Guild Wars 2

So, for a build I’m trying I’m going 30 into Virtues but for the Grandmaster slot I’m not sure which trait would work best…

Indomitable Courage:-

• Passive grants Aegis every 30 seconds (Instead of 40)
• Active grants 3 seconds of Stability

Shielded Mind:-

• Active is a Stun Break

So on one hand…

IC will provide better returns if not needed to use the active (Either for Protection/Stability/Stun Break) and will allow pre-popping to prevent control (Stuns/Fear/Daze/Knockdowns/Knockbacks those last 2 are important as stun breaks don’t work on them) it can also prevent Chain-CC from, for example, a Hammer Warrior.

On the other hand…

SM will allow for breaking of CC that hits, it promotes using it (Due to not boosting the passive) allowing for the Protection to be gained more often and doesn’t provide a boon that can be Corrupted by Necro’s (Turns into a Fear, which if Terror specced will do a lot of damage)

Does this come down to a “Skill based decision” where SM is better until you can reliably pre-pop the Stability before CC comes in (At least when considering CC, when doing content with little to no need to pop Virtue of Courage the passive boost from IC will be best)

Bearing in mind, I’ll be running with “Save Yourselves!” and “Stand Your Ground!” as utilities that also break stuns.

Arkham Creed.7358:

No single player, no matter how they build, can apply every condition at maximum capacity. So the solution to this is what I call “back up conditions.” In a nut shell you build your character to be able to swap at will between two different conditions, such as bleed and poison. Then when you see someone in your party using one, you just swap to the other. This way everyone is still doing their full DPS, but the condition players aren’t competing to stack the same condition.

The main issues with this are:

• Some classes can already stack multiple conditions to maximum effect (Theives can achieve 25 Bleeds + Perma-poison, Engineers can provide Perma-poison, Perma-burning and some can provide 25 Bleed stacks etc)

• Not all conditions are equal at “Maximum Effect” for example at base 25 stacks of bleed will do 1062.5 DPS, Burning will do 328 DPS, Poison will do 84 DPS and 25 stacks of Confusion will do 3250 damage per activation.

This is due to how some conditions stack duration (Burning and Poison) while others stack intensity (Bleeding and Confusion) now because of this discrepancy in damage (Combined with non-condition builds also providing conditions) having one person focused on a single condition will be less effective than if each person could use all the conditions they had available to them, which at the same time is equal or less than the effectiveness they’d achieve if they just went “Sod it, I’ll go full zerker!”

Having some way to support multiple condition builds (Through either individual stacks or additional Conditions achieved through reaching caps/combining of conditions (I.E. Poison from multiple sources becoming “Plague” which does damage equal to multiple Poison conditions from the people applying them which stacks in intensity) which could come into affect for PvE enemies (So as to not upset condition removal tools in PvP)) would help to alleviate the “Oh dear, another condi build so now we’re both less useful…” and have a distinct difference between the choice of condition builds and zerker builds (Condi builds only need 2 stats to get their maximum damage allowing them to build for more survivability vs zerker putting out more raw damage)

No Pure of Voice being utilised.

That said, after more usage I’ve noticed it converting Conditions into Boons without Pure of Voice.

Seems like it may be a bug with it getting that trait as base (Thus the 2 Boons converted when using the trait)

Even then, it still doesn’t make sense that I get Vigor when using it when knocked down (With no conditions on me)

Am I going crazy, or does using “Hold the Line” while CC’d provide (About 10 seconds) Vigor?

I’ve noticed myself getting Vigor with no interaction with anything else (No crits proccing Vigorous Precision, no usage of other Vigor gaining abilities) when using “Hold the Line” while knocked down.

Is this intended or am I getting free Vigor from a bug/another (Unknown to me) source?

Looking at the tooltip and the Wiki page there’s no reference to gaining Vigor on use when CC’d.

At 25 Corruption stacks it’d be best to swap it out for:

Agony (10% Bleed duration)
Earth (60% chance on crit to Bleed for 5 seconds)
Strength (30% chance on crit to gain Might for 10 seconds)

With your crit chance I’d say Agony would be the most beneficial.

Air/Fire could work, but the damage they deal is based off power rather than condition damage.

Omnomberry Ghosts are okay.

They won’t keep you alive on their own, but they do add some decent health and damage with a high crit build.

If procing every second it will do up to 341 DPS and HPS where the damage is unaffected by armour.

It’s not as strong as before the nerf (Where there was no internal cooldown so multi-hits could all proc them and skills could heal 10k+ per activation as well as adding that much damage) but they’re still usable.

Dasorine.1964:

No thief love for the thief rune! :P though guess very few people tend to like condition crit hybrid builds

That and condition builds don’t get much benefit from the 6 bonus due to percentage damage increases only affecting direct damage.

Professor Sensei.2941:

Something a lot of thieves will over look though is Vampirism runes. If you don’t mind toning down your dmg a bit the extra healing/dmg from the life steal and mist form on >10% is amazing if your diving with full glass gear.

Vampirism Runes are great on a Thief.

They synergise very well with the low cooldown heals such as Withdraw and Signet of Malice allowing them to become even stronger heals due to the additional 975 life siphon they cause (Which deals damage that ignores armour)

I used to run them, until I decided I wanted to get more health and crit damage from Beryl Orbs.

