Guild Wars 2

jportell.2197:

Supreme.3164:

Zoltreez.6435:

Tao.5096:

True! Very True!
Celestial Amulet must be removed from PvP Arena.
It’s the only way to balance PvP in Gw2.
Anet must remove it asap.

il hope this is sarcasm if not well you know they could nerf a bit the classes that benefit from it too much and buff some builds and classes that barely benefit anything from it.

what this is called ? hmmmm oh yeah Balancing….

Nerf what exactly? A staff celestial uses exactly the same trait set up of a D/D, still nobody complaints about it, why?
I think it’s got to do with the d/d ele 1vs1 capabilities, basically all complaints are based on 1vs1 scenarios..unless you find me a single :" nerf staff " thread.

Staff eles uses elemental attunement, somes take elemental shielding and they can stack might just as good, so what’s the difference?..you tell me.

After all 90% of nerf threads are based on 1vs1 scenarios

So you think the nerfs need to happen specifically to the d/d weaponset. Okay here goes

• Burning speed-no longer an evade, one of their hardest hitting skills on this weaponset should be interruptable barring them having stability or something of the sort*

• Frozen Burst- No longer a blast finisher

• Cone of Cold-Reduced the amount of healing done with this skill

• Drakes Breath- Reduced the burning duration (again.)

• Elemental shielding- Increase the duration to 10s but move it up to master tier. This may affect staff eles but nowhere near as much as d/d eles*

The suggestions seem reasonable, although the removal of blast finisher from frozen burst, reduced burning on drake’s breath and reduction of healing on cone of cold, they do attack celestial spec directly but also other amulet combos.

A settler/ condi specced celestial ele ( like triple signet ele ) will be negatively affected by burning reduction and less healing on cone of cold.
A zerker/soldier/valk ele will suffer from the decrease in condi pressure and less might overall.

The overall scope here is to bring cele ele build in check while not burying, other amulet choices, even deeper than now.

-Removed blast finisher from frozen blast and less access to burning from drake’s breath:

Drake’s breath CD increased to 10s CD and stacks reduced from 4 to 3
- current burning iteration last 8s in total and eles have not condi duration buff with that build, this change would means a 6s burn every 10s

Frozen burst base dmg increased from 128 to 420, dmg coefficient increased from 0.4 to 1.0

Cone of Cold, removed the healing aspect, now applies another condi or base dmg increased from 680 to 920

-Reduced access to protection

Lightning touch angle of attack increased from 40 degree to 100 degree
-Better access to weakness to reduce inc direct dmg at mele range, a direct approach to increased ele survivability without relying on passive buffs

You want to reduce the condi pressure and healing of D/D, which are the strong point of this build against a typical shatter Mesmer build, this build in question has ample ways to mitigate direct damage, your proposed changes will make a celestial ele far less threatening for a shatter Mesmer, my changes will make so that at equal skill level, a D/D using other amulets will remains an overall threat to you, it won’t become instead a free kill

Zoltreez.6435:

Tao.5096:

True! Very True!
Celestial Amulet must be removed from PvP Arena.
It’s the only way to balance PvP in Gw2.
Anet must remove it asap.

il hope this is sarcasm if not well you know they could nerf a bit the classes that benefit from it too much and buff some builds and classes that barely benefit anything from it.

what this is called ? hmmmm oh yeah Balancing….

Nerf what exactly? A staff celestial uses exactly the same trait set up of a D/D, still nobody complaints about it, why?
I think it’s got to do with the d/d ele 1vs1 capabilities, basically all complaints are based on 1vs1 scenarios..unless you find me a single :" nerf staff " thread.

Staff eles uses elemental attunement, somes take elemental shielding and they can stack might just as good, so what’s the difference?..you tell me.

After all 90% of nerf threads are based on 1vs1 scenarios

Iris Ng.9845:

The way it is, probably some traits would get nerfed. Skills already are. But that would be it. The current game play has already slowly shifted to Zerker. I wouldn’t be surprised when zerker becomes the next meta.

As I have stated above, a staff build uses the same trait set up of a d/d ele ( a single trait is different..maximum 2), but there are no complaints about staff why is it? Ask yourself this. What most people want to remove is the ability of ele to 1vs1 reliably and in a fair way, at most they will “propose” a fresh air build which we both know is by far inferior to all current zerker meta at equal skill level so there you go

xDudisx.5914:

The amulet is fine. It is not even viable for most classes. The problem is clearly engi + d/d ele. War is close to be balanced since it took the biggest punch from the might nerf+ addrenaline nerf. \

Would you rather see a nerf to the op builds or nerf the amulet so no other class other than ele/engi/war can use it?

D/D is the only build atm that can 1vs1 reliably against any build while maintaining a supportive role, a staff ele meta uses the same trait set up of a D/D ..still there are no complaints about staff build, chances are what really irks people is the fact they lose 1vs1 to an ele and they want that changed, a simplistic view but I believe it to be mostly true

xDudisx.5914:

Simon.3794:

Elemental Attunement, please

5 seconds of Aoe protection in 10 seconds cooldown is already ridic, when combined with 2 ele, it’s even more ridic..

Elemental attunement is a master trait. Out of 4 boons only 2 are really good: protection and regen. Regen is good mostly because sinergizes with other traits. The other 2 swiftness and 1stack of might are weak. The self protection should stay the same. Protection is here for a reason eles have low hp and light armor.

I would say that elemental shielding, a minor trait, giving 3s base protection is the real problematic one. Maybe they could change from 3s protection to 2s swiftness+2s protection. Or any other boon like retal. Look at how Zephy’s boons works. Has 2 boons on a higher base duration (5s) and is not as op as Elemental shielding.

While elemental attunement can work with any ele weapon elemental shielding works better in main hand dagger users. This happens because with you have a main hand dagger you have 2 auras. Staff or scepter will have only 1. Nerfing elemental attunement will hurt almost all ele builds. Nerf elemental shielding will be a bigger nerf for d/d than anything else.

For once I agree with you

Ok guys, it’s time to make your choice, it does not matter if you’re a PvPer, a WvWer or PvEr, if you like to play this profession, then do please find the time to answer this simple Poll.

The profession is on the brink of being nerfed the ground again, maybe I’m being overly passionate, paranoid if you want, but if you like me, you played the profession after April 2013 patch, I’m sure that you don’t want to go back to that same dark place.

The situation now is quite dire , the April 2014 patch introduced a revamped celestial amulet, it allows teams to stack eles and become a force to be reckoned with.

The innate boon application of the ele, allows a player to overcome all the deficiencies of the amulet, the player now is good in direct dmg, condi dmg and support/bunkering while having above average HP levels; now stacking eles that can cover all areas of teamplay becomes possible.

