerk rune test if anyone is interested.

That would be interesting although it’s obvious that Dagger will win this.

Most definitely. I’ll probably also throw in pistol for that test.

That’ll be really interesting – cheers! If it’s not too much work, I’d be really grateful if you could include pistol in your top post’s numbers as well, using the same method. I won’t make any big point out of it, but it’d be interesting to see what we’re dealing with here.

Viper numbers are posted. I’ll add pistol DPS to the other tests when I can, but based on the viper test, I wouldn’t expect much.

lol @ pistol AA…so horrible.

I personally have no complaints about Acro (even though the changes didn’t affect me) or any other skills and traits changes. My personal problem is the fact that Thief is not about auto-attacks, we have initiatives for a very good reason.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Our damage has been increased and loaded onto AA so we can feel more comfortable using initiative for their utility and survivability instead of burning it down to nothing trying to kill before they are killed.

That’s my problem with this patch. I don’t want to reserve my initiative for utility or survivability. This is where the disconnect is. The main purpose of the initiative is to use it to initiate not to reserve it for other things. If this will be the case, then they ought to rename it to “Energy” instead. If that is their goal, calling it “Initiative” is a misnomer. Also that idea doesn’t apply to all weapon sets with crap skills (i.e. P/P).

This change didn’t really do anything for the get-in-burst-get-out type of play style either. There are also no changes that would give Thief more staying power so that they can effectively AA in melee. Evading means that AA stops so these two doesn’t really go hand in hand. What the Thief really need is either an increase in Initiative pool or reduced initiative cost on weapon skills and let the Thief make the decision on how to spend those initiatives rather than trying to dictate that initiatives should be reserved for utility and survivability. It’s not like the Thief’s weapon skills grants block, protection, or health regen, those would have been worth saving initiatives for, so that they can continue auto-attacking. The idea might have merit if this is the case, but since the Thief’s weapon skills are mostly damage oriented, saving initiative doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

Yeah I’ve noticed that BV’s unblockability is too strong even when using P/P. Unblockable Unload is just not fair.

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Still crap since confusion can punish a Thief if it’s covered by other conditions that this trait removes.

If confusion is covered by both weakness and vuln, the Thief will take damage from confusion for the first 2 attacks, which can bring the Thief well below 75%, thus the 3rd attack that should remove confusion will not trigger and the Thief will take another damage.

yet it works both ways.

In my s/d build as example where I tested the trait last night were I to have a burn and vuln stacked on me and used Infiltrators to get rid of it I would have to use it twice if the first one used took away the vuln (depending on priority). If I have this running and attack right away a single infiltrators will get rid of both.

As such this really helps make single condi removal traits more powerful. It means escapists triggering will not remove a vuln or slow. It means trickster running makes it likelier that sngle extra removal will be a damaging condition rather then vuln/slow/weakness.

The key to maximizing its use is attacking early and often so that weakness/vuln/slow is never on you and any confusions stacks that follow will get stripped away.

it also effective against power classes that use conditions to leverage their main attacks. As example a thief that likes to load weakness on you to setup his next attacks or a class that loads up vuln stacks so that his regular attacks hit harder. The 75 percent threshold makes a big difference here as you do have time to get that attack off and clear osome of those conditions.

It does require some thought to use well such as “I got 25 stacks of vuln on me and 70 percent health , use withdraw attack and vuln gone” but I do not mind that.

Is this enough to warrant taking it? It might need something like on removing one of these conditions via this trait gain 1 sec resistance but it too early to tell yet.

Keep in mind that this trait is competing for the same slot as Hard to Catch, so no, it is not worth picking regardless of the conditional situations where it can excel. There are other more reliable traits and skills that I can pickup instead of this one. If this trait removes all those selective conditions plus one other unspecified condition then it might be worth considering.

Still crap since confusion can punish a Thief if it’s covered by other conditions that this trait removes.

If confusion is covered by both weakness and vuln, the Thief will take damage from confusion for the first 2 attacks, which can bring the Thief well below 75%, thus the 3rd attack that should remove confusion will not trigger and the Thief will take another damage.

Kicker.8203:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DA is offensive trait line while Acro is defensive trait line, that’s comparing a stiletto to a toothpick.

Well it’s like comparing a rotten carrot to the finest pineapple.

Acro does its job the worst while da is great.
But they are both plants because they both have offense and defense.