Bleed:

2.5 + (0.5 * Level)+ (0.05 * Condition damage)

So for 680 condition damage at level 60 = 2.5 + (0.5 * 60) + (0.05 * 680) = 66.5

While 1650 condition damage at level 80 = 2.5 + (0.5 * 80) + (0.05 * 1650) = 125

It would take 2000 Condition damage to achieve 140 damage bleeds

Which is possible with just Rabid Exotics + Runes of Undead + 25 Stacks of corruption and some food:

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/necromancer/?5.0|b.1b.h16.8.1b.9b|6.1b.9b|1b.719.1b.719.1b.719.1b.719.1b.719.1b.719|1b.9b.1b.9b.1b.9b.1b.9b.1b.9b.1b.9b|0.u000.u000.0.0|2s.d|0.0.0.0.0|e

Panhauramix.2784:

Have you noticed if your level was way lower than the jellyfish? I’ve encountered some zones where, for example, I was 17, and a wurm was 25. It was literally a raid boss against 6 of us. Just 600 yard to the east and we were back up to lvl 27 and it was a piece of cake.

If he was level 41 in a 15-25 zone (Particularly where the Jellyfish are, there’s part of a World event that takes place there so the level scaling doesn’t change around there) he’d be higher level than them.

On topic:

It’s intended that certain things are dangerous even while down leveled.

In fact, down leveling itself is only there in an effort to keep content challenging even for level 80 characters in full Exotic and Ascended gear going through 1-15 zones.

It for the most part, fails. But there are various enemies that are challenging at all levels such as Jellyfish (Need to avoid that spin or you can die 1v1 let alone multiples) various Fire Elementals and most Imps (Imps hit like a truck, can do 60% of my Level 80’s health in a single hit if I fail to dodge when down leveled)

Authority.6145:

Taril.8619:

1000 + 2155 * (1 * 1.5) * 1.05 / 1800 = 1885 Basic damage calculation for Might bonus, with no Might stacks

1000 * 2175 * (1 * 1.6) / 1800 = 1933 – Basic damage equation for 5 Scholar 1 Divinity

So if both of them use 1 might stack what would the result be?

I am trying to understand whether strength runes with 20percent duration and 5 percent damage under might is a better choice for using them when invested on might trait instead of 5 scholar 1 divinity.

So for example if I was hitting someone for i.e a minute would the damage output be higher with strength runes with one might stack for a minute or with the other?

If you were to compare the damage dealt by these you’d have to take into consideration crit chance (A crit damage focused rune setup provides little to non-critical hits)

So to compare the 2 (With a single might stack permanently up) I’ll use the following:
1000 damage weapon (No variance, nice round number to use), 2000 Power (Nice average power), 50% crit chance (Nice round number, also an average target), 100% base crit damage (Very high, about average target for a full Crit damage focused build pre-runes) and a GC light armour target (1800 armour) on an ability with a co-efficient of 1 (A nice average attack, something like an auto-attack)

1000 * 2210 * (1 * (0.5 * 2.6)) / 1800 = 1596.1 Average damage for 5 Scholar 1 Divinity
1000 * 2190 * (1 * (0.5 * 2.5)) * 1.05 / 1800 = 1596.8 Average damage for 6 Strength

The difference in it is very small (0.7 damage in this case) but this doesn’t factor in the 20% increased duration of Might (Allowing for more stacks of Might to be achieved) or the 3% chance to gain Might when hit.

Naturally, the 5 Scholar 1 Divinity will pull ahead when crit chance increases while the Strength runes will pull ahead if less crits occur.

If going for a Might build, it may be beneficial to go for 2x Strength, 2x Hoelbrak and 2x Fire runes for a total of 75 Power + 60% Might duration to maximise Might stacks.

If considering that Power of Inertia (Acro 10) gives 15 seconds of Might + Feline Grace (Acro 15) allows 1 Dodge per 5 seconds you can average out 3 Might stacks base.

With 60% Might duration from runes and the 15% from 15 in Acro (75% duration) the Might will last 26 Seconds and will allow for an average of 5 Might stacks (175 Power)

To maximise this you can go 30 Acro + 60% Might duration + Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew (100% chance for Might + 40% Endurance regeneration) this will give each dodge 2 Might stacks for 28.5 Seconds. With an average of 1 dodge per 3.57 seconds you can average out 14 Might Stacks (490 Power)

Atherakhia.4086:

For WvW, how do you guys get toughness? Do you find you just don’t want/need it? I was planning to go full Valk armor, serker weapons, and Cavalier everything else with accuracy on offhand and full rubies to help with the low crit chance.

This will give about 15k hp, 2.5k armor, same power, and 35% crit chance (30 traits) or pretty close to that.

Just trying not to waste my laurels and such if it turns out full serkers is the better option.

For WvW I go Full Zerker armour and Trinkets with Valk Weapons, Orbs and Jewels. This gives about 14-15k health (Depending on traits) and I go 30 into Shadow Arts for the Toughness giving 2280 Armour.

Generally I just want to have enough health to survive initial bursts, Toughness is not something I actively seek out (I prefer instead to try and maximise Health and Evades)

My current WvW build – http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|8.1p.h14.8.1p.h1|5.1p.h17|1g.a1.1g.a1.1g.a1.1g.a1.1g.a1.1g.a1|1g.61.1g.61.1g.61.1g.61.1g.61.1g.61|0.u36c.u356.a2.0|1b.1|0.0.0.0.0|e

I get about 10 Might stack up so have an additional 350 Power when fighting.

bhagwad.4281:

Warriors need to already be in combat to get the adrenaline for kill shot.

Healing Surge and Berserker Stance can be used to fill endurance without entering combat.

Adrenaline also doesn’t fade immediately upon leaving combat, it can stay maxxed out for a fair while after leaving before it starts to decay.

red light november.3521:

I am running on all Divinity with Full Valkyrie Gear and Zerker jewels for WvW. I have been swapping through many kinds of gear and build trying to find something I can settle on. Been wasting alot of many that way due to my indecisiveness.

I feel maybe I should swap for scholars and go ahead with more dmg.

