Guild Wars 2

Devata.6589:

2 For that person it would indeed not matter. Problem is that the fact that people buy gems always effects the game in a negative way.

. . . always negative? Really?

The Great Al.2546:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

In all seriousness:

Starting on a basic level:
Daily achievement always in cycle like Gatherer; “Daily Visitor: Visit 5 houses”.
Social achievment “Houseguest: Visit W/X/Y/Z Houses; Title: Couch Surfer / Neighborhood / Honored Guest / Toast of the Town”

Personally not feeling any of these. I already am under the strong impression that probably 90% of players will spend less than 1% of their time in these ‘houses’. Forcing it with a daily or achievements isn’t going to make it a more attractive option.

That’s not forcing it. That’s doing the same amount of “forcing” as they do to people to go do the Daily Activity Participation, or to go to WvW for “Mists Land Claimer”. It’s making it a quick, simple option for people to get credit and it might lead to them actually caring about it.

And I do agree, it’s very likely most of the players won’t really use the content. I’d say the same about a lot of things in the game – it’s very likely a lot of players will do Timberline Falls for world completion and then never go back there. It’s very likely most of the players will never touch sPvP/WvW/Fractals/World Bosses no matter how the rewards are revamped.

But it’s something they can put in which could be interesting and has been requested since before launch.

Vol.7601:

That is totally unrelated to the topic at hand.

And from what they’ve said, the whole VIP concept as shown in the data mining is completely unrelated to the market I play the game in.

:)

Vol.7601:

Zeldain.5710:

Vol.7601:

Mods should close this thread already.

Outrage was created, you got a response that refuted it all, false outrage continues to ensue for nothing.

I’m not for or against any kind of VIP membership, but…

1) The image was in English
2) The “sub”/“fee” models are typically more Western-market models
3) Blizzard said the same thing when their in-game store was mined.

Personally, I think I’d welcome a fee-based (subscription) if it would result in more consistent larger content patches that also worked toward bringing new types of features and systems to the game like raids, mounts, etc.

That’s because the devs speak english! When all the content is ready, it gets localized!

Why is that hard to understand?

It’s not hard to understand. But fear and sense of betrayal are two things which cloud judgement pretty completely, and lead people to conclusions not always within reason.

This is especially common if it’s something they’re passionate about.

Vanthian.9267:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s almost exactly like the places in Factions where you could only get in if you were part of the claiming alliance/guild, no mechanical advantages, just a neat little place to be exclusive and throw fruit at the peons. Except there’s no fruit.

Almost not all at like them. You actually had to play the game to get those areas. They were rewards for playing the game and donating faction within the game not bought possessions. They were free flowing and could change hands at any point. Unlike the pass and the noble area.

No, they’re still just convenience and prestige spots as far as gameplay is concerned. Also, “for playing the game” since launch day of Prophecies I never came close to entering any of those special gates. I spent time looking up what I was missing mechanically and aside from the discounted goods?

Not. A. Darn. Thing.

Royal Terrace is the same way. There is nothing there you can’t access elsewhere.

Vanthian.9267:

chemiclord.3978:

horror.

It does and most likely will affect you.

The day the next living story can only be played by Tier 15 VIP members or higher. Much like only people with a pass can get into the Divinities Reach Noble area.

Edit: [The remainder of this message can only be viewed by those who are of Tier 10 or higher within our VIP services.]

Hey, lovely extrapolation from nowhere, friend. You are aware the Royal Pass just lets you into a place where everything’s localized, and non pass-holders have a place almost as good. It’s called Rata Sum.

It’s almost exactly like the places in Factions where you could only get in if you were part of the claiming alliance/guild, no mechanical advantages, just a neat little place to be exclusive and throw fruit at the peons. Except there’s no fruit.

MrDmajor.7084:

So help me, if there is even a thought of implementing this I will be going full nuclear on this forum getting myself banned and /uninstalling GW2. From there I will spend the rest of my PC game life trashing and bad mouthing GW2 anywhere there is a text box.

Notice the official response did not deny anything, it just said “there is no guarantee”.

#cmonson

I’m curious, if they deny something which was pulled from their own data files and could definitely be seen to exist in them by good data mining rather than just go “yes, that exists internally, it’s one of several things we try out and see if it works” . . .

Which would you respect more?

Pariah.8506:

Martin Kerstein.3071:

We just wanted to respond to the image that has been data-mined from the Edge of the Mists testing branch.

This is a testing branch. We conduct internal experiments for various territories on our testing branches. This particular experiment is not being tested for the West.

As always, keep in mind that we test a lot more than we ship, so data-mining is no guarantee of anything. If we have announcements to make about future content, we’ll make them through the usual official channels.

So the host of the party pulls out a gun from under the table and announces he has no intention of using it, whereupon he leaves it on the table and proceeds as normal.

Oh thank you, I feel so much better now.

That’s not a gun.

That’s the host of your Christmas party pulling out the most gut-rotting, breath-wrecking, foul-tasting whiskey you can find off a street corner store and going “let’s do shots and play Monopoly”.

It’s a potentially terrible idea. It’s a potentially very entertaining idea. It’s potential blackmail fodder for years.

It’s not as dire as a gun.

Barsimoprimo.2759:

that fact that you have the audacity to consider it for any territory is disturbing, to say the least.

I’d say it’s a good thing it’s only under consideration, and yet I don’t think it’ll actually reassure people to hear “we look at a lot of things which nobody hears about, since we determine it won’t work”.

xXxOrcaxXx.9328:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

xXxOrcaxXx.9328:

Srsly, the past 10 pages (or so) have been conversations between 3 guys, can someone sum this up? I don’t want to read 10 pages.

I am a moron and have zero idea what I am talking about, so you can safely skip any and all posts with my name in them.

There.

:)

Oh thanks, good to know

In all seriousness, there is someone summing stuff up, but from me:

- Skill gates are okay if it’s not set so only 10% of the population can get something OR if there’s simply a prestige thing apparent without completely altering the cosmetic effect.

- Player housing should be a revamp of the Home Instance but if we kick that out to the curb then it should be functionally useful and appealing to “buy into” with effort/Gold to make it look good.

- Subclasses are a good idea if they are extensions of a known archetype, and don’t lock you out of others after you choose. That is to say, if it was set up to enhance trait lines/effects along a major/minor/minor/none/none distribution of the five trait lines, and added flexibility and not restriction.

xXxOrcaxXx.9328:

Srsly, the past 10 pages (or so) have been conversations between 3 guys, can someone sum this up? I don’t want to read 10 pages.