If you think about it, there was no Abjured before April 2014.

Other amulets can keep the ele in competition while not making the stacking of this profession, so beneficial as with celestial amulet, so the question i :

Would you rather see the profession nerfed around a single amulet, so that nothing ele but celestial ele work..or would you rather nerf/tweak celestial amulet so that stacking eles won’t be so beneficial anymore?

Let the Devs what you think

http://www.poll-maker.com/poll252918x96204193-10

Cheers!

Bran.7425:

If it wasn’t be too much work (and require more balancing patches to ensure functionality) then I would suggest variation of the stat allotments so that the stat sets would be balanced around the profession in questioned.

There was no talk at all about eles and not so much about engy before the april patch 2014, meaning that problems started to arise with the revamp of the celestial amulet, that magnify ele/engi abilities.

But as it is now, no amount of stats change would stop the vocal minority from asking for harsh nerfs on the professions, especially ele.

The celestial amulet is what makes ele/engi team stacking possible , if you’d nerf of even remove the amulet in question, most eles ( those who would remain ) will move to other amulet, for example: valk, zerker, cleric, settler or even soldier.

What would happen then is that having a double valk or double cleric ele in your team would be counter-productive, a valk ele would lack the condi pressure and HP of a celestial ele, making him far more susceptible to heavy burst.

There was no Abjure before April 2014 patch, a coincidence? I think not.
The amulet did not improve the build diversity that much, of all the current meta builds, only D/D ele requires celestial at 100%, what I mean is that other profession have meta builds that don’t need celestial at all ( rabid engy, soldier/settler warrior).

The removal/tweaking of the amulet would not “destroy” the competitive scene of GW2, simply it would stop teams from stacking eles I believe, as over 70% of GW2 population is made up of PvErs and WvW players, the devs should not go and harshly nerf an entire profession because of a single amulet that make it apparently OP in PvP, which is a small portion of the game.

All in all @Bran , your suggestion is one of the most logical ones seen so far and Anet should have listened to these suggestions even before the might nerf, after all as I have stated already, the majority of the eles don’t care a bit about e-sport, they only care about playing their profession in a fun and not frustrating way

I can see how this elite may become finally useful with the upcoming stability change, use it on a point as a stability removal, point clearer etc etc.
Or am I seeng this wrong? Really hope not

Lifestealer.4910:

You know whats even more cancerous than turret engi?.. the turret engi players telling the top players who go to tournaments and win games to l2p LOL. Alot of top players want the build gutted but hey keep thinking you are more skilled then them with an auto pilot build.

TOP Players think that you’re( as part of average/mediocre league) are not GOOD enough to beat, outsmart a turret engi and in this they’re 100% correct.
One of the main reasons why Abjured win is rotations, a concept that the majority of solo/PUGS ignore, therefore turret engy dominates at average levels.

Furthermore the skill level of player beyond the ele get never conveniently taken into consideration, the protection uptime means nothing if you are a bad player to start with and you will get burst down easily by pretty much anything

Jarvis.9540

I have been playing with the meta build off and on for a couple of months now. I understand the rotations, the need to break rotations, interrupts, cleansing w/ cantrips/water attunement, how to stack might, etc. – but I cannot kill anything. All the studying in the world isn’t helping because of how long it takes for me to get set up. These are usually the scenarios that happen to me when I’m in a 1v1 encounter:

- It’s a burst class, and I’m killed before I can get through any part of my rotation. Can’t get might stacks, can’t do damage, and breaking my rotation to play dynamically just causes even more problem. This is especially true vs lb ranger & s/d thief.

- It’s a bunker build, and I can’t damage him. I get might stacks up, position correctly, but nothing does enough damage to burn him down.

It seems the only place I’m able to have any success is in a 2v2 situation because I cause so much chaos. However, I usually get cc’d in that scenario (even after I cleanse out of it) and beaten down. All the wins I’ve seen in videos make sense until I try those strategies myself and fall on my face. I’m really frustrated. I keep hearing how powerful this build is, andI like the jack of all trades aspect of this class so much, but I feel like I shine in no situation. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!

PS – Here is the build I’ve been using: http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_Dagger/Dagger

So yes, you don’t play D/D and magically start to wins fights with zero effort, the majority(over 80%) of eles in GW2 did put effort in learning not only their profession but also all other ones. From @Swim to @Blackbeard, they’ve been around an awful lot on ele, if you’re a new/bad player player who jump on ele after reading all the stories found on the forum…well not even 200% protection uptime will save them from being bursted down in seconds.

Players like @Phantaram don’t win because of this protection uptime, sure it helps, but he doesn’t win ’cause of it, he wins ’cause he knows where the dodge button is among other things like : rotation, prediction, positioning etc etc

Jon Peters
Game Design Lead

I think the big question here is the base health/armor of the elementalist. Of course if you are just an elementalist you just want us to raise these, but balance must work around some fixed things and profession health and armor are an important part of defining what a profession is so that we can create powerful tools that players can actively use to circumvent these weaknesses

Dec 2013 Ele Sub Forum

As you can see the high protection uptime was given to eles as compensation for having the lowest armor/health in the game. The ele community already asked to change this the other way around ( more health at the very least and far less protection uptime), but the devs categorically refuse to change anything about ele base design as you can clearly see from the quote above

Chaith.8256:

Supreme.3164:

The devs have proved that they can’t balance the ele at this point, it’s either cold or it’s hot..so just delete it and everybody happy.

You’re right, but really it’s simply D/D Ele that you’re describing.

I think that Arenanet can get it right eventually, the last time they just annihilated Cleansing Water foolishly, breaking the build sending it into garbage tier.

The expansion this year will turn every concept of balance we have on its head, so we will perhaps even see an alternative to D/D Cele in PvP.

I really hope so, at the very least I know that I’ll make a revenant as my 3rd main, furthermore I believe that stronghold will change the rules of team composition so we will see some interesting things in the future

Saiyan.1704:

Supreme.3164:

only there is no team cleanse on soothing disruption as the trait is for personal use only…..do we play the same class?

Nope! Made and played Ele once, just to understand their traits and playing style. I’m bound to make mistakes.. so thanks for the correction :p

Supreme.3164:

The devs have proved that they can’t balance the ele at this point, it’s either cold or it’s hot..so just delete it and everybody happy.

I personally don’t want to nerf Ele’s, just their team composition. In other words, I think their a balanced classs until you place them with a self sustaining comp like Engi, Warrior, and another Ele. They do everything so well, it’s hard to replace them.