For WvW I’d suggest something like 6x Scholar (For burst builds) or 6x Ruby/Beryl Orbs (Really cheap and very effective)

Ruby Orbs give 20 power, 14 Precision and 2% critical damage each. Totalling 120 Power, 84 Precision and 12% critical damage.
Beryl Orbs give 20 power, 14 Vitality and 2% critical damage each. Totalling 120 Power, 84 Vitality and 12% critical damage.

The same damage equation for these (Not including the additional ~4% crit or 840 health as factors in decisions)

1000 * 2120 * (1 * 1.62) / 1800 = 1908 Basic damage equation.

Considering that Orbs cost about 5-10 silver each (Compared to some runes being over 2 gold each) it’s very cost effective for trying out builds.

That said, going into the Heart of the Mists can allow you to try out various runes in your builds (Since all Runes are Free and you have various dummies and Steady Weapons to help test)

Authority.6145:

Can you please do the calculation with Strength runes please?

6 Strength Runes = 155 Power
6 Strength Runes + Might bonus = 155 Power (+35 per Might stack) + 5% damage

1000 + 2155 * (1 * 1.5) / 1800 = 1795 Basic damage calculation with no Might
1000 + 2155 * (1 * 1.5) * 1.05 / 1800 = 1885 Basic damage calculation for Might bonus, with no Might stacks
1000 + 2190 * (1 * 1.5) * 1.05 / 1800 = 1916 Basic damage calculation for 1 Might stack

Bearing in mind the 20% additional Might duration will increase the amount of stacks of Might you can keep up and also Might and the 5% damage increase will increase non-critical damage aswell.

6 Divinity = 60 all stats + 12% critical damage

5 Scholar + 1 Divinity = 175 Power + 10% critical damage.

You get more than double the power from the Scholar runes at the cost of 2% critical damage and 60 of other stats (60 precision, 60 toughness, 60 vitality, 60 Condition damage, 60 Healing Power)

When including that in a damage equation for pure DPS gain:

1000 * 2060 * (1 * 1.62) / 1800 = 1854 – Basic damage equation for 6 Divinity

1000 * 2175 * (1 * 1.6) / 1800 = 1933 – Basic damage equation for 5 Scholar 1 Divinity

This shows that the additional power outweighs the additional crit damage.

This doesn’t mean 6 Divinity isn’t viable, as it does increase survivability slightly and also increases crit chance.

It’s common amongst all jellyfish.

They have 2 types of attack – One where they swing their tentacles into you and one where they start to spin

The spin is similar to the Necro Spear Spin/Warrior Spear Spin in that it does damage (Theirs also stacks Poison each hit) in a PBAoE over time

The ability itself can be spotted quite easy (They prepare to spin instead of pulling their tentacles back) and can be Interrupted (Via Sink on Trident #4) or moved away from (Their version acts like the Warrior one where they charge forwards unless they’re hitting a target)

If there are multiple Jellyfish this attack can very easily be ovewhelming for any class (Maybe Thief with long duration Evades on Spear #5) but it can be kited out if you can cripple/chill them

Fred Fargone.3127:

1) Nobody is forcing you to do the world completion, therefore, nobody is forcing you to play WvW.

No but to get the World Completion (Though considering that WvW isn’t actually part of the “World” of Tyria) which is not only there for the title/star but also a part of getting Legendary Weapons which is an end-game goal for many people (In before – “But you also need Badges of Honour which is gained through WvW” and the obvious counter argument of “WvW Jumping Puzzles don’t require other people to capture the puzzles first and allow PvE players to get a bunch of Badges per day”

2) World completion is just that, world completiong. Not “PvE completion”. Or “Explorer” or anything like that. It includes two distinct parts that, if we take a look at the average(ish) time it takes to complete both, we get around 50% 50% split between PvE and WvW. For some, PvE part takes considerably longer, for some, WvW takes considerably longer. Simple as that.

WvW and PvE completion are different in the fact that PvE can be done at any time, any build and by anyone (Except low level sPvP and tPvP players) without needing to rely on other people in your server working together and people in 2 other servers not.

3) Your server does not need to dominate WvW for you to be able to do the title

Technically no, but your server does need to have captured every Tower and Keep in all of the Borderlands and the Eternal Battlegrounds at some point for you to be able to access many of the Vista’s and Points of Interest. Either that or you need to buy server transfers to move to servers that currently own the places that you need.

The main issue that comes up with the WvW completion is:

• A lot of PvE players want to get World Completion but have little to no interest in WvW
• A lot of WvW players hate PvE players coming into WvW and not contributing (Similar to the WvW jumping puzzles, but that’s a different thread)
• WvW completion relies upon people on your server working together and people on other servers not to be able to capture the relevant areas to get the necessary PoI’s and Vistas
• PvE completion has none of these restrictions and isn’t a problem for WvW players (Other than them becoming bored at the PvE content, which even some PvE players get bored doing)

If it comes down to trying to entice PvE players to become active in WvW, bring in things like Titles, Vanity items and gear that comes from WvW (For example; Dungeon gear is unique in it’s looks and yet WvW has no similar unique looking items) this also has the benefit of helping exclusive WvW players have something to make them stand out (Outside the “Invader” titles that were recently implemented)

bomber.1540:

Where on earth did you get those dmg numbers, by reading that, it looks like pw and unload deals 4 times the dmg fs does.. Clearly wrong as flanking strike is one of the hardest hitting abilities in the game! It’s only just behind backstab and a full rotation of pw..

Fs, pw and unload can all hit for approx 7k in spvp.. I think that’s very reasonable

If your numbers above is what you think the dmg should be, why so little dmg for flanking strike?

Using his numbers, Flanking Strike does 8 less damage than a full unload.

Remember, tooltips use x8 or x2 to signify how many attack the damage is dealt in, rather than how many hits of that damage are done.

E.g. x2 1200 Flanking Strike would do 600 damage per hit while x8 1200 Unload will do 150 damage per hit.