If you say so.

PvP – Unhindered – anti-immob and dmg mitigation
PvE – Bound – AoE damage and damage boost

If you’re bold enough you can use Bound in PvP but that’s too risky. The anti-immob and damage mitigation from Dash is irreplaceable. Dash is good in PvE only if you’re going to go around exploring and skipping all the mobs.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Still running the normal lines da/dd/tri. But that’s for pvp/wvw. I guess your build can work for pve though as I can not see why anyone would give up slight of hand and probably bountiful theft.

Trick is a given if you also take DA, otherwise it’s a dead trait line for a non-DA build. Stealing is less important in my build, thus Trickery is not a good fit, however, it’s not without a dilemma.

I’m currently want to swap out Channeled Vigor for Withdraw and I would like to have Trickster. My choices are to trade DD for Trick or make DD defensive and trade Acro for Trick. It’s not an easy choice and I’m still undecided whether to take Trick or not.

Taking Trick would mean trading CS for DA, so yeah, total build makeover.

Azure Prower.8701:

For what situations to use Staff or D/P in PVE.

Staff all around in PvE. This is not even a question.

Link.1049:

Acrobatics is completely worthless on a thief. The entire trait line. They seemed to focus on it this patch…but it just fundamentally doesn’t work on a thief.

I completely disagree. My current build is CS/Acro/DD where both CS and DD are traited for offensive and Acro as my defensive trait line. The only way that Acro would be worthless is if you use DD as defensive — which would be your own fault and not Acro’s.

I pick both since I can spec DD as offensive and leave Acro for defense. I don’t take Trick only because it does nothing for my build, instead I take CS. This way, my build is not affected when a new Elite spec rolls in. In other words, DD > Trick.

Jana.6831:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jana.6831:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Trickery is already a staple so the evade uptime and burst damage is already here. By making Preparedness baseline, it can open up a wide range of builds. Increasing AA damage doesn’t change anything in terms of diversity, thus doing it the wrong way.

It wouldn’t help my D/D thief tbh.

Of course it will since you’ll have more initiatives at your disposal, however the goal is to encourage diversity.

As long as I can’t land a CnD because the enemy is faster, evades, has passive and active blocks it won’t help me one bit.

In that case, that’s a whole different issue. It would be nice if CnD has a built in shadowstep.

Zodryn.4216:

Also might do a Viper Zerk rune test if anyone is interested.

That would be interesting although it’s obvious that Dagger will win this.

Doggie.3184:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Doggie.3184:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Doggie.3184:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Doggie.3184:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Doggie.3184:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Please no, for Dwayna’s sake no.

I don’t want my 2nd DB interrupting my 1st DB instead of performing 2 DBs in a row.

Teef helicopter flight inc?

It’s a blender, not a kitteng helicopter.

Blenders don’t fly.

Thief is not flying while using DB.

Not yet.

Then it’s not yet a helicopter — it’s currently a blender. Sheesh.

The point is if it’s not queued and can be used while in use then you’d take flight into the sky till you ran out of ini.

Dagger Storm is closer to go airborne than DB.

Nothing to do with skill queuing. -.- I’m leaving naow.

Dagger Storm is comparable to Wings to allow interruption of skills rather than queueing.

Jana.6831:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Trickery is already a staple so the evade uptime and burst damage is already here. By making Preparedness baseline, it can open up a wide range of builds. Increasing AA damage doesn’t change anything in terms of diversity, thus doing it the wrong way.

It wouldn’t help my D/D thief tbh.

Of course it will since you’ll have more initiatives at your disposal, however the goal is to encourage diversity.

Doggie.3184:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Doggie.3184:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Doggie.3184:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Doggie.3184:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Please no, for Dwayna’s sake no.

I don’t want my 2nd DB interrupting my 1st DB instead of performing 2 DBs in a row.

Teef helicopter flight inc?

It’s a blender, not a kitteng helicopter.

Blenders don’t fly.

Thief is not flying while using DB.

Not yet.

Then it’s not yet a helicopter — it’s currently a blender. Sheesh.

The point is if it’s not queued and can be used while in use then you’d take flight into the sky till you ran out of ini.

Dagger Storm is closer to go airborne than DB.

Doggie.3184:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Doggie.3184:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Doggie.3184:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Please no, for Dwayna’s sake no.

I don’t want my 2nd DB interrupting my 1st DB instead of performing 2 DBs in a row.

