Guild Wars 2

timmyf.1490:

Again, I think we are all romanticizing the original game.

A often-less-than-a-minute long fight against our doppelgänger in GW1 is not evidence that we need a massive overhaul of GW2 in the form of subclasses.

Furthermore, extra trait points is not horizontal progression. Somebody get Nike on the phone so he can tell us about the Plains Wurm. ;-)

Dear neighbor,

Nobody said it had to be the same. Nobody is saying it has to be extra trait points or otherwise vertical lift in power level. The talk about this, as far as I have been contributing, is about broadening options to complement what people already are doing.

And honestly, right now this game could do far worse than taking cues from the previous game.

Cliff.8679:

Yeah, Prestige Classes is a good way to describe it. Anyway, it’s like I said: nothing about what you just proposed seems necessary to me and can be done entirely without the need for subclasses. Why does being a Druid have to exist if all it is defined by is the Beastmaster path? Sentinel for Defense, Lieutenant for guild outings, what do these add to the game? Is “Sentinel” just a fancy way of describing a particular defensive warrior build?

Naming the subclasses by what it seems everyone else was – the original names of armor Insignias from GW1. Druid being one type of ranger armor, Beastmaster another, while Sentinel/Lieutenant was for Warriors. Apologies but they are also functioning as placeholders for anything more substantial.

The point of that illustration was that I wouldn’t be locked in, but still have the freedom to move. Everyone who played GW1 remembers the Secondary Professions and how you could semi-freely switch between them. A proposal I would present would request that ‘tradition’ be honored – by accepting one path of a subclass you still have the option of others.

I’m not saying a subclass system is impossible, but I haven’t seen a single argument for them in this entire thread so far that makes them seem worth the trouble of implementing when any benefit they would give comes from the addition of new weapons, traits, skills, armors, etc.

I think it’s about the journey. They want these new additions to have a meaning more than “oh that’s cool, let me just go grind mindlessly for them”. They’d rather work for it in a means which would be something like a long quest for a Rat Tail rather than grinding X Rat Tails before they get the cool extras for their classes.

(Yes, that’s a FF reference.)

I think we should be focusing on fun horizontal progression systems that result in attaining these things for our characters rather than trying to figure out how all these would fit into some subclass system. I like the idea of the more personal story-style missions combined with some new open world content for attaining these.

I suspect the subclass system is being passed around since it seems to be something already having been brainstormed by the developers as a possibility. As opposed to a bunch of individual things which do not connect and have no relation to each other aside from “here, have some new events”.

Also, it’s a small thing, but I have a special fondness for Maat from Final Fantasy XI. In Final Fantasy XI, you actually had to do a series of quests for an old man named Maat when you got to be higher level, and each one would raise your level cap by 5. The final quest, which would unlock the full level cap for your character, was actually a duel against the old man himself. Whatever class you were, he took on that profession in the battle. It could be a pretty rough fight, and it was always fun announcing to your guild that you were about to take him on. I think this kind of thing would work well for what we’re talking about here. Not to raise our level caps of course, but to obtain a new skill or something for our characters.

Do me a favor. Go to the Guild Wars 1 wiki and look up “Augury Rock (mission)” then the “Attribute Missions”. These are close to what you suggest and existed before. What people want seems to be a translation of the FEEL of the whole Crystal Desert mission chain: Passing ordeals set by a ghostly guide until you fight a doppleganger using your exact skill list to Ascend and unlock specific options such as to alter your secondary profession and accumulate more “attribute points” (think an extra 30 Trait Points to get how it would be a big deal).

@Darkwasp – I’m reading through your five page post right now, it’ll be a while.

@All – Apologies for seeming adversarial, but I find thinking about poking holes in things can allow people to rethink something or they can explain it further to close up holes. It’s a technique I picked up during high school on engineering projects. “Don’t be afraid to question someone else’s design, or throw out your own.”

Cliff.8679:

How do those step on the toes of guild banners or banquet items? That’s like saying the account-wide achievement bonuses step on the toes of guild banners. These would be buffs in addition to banners. Food duration buffs would work on banquet items as well, making them last longer than if you didn’t have the buff. It wouldn’t step on the toes of any existing features.

Which account-wide achievement bonuses? Luck? They specifically overhauled Magic Find so there were only limited sources of it, with Guild Banners being one of the easier to get. (Stand at LA bank for a little bit, collect banner, move on.)

Here’s how it steps on the toes of guild banners and such . . . with a simple question:

“Why would I bother being in a guild for the boosts if I can get the same boosts off my home?”

“Why would I go through the expense of making a banquet item if I can just get it off my home? And if I can do it so can other people, they’re just being lazy not doing it.”

Cliff.8679:

The discussion on subclasses has centered around them being special versions of existing classes, not the GW1 system of multiclassing. More like “advanced” professions that you would unlock for each class.

Actually what a lot of people seem to be thinking of is “Prestige Classes” a la D&D 3.0. I should note these were incredibly nice in some instances but were prone to being used to min/max characters capable of things which could break the game completely unless clamped down on HARD by the GM.

What I’d like to see is something akin to a more recent incarnation of D&D: “Paragon Paths”, that is, you know what you want as you approach it and you’re picking something which meshes into the character.

And what I’d really like to see is a form of the Secondary Profession system which doesn’t break the Primary Profession by being more useful than the base, and isn’t neutered into being pointless.

How else to put this . . .

What I would really really want out of this system being proposed is for my style of play to be enriched without necessarily causing me to lose options. I wouldn’t forsake being a Druid ranger if I picked the Beastmaster path, for instance. Or if I wanted to follow a Sentinel path with my warrior because I want the defense but the Lieutenant’s is more useful for guild outings . . . while I might want Herald’s for WvW . . .

You get the point? I want them as options to enrich, not definitions of what I can’t have.

Cliff.8679:

DarkWasp, I read over your 5-post proposal for your idea of the housing. You obviously put a lot of thought into it, so I thought I’d offer some feedback.

Someone want to link me to this, I would like to review it. I know I kept mine brief and with more space for dev interpretation, when I put mine out there. Wondering what other people have in mind.

Edit: This stood out though:

Cliff.8679:

For buffs tied to housing, I think we should stay away from ones that affect anything combat-related. Magic Find, Karma Gain, Exp Gain, Food Buff duration, Waypoint Cost reduction, that kind of thing is all fair game. We should stay away from HP+, movement speed+, etc.