On Topic: I think some of the damages are really high. It’s already possible to hit over 5k damage with Unload in sPvP (Though the Quickness nerf made it much harder to get off)

Shadow Shot already does good damage (I get 3.5k crits out of it) which can be spammed multiple times in a row and it also provides defence through the blind. Buffing it so it does nearly the same damage as Backstab, yet spammable (Would be able to get 3 off back to back with base initiative and they’d deal about 5-6k damage on high health targets, which after 1-2 will be able to exchange into 3-8k Heartseekers to finish targets off in a few seconds)

The only Dual Skill that I feel needs a damage buff is Pistol Whip. Everything else would be fine with simple tweaks such as cast times/initiative costs since they already hit quite hard.

Basalisk Venom is the only Elite I use on my Thief.

Everything else is too situational -

Dagger Storm only really useful against high damage projectiles or large groups of enemies (I don’t tend to engage on large groups of enemies, since Melee and non-projectile ranged abilities will still tear through you especially since Healing and Dodging will interrupt it)

Thieves Guild has a very long cooldown and has downsides such as the Thieves being killed and they are detrimental against other thieves (If you’re both stealthed the Thieves will stand next to you. They give targets to get an easy CnD off etc)

Basalisk Venom has a short cooldown, which means I can use it without trying to wait for “The perfect time” so as to not waste it. It provides a Stun that goes through Defiant which can really help with taking out champions (The amount of times I stunned a Champ who was about to kill someone who then had time to heal up) and in PvP/WvW it gives a decent opening or removes a stun-breaker (Including the secondary utility that most stun-breakers give) and can be cast without breaking stealth (So that 4 second vulnerability when revealed, goes down to 2.5 seconds)

1.5 seconds may not seem like a long time, but if you’ve ever needed to get a heal off now and been delayed by CC before… It can be killer.

I’d suggest something like Corruption on the Staff.

Due to the way Sigils work, as in Sigils that have a cooldown (On Crit and On Weapon Swap) will not proc if another sigil is on cooldown.

This means that an “On Swap” sigil may not trigger if you’ve just procced the Earth sigil on the Sceptre.

While on the other hand something like Corruption can help keep stacks increasing if you swap weapons.

Failing that you could always put an Orb/Crest on it for more stats (I do that with some classes whom only use certain weapon sets for utility rather than a main damage source)

FletchTalon.8320:

For a ranger at least, this means that a thief can stomp with absolutely no risk in a 1v1 scenario. I don’t know how you figure I can slow down a stealth stomp. Not only can I not interrupt, I can’t deal any damage at all because both my damge dealing downed skills require a target.

Use pet fear (From Wolf F2) > Thunderclap when the Thief becomes visible > Lick Wounds + Bandage to rally and then continue fighting.

Sure it requires having the Wolf equipped, but considering it’s a popular pet for PvP due to the AoE fear allowing Rangers to counter Thieves stomps and Shadow Refuge and other abilities from other classes it’s not such a bad thing to need to rely on.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Those training sessions will not educate the new players since counter to those skills/combo are not limited to dodges and interrupt. Depending on their prefered profession, the counter differs.

Of course there are multiple ways of countering thieves (Blocking/Soaking BS to get revealed, Aegis, Blind, CC in stealth to make it time out, AoEs in stealth, auto-attacking in stealth, knocking out of Shadow Refuge, fearing out of Shadow Refuge etc)

It’s just that even the Devs have mentioned that the 2 mechanics that cause new players issues are: Stealth (As they don’t know how it works and think Thieves can just go invisible every few seconds at will) and Mesmer clones (They aren’t familiar with how Clones work and how to tell them apart from the real Mesmer)

Stealth is primarily avoidable from countering the 2 common ways of repeated stealth (CnD and BP > HS) via using universal tools (Everyone gets dodges, most builds get an interrupt) and forcing people to acknowledge this will ease the new players frustrations (Without them having to get so annoyed that they roll a Thief themselves, which can happen after causing nerfs via constant complaining)

Mesmers counter can’t really be done via NPC’s as it just takes getting used to them (Or looking for their titles, or by turning NPC names off and keeping Player names on) so they won’t be able to get a similar training mechanic.

So, while this suggestion won’t stop all QQing, it should improve things for new players (Preventing frustration) and hopefully stop the new player QQ and leave just the noob QQers that will continue to cry about everything which could then be promptly ignored.

Swim.6830:

Yupp, sure feels balanced with some toughness on…

I like how in the first picture, you also get hit for 4k damage from a ranger’s pet.

So, my idea is:

What if there was 2 additional tasks in the mandatory PvP tutorial area you have to go through on your first time in PvP which were:

• Dodge 5 Cloak and Dagger attacks (Being used once per 3 seconds in stealth + 4 seconds revealed time)

• Interrupt 5 Black Powder into Heartseeker combo’s (Again being used once per 3 seconds in stealth + 4 seconds revealed time) – This would only work if the starting weapons/utilities provided a means of Ranged (Far enough to avoid the blinds from BP) interrupt/Knockback/Knockdown/Daze/Stun

Also, what if this went further and this was set up in WvW and new players were directed to these NPC’s with a Renown Heart type event to dodge/interrupt these abilities?

Would this make the new players more aware of how to counter thieves and thus stop the “OMG Stealth can’t be countered and Thief is OP” type scenarios from occurring (Thus allowing Thieves to actually be buffed to being viable in high level competitive play without further screwing over new players who don’t know what to do to stop Thieves)

Fenrir.4237:

If you can, then how can you NOT dodge a 0,5 sec precast CnD from a Thief running in like a bloodthirsty fothermuncher while having basilisk activated on him and trying to get within 900 range?

