Guild Wars 2

Luthic.7290:

Ilusionary Reversion would be better off with an 3-5s icd then the 2 clone requirement.
I do know chrono condi was absurd but this change basically cripples it.

Happy with rest of the changes.

it’s the other way around, 3-5 sec icd cripples it.. compared to 2 illusion requirement.

Robert Gee.9246:

Alacrity
The last few changes are related to alacrity. We felt that as it was currently, alacrity wasn’t hitting the right level of impact due to how easy it was to get from the minor trait and how little you could share it with allies. These changes are intended to try and improve how alacrity feels to interact with though traits and skills.

• Flow of Time: Reduced alacrity per shattered illusion from 1s to 0.75s
• Improved Alacrity: Increased alacrity duration bonus from 33% to 50%.
• All’s Well that Ends Well: Changed functionality. This trait now grants 2s of alacrity to allies standing within the well when the well ends.

Regarding alacrity, 0.75 sec + 0.375 sec with improved alacrity gets us to about 1.12 sec and with the well change that’s a good 3 second alacrity with each well that we share. but this benefits only power builds as condition builds dont use wells, so the alacrity nerf hits the condition builds harder.

While our previous specs in pve never could reach top tier dps, with chrono with high level and positional/continuum split/cooldown based gameplay, we could get closer.. and while sharing alacrity is cool, we’r pumping the team’s dps, but falling down on our own. while utility is important to get a mesmer into a dungeon, i also think it’s important that mesmers can actually deal high dps if they spec to it or want to. There should be an option to either deal high damage or deal mediocre damage and give various buffs to friends/allies.

At the end of the day, mesmers shouldn’t become a tool only to up other classes dps by granting them alacrity and quickness while we deal low/mediocre dps. rather we should have an option to deal more damage while not being very team focused. i hope that’s achieved with chrono at the release of HoT.

Robert Gee.9246:

Mallekay.8967:

Robert Gee.9246:

Illusionary Reversion: Updated functionality. You must shatter at least 2 illusions in order to generate a clone from this trait. (You do not count as an illusion towards this total.)

• Yeah I know this one probably stings but when we started looking at it it was pretty silly that this trait could let you get so much power out of just using all shatter skills back to back.

Wouldn’t it be more plausible to set an ICD of lets say 5 secs to prevent chain shattering? I also thought, this trait was intended to eliminate the need for DE.

ICD is another option I think. If it proves too weak in the next BWE we can look at trying this or some other solution.

PvE Perspective only! —

On realistic terms.. the 2 illusions seem to add another level of gameplay to summon atleast 1 phantasm and 1 clone during the first shatter in continuum split and another phantasm after 2 shatters.. but there’s a bwe for testing :-)

As far as icd goes, 2 second icd seems worth it, that would net us about 3 shatters within the split rather than 4, and we cant spam it, rather keep a track of time which promotes higher level gameplay to get the 3 shatters +1 no illusion shatter during the split. 5 sec icd is a dead trait over 50% alacrity increase. With the 2 second icd, we have a choice of either a continuum split burst or consistent damage with alacrity duration increase.

Continuum split was very fun to use for the condition burst considering for the most part, we need to use continuum split at a location where it cant be cleaved/hit easily by pve mobs or keep the mobs dazed or interrupted during the split. Also, when 4 illusions are shattered for continuum split, the illusions dont run to the target, and most of the time, applies only your shatter conditions if your close to the target which coincides with the above mentioned split location usage.

Also, using continuum split with 4 illusions doesn’t spawn a clone with illusionary reversion.. is it intended or?

how would you get 5 clones at the same time? unless the 2 clones from the first shatter actually hit the target, you cant spawn the additional 2 clones and these 2 additional clones shatter only if cry of frustration is used after these 2 clones spawn.

and, if you spawn 2 additional clones before they hit the target, meaning.. the shatter damage didn’t happen with the first 2 clones. you can only play with 3 clones at a time

the daze on the chronophantasm is put in so they dont attack immediately, cause.. after your actual summoned phantasm attack animation is done, you shatter and the chronophantasm, if it attacks immediately.. i can see 2-3 phantasms ripping through targets.. so yeah 1 second daze is cool.

