Guild Wars 2

Kevael.3589:

Torgrim.3642:

Guild Wars 2 needs some form of grind sadly like every other MMO for the simple fact if there is no grind whatso ever then you’ll play it like a singleplayer game til you beat it then move on to another game.

“If you love MMOs, you’ll want to check out Guild Wars 2, and if you hate MMOs, you’ll really want to check out Guild Wars 2”
Mike O’Brien

Well he’s not wrong.

Doggie.3184:

There’s really no need to explain it further, but the whole Ascended thing did murder a nice chunk of my interest. The OP is pretty much correct. It feels like a bad idea with the sole purpose to stall time for development. They shoulda just did another WvW season instead to stall time. :o

I have the feeling the next WvW season will start after people recovered from binge-playing the last one. People need to rest between seasons, and I mean mentally. Otherwise you get burnout.

Much like the OP.

laokoko.7403:

And if you only wvw, kittened to be you. Since you can’t make money from wvw.

I’m going to call your bluff. I’ve made money at WvW before, just not at off-peak hours. All you have to do is not spend it on Golems getting blown up in ill-advises uses and not bankrolling upgrades for places which aren’t getting defended.

Also, sell everything.

mesme.5028:

Perhaps not soon as Colin says but we will yes.

Well, it can go pretty easily along with “in the future” being a nigh infinite span of time moving onward from right now until whenever things decide to stop existing entirely . . .

Yeah, it’s a safe bet to say “sometime in the future we will see a new tier”.

Jski.6180:

This alone keeps GW2 far more easier to get loot and craft items then say in WoW.

Fixed that by the way. Sorry, English minor

And sadly though we agree it’s probably not as bad as originally made out, it’s not simply “far easier”. The number of chances is multiplied, but the all-limiting Fine or Rare materials are harder to get your hands on as opposed to Basic. I must stress this point when discussing crafting, because I have had to stop and go collecting specific tier and type of Fine materials (Smooth Scales, for reverence) well before I ran out of the corresponding basic materials (Rugged Leather).

On the other hand, drops in that area and chests gave me serviceable gear until such time as I could just run a Temple push and get the exotic gear through karma.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

But yes using current acquisition times it takes about 40 days to get caught up, which is much longer than the 10-20 days it takes to catch up in WoW. So again GW2 ends up being much more of a grind then WoW.

Small question here, since I don’t play WoW and only know people who do (and complain endlessly about not getting the drops, or just failing completely) . . . how does this “catch up token” system work in comparison to getting the drops? IS it the same item or a weaker analogue? Are we measuring to the absolute top tier of WoW gear or just “good enough”?

Elthuzar.9478:

I do not think the drop rate of cloth is adequate to support the crafts, meaning more people are going to be funnelled toward converting gems to gold in order to purchase their raw/refined materials from the trader.

Drop rates are mostly irrelevant, if you make liberal use of salvage kits to get your cloth scraps. Which is where roughly 80% of the silk I’ve used up comes from.

TexZero.7910:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The problem with the open world combat is the same as it is in other games when you get roughly 5+ people in the same place; tactical thinking starts to be less important, and it becomes less important to pay exact attention to everything going on. Leading to people just going “yawn, okay, autoattack and keep an eye out for when I need to do something else”.

This is exactly the problem that should have been solved already. I’m not saying they aren’t going too, but what i am saying is for a game that has been out a year it only saw 1 maybe 2 dungeon paths in where stacking is not optimal… Open world is still a stack fest including Teq.

Again auto attack to victory is beyond boring. Those “combo fields” yeah… those could use another looking over as they do generally nothing to provide meaningful combat experience.

You’re not quite getting my point. There just isn’t a solution which won’t be as useful as “just throw more people on it” to the populace :P If it can’t be beaten by just pouring an entire zone worth of people in twenty square feet spamming attacks it’s “too hard to do”.

TexZero.7910:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

TexZero.7910:

I think the generic excuse is….

Everyone heard what they wanted to hear and for the most part we (arenanet) have held true to our vision of the manifesto.

…It’s a shame that GW2 has literally become the Fable of its genre. Way over hyped with a plethora of empty promises.

Basically players like you have your own idea of what the Manifesto meant. So far, I haven’t seen any broken promises, since the Manifesto still holds true to today. And with GW2 being named game of the year in 2013, I’m hard pressed to see how you still think the way you do.

Really then explain the following quote from the manifesto

“We want combat to be meaningful. We don’t want you going oh i swung my sword, i swung my sword again.” -Colin

Explain how this has been held true in open world combat whatsoever ?

It never will be, unless you’re a class not using swords. Really, why the heck does this not get understood? If you break it down to the most basic level of analysis, there will always be the repetitive actions in combat which make up the basic level of combat. The actions “swing my sword” / “shoot my bow” / “fire my rifle” / “nargle the snarflorf” all pretty much are building blocks and basics which people will always default to if they are the most efficient . . . or the least demanding . . . of options of combat.

For instance, in other games . . . he swung his sword, he swung it again And for a change of pace, sometimes he swings his sword in the other direction too.