I also find it funny when people try to rationalise this by saying stuff like “Oh the Thief will just use Shortbow until he has opportunity to do the burst” as if that scenario isn’t even more obvious (Swapping SB > D/D at 900 range > 1 second BV cast > CnD pre-cast is kinda obvious…)

Or other things like “Rifle Warriors have no way to create a gap between you and them” ignoring the 1500 range already between them and the ability for a Warrior to swap to GS and use Rush > Whirlwind Attack to put more distance in.

Hmm…

That “PROTECTION” sounds good, I’ll take one.

What’s that? You don’t sell “PROTECTION” to thieves? Okay…

Pentalic.5409:

Learning other classes to counter them comes from in-game knowledge and trying them out.) and I was stupefied by the variety of threads.

I like it when I’m reading other classes sub-forums (Since I play all classes, it’s only fair that I look in some other class forums at least occasionally) and I come across a Thief QQ thread.

Seriously, people QQ so hard that threads in other classes forums become “Nerf Thief plx” threads… It’s depressing as hell.

The trait isn’t actually that bad.

I pick it up in a Chill focused build purely for the increase on the Chill on Spectral Grasp

Going from 4 second duration base to 6 second duration may not seem like much (Only an additional 2 seconds) but since it affects the base duration, it means with the 100% Chill duration I ran with, the trait allowed me to gain an additional 4 seconds of Chill

Which when combined with other sources does allow for easy application of Perma-Chill. 12 seconds per 24 with fully traited Spectral Grasp, 10 seconds per 12 with traited Dark Path and 10 seconds per 16 with traited Spinal Shivers

Can really lock someone down with that.

MrForz.1953:

The name Thief is designed for the relation to thrill, mid-close range, in-combat decisions, initiative, most of the time, being in the middle of the mud, troubles. All the examples you’ve shown respect that.

The examples I provided also showed that even though the class is called “Thief” that the weapons that are used are representative of many different “Rogue” archetypes and the more popular builds utilize them as more of an “Assassin” than a “Thief” to get quick and efficient kills with Dagger/X and Pistol/Dagger with the exception of Sword builds that are more “Trickster”-like using deception and mobility to out-maneuver an opponent.

The design of the Thief is focused around Hit and Run tactics that utilise Burst damage and High mobility to be able to get through high defences of a Bunker build and to be able to gain sustain damage through multiple bursts with survivability through getting out of the fight to recoup and then go back in for more burst.

I believe a single target ranged weapon set focused around dealing burst damage with mobility to help ensure saftey and damage output fits into that design.

it’s just that you crave being a long range invisible assassin.

Taril.8619:

Disclaimer – I’m not saying Thieves need a Rifle weapon set, nor am I saying that I particularly want a Rifle weapon set

Literally the first line of my OP states that I wasn’t actively hoping for the Rifle to come to thieves, as such it did allow me to have an objective viewpoint over possible designs and applications of the weapon set (Unlike a lot of suggestions whom custom tailor skill sets to fit in perfectly with their particular build/playstyle)

Why did I do this if I wasn’t dead-set on getting the weapon set? Because I get bored start thinking about random things, including weapon sets/classes/items for various games. This time it was Rifles for Thieves, which after thought I decided it could play off the “Assassin” aspect of Thieves (Just like a recent suggestion for Staves for Thieves plays towards the “Thief-Acrobat” aspect of Thieves)

MrForz.1953:

And another thread made by someone who’s played/watched too much <insert franchise here>.

Oh, and the franchise I’m basing this on is…

…Oh wait, that’s right I wasn’t basing this off any franchise be it a game or a film/tv programme/internet web series.

It’s based entirely off of “What if?” since I remember people mentioning Rifle’s for Thieves at some point and wanted to put my take on it, including “Why would it be put in?” and also “What role would it realistically take”

It’s not going to happen as it gets in conflict with the very nature of the Thief. Not even Engies will be permitted to have that.

Engies have a 1000 range rifle (Can be traited to 1200 range). Their rifle is designed more as a “Shotgun” rather than a rifle, using short range blasts (Blunderbuss, Overcharged Shot and Jump Shot all being lots of firepower into a short range blast)

The only other Rifle set in the game belongs to Warriors, whom use it as a ranged weapon that provides high burst damage (Kill Shot and Volley both do more damage than a fully traited Backstab that’s using 20 Might stacks and Assassin’s Signet)

Why Thieves can’t use a weapon set that’s more “Long Range Assassin” I don’t know…

Sword plays more towards Trickster/Duelist than a Thief, Daggers play a lot like Assassins in most specs, Pistols play as Assassin/Gunslinger (P/D and P/P respectively) and Shortbow plays more around a Trickster than a Thief.

Really the name “Thief” is misleading, considering that only one ability is based around actually stealing things, which if you’ve ever tried making a build focused around that you’ll find out how awful it is (Lots of traits can be used, but then only come into effect once per ~30 seconds even when fully traited, which makes them very ineffective to have as the focus of a build)

naphack.9346:

Bazeleel.8219:

My only issues with rangers atm is that kitten root skill! Hate that bloody thing!

Word…
Actually, with S/P, you’d have plenty ways of dealing with it
It’s friggin annoying tho. Especially with ranged weapons, you have to click the roots manually. I mean, a mesmer just swaps to sward, becomes invulnerable and mows the thing away. Or swaps to staff and phase retreats out, or, or, or, or…
Thief only got shadow shot, shadowstep, infiltrators strike, steal, infiltrators arrow, pistol whip, … Well and Death Blossom, which would be a huge waste of initiative tho

There is a major flaw with the Rangers Entangle elite.

It applies a 1 second immobilise every 1 second, but when the 1 second immobilise wears off, it’s possible to walk out of the area before the next one is applied and completely negate the entire 150 second elite skill.