Any or all of those could render guild banners pointless, and irrelevant. I would
suggest when pitching new mechanics to avoid stepping on the toes of other features which exist . . . it’s more likely to be seen positively.

For seeing what I’m getting at? A guild with properly stocked banners can share almost all the effects listed under the housing benefits you offered. And the “food” ones can be shared with the banquet-style creations, so what we’ve got suggested would render the banquet items and guild banners less useful.

And there are also the guild buffs which can be bought, one of which I think is reduced waypoint costs. So . . .

I mean, these are not BAD ideas, but they’re already in here and making the existing ones redundant or found better with less work? Not good solutions . . .

Cliff.8679:

darkace.8925:

I’m late to this party and I don’t feel like combing through 47 pages for the answer to the question I’m about to ask, but I’m wondering what a sub-class system offers than the current trait system doesn’t already afford?

Nothing that I can tell, so far. The real issue is creating content and new, interesting, and fun “journeys” to attain new skills and traits for our characters. Attaching a fancy name to an existing class, like “Infiltrator” for a Thief and giving them their own abilities isn’t really any different than giving those “Infiltrator” abilities to the Thief class itself, and if players enjoy that playstyle, they can build around the relevant traits and skills. Some people have also mentioned unique “looks” that would be tied to subclasses, but what if you want to look a certain way but don’t like the playstyle of the relevant subclass?

Subclasses just seem like they would do more to limit us than anything else.

Depends on if the subclasses are “one only” or build like Secondary Professions were in GW1. Because Secondary Professions in that game were what made it crazy full of potential builds.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Gentlemen, I daresay next year we’re off to the deepest parts of Maguuma!

That’s good, I need to go find Hablion’s grave marker and pay . . . proper respects.

inazuma.7021:

My Sweet Lily.1952:

Chidori.9483:

My Sweet Lily.1952:

Well, I learned that Scarlet knows Malycks secret. Maybe she knows where the Other Tree is.

When and where did you learn this?

Scarlet said this during one of the Chamber instances.

I’m guessing this is if you are Sylvari and have Malyck’s story as part of your personal history. I do, but I haven’t gotten him yet. Looking forward to seeing this happen.

She had one for people’s chapters of personal story. Tobias got “what would your sister think if she saw you now?” or something similar. My charr got teased about his Diessa Chalice . . .

Alukah.2063:

It was less than a month then, I left 3~4 days after Wintersday patch, this patch was around 55MB.

Dunno, I know I noticed that effect logging into LA now. I try to log out elsewhere now.

Ben K.6238:

I wonder if you could have zones that large in GW2.

The idea of getting ascended… subclasses/proficiencies/traits/whatever-they-might-be through trips into the desert where it genuinely is a battle for survival and you don’t even get waypoints to hold your hand…

I really do like it. It’s almost like Hard Mode, but more compelling. Of course, I say that now, with no idea of whether it’d work in the game, but it takes the Crystal Desert of GW1 with all those notes in the sand that leave you thinking “you got how far in a week?!” and makes something genuinely dangerous, with minions of Kralkatorrik and whatever else may inhabit the area to watch out for.

Give people a reason to take defensive builds.

Only problem is then it sort of locks them behind content not everyone will want to do, or can get through if it’s tough enough. And if there’s anything we have heard a lot lately around here it’s “don’t lock your content behind stuff”.

Wintersday, which has all sort of effects in Lion’s Arch slowing down loading in general. However, once loaded it goes somewhat smoothly.

Cliff.8679:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I call that region “Orr” because more often than not there are tons of waypoints and all of them are contested

Funny you mentioned that, I had another little paragraph talking about Orr being the closest thing we had to it due to all the contested waypoints, but ended up deleting it right before I posted! I feel like Orr isn’t quite what I’m looking for as far as a waypoint-less region because I feel like that area is just more annoying than scary. I think part of it is because it is still easy to get through it by yourself without worrying too much about sneaking around enemies and such, and that if you do die, there are still a few waypoints here and there. You don’t really feel so much fearful as you do annoyed running through Orr. Plus, by the time you go there, you’re already sick of dealing with Risen and the region itself is under siege, which kind of diminishes the whole idea of exploration.

Plus if you really wanted to get the full effect, a waypoint-less region would have to be far bigger than Orr.

Crystal Desert, as under the reign of Kralkatorrik. “The fine sand gets in the mechanisms for Pact Beacons and keeps them from functioning so be extra careful out there!”

And time to steer back to the topic of progression:

I’ve weighed in on my preferences, and I know it’s not agreeable to some but they’re what I personally would like to see. I would like your choices in the personal storyline to impact how your character develops, and so forth. But there’s objections (fairly!) to picking one of the three orders and finding out their offerings aren’t for you. Sort of like noticing after you get so far Whispers Medium does NOT look good on you . . .

So it doesn’t need to be completely exclusive, unlike the prestige armor.

Option #1: Once you hit the Pact section, the trainers will teach you secrets of other orders for a one-time charge of Skill Points to open them up. After all, by that point now you’re struggling together against Zhaitan, it’d be foolish not to share secrets which could change the war. And it’s the Commander, after all, s/he can be trusted.

Option #2: They’re also just all available but some are “discounted” for a certain order. Much like it is still possible to get “Antitoxin Spray” even though the story need for it is passed.

Ben K.6238:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Ehhh, factual problems. There were three of outposts along the way: Yak’s Bend, Ice Tooth Cave, Beacon’s Perch. There were also two missions making it easy to reach Beacon’s Perch if completed. And you didn’t have to respawn at the outpost if you wiped, you’d respawn at the last Resurrection Shrine you passed with -15% death penalty to a maximum of -60%. And it would go no lower but you could still die and respawn and get plastered really easily

Not in the Jan ‘05 beta – there were no resurrection shrines so you had to stay alive. At the time I had no maps to refer to, so I had to find the route over the Shiverpeaks – missed Grendich Courthouse, which was too well guarded by charr to make it with a group of level 6s, and had to run past level 11 hydras in the Ascalon Foothills who’d just about one-shot the party with a well-placed Meteor.

Finally got to Borlis Pass where I got higher-level henchmen, but didn’t know that missions allowed you to progress further along at that point, so I ran through Iron Horse Mine and found Ice Tooth Cave. After that, I fought from there through to Scoundrel’s Rise – I think I skipped Lornar’s Pass (as Beacon’s Perch was called during that beta, hence the incorrect description in GW1 later) and into North Kryta Province on to Lion’s Arch.

