Guild Wars 2

Chrispy.5641:

…on older videogames, I had no interest in Super Metroid at first. Then I watched my brother play a new game. I watched the opening cutscene and was like “Wow, there’s actually a reason to be shooting everything in sight!”

Honestly, it was something I accepted in that era of games – there was almost never a reason beyond “an adventurer is you” to be doing things. Even text-heavy games like Shadowgate (by the way, the revival handles that pretty nicely too).

You can’t deny that (though you just tried to.)

I was meaning more the NES/Famicom Metroid. Where the story was only in the eyecatch on the title screen after leaving it idle, or in the end screen. Super Metroid had a story built in, sure, but it was the third in the series and reinventing the game over again into something more expansive.

It is also the only Metroid game I can stand to play for longer than an hour.

Your context for playing Terraria is to build, and that game (and minecraft) both dump quite a bit of information if your playing the game for the first time, the rest is made by you (still has a big info dump that is required for new players to enjoy. So does Edge of Space.)

Terraria is weird – there’s not much lore to it on the surface, there’s precious little information which is out there in the game, and you almost have to discover stuff yourself or go find the wiki.

. . . I really don’t know how I feel about the idea of single-player games requiring a wiki to play effectively. I mean, on one hand I really dig the heck out of the MegaTen series and they almost require a guide open next to you to play . . . but you can make your own references if you like. And I really enjoyed Ultima 4 and Dragon Quest 2, also known as “where do I go next?”.

also, Silent Hill has lore-dumps. Pretty much everything does. Even Phineas and Ferb has entire scenes dedicated to telling story and backstory instead of showing cartoony cartoon stuff for all 22 minutes its on air.

I wouldn’t know, I gave the cold shoulder to animation when someone tried to get me to watch all of Friendship is Magic on the grounds it was well-written. It was, but it wasn’t anything which interested me, and the things which did are . . . well, they’d be “Stand Alone Complex” and “Cowboy Bebop”.

I mean, unless you like mindlessly shooting and killing everything in sight with no context and no reason, some people just want entertainment for entertainment and don’t want to think while killing everything in sight. That’s not me, and I’m pretty sure there are plenty of people that think the same way.

Like I said, Lore-dumps are necessary. Walls of Text are not.

I disagree. Lore is necessary. Dumping it into places to be found in huge chunks is not, strictly speaking, necessary. And you can get a long way to making your world feel alive by spreading the density of lore out of cutscenes and into ambient NPCs. (A reason I really liked Final Fantasy 12’s Ivalice.)

You know, I swear I leave you people alone for a few months and it’s back to this again. Look, the charr will still be there to go start a little private war against after we take care of the evil salad-face which is Mordremoth.

Priorities, ladies, gentlemen, sylvari . . .

Gilosean.3805:

I wanted a themepark where I could drop in, play with friends, and leave without pressure. If I wanted to have to arrange my life around a game, I’d be playing Pokemon and WoW.

Not sure about WoW (and not trying it after EverQuest Planes of Power), but I’m not having to adjust my life around Pokemon. Now . . . Animal Crossing . . . <shudder> that was beastly.

I’m also really attracted by the core features, like shared credit for kills and individual resources nodes, everyone can heal / rez, etc. Those really make the game more cooperative and fun. They’re the reason I’m still around.

Right, agreed and the big reason I enjoy playing when I drop in and have some time between life, and other pursuits of happiness.

What did I want out of GW2? Well . . . I got most of it. I’m still missing the bit where it looked like it’d be continuing from threads introduced in Eye of the North but we kind of got back to that semi-recently. I’m mostly looking forward to seeing what they do with the story.

(Note, looking forward as in ‘anxious to hear how it goes’ as opposed to ‘salivating over like Pavlov’s dog’.)

Rox isn’t a gladium anymore, she’s BFFs with the charr’s greatest hero and advising the imperator of an entire legion.

Let’s be honest, my charr warrior also rescued people from being gladiums, and is a BFF with the charr’s greatest hero and can maybe mouth off to the Tribunes a small amount with the rank of Warmaster to back himself up.

Taimi isn’t a random kid with a very, very bad obsession, she’s a kid who’s device singlehandedly saved one of the most iconic inventions of her race and was prominent enough to be stolen by one of their top governing officials.

Hey, like 90% of the asura who exist! How about that. (Yes, sarcasm. I despise this about the asura above anything else – how their tech is simultaneously impressively powerful and impressively broken in the same timeframe.)

But none of these plot details are directly linked to the rise of Mordremoth with the exception of Taimi. As a result, they’re rushing to include the Zephyrite intrigue, the backstory of Glint, the Pact war effort, the Inquest machinations, the corruption of sylvari, the fate of the Pale Tree, and the side events like Rytlock’s little misadventure and the politics of Kryta and the White Mantle without a core cast that actually moves those plot points forward. So we have an erratic juggling act instead of a smooth story.

Very agreed, and this is why I said it really needs to be better laid out than this. I said it last season about Scarlet – she could have been better handled if they’d laid the tracks and details out better rather than rushed into the arc showing her off.

And that’s where I think I’d wind up taking things apart and tinkering with it if I had the project to work on the Living World arcs. To either write the way out of this mess as quickly as possible and start over in Season 4 or have to bludgeon my way to sanity. And Elona.

2/2

Shriketalon.1937:

It’s worth noting that a “proper cast” doesn’t mean the ideal people to solve a problem, but a group who’s character arcs enhance the overall plot and narrative.

That’s not what I said about “proper cast”, exactly. Honestly the best people to solve a problem are player characters (and always will be that way since we are the ones who are the active force in moving the story).

. . . again, I say “proper cast” hasn’t stopped some stories from being lauded as classics of unimpeachable quality. (The Hobbit, Romeo & Juliet . . . Star Trek . . .)

In regards to your later point, I completely agree. The story is rather rushed and hurtles through major plot points, but I would further dig myself into my fortified position by asserting that the rushed plot is directly linked to the bad casting.

No, I think the rushed plot is directly linked to the rushed development process which delivered unto us “Press 2 to Kill Zhaitan” because they ran out of time they budgeted themselves. Of course, I think that only lighting a fire under them at that point was going to get it to publishing, because it was dragging a bit. Worse than the 1.7 block of post-release Minecraft updates.

In Season 1, they deliberately designed the Biconics as smaller scale underdogs because they were trying to ensure players could participate in the season without finishing the personal story. As a result, we got a cast of characters that were designed for smaller scale adventures and more minor conflicts. By making the mistake of using this crew as the main cast for future seasons, they threw street level heroes into a grand adventure to save the world…and it doesn’t work.

It could work, though, and that’s where I really have hope. Street-level heroes have worked out before, especially in anthology settings – check out Thieves’ World (But . . . oh Dwayna don’t do it if you’re under 18 . . .) for an instance of it. Or a book in the old TSR D&D series called “Pool of Radiance”.