Teef helicopter flight inc?

It’s a blender, not a kitteng helicopter.

Blenders don’t fly.

Thief is not flying while using DB.

Not yet.

Then it’s not yet a helicopter — it’s currently a blender. Sheesh.

Asumir.1978:

What’s a Thief if they don’t have basic burglary skills, right?

Would be great if we had climbing skills and gear:
Grappling hooks, swinging by the ropes, and all sorts of rope climbing up/down tricks.

And the pretty shuriken and daggers in some of our outfits could use a little fresh air.
While flying at our targets.

I think you’re playing the wrong game.

Not to mention that Marauder and Pack Runes are not good for S/x since it’s all about raw power. Berserker and Scholar Runes makes more sense for S/x.

Will it be possible to see a test where the specs are built around the weapon of choice for optimal result rather than testing each weapon using the same specs?

I think this way we can have a comprehensive result.

For example;
Maurader+Pack
Sword = Xdps
Dagger = Xdps
etc

Berserker+Scholar
Sword = Xdps
Dagger = Xdps
etc

rylark.3418:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If you’re going for sustain, Weakening Strike is the best in slot and if you’re going for burst, Havoc Mastery is the best. This comparison is not about which deals more damage, rather which trait compliments your build, thus Weakening Strike is important since it grants longer staying power for the Thief.

So since the default for me has been DA/T/DD I guess this promotes sustained fights, even though I’m full zerk and can be able to do some decent bursts, which makes Weakening Strikes the better option?

If you’re going to stick around to AA, then yes, you’ll want Weakening Strikes. However, if you’re going to get-in-burst-then-get-out, then Havoc Mastery is better.

The purpose of Weakness is to reduce the damage you’ll be receiving in exchanges, you wouldn’t have to worry about incoming damage if you’re not sticking around.

Doggie.3184:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Doggie.3184:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Please no, for Dwayna’s sake no.

I don’t want my 2nd DB interrupting my 1st DB instead of performing 2 DBs in a row.

Teef helicopter flight inc?

It’s a blender, not a kitteng helicopter.

Blenders don’t fly.

Thief is not flying while using DB.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

I believe that is pure AA chains for each weapon set

If that is the case then he’s not using all damage boost traits he claimed to have used since Bound grants an extra 10% dmg boost as well as Mug’s added DPS.

For the sake of his test, he’s actually picked all PASSIVE damage boost traits and not all damage boost traits.

If you’re going for sustain, Weakening Strike is the best in slot and if you’re going for burst, Havoc Mastery is the best. This comparison is not about which deals more damage, rather which trait compliments your build, thus Weakening Strike is important since it grants longer staying power for the Thief.

Zodryn.4216:

Test 2 – Kill DPS
All damage boosting traits, passive utilities, accuracy and force sigils
Marauder amulet, Pack runes
Dagger – 4k
Staff – 4k
Sword – 3.7k
Rev – 3.4k

Edit:

Test 3 – Sustained DPS
All damage boosting traits, passive utilities, accuracy and force sigils
Marauder amulet, Pack runes
Dagger – 4.5k
Staff – 5.2k
Sword – 4k
Rev – 3.8k

I’m curious to what skills are you using?

stof.9341:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Rather than cutting the cost of weapon skills and increasing the maximum initiative pool (like making Preparedness baseline), which frankly will increase the Thief’s DPS, they instead choose to increase the Thief’s DPS via AA. In their own world and in their own mind, the end result reached the goal of increasing the Thief’s DPS without doing it the right way.

They are trying to increase the thief DPS without increasing massively it’s evade uptime or burst damage potential when they dump their initiative on a poor target.

Trickery is already a staple so the evade uptime and burst damage is already here. By making Preparedness baseline, it can open up a wide range of builds. Increasing AA damage doesn’t change anything in terms of diversity, thus doing it the wrong way.

Jortakk.6792:

Errr, I meant interrupting the queue and aftercast, not the skill animation itself.

Wings of Resolve can interrupt animation. If a skill cannot interrupt animation, it is placed in queue instead. Aftercast is part of the skill animation, thus interrupting the queue is interrupting the animation.

Shinobi.3240:

• Why did we get a buff to melee autoattacks?