I understamd this game is purposely imbalanced, it promotes creative rotational play, interesting team compositions, to beat said comp. The issue I have is, 1) There’s hardly any creative play, or team comp, to face this team . 2) I’m a strong believer in that win percentage makes the best team, not Team A counters Team B, so Team A is best in game.

Even if there was a counter comp for The Abjured, you need to be good enough to beat every other non Celestial team composition class. You may have a 90%+ win rate vs Abjured and a 60% win rate vs everyone else. While the Abjured has a 90%+ win rate across the board… against every single comp they come across.

Celestial Comps are destined to make the best Conquest Teams. That’s what i’m not ok with.

I apologise then for my irking comment, the majority of times people tend to comment on certain aspect of the game without really knowing then.
For the rest I fully agree with you, I hope that in the future ele will be nerfed to a level where having more than one will damage your team, but it will be still considered a serious threat as profession, as every class should be

The Gates Assassin.9827:

When it comes to agreement, engineer has a few skills that everyone pretty much unanimously thinks is OP (Overcharged Shot, Slick Shoes, Gear Block). Even warrior, players can mostly agree that war banner is a very strong skill.

1. What skills can both sides of this argument agree on are too strong and COULD be shaved for elementalist? I highly doubt a massive nerf to celestial elementalists is going to happen, so what can we agree is OP or lacks counterplay for elementalist?

Is there really need for this question?
You can see for yourself how biased and blinded are some people, if I’d be you I would not expect realistic answers.

Nerfs will happen at this point, I know they will, but I find solace in knowing that the Anet of nowadays doesn’t nerf anymore a profession to a level where a player who has reached a certain level would lose to a player of inferior skills.

Basically as long as the better player wins, I will be fine with every incoming changes.

Regardless of all this, I think you did great as forum specialist, you did try to reason with people invoking the laws of common sense, but as you can see, blinded people will never answer to common sense

Why should Cele Ele as a package be simply better

Why should an entire profession be balanced around a single amulet?
The celestial amulet simply magnify the design concept of the ele, which is jack of all trades and master of none, a concept which very unfortunately made it in GW2 and got pinned down on ele for some unknown reason despite the fierce opposition of the GW1 old ele population, that wanted eles to remain master of a single element at any given time.

If you nerf the entire profession because of celestial amulet, what will happen to that small minority of players who don’t give a kitten about your esport and want to play the profession the way they want?

If you want dedicated roles then nerf the amulet that allows ele to increase dramatically their ability to supplement any role, don’t take away the possibility of the ele to use any other amulet, that would be absurd.

You nerf condi dmg, sustain and dmg on ele because of cele amulet..then give me a single reason after that to go:
- zerker ele
- cleric ele
- settler ele

You know what @Chaith, you’re right! The concept of jack of all trades has never truly worked. At this point I would like the ask the devs a favour delete the GW2 ele and bring back the GW1 ele with its single element mechanic

The devs have proved that they can’t balance the ele at this point, it’s either cold or it’s hot..so just delete it and everybody happy.

only there is no team cleanse on soothing disruption as the trait is for personal use only…..do we play the same class?
The team cleanse comes from elemental attunement( which grants aoe regen) and it’s a single condi….
And there is staff also that use elemental attunement, the 240 radius is necessary for staff ele but guess people tends to become forgetful in their crusade for revenge on d/d

jportell.2197:

-snip

They can’t fix what is not broken, and that would be most players attitude.
In all these talks of celestial OP and nerf requests, I never see mentioned the possible skill level of the player behind the ele. Automatically assume that every player behind an ele is simply a terribad noob carried by an amulet..will be your downfall and it will bring you back on the forum..to complain about some other aspect of the ele

Arken.3725:

jportell.2197:

Novuake.2691:

xDudisx.5914:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I find that Elementalist is actually in a decent spot now that Drake’s Breath is a bit weaker and lightning whip is a bit cleaner. I also find that overall Engineer, while a bit OP, is pretty close to where it should be.

1. For Ele, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
2. For Engineer, What specific skills do you feel are OP?

1) Burning speed: it is an evade, fire field, does high dmg and burns. Has a low cd.
2) Ring of fire: the cooldown is too low
3) Shocking aura: too low cd for a cc that is so easy to land. Maybe change from stun to daze or increase the cd to 30-35
4) Magnetic grasp: any reason for this to be unblockable?
5)Fire grab: reduce the dmg when enemy is burning and increase the normal base dmg. Could also reduce the cooldown but reduce the dmg.
6) Lightning whip dmg could be reduced a little bit.

Odd how all of these are just D/D related and Scepter is actually a lot worse… Anyway…

Scepter is bad because most of it is instant (lookin at you fresh air), however scepter puts out that damage at the risk of little to no sustain. High risk, High Reward. D/d ele is little risk amazingly high reward.

Trying to fight the good fight is admirable, some just won’t listen. I’ll list some changes I think should help.

Ele:

Drake’s breath: Reduce to 1 second per tick. This skill has an absurdly low cd attached to it on top of too much burning. No other profession can apply as much burning in an aoe(or single-target).

Elemental attunement: Reduce the boon duration from 5 to 3 seconds. Even if Elementalist’s spec fully into boon duration, it’ll be about 50% which is still quite a bit.

Frozen aura: Reduce duration from 7 to 5 seconds.

Cleansing water: Put back the 5 second ICD.

Elemental Shielding: Reduce duration from 3 to 2 seconds.

Renewing Stamina: Increase ICD to 10 seconds.

Just some suggestions. Obviously the Ele/Engie community won’t like these but I think some of these would certainly help bringing them in line.

Basically your aim is to reduce the passive defense/offense ratio of the ele regardless of the amulet used, fair enough.

Can’t say your suggestions are misguided, they serve a purpose that I can see clearly even though I was asking for a representation of in combat situation but nvm.

As I have stated, your changes would reduce the ele ability to passively sustain himself during a fight and passively rely on a condi to do dmg for him, less passive gameplay and more active gameplay, excellent, if this is the way you think you should have no problem with the following suggestions aimed at maintaining the offensive potential of the ele who has now lost the ability to remain in a fight for very long.

-You like active condi clear then…
Cleansing Wave Dagger OH skill 5
Now removes two conditions from one condition, the CD is 40s, so no problem here

-You like active combat then…
Fire Grab Dagger OH skill5
Added a wind up animation of 1/2s, cone attack pattern increased from 45 degree to 160 degree

Churning Earth Dagger OH skill 5
Two options:
-remove the rooting aspect, the 3s channelling gives way more than the necessary counterplay, stun/block/daze the ele or pay huge consequences
-Increase the cripple effect to 2s so that it’s not that easy to walk out of a channelling ele

Ride the lightning and Earthquake Dagger OH skill 4-5
Increase base dmg by 100%- from 340 base to 680 base dmg ( 1.2 dmg coefficient ) , the skills have respectively 40 and kitten CD so increasing the dmg should be no problem at all, ride the lightning has the most obvious animation in the game…no need for further justifications really.