I think it’s not the characters which holds the LS back so much as it does how it progresses in small bites currently, and in each one only a few characters have the focus of the spotlight . . . and it’s an inconsistent amount of spotlight being shared about. (Which could fix Braham if they gave him something to star in again.)

Now they’re rushing to power up the Biconics to the point where they can stand toe to toe with world leaders on the epic stage, and the result has been hamfisted and ludicrous. Marjory has stopped being a detective and is now a front line shocktrooper wielding an artifact blade (take a drink if Jory and Belinda end up being the key to defeating the Shadow of the Dragon).

No bets on that, but I will note the Shadow of the Dragon is apparently a Champion of Mordremoth and thus . . . there could always be more. Like there is always a Shatterer.

Also, I confess I wouldn’t mind it if Belinda’s sword is a one-shot powerful artifact . . . so long as it’s one shot and then expended. I seriously expected from how things progressed Caladbolg was such a thing and now am sitting back going “huh”.

Kasmeer is no longer a down and out ex-noble, and is now the pinkie finger of the queen’s hand using her lie detecting super powers.

No, she’s now a down-and-broke noble who doesn’t have any money to hold up the image of being a noble. Try to keep a bigger picture in mind, my friend. She has a rank of sorts, but she has nothing to go with it. Like stripping Caudecus of being a Minister would not dent his ability to be dangerous – it would make him undoubtedly more so, but that’s another thing entirely.

Also, again, I support the idea of mesmer mind-magic being able to sort through things. I’ll note it’s not unheard of to do it without the aid of magic, and is pulled off in real life to great effect after all. I played through that scene a few times and it seems Kasmeer’s ability isn’t 100% accurate to sniff out an exact lie, but she can catch when someone is hiding something and can use that and reasoning to figure out what part stands out as “incorrect”.

Patrick Jane could make a fortune pretending to be a mesmer, it seems

1/2

Xenon.4537:

I think what spoj was getting at is that when you buy gems, you are telling Anet:

“I like this product as it currently is, thus I am giving you this money now in return for goods now.”

I actually think it tells ANet:

“People are buying gems, and their accounts are then purchasing Item #3354 with it. Clearly people want more things like Item #3354.”

Or

“People are buying gems and flipping it into gold more than using them on intended store purchases. Therefore, we might need to look about a way of getting these things out there other than gold.”

. . . also the “being invested” and “being an investor” stuff is just semantics being argued, and I’m sad I missed throwing my chips into that

Chrispy.5641:

She could have worded it better… is she opposed to giant walls of text instead of lore-dumps? because ‘lore-dumps’ are very necessary for any invented world to function. The opening scene of pretty much any Disney movie ever is essentially a lore-dump, just with song and moving pictures instead of giant walls of text.

It’s possible to have an invented world function without lore-dumps. Minecraft does

Though without being snarky, there are other games I’ve played where lore-dumps or “exposition bombs” aren’t necessary and don’t matter. What do I mean? Well think back for a moment and answer this:

How much did you really need to know about the Mushroom Kingdom? Or Hyrule? Zebes?

Good games and worlds can exist without pulling doorstopper books of lore out to validate themselves. Especially ones which can rely well on “Show Don’t Tell”, which can be few and far between . . . since that can be another tricky thing to pull off inside the frame of a video game properly.

I’ve never played the games, but I understand Silent Hill used to be good at this sort of thing.

Blackmoon.6837:

I do agree about the violence, sex etc. not being a requirement. Although I still think you have the wrong idea behind what makes a story adult.

I wouldn’t say it’s about what interests people, but moreover it’s the comprehension or lack thereof. That’s not to suggest that a story needs to be “super smart”, yet there is still a bar to be surpassed.

The way I see it, there are two core parts that make an adult story (or a good one at least). Firstly is indeed the level of complexity. Having to think rather than simply turning your brain off to enjoy the ride. This is the crux of why I believe mainstream “PG-13-esk” stories are degrading. Secondly, you’ve got emotions. With any rational & open-minded person (basically mature), dealing with less conventional material is what makes the enjoyment. So it’s not that “darker” themes are better, it’s that they allow for deep thought.

First, “esque” is what you want, not “esk”.

Second . . . I much agree but there is a thing as “too much complexity”, and “too emotionally connected”. A story can be pushed to be too complex for its own good. (See: Lost, Doctor Who (when it takes itself way too seriously, and Primer), or rely too much on emotional connections . . . which have no guarantee of forming with some of the audience. This is how some films/shows/stories get “this was GREAT” people having no idea why some people just can’t like it.

And again, it’s possible to provoke deep thought or interesting stories without dipping into the mature/darker themes.

Mavis.1463:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It is reasonable to bring up the bugged Collections, or the problems with how the Trait Masteries were adjusted, or how you don’t like the NPE. It’s reasonable to say how you don’t like the story, or the characters, or you think asura should blow themselves up in another Thaumanova-like explosion and be gone forever.

It’s not reasonable to request, or demand, the game be altered significantly . . . in less time than it takes a holiday time present to be delivered through FedEx.

FF14 begs to differ.
The game did a relaunch and now it’s one of the best MMOs in the market, with content patches being released every 3 months, and since most of my friends left and started playing that game, might as well.

I’m not sure how to interpret ANet’s silence, so I won’t even bother.

Yeah . . .

FF14 has a much bigger studio behind it to swing it, and from what I understand they burned all kinds of effort to make sure they could turn it around. And even then it didn’t happen over two weeks . . .

. . . which seems to be how people want GW2 to get fixed, from the tone of things around here. Sorry, that’s just less likely to happen than Gwen returning to the game. The “Realm Reborn” FF14 was something which worked, sure, and I actually play it from time to time. (It’s a pretty solid MMO, though it remains a bit focused on the expectancy of being the only thing you play or else.)

But it’s an exception of epic proportions and something I recall seeing comments to the effect of: “holy balls they pulled it off”.

It is reasonable to bring up the bugged Collections, or the problems with how the Trait Masteries were adjusted, or how you don’t like the NPE. It’s reasonable to say how you don’t like the story, or the characters, or you think asura should blow themselves up in another Thaumanova-like explosion and be gone forever.

It’s not reasonable to request, or demand, the game be altered significantly . . . in less time than it takes a holiday time present to be delivered through FedEx.

Obtena.7952:

Anyone that thinks that they should feel respected and listened to as a consumer has a big ego complex. Companies provide specific goods and services. If you don’t like a particular companies approach to providing or the actual goods or their service, they have competitors.

Being intune with the Voice of the Customer is not the same thing as placating complainers.

. . . I’m sorry, may I stop and review this statement?

Everyone deserves to feel respected, and everyone deserves to be respected so long as they are acting . . . respectful. Standing there screaming at someone with curses dropping every third word will . . . and should . . . preclude you from getting the respect of a company having to cater to your patronage.

There is a reason why I am an advocate of the original “The Customer should be treated as though they are right, even when they are not”. It’s not saying the Management has to bend over, it’s saying you do all reasonable actions to please a customer who is in your place of business.