naa, they attack immediately after the 1 second daze, tested it the first day.

the phantasm that pops up after the other phantasm dies is a completely new one, it doesn’t follow the older phantasm’s time of attack.

for the usual pve without reflects if your alone.. berserker beats assassins by a very small negligible amount.

but since you’re talking about the assassins build.. dom/duel/chrono.. this is for phantasm uptime,
for shatter, you could go dom/illu/chrono

also, you’re right, wells work in power builds. Carrion isn’t needed in pve atm.. probably that might change in the future.. carrion reduces damage done over assassins or berserker

Daniel Handler.4816:

The super speed on shatter helps a great deal

absolutely, i made this comment on the other post as well.. i’m spoiled by that trait.. i cant shatter and look at my illusions crawl to the target anymore :-)

Silverkey.2078:

messiah.1908:

i am pvp players and hope anet dont nerf us by pve game play

ahaha, it’s one if the first time I see this sentence it that direction

The fact is even 30 stacks confusion still does lower damage than a standard ele, while the ele can sustain the damage (while here, the chrono gave all he had)

He’s only a pvp player, he wouldn’t understand the so called “intricacies of a simple pve chronomancer”

Or the otherway around, We are pve players, we dont pvp.. even if we want to, we cant.. we’r strictly pve.. targets dont just stand and take damage in pvp you know? :-P

you cant obviously get to 30 stacks of confusion in pvp, the other player might be a total noob :-) just an evade will break it

messiah.1908:

Iavra.8510:

Condi Chrono (Dueling, Illusions, Chrono) is pretty broken, i’ve seen bursts for 30+ confusion by pretty much spamming all shatters twice with iReversion.

how the hell 30 stacks

if you began with 3 clones with F2 its 8 stacks than f1 its 2 stacks than f3 its 2 stacks and f4 its 2 stacks and f5 its 2 stacks and all over again with f1-f4 which is 8 stacks
so total 24 stacks with #3 scepter its 6 more. but the duration of the earlier stacks will be finished

now did you use it on golem like anet did?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qtxJ_HtB1A

are you sure? :P
what you see there is all condition damage, no physical damage cause that mob takes no damage from front (all those 0’s you see)

skill 5 is really good if u have friends along, mass quickness :-)

what the orignal poster thought was good.. it’s just not feasible and by no way is it too much or overpowered :P

you and me just buffed it :-)

mr. 2 month break rushing sir.. what you mentioned will work, it’s just not “overpowered” or “too much” as you mention cause phantasms are dazed for 1 second after the chronophantasma effect takes place, while your getting phantasms quickly and while they’r also attacking quickly.. its a burst with continuum split and that’s about all you have for losing out on a dps trait line now that you’re a chronomancer.

Once those ground torment mobs have moved from a place to another with that torment on the ground.. illusion superspeed is awesome, but.. interrupts will wreck them if timed properly when they’re about to move (chaos storm, magic bullet, diversion)

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

from the video, 1/4rth of the time the mesmer’s casting phantasms, wells etc.. damage per second is alright.. not over the top even on a stationary target, mesmer’s stationary as well.. even with the pve gear, it’s not gonna be over the top. it’s the ideal scenario – stand in a place and damage something that stands in a place, i know it’s only a test, but even if the dps is really high, it’s too good of a scenario to think of, try it in verdant brink or silverwastes, the new maps are going to be how those 2 maps are.

fair enough

I dont think that’s op at all.. the video link i mean. yeah your getting a 100% alacrity uptime.. but the damage potential that i see is not like it’s over the top.

but lets say.. alacrity gets to 33% and the duration is doubled.. what you see in the video cant be done which means.. you’re sacrificing a dps trait tree to get chronomancer which gives you 33% faster recharge on probably 100% uptime.. i dont see the point of chronomancer just for 33% recharged skill rate over a dps trait line.

if i’m not wrong, aren’t phantasms dazed for 1 second when chronophantasma activates?

what you make is a valid point from your perspective guang. chronomancer itself is based on shatters.. half of chronomancer traits promote shatter oriented playstyle.. you want alacrity not be based on shatters?

Agreed, recall isn’t that great.. but there’s still time to test it along with mimic and continuum split, that’s quite a lot of party alacrity.