I am a moron and have zero idea what I am talking about, so you can safely skip any and all posts with my name in them.

There.

:)

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

The gem store has been destroying this game for months, so really this is just the next logical step.

The scary thing is… they may actually think that this is a good idea…

The scarier thing is, I can in five minutes write up how it wouldn’t be as terrible an idea as people have been claiming in this thread.

The scariest thing of all is that there are people like this who really believe this….

No wonder the MMO industry has been on a downward spiral recently.

wow, just wow. Oh well if this happens at least I’ll be able to quit without any regret or reservations.

Ha ha.

The fact people seem to be jumping to the worst possible conclusions and then defending it with “but we don’t know it’s not going to happen” type arguments . . . or simply “paid stuff is the devil” . . .

I said it above: if this was not a “per monthly service” and instead “you buy gems, you get in as a VIP and start ranking”, and with any of the bonuses you might get just being basically the same as already existing items?

The only things which would make me nervous are “waypoint to friend”, and “and much more”.

Substance E.4852:

Not aware of the gem store items that give any of this.

Well how about convenient banking . . . and convenient trading

Also reduced waypoint costs was already available and nobody was using it.

Nike.2631:

The last one makes me nervous – I’d have to think it over a bit more.

Trust me, it can be tweaked. But it would allow you to get uncommon skins (the stuff on Fine or Masterwork loot in the five regions) without having to jump through hoops or farm areas until it drops.

I don’t anticipate it being allowed for rare/prestige skins like Zenith.

But the first two brought a smile to my face instantly .

(You might set up a “sign guestbook, then spend at least 1 minute in the house” requirement to encourage a bit of browsing/sightseeing rather than running down a street ringing doorbells-and-bolting to the next for the goodies.)

I don’t know how well that could be coded as a trigger for it, though.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

The gem store has been destroying this game for months, so really this is just the next logical step.

The scary thing is… they may actually think that this is a good idea…

The scarier thing is, I can in five minutes write up how it wouldn’t be as terrible an idea as people have been claiming in this thread.

You know what would make me laugh?

If this turned out to be just a basic thing, you buy Gems once and become VIP then “rank up” as you spend more Gems and these benefits become progressive as you rank up rather than all at once. Like, basic VIPs get the bag/char/bank slot, but only top ones get the Waypoint Reduction and Resurrection Buff.

And everyone got worked up over “subscription service” for nothing, and would never apologize for it.

The Lost Witch.7601:

This shouldn’t mean that skill-based rewards should only be available for solo-instances. But it does mean that those are the only real skill-checks in PvE at the moment.

Through new content like challenge missions ,groups may suffer more from having ‘weak’ links, requiring everyone to give it all they’ve got. And skins could be based on the score. (Maybe a color variety like the SAB rewards, or other tweaks to a design)

Challenge missions were actually really fun for me to do H/h and see if I could beat my top score. The Nightfall ones I actually enjoyed about as much as I did anything else in GW1. The EOTN one, not so much

Personally I’m most fond of a system in which skilled players can obtain items that are similar to items that non-skilled players can obtain. Just a different color/texture/particle effect unique to their skill-level.

About all the differentiation I’d like, I think.

I agree with most of what you said, but I don’t think that the best rewards should necessarily be gained through skill. I just think that there should be some rewards unique to skill.

+1.

What I believe that skilled players desire most in rewards, is a way to show off what they have accomplished. And this does not need to be done through having more awesome clothes than someone else, just by having something that is unique to the challenge that they have beaten. (From a mini-liadri to a yellow pointy hat)

Or that /zrank emote from GW1?

Chuggs.1682:

Tobias – I actually agree with you that it is good to be able to make some judgments about the opposition at a glance, but a certain amount of uncertainty is also good. In the case of GW2, you can’t really tell class until they start using skills, but then you can see their weapons and know at least their 1-5, and maybe make educated guesses about the other half of their skills in heal/utility/elite based upon your knowledge of popular skills/builds.

Under the New Masters system Nike initially raised and which I sort of riffed on in the post linked in the quote above, those things would still be in place.

The way I envision Mastery working is that you open up access to a new weapon(s) for your class, and then a handful of new skills that are themed with the area of Mastery. You still have access to all your initial weapons and skills. So you have unlocked the Gladiator mastery for your Warrior, but you are still fundamentally a Warrior with a slightly expanded weapon/skillset.

So you would still be able to tell class/weapon set by looking at someone and their attacks, and the degree of uncertainty over whether they were using any Master utilities/elites/heals is only slightly more uncertainty than you already face. It just adds a handful of potential skills into the mix rather than changing how you evaluate the encounter.

Honestly, I don’t have a personal dislike of the system, it’s just trying to think of it past “yeah that’d be cool” and go “so what would this change after” which we should be considering as much as “here’s this cool idea”.

On paper, Guild Missions were also a cool idea. Implementation and aftereffect? Not so much. There wasn’t too much impact to them after the initial rush, was there?

DarkWasp.7291:

1. What would you do to help players along to getting visitors to their houses?

In all seriousness:

Starting on a basic level:
Daily achievement always in cycle like Gatherer; “Daily Visitor: Visit 5 houses”.
Social achievment “Houseguest: Visit W/X/Y/Z Houses; Title: Couch Surfer / Neighborhood / Honored Guest / Toast of the Town”

Secondary level:
A guest book, which tracks who came visiting. Interacting with the guest book gives some sort of reward small enough to not be a problem but not a pittance nobody cares about. And not another currency if we can help it. Push comes to shove, make it Essence of Luck or a MF boost for an hour.
A gift system where you can spend 1 copper, 1 silver, or 1 gold to leave a “Gift Box” of varying levels for the house owner.

Finally, with more work done:
Interacting with NPCs in the house or neighborhood of a friend (you know, the friends list?) lets you purchase copies of stuff in their model locker. Like you can see your charr buddy’s weaponsmith for a Steam Weapon (I chose this because it IS a lootable skin, not a definite locked version.)

2. Do you feel that open world or solo content needs a “Hard Mode” of some sort?

Needs? No, not really. Hard Mode in GW1 was oftentimes “let’s boost the level of the enemies” and little else.

Do I think it could benefit the game? Sorta . . . ? I mean, I don’t see what it would solve other than getting people some content they’ll burn through quickly or just write off as recycled old stuff with bigger numbers.