The key word being “reasonable”.

BilboBaggins.5620:

If I had to pick an example of good television storytelling I’d have to go with a show that was cancelled before the end of it’s first season; Firefly!

The reason Firefly worked was how short it was, I think. If we had drawn more time out of it, we might have seen more mediocre and predictability. It probably would have been better structured as a miniseries of 10 episodes with the followup movie.

I’ll go one better, though, and point out another one which was pretty good and had wonderful material? Stargate SG-1. (Your mileage may vary on the later seasons, but I found them tolerably decent to watch.)

Xenon.4537:

Never seen Fringe lol. But what I’m getting at is this:

GoT style:
1. Exposition
2. Rising action
3. Climax
4. Falling action
(you know… like normal friggin storytelling…)

Yeah . . . no. It doesn’t flow like that, with no “plot twists” in there. There are twists, at least three of them which caught people so off guard they swore off GoT forever (and still came back for the next season). I’m not spoiling them though.

There were plot twists in the books and in the show, and the casting of Sean Bean as Ned Stark was criminally giving away one of the things from the first book which was surprising.

Lost style:
1. Exposition
2. Plot twist
3. Climax
4. Cliff hangar
5. Plot twist
6. Plot twist
7. Rising action
8. Plot twist
9. Cliff hangar

I’d argue with this but that’d be nitpicking. It wasn’t so much “plot twists” as “answer something in a way to leave two more questions”. Like dealing with a hydra, cutting one off just makes more come out to play. It got better after they got served a notice of “three more seasons and that’s it” because then they had an end timeframe to shoot for.

I get what you’re saying but . . . Lost isn’t the king of that sort of thing. Daytime TV (“soap operas”) are the king of it, reigning forever. The only one I halfway liked when I could catch it in syndication was “Dark Shadows” . . . even then it was a lot of . . . ugh . . .

A good story has a beginning, middle, and end. And when you get to the end, you start a NEW story. You don’t try to prolong the first story ad nauseam. That’s called being a hack. Hacks don’t know how to write new material. They use plot twists the same way Michael Bay uses special effects. I’m not saying we will never reach Mordremoth, but the journey there doesn’t need to be a convoluted pile of spaghetti noodles.

. . . ehhh, being a hack is a lot more than just dragging out the story as long as you can. Being a hack involves a lot of other Sins of Writing foremost, because even good writers have pushed stories and characters through longer and longer things. (Note, not ‘great writers’ but ‘good ones’ . . .)

George R.R. Martin is exactly like that, for as good as the writing is . . . somewhere it starts feeling like it’s being stretched and dragged out for the sake of filling a book. Not as bad as old R. Jordan, but there’s still plenty of sense the guy is lost in his worldbuilding mind rather than his plotting mind.

Torsailr.8456:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Xenon.4537:

I just want the story to be told more like Game of Thrones and less like Lost…

I’d rather it be more like Fringe, honestly.

. . . what? I can see Walter as an asura.

OMG, no! I forbid this from happening. Walter as an asura would….no. Just no. This post needs burning before the observers see it and tweak the devs to make it happen.

Fine, I will settle for Peter reincarnated as a human engineer.

RoseofGilead.8907:

BilboBaggins.5620:

Blackmoon.6837:

I just hope there’s more concern for serious and adult storytelling. Her Disney background is leaving me rather skeptical.

The fact that she’s from Disney doesn’t worry me, but this quote from the interview does;
“The thing about television is that television from the get-go assumes that story is the most important thing,” Hoyer said. “And because of that, they’ve gotten really good at telling stories”

Storytelling on television is quite anemic, Two and a half Men anyone?!

Using a sitcom as an example isn’t the best thing. :p Carnivale, The Wire, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones (even though it’s based on actual novels, it’s also got kitten good screenwriters and tells the story in its own way), etc. Those are good examples of how TV can tell good stories and be very good at it.

Carnivale wasn’t . . . all that good. See, it suffered a problem like Lost in there being questions but answers coming very slowly. And yes, I have both boxed sets because I loved rewatching it more than watching it.

I never saw The Wire or Breaking Bad, OR The Walking Dead (I have a high aversion to zombie fiction). I won’t judge them but from all I hear they were excellent drama series. Really what you have to look for is who’s involved – there are a few names you should pay attention to.

(Like knowing if you see Berman or Braga near the writing or production credits, you should keep booze handy.)

But for instance: love him or hate him, Joss Whedon can do well with his characters and actors. You might not like all his work (I couldn’t stand Buffy very much) but some of it is amazingly done (what little we got of Firefly, and Avengers). And J.J Abrams will back a lot of fun things to see if they hit or miss – uneven results but it’s rarely not worth the time.

BilboBaggins.5620:

I’ve played both games as well, was playing GW1 from the beginning, and I have to disagree with you. I believe GW1 storylines are head-and-shoulders above anything we’ve gotten in GW2. I think many could argue the merits of both games and there’ll never be a clear winner. It probably just boils down to personal preference. I love lore!

Ehh, I don’t see it as “head and shoulders” above GW2. There are parts which are good, certainly, and we probably would agree on them. But go back and replay Prophecies and tell me it wasn’t a sad . . . sad example like the Personal Story is in GW2. I mean, sure, there’s potential but in both cases it’s lost in the mess.

BilboBaggins.5620:

Blackmoon.6837:

I just hope there’s more concern for serious and adult storytelling. Her Disney background is leaving me rather skeptical.

The fact that she’s from Disney doesn’t worry me, but this quote from the interview does;
“The thing about television is that television from the get-go assumes that story is the most important thing,” Hoyer said. “And because of that, they’ve gotten really good at telling stories”

Storytelling on television is quite anemic, Two and a half Men anyone?!

In rebuttal: Castle, The Mentalist, Person of Interest, Grimm, Blue Bloods, Gracepoint. (You could add Doctor Who in there too, but the writing is so uneven on that show from episode to episode I hesitate to call it “awesome” . . . except Blink. Blink was awesome.)

That’s all basic, by the way. If you go to cable you can add in The Walking Dead. If you go premium, Boardwalk Empire, Game of Thrones, and The Newsroom.

It’s not anemic all across the board, it’s just really pushed aside for reality TV and trying to start up sitcoms people want to see instead of tuning out after half a season. Or stranded on cable where you have to pay for it.

Xenon.4537:

I just want the story to be told more like Game of Thrones and less like Lost…

I’d rather it be more like Fringe, honestly.

. . . what? I can see Walter as an asura.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mmm, you see it that way? Huh. Interesting . . . that’s not what I see out of that scene, after stopping to think about it from what we know of norn culture instead of . . . you know, applying modern human sensibilities and morals.

The thing is that, to me, Braham isn’t really typical of norn culture. He’s very much a model of Wolf’s teaching of close knit communities. And his disdain for Eir has been brewing for years. Such things do not come to understandings after one decent talk – even ignoring human sensibilities and morals.