But you know this stuff already, and you know what the spirit of the quote is as much as I do. I just mock the literal interpretations of the manifesto because they’re disingenuous.

The problem with the open world combat is the same as it is in other games when you get roughly 5+ people in the same place; tactical thinking starts to be less important, and it becomes less important to pay exact attention to everything going on. Leading to people just going “yawn, okay, autoattack and keep an eye out for when I need to do something else”.

It’s not going away, primarily because here you have events which draw perhaps 30+ people to the spot and they wind up making it (almost) unimportant to pay attention to anything other than “is it dead yet?” and “should I heal?”.

Though, WvW open field combat is definitely a departure from the usual “stand still and swing” people can get trained to do in PvE zergs. So there’s that.

seekerking.2875:

deathklock.4961:

I have never played a MMO before that had such a vast amount of worthless loot, time vs reward is a total joke in this game.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glob_of_Globby_Goo
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glob_of_Globby_Gloop

What could you possibly be referring to!?

Vast amount of worthless loot? EverQuest had tons of stuff which was not “worthless” in the sense of you could always get something for stuff. Of course, that’s until you start comparing values . . .

Also, by some aspects, UO had absolutely terrible NPC loot outside of a few places. It was the PCs which had the good stuff.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Grind or not, what other game has a materials list for a single crafted piece that is longer than the play list taped to the arm of an NFL quarterback?

EverQuest.

Mordalus.8146:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mordalus.8146:

2. particle effects too heavy (one shot in zergs because can’t see boss telegraphing)
3. zerker build only viable build in pve
4. instance ownership griefing

Re #2 – Need option to turn particle effects off. REALLY miss that about my EQ days.

Re #3 – Only? No.

Re #4 – Yes, well, that needs to get some attention. Seriously.

I’ll elaborate on #3. Zerker is the most efficient, highest dps build. On top of that, many parties don’t want anything other than zerkers. I’ve seen people get booted once their non-zerker build was revealed during play. Especially condy builds. Two condy builds in a party and you can be sure at least one of them is getting booted.

Well most efficient DPS is probably not going to change but that doesn’t mean other builds aren’t viable. Only that they’re not as efficient at DPS, and in some cases that’s not always good. (Those cases are, to note, very situational.)

The latter half of this is a social issue about people and not something simply fixed. Also – never been booted for not being zerker. Been booted for being a ranger, but not something other than zerker.

Danikat.8537:

Scarlet already attacked LA – that’s how we ended up having to vote for a new Council member in the first place.

No, the Aetherblades did, Mai Trin running that show. Somehow I doubt that’s what Scarlet wanted.

morrolan.9608:

Hayashi.3416:

Combining all of these speeds, because you can do all of them at the same time, it takes 32 days to get full ascended WITHOUT buying ascended mats from anyone else. That’s way shorter than 8 weeks.

Good luck getting 10,000 silk scrap in 32 days.

Mireles Lore.5942:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

However as far as I can tell GW2 has a much longer, less rewarding and more frequent gear grind then WoW ever had.

And with that statement you lost any credibility to make any point you might have wanted to make. GW2 gear being more “grind-ier” than WoW is just laughable.

And yet its been proven before on this forum that it is quicker and easier to fully gear up with a new tier of gear in WoW from scratch than it is in in GW2.

. . . are we talking from established players or new characters? I have a friend basically laughing his lil behind off when I floated the suggestion the grind was more aggressive in Guild Wars 2 than on his server.

He also has cried on a shoulder some raid nights going “why, why why do I have to keep trying to beat this . . . oh, right, equipment”.

Mordalus.8146:

2. particle effects too heavy (one shot in zergs because can’t see boss telegraphing)
3. zerker build only viable build in pve
4. instance ownership griefing

Re #2 – Need option to turn particle effects off. REALLY miss that about my EQ days.

Re #3 – Only? No.

Re #4 – Yes, well, that needs to get some attention. Seriously.

Azure Prower.8701:

I think people are missing the point how ever. That being the sore lack of content lately and the massive increase in grind. The grind is so bad now. You have to ask what is the point of it any more?

You say do some thing you enjoy playing. But how many times can do you do that some thing with out variety until you despise doing that after the thousandth time? The game is limiting what you can do and what you can enjoy in game by tagging on grind after grind.

Where did the grind get tagged onto so you don’t enjoy anything? So far a lot of the stuff I enjoyed is more or less still fun. Well, except for SAB but that’s because it seemed they floored the accelerator on difficulty in World 2. (Which, interestingly, is close to how old games with this retro feel were back in the day. One steep step up in difficulty after another. Except for Ghosts and Goblins. Screw you, Capcom. Screw. You.)

Anyway, grind. Assuming you just ignore Ascended gear (and, if you’re not going to go delving into Fractals, why get it?) like most people on seeing the shopping list for one item . . . what exactly are you grinding for again?

Also @ gaspara: I stopped playing pretend a long time ago. There are also better online games out there to play pretend in.

I recommend Minecraft. Or Starbound.

Calae.1738:

My guess is that Arenanet couldn’t generate enough revenue from the ideas of the manifesto.