I came up with Eminence and Visitation because I liked what I saw in LOTRO with the neighborhoods, but found that without a designated RPer get together I found myself the only one in the area. I want the neighborhoods, I want people to check out all of the work I’ve put into my house but I don’t necessarily want to RP.

I actually had the idea that visitation would be mostly automated to draw the methods of acquisition away from begging (much like the trading post alleviates most trade spam). I’m not too attached to it, as long as there’s a system in place that motivates players to visit different houses.

Still would get beggars anyway, or people just going “Come check out my house”. I don’t see problem with the second ones and the first group would very quickly get ignored or left to beg with nobody helping them until they behave better. The population is actually really good about self-correcting stuff like that.

The boast system I just wanted to toss out an idea that other ideas could spur from. I’m tired of PuGs, but I also want to PvE on my own time so organized groups aren’t generally an option. I just want stuff I can do solo.

I would rather the stuff which are group-oriented be tuned down possibly so when we have dead maps (Timberline Falls, Brisban Wildlands, any zone in Orr) it can be handled.

When it comes to the relationship system, I threw that in there because day one my guild had like 6-7 real life married couples. I threw in self-account-relationships because it always bothered me that there is nothing more distant in an MMO than your own characters. The one exception for me being EVE where I had two accounts and my two capsuleers complimented each other, one combat and one industry.

I’m not opposed to it. I just don’t have a reason to get excited about it.

Conski Deshan.2057:

Between the guilds chat and myself we think the best reply to your reversed question is an analogy. We consider gaming a competitive (indirectly and directly)environment, so similar to sports you occasionally go to competitions (challenges here) there are several levels and the Trophy/medal (skin /whatever reward) is the prize for being successfully and only obtainable from that competition, the harder the competition the more prestige the medal/prize holds.

We’d like varying levels of challenges with skins for each of them,not all Liandri difficulty (fun fact none of us managed to successfully do that challenge).
like current dungeons could be equated to say a local competition, where as Liandri could be the Olympics? with different challenges filling the difficulty spectrum in between. For each area of the game.
(I hope that came out clearly)

It comes out, and I hope you don’t misunderstand me when I say there is a place for that. We have the WvW seasons (hopefully we’ll get a second one and so on), and we could in theory get sPvP tournaments. Getting overblown upset over failing to snag Gold League #1 and thus they get cool stuff? I think that’s hyperbolic exaggeration of “as a player I’m entitled to content”.

The varying levels of Mission Reward in old GW1? I was totally, completely fine with that. Even with doing it over again in Hard Mode! (Except in Eternal Grove, that can go kiss Dhumm. And not on the lips either.)

I guess I should say anything where skill isn’t solely reflex-based, one-shot-to-die-or-start-over . . . is acceptable.

I just want it to be kept as a concern of “How skilled do we expect people to be to attain this?” not being kept so high we average skilled players can just dream of getting them since it must be done alone and without assistance.

. . . and for the record, I never saw Liadri. I barely touched the Gauntlet matches because at the time I had more interesting things to go get done.

Allanon.9072:

lordkrall.7241:

Lets not jump ahead of things now shall we.
Until we have confirmation this is actually a thing it would be best to assume that it is either a joke, or something added to the alpha test-servers just to test the waters, or even an offer specific to the Chinese Release of GW2.

If it is indeed a real thing, I have a bit of mixed reactions, but it would all depend on how it would work.

One-time payment? Somewhat okay with it, but borderline.
Sub? Not acceptable, and might turn me off from the game.
Time and/or gems purchase based? Probably the best solution if this is indeed a thing.

They don’t put things there for nothing many thing that ppl dig out from game are atm in game or they was i guess will be like rift have with tiers.. the more things you buy the higher tier will go and maybe with different rewards maybe.

There are things in the data mining which never saw the light of day.

Is it weird I took a look at this and went “doesn’t look too bad”. Half of it doesn’t look like it’d be that bad of an impact on play.

The bank and trading thing is already around as Permanent contracts. An extra bag slot, bank tab, and character slot? Not much impact short of giving more storage to people – not unbalancing.

Gem Store discounts, Teleport to Friend, Additional Skill Points . . . potentially an issue but how much of an issue is it if a Champion Farm can get Scrolls for a skill point somewhat reliably? I know I’ve seen dozens of them so far.

The Gift Bag, I’m wondering if it’s just booster items or other silly minor things from Black Lion like the stylist kit or the like. Depending on what’s in it, shouldn’t be a problem.

Resurrection buffs . . .

. . . I dunno. There we might be entering sketchy territory.

Conski Deshan.2057:

I’ve deleted and rewritten my reply to this about a dozen times now but I’m going to just post some parts.

I’m going to preface this with: We appear to have very different opinions so are likely never going to agree.

Not completely, no, I don’t expect we will. That doesn’t mean we can’t kick around ideas off each other.

Lets get some basics that seem to be getting mixed into my proposal out of the way:
Elitism; where people are being excluded* and bullied by other players for say not having 5k AP or not being a staff ele etc, is an awful thing and I am completely opposed to it in every form. (*exclusion for say trying to join level 50 fractals with no AR is valid as a functional requirement).

It’s not the exclusion in an active sense which concerns me, it’s “you must have this much skill to proceed” locking off potential content. As is evidenced by other discussions on the forums – people don’t like it. They didn’t like it when Ascended was only available in Fractals, they didn’t like Guild Missions requiring a huge investment to unlock, and they didn’t like it when we got Ascended armor only available through crafting.

This is a game and a virtual world, in a single player game everyone can be a hero, you can change the difficulty to suit you.

Everyone can’t be the hero in an MMO, everyone can’t have everything and difficulty cannot and should not be tailored to each person. A game is about displaying skills, mastery, understanding, and frankly about beating the other players.

A person should be rewarded for being more skilled than another player, it’s a much better system than just he who grinds the most wins. It’s the basis for every MMO out there and unlike grind and vertical progression is a good aspect.

I would tentatively agree, the trouble is I don’t like to play games where I will never finish it because I just am unable to get through a part. I can only imagine what it would be like if I was forced to do all of GW1 henchmen only. (As a note, I managed all but one NM mission that way and three HM missions. Eternal Grove can go die in a fire.)

I do not want my progression in the game locked behind a skill wall.

Why should a good Pve’r look the same as a bad Pve’r? why should A Pvp’er look the same as a Pve’r? Visual differences are good! you want a specific item? go earn it can’t complete whatever it is successfully? That’s unfortunate move on.