But have they come to understandings, or is he just not being openly hostile about her being brought up anymore?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

No, Canach had Lost Shores as well, and a short story on the blog. (A practice I’m somewhat glad is done.) Braham wasn’t present for around half of the first season all told, while Canach . . . well, wastefully sat in a jail cell because there wasn’t enough real estate to add in myriad side-threads of story.

Braham was in-game, however, and had his own short story too, lest you forget.

I guess I did forget . . . I looked it up and apparently it was shorter than Canach’s which is why I forgot about it.

Unlike Canach, he was never removed from the game. He was always to be found somewhere – with the possible exception of Tequatl Rising and Blood and Madness Mk I. That’s my point.

I thought Canach was in the jail cell at Fort Marriner, and just wouldn’t talk with anyone.

Which was done for Secret of Southsun until Queen’s Jubilee, where you can see new dialogues and scenes between Braham and Cragstead folks, or Rox and Frostbite and other Nolan Hatchery folks. After Last Stand at Southsun, many of the refugees you could have helped during Flame and Frost suddenly wound up in Braham and Rox’s instances, with dialogue relating to whether or not you helped them.

I agree that if they want a true Living World rather than a continuous set of DLCs, that’s what they need alongside the main plot. But it seems their LW workforce has reduced in size…?

I dunno, it seemed after the Jubilee many of the plot threads got lost/dropped/swept aside to focus on the story about Scarlet’s doings. Which wouldn’t have been bad if they had also done a full workup of that at the time . . . instead of dripping in details after the fact.

And I know this isn’t easy — oh Six Gods I know that. I ran a tabletop campaign which had to deal with a central plot and one or two plots for each character (one major, one minor). The paperwork for keeping track of it took up half a notebook before I finished setting the last round of details for when we finally get to finish it off.

I’ll have to reply later, as I have a long shift ahead of me at work but . . .

I just don’t see the “male character problem” as a looming problem that has to be solved. I see worse things which need fixing before we get talking about that. Primarily how it seemed the pacing has been way off for most of the PS/LW offerings, and how the latter laser-focuses on what the current issue is rather than having broader implications.

Second to that, the other problem is primarily a plot one rather than character one. Notably in how much seems to rely on ignorance or apathy about things in order to get things in motion. Especially the case with Scarlet before, and Modremoth now.

Merus.9475:

I think Tobias has the right of it, here, despite dropping trope names as if that’s the only thing that’s important about a story. GW1’s storytelling style is fairly perfunctory, and only towards Nightfall does it get to a point where characters are sympathetic and have personality, and a story that you can follow over a long period.

Trope names make it easy to illustrate, a shorthand for those who know them. They’re not the only thing important but they do shortcut having to explain things further. It’s like not needing to explain things such as “topdeck” or “mill” for MTG, “gut-shot straight” for poker, or “bunker” for players here

The reason I bring this up is that, in the interview, Leah mentions the possibilities of storytelling in games, and it doesn’t seem like she’s thinking much about the potential of telling stories through gameplay.

Because it’s a harder target to hit properly, and if your players don’t like the gameplay then storytelling through it falls flat . . . or they never get far enough for it to make sense.

And, honestly, some of the better stories told through gameplay I’ve seen have been entirely unintentional by the designers and handled by players. Boatmurdered, for instance.

Labjax.2465:

Notice how in some story-based games, they work around this by giving you various side missions that you can do to explore a character or plot further. For example, in Knights of the Old Republic, talking to the various characters of your crew as you complete parts of the game would reveal more about who they are and occasionally lead to a side mission about something from their past.

You mean Neverwinter Nights, right? (Note: this is a Bioware staple to their games, and another company which did good with it was Black Isle Studios.)

Aedelric.1287:

How is it okay for him to list things from before living world and season 2 but I am not? Seriously is a double standard going on here, some peoples passion seem to be getting the better of them.

Oh, that’s not the standard, the standard is set by you making your own words of “and this is from season 2” when they were all started from season one or earlier. Or had no roles in season 2 (like Kiel).

End of the day I have a right to want a new male lead, just like anyone else has a right to want whatever it is they like. Why nitpick and complain about other peoples likes/dislikes, go do something constructive instead.

I see it as constructive to get people to do better with their arguments rather than formulate something with holes big enough to herd dolyaks through

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Not that I really care about your argument points (either side), but come on, at least read what you’re responding to.

Hmm.

Aedelric.1287:

Off the top of my head, Ellen Kiel, Belinda Delaqua, Caithe, Avatar of the Tree, Eir, Countess Anise, Ela Makkay, Zojja and that is only from season two I am sure I could name many more if I included season one characters like you did.

Yup. I read it.

Donari.5237:

Tobias is more on the right path here to my way of thinking. What novels draw me in the most? The ones with fully realized worlds, with complexity of interaction. Peter Hamilton, Lois Bujold, S.M. Stirling, they all have a gift at making worlds where while there may be central characters, the whole world keeps on going on its own. They delve into the economics, the demographics, the politics, all without losing any impetus of action.

Holy crap, someone else who knows who Lord Lieutenant Miles Vorkosigan is.

DeceiverX.8361:

I don’t think “Adult” is the right word for the topic OP is trying to portray. I’d say that “Substantial” is a better word.

You look at the Order of Whispers storyline up through the assault on Claw Island (not to give away any spoilers) and cast of characters, and it feels excellently done. What happens there (although if one really thinks about it, is not necessary at all) is frankly the only time in the story of GW2 where I genuinely felt attached, engaged, and as though a particular character close to the PC had a genuine story which kept me engaged and attached to said NPC.

I agree – that is the reason most people like Tybalt despite him being . . . on long reflection, a rather bad character. (People discussing in other topics about Braham being an idiot? Tybalt was there first, but he was more lovable.) The setup and the flow really hid that the first time through . . . and he has the benefit of having a real excuse as to why he doesn’t flee Claw Island – he’s missing part of a leg.

(I still think as an engineer he could have rigged explosives up to help. I would have written that step, honestly, to defend Tybalt as he sets a charge . . . let him die on the boat because the corruption got to him, or something. It’s better than all three of the mentors having the same point they all die in. Vary them for Dwayna’s sake, all of them aren’t the same character with the same abilities to call upon so you should have played to their characters! Forgal holds the line against impossible odds and goes out like a bad-kitty and nobody comes close to the boat as it escapes. Tybalt is talked out of a blaze of glorious explosives but has to die – but he can still reflect he went out with success and not another botch on his record. Sieran tries to use sylvari influence to set up brambles on the gate and run to the ship before the champion pounces over the wall to get between the ship and her and you can only watch as the ship leaves and she tries fighting it. Six GODS I with Claw Island was better handled.)

Ahem.

Blackmoon.6837:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Adult concepts do not necessarily make a story “better” just for having them.