The aim of these suggestions is to keep D/D ele on the ball without rely on passive gameplay, the less passive gameplay the more active gameplay is required

Novuake.2691:

jportell.2197:

Scepter is bad because most of it is instant (lookin at you fresh air), however scepter puts out that damage at the risk of little to no sustain. High risk, High Reward. D/d ele is little risk amazingly high reward.

No counter play means its broken. At least D/D allows you to fight the ele, instead of getting blasted to oblivion.

The ele community would be more than happy to remove the insta dmg in favour of abilities on scepter able to deal with stealthed enemies like PB attacks as the main reason why scepter is not viable is because of stealth ( which takes away the “High” away from Risk when facing other zerk builds)

The problem is not the sustain as every good ele or player who knows how ele works would say ( lack of sustain on scepter is something an unexperienced players would say), there is a lack of good sustain dmg ( for which again you can reduce burst capabilities if you like) and no way to deal with stealthed enemies like on dagger.

Arken.3725:

jportell.2197:

Novuake.2691:

xDudisx.5914:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I find that Elementalist is actually in a decent spot now that Drake’s Breath is a bit weaker and lightning whip is a bit cleaner. I also find that overall Engineer, while a bit OP, is pretty close to where it should be.

1. For Ele, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
2. For Engineer, What specific skills do you feel are OP?

1) Burning speed: it is an evade, fire field, does high dmg and burns. Has a low cd.
2) Ring of fire: the cooldown is too low
3) Shocking aura: too low cd for a cc that is so easy to land. Maybe change from stun to daze or increase the cd to 30-35
4) Magnetic grasp: any reason for this to be unblockable?
5)Fire grab: reduce the dmg when enemy is burning and increase the normal base dmg. Could also reduce the cooldown but reduce the dmg.
6) Lightning whip dmg could be reduced a little bit.

Odd how all of these are just D/D related and Scepter is actually a lot worse… Anyway…

Scepter is bad because most of it is instant (lookin at you fresh air), however scepter puts out that damage at the risk of little to no sustain. High risk, High Reward. D/d ele is little risk amazingly high reward.

Trying to fight the good fight is admirable, some just won’t listen. I’ll list some changes I think should help.

Ele:

Drake’s breath: Reduce to 1 second per tick. This skill has an absurdly low cd attached to it on top of too much burning. No other profession can apply as much burning in an aoe(or single-target).

Elemental attunement: Reduce the boon duration from 5 to 3 seconds. Even if Elementalist’s spec fully into boon duration, it’ll be about 50% which is still quite a bit.

Frozen aura: Reduce duration from 7 to 5 seconds.

Cleansing water: Put back the 5 second ICD.

Elemental Shielding: Reduce duration from 3 to 2 seconds.

Renewing Stamina: Increase ICD to 10 seconds.

What is your aim with these proposed changes? What ele would be if your suggestions would be taken into consideration?

Pls do not answer with something like :" it would make them weaker", show us and the devs that you know what you’re talking about
Describe multiple situations and how the changes would affect an ele respect to the current status and abilities showed at high levels, describe how each profession would benefit from these changes on ele; can you do that or “it makes them weaker” will be your best answer?

Lopez.7369:

Sigil of Doom would be viable no matter the meta. It’s just an absurd sigil. It gives various classes an enormously powerful condition that they’re not supposed to have in the first place. It’s no surprise that throws off balance.

Honestly, somebody would have to fundamentally misunderstand how strong poison is to not get that.

With the same reasoning, necro and Mesmer should have not access to energy sigil as they have no natural access to vigor, then air+fire sigil use mechanics coming from ele, so they should be removed too…

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Supreme.3164:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I’ve been discussing this build with a few people and wanted to know if people thought this was enough:

1. Ring of Earth – Animation to show that the projectile blocking is in effect.
2. Updraft – 1/2s cast time so you can’t Lightning Flash into Updraft to force a stun breaker.

Otherwise, this build feels pretty balanced to me now. The damage isn’t scary. It’s pretty good pressure, but it’s something I think you earn. The support is strong, but that’s kind of the ele niche in this build. They invested heavily into water so they got a lot of support from it.

Those changes would be more than enough at high levels, which you know it’s clearly not the case on the forums.

A good player facing an ele that use LF and updraft in combo, knows that the ele has just used two high CD skills and the combo can be easily negated:

-You can blind the ele attempting burning speed
-You can block, waiting ofc to be updrafted and negate the upcoming burning speed

Many way to negate the combo without using a single stun breaker, all in all those suggestions are not clearly enough for the type of audience you get on the forums

Standard engineer builds don’t have a good way of doing this without stun breaking. Same with warrior. Thief would have to blow steal.

I believe the use of a 40s utility followed by another 40s CD skill should be enough to guarantee the use of a stunbreaker when everything else fail. While I’m not again the addition of a wind up animation, the combo itself doesn’t come at small price and can be negated quite efficiently.

For example a warrior or ranger can use fear ( shout from warrior and dog from rangers) and engi can potentially blow a turret for the aoe knockback

jportell.2197:

Swim.6830:

Arken.3725:

Except the two I mentioned can do a variety of things exceptionally well. Mesmers are nowhere near the level of absurdity as the two mentioned. When you have access to ALL of that, it’s an issue. Elementalist’s were not nerfed into the ground since beta, in fact they were the kings of spvp at launch so I don’t know where you’re getting your facts from.

Edit: And if you believe all professions have to compromise something, you’re delusional.

Well I played Ele since Beta and I get my facts from all the patch notes for all the nerfs since then (the first one was to damage, then cantrips change, the more recent ones were to mobility/range and cooldown timers etc).

And yes all classes have an Achilles heel.

Really and what is an ele’s achilles heel? Please do tell. Wanna talk about nerfed into the ground… How about dat double whammy blurred frenzy nerf, OR even better the gauranteed removal of any confusion mesmers in pvp.