Flip the question around: Why should a good PvE player look better than a bad PvE player? Why should a player not be allowed significant cosmetic options just because they can’t beat Liadri? Or they don’t want to proceed on the next part of the Living Story because Scarlet is involved?

I just want to be clear. If moving forward the endgame is about looks and you make the acquisition for certain “nice looking gear” prohibitively difficult to obtain, you’ll get backlash similar to seeing something require Huntsman (500) to craft out of ultra-rare 0.001% drops.

This is not a sandbox game, as such it has goals and objectives that you accomplish to get the nicest stuff, by all means feel free to never group with anyone, to refuse to do a jp or your personal story, I have no problem with you just doing DE’s all day if that’s what you’re into. But do not expect to get the same rewards as the person who worked hard did every dungeon, the fractal runner who has gotten to 80 or the PvPer who’s on a 10 win streak.

I, personally, don’t want the same rewards. Mostly because they don’t hold any significance to me. However, if there is something I seriously want or feel I need and it’s . . . say, only available on a perfect run of Mad King’s Clock Tower under a time limit? If I had to kill twenty opponents in WvW without being downed? If I had to solo the Risen Priest of Grenth? If I had to combo an entire set of the Bell Choir songs without one wrong note?

I definitely would feel the same way people feel about Ascended armor requiring the crafting work to reach the skill level.

I’ll leave my response on your opinion on legendaries as, If everyone could get one it wouldn’t be very legendary would it?

My opinion on Legendary weapons is they should have called it something else before they launched. And everyone should have the potential to get one by going through 60% of the game’s total available content as far as variety goes. Similar to how I can do a Daily Achievement completion by picking and choosing what’s available and ignoring things like “Take Stonemist Castle”.

Phantom.8130:

i’m well aware of what happened to CoH, and i never said that it had “nothing to do witht eh stock drop at all” which was why i asked if you had actually read what i wrote. because you invented things that were never said.

Sigh.

" in fact, if you take a look at the NCsoft’s financial report, when they announced ascended gear in november, their stock value plummeted. "

Those are your words.

“given that gw2 was the most publicized project of theirs at the time, and the massive disapproval of the direction it took (as displayed by the sheer amount of public outcry on these very forums), one would have to be blind not to see the relation the two things have with each other. it’s called deductive reasoning.”

Those are also your words. Note how you are “well aware” of what happened to Paragon Studios and their game but fail to mention it as being also subject to public outcry.

“they’re going to become very familiar with the company and the product, so if the company makes a decision that the public dislike, the stockbroker sell or short sell the stocks instead of losing their investment.”

Again, your words. While leaving it open there were other decisions, still focused on how Ascended and its outcry is to blame.

“it’s not presumptive at all. it’s understanding how stock trade works. entire companies have gone bankrupt due to single bad decisions”

Still focusing on a single choice, not any other circumstances.

“Something happened (the company moved their product in a clearly unpopular direction), it was bad (as displayed by the public outcry), and the stock dropped immediately.”

Applies just as much to the end of Paragon Studios and how efforts to try to keep things going failed. But then, this thread of conversation is about Ascended and therefore it must be that as the root cause?

So, really, I did read what you wrote, and all you had to do was admit anywhere the thing with Paragon Studios happened and explain why it wasn’t the case. Instead you ignored all but the most blatant reference to it and then said it didn’t matter and I didn’t understand you.

I understand your point. I just disagree with it owing to one and only one decision when there were other things going on at that time which could have accounted for it. I am not entirely sure, but were there other drops in stocks in other companies at that time? Was there a marketwide downward trend and NCsoft was caught in it? It couldn’t be other related issues to Guild Wars 2 such as the notable and exceedingly visible technical issues going on during Lost Shores ?

No, your insisting Ascended and the reaction to it in November has to be the sole cause.

Phantom.8130:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Phantom.8130:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m not a fool, but I argue otherwise because it’s pretty presumptive to assume a dip is solely because of one decision, in one game, when NCsoft has other games going on under its name. Not just Guild Wars 2.

There’s a bit of myopia in this whole argument you’re putting forth about how GW2’s woes with the Ascended debacle that November/December is the sole possible cause of the stock for the company falling.

Not the massive technical issues Lost Shores suffered for their first ever attempt at what would become the Living Story.

Not any other decision for any other game which may or may not have started with the word “city” which still outraged a lot of a lot of people. More than Ascended, I would say.

Not financial issues elsewhere.

No, it has to have been Ascended’s announcement in Guild Wars 2.

it’s not presumptive at all. it’s understanding how stock trade works. entire companies have gone bankrupt due to single bad decisions. hence why large companies like to have multiple projects going on at once. if one fails, they’re not crippled by it.

the thing about the stock trade is that it moves extremely fast. you can be rich in the morning and poor by lunch, only to be rich again by closing. it’s not a slow gradual process. when something happens, good or bad, the stock begins moving quickly. which is why the plummet happened. something happened (the company moved their product in a clearly unpopular direction), it was bad (as displayed by the public outcry), and the stock dropped immediately. if there were multiple factors over the course of a couple months, the stock would have gone down gradually. it didn’t. it dropped like a rock when ascended was announced. the entire process took a little over a week.

And it’s entirely due to Ascended’s announcement, which is pretty awesome if you consider it. I mean, NCsoft’s fate is entirely determined by Guild Wars 2 forum readers.

did you read anything i wrote at all, or did you just see “stocks”, “NCSoft”, and “ascended” and just kinda use the force to piece it all together in your head?

Do you read anything I write at all, or do you just decide I don’t know what I’m talking about since I don’t agree with you?

NCsoft still gets flak to this day from about a dozen people I know over CoX. You probably’d don’t know it but . . . it happened to close its doors in November 2012 alongside the whole Ascended debacle. That was the final month of it, and it had been announced in August it was going away. And people tried to save it, but were unable to.

So, an entire game’s worth of jilted players had nothing to do with the stock drop at all?

Phantom.8130:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m not a fool, but I argue otherwise because it’s pretty presumptive to assume a dip is solely because of one decision, in one game, when NCsoft has other games going on under its name. Not just Guild Wars 2.

There’s a bit of myopia in this whole argument you’re putting forth about how GW2’s woes with the Ascended debacle that November/December is the sole possible cause of the stock for the company falling.

Not the massive technical issues Lost Shores suffered for their first ever attempt at what would become the Living Story.