Relative to saying “death doesn’t make a story good”. Like I said, that’s not what I’m suggesting. The problem is that GW2 already has adult concepts. They simply haven’t implemented them correctly or at least in a meaningful way.

Where in my post did I suggest otherwise? I just pointed out they need to pick two tools in particular and suddenly things get much . . . much better. Before needing to rely on “going dark”, there’s a better way. There were children shows which were very . . . VERY good at storytelling without needing to dip too deeply into what people nowadays think of as “adult” work. (Probably should change the title to “mature storytelling” since it doesn’t matter what age you’re at – child or adult, good storytelling is good storytelling.)

How do you know what I mean? The Hobbit was a repurposed bedtime story.

I’ll even go one better and fish it up: Sleeping Beauty . . . perhaps one of the best old Disney animated series. (Also a better dragon fight than Zhaitan. Slightly.)

Adult concepts do not necessarily make a story “better” just for having them.

Two big concepts which are not relegated to “adult concepts” would make the story better for having them though:

1. Worldbuilding. There is a whole world to Tyria, and the problem is how the writing seems to always focus like a laser pointer on one particular aspect. To the exclusion of everything else. While the fight against the Mordrem is going on, no other plots or events are in motion elsewhere. Every other aspect of Tyria is “on hold” through this crisis, except when it’s needed to further the story going on around the Mordrem. This isn’t good and it doesn’t foster the idea of the world as a “living entity” which proceeds without the players’ presence.

2. Consequences. Not necessarily death, but actions and developments need to have an impact on characters and locations rather than being shrugged off or handled in a simple one-note matter. You chose Belinda’s death, so I’ll run with that. Aside from Marjory’s grief in the scene and Kasmeer wishing she could help, nobody seems to care. We should see the family at a monument or a tombstone, have a chance to see others she knew make themselves known and go “we’re going to miss her”. She was a two-bit excuse for shoving pathos onto the Kas/Jory pair, and remains that way until she starts having more to her than what happened.

kitten .9460:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

kitten .9460:

GW1 actually has cutscenes with talking and action, and ‘loredumps’ when talking to NPCs.

She is basically saying they don’t want that in GW2 … absolutely terrible. GW1 story and representation is 10x superior to GW2.

Hehe. No.

Infodumps forced into conversation are a terrible way to do exposition.

Forced? Did you play GW1? Obviously not.

Oh, really, you should know better than to throw that around. I played it, I beat it, and if I had an ounce of PvP skill I probably would have gotten God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals before I stopped. Instead I chased the grindy titles (which by the way, is fun to reference when people talk about how there wasn’t any grind in the games) . . . and gave up on those. But regardless!

Yes. Forced into conversation, as in an unnatural way of placing the information through dialogue which isn’t normal. Magister Ela Makkay’s little script in “The Origins of Madness” to recap Season One? That’s exactly one example, but in Guild Wars 1 it had its ‘loredumps’ in places.

It also had an incredibly poor cliche storm of a campaign (Prophecies), a story which had wasteful infighting as its central theme and attraction (Factions), and the mother of all Arc Welding attempts (Nightfall). Oh, and Poorly Disguised Pilot (Eye of the North, Beyond).

GW1 wasn’t better than GW2 in terms of story, it just seemed like it due to the stages being smaller and the presentation being more . . . personal and scripted, via the ability to set up Missions as they do. But oh, Lyssa save me, I enjoyed it because it at least grew better with the pacing problems Prophecies had. Two years later Nightfall had the pacing much better.

Hey, what do you know, two years later for GW2 and Living Story Season Two has the pacing mostly improved over the previous two bits. It’s like deja vu.

Aedelric.1287:

lordkrall.7241:

Are they?

Magnus, Evon. Rytlock, Logan, Canach, Master of Peace and Aerin are all male and indeed rather important and relevant.

Canach is just as important and present (if not more) as multiple of the female characters people count, so why shouldn’t we count him?

Yes.

Off the top of my head, Ellen Kiel, Belinda Delaqua, Caithe, Avatar of the Tree, Eir, Countess Anise, Ela Makkay, Zojja and that is only from season two. I am sure I could name many more if I included season one characters like you did.

Keep in mind I am not counting the many other smaller voiced roles like soldier and such, which are often female. But at the end of the day none of this is really important, the real issue is the major characters and how the males are often portrayed as idiots or incompetent.

Arena Net could really do with making a new major male character that is useful and not a complete moron, the lack of relatable or likable male leads is disappointing.

Ooh, you stacked the count by adding in characters who existed before the Living World launched, when the person you replied to avoided doing so. Foul! Yellow card.

Edit:

I just checked. Magister Ela Makkay was in Season One, twice. Once, though, as a purely infodump character. Belinda began in the epilogue instance of Season One. Ellen Kiel didn’t take part in events at all in Season Two, so she is a pure Season One character you pulled in.

Countess Anise, Avatar of the Tree, Eir, Caithe, and Zojja were all in the Personal Story at various points for various races.

So really your list for season two comes down to . . . nobody.

kitten .9460:

GW1 actually has cutscenes with talking and action, and ‘loredumps’ when talking to NPCs.

She is basically saying they don’t want that in GW2 … absolutely terrible. GW1 story and representation is 10x superior to GW2.

Hehe. No.

Infodumps forced into conversation are a terrible way to do exposition.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Eirdyne.9843:

Scarlet is a genius who suicides, knowingly?

You do realize she was killed, not commited suicide, right? Thus a good chunk of your argument is moot.

“Forget it, they’re rolling.”

Filaha.1678:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m old enough to predate the best of Michael Jackson’s career. And Nintendo.

. . . you figure it out

You’re 126 years old?

The secret is time travel.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I doubt I would hold any care about this topic if Episode 3 didn’t just brush off Braham’s issues with Eir. Just suddenly see her fighting and “wow yeah I forgive her for leaving me and my dad when I was just a baby.” Because there is any relation between the two.

Mmm, you see it that way? Huh. Interesting . . . that’s not what I see out of that scene, after stopping to think about it from what we know of norn culture instead of . . . you know, applying modern human sensibilities and morals.

But where Braham’s falling short for being a main character, Canach is picking up. I just wish there were more such situations.

He’s not getting enough time in comparison.

Canach had more time than Braham devoted to his story, so yeah, that’s a given.

Not really, actually. While Canach was first introduced, he was gone for most of the time that Braham was not. From Last Stand at Southsun until Edge of the Mists, Canach was MIA – Braham, however, continued getting little snippet updates (like Olivia crushing his poor heart) between Flame and Frost:Retribution and Queen’s Jubilee.

No, Canach had Lost Shores as well, and a short story on the blog. (A practice I’m somewhat glad is done.) Braham wasn’t present for around half of the first season all told, while Canach . . . well, wastefully sat in a jail cell because there wasn’t enough real estate to add in myriad side-threads of story.