How about 50% nerf on healing on healing ripple and cleansing water? Guess you don’t even know that, pls check GW2 2012 balance updates
How about removal of dmg from sceptre water 2 and earth 2/3? again check 2012 updates; that’s when scepter was nerfed into the ground and never recovered

Then there is the removal of stunbreakers from cleansing fire and Lightning flash, reduction of regen/vigor on soothing disruption, adept traits moved to master, dmg reduction on 2 elites out of 3

1) Your proposed change would still make no significant difference, it’s a matter of keeping constant pressure not trying to burs down a target, pressure is what D/D is good at

2) Warrior has longbow; Thief has short-bow and pistol; Mesmer has Greatsword and staff; Necro has scepter and staff; Guardian has scepter and sword; Ranger has shortbow, torch, axe and Longbow and Engi has rifle/pistol..which profession has not access to viable ranged option…lol it’s just ele yeah [ talking from a meta point of view]

3)Problem is d/d is not god mode, it’s just a personal opinion.Sure the spec is effective hence is meta, but god mode? really no..if anything is the player that can make it god like, bring me a mediocre d/d ele and you’ll kiss the ground in no time, my 2 cents

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I’ve been discussing this build with a few people and wanted to know if people thought this was enough:

1. Ring of Earth – Animation to show that the projectile blocking is in effect.
2. Updraft – 1/2s cast time so you can’t Lightning Flash into Updraft to force a stun breaker.

Otherwise, this build feels pretty balanced to me now. The damage isn’t scary. It’s pretty good pressure, but it’s something I think you earn. The support is strong, but that’s kind of the ele niche in this build. They invested heavily into water so they got a lot of support from it.

Those changes would be more than enough at high levels, which you know it’s clearly not the case on the forums.

A good player facing an ele that use LF and updraft in combo, knows that the ele has just used two high CD skills and the combo can be easily negated:

-You can blind the ele attempting burning speed
-You can block, waiting ofc to be updrafted and negate the upcoming burning speed

Many way to negate the combo without using a single stun breaker, all in all those suggestions are not clearly enough for the type of audience you get on the forums

Skills with ample counterplay need no nerfs, I can play any profession you want and will dodge burning speed no problem any time you want( ofc don’t expect me to dodge a burning speed if I’m against 3-4 people or get perma immobilized by a med guardian+ entangle ranger)

Lower the base dmg of LW and make it scale with power? what difference would it make?A celestial ele not only has high base power but also crit chance and crit dmg, other amulets would increase that base power even more, with your suggestion a soldier/zerker/valk ele will end up doing even more dmg on LW

Being able to outrange an ele while he uses shocking aura or similar skills is arguably not difficult at all, being a ranger 2nd main with survival poison master shortbow and being a1st main ele, I find rather easy to predict both if faced as opponents, got a warrior also with which I can win against cele eles as well, and recently started a necro, will use wells builds with time.

Regardless do you really expect the devs to nerf dmg on auto-attacks and main skills( and increase their CD also)?How an ele should win at all? By staring at you?
Sorry to disappoint you….but that will never happen, no matter how many nerf threads you write

Roe.3679:

I see all the time that people will say X spec/class takes no skill – I think I’ve seen this said about every single build. So what do you define as a class that does take skill?

“The build you win with…..takes no skill, the build I play always takes skills”
-MMO Bible Chapter 1

1) Considering the build you say? Alltraits are into defensive traitlines, celestial is a hibrid not supposed to hit that hard. Axe is the best dps autoatk for warrior. Almost every autoatk has a lower dps than that. Also the range for axe is 130 and LW is 300.

2) It is a firefield on a very low cd and lasts 6s. Scape skill on very high cooldown? Lightning flash 32, armor of earth 60s, cleansing fire 32s.

3)4s on a 25s cd is equal to 16% of the time that you wont be able to atk. That in the class with the highest protection uptime, perma regen and one of the top healing per second in the game is too much. Stab normally has higher cooldown and only prevent cc not dmg. Reflect only works against projectiles. The aura works against anyone that is not using stab.

6) thief autoatck is one of the strongest in the game but dagger only hits up to 2 targets and is 130 range. LW is 300 range. Warrior axe is also 130 range and is a chain skill. You want to compare LW with a zerker thief and mesmer and say it is ok? No mesmer and thief are doing more dmg because they are zerker not because LW is weak.

1) So now you want to nerf the amulet, you want to nerf dmg on d/d….or simply you want to nerf everything( which is what I believe); the skills by you mentioned deal the highest dmg on d/d regardless of the amulet. I could go soldier or valkrye and you would still be here asking for nerfs on d/d…in all truth you want to nerf any threatening aspect of the D/D spec

2) Ele for starter had always had the best fire fields in the game, others have fire fields too ( ranger, warrior, guardian); and it’s your choice to walk into them, same argument can be made for any aoe ground attack you walk into, like: wells, chaos field, combustive shot and….yeah even turret engy deployement

-Lightning flash is 40s CD, earth of armor is 75s CD and Cleansing fire is 40s Cd, out of all of them only armor of earth is a stunbreaker, no ele takes cantrip mastery I believe as that would reduce your condi clear potential. Mesmer have blink on 30s/stunbreaker for example, thieves have shortbow and there is more.

3) Shocking aura is 1s stun every 2s on mele attacker, again your choice to attack at mele range, all profession save engy ( who has range by default) can switch to range attack and maintain pressure, nobody force to keep a mele offensive. To say shocking aura works against everything is a wicked lie

6) Already said this in point 1, what you’re really asking for is to remove any threat potential from ele and this only for personal reasons it seems

It’s not that I’m having a problem with nerfing celestial amulet, some sustain or skill. I’m having problems with removing entirely the capability of ele to be effective in PvP at all. There is no viable ranged option both for warriors and eles, there is only a mele option and with this in mind it’s obviously necessary for such builds to have higher sustain compared to say : a Mesmer or ranger that can burst reliable from 1200+ range

I mean it’s clear that mele needs higher sustain, otherwise how else they’d fight?
Now how much sustain is necessary, this is up to discussion

How much effective is celestial d/d ele really depends at this point, it seems to be too “high” against certain builds at mele range, what should be reduced effectively should be cele d/d to face other mele specs, but what should not change is the efficiency of this mele build against other build/professions that can be effective at huge range , and the ability to sustain through team fights, because again an ele d/d can’t simply switch to range and pew pew on mid when things go wrong

mistsim.2748:

celestial needs to be nerfed by about 50 points in each stat. tired of cele shoutbows and d/d eles. garbage no skill play. d/d eles shouldn’t be doing so much damage while facerolling through their attunements and cooldowns. good ones are impossible to fight on point. nerfing cele would open up a LOT of builds right now.

You need to kill off their sustain with poison and chill to slow them down…and ofc an eye to dodge their main skills, for tips , an ele facerolling though attunement cannot beat anything but another player facerolling through his build

May I suggest high poison uptime builds? Now there are ways to keep almost perma poison and such build can kill a cele ele/engy quite reliably…just not fast.