Not any other decision for any other game which may or may not have started with the word “city” which still outraged a lot of a lot of people. More than Ascended, I would say.

Not financial issues elsewhere.

No, it has to have been Ascended’s announcement in Guild Wars 2.

it’s not presumptive at all. it’s understanding how stock trade works. entire companies have gone bankrupt due to single bad decisions. hence why large companies like to have multiple projects going on at once. if one fails, they’re not crippled by it.

the thing about the stock trade is that it moves extremely fast. you can be rich in the morning and poor by lunch, only to be rich again by closing. it’s not a slow gradual process. when something happens, good or bad, the stock begins moving quickly. which is why the plummet happened. something happened (the company moved their product in a clearly unpopular direction), it was bad (as displayed by the public outcry), and the stock dropped immediately. if there were multiple factors over the course of a couple months, the stock would have gone down gradually. it didn’t. it dropped like a rock when ascended was announced. the entire process took a little over a week.

And it’s entirely due to Ascended’s announcement, which is pretty awesome if you consider it. I mean, NCsoft’s fate is entirely determined by Guild Wars 2 forum readers.

VOLKON.1290:

Phantom.8130:

VOLKON.1290:

Phantom.8130:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Phantom.8130:

in fact, if you take a look at the NCsoft’s financial report, when they announced ascended gear in november, their stock value plummeted.

I’m completely sure NCsoft’s stock has everything to do with GW2 and not with other stuff or other outside influences. It is totally and solely because Ascended was announced.

everything? no, and i never said it did. a significant portion of their stocks? yes, and only a fool would argue otherwise. their stocks didn’t drop down to being worthless, but they did take a significant hit that they still haven’t recovered from. given that gw2 was the most publicized project of theirs at the time, and the massive disapproval of the direction it took (as displayed by the sheer amount of public outcry on these very forums), one would have to be blind not to see the relation the two things have with each other. it’s called deductive reasoning.

Sure… I can see a bunch of brokers over at the korean stock exchange going “WHAT?! Ascended gear?! SELL SELL SELL!!!!!”

nope. public disapproval. that’s what they’d be looking at, and any stockbroker worth his salt is going to know how public views the company they have money invested into. if they don’t do research into everything surrounding where their money is tied up, they’re not going to be stockbrokers for very long. no decent stockbroker is going to invest blindly, and hope they get lucky like they’re in vegas. they’re going to become very familiar with the company and the product, so if the company makes a decision that the public dislike, the stockbroker sell or short sell the stocks instead of losing their investment.

Eh… no. Brokers aren’t trolling the GW2 forums trying to make decisions as to whether or not they should buy or sell NCSoft stock. First of all, Guild Wars 2 is only one piece of the puzzle… there are many games under the NCSoft umbrella. Secondly… what else happened in that time period that may have been significant?

Still want to point out on that thread of topic, the whole other debacle NCsoft was working against from gamers. Like, a whole game’s worth of gamers suddenly dispossessed of a game they put a lot of love and time into with the plug suddenly pulled with no warning . . .

. . . nah, can’t be that. He’s right, it has to be Ascended.

Phantom.8130:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Phantom.8130:

in fact, if you take a look at the NCsoft’s financial report, when they announced ascended gear in november, their stock value plummeted.

I’m completely sure NCsoft’s stock has everything to do with GW2 and not with other stuff or other outside influences. It is totally and solely because Ascended was announced.

everything? no, and i never said it did. a significant portion of their stocks? yes, and only a fool would argue otherwise. their stocks didn’t drop down to being worthless, but they did take a significant hit that they still haven’t recovered from. given that gw2 was the most publicized project of theirs at the time, and the massive disapproval of the direction it took (as displayed by the sheer amount of public outcry on these very forums), one would have to be blind not to see the relation the two things have with each other. it’s called deductive reasoning.

I’m not a fool, but I argue otherwise because it’s pretty presumptive to assume a dip is solely because of one decision, in one game, when NCsoft has other games going on under its name. Not just Guild Wars 2.

There’s a bit of myopia in this whole argument you’re putting forth about how GW2’s woes with the Ascended debacle that November/December is the sole possible cause of the stock for the company falling.

Not the massive technical issues Lost Shores suffered for their first ever attempt at what would become the Living Story.

Not any other decision for any other game which may or may not have started with the word “city” which still outraged a lot of a lot of people. More than Ascended, I would say.

Not financial issues elsewhere.

No, it has to have been Ascended’s announcement in Guild Wars 2.

Conski Deshan.2057:

I like the above options, a mix is always good.
As we’ve identified through numerous posts run buying is whats preventing some of the more desired routes, if we could work out a way to ensure that it’s not possible to do it, it would be best.

Preventing? I’ve never said it was preventing things, only that it being possible can taint it in the eyes of the hardcore. And if they’re the only ones who matter why do we have this discussion at all about how more than 10% of the population can have access to things?

I mean, that’s one of the big issues right now. Legendaries which are neat or deemed “really cool looking” have precursors which are prohibitively expensive to buy.

And even if run buying is prevented, you still get the specter of “maybe they didn’t actually earn it” in hardcore player mindsets if they don’t meet the proper behavior of those who “should be elite enough”. I present “eBay or n00b” discussions from various other games about how someone could have X but still not know what Y was.

But you know what? I’ll say it outright – The hardcore needs to get over this whole ’we’re the only ones who matter’. The game content shouldn’t be accessible because you pass a skills test or you never get to experience it. There shouldn’t be any sort of progression locked behind skill gates the average player won’t be able to do and can’t get help to complete.

That’s a step in the wrong direction to turn away players perhaps even worse than the inclusion of Ascended.

Some steps towards helping this would be,
1. Anet declaring run buying an offense,with the player being stripped of any gain from it if caught.
2. Adding mechanics that require all 5 players to be active participents, i.e 5 switches at the same time (not my ideal example), all have to do a mini jp each sort of thing.
3.Forcing each player to show individual skill in the path, this could be as I mentioned the party getting split up at some point in the dungeon for a while,with the others unable to run into anyone else s path(for reviving).

Item #1 is incredibly terrible for a solution and would cause people to set fire to Lion’s Arch in hours after it went live.

My favorite examples are Liadri and Tribulation mode,
Tribulation mode is prefect (in the reward scheme) you get to actively choose what reward you want and have reason to repeat it. There is no RNG and you get 3 steps of accomplishment as you work towards your end goal, (Yay I finally managed to get 2.1’s token etc.) Content wise I believe some people found it more an exercise in trial and error than player skill, although I did learn to dodge jump consistently from it.