Lets say, they drop alacrity to 33%, are you expecting triple the alacrity uptime to make it relevant?

Sorry, it’s just hard to grasp what your actually asking for

yeah.. i mean.. i hate to see my illusions walk to the target now :P

so.. i’v been playing it a lot more.. the superspeed on illusions when you activate shatters is really really good. i’v been spoiled with that trait, cant seem to play without it :-(

thx bro.. there are way more uses for continuum split.. still in the ways of figuring stuff out :-)

WizardBro.4510:

Umm yeah we all knew Mesmer was good in everything but it’s suoper broken in pvp now

This is to showcase the damage potential of a pve condition mesmer using chronomancy, it wont work this way in pvp by a very large margin.

Started the burst after he finished his charge.

Video – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qtxJ_HtB1A

Build – http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgMFdALYBlg~

Connected post – https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Chronomancer-PvE-Condition-Build/first#post5358935

This was just a trial, but you can use Continuum split much better than i did in the video.. meaning.. you can dump in another extra skill as well since.. i started shattering a little late.. but the damage and burst can be noticed with a 7k+ confusion hit at the end when he starts to charge again.

how infinite alacrity on other players?

Mirror image + phase retreat (3 illusions) continuum split → 6 seconds reversal → timewarp, chaos storm, use all the other 4 shatters (2 illusions each shatter) → inflicts 7 torment and 14 confusion.. continuum split shatter doesn’t seem to be producing an illusion.. so i’m guessing it doesn’t come under a shatter category.

once the continuum split is down.. u have many seconds of alacrity on you.. and every skill other than mirror image is out of cooldown.. happy bursting again :-) this time with phantasms and scepter :-)

Swish.2463:

Chrono and the wells dont lend themselves well to AoE condition Bombing..

I tried several builds today using different tactics and weapons and traits and Zerker gear came out on top still.

I was of more use doing large swathes of CC spam / Slow up keep and AoE direct damage than i was trying to jerry rig and gimmick a condition shatter build out of this sub class.

Hmm, wells for condition builds aren’t great, probably the only one you’d use is well of recall for alacrity.. but isn’t needed imo.. signet of domination and signet of midnight and mirror image.

you can only aoe condition bomb with chaos storm and interrupts and probably a quick 3 illusion shatter without chronomancy
with chronomancy, it’s on another level.. you get 6 illusions easy.. infact more than 6 to be honest if you play it right.. and you have all the older options available.. chaos storm and interrupts.

aoe on a condition build isn’t limited to a few shatters infact nearly every shatter except diversion, if traited that too :-) chaos storm, magic bullet.. and izerker is alright but iwarden isn’t great in these areas.

also, mirror image is too awesome now.. with alacrity :-)

i dont think “wat, wat, are we even playing the same game” would suffice to be an explanation enough for the point you’re trying to make.. i dont even see it as a reply.. enlighten me how exactly are you gonna outdps a condition build on creeps that move, charge, go underground, have high armor, knockdown etc, you will still kill them.. not that you wont.. but it’s just not as good as a condition build.

Keeping dungeons aside, power builds in open world are bad.. verdent brink, silverwastes etc.. you cant outdps a condition build in these areas by any means. you cant kill a huge mob of creeps with power builds quickly. Lets be honest, if u’v played condition builds in the new maps and a few other places in the open world.. you cant run around with a sword or a greatsword in those areas and expect to deal the same amount of damage.

The damage, the continuous shatters, and the clone production is sooo good, and with alacrity.. the build got a lot stronger than with the chaos trait line

http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgMFdALYBlg~

Weapons - Staff & Scepter/Pistol with Sigil of Bursting(both weapons), Sigil of Corruption and the left over sigil spot is entirely upto you :-)
Armor - Rabid with Superior Rune of the Undead (no sinister in beta)

Playstyle – clones, phantasms, keep shattering… Shattering inflicts confusion, blind, torment and gives you alacrity

I can make a video if people are interested.. very fun playstyle and very high damage

feels like a hex from gw 1 more than a condition

chaos angel contributed a lot to the mesmer community.. i like him too… but this is such an awkward post :P i dont know how to reply or react to this

Myxam.2790:

I’m not sure if the 1.32 AS is correct if that’s the case, I’ll head to the HoM and do a time test on Staff and Stave Clone.