They have not huge burst, the killing come from the huge condi pressure followed by thief/ele direct dmg, survive the condi pressure and the direct dmg will be not enough to kill quickly.

The high poison uptime build can kill their side defender, but this depends on how fast their thief rotate towards you at which point you’d need an equally skilled thief to either stop @Toker in his tracks or finish off quickly the side defender whether is the engy or ele.

All in all you’d need a player strong enough to either kill the side defender alone or force him to call for back up , which is @Toker.

-A D/P thief
-A Duellist to kill/pressure home defender
-Bunker support
-Support roamer( can stall opponents on your close and wait for either duellist or thief to come for help)
-Support Offensive

My 2 cents on beating high sustain team comps which I meet frequently and normally face along side my good thief friend ( that comes and kill easily the home defender and their thief ^^)

Arken.3725:

Except the two I mentioned can do a variety of things exceptionally well. Mesmers are nowhere near the level of absurdity as the two mentioned. When you have access to ALL of that, it’s an issue. Elementalist’s were not nerfed into the ground since beta, in fact they were the kings of spvp at launch so I don’t know where you’re getting your facts from.

Edit: And if you believe all professions have to compromise something, you’re delusional.

Forget to say…
If everybody these days is running a tanky spec is specifically because no other zerker spec stand up to Mesmer and thief or even Med guardian, reason why you don’t see fresh air eles/power ranger , 100nades engy or axe warrior at high levels; Mesmer and thieves would simply blow you out of existence in no time seen as they can engage/disengage at will, that’s their mastery advantage

Solstice.1097:

someone can just run the same comp as them and outplay them right? no? then it’s a player skill issue not a balance issue.

Many have tried to run double ele/engy….they all got beaten into submission, Ofc it is a L2P issue..even .the devs know it

1)For a hibrid it does too much direct dmg on that skill
2) 15s is too low. Focus for example has skills with a minimun cooldown of 20s
3)Tell the enemy to stop atacking for 4s is the most stupid “counter play” I have seen in the forums. Lets go ahead and say that any skill is balance because you can always run away.
6) For a hibrid jack of all trades ele is doing way too much direct dmg on lightning whip. It also has a good range and is one of the easiest “melee” #1 skills to land on the game.

The argument that “you can dodge” is not valid. If a skill did 150k dmg applied 25 stacks of vul, gave 25stacks of might and had a 0.75s I could say the same and say it is balanced because you could dodge. Following that logic any skill that is not insta cast is balanced. Looking at the counless changes they to dozens of skills in the past we see that it is not true.

Not all the time people will have endurance to dodge everything, it is not a 1v1 all the time. Not every build has a free dodge from weapons skills like d/d. Also not every build has perma vigor like d/d ele.

1) Too much direct dmg? We should take in consideration your build, and ele stats at the time of the hit, but going by number alone, burning speed can deal as much direct dmg as a warrior axe-autottack full chain
2) Focus flame wall is aoe ground target and deal no dmg, focus is a defensive set up where d/d is a pure pressure set up with escape skills on very high CD….what argument is even that?
3)Being unable to stop attacking for 4s is one of the biggest L2P issues in the game, unless you’re telling me that it’s ok to blow all your CC on somebody that has stability up, it’s ok to blow all your condition on a warrior that uses berserker’s stance, it’s ok to range attack a an engineer that he’s reflecting….etc etc etc etc…the list goes on but the huge L2P issue remains
6)Compared to what? Currently lightning whip deal far less dmg than a thief/warrior/Mesmer auto-attack, thief and Mesmer are zerker ofc….again the numbers are completely ok, there is no argument again

Nobody can dodge everything, and it’s no the game problem if you can’t keep tab of what you’re facing and you don’t need vigor to dodge what needs to be dodged

Arken.3725:

I never stated Bunker Guardian had superb sustain, in fact it actually didn’t. It revolved heavily on your teammates rotating. It’s self-sustain was decent at best. Elementalists easily outshined them in that department and not support.

Edit: Is this a joke? Elementalist’s completely out-shine Guardians in terms ofsustain, even on a point.

Guardian has been and still is the best point holder in the game against multiple foes if you don’t agree with that, we can organize a video of you playing first as ele and then as bunker guardian vs me and my friend(very good thief), we’ll see in which instance you can hold the point longer before any help can potentially come

Guardian has a plethora of blocks skill, regen and protection on bunker build, it is a far better bunker than ele, the latter can dish some pretty good dmg while being a decent bunker( not superb like guardian), as a fact the Abjured win match by rotations not by trying to hold point, unless you want to show me a video of @Phantaram holding a point against 2+ opponents like a guardian vs decent opponents

edit:

I’d like to make my final point, I’m not against any tweak to celestial amulet or some ele skills, what I’m against is the idea of removing the very reason why somebody should be a jack of all trades over a master, there are people asking for the jack of all trades to be yes weaker in everything but also unable to beat a master in anything, at which point there would 0 reason to keep such concept in game.

The versatility and the potential to capitalize on a master weakness are what make a jack of all trades intriguing and useful to play, without those ideals, a jack of all trades would have no reason to exist

Arken.3725:

Except when you have 65% plus access to protection and arguably the best condition-removal in the game, that weak defense isn’t exactly correct. So if we’re talking about investing everything else into sustain, can you name any other profession that can do it just as well if not better when investing as much?

edit: Again to bring up a prime example would be bunker Guardian. It had decent sustain and superb support with investing as much into self-sustain as elementalists do. That was it. It had very little in the department of CC/Mobility/Burst/Condition dmg. That’s how it should be.

It’s to compensate for the innate weak defense that we have great access to protection and condi removal, to nerf this would bring into question why that weak defense even exist in the first place, Again as I’ve said you can nerf access to protection and condi removal but then I want that base weak defense removed.

It has already explained why eles have access to CC/mobility/burst and more at the same time; before celestial meta ( where without a doubt you still see bunker guardians), the guardian has been part of every meta as main bunker, because it’s clear that ele has not a superb support/sustain like a bunker guardian ( the latter gain greater sustain through heavy access to Blocks, blind and healing skill with a higher base number)

Under no circumstance an ele can bunker a point like a specifically built guardian, you don’t see even Abjured doing that, they simply rotate with perfection.

xDudisx.5914:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I find that Elementalist is actually in a decent spot now that Drake’s Breath is a bit weaker and lightning whip is a bit cleaner. I also find that overall Engineer, while a bit OP, is pretty close to where it should be.

1. For Ele, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
2. For Engineer, What specific skills do you feel are OP?