Seriously, that’s my #1 point to leave for advice on making this “Living World” feel alive – get multiple threads going at the same time to give the appearance other places in the world are moving forward while the Pact is in the Silverwastes. It’s been sadly negligent to not be having regular updates on Lion’s Arch while we’ve been in the Maguuma Wastes.

I’m old enough to predate the best of Michael Jackson’s career. And Nintendo.

. . . you figure it out

Fernling.1729:

I don’t think she worked with Sleeping beauty, Aladdin or Old Yeller.

Her disney background, not disney itself.

Well, see, since the demeaning and belittling started with a lack of common sense, why did you have to go bring some into it?

Sheesh. This is the internet, common sense has no place here. Now hold my soda, I’ve got some Counter Monkey to watch.

RoseofGilead.8907:

Old Yeller.

Can we go for the trifecta? I think we can.

The Ending to Toy Story 3

“My spoon is too big.”

Blackmoon.6837:

I just hope there’s more concern for serious and adult storytelling. Her Disney background is leaving me rather skeptical.

Sleeping Beauty says hello for adult storytelling. Likewise, “Aladdin”, despite having ol Robin Williams . . . or how about other things, like Pete’s Dragon? (Hey, child slavery! >thumbsup<) Or Black Hole?

I know they’re synonymous with “lighter and softer” but seriously . . . Disney had enough to hit people hard. Want proof? I’m about to say something, so trigger warning for an entire generation:

Bambi’s Mother.

Ayane Hajinmon.9165:

Anyone remember Explorer Amoxtli, Explorer Savio, and Explorer Kitabu? They are Priory members. One a hylek the other two are human. They were in Dry Top the last time I remember. I couldn’t find them in Dry Top anymore. Where did they go?

They went home. Of course, by “home” I mean they headed east and overshot into the Crystal Desert.

narwhalsbend.7059:

A – He’s in his teen years for a norn, meaning . . . yes, he is a whiny immature sod by the virtue of every other teenager being that way.

B – He’s not special for being Eir’s son, he’s special because he was the only norn who decided to act back in Frost and Flame. Also because he thinks that rooster mohawk-wannabe is cool.

C – I suspect there’s more to working with him than “big, dumb, hits things”. But it’s really hard to figure it out since the focus isn’t on him as much as it is Taimi, Kas/Jory, Mordremoth, et cetera.

Woodsman Silencio.9361:

Let me reply on behalf of Braham to all these deep thoughts in the previous posts:

uh-huh

How is that for depth? Braham is a sponge soaking up knowledge meanwhile providing protection to his friends. He wil have his day.

Assuming we can have more than one story thread of consequence advanced per chapter . . . seriously, there needs to be more concurrent events taking place over these updates Even if it’s just dialogue or conversations elsewhere to advance things which aren’t connected to the main plot.

I’ll even take some people in Lion’s Arch saying Tixx is coming back soon.

draxynnic.3719:

More significantly, you mention Simon as having done little of consequence until a significant part of the way through Dragonbone Chair… but to put that into context, that’s the first book, of four if you get the paperback editions.

It’s still a significant chunk of story. Especially considering the thing he does of consequence two thirds of the way in is . . . well, stay alive and hold onto a Plot Trinket.
The first thing he does we could consider “heroic” in terms of discussing the story is literally in the last three chapters of the book. (I’m not spoiling it.)

I love the book, and I love the character. But if you start examining it the same people look at characters elsewhere? He’s just not that impressive a hero until very late in the story, by the measuring stick used on others. He is, for all intents and purposes, someone ordinary who is thrown into adventure.

It’s also interesting that you mention Miriamele, since as I recall one of the things that comes up in her thought-track is that she cannot conceive that Simon could possibly be behind the deeds attributed to Snowlock.

. . . which is why I mentioned some posts ago it’d be fun if that happened with Olivia coming across Braham during some downtime between LS2 and LS3 in Lion’s Arch.

In Braham’s case… it will soon be two years since his introduction. We’re also in Season 2, and the second half therof – while we don’t know how many seasons there are intended to be, this could be seen as book 2 of a series. Imagine if Simon had still been the calf-headed kitchen boy that he started out as beyond the halfway point of Stone of Farewell – that’s essentially what Braham is looking like.

Yes, but . . . Simon still was that way. It was apparent in a conversation where he decided to angst over realizing everyone was dying around him and it wasn’t fair. Also, I think more time passed between Simon’s two points than Braham’s two points . . . it’s hard to say since I haven’t come across a hard timeline of when things happened in GW2’s LW.

Now, having an agenda doesn’t need to mean that he develops his own pathos. It could also be that he starts taking an active role in some of the others’s stories rather than simply tagging along as a meatshield with mommy issues (which, come to think on it, is another gender-flipped cliche).

He does take an active role – as an anchor to keep Taimi grounded.

For instance, we could see Braham getting into Rytlock’s face about how he’s been treating Rox (something the PC has never had a chance to do… many of my characters are actually feeling personally insulted about Rytlock’s comments about how Scarlet might still be out there because Rox held back to provide urgent medical attention) or coming up with some idea to make the people who stole Kasmeer’s inheritance uncomfortable. Stuff which could still be concentrating on looking after his pack, but which doesn’t involve just following the herd all the time.

I don’t know about you, my character did get to call out Rytlock about it just before he disappeared into Barradin’s tomb. Rytlock brushed it off as “tough love for a good subordinate”.

But as of the last part I did (and have had time to do), Braham was more interested in being a shield for Taimi (and she needs it).

draxynnic.3719:

Not familiar with the others, and it’s probably about time I reread MST – it’s been a while. I’ll have to see if my copies of To Green Angel Tower are accessible.

That said, Simon does have agency in MST pretty much from the start. He might spend a lot of the story following the plans of others, but it’s very clear that he has his own aims and ideals that are causing him to continue maintaining the alliances he does. Many of those are relatively humble for much of the book (until you realise the ramifications, which IIRC he wasn’t aware of – trying to avoid dropping spoilers here); he’s not simply ‘the guy who helps others to do their things’. He’s helping his allies because he sees that as the best way to achieve his own goals.

Now, it probably helps here that Simon is a viewpoint character and thus that we can see what he’s thinking when, if he’d been a non-viewpoint character like Braham, we might not have seen that. At the moment, though, we don’t really see much agency from Braham apart from the apparent hope that if he hangs around enough that some of the glory accrued by others will rub off on him.

This may be a gross misrepresentation of his actual character… but if so, we’re not seeing it.

See, I reread the trilogy usually every year before I wound up putting them in a storage box when moving and now can’t locate which “Books” box they wound up in. So . . . you’re half right about Simon but the big thing is he is the viewpoint character. And he’s still a young moron until The Call Finds Where He Lives and he winds up on the run. He’s a viewpoint character so we can see inside his head . . . and most of the early character is the kind of person Braham comes off as to a lot of people apparently. He doesn’t do much of consequence (or of obvious consequence) until about halfway to two thirds of the way through “The Dragonbone Chair” and ostensibly he winds up making things worse more often than he does better. The ability to see inside his head . . . well, when the viewpoint in the third book is Miriamele? You get to see how others see Simon, when we aren’t privy to what’s in his head.