I’ve also got to see if people are measuring it as Attacks per Second or Attack Delay…

If its the former, then Quickness would give 1.98 attacks per second, which equates to essentially 2 attacks.

I haven’t found any recent AS for Stave Clones, but we could assume its .9 Attacks per second for theoretical maffs. Which makes under quickness, Clones attack 1.35 times a second.

33% chance per bounce gives a 43% chance per cast if it bounces to a teammate -once-.

2 Attacks per second can give at most 4 stacks of burning per second, which means 8 with in the window.

For Clones, 1.3 attacks per second equates to at most 6 stacks of burning in the window.

If I have two clones that equates to 20 Stacks maximum within the window (if my math is correct, which its likely not).

Burning Duration is 1.85 seconds from Winds of Chaos.

I think realistically, I could have 14 stacks of Burning with 2 Clones.

Unless, Phantasmal Haste is bugged in what all it effects. If we go with that hypothetical… I’ll have to do that after lunch.

It’s measured in attack delay, time between each attack. staff clones attack once every 1.25 seconds without timewarp. atleast phase retreat clone attack interval is 1.25 seconds which seems to be right. i just tested it, looks like it attacks after 1 second has passed.

33% chance to apply burning but bounce is basically a 50% chance cause after the bounce to a friendly target, it either bounces to a friendly target again or the enemy target.

i guess it’s arright with these small environmental effects, i trust in anet not making a game breaking bug out of it :-)

Myxam.2790:

Telekinesis.8312:

20% (signet of midnight), 15% (chaotic persistance considering you have 5 boons active), 40% food, 10% utility gets you to 85% burning duration.
considering 100% burning duration, winds of chaos applies 2 seconds of burning.
supposing you have 3 staff clones active in timewarp, it’s 0.93 seconds per attack with quickness. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phase_Retreat
lemme know if i’m wrong on this calculation of timewarp attack speed and ignore everything below if i am.
Your attack speed under timewarp is once every 0.99 seconds.

4 guys using winds of chaos 10 times in 9.9 seconds, lets say all your winds of chaos hits apply burning where each stack of burning lasts for 2 seconds. In a 2 seconds window, you and your illusions hit 3 times at 0, 0.99, 1.98 which gets up to 12 stacks of burning
now lets take the bounces into equation, lets assume the bounces aren’t bouncing between your teammates, but rather bouncing off to the target every single time and applying burning 100% of the time again gets you to 24 stacks of burning in a 2 second window under timewarp.

I’v taken every favourable option that a mesmer has to get the highest stacks of burning possible considering the attack speed calculation under timewarp is right.

Now, burning has a 33% chance on proc both the times, lets make it a 66% chance which gets us to 16 stacks of burning.

Above, someone stated the Staff attack time for the Player is 1.32 without Quickness, wouldn’t that make the attack speed under quickness .76 seconds?

0.66 you mean? i think 0.66 is the old quickness buff with 100% speed, it’s only 50% now.. if by that means.. with the old quickness we’d have no attackspeed on winds of chaos and it would become instant which wasn’t the case :-)

but one thing is for sure, i just noticed on my staff auto attacks, it’s doesn’t seem to be 1.32 seconds anymore, it’s faster, while the clone remains the same. but even if that’s the case, your character might give in 4 attacks in 2 seconds.. gets the number to 26 from 24 which is still not consequential. so imo those burn stacks have been probably applied by someone else.. even if it’s only around 3 stacks of burning considering your heavily favoured in the math, you probably would get to 15-17

I think winds of chaos attackspeed has been improved? anyone’s noticed? i dont think it seems to be 1.32 seconds anymore

20% (signet of midnight), 15% (chaotic persistance considering you have 5 boons active), 40% food, 10% utility gets you to 85% burning duration.
considering 100% burning duration, winds of chaos applies 2 seconds of burning.
supposing you have 3 staff clones active in timewarp, it’s 0.93 seconds per attack with quickness. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phase_Retreat
lemme know if i’m wrong on this calculation of timewarp attack speed and ignore everything below if i am.
Your attack speed under timewarp is once every 0.99 seconds.