Ascalon Foothills was by far the most treacherous bit. The Droknar’s run after release never had the same impact because the resurrection shrines had been added.

Really? Mind you my first finding out about the game was on launch day when I worked at EB Games and a friend brought it. I tried it for two days and went “I MUST HAVE THIS GAME”.

So I have fond memories of Prophecies before it was called Prophecies, and before Sorrow’s Furnace

Valanga.5942:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

- Ascended rings and backpieces came with Fractals. New content.
- Ascended necklaces came with Laurels and the Daily Achievement revamp. No new content.
- Ascended trinkets came with Guild Missions, from the bounties to challenges. New content.
- Ascended weapons came with the revamped Tequatl fight. Your mileage may vary on whether it counts as “new content”.
- Ascended armor came with Wintersday 2013. No new content, just a repeat of the last phase of Wintersday 2012.

A truckload of small guilds would like to have a word with you about the Guild Missions being “new content”, since for them they may as well don’t even exist…

Well that’s not “literally zero new content” that’s “figuratively speaking, zero new content I could have done”. There’s a difference.

timmyf.1490:

Ben-

My fondest memories are spending literally all night trying to make it south in the Shiverpeaks through Lornar’s Pass. It was Beacon’s Perch to Granite Citadel or something. And it was brutal.

I was up until 6am trying one time when my cat stepped on my power strip and kicked me. (In GW1, you couldn’t rejoin.) I was Monk, so this meant doom for my party as well.

Despite the failure, I still remember this fondly.

Beacon’s Perch through Lornar’s Pass, Dreadnought’s Drift, and Snake Dance before even seeing Camp Rankor. Longest potential path to take where you don’t have an option of ducking into an outpost. Also incredibly fatal to those setting out from Beacon’s Perch with armor/weapons you can get up until that point.

Valanga.5942:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mmm . . . “dumb”, nah I don’t find it “dumb”.

Incredibly misaligned with what the players asked for, even for those wanting newer gear? Yes. A series of confusing choices for how it got released a little at a time with no apparent guidance for how? Yes. Unnecessary additions where it just doesn’t give an advantage great enough to be bothered worrying about? Yes. Overhyped on all sides for both how amazing it was and how much it breaks the game?

Very very much so.

Dumb isn’t quite right. I’d say more “effort better spent elsewhere or just shelved for another year until it matured and was complete, AND had compelling reasons to go for it other than ‘stats, yo’”.

It’s not about the release timeframe… And i will never tire to repeat that… It’s the fact that every single piece of Ascendand gear (witth the exception of the rings), came with literally zero new content to play in order to acquire them!
I mean, ok, GW2 is the groundbreaking, revolutionary, next generation MMO and blablabla (insert random “we are so awesome” blogpost quote), but really, every single MMO in the past, added new content along with new gear, so people would have something new to play while acquiring said gear… Wouldn’t have been better to just copy the old games, instead of going 100 original?

“Literally zero” new content?

- Ascended rings and backpieces came with Fractals. New content.
- Ascended necklaces came with Laurels and the Daily Achievement revamp. No new content.
- Ascended trinkets came with Guild Missions, from the bounties to challenges. New content.
- Ascended weapons came with the revamped Tequatl fight. Your mileage may vary on whether it counts as “new content”.
- Ascended armor came with Wintersday 2013. No new content, just a repeat of the last phase of Wintersday 2012.

Can’t agree with “literally zero new content”.

But for me, and I do make it clear elsewhere, the timeframe and method of release was the misstep with Ascended. It should have been released better instead of with very long staggered steps, and it should have initially come with a better acquirement system than it had.

In my opinion, if they had released Fractals as a random generated set of 3 plus a boss Fractal . . . THEN when Laurels were put out added “hard mode Fractals” with Agony and other assorted effects similar to HM Domain of Anguish? And the only difference between HM loot and NM loot would be getting two Bonus Rewards at the end randomly generated instead of one, all with the same loot chance?

Would have been amazing. Would have been in keeping with EOTN Dungeons, in fact.

Ben K.6238:

Sir Arthur.8905:

Even IF, you simply brought back the original ascension trials, and made it so that we had to kind of “follow in the footsteps” of our ancestors from 250 years ago, to reach Glint’s lair and possibly find….. Glint’s child, who is looking to avenge his mother, and is willing to teach us the skills needed to face a dragon and it’s champions…. It would be great.

Truncated for brevity – but I love the idea of revisiting the Crystal Desert for ascension like that. It didn’t make a whole lot of sense in the Prophecies storyline but it does here.

Cliff.8679:

One thing that this game completely lacks, which I’ve always actually kind of enjoyed in MMOs in a kind of masochistic way, is actual fear. It’s hard to be afraid in a new, unknown place when you know you can just respawn at the waypoint a minute back. I would love to see some experimentation with regions that don’t have waypoints.

One of my favourite memories of the GW1 beta weekends was trying to make my way over the Shiverpeaks to Lion’s Arch from Piken Square with a small party of under-level characters. Back then you had to respawn at the last outpost – Piken Square – if you wiped. It was a dangerous journey and it felt like quite an accomplishment when I made it, regardless of how I eventually discovered I was doing it wrong by not going through the missions to get there.

Ehhh, factual problems. There were three of outposts along the way: Yak’s Bend, Ice Tooth Cave, Beacon’s Perch. There were also two missions making it easy to reach Beacon’s Perch if completed. And you didn’t have to respawn at the outpost if you wiped, you’d respawn at the last Resurrection Shrine you passed with -15% death penalty to a maximum of -60%. And it would go no lower but you could still die and respawn and get plastered really easily

The dangerous journey was Beacon’s Perch to Droknar’s Forge with henchmen alone as your company Or, if you needed something different, Granite Citadel or Marhan’s Grotto.

There was not very many zones even in Prophecies far from an outpost. I can name five right off the top of my hand where there weren’t outposts relatively close and weren’t a postage-stamp size you could run through easily. Dragon’s Gullet, The Wilds, Mineral Springs, Dreadnought’s Drift, and Majesty’s Rest.

(Note, Dreadnought’s Drift is tiny but still jam-packed with all that lovely roaming group goodness dangerous to those trying to make Droknar’s. Complete with potentially a Res Shrine Death Loop if you were unlucky.)

Valanga.5942:

Ashabhi.1365:

If ascended gear had been in the game since day one, nobody would have given it a second thought. People wanted “more” and asked for “it.” They got “it,” and now they’re complaining about the means to get “it.”