Turbo Whale.1738:

I’m not saying you do, but why do lots of people keep asking for long range pew pew pew with a thief?

Because, being the only class in the game that doesn’t have a weapon set that reaches the 1200 range (Cluster Bomb can hit that far, but due to the travel time and the fact it’s a single skill it’s quite lackluster) really limits effectiveness in things such as:

• World Events – Where to be in 900 range is much more dangerous than at 1200 range (For a class with limited defence this is a problem)

• World vs World – Where being within 900 range to be able to hit up on walls is practically suicide (Not the mention the issue of being obstructed which occurs from the angle of shots fired from that distance). Also where not being able to attack anyone from the top of a wall (As everyone else will be 1200 range away) makes you literally useless.

I mean, by default without any utilities or weapon skills, we already get a 900 range instant shadowstep. A lot of the more mobile thief builds fly around the battle like nobody’s business, traversing massive distances in small periods of time.

So do other characters, whom also have 1200 range or higher on abilities. For example: A warrior with rifle has 1200 range (1500 with kill shot) and can swap to a Greatsword and use Rush (1200 Range) > Whirlwind Attack (450 range) > Bull’s Charge (600 range) and move over 2250 range in a few seconds, with little to no impact on damage capabilities (Infiltrator’s Shot being the best spammable mobility move but costing half the thieves base initiative per cast)

Anyways, these rifle skills seem to be next to useless as a whole. It seems to be just a troll weapon where the thief uses infiltrator’s retreat and spams long range skills.

The idea is to do effective long range damage. Managing distance (Also initiative if using the shadowstep, Stealth attacks and such) to try and maximise damage. Unlike what is currently achievable with the already available ranged weapons which do their best damage when in melee range (SB – Cluster Bomb shotgunning. Pistols – P/D Bleed spamming)

Whilst also keeping all abilities useful, and necessary for different situations (Cripple to prevent targets closing the gap, long range shot that only does good damage when at range, shadow step to open a gap and thematic stealth ability that limits kiting for a long duration stealth or can be used as a short duration stealth on the move)

Disclaimer – I’m not saying Thieves need a Rifle weapon set, nor am I saying that I particularly want a Rifle weapon set, this thread is to create a discussion about -IF- Theives would get the Rifle

What role would the weapon fit?

• 1200 Range Weapon (Outside the single skill, Cluster Bomb)
• Purely Direct Damage ranged weapon (Leaving Pistols to become more Condition/up close based and Shortbow to continue it’s reign as highly Utility)
• Pure single target damage (Similar to Dagger main hand)

1. - Deals damage and provides 1 stack of Vulnerability for 5 seconds – 3/4 Cast – 350 Damage.
2. Stealth – Deals high damage and provides 5 stacks of Vulnerability for 5 seconds – 3/4 cast – 700 Damage.
3. - Minor damage and 3 seconds of cripple – 3/4 cast – 300 damage – 3 initiative.
4. - Longshot – Deals damage proportionate to distance – 1 1/2 cast – (0.5 * distance) damage – 5 initiative.
5. - Infiltrator’s Retreat – Fire off a Blinding shot dealing minimal damage and shadow stepping backwards – 0.5 cast – 100 damage – 5 second Blind – 900 range Shadow Step – 4 initiative.
6. - Shadow Guise – Provides 5 seconds of camouflage. If broken by movement provides 1 second of stealth. If broken by knockbacks causes revealed. – 6 initiative.

Yes, I named them backwards (Also limited creativity when it comes to naming various ways of shooting bullets)

Alternatively:
Pistol Mastery – Deal an additional 10% damage with Pistols. Pistol range is increased by 33%.
Ricochet – Pistol shots have an additional 75% chance to bounce to an additional target, 50% chance to bounce to a third target and 25% chance to bounce to a fourth target.
Ankle Shots – Body Shot now also applies Cripple for 3 seconds.

Massively improve Pistol traits to make up for lack of mobility, utility and defence that is commonly found on Pistol based builds.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

By removing its attachment to Blinding Powder, the trigger will not act as an attack, thus it will not trigger the Revealed status.

The trigger has never acted as an attack.

The insta-revealed is caused due to the Stealth proccing mid-attack so that the attack you intend to land (Often it’s a CnD just to be ironic) gives you Revealed without you anticipating it (Since it’s pretty difficult to anticipate dropping to below 25% health, especially with the low base health of Thieves making it so that a lot of hits can do 50% > 25% in one go)

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You think that you need 2000 Toughness to mitigate 20% damage when in fact you only need 20 Toughness because Thieves have a base Defense of 1980.

The baseline for incoming damage calculations tends to use 1836 armour base, as it’s the base of what Light Armour classes will have. At level 80, every light armour class will have a base of 1836, every medium armour class will have a base of 1980 and every heavy armour class will have a base of 2127.

So using 1836 as a base point for calculating damage reduction and 1980 as a base for the class for working out gaining a % reduction gained from stats you can work out:

Base damage reduction from medium armour = 7.27%
To gain 20% damage reduction (27.27% damage reduction total) you’d need ~544 Toughness (Total of 1460 Toughness or 2524 Armour)

So to use that in a basic scenario:

10805 health + 544 Toughness = 14854 Effective Health
10805 health + 544 Vitality = 17519 Effective Health (Due to inherent damage reduction from medium armour)
10805 health + 272 Toughness + 272 Vitality = 16589 Effective health

Going the whole hog and getting 1400 of each stat would end up with:
10805 health + 1400 Toughness = 19892 Effective Health (45.68% damage reduction)
10805 health + 1400 Vitality = 26750 Effective Health (Due to inherent damage reduction from Medium Armour)
10805 health + 700 Toughness + 700 Vitality = 25990 Effective Health

So for a pure “Effective health” standpoint, Thieves with their small health pool and inherent damage reduction from medium armour (Relative to Light armour) pure Vitality comes out as superior.