4 guys using winds of chaos 10 times in 9.9 seconds, lets say all your winds of chaos hits apply burning where each stack of burning lasts for 2 seconds. In a 2 seconds window, you and your illusions hit 3 times at 0, 0.99, 1.98 which gets up to 12 stacks of burning
now lets take the bounces into equation, lets assume the bounces aren’t bouncing between your teammates, but rather bouncing off to the target every single time and applying burning 100% of the time again gets you to 24 stacks of burning in a 2 second window under timewarp.

I’v taken every favourable option that a mesmer has to get the highest stacks of burning possible considering the attack speed calculation under timewarp is right.

Now, burning has a 33% chance on proc both the times, lets make it a 66% chance which gets us to 16 stacks of burning.

you dont shatter instantly, you shatter mindwrack when your full on illusions, and your about to summon your scepter auto attack clone, cof shatter is on cooldown though, the other shatters can be blown away alone or just 1 illusion… they’r just dps boost
Timewarp is your friend during scepter auto attack clone generation.

and if it’s openworld, you pretty much hit illusionary counter everytime.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Won’t the shatter build still get some conditions from the illusions it creates?
Yes!
Not as much as you might think but it’s still there.
Shattering constantly is pretty hard, so I’m going to go on a limb and suggest that conditions from clones will be pretty low, based on how they apply conditions. So let’s just consider phantasms for the moment, specifically the iDuelist.

Since you get a volley off the iDuelist before you shatter it, you’ll get some bleeds every time you summon one. Now, we won’t be able to leave it up for a second volley (and you don’t want us to anyway), so on a 20second cooldown you get 1 volley every 20 seconds.
Average bleed stacks per volley is 5, at 5 seconds each. That goes up from our generic condition duration, but since we aren’t specced for bleeds, we don’t get as much out of it as the bleed build does. That’s okay, it’ll still be something like 7 seconds or so.
So that’s 5 stacks at 7 seconds per 20 seconds, which is 5 stacks with 35% uptime, which averages to 1.75 stacks per second.
That’s not a lot, but it’s something, and we need to consider it. We can do so by saying that we need to add 1.75 to our 29.2 stack estimate on the bleed build, leaving us at needing 31 stacks of bleeds consistently to match the shatter build on a constantly moving enemy that attacks twice per 6 seconds, and probably unable to match on an enemy that is much faster than that.

Anything left?
Sort of.
If I can keep 30 stacks of bleeds up with staff clones, or 2 clones and an iDuelist, I can pop Cry of Frustration and be back up to full illusions at least as often as iDuelist comes off cooldown, which is more often than Cry of Frustration comes off cooldown.
So I can keep Cry of Frustration on cooldown, and still have nearly 100% illusion uptime. This is, in fact, how I generally play when I’m trying to do sustain damage.
That gives me the same 8 stacks of confusion as the shatter build for CoF, on the same cooldown, but with lower duration. For my build, it’s at about 5s.
That’s 23.5% uptime on 8 stacks, which averages to 1.88 stacks of confusion sustained.
At no triggers that’s less than 2 stacks of bleed, but at higher triggers that’s more. At our assumed 2 attacks per 6 s it’s about 1 for 1 (1.83 stacks of bleed), so that brings us back down to our previous 29.2-30 stacks…which as you’ve already admitted is achievable.

We could pick up some torment on that CoF too, if we gave up Phantasmal Haste for Maim the Disillusioned, but…I’m dubious whether that would give any dps increase. You’d be trading iDuelist bleed stacks for Torment stacks, and I don’t like that tradeoff.

Lastly, I think it’s certainly possible to be using Mind Wrack on top of CoF with the bleed build while still keeping illusions up, but you’d be losing iDuelists so often that you might as well go shatter at that point. More likely, you’d get Mind Wrack as an occasional burst option, right after you shatter a CoF but before you get a duelist up, if you can get clones up fast enough.