There is nothing in this game that is locked if you don’t have ascended gear. Yes, there are things that are immensely easier with it, but if I want to run fractals as high as I possibly can, there is nothing that pops up on my screen that says “Sorry, you don’t have the right gear so you can’t be in here.”

It’s the players that are requiring it. How many LFG have you seen that put restrictions on the players? How many times have you seen “LFG, LVL80 Asc.only?”

Again, it’s not the game that requires it. It’s the players.

People asked for content, asked for things to do in order to get that fun the devs said it would’ve be the engine of their game.
People got Ascendant grind. Wich is not required, so it’s basically a big waste of time that could’ve been used to create actual content and solve the problem.

Am i the only one who find this dumb?

Mmm . . . “dumb”, nah I don’t find it “dumb”.

Incredibly misaligned with what the players asked for, even for those wanting newer gear? Yes. A series of confusing choices for how it got released a little at a time with no apparent guidance for how? Yes. Unnecessary additions where it just doesn’t give an advantage great enough to be bothered worrying about? Yes. Overhyped on all sides for both how amazing it was and how much it breaks the game?

Very very much so.

Dumb isn’t quite right. I’d say more “effort better spent elsewhere or just shelved for another year until it matured and was complete, AND had compelling reasons to go for it other than ‘stats, yo’”.

Cliff.8679:

timmyf.1490:

I’ve felt this for awhile, though I still don’t quite know how to phrase it. Wondering if others might have an opinion.

As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.

I’ve suggested zones without waypoints as a way around this. Does anybody else feel the same way? Or am I romanticizing the runs from towns to far-flung locations in GW1?

I had a discussion about this recently with some friends. It’s a bit offtopic, but yes. Waypoints are a fantastic convenience, but they have the side-effect of making the world feel a lot smaller and diminishing the feeling of exploration. One thing that this game completely lacks, which I’ve always actually kind of enjoyed in MMOs in a kind of masochistic way, is actual fear. It’s hard to be afraid in a new, unknown place when you know you can just respawn at the waypoint a minute back. I would love to see some experimentation with regions that don’t have waypoints.

I call that region “Orr” because more often than not there are tons of waypoints and all of them are contested

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Tobias: The ‘death’ upon corruption was mentioned in an old interview in regards to corruption in general, if memory serves me right. Though it’s been ages so I’m not entirely sure, but Zhaitan’s effects specifically is simply “sylvari don’t rise again” – which bridges into the idea that Zhaitan and the Risen themselves do not corrupt living beings (though they can – see Kellach and Necromancer Rissa).

Poor Kellach.

I don’t think it was an old interview, it was something later after the game launched. But I recall something in the first mission of the last chapter saying the Pact was dispatching sylvari first onto Orr to investigate since they weren’t affected like other races and didn’t seem to draw Zhaitan’s attention.

(And then we promptly find out, no Zhaitan can handle them and yes, you can break a sylvari without much more effort than it takes to break, say, an asura.)

Nike.2631:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Difficult to balance out correctly perhaps, but overall more rewarding to see your choices actually impact your character rather than “meh, it doesn’t matter which order I join”.

“Meh, it doesn’t matter which race I choose.” was a great idea, and even that doesn’t adequately inform people of the differences in Racial skills before the irrevocable choice is locked in.

Except it does matter which race you choose. Hence why I see quite a significant amount of asura roamers in WvW as opposed to charr. Not for the skills but because they’re small and sometimes easy to miss through clutter at a distance.

But you know, I pointed that out because I do want the choices I make to matter to my character. I really do. I want them to matter for ways other than things nobody else ever knows. I want the fact I chose to join the Vigil show as something other than a footnote in the personal story data.

I want it to shape how my character progresses. Differently, but not GREATER THAN others who chose Priory, or Whispers.

. . . or, I guess, we can just have a Whispers skill which spawns apple barrels.

imsoenthused.1634:

I apologize for the stupid comment. I just don’t see what the argument is about. If it’s better then it’s required to my mind set. They already had a great system in Guild Wars 1, where prestige items were just skins with no stat differences. You can make acquiring something like that as grind intensive as you want and not violate the spirit of their original manifesto. When you make it have a game play difference, the entire subset of achiever gamers, as defined by the Bartle Test of Gamer Psychology, feel that they have to work towards them. Arguing that the tier underneath them is still viable doesn’t have any impact on that psychology.

I get your point, but I really was trying to point out: just because I don’t have Ascended, it doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy the game. And just because you, personally don’t see merely being viable as good enough, it doesn’t make the game different. It’s still balanced as if Exotic was the highest power tier, therefore the power boost of Ascended isn’t required by the game.

That’s the difference, and that’s where everyone gets so hung up on the argument about the word “forced”. The game is not forcing you into it. It may very well be your personal playstyle or addiction or psychoses or whatever . . . but the game as it stands isn’t doing it.

Thedenofsin.7340:

The manifesto is referring playing WvW and running Fractals, not being the #1 in Gold Leage WvW or running level 50 Fractals.

Want someone weighing in, how much of the #1 server in Gold League had ascended gear, and how much of it was just focusing PPT?

Latinkuro.9420:

ColinJohanson.2394:

• Additional story lines with your orders that allow you complete or unlock new masteries/abilities.

Tying new masteries and or abilities directly to orders is a bad bad idea.
- you can only join 1 order on a specific character.
- what if the masteries I want or make sense for my class belong to a different order ?

unless the current order joining system is drastically changed I don’t see this working properly.
- say I can either join a different order or choose to join all 3 but represent 1 at a time kinda fix.

The idea would be, or should be, to make sure all orders’ masteries/abilities/jujus would be suited for their order but also for their class. So while Whispers agents might get sneaky things thieves can still get things for being sneaky sneak backstabbers from Vigil or Priory training.

Difficult to balance out correctly perhaps, but overall more rewarding to see your choices actually impact your character rather than “meh, it doesn’t matter which order I join”.

Azala Yar.7693:

Ok, if ascended gear stats make no difference, they why bother having ascended gear?

If they made no difference, they might as well be just skins and if they were just skins there wouldn’t be an argument about them.

It’s a valid point. It’s also a valid solution – if everyone just went “no” and didn’t get them, do you think that would get their attention faster than repeatedly stomping your feet and screaming how it was a betrayal of the game?

DarcShriek.5829:

What if the new toxin helps to reduce the sylvari immunity to corruption?