Though as I said . . . Taran is perhaps closer to how Braham is, especially before the third book of the Prydain Chronicles. Mostly useless unless a Plot Trinket is in his hands, and only begins to realize it when he starts seeing people dying around him. (Also a good read and I think every library has a copy of these books somewhere in their Young Fantasy area.)

As for the rest of the matter . . . I’d like to point out the ladies of the Biconics aren’t exempt from problems either. If anything, they’ve got it worse with the little romance going on and Rox’s distractions with Stone Warband. Braham may be the simplest just to prevent the entire group from having so many complexes going on they fold under pressure like Destiny’s Edge after Snaff became lunch.

(. . . what do you mean ‘too soon’?)

RiverSong.5067:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

No, there’s really not. There’s just not that many Exotics of value against the list . . . complete list . . . of ones which are “worthless” on the market.

How DARE you make sense on the internets?

Someone has to. I mean, otherwise it’s not worth defending as a communications network if all it has is anime torrent sites and people screaming about which pony is the best.

(It’s still Binky.)

No, there’s really not. There’s just not that many Exotics of value against the list . . . complete list . . . of ones which are “worthless” on the market.

leman.7682:

lordkrall.7241:

People always seems to remember the “good old Guild Wars 1 days” completely different than people actually talked about them back during those times.

Which doesn’t change the fact that the overall quality of story/writing has deteriorated significantly.

I don’t think so, I think it’s just readily more apparent as we have:

- More players who got exposed to it.
- Less other diversions from the PvE story.
- More efforts to work story into a persistent path rather than adding stale, stable experiences.

The writing isn’t “worse” so much as the LW tends to show all the cracks due to it being in motion and trying to progress instead of being “here’s Sorrow’s Furnace, don’t mind how you never heard of it”, or “here’s 10 dungeons which have almost no bearing on the story of Eye of the North at all, just go have fun and score loot”.

Or even worse “here are three Realms of the Gods, check out how they’re mostly challenges to be overcome with little context at all with each other Realm . . . or each region within the Realms themselves”.

The big difference was GW1 could be excused for its story problems by basically being another form of the base Diablo “hack, slash, and loot” game with twists to keep it from inflating too much into chasing the high stat loot. Instead you chase the really neat art with 1% or less drop rates.

Zietlogik.6208:

All of this info has been available shorty after the update went live…and they never batted an eye.

Now months later they are finally looking into it? and as incing on the cake we have Gaile giving us what is essentially an “have you tried turning it off, then back on again?” post….

It is so, so hard to find you guys credible anymore.

. . . bear in mind, Gaile is probably the most proactive person I know of with red name privileges who actually acts and goes to deal with things. Barely edging out Chris.

So if anyone was going to notice it and go knock on some doors to get movement or answers, it’s those two. And Chris has other foci than these issues – this is now Gaile’s job to take care of.

Shriketalon.1937:

And yet here you are, with your own thoughts and opinions, your own insights and ideas, enjoying a hobby completely separate from your main vocation. You have depth, just like every other human being, nuances and history that make you a unique individual.

You are special, Tobias! I believe in you!

Heh. Sorry, I’m not all that special a person . . .

But at the same time, as is mentioned above about the philosophical points – just because I have insights, ideas, bias, and a hobby . . . that’s not who I am. So what defines a person or a character? The question isn’t a light rhetorical jab at you, it’s something to ponder.

And I repeat: It strikes me Braham is not meant to be someone who is your simple hero we see in video games or fiction all the time. He’s young, and what he knew he wanted turned out to not be so simple. He’ll figure it out eventually and be a better person for it.

The What is simple. A good story needs a proper cast to move smoothly, and a good character needs a relevant tale to grow and change.

A good story doesn’t need a proper cast, it just makes it neat and simple. The classics of fantasy literature are full of “improper” handlings of characters. I’ll level the spotlight right at the easiest, biggest elephant in the room: Lord of the Rings, Merry, Pippin, Legolas, and Gimli. For most of the first book, the two hobbits are almost . . . invisible, they don’t have any roles and they barely have characters. Legolas and Gimli likewise barely have characterization before Helm’s Deep . . . and have less after. (In fact, they got more in the films than they did in the books.)

(And that is the least of the awkward bits of the story which don’t serve the core of the tale. But that’s another forum entirely.)

Season 2 has incredibly awkward moments as a direct result of relying on irrelevant characters.

Yeah, and I have a ton of issues with the general handling of things . . . the story is nicer and tighter but no less rushed than the Personal Story was in getting through the necessary Plot Hoops. There’s not enough time spent actually developing things, just making them so and rushing to the next point. And from what I hear about the last two parts it’s still happening.

You can’t do that and expect players/readers/viewers to keep up and suspend disbelief.

You say that Braham has plenty of potential, and that you see the trails of his future heroism? Why doesn’t it bother you that he hasn’t had a character arc in an entire year’s time?

Because it’s the only thing in the LW which has any scent of being slow-played and I’m not going to start trying to push them into rushing it like they are the rest of the goshdarned story.

Of course I’m a big fan of slow-played stories or development.

Again, I’m going to reference the three characters above. I especially am going to reference Taran now – and if you haven’t looked it up you really really should. Taran of Caer Dallben is exactly how Braham comes off – starting off brash and boisterous about how they’re going to be totally awesome and completely failing the first few times they try to make it happen. And eventually, they stop worrying about it and just . . . become.

Miles Vorkosigan is an odder example, but even he has an extremely slow played increase in maturity over several books. Also “hero” is so . . . so debatable when referencing him.

Lastly Simon Snowlock doesn’t really grow up until the end of the books. By the way? Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn really should be required reading for someone who wants to look at fantasy fiction.

Of all the biconics, Braham’s story has either been cut short or lacked all kinds of progress.

As I keep saying, it seems to me that’s designed to be part of the character – he’s not the awesome hero he thought he would be just by virtue of choosing to act. Along the way he’s going to learn you don’t need to try to be a hero. You just are one.

Canach has more of a personal story told than Braham, and he isn’t a main character.

Canach had more time than Braham devoted to his story, so yeah, that’s a given.

Basically, Shriketalon is saying but yet not saying is that even supporting characters have a story to tell their own – even if it’s nothing but assisting others all their life, that itself is a story for themselves. This does happen – such characters exist only to balance out the roles of the more fleshed out characters (such as comedic relief).

But not every story has to be told, because most just aren’t that interesting. I expect the life and times of Tybalt Leftpaw were really dull before we ran into him, and after he got injured so severely. I expect the stories Zojja could tell us about her time in laboratories before she and Snaff set out into the world are likewise pretty dull . . . well, if you’re not an asura egghead.