^ For the first part, your underestimating the illusion spawn rate in scepter.
I’m not gonna count the interrupts reducing pistol skills as well and go with your numbers.
For the most part u’ll end up with atleast 69% bleed duration due to chaotic persistence + signet of midnight + food in a shatterbuild. that’s 8 seconds each atleast.
You’v only calculated bleed stacks from iduelist, and no extra stacks from other illusions at all.
Regarding my gameplay, for the most part.. i’m good at interrupting targets, yes even dungeon bosses.. you need to be quick about it at the right times.with chaos storm and other interrupts, you break the present defiance stacks very quickly. i did upload a video of my dungeon run in a pug the other day, and you can notice the interrupts even during a boss fight.
If you just stand and attack a boss, in a full dps sinister condition build, you can keep up 13 stacks of torment, the bleeds as you mentioned and 12 stacks of confusion.. without interrupts** on a single target, now lets come to the damage you get with confusing images spam off cd and illusionary counter torment stacks and ineptitude.

And most importantly, your illusions and phantasms dont stay alive for the most part in pve, silverwastes etc.. but since we’r talking about a hypothetical situation.. just for the numbers :-)

Let’s make an additional assumption as an extension of #1 above:
1a. Illusion generation is not a factor. Obviously it is, but you can get it down pretty well with Deceptive Evasion. We can come back to it later if we need to.

Traited cooldown for Mind Wrack is 10.2s, CoF 21.25, Diversion 12.75, Distortion 16.15.
Duration for torment is 12s, Confusion is 6s, by your numbers.
If you can keep all four shatters on cooldown, never shattering at less than 3 illusions:
Mind wrack: 4.67 stacks of torment up with 100% uptime, 4 stacks of confusion with 58.8% uptime.
CoF: 4 torment with 56.5% uptime, 8 confusion with 28.2% uptime
Diversion: 4 torment with 94.1% uptime, 4 confusion with 47.1% uptime
Distortion: 4 torment with 74.3% uptime, 4 confusion with 37.2% uptime

Normalizing these numbers,
Average torment stacks per second: 13.67
Average confusion stacks per second: 7.98

At the per-tick damage numbers I quoted above, average per-second damage is
No triggers: 1995.9
Torment but no confusion triggers: 3381.3
Confusion but not torment triggers: 2443.4
Confusion and torment triggers: 3838.8

So an always-moving enemy that makes no attacks will be close but not quite to our bleed numbers.
It’s not until you add some skill usages on an enemy that moves a lot (or an enemy that moves a little but attacks like a thief) that you pass up the bleeds respectably.

How many more bleeds would we need to catch up to full triggers?
3828.8-3400 = 428.8. 428.8/136 = 3.2 stacks of bleed. So 28.2 stacks of bleed is evenly matched to the shatter build with a constantly-moving enemy that makes 2 attacks every 6 seconds.
What if the enemy makes more attacks than that? Well, we can calculate how many stacks of bleeds we’d need to make up for one extra attack every 6 seconds.
At 168.25 damage per attack, one extra attack every 6 seconds gives 28.04 extra damage per second on average per stack. With average stacks at 7.98, that’s 1342.6 extra damage per extra attack in 6 seconds. That means you need 9.87 stacks of bleed to make up for it.
So if there’s anywhere for the confusion/torment build to gain the most ground, it’s here. Even a single extra attack in 6 seconds is almost as much extra dps as the entire torment moving-penalty (3828-2443=1385).

So against enemies that use a skill 4 or more times per 6 seconds, shatter wins.
Against enemies that attack 3 or more times per 6 seconds, and move a fair bit, shatter wins. Against anything else, bleed wins.
Are there other factors that can change our math?

^ Your calculations cant compare to 100% of bleeds because -
while the 100% bleeds your calculating is with everything included, your auto attacks, clone and phantasm attacks included. you probably apply 3-5 stacks of burning at max while sitting in staff, cause there’s no way you can play bleeds in scepter, correct me if i’m wrong here.
what your calculating is only the shatters damage without any application of exterior skills, namely confusing images, lets not add illusionary counter. but there’s still scepter auto attack granting you 4-5 stacks of torment, not to mention the bleeds that your illusion crits.
Your calculations above are for example – 20 seconds of bleed build all skill usage vs 20 seconds of shatter skills only*** (this is only an example, but i hope you get where i’m coming from)

First are our assumptions.
Loosening assumption 1 to assumption 1a still leaves us wondering if you can keep up the kind of illusion generation needed for constant shattering. If this is not true, the shatter build loses even more average dps. I’ll say this could be reasonable, though. I really don’t know, I don’t use f3/f4 offensively that much. I know I can keep f1/f2 on cooldown if I want to, using Deceptive Evasion for clone generation

We already tackled Assumption 2 by considering how much faster an enemy would need to attack.