They’re not . . . immune, exactly. They just die instead of becoming corrupt. I think this was said somewhere with regards to the Risen.

Along with the notes on Primordius not corrupting things, rather it fashions destroyers to emulate certain types of forms.

imsoenthused.1634:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mmm, no.

Ascended weapons aren’t required for me to fight the Shatterer. I am not wrong on this.

If they make a single bit of difference in how much damage you do, they are no longer prestige items, they are required. Failure to accept the truth doesn’t make it any less true.

Saying you aren’t required to have the highest tier item in the game is like arguing that you don’t have to bother leveling to the cap. The word that sums that up is “stupid”.

Okay. Let me point this out too.

I don’t have to level to the cap to do the Shatterer either.

Your move.

Fafnir.5124:

Magnus probably sunk Keil’s ship I see an epic revenge Living story event coming.

It could be cool if that were so. Captain Magnus sank the ship either on accident, or because it had to be done, and rescued Kiel from the sea as he wasn’t aware a child had survived. She finds out and doesn’t get the whole story, and promptly turns on him. The result, his supposed ally on the Captain’s Council now steadfastly hates him and now attempts to undermine his authority.

And Captain Evon Gnashblade just sighs and tries to get BOTH thrown off because their issue is harming Lion’s Arch.

Aeonblade.8709:

Swagger.1459:

I hope that if a “grand journey” to horizontal progression is introduced, the paths are equally offered to wvw, pvers and dungeon/fractal players or you’ll run into the same issues that we currently have with ascended vertical progression.

This, remember, WvW centric players aren’t going to be pleased if they have to farm PvE for their progression, be it horizontal or vertical

Add targets or mechanics for the progression on the parts of the Borderlands or Eternal Battlegrounds outside of the general combat area. Like behind Speldan, or out behind the skritt/centaurs/orchard.

OR . . . OR put it in Edge of the Mists?

imsoenthused.1634:

Thedenofsin.7340:

The operative word here is ‘force’. There is no content in this game where you are forced to get on that grind treadmill. You can hit level 80, buy some rare/exotic gear, and tackle any content in the game. That’s the point.

If you want to get that really cool skin, or be the best in Fractals or dominate WvW, then you’re going to have to grind for it. However, that’s not what the manifesto is saying. The manifesto is saying that you don’t have to grind to have fun; you don’t have to grind to experience any of the game content.

This is different than, say, World of Warcraft where you have to grind out your Tier 314,230,118 level Warrior armor and weapons in order to be able to go raid Bahamut’s Belly Button (25 man).

The skin rewards and backpacks and minipets and ascended gear – none of that is necessary to enjoy the game content.

However, if you want those cool things or those rare things or the best items or to be the best in WvW, then, yes, they are available, but they come at a cost. That cost is a grind. However, that is palpably different than content that is simply unavailable to you unless you grind.

The moment you put a stat difference on it, it becomes required. You can argue about that all you want, but you will be wrong.

Mmm, no.

Ascended weapons aren’t required for me to fight the Shatterer. I am not wrong on this.

Shakkara.2641:

ColinJohanson.2394:

And most importantly: How would this result in unlocking an advanced profession or advanced horizontal progression for your character? [I get how a system like this could be used for more world bonus specific rewards which is really cool, but I don’t fully see the character specific journey which was my original question]

The event idea is an interesting one, but it doesn’t feel like a “grand journey” so to speak. Do you feel like if we asked you to do 90 different events in a month, and that allowed your ranger to say become a Druid, you’d feel like that was a cool system.

No, just please NO!

This is a terrible system, and I think you get what we want completely the wrong way around.

We want more skills and more traits to have more diversity and really build a character that suits OUR wishes.

What you’re doing with your subclasses, is once again make DEVS design character templates for players to follow.

It is somewhat their job, though. Also notable in how we’re coming from a game in which there was so much to choose from and people still fell into broad templates when it came to play. Along with all the weird outliers which weren’t ever actually intended. You know, the perma-SF assassin build which wasn’t supposed to be possible and yet was until it had to be tweaked.

What might actually work better is if the “Druid” subclass, or whatever, consisted of extra options meant to synergize with one of the trait trees. Or with the concept of it majorly built on one, minorly built on two, and not on the fourth. It’s not hard to generalize it instead of what you suggest is “the plan”.

Far as we know, there isn’t a plan for this at all. That’s why we’re having this discussion. And honestly while this might be an answer to horizontal progression, I somehow get the feeling the majority of the game will just gravitate to whatever lets them Champion Train faster.

In a sense, it worries me the players as a whole might not use the horizontal progression everyone here is clamoring for as anything except to fit into the narrow little paths they’ve already carved out and ignore the rest.

Worst of all, you propose us to do some chore as task, that has the subclass as ‘reward’ at the end. Sounds an awful lot like vertical progression to me.

I disagree with how you’re using “vertical progression” because it seems you’re conflating “work for it” with “climb the ladder” type thing. This isn’t something which is going to just be handed out, otherwise nobody is going to really feel like there was any progression horizontal or otherwise . . .

If this is about horizontal progression, there should be a horizontal approach to acquiring new skills, meaning that like in GW1, they’re split in many little bits which are ALL available for capture at the same time, waiting for you to capture. It’s up to you how you prioritize their acquisition.

Except that was very vertical too by your definitions, because you couldn’t capture an elite skill which only appeared in Vabbi (Visions of Regret?) in Kryta and had to progress through quests before that would even be available to you normally. And “Hundred Blades” was only originally available through one mission, at the end of the game, the second-to-last combat. Highly, incredibly resultant of vertical/linear progression.

I think a similar system to the hearts would work, heart-quest like things that each unlock an individual skill/trait/etc upon completion. The only bad thing is that GW2 has so many character levels and thus many zones are not yet accessible to low level characters so that unfortunately means that they can’t capture everything right from the start.

Exactly like Signet of Capture targets, it would appear to me. This can be mitigated by having new masteries (the things you trait into with points) only available from places people should have levels to. Such as putting something requiring 20 Wilderness Survival to trait for in a zone where presumably people are in the right level range to actually use it.

TooBz.3065:

Vayne,

There was something in between exotics and legendaries.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mystic_Forge/Equipment

People just weren’t satisfied with purely cosmetic progression.

I . . . was not even aware these things existed. I thought Mystic Coins were just used for Clovers.

Conski Deshan.2057:

If you do choose difficulty I think the doppelganger solo fight would be a perfect choice.