And some stories can’t be made interesting being told – they need to be watched and seen to become something great. I seriously recommend you check out the trio I mentioned before, but if you need someone more mainstream? Neville Longbottom. Total comic relief in the early books, and somewhere around book five he finds out he’s not useless (and we do too).

Deim Hunir.8503:

Or you’re just being a master pupetteer and wording it nicely, but really there’s a hidden agenda behind your actions that goes beyond other’s having a better life OR it’s temporary and you won’t be able to keep up with just doing that eternally, eventually you’ll feel empty.

Sort of. It’s called “enlightened self-interest”. By improving other peoples’ lot in life, you make it more likely they will care about yours. Even if it fails to achieve that, you’ve still made a positive mark on something. It’s more complicated than that, naturally, and it could go on for a long time trying to get to the heart of it and filling up pages but let’s sum it up this way:

“Do unto others as you would have done unto you” meets “the greatest thing you can give someone is not a thing, it is a sincere effort to improve their lot”.

2/2

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I think the core of the problem isn’t “Braham has no agency.” Or however you’d like to phrase that.

Possibly he’s not supposed to have it, he is a very young person whose first attempt to pursue something ended pretty badly for him. And the second time he was hoping to get a good tall tale out of it ended with a shattered leg.

What you have is, really, a teen male getting to have to deal with the real world and how legends are born . . . really . . . rather than “my will makes it happen because I am the hero”. It’s valuable and should be an anvil dropped on him (and us) repeatedly.

The issue is: “Important male characters in the Living World story have no agency." Braham is just prime victim #1.

. . . I had a recent conversation with someone about gender in regards to characters and how it’s unfair to use it as a handle with which to start drama/controversies. The whole of this gender thing in the Living World? Yeah, it has begun to feel a lot like people need to prop something together on gender inequalities. At best, they’re overanalyzing, at worst they’re seeing agendas which aren’t subtle by their claim and yet lack overt signs.

But where you have all characters of a specific gender having that, but no character of the other gender having that. That is where the issue is.

There’s so many wrong turns this usually takes – replace “specific gender” with “specific race” and you get a treasure trove of other obligatory problems which “need to be examined”. Some of them have some value (why is it almost always asuran tech which people fall back on to provide the deus ex machina?) and some others are expected from the theme of the current climate (humans don’t have much in the world beyond their little corner of Queensdale).

I’m sorry, but there are more problems going on than whether or not male characters have agency or presence. (Frankly, the ones they could give it to currently would burn up the forums all over again since we’re talking of one potential being Trahearne who seems universally despised.) More to the point is needing to refine this hyper-focus of the LW seasons and allow for things to be included which aren’t connected to the main plotline and can develop the world outside of the nugget of story.

Currently, Braham lacks a personal story – he has ever since he left Cragstead. Maybe if Olivia was brought back and that relationship developed (the irony that she left him for a traveling merchant), or Eir was killed and we see how Braham copes with that (seeing him rise into his own place rather than his current state of just drifting aside heroes looking for his big chance for his legend), this would change.

I’m bolding this not because it’s yelling but it’s an important thing.

We don’t need more deaths of developed characters, or secondary characters, in order to drop pathos on underdeveloped characters to force them into a role.

We do need to perhaps see some closure, even if it’s just Braham running into her and giving her the cold shoulder to show he moved on. “Oh, hi Olivia . . . pining for you? Not anymore. Good to see you’re well but I’ve got to run.” Realizing his first crush was a poor place to push his affections, realizing he has to not look back and instead focus ahead, and he has to keep focused or something else can go wrong . . . and maybe this time it won’t be him being hurt, or his friends won’t be as lucky as he was to survive it

1/2

Deim Hunir.8503:

I think what Shriketalon ment to say is that there are no people that solely exist in this manner, correct me if I am wrong.

And again, that is exactly what my life has been – existing for the sole purpose of making sure other people have an easier time of things.

Looking at them only like that is reductive and unrealistic ultimately.

Except, again, we’re talking about a real person. It can be proven with enough evidence if I had to sit in a court of law, honestly.

Ultimately everyone strives for something and depending from which angle you look at it the importance of the people in the story varies greatly.
It remains highly subjective in the end.

I’m sure it does, but my point remains – there do exist people for whom there is only the function of making sure other people have things go smoothly as part of their lives/careers.

All this aside, it’s still not how I see Braham’s existence. As I said, he’s young and went from being all too eager to throw himself into things to become a legend to someone taking the harder path of self-discovery which is . . . mythologically speaking . . . the path of becoming a legend through knowing oneself.

Shriketalon.1937:

….Tobias, my friend, I disagree with your statement with every fiber of my being.

No one ever has no other place in life than simply existing for a brief moment in another’s story.

Funny, that expresses my life quite thoroughly. A fact I have come to accept after countless years of feeling worthless, just because it means I have a purpose.

And the simple reason that it’s bad writing is that living beings don’t act like that. All things strive. Everyone wants something. The sage had decades of life before his pivotal scene. The soldier had hopes and dreams, family and friends. The damsel has a personality and plans, likes and dislikes, quirks and mannerisms. Even the most humble advocate for the welfare of others has entire worlds floating around in their head, their own personal narrative. There isn’t a single being in existence with no other place in life than a cameo in someone else’s tale. Everyone is the hero of their own story.

If you’re writing fiction, then that’s quite interesting a case to look at, because these things exist in reality and are readily available to be seen. There are characters/people who exist who impact the narrative of one person’s existence . . . not at all, except for one moment where they do something either helpful or harmful.

It’s real. And you know they exist, because they’re the people who ensure things happen and don’t go around demanding recognition. If you want living examples, pay attention to bureaucracies such as school districts sometimes. There are actually people paid and making good careers out of being nothing more than facilitators who keep the systems running.

You can disagree with me in regards to whether or not it should be written but . . . please don’t tell me there are no people who exist in that manner. They do. And I’ll repeat it – there’s no shame in not being the center stage attraction.

Because a character who brings nothing to the table has no reason to be invited to dinner.

Nope. Sorry, you’re losing me here. I’m not going to agree with this on a fundamental level. You could have said they have no right to exist and I’d still debate you over it.

I’ll say why in a simple phrase which should make more sense when you step back. Just because he’s not doing anything of consequence now doesn’t mean he never will. No hero starts off that way, and those who do aren’t real people, they’re walking plot devices.

My problem with this whole Braham issue is that I can spot tracks being laid down for him, and nobody seems to want to have the patience for them to let the character be immature in other meanings of the word. He is young, brash, and he has not made himself awesome yet.

So. Freaking. What.

If your peeve is characters who don’t have their own goals or desires, mine is how characters are just dashed out to be awesome from minute the first in an attempt to make us sit up and like them. A character who earns that awesome is worth more in my eyes than someone who starts out awesome because the writers demand it.

Why do I say that?

My three all-time favorite heroic characters in fiction which have endured are Simon Snowlock, Miles Vorkosigan, and Taran of Pyrdain. I highly recommend all three series of books, especially those first two series.