Weapon skill rotations is too complicated, imo. At the point you start to account for that, I think you’d need to start doing real-kill comparison trials, as things start to get really complicated really fast. I think the basic assumption is theoretically sound, however, given that both builds appear to be using the same weaponry. There is some consideration to be given to the shatter build’s focus on confusion/torment durations over bleeds, as they’ll get more mileage out of the scepter weapon skills.

Stacking bleeds up to 25 or higher? You’ve already admitted you think the norm is about 30, so we’re agreed that my estimate of 25 was conservative.

^ Lets not change the assumptions now for keeping it strictly within bounds of your calculations

Is there anything else?
Yes, actually.

Bleeds are easy, it’s 136 damage per tick, for 3400 damage per tick total.

Confusion flat damage is 76.5 damage per tick. Torment untriggered is 101.4, Torment triggered is 202.8.
Confusion adds 168.25 per trigger.

So baseline damage per tick with no triggers = 20(76.5)+16.67(101.4) = 3220
With torment triggered but not confusion = 4910
With confusion triggered but not torment = 4342
With both confusion and torment triggered = 6032

So without triggers, flat 25 bleeds outperforms.
With triggers, shatters outperform.

^ With the assumpted calculations you made, triggers do happen if not on torment, atleast on confusion during a dungeon boss. dungeon boss in particular due to no movement.

Now let’s consider uptime, because that’s what sustained dps is all about.

The bleeds are 100% uptime, so it remains at 3400.

0% uptime for both confusion and torment triggered is 3015.
At what uptime does confusion/torment match bleed?
For untriggered, even 100% doesn’t match up.
For torment but not confusion, 69.25%
For confusion but not torment, 78.32%
For torment and confusion, 56.37%

^ I thought you calculated the stacks of torment and confusion to be on a 100% uptime just as bleeding is. otherwise these calculations aren’t needed. also, your calculation on top with no trigger shows 3220. You haven’t taken bleeding into account yet even on a shatter build, you have atleast 10 stacks of bleeds as a 100% uptime.

So on a constantly moving enemy that makes at least 2 attacks every 6 seconds, you need to have a 56.37% uptime on your full condition load to match the sustained damage of 25 bleed stacks.

^ Okay, 56.37% of the uptime you calculated needed if the boss is moving and attacking or using skills twice every 6 seconds.

It’s not easy to keep an enemy moving all the time, and it’s well-known that confusion is weaker in PVE specifically because pve enemies don’t attack very fast at all, in general.
On many bosses, you’ll be lucky to get a single attack out of them within 6 seconds.

^ Your wrong, there is no boss that stands still for 6 seconds without using a skill, but lets move on.

[/quote]Any failure to get triggers on your torment and confusion shifts the required uptime down the scale toward the no triggers numbers. Fortunately, it’s unlikely that you’ll not get any triggers at all in most pve. Bosses like the Mangler and Troll in Vinewrath and Breach won’t trigger torment much at all, but they’ll get you some confusion triggers from time to time. I’m not sure if the Mangler spinning counts as one trigger or several, though. I’d guess just one, assuming it behaves like Daggerstorm.[/quote]

^ With your calculations the difference between the non- triggers and bleeds is only 200, even a 1 attack trigger in between will cross the bleeds.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

@Telekinesis: okay, let’s do the math.

Gotta start with some assumptions. We can examine these later if necessary:
1. You can manage to pop all four shatters with full illusions in a close enough amount of time to count them as a single action. This favors the shatter build.

^ You cant pop all 4 shatters with full illusions within a close amount of time but yeah, lets keep that assumption for now.

2. Enemies on average take 2 actions every 6 seconds, when left to their own devices. I don’t know how accurate this is, but it feels right, and I’ve seen it floated around the forums in a few places. Based on SW, I think husks take less than that, wolves take more, and teragriffs take more or less depending, and thrashers definitely take less.