You mean the one Rangers could almost do eyes-closed with the proper skill selection? Sure

Kevan, seriously . . .

If you’re hanging around hoping to change things, try to be better about it instead of just bitter. Stop knocking on what didn’t work or is wrong, and get to work figuring a way out which doesn’t insult the people you hope to get to listen to you.

Please?

Malchior.5042:

• The idea above that adds different weight to all the events sounds decent, but also sounds incredibly time-consuming to Arenanet. Colin, I probably could do 90 events in a week, but I wouldn’t enjoy it. Instead of deciding on a number first, I’d focus on the flavor of each event being run. I would expect a Ranger hoping to “Ascend” (hehehe) to Druid would do an event track or whatever that sent said Ranger all over Tyria doing Druidy or Rangerish things (those are words ).

Oh it can be done in an easy and less time-consuming fashion within four weeks’ time with a team of three people.

Step 1: Decide what the general thrust of “Druid” rangers would be. Or “Gladiator” warriors, whatever.

Step 2: Identify 5 events which almost perfectly coincide with the feel of the class lore or playstyle wise. Give these a weight so doing 4 would be enough.

Step 3: Zone by zone look at chains of events and evaluate them. Disqualify Living Story events, World Boss events, and other content which isn’t always available. Each chain gets a weight so doing 12 would be enough on their own, but they need to reach the end of a chain to apply. (In other words, “Event Trains” are given incentive to stick to the end and not do the most lucrative bits.)

Step 4: All other events not chains and not disqualified in Step 3 get a weight based on the profession of NPCs involved, the locale involved, or other flavor. Make it so doing 24 of these (and solely these) will get you to the end. The slowest, but easiest method.

Conski Deshan.2057:

1. Communities or Solo instances?, do you want to see groups of players houses in the one instance or a private instance with only your house in it? (people can still visit either way.)

Groups in one instance means it’s higher to be likely you could not be with your friends. How about your friends list can denote who shows up in your “community”, like if you have mutual friends you will always see their houses available?

Still run into space issues though. Well, unless it’s based off in the Mists where actual real estate space doesn’t matter

2. Construction, what level of involvement would you like? building it block by block? A room by room function where you can pick and choose rooms to add? A series of set designs?

I love games like Minecraft and Terraria’s control over what you can do and the sheer RIDICULOUS amount of effort people can put into doing things terribly unique with construction. I’d rather they stick to those games than Guild Wars 2. I’m sorry, don’t get me wrong, those of you who do things like rebuild Minas Tirith or make soaring citadels of glass and stone which look like they took hours – I salute you. But trying to satisfy you with that level of control is going to drive the developers MAD. MAD I SAY.

What I’d expect is a modular approach. You can choose a floorplan/blueprint from a few predeveloped shells with “X large rooms, Y small rooms, and Z floors”. Then you can pick and choose from a list of “large rooms”, “small rooms” to fill it in. Things like a trophy hall, a crafting workshop, or something just decorative . . . like your asura has a golem foundry, my human has a chapel to Grenth, his charr can have a room where he works on his charrzooka or mortar system. But almost all of the basic rooms come unfurnished.

Then you can use artisans or interior decorator NPCs to create from a menu using some materials (not huge amounts though) to craft furniture or decorations which get placed like siege blueprints – you get a bundle item and a red outline turning green where you can place it. Standing close you can target it for context specific things . . . like sitting on the couch or posing before a trophy on the wall.

3.Functionalities, I think we can all agree at a basic level housing should allow for some storage and display of trophies/achievements/weapons/armor , in addition to this what would you like to see, Farming? nodes? intractable objects? side missions?

Trophy showing off? Yes definitely.

Nodes? Ehh, yes, might be nice. Link it to what your home instance currently has available and you can either use your house or your home instance. And based on level you can have access to crafting materials of varying tiers (but not Tier 6 without actually doing something to earn them) such as a rich ore node or a few trees, or a garden you can choose what to plant for availability tomorrow. Like you will get sometimes a seed from gathering which lets you spawn a patch of that gathering node for plants in a garden.

The last probably is a bit much and prone to causing shakeups in the economy for food. Oh well?

4. Interior customization, placing objects within the house how would you like it to work?

I covered it above.

5. Getting items, How do you get items to put in your house?

Decorations either through your interior decorator crafting them, achievements from Living Story or retroactive, potential rewards from champion bags, or from chests out in the world. Say, chests in Orr have a chance to give humans an icon of one of the Six Gods looted from the Holy City of Arah . . . or charr a piece of Pact weaponry to hang on the wall as memory to those who were lost . . . or sylvari getting a sprout traced back to Caladbolg’s influence on Orr?

In other words, decorations either basic and available to everyone or things which require you to go adventure and get them.

6. Linking to other content, is there anything you would like to link with housing? (i.e in a perfect vision of the future I could walk out of my house onto an airship dock and take my airship into combat)

Much like with Guild Halls, you can buy servants/assistants who would do things like . . . an Arena Master who would let you go to Heart of the Mists, a Mist War Veteran who could drop you to WvW, an Asuran Travel Facilitator who could send you to any Asura Gate destination in a major city. Or for a FLAT FEE (say, 2s 50c) drop you at any Waypoint not contested you have discovered. (Big enough an expense it’s possibly cheaper to move to a city close then travel, small enough that it’s preferable to reach some long-distance locations like Orr).

Traveller.7496:

ColinJohanson.2394:

The event idea is an interesting one, but it doesn’t feel like a “grand journey” so to speak. Do you feel like if we asked you to do 90 different events in a month, and that allowed your ranger to say become a Druid, you’d feel like that was a cool system?

I would feel that would be just a grind. Quantity over quality is the best solution. I’d like it to be something like the hatching of the Black moa chick from GW1, which felt like a real adventure/scavenger hunt.

What if there were a list of Dynamic Events which qualified for changing the Ranger to a Druid, say, but each one was giving a different “weight” to it. Like the Rotting Oakheart event in Queensdale giving +10 while one defeating Sons of Svanir in entirely unrelated means a +1. (That is, still getting it done, but really slowly and not requiring you to jump through hoops.) You fill up the bar to transfer yourself from Ranger to Druid and you can do it . . . AND to make sure you don’t wind up being trapped if you don’t like it, Ranger Trainers will “refresh your memory” and let you go back to being a basic Ranger but also allow you to change to a Druid for a fee of Skill Points (NOT GOLD).