Rather than cutting the cost of weapon skills and increasing the maximum initiative pool (like making Preparedness baseline), which frankly will increase the Thief’s DPS, they instead choose to increase the Thief’s DPS via AA. In their own world and in their own mind, the end result reached the goal of increasing the Thief’s DPS without doing it the right way.

• Why is our lack of group support not adressed?

ArenaNet only see Thief as +1 and mobile profession capping and decapping nodes. Until they get their mind out of this idiotic mindset, they will not address this issue.

• Why do Impairing daggers still miss two out of three times?

ArenaNet has gotten rid of homing projectiles in some skills.

• Do you think the acrobatics traitline is worth it now?

I pick Acro for general PvE content specifically due to Expeditious dodger, Hard to Catch, and Don’t stop. In other words, none of the “rework” worth picking.

DA is offensive trait line while Acro is defensive trait line, that’s comparing a stiletto to a toothpick.

Galandil.9641:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Yes I get that, but let’s assume that I’m under the effect of Hard to Catch where I already have +100% endurance regen. Does Vigor makes it +150% regen? Does Vigor + ES makes it +175% regen?

I just tested Hard to Catch vs Svanir, it works exactly as Signet of Agility: when you suffer a Hard-CC, you get +100 endurance (not 100% end regen).

It doesn’t matter if you have Vigor or not active.

Now that’s interesting to know. Thanks.

Doggie.3184:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Please no, for Dwayna’s sake no.

I don’t want my 2nd DB interrupting my 1st DB instead of performing 2 DBs in a row.

Teef helicopter flight inc?

It’s a blender, not a kitteng helicopter.

Straegen.2938:

It doesn’t matter how the change is classified just be happy it got done even though it was slower than two Christmas seasons.

That’s like saying to be happy that your paycheck is 9 months late.

Please no, for Dwayna’s sake no.

I don’t want my 2nd DB interrupting my 1st DB instead of performing 2 DBs in a row.

Impact.2780:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

So I’m not entirely sure what you’re talking about when the patch note specifically states that Vigor and other endurance-regen effect (like Endless Stamina) can stack up to a max of 100%. So even if you trigger Hard to Catch while under Vigor, it’s still 100%.

Interpret it in context with the OP. It implies he thinks effects stack onto vigor to make it up to 100%, allowing endless stamina to enhance it by the equivalent of 50% endurance regeneration. This is false. Endless stamina cannot relatively increase the effectiveness of other endurance enhancing buffs by way of them being stacked onto vigor because they do not stack onto – i.e. enhance – vigor; only endless stamina can enhance vigor. Endless stamina does not stack with vigor or any other endurance enhancing buff. Vigor stacks with them, and endless stamina merely improves vigor.

…..

Yes I get that, but let’s assume that I’m under the effect of Hard to Catch where I already have +100% endurance regen. Does Vigor makes it +150% regen? Does Vigor + ES makes it +175% regen?

Xeyon.6419:

From the wiki for endless stamina.

“This effects vigor multiplicatively, rather than additively. This means that rather than getting double effect out of vigor, only a 25% increase in endurance recovery is seen. At this rate, vigor increases the rate of regeneration by 3.75% per second, compared to the base 2.5%. This is a difference of 1.25% endurance per second, or an extra dodge attributed to the effects of this trait every 40 seconds while under the effects of vigor. In total, vigor under the effects of this trait will generate an extra dodge every 13.33 seconds, compared to the base vigor rate of one extra dodge per 20 seconds. When combined with the base regeneration rate, this is a total of a full dodge every ~5.75seconds, compared to 6.66seconds for base vigor.”

Hope this fixes confusion. For the record; previously, thieves were the only profession able to boost their endurance regen over the 50% marker due to vigor not stacking with class based endurance regeneration sources.

Dealing with percentage is very vague because the endurance rate is 5% per second and the value of 5% differ between a Thief with (5% = 7.5 endu) and without DD (5% = 5 endu) spec, however this is not the case. The rate of endurance regen is 5 endurance per second, rather than 5% per second, regardless of the maximum endurance.

If the regen is by percentage, 8.75% of 150 endurance is 13.125 per second , which is way over the max rate of 100%.

So yeah, I’m still confused.

EDIT: typo

Maugetarr.6823:

Impact.2780:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Didn’t they say they increased it 10% in a patch but it was never increased?

Hmm. If so, they didn’t say “fixed” in this patch….

Which means we got another 10% buff, and are still missing our previous 10% buff!