Tribulation Mode was rote memorization of the path and what you needed to do at certain points. Much like the inspiration game “IWTBTG” is all about knowing which obstacles are coming and how your twitch reflex matches what needs to happen. Also dying. A lot. A lot a lot.

Please leave it where it is and don’t bring that difficulty into the game where unique stuff people want is there. Palette shifted models? Sure, okay, grudgingly that’ll be fine. Whole new skins? Treading a thin line. Any kind of progression?

Rata Sum burns the next day.

Phantom.8130:

in fact, if you take a look at the NCsoft’s financial report, when they announced ascended gear in november, their stock value plummeted.

I’m completely sure NCsoft’s stock has everything to do with GW2 and not with other stuff or other outside influences. It is totally and solely because Ascended was announced.

Snowball Mayhem, Bell Choir, Aspect Arena, Toypocalypse, and Lunatic Inquisition all ranked highly on how enjoyable I found them.

Costume Brawl seems less appealing to me with people holding tonics where they just sit on people and hit the same thing over and over to rack up “kills” with me unable to do anything. But it’s not a full activity so . . . kind of like the Moa Races it seems less like the “Daily Activity” and more like something else to do while hanging around town.

I didn’t really care for Southsun Survival or Crab Toss. Belcher’s Bluff gets a miss for me almost entirely over Irongut.

I never played Dragon Ball, Keg Brawl, or Reaper’s Rumble so I can’t rate them.

BeoErgon.9107:

It is what baffles me about the CDI. It is supposed to be a conversation but they answered none of the questions players made. A conversation is supposed to be both ways.

I suppose that they had strict instructions not to talk about was going to be done, but anyways. Talking about vertical progression without that key information is useless.

I don’t think it’s intended to be a conversations, what it is is one thread, one place where they drop topics and let the players chip in. They read through and pick things which look interesting to them and go “so if we did this here…” . . .

It feels a lot like a convention panel. It’s a dead given not everyone is going to get the same kind of attention as the people at the microphone asking the questions, but you can still attend and maybe get your words across where they can be looked at later in a room when they replay footage.

@Bezagron – Great work there, the links must have been incredibly finicky to get to work right. Taking time out to say great job with it! Someone remind me to tip him.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Dragon corruption seems to be an active… act, given how during hibernation the Elder Dragons release the magic they had consumed while awake, but it does not corrupt (hence why the asura were able to siphon off of Primordus to power their original gate network). So I would believe that the Sanguinary Blade was made in a unique fashion that these other known remnants of Elder Dragon bodyparts were not.

Okay, explain the Nornbear

Devata.6589:

2. Yeah that would also be a nice addition but still it’s a trick you learn. Multiple tricks but tricks. If you make it more random then it’s never a trick or a list of tricks you had to learn to master it. It will stay a challenge that require skills. Of course you could mix the two but I think the “gambits” would not be able to substitute what randomness will add.

Skill is knowing the tricks and when to apply them. It’s knowing when you see X, then Y is your response unless it’s not applicable, so Z instead. Skill isn’t “oh, you can beat this random combination lock of features, you are the best” . . . otherwise you wouldn’t see the same names near championships time and time again in games where chance takes a part.

Conski Deshan.2057:

You know what would be perfect for this, housing.

I know, and I’d find it much easier to build a fresh offshoot.

But I also don’t want to throw home instances out the window entirely, because they really could be so much more utilized as a means of acquiring each character’s ‘personal touch’ to things in ways OTHER than whether or not my Ranger has an orphanage or hospital burned down and the other might as well not exist . . .

On Skill achievements and skins,
I genuinely don’t understand the opposition to this, I noticed two people mentioned that these skill achievements shouldn’t appear on the achievements list or award AP either?
Unless I have my definition of an achievement horrifically wrong, displaying Skill is a major part of true achievements.

They don’t want it to feel like it is required by putting a value on it.

Gaebriel.3754:

@Tobias: Ah no, I didn’t mean solo instances, though that could be interesting too!

What I meant was to be able to toggle a Zone Challenge mode at an NPC, which will then remove all waypoint access for that character only. You would still be in the open world, it’s just an additional self-imposed challenge for fame, glory and fashion. You could of course toggle it on/off at will, at the Challenge NPC.

Add in being allowed to toggle it off from the death prompt, such as:

“Oh you didn’t make it, one second while I send someone to scoop up your organs.”
“1. Thanks, did they have to hit so hard?” – Respawn at the challenge start.
“2. Oh, no, that’s okay, I’ll just lie here and bleed.?” – End challenge and open the waypoints again.

Devata.6589:

Let me say something about this. To make a game more skill-based requires 2 or 3 elements.

1 Very good AI. Don’t make a boss stronger by giving him more HP or damage or some by giving him some ‘tricks’ but by making him smarter, so a better AI. This however is also the hardest solution.

I think it’s also the one which is more likely to have errors crop up or have the AI ‘break down’ . . . keeping this in mind for future releases down the line is the best course right now because they have more time to be tested than something being patched to live on existing things.

2 Add randomness to it (so also randomness in the AI). As en example I will not take AI but a JP. Once you master a JP it becomes a trick but what if you have to jump on moving stones however the movement, speed and so on are completely random. Then it becomes really a skill thing especially to do it multiple times. Only thing to be careful of then is that the randomness does not make it impossible in some situations meaning it becomes more luck then skill. But when done correctly also in AI then randomness is very important for kills, else stuff becomes a trick you need to learn.

I’d say with regards to jumping puzzles, the idea someone mentioned of adding “gambits” of sorts . . . “now do the jumping puzzle as a charr”, “your abilities are now locked”, sort of thing.

3 Roles.. If you want to also take the team-work skill into the overall picture that is. Then very specific roles that need each other to survive and reach the goal is a must. Not needed when you do not take the team-work skill into consideration.

There was that in Urgoz’s Warren where there was one room you absolutely needed Necrotic Traversal or similar skills to proceed through. I wasn’t very fond of the idea then and still am not now . . .

Gaebriel.3754:

This got me thinking more on the following, some of which I already briefly mentioned in an earlier post:

(Snipped for brevity)

Interesting, we’re looking at solo instance? Also the idea of a journal to pick up lore or such was floated around during pre-beta I think but not included . . . I figured due to time constraints.

Might make a neat mechanic to include for people to just get out and see the world all over again as more than potential farming places.