But this doesn’t account for things such as Conditions, nor ability to heal up the health pool it’s purely a “How long can I live against being punched in the face”

PrimeEvil.2067:

Thank you all for the replies, they were very helpfull.

One more thing Thiefs have a skill or ability that is Stealth…how i learn it in GW2?

There is no ability that called “Stealth” but there are a number of ways to gain stealth as a Thief:

• Cloak and Dagger – The #5 move on Off-hand dagger, deals damage and puts you into stealth for 3 seconds at the cost of 6 initiative – This is the cheapest and easiest way of gaining stealth on a Thief.

• Black Powder + Heartseeker combo – Using the #5 ability on off-hand Pistol causes a Smoke Field, which when combined with the #2 ability on main-hand Dagger provides stealth for 3 seconds at the cost of 9 initiative.

• Hide in Shadows The starting heal skill for a Thief provides stealth for 3 seconds. This has a 30 second cooldown.

• Blinding Powder A 30 second cooldown Utility skill that provides 3 seconds of stealth.

• Shadow Refuge A 60 second cooldown Utility skill that provides pulses of 3 seconds stealth (Stacking up to 15 seconds of stealth) though stealth is lost if exiting the area before it has finished.

• Shadow Trap A 30 second cooldown trap that once triggered by an enemy can be activated to shadow step to the enemy and gain stealth for 5 seconds.

• Hidden Thief A Master Trait that makes your Steal ability provide 2 seconds of stealth (3 seconds with the mandatory 15 point minor trait before)

LordSlack.4685:

Ah that part sucks. If you only equip D/P D like you said, does the offhand P that “remains equipped” proc the swap sigil? Still thinking if you swap to the same weapon set you could benefit from the ini regen and get the 100% crit just like Hidden Killer, but only worry about 1 “on swap” sigil on the off hand weapon.

Yes it does.

Also, you can swap to just an off-hand weapon to the same effect (D/P + /P) to reuse the main-hand weapon if you find it easier to get the off-hand weapon.

It should work (Also, you should only need a copy of 1 weapon, due to dual wielding on one weapon set and swapping to a single weapon as a secondary set will use the same weapon in the “Open” part of the second set as is equipped in the first set. For example: D/P + D would use the same Pistol in both sets)

But you’d lose out on the utility gained from a different off-set such as Shortbow (Mobility, range, AoE), S/D (Mobility, utility, crowd control, condition removal), D/P (No target stealth, AoE Blinds, Gap closers)

Also; all Sigils with a cooldown cannot proc when another Sigil is on cooldown and only one can proc at a time (The main hand one will take precedent over the off hand one) meaning you won’t be able to run with the effects of 2 “On Swap” sigils (Which is generally why Intelligence gets passed up for something like Battle + Geared/Traited Precision for more damage)

I’d like to see more of them (I’ve done all but the WvW ones… Since when I’m in WvW I’m trying to kill people, not prancing about in puzzles)

If possible, I’d like to see a variety of ones that require good platforming skills (Without having annoying drawbacks to failing such as death with distant WP’s) and also “Puzzle” JP’s that require some thought to complete (As opposed to most JP’s which tend to be a single possible route)

PrimeEvil.2067:

1- I’m aiming for damage build (don’t know if i can mix damage with a bit of survival) so wich Stats i should focus on?

It depends on what kind of build you’re going for:

• Condition builds That use either Dagger/Dagger (#3 Death Blossom skill) or Pistol/Dagger (#5 Cloak and Dagger into #1 Sneak Attack) and focus on stacking up bleed damage will be looking at focusing on Condition Damage and also Condition Duration to enhance damage.

• Direct damage builds Will be looking at getting high amounts of Power, Precision and Critical Damage.

• Balanced builds Will want to get a mix of Power, Precision, Critical Damage, Vitality and Toughness. At the higher levels there are sets of gear that provide Power + Precision + Critical Damage (Berserker) and also gear that provides Power + Vitality + Critical Damage (Valkyrie) that are often combined to provide good damage and survivability.

• Hybrid builds Will focus on gaining a mix of Condition Damage, Power and Precision to ensure high direct damage with high condition damage through bleeds that can be applied.

2- Anyone knows a really good web site where i can see good damage builds? At the begining for pve and later pvp, or a mix of both?
I found this site http://www.noxxic.com/ but i don’t know if it’s any good.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Post-Your-Build-Thread/first

Includes a lot of builds people use, but when it comes down to it, it’s often player skill rather than build that wins out in PvP and PvE. That said, looking through the forums at various videos and build discussions will allow you to find the cookie cutter builds and the different gear setups that are used for them.

Lenn.6347:

i was hoping for something that isnt just a cookie cutter 20 30 20

There’s a reason that builds become cookie cutter.

It’s because they’re effective in what they do.

30/30/0/0/10 + 25/30/0/0/15 builds are best for burst

10/30/30/0/0 + 0/30/30/10/0 + 0/20/30/20 are effective for decent burst and survival

I personally use a 0/30/30/10 build using a mix of Berserker and Valkyrie gear and orbs/jewels to gain decent burst and survivability.

As for your build I’d suggest:

10/20/20/20 getting Quick Recovery instead of the Kleptomaniac trait or 0/30/20/20 picking up either Hidden Killer or Executioner instead of Mug (HK providing guaranteed crits for Backstab, Executioner providing large damage output on low health targets creating huge burst with something like Shadow Shot and Heartseeker)

Going 30 into Shadow Arts is also a possibility for additional healing (Though with BP > HS combo only being 3 seconds due to not benefiting from Meld with Shadows, I’m not sure how effective it’d be)

For a majority of D/D thieves you encounter in WvW a simple combination of:

1) Place Black Powder down
2) Stay in the middle of it
3) Watch as they miss all of their attacks on you

Since a lot of thieves are pretty bad and will not swap weapons and will also stand inside the BP (Even though melee range is further than the radius of the skill)

Outside of that, timing Black Powder/Headshot/Dodges to avoid their Cloak and Dagger will screw them over, doing so twice in a row should make them free kills since they won’t have any initiative left.