ColinJohanson.2394:

Say for example, we decided to allow your profession to gain an additional mastery as Nike and Chuggs in particular discussed above. I think we have a lot of fun ideas in here for the journey unlock specific aspects of that mastery, but what if you first had to unlock the core “mastery” track, which then allowed you collect the smaller components? What kind of experience do you think would be compelling here as an over-all journey?

Forgive me, ladies, gentlemen, and developers. But I am going to say: That doesn’t feel like Guild Wars to me. It feels more like a tabletop RPG such as Ars Magica. Not a bad thing, but the question needs to be raised whether it evokes Guild Wars (either incarnation) enough to fit?

• Additional story lines with your orders that allow you complete or unlock new masteries/abilities.

Yes, please. Let’s have those orders mean something. Let Order of Whispers not just be chosen for Tybalt but because their masteries you can learn are more in tune with their group philosophy. Remember “reputation track skills” from EOTN, where the skills definitely evoked each so-called-faction and didn’t exactly overlap?

Ideally, my point suggesting Vigil be for people who have a direct approach to their game, Priory for knowing the enemy, and Whispers for indirect work. But make these masteries synergize with all the classes rather than “Oh Whispers are for stealth thieves” . . . which is a tall order for design and balance.

But it would be oh so satisfying for your affiliation to reflect on your character. It might lead to . . . roleplaying.

• Adding new content to the existing maps (or re-using existing moments) that serves the purpose of being a bit like skill challenges, content on demand that allows you to overcome challenges to allow you unlock various abilities/masteries.

Probably the quickest way to integrate, probably the one most likely to get players to get into actually playing around with them than the other method, but also most likely to become “normal” and “assumed to have”. Like assuming by now everyone knows the world because it’s been a year.

Again, pros and cons of this method. It depends on whether the players want their new toys quickly or not.

A lot of the ideas boiled down into variations of one of these two options, and really both have a lot of cool concepts and ideas. Can folks think of anything else that’s a bit more outside the box for something bigger?

Sure. Start weaving it into the Living Story where players can interact with the involved NPCs and collect the data of responses. Let them know their choices will shape things . . . then after the chapter closes, take what their responses were to it and build new skills/masteries based on the story having been told via players.

Like, the Antitoxin Spray was a good start but how about this: You have a Living Story event where, oh, destroyers emerge from Mount Maelstrom and a couple other known nests across Tyria. Priory, Order, and Vigil NPCs are around to direct efforts and start DEs, and afterwards each player gets dialogue options which only appear once for each character and are collected.

For instance, and to be simple about it for the example: the choices leaning on protecting people fighting from the destroyers’ abilities, or trying to figure out a better method of fighting them. The information gets collected and in a later bit there’s the NPCs found in Lion’s Arch at the respective order locations saying they have developed new techniques. If the player has an achievement showing they took part in the “voting”, they can pick up the skill/mastery then. If not, they are prompted to go to one of the existing destroyer nests and complete a DE involving destroyers . . . after which they are given the option to pick up the skill/mastery.

Conski Deshan.2057:

We can bring the discussion back to housing now , I beleive the idea of the CDI is that once players have ideas they want to discuss they back and forth it between them in the cdi to pick holes or fill gaps.

Linking to my post here where I laid out most of the broad strokes of my own vision of what MIGHT work within Guild Wars 2 to bring it out.

Reaching to other games for inspiration, though:
Personally, not even Minecraft lets me do it “right” due to the restrictive nature of its design. I prefer Terraria’s decoration breadth . . . especially the recently added trophies which are highly RNG related but still something I’d like to see possible if we do player housing in GW2.

I’d compromise on the skill challenges, allowing multiple avenues but they all have to be skill based and of roughly equal difficulty (or player % if you prefare).

I prefer not “roughly equal difficulty” so much as “proving someone was willing to put effort into attaining it”, no matter what that effort actually is. And not simply “I had gold, and thus I got it” or “I had time, thus I got it”. Though that last one, well, if someone does have the time to just try over and over until they get it through sheer luck instead of skill . . . who could tell?

Anyway housing,

I’ll get back to you on that. New topic from Colin to reply to first.

Vayne.8563:

The whole debacle could have probably been avoided if Anet were better at communicating.

This could be said for a lot of games . . .

They’re getting better though. Definitely putting some effort into trying. Now to see if it works.

Seras.5702:

What khani said. The personal story is actually one of the better parts of leveling. It’s not being led by the nose until after about 40-50. The 1-20 stuff is quite fun and gives great XP. Plus, you do get a little choice here & there so replayability is an option even if you pick the same race for your enxt character.

I replay human a lot, because I like to see how Logan behaves in different pathways. The “never knew my parents” path which involves the White Mantle is just golden.

And the “lost sister” path is . . . look, say what you will about the writing in the game later but that path had an adversary which had no clear evil motive . . . just a case of “one choice led to others which brought him way off course of where he wanted to be”.

Kevan.8912:

well…i think it didn’t intend to be the middle ground
but just a better investment (than actual just cosmetic legrndaries) for money/time/grind, with an incentive in stats for who needs it.

I said that because it was a paraphrase of what they said. The exact words, if I recall, were “to bridge the gap between exotic and legendary”, which at the time seemed odd if you just looked at it statistics-wise (because legendary weapons had the same stats as exotics).

You mentioned effort, and it’s been occurring to me maybe the investment to obtain was supposedly the middle ground they were shooting for. And as I said, they terribly overshot to where you can almost take the money spent to get up to crafting an Ascended weapon and just get a Legendary weapon.

Kevan.8912:

am i the only one to think that my post didn’t infringe any forum rules? (and got locked).

Referencing locked threads and moderated posts is a good way to wind up eating another helping of moderation attention. Try, really try, to approach it in a way different?

Or take it to Reddit? They don’t have quite as stringent rules on what you can post.

about exotics easy or not: i’m sure anet knew that they were readily available at level 80. they wanted them to be like that.
and after a while, they changed their minds as knew that ascended would be so much grind.
it’s not incidental.

It’s related to exactly how easy exotics were versus what people had to go through for a Legendary. And thus they were out to try to put a middle ground for effort.

. . . and rather completely missed the mark in the process . . .

Shongaqu.5279:

@DarkWasp
You have converted me to instanced housing! Great ideas.

I largely advocate instanced housing because I played Ultima Online, where real estate was often held both by people who had the opportunity to seize a plot of land big enough for their castles AND the power to keep it unmolested. There were serious land shortages in that game for later players and as awesome as it was to see some player-housing cities in the wild . . . there were many problems related to the whole “public housing”.