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

If you don’t agree with either of These Idea I have a solution for you.

What if you just get rewards for your home instance?

I think this is a highly underutilized part of five cities and while the team seems to know it (adding neat trophies of sorts to them via the Living Story achievements) they don’t have a lot to put in.

What about taking the bits people mentioned for personal house customization or decoration and it was possible to use them to improve the home instance? How about allowing the vendors there to stock certain items by selling them off to them . . . like “you sold me these Orrian weapons, I took one off to some weaponsmiths I know and had it cleaned up, how do you like this new look for it?” and now you can have a new weapon model.

Or selling things to the armorsmith in the human and he one time waves you over and goes “you know all that pirate gear you were dumping on me? Yeah I didn’t know what to do with it either but then I had a visitor who told me this story about the legendary corsairs and I just had to commemorate it in these new styles” . . . and you can buy armor models based off the pirate gear but with something different on it, dare I say some Elonian flair?

And of course, the option of telling the weaponsmith/armorsmith to “just keep this handy” and you get a transmutation item you can buy at any time to transmute your weapon/armor appearance on the vendors.

darkfiremew.5937:

This idea sounds awesome. That way we can use the LS to gradually explore new areas with a reason and keep them explored, changing the scenery over time with every new release.

That sounds somewhat what I was hoping to have out of the Living Story. Colin, Chris, please jot this stuff down for that topic too

Malchior.5042:

To be honest, I have no idea how sub-classes or elite classes would work for “Horizontal Progression.”

• If it’s just 1 subclass per class, then it will feel vertical because it’s one linear path that while it may not be required, player psychology considers it as “more powerful” or “better.”

• Basically, even if the intent would be “Horizontal Progression,” the player mentality and design would point to Vertical Progression.

How would you get around this mentality issue? I’ve been thinking on it, and the answer which keeps coming to mind is:

“No matter what the developers do at this stage, it’s going to be cited as an example as ‘yet more necessary grind into vertical progression’ by a non-zero number of people.”

• If it’s even just 2-3 subclasses per class, then that’s 16-24 NEW CLASSES Arenanet has to design, which even if done at a basic level, would take an enormous amount of time!

Not necessarily. One of the reasons I picked up with naming them after Insignia sets in my posts is simply because that lends a direction to each thing. They were part of the horizontal gear progression in GW1 – you only had so many spaces to apply bonuses which were sometimes situational at best, but none were explicitly better than others.

So go back, pick up the document about the Insignia and dust it off, start looking at them and figuring out where you can work with them among the eight classes we have now. Extrapolate them into a philosophy, for instance:

- “Lieutenant’s shortened hex duration, so let’s put this into a Guardian subclass which can promote condition-curing with benefits. Treating it like a Virtue which passively reduces the time conditions last but can be activated to clear all conditions from one target ally.”
- “Beastmaster’s gave extra defense while the pet was alive, so let’s make this so Rangers can synergize with their pets more. Maybe remove their F2 trigger and give them a weapon skill which will make the pet attack go off on hit.”
- “Prismatic gave bonuses to Elementalists who didn’t fully specialize in one element, so let’s work it over to offer up effects if your attunements are on cooldown to switch.”

I’m sure there are others people could come up with by looking at them. It’s not easy to balance, but it can be easier to build from because the ideas are already there.

• The only logical way I see of adding Horizontal Progression with regards to improved gameplay (cosmetics/visuals excluded) is to increase versatility and flexibility between the class roles/styles of play and to add new skills, traits, and perhaps even weapons to the existing classes.

That’s sort of what I’ve been suggesting overall, just using this “subclass” idea as a catch-all where it can be stored into without getting made very restrictive about what you can/can’t do.

• For sub-classes, Horizontal Progression doesn’t make sense to me. If sub-classes were to be designed, I’d expect them to be the next baby step of Vertical Progression. This way, they could be given all the flare, new mechanics, new skills, new trait lines, etc…that would make them unique, powerful, and something every player would WANT to achieve for ALL of their characters.

To be honest, I suspect even if it was pure Horizontal Progression, the people expecting Vertical Progression would still see it there. And if you made them like you suggest, it’d immediately set off the people complaining about grind for completion and being “forced” to do it.

I want them powerful but not made necessary because they are so powerful. I want them cool and neat without being pushed to the point where everyone feels they need to have it or else they’re no good.

VOLKON.1290:

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

VOLKON.1290:

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

There is no way in measuring skill without taking reaction time into consideration.

Ever watch a chess match?

You seem to never watched one or you would know you don’t have unlimited time to decide what you do next. You know why Computer started beating the best chess Players?
Because there is for each combinations on the deck a best way to answer, to be a semi profi you Need to know the best answer to the first 10 moves if you are a profi chess Player you Need to know the best answer for moves for about the 32 moves is it skill? Yeah it is the skill to remember the right moves but if a chessplayer like a gamer has the posibility to look up things it’s meaning less since he could just take a Manual and win ( This is how the Computer wins the chess match against the profi Players:))

You said there was no way to measure skill without taking reaction time into account. There’s no twitch in chess.

Guys? Please chill over the analogy dissections. It’s not getting anywhere, and while chess can always be pointed to as a “pure skill-based game”, it’s very likely not in tune with what everyone here wants to be playing.

Let’s just put one thing out here which can be agreed upon – I’m pretty sure nobody wants “skill gates” to be of a type where their hardware determines their success instead of their skill. And I’m definitely sure none of us want to have to play “I Want To Be The Ghostly Hero” to get some horizontal progression options for skills/abilities.

(Cosmetic rewards are okay.)

Nike.2631:

To be completely honest, my opinion is screw ‘em. Let them find out what I’m capable of when I do it. To me uncertainty adds far more to the pulse-pounding nature of PvP than being able to deduce 7/10th of my build at the edge of draw distance. And if anything it reduces the (unfair) advantage Asuras have, since you can hardly see their weapons anyway…

Well, I should throw the disclaimer down: I’m not big on the PvP scene but that’s the thing. There’s an elegance to knowing what the other side is capable of without knowing exactly what they will be able to do. I know that seems like a convoluted phrasing but trust me, think about it.

I see this male human in light armor, and I know he can be only so many classes he can be (plus the few racial skills). I get closer and see a dagger so I know they’re not a mesmer, so I don’t need to worry about clones and stealth. Once he drops his first skill I find out he’s an elementalist so I now know roughly what weapon skills they can throw with a dagger and how to engage. I don’t know what utilities he has loaded unless they’re signets, which I can see the passive effects for. But throw in an extra skill which I can’t know whether or not he can use, and this is an elementalist so there’s likely four different skills . . . well suddenly there’s the need to be aware those skills might possibly be coming.