Let the cries for a 10% buff continue!

Nah, during the preview stream they mentioned that it was supposed to be in there, but never made it (dunno why) and this is the original 10% that was promised.

To nip this double buff call in the bud.

Then it’s misclassified — it belongs in the Bug Fix section.

Before the June patch, they also mentioned in the stream that Withdraw will get 10% buff, but never did. So how can we believe what they say in the stream now especially when the patch note never mention that this is a bug fix?

Impact.2780:

Endless Stamina has no endurance regeneration increase to stack with anything. It is a buff to vigor, not endurance regeneration independent of vigor, therefore it cannot stack with vigor.

From wiki:
Vigor

Vigor is a boon that increases the endurance regeneration rate, allowing affected targets to dodge more frequently. Vigor does not stack with other effects which increase endurance regeneration rate (such as from certain traits and signets). The endurance regeneration rate is capped at twice the normal rate.

Endless Stamina

The effects of vigor on you are enhanced.
Effectiveness Increased: 50%

Patch note:

Vigor and other endurance-regeneration effects (such as traits) now stack up to a maximum of 100% bonus regeneration rate.

So I’m not entirely sure what you’re talking about when the patch note specifically states that Vigor and other endurance-regen effect (like Endless Stamina) can stack up to a max of 100%. So even if you trigger Hard to Catch while under Vigor, it’s still 100%.

Galandil.9641:

However, I did again the sword DPS test, this time I got 2950 (explained by variance), while with Swindler’s Equilibrium I achieved a 3200 DPS (way higher than a +5% increment in DPS).

Thanks. It’s still not worth giving up Hard to Catch.

The problem with shadowstep is that the character’kittenbox is locked at the ground level which makes it difficult to calculate the distance from point A to point B. The lazy way is to assume that the ground surface is constantly flat, thus in theory shadowstep will always work. However, the ground surface is more than just a visual effect. Unlike grass, pebbles and bumps have an actual geometry that usually interfere with shadowstep — not to mention, there are so many invisible walls. The reason for this is to prevent the Thief from shadowstepping through the world and fall forever and get stuck.

To overcome this problem, ArenaNet needs to make a decision on how much time they are willing to spend on this because the solution is time consuming. The most simple fix is based on the idea to take the location of the target’kittenbox to insure that the Thief will not travel off world, then convert the Thief’kittenbox to be either intangible so it won’t interfere with any other objects or as a projectile which travels above ground, then teleport the Thief to the target’s location. However, this will violate the shadowstep rule that a path needs to be valid . A valid path is a path the Thief can travel on foot without jumping.

A projectile doesn’t care if it is travelling between cliffs, so the projectile idea will not work. Intangibility will not work either since it will allow Thief to shadowstep through walls.

The main culprit of this problem is that when a path is already validated, it is overridden by “no through wall” restriction. It shouldn’t be this way. It should be that when a path is validated, the Thief is intangible when shadowstepping.

EDIT: typo

Galandil.9641:

Ok, I’ll add something to the math calculated DPS of all the main weapons.

I did the test using the jaxnX DPS meter on the immortal golem in the lobby.

I removed ALL damage buffing rune/sigils/traits, with Marauder amulet, and avoided (by asking people not to) any Might/Fury boons during the test. The stats are these:

Power: 2050
Crit. chance: 62.57% (Signet of Agility equipped)
Crit. dmg: 187.3%

I checked the DPS twice for each weapon, stopping when I reached 1M dmg overall. The results are:

Staff – 3100 DPS (consider the constant 13-16 Vuln stacks)
Sword – 2800 DPS
Dagger – 3400 (3-4 constant Poison stacks)

I’m baffled by my results compared to the math done before in the thread, since from that apparently Staff should have a lot higher DPS than Dagger AA. Must be cause of the aftercasts in game opposed to theoretical ones.

However, as far as AA goes, Dagger wins by a huge margin.

Which traits did you take? Did you take Swindler’s Equilibrium (This trait now also grants 5% bonus damage to sword and spear attacks) for the sword?

Edit: posted too soon
Can you also test if this 5% buff actually makes a difference?

reikken.4961:

vigor unchanged
vigor + other regen buffs caps at 100%

^this unfortunately, unless they change the rule about vigor. The whole reason why they nerfed vigor by 50% back in June if because this can go over 100%.

Whatever, ArenaNet is as shortsighted as ever.