1) Burning speed: it is an evade, fire field, does high dmg and burns. Has a low cd.
2) Ring of fire: the cooldown is too low
3) Shocking aura: too low cd for a cc that is so easy to land. Maybe change from stun to daze or increase the cd to 30-35
4) Magnetic grasp: any reason for this to be unblockable?
5)Fire grab: reduce the dmg when enemy is burning and increase the normal base dmg. Could also reduce the cooldown but reduce the dmg.
6) Lightning whip dmg could be reduced a little bit.

All skills you’ve mentioned have ample counterplay and lightning whip it’s the only decent auto-attack on eles and will remain so. On some points in particular….

1) Dmg happen at the end and there is a clear animation, plenty of time to dodge.. an obvious L2P issue here, I can dodge steal, C&D, overshoot and most attacks that have far less tell
2) And by how much you would increase this CD?
3)The stun happens on attack, again a L2P issue, and daze in this game last 2s at least where stun last 1s every 2s and the aura last 4s, an increased CD would bring more daze to ele and that would be beneficial even more than current stun

Arken.3725:

I have absolutely no problem with increasing armor and/or health to compensate as well as certain skills that have too long of a cd. I’m more than happy to compensate where it’s needed.

Now we are talking!
Reduce sustain, CC whatever, nerf celestial….don’t care, but in return we get finally increased HP, reduced CD on skills and increased dmg coefficient on certain skills

Arken.3725:

Narkodx.1472:

Swim.6830:

Arken.3725:

Narkodx.1472:

LOL

That’s why these discussions are useless

Some say Celestial OP nerf the amulet
Some say Engi/Ele OP nerf traits/weapons/skills
Some say Sigils and Runes are OP nerf those

Who actually has factual evidence with numbers of what is actually OP? ANET

I have some facts right here.

Ele: These are just SOME of the examples.

-At least 65% up time on vigor/regen/protection/swiftness/might
-Access to significant amounts of CC (Frozen burst, chill aura, shocking aura, updraft, magnetic grasp, earth quake)
-Highest AoE burn up time in the game with little-to-no investment involved(drake’s breath)

Engineer: Again, just SOME of the examples

-Highest block up time of any profession
-Instant-ranged KB that also cures movement-impeding effects.
-Little-to-no visual representation when spamming grenades at feet.
-Uncounterable application of burning upon crit.
-Excellent mobility due to 100% up time of swiftness.

These are just some examples from the two apex predators on top of them being inherently tanky(due to celestial or rabid for Condition Engineer).

Edit: I hope we never focus on a meta to where every profession can utilize celestial efficiently, this leads to a very boring meta where setting up burst will be insignificant and long, drawn-out fights will reign supreme. We need to go back to the Zerker meta.

If I started listing all specific things all classes can do when specced correctly, we’d be here all day. Elementalists has been nerfed into the ground since BETA because people can’t learn to play… You might as well list mesmer there because they have too many “get out of jail” cards /s…

If classes with high base HP can get amulets that compliment perfectly their stats for a build, why should classes which are in the middle or less get the shaft for their builds?

Whether the devs intended, the facts are that every class has a weakness and you can’t just pick the golden class and build to beat them all. All builds and classes have a compromise (thieves have easier time vs some classes, warriors vs others and so on). I am not saying what you are if you disregard this fact – I am nice like that.

Arken – You have to say WHY those things are OP and argue why the devs simply did not intend elementalist/engineer to be that way

The way Elementalists specifically invest their traits it seems intended to have high boon uptime cleanses and heals – 6 in water/arcana

- Elementalist has definitely not be nerfed into the ground and your bias is showing you should relax yourself

I thought I did, guess not. Well then here’s my reasoning and it goes for ALL professions. There needs to be proper risk vs. reward. Being a bruiser or “master of all trades” doesn’t scale well with proper risk vs investment. When you only give up a tiny bit of (burst) damage for an abundance of sustain/mobility/cc with a tiny bit of support, there’s an issue.

Edit: Here’s a trivia question for everyone. This might sound biased because I main Guardian. Which spec on which profession had proper balance in terms of sustain/dps/support/cc? Here’s a hint, it had decent sustain and excellent support while everything else was sub par.

The risk is being forced in a role while having the lower base stats among all profession, no weapon swap and give up utilities to fulfil the role of jack of all trades.

But hey you say having the lowest stats and dmg coefficient is not enough of a reason and I say :" ok fair enough".

So let’s reduce/nerf ele sustain, attrition dmg and access to protection, CC….then…

-We increase ele base HP from 10K to 15/18K
-We reduce the CD from excessive skills with an unreasonable CD currently(35s CD+)
-We increase the dmg coefficient of auto-attacks on weapons like sceptre

Then you will say :" ele has still too many skills"..then

-We remove the attunenement mechanic and add weapon swap for ele
-We re-design all ele skills to take in consideration the lack of attunement

There! The game is “balanced” now no?!

BurrTheKing.8571:

Supreme.3164:

BurrTheKing.8571:

So, after some thought I have an alternative suggestion:

Don’t allow for 2 sigils of the same type to be on one weapon. This means no Air/Fire, no Energy/Doom/Geo/Hydro/etc.

You could still have the same sigils, but they would have to be on two separate sets. It would avoid those crazy damage spikes or suddenly being hit with several damaging condis at once.

Some may dislike the loss of choice, but don’t forget that at launch it seemed that sigils were designed around certain combinations not being possible.

What about professions that can use 4 sigils at time? They would not lose anything respect to ele, engy ( and soon to be Revenant)

They would lose the ability to chain certain powerful combos on the same set. No Fire/Air means that one attack can’t trigger both and deal a crap ton of damage because you had the nerve not to avoid an auto attack. You’ll also lose combos like Doom/Battle, Doom/Intelligence, or Doom/Geomancy.

This will hurt Engis and Ele, but as a Engi player I can say this change won’t suddenly make me terrible.

They may lose the combo, but they won’t lose the ability to use more than one type of sigil, a clear advantage that goes against what anet preach

BurrTheKing.8571:

So, after some thought I have an alternative suggestion:

Don’t allow for 2 sigils of the same type to be on one weapon. This means no Air/Fire, no Energy/Doom/Geo/Hydro/etc.

You could still have the same sigils, but they would have to be on two separate sets. It would avoid those crazy damage spikes or suddenly being hit with several damaging condis at once.

Some may dislike the loss of choice, but don’t forget that at launch it seemed that sigils were designed around certain combinations not being possible.

What about professions that can use 4 sigils at time? They would not lose anything respect to ele, engy ( and soon to be Revenant)

There is also : sigil of intelligence that works like *an ele utility = arcane power but the sigil is on 9s Cd.