I like the concept of new skills being open as weapon skills, but I worry about the effect outside of PvE. Something which I was thinking about cruising commentaries about various other games and ease of play factors.

The other side of the concern is probably more unfair to the developers considering some things said here: If there are to be new skills/abilities, it must be assumed the developers will have to balance the new additions being available for WvW as well as PvE even if they never reach sPvP. If they’re not balanced properly, it could tilt the metagame in such a way it “requires” people to go out of their way to get these skills/abilities just to stay competitive. If they’re balanced too precisely, it might be determined they’re “useless” for PvE play and thus might as well not exist.

Edit: Should note there’s been things like this in games I’ve played before. Certain potential actions which kind of defined whole periods of play and still are something to look out for. Though not as broken as some others . . . the fact these things exist at all? In some cases they’re almost considered indispensible

Erick Alastor.3917:

Thedenofsin.7340:

imsoenthused.1634:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mmm, no.

Ascended weapons aren’t required for me to fight the Shatterer. I am not wrong on this.

If they make a single bit of difference in how much damage you do, they are no longer prestige items, they are required. Failure to accept the truth doesn’t make it any less true.

Saying you aren’t required to have the highest tier item in the game is like arguing that you don’t have to bother leveling to the cap. The word that sums that up is “stupid”.

If it’s so true and obvious that ascended gear is required, then site some examples.
Prove it.

As far as we know, they’are the only viable way (excluding legendaries) to access to the vertical progression tha arenanet want to deliver in the upcoming years.

Er . . .

Citation needed.

imsoenthused.1634:

I would heartily support that idea

I really wish . . .

Arenanet had the push behind their ideas which actually are well-received, instead of seeming hesitant to put any effort behind things in case they are badly received. I can understand why they might be gun shy after the first half of last year being pretty much complained against constantly.

But some ideas just needed some more love and tweaking, others were really well received and just sort of stopped somewhere.

Nike.2631:

Cliff.8679:

Perhaps Nike mentioned something like this in his “New Masters” thing I keep seeing thrown around that I need to sit down and check out, though!

The New Masters was an attempt to bundle up a couple of different ideas into a working release. Follow the link. Its a bit of a read, but I hope you’ll find it inspiring. (And yes, I can describe what all of those skills mentioned in the post would do in general terms )

I’d also mention this post by Chuggs as having both an excellent summary of the concept and some intriguing ideas for expanding on the framework – both in terms of stages of progress and added value after the core mechanical goodies are unlocked.

Interesting, but there is one concern.

I’d almost like to see less of letting player classes pick up other weapons not normally available to their classes and more of just expanding on the uses of weapons which are already there.

If we’re going to talk horizontal progression, may we talk about Team Fortress 2 and how the horizontal progression there works? (The vertical progression there is, of course, those hats. That’s where the real power comes from!) You see a pyro with a basic flamethrower and know they have the ability to either roast you short-range or airblast you to knock you back. If there was a third ability they could alternate in, suddenly every pyro with a flamethrower you have no idea what you’re getting. They solved this by making the horizontal progression other weapons with very distinct appearances. A flamethrower which works better as a flamethrower but at the cost of airblast capability. Or one that does something else for a different tradeoff . . . but they all are distinctly visible and you can clearly tell what they have . . . and thus what they can do.

This is where my concern lies.

Part of the . . . shall we say, cerebral bit of any Player-vs-Player encounter (WvW or sPvP) is seeing “Oh that person is a thief and is holding daggers, so that means they can use these particular skills” or “I need to watch out for that hammer warrior’s knockdowns or launches”. It’s in a glance knowing what your opponent has with him and how he can use it. It’s knowing that despite what you can see you know there’s an alternate weapon set they might be using from what’s available.

The New Masters’ options would mean you have no idea if that Engineer has the expanded mastery unlocked and you aren’t facing a standard set of options. It means having absolutely no idea what that thief can do with the dagger until the Extra Skill is dropped on you.

It could give build diversity, but at the cost of this very quick, at-a-glance awareness in PvP situations.

imsoenthused.1634:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Once Hall of Monument Rewards got announced, I heard a lot in chatter about how it was now “required”. Just saying, it was prestige titles ONLY which those things were giving you in GW2 and there were people saying it was now being forced on them.

I would disagree with those people, although the rewards I got in GW2 from my Hall of Monuments are exactly the type of rewards I think we should have seen from end game achievements/grinding in this game, instead of ascended armor.

I think the Achievement Rewards we have with Zenith and such was a step towards that, though not quite fully realized yet. Hopefully future development can actually expand on that so I can get other achievement reward items stored in there. Like my Zephyr Sanctum model.

imsoenthused.1634:

I guess my biggest problem is the huge deviation from what worked in Guild Wars 1. End game, BiS gear was easily aquired, after that it was all just prestige skins. The game was fun enough that people put in lots of time for those prestige items, but because they had no stat difference they were in no way required.

Once Hall of Monument Rewards got announced, I heard a lot in chatter about how it was now “required”. Just saying, it was prestige titles ONLY which those things were giving you in GW2 and there were people saying it was now being forced on them.

timmyf.1490:

Very true! I’ve just not seen a subclass proposal yet which adds substantial horizontal progression without adding extra grind or power creep that adds to the game in a way the current systems cannot support.

Pretty much how I’ve been approaching it is as a framing system for potential new trait masteries or skill unlocks meant to give the classes ways to get away from “cookie_cutter_warrior_012” and such. And to make it more memorable and impactful on players, the idea was to give it something to attach to other than “grind to do X things, congratulations here’s your new skills”.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That was the Vigil’s plan of invading Cursed Shore talk about the Pale Reavers – which really only mentioned what I said, that they were a scouting unit formed because sylvari killed by the Risen do not rise again.

With “breaking” sylvari you’re probably thinking of a possible story step earlier, if you were to use scouts to locate the Eye of Zhaitan, where you meet a Mad Sylvari (NPC name) that was prisoner of the Risen and was oddly being interrogated rather than killed.

I know I had that as my personal story path as I worked through it. The Mad Sylvari intrigued me, as did the Pale Reaver unit because it seemed to demonstrate the dragons are not to be assumed to be less capable.