Star Ace.5207:

(As far as those Necromancers went, was it proven that it was the toughness that drew the enemy aggro, or the higher precision? I know it sounds ridiculous-it doesn’t make sense-but Rabid’s does have higher Precision than Carrion’s, and they probably didn’t emphasize the fact, focusing on the more obvious higher Toughness factor.)

There was quite a bit of testing of purely Toughness based aggro, via body pulling and such combined with things like pulling aggro without actually attacking anything (Which was the main source of frustration, since they’d often get aggro via doing very little and instantly get aggro after being revived and not having chance to do anything)

I think that one of the ways they tested purely the toughness was also via putting points into the Toughness tree (A thing Necro’s like to do to improve their Staff) and putting them elsewhere.

Also, I don’t think people are saying “Toughness is bad for you ‘cause you’ll get aggro” rather “Toughness vs Vitality can go in favour of Vitality as it won’t contribute towards getting aggro” which is true. If you’re spending points/gear for defence, you need to take into account that if you use exactly the same points defensively (I.E. Have the same offence) you’ll be more at risk of getting aggro if you went for Toughness than if you went for Vitality.

This doesn’t mean you’ll pull aggro all the time with toughness, it just means you’re more likely to in a given situation.

Faux Sheaux.6179:

I only have one sigil that activates on weapon swap for each weaponset.

Do you have any that activate “On critical hit”?

Since if any sigil goes on cooldown (Be it an “On Swap” or “On crit” sigil) then no other sigil with a cooldown can activate.

Star Ace.5207:

It is not a “fact” however; high armor characters don’t have an innate “taunt” mechanic at all. I am frequently in groups where I have the most armor, and enemy aggro persistently follows someone else.

Aggro is not 100% dependant on Toughness/Armour, there are other factors involved such as: Distance between you and the target and Damage dealt to the target. These mean that if you go balls to the wall for stacking toughness, the Zerker Warrior could still pull aggro off you due to doing way more damage than you.

It just so happens that we tend to remember when aggro went for us, and somehow, somewhere along the way, people started to blame Toughness levels for this.

This ignores the numerous threads that were made a while back when lots of Necromancers said they had issues with constantly being attacked during combat and tests were then done and concluded with the result that Toughness did increase the likelyhood of getting aggro (A lot of the Necro’s were using Rabid gear, in tests where they swapped to Carrion gear they got aggro much less)

Venoms – Their cooldown is disproportionate to their effects. Their effects are highly conflicting and limiting (For example, Basalisk Venom and Devourer Venom don’t stack with themselves yet Devourer comes with 2 charges and both gain an additional charge from the Residual Venoms Grandmaster trait and can be shared with the Venomous Aura Grandmaster trait)

This means it’s very easy to blow a 45 second (36 traited) cooldown and get a very minor effect (1.5 second stun/2 second immobilise) or gain a large duration condition that can easily be cleansed.

Traps – Making them easier to land via increased size or ground targeted would do wonders for making them more viable. Also make the Thief from Ambush trap more survivable or rework the skill.

Bodyshot – The pistol #2. Provides good amount of Vulnerability for too short a time whilst providing mediocre damage. This skill should be replaced by something that’s useful to both P/D and P/P Thieves (I suggested in another thread it be a 600 range shadowstep with 1 second of Burning AoE upon reaching the destination – A cross between Burning Speed and Infiltrator’s Shot giving Condition damage to P/D and mobility to P/P)

Roll for Initiative – The cooldown seems way too long for one of our few utility stun breakers. I get that since it provides 6 initiative that a low cooldown would make it abusable for spamming but 60 seconds base seems way too long. (I suggest about 45-50 seconds base cooldown)

Scorpion Wire – Suffers majorly from the “Obstructed” bug and also various other bugs. Would be nice to get a fix for them (Also Spectral Grasp and Dark Path for Necromancers would benefit from the same fixes)

It’s quite normal.

Thieves don’t have much survivability when leveling, relying mostly on Stealth (To escape combat and pause the attacks of enemies), Blinds (Through auto-attacking in Black Powder with decent damage/cleaving auto-attacks) or condition damage combined with cripples.

The P/P weapon set lacks a lot of what is usually used by Thieves, it’s entirely single target (Unless picking up Ricochet which is terrible anyway) doesn’t have access to stealth and it’s damage is revolved around Unload which hogs initiative preventing use of Black Powder.

That said, an okay build could probably be made out of going Condition based and using Caltrops and Black Powder combined with auto-attacks to stack up some bleeds whilst keeping targets Crippled (So easy to kite) and Blind (So attacks will miss) though it’d lack damage compared to a D/D condition build (Auto-attack is 1 bleed for 4 seconds per ~0.75 seconds where Death Blossom is 3 bleeds for 10 seconds that also evades when using and can be spammed 3-4 times in a row)

Thunderbrew.7034:

I will double check it, but I didnt see AOE on the smaller ones when
I tested it. Half the times, they missed target completely.

They do have AoE.

It’s just that it’s a smaller radius than the big one.

I know that when I’m using Cluster Bomb I find it much more reliable to keep it as the single bomb for most AoE situations. I tend to split it for single targets and tagging more targets in events.

Are you sure you’re not just encountering the internal cooldown?

Weapon swapping sigils can only occur once per 9 seconds.

Also when any sigil is on cooldown (On crit or on Swap) no other sigil can proc until the cooldown in over.