^ Lets take your example of 2 actions every 6 seconds.

3. Weapon skills besides basic attacks are a wash. My bleed build can use scepter2/3 just as well as the shatter build can, and the shatter build can use chaos storm just as well, etc. Optimal skill rotations can mess with this assumption.

^ No, your bleed build cannot use scepter 2 as well, cause you dont go torment duration that’s a 50% less torment duration. Any build can use chaos storm, i dont see how shatter build benefits from it.

4. The bleed build only stacks up to 25. I know many can get more than that, but this is a nice number I can generally guarantee, as I can frankly keep this up with staff clones alone. Adding iDuelists will eventually change the math.

^ With your assumption, lets say you can manage 25 stacks of bleed perfectly well. lets add the iduelists into the equation, lets make it 30 stacks of bleed which you say you can manage on a target without falling off, for the same reason, you need to camp in staff, no assumption here to switch to scepter. Lets still keep to your calculations.

5. Assume 1900 condition damage.

^ Done :-)

At first, we’ll ignore durations, and just calculate based off max stacks for our propositions.

^ We cant ignore durations cause shatter and scepter 2 torment duration is way higher than bleed can ever reach with 100% respective durations.

For yours, 8 stacks of confusion and 4 stacks of torment on CoF, then 4 and 4 for each of the others, that’s 20 stacks of confusion and 16 stacks of torment.
With the exception of Mind wrack, none of the shatters have a low enough cooldown to add any stacks over time, and with a bare 2 seconds to spare, Mind Wrack adds only 1/6 stack of torment per stack applied, which is at most 2/3 of a stack consistently.
So we’re up to 20 stacks of confusion and 16.67 stacks of torment.

^ Lets not assume it in total, you cant maintain 20 stacks of confusion and 16.67 stacks of torment in real situations.. lets keep it at 12-13 stacks of torment, 13-14 stacks of confusion(without ineptitude) and 10-13 stacks of bleeds, i do bleeds as well.. i’m not forced to camp in a staff by any means. i’v taken very nominal numbers here without including interrupts. But for the sake of the debate, lets go with your numbers for now :-)

For mine, as mentioned in assumptions, let’s just assume for a moment that I get 25 stacks of bleeds and no more, and no burning or anything else.

^ Adding burning into the quotation as well, since you’d probably have 2 iduelists, and 1 staff clone, your burning stacks dont exceed 5 by any means. 5 in itself is difficult, but lets assume the maximum number that you can reach. Keeping it aside, lets go with your assumption.

hmm, reddit will help you start, but to be very honest with you, dont follow a guide.. have fun with anything and everything you notice.. everything gives you experience.. crafting, exploring, hearts, events, daily stuff that you normally finish by just playing the game etc etc

There are lots of hidden places in the game unlike most other games out there, stray off the path to find different stuff, hidden chests, jumping puzzles, mini dungeons, a cool little hidden story accross the map.

Join a guild, go on guild missions, guild treks, guild rushes etc

There are lots of stuff to do, but most importantly play the game, the way you feel like.. the game skills, traits etc have changed not long ago.. have fun experimenting :-)

haha, i didn’t know about the interrupt stuff applied on yourself. i hope they dont do the same coding with the desert borderlands with the turrets, traps etc.. it’ll be funny otherwise, people dying to thier own traits

the trait reduces the cooldown on both illusionary counter and confusing images and it’s not broken on the cooldown reduction aspect.

I go upto 15+ torment stacks and 20-25 confusion stacks quickly with a few bleed and poison and burning. but i cant maintain it, that’s where the damage falls in condition builds atm.
Also how did u get upto 18 stacks of burning? at the sametime as 45 stacks of bleed? and 16 stacks of vulnerability on your own? those stacks of burning aren’t your stacks for sure nor are the vulnerability stacks

Watch the video and have fun!

https://youtu.be/coiSEIXOp0g

the blinding sand has ineptitude traited :P

Malicious sorcery is debatable pick. i use it for a quicker illusionary counter and confusing images and i can choose evasive mirror.. i love that trait, but ineptitude is really good as well.

the confusion from blind is 8 seconds duration compared to 6 seconds from other sources when shattered