There is also sigil of air that works like ele minor trait air 15

There is also sigil of fire that works like ele minor fire trait 15 [even though the sigl is ranged aoe while ele is nearby foes and deal considerably less dmg]

What some people are saying is to remove doom sigil because ele/war should have not access to poison..but then the same reasoning should be applied to other sigils, none of you should have sigil of intelligence and air because they’re ele exclusive skills.

Ability to crit at 100% without having huge crit chance stats?..yeah that’s ele main skill
Ability to ranged lightning strike foes on crit and swap?..yeah that’s ele again

xDudisx.5914:

Supreme.3164:

@xDudisx

Celestial was made for jack of all trades professions, it was not made for profession capable of mastering certain aspects. At this point I’d rather remove the jack of all trades concept from GW2 and allow each profession to be master of something

A long time ago they posted the goal that they try to reach for each class when balancing. They said engi and eles are intended to be jack of all trades.

IMO the only problem right now is that celestial d/d ele does too much dmg and rifle engi has too much cc+condi+block.

I think that their sustain is ok. The problem is not celestial amulet. The last update where they nerfed might stacks, sigil of battle, drake’s breath and greneade kit was good.

What needs a nerf:
sigil of doom,
sigil of inteligence,
runes of hoelbrak (-20% condi might duration source of might+ power based)
runes of nightmare
air+fire combo
d/d skills
tool kit
grenade kit

Your list is clear, what is not clear is your reasoning behind it.
You basically want to nerf ele/engy ability to fight other professions, when is in their design concept to have clear advantages over profession that can master dmg/support and control.

This advantage is their ability to exploit other profession weaknesses with ease, where other profession win easily in a direct race against ele/engy; an ele can’t burst as efficiently as a Mesmer or thief or med guardian, can’t Control like a hammer warrior
and can’t support like a guardian, what ele does is a fraction of everything and he does it well, how much well is up to discussion.

As long as you want to min/max the stats between jack of all trades and master , it’s fine, but when you want to remove the clear advantages of one over the other…then we have a problem

Based on what reasoning their skills should be toned down?
Already made a post in this thread explaining how jack of all trades and master interact to each other, under no circumstances a jack of all trades who focus on the master weaknesses should lose.
If the jack of all trades would lose to master both in direct way ( by going into the realm of the master ex: direct dmg jack vs direct dmg master) and indirect way( inability to capitalize on the master weaknesses)…there would be no point.
what so ever to have such concept in game

Actually the concept of jack of all trades would have not been born at all, if there would be no clear advantages/disadvantages of being one.

To ask to nerf jack of all trades to a level where they can’t win ever against a master…….It’s ludicrous to say the least

We think 3 classes are good at celestial because is in their design to use all stats better than other, by comparison other profession can use certain stats, way better than the 3 celestial classes, makes sense?

@xDudisx

Celestial was made for jack of all trades professions, it was not made for profession capable of mastering certain aspects. At this point I’d rather remove the jack of all trades concept from GW2 and allow each profession to be master of something

The Gates Assassin.9827

Forum Specialist – PvP

Doom is most effective against Eles/Wars/Engineers who have stacked multiple sources of sustain (traits, regen, highly effective healing abilities).

Shaving Doom […] would probably only solidify the status quo more.

But the most prominent users of Sigil of Doom are those same high sustain builds; not the alternate builds, most of which are DPS builds, or other sustain builds outside the meta.

If Sigil of Doom was so crucial to keeping celestial builds in check, wouldn’t we see it being used more by lots of players?

Just taking a look at meta builds:
1.Engineer generally takes it, or intelligence. This is regardless of build besides 100 mines and turret builds.
2.Elementalist takes it.
3.Warrior takes it.
4.Mesmer takes it (generally on staff)
5.Thief doesn’t normally take it, but they always have shortbow’s choking gas, steal and dagger auto attacks.
6.Ranger sometimes takes it, but they also have poison on condi builds.
7.Guardian doesn’t generally take it
8.Necromancer doesn’t usually take it, but they have poison.

So really everyone takes it who doesn’t have a lot of poison in their build.

15 chars

Permalink

Arrow icon

BlackBeard.2873

Sube Dai.8496:

Celestial is … the best amulet for at least 4 builds

Fixed that for you. Sure some of those builds are arguably the strongest for that class, it doesn’t mean that “You are an engie, take celes amulet.” Condi-engie is WAY better with rabid amulet. S/F ele is far superior with zerker.

The reason celes is so strong is that there is SO MUCH RANDOM DAMAGE nowadays that the sustain from celestial allows them to survive more dps-oriented builds while relying on procs to wreck them back.

Jack of all trades or Master?

From a design point of view, the Jack of all Trades possess a wider skillset compared to the Master and he’s able to sit through different situation more comfortably. At the same time the Jack of all Trades lose in an exclusive situation against a master, which I believe is already the case we see in game and this is what I mean by that.

-Direct dmg focused Jacks ( s/f ele or zerker engy) have a bad match up against Masters of direct dmg professions like Thief and Mesmer ( this is from a design point of view, let’s leave the skill level of players out of this)

-On the other hand, the Jacks are able to capitalize on the weaknesses of the direct dmg Masters, one of this weakness being : condition dmg.

Basically a direct dmg focused profession designed as Jack of all Trades lose against a profession designed with direct dmg in mind; but a jack of all trades who capitalize on the master weaknesses should be able to win

Now the celestial amulet was made for jack of all trades professions, exactly how zerker amulet was made for direct dmg professions. Of course we all know that potentially ele/engy can use zerker as a Thief/Mesmer can use celestial, what stopping them?
But would these option be optimal? A cele thief vs cele ele?….No, A zerker engy vs zerker Mesmer?….Again No

You cannot expect a jack of all trades built for direct dmg to compete in a fair way against a profession made for direct dmg by design. A team with a s/f zerker ele would be at disadvantage against a team with a D/P thief in it, because the latter can engage/disengage at will be design, capable of devastating opening with no tell

The celestial amulet simply emphasize the concept of Jack of all Trade/Master of none, it can have a little shave like 30-50 stats taken from each line, but that’s about it. The idea of removing celestial is simply ludicrous, it would not stop ele/engy from being played, but it would remove their optimal build choice; and then the same argument could be made for Zerker amulet, optimal for thief and Mesmer.

The crux of the discussion is not really celestial meta or any meta for what it matters, what people really want is to be able to play their chosen/favourite profession in any meta. This is the main reason behind this multitude of nerf threads.

The same role should be available to all professions but with different styles: Ex
- A necro playing healer thx to blood magic, a Mesmer tank spec, etc etc

Over 70% of the Pvp forum is made up of nerf threads, if the Devs would listen to even half of them….we would be fighting with water guns by now