Also having played “Ultima Online” I have a really high bar for the ability to decorate your own house. Oops. Looting unusual pieces from treasure maps or dangerous locations, or maybe just thieving them from shops when nobody could see you.

That said, I had a post worked up about housing and what I’d send up to be looked at for discussion on it. I’ll save it if we’re way past that topic now though

Conski Deshan.2057:

I recognize run buying as a major problem for skill content that we will have to address but feel we shouldn’t rule it out just for that. (I quite liked my Ele’s obsidian armor )

And ranger Obby didn’t look that bad, but I liked my Monument coat better. WAY better. Especially with blue+silver+silver dye. But I just want you to know, a lot of them were just . . . “what?” . . . like other “Elite Armors”, very hit and miss. And like a lot of things which were eyesores to me, a status symbol which everyone wanted and was willing to shell out platinum for.

But “run buying” shouldn’t disqualify skill content, it’s just what you described was NOT purely skill content. It was a lot of grinding for material collection (or grinding for money to buy the materials, take your pick of grind) ending in an “elite dungeon” you had to buy into with each attempt (including failures), and it was in theory possible to craft a Hero grouping which could roll the content anyway.

It was, in essence, the precursor to dungeon runs from EOTN.

Note, I don’t mind these exist. As a player whose skill (lack thereof) is on my mind during discussions like these, I prefer the option to find people who could carry me through either out of pity, altruism, or greed. But they cheapen the accomplishment/trophy in the eyes of the “hardcore elite” to where it might as well not be skill based anymore.

Hardware issues and connection issues are also a problem but really we can’t just not develop challenging content because the person running the game on a 10 year old laptop might have difficulty. It is a genuine problem, I’ve played on American servers for games before and been killed and failed challenge content due to the latency it’s annoying but I wouldn’t advocate the removal of it just because I can’t do it.

Oh, I would advocate keeping it in mind. Part of the charm of this game and the old Guild Wars 1 was how low the system requirements could be to play it. It’d be like allowing achievements for people only running Mac clients . . . or supported another game or never ever attainable, ever but still can be seen on the checklist of things to earn . . .

By the way, the last could be considered a “skill based” challenge which would be awesome if it wasn’t rendered impossible by new players, and somewhat problematic via random drop chance.

I’d like to see, if we got “skill based challenges” . . . multiple legitimate avenues to earn something which could be considered “significant”. Defeat a solo instance, or a jumping puzzle, or complete a DE chain, or explore to find things related to the challenge. Different skills, same reward. Or maybe the reward gets some indication of which method you used to obtain it, so people know you earned the “Hammer of the Great Dwarf” by the ‘hard’ way or the ‘easy’ way.

Sorry I’ll rephrase my last bit , Ideally for me it being a unique item would be my favorite option, you look at a person and go they completed x , y , z I know this because they are wearing the hat, title and have the mini out for those achievements. I know they didn’t buy it because the items are account bound and there is only one challenge where they are obtainable.

See my last bit above.

Conski Deshan.2057:

Palador.2170:

I have no problems with skill getting you something faster, as long as everyone can get it eventually. But when it becomes a barrier to content and rewards, isn’t that a problem?

I have a problem with everyone being able to get everything eventually. I like skill gates because I consider them fair. It wouldn’t be a barrier to content because you still get to attempt the content you’re just not assured to successfully complete it (i.e Risk something sorely missing from this game).
I can give lots of examples, but I’ll say that it’s a staple element of games, those who are better at them get cooler items, more verity etc.
A guildwars 1 example, you had to complete a full run of the Fissure of Woe, an elite challenging area with advanced mobs and hard combat where if you wiped you lost all progress. This could take up to 3 hours for a group to do successfully and was the only way to get the elite armor Obsidian armor.
It was fair, as any player at max level could attempt it, there was a way to access it from each campaign. So all it came down to was were you good enough.

No, it came down to “is your team good enough” or alternatively “I paid someone 5 plat to run me through Fissure of Woe with his group so I could use the materials I paid 100 plat to accumulate for my armor”.

. . . and it didn’t even look good on most professions!

By the way, that does affect things by adding a subeconomy to the game: those rewarded for their skill by getting rich as balls off runs.

As an analogy the skin is a trophy, you can enter the Martial arts competition for a chance to win the 2014 martial arts trophy. You have a fair chance to try and get it but there’s a risk you won’t , if you don’t get it you can’t get it by other means as there is only one way to earn the 2014 martial arts trophy and that is by winning the 2014 martial arts tournament.

Yes, but there’s elements of luck in play which simply cause things to go highly awry of “just skill”. You need to be cognizant and plan . . . if your idea of a skill-based challenge to include requires them to never have more than 100ms latency or they wind up missing their jump window, then there are a lot of players who could otherwise do it who wind up locked out not through fault of their own, but misfortune.

This is a terrible result, by the way, and turns it from “skill gating” into “hardware gating”.

For it to be worth the players while it has to be unique, no alternate way to get it. getting something slightly faster is not a reward in an MMO.

I disagree. For it to be worth it to a player, it has to have meaning. Now, what that meaning is could be “I am the only one who was l33t enough”, or “I was dedicated enough to be online at 3am on a Monday morning when the event happened” or “I spent 100 gold for this blue dorito”.

The Lost Witch.7601:

Well, even if results can’t be sold it can still have an impact on the economy. If the obtained rewards are replacements of rewards that you would otherwise get with money.

Let’s say a weapon, or even a skin. If you were to get that through skill – related rewards, you wouldn’t need to buy the weapon or skin with money. The net result being: you saved yourself money -> influence on the economy even if the reward cannot be traded.

I can see your point.

On the other hand, unless said result translates to several dozen gold I wouldn’t consider it an impact on the economy.

Azala Yar.7693:

mesme.5028:

Azala Yar.7693:

Was going to post something new in this thread, but after reading my previous posts realised everything has already been said.

You made a post, you made a post again, we don’t want peeps to repeat themself’s
Gosh something in that sounds familiar.

You did make me laugh.

I was reading my old posts and what I was thinking of posting in this thread, I had already said in another older thread.

Sure I could repeat myself, but why bother. It didn’t get anywhere the first time.

If people look through their old posts how many times have they repeated themselves in effect.

You often get the same people arguing for and the same ones arguing against.

I know, I know, I really just try to be consistent with my nonsensical devotion to bits and bytes of things I really don’t have impacting my real life