Their current strategy is very similar to mobile games and facebook games. Long tedious and boring grinds that can be shortened in exchange for money.

This business model is terrible and doesn’t earn a good reputation amongst passionate gamers. That’s a stain they won’t be able to wash off so easily.

It’s nothing like mobile games or facebook games I play. And if you want me to name a couple I’ll just list three I don’t play anymore – Puzzle Pirates, The Tribez, and Dungeon Hunter. Throw in Spiral Knights because it reached similar issues.

Here’s the thing. There aren’t pay gates to stay powerful, there aren’t nigh-required continuous funds needing to be spent just to get anywhere, nor hidden % chance to proceed (which can be skipped if you just pay $1.99 …) Heck, it’s not even DDO-style pay-for-extras which is a model I have much less issue with (but still won’t touch).

So to compare GW2 to those sort of games . . . ehhh . . . no. Please don’t, because GW2 actually doesn’t reach into your wallet just so you can play with no hassles. No, instead it says “two hours a day in Frostgorge keeps being broke away”.

TooBz.3065:

re: Crystin Cox, it’s absurd to criticize a B2P game that owes its continued success to gameplay monetization for hiring an experience monetization manager. I believe she was hired because she has experience in bringing in the kind of revenue that GW2 needs in order to continue to run servers and deliver a reasonable profit. She was not a plant, she’s one of the few people who knows how to do this.

Servers need uptime so people can play, uptime isn’t cheap. Also investors and backers need to get some return, so . . . they need to find things to draw people to actually buy gems as opposed to just logging in and leaving.

I’d think if they got some of the concept artists and 3D modelers to work on a rotation of armor skins more often we’d see an increase. Also less complaints about “ascended gear treadmill”, “Scarlet’s Story”, or “asuran punting gambling rings”.

No, wait, that last was something else. Oops.

Seriously, if it played to more cosmetic and general convenience stuff? Might get people to pay for it. Also fun lil romp areas like Queen’s Gauntlet and Tower of Nightmares for people to go work on. Maybe something new in Orr to do. For a change, you know.

And finally, more Mursaat.

Shriketalon.1937:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

We also used to assist the extreme religious fanatics known as the White Mantle, take sides in a civil war we had no stake in, take part in the extermination of refugees who weren’t human just because they were in the way, and help unleash doom on the world twice over thinking we were saving it.

I believe that’s known as “leaving humanity’s mark on history”.

You do have a fair point. Just pointing out, with the right interpretation of events . . . Tyria doesn’t have “heroes”, it has murderous thugs who run around changing things and letting other people pick up the mess.

So, if the world’s a mess enough for “one errant weed” to stir up this much trouble? I blame great-great grandpa Tobias and all the others like him who did things like, oh, free the king of the dead and leave him in power to take over lands with a power vacuum in them?

Shriketalon.1937:

We used to fight ancient liches unleashing titanic doom upon the world, murderous spirits hellbent on clawing his way back to the land of the living, a fallen deity and his armies of darkness, and legions of dragonspawn consuming the world. Now it takes us over a year to kill an upstart vegetable. How heroic.

We also used to assist the extreme religious fanatics known as the White Mantle, take sides in a civil war we had no stake in, take part in the extermination of refugees who weren’t human just because they were in the way, and help unleash doom on the world twice over thinking we were saving it.

How heroic.

Then there’s the whole “queenmaking” in Kryta, a nation our characters weren’t even native to . . . the ethnic cleansing we assisted in in Cantha . . .

Who are the good guys supposed to be again?

Soulstar.7812:

Mr. E = Evon Gnashblade

If this turned out to be true I’d probably call shenanigans on the writers for squarely pulling it from someplace dark and cramped.

Have No Faith In Me.1840:

The game was NOT released with ascended gear, and was never meant to introduce a new tier of gear (see manifesto, see players, see gw2 pre release interviews, see gw1), especially one that is so ridiculously long/hard to obtain.

Why bring GW1 into this? It’s not remotely the same style of game, and at its inception was intended to be primarily PvP with PvE to just fill time.

And the release without Ascended as a tier meant things are more-or-less balanced so Exotic is all you really need.

All of this time gated ascended gear makes playing an alternate character undesirable, because they don’t have optimal gear, and if you want to get optimal gear for them, you have to wait a month or more, per gear set, per character, that is RIDICULOUS. It is impossible to gear all your characters out now. Even collecting a second set of gear stats is a chore, yes, a chore.

Again, you don’t even need to go grind to Ascended gear unless you’re after Agony Resistance for Fractals. Exotic is plenty good enough (and fairly easy to acquire), and even Rare is actually serviceable (and DEFINITELY easier to acquire).

But you know what GW2 is doing right, these days? Not throwing all their eggs into one part of the game (“For the foreseeable future we will only be doing content updates for WvW”).

Meriem.3504:

ricky markham.8173:

you know of all the things in living story he is a bright spot. i love watching his dialogues

They need to polish this shard of gold instead of the kitten they keep investing in.

Is it weird I think this one was pretty much done by chance? It feels kinda like the attachment people had to Gwen way back in the day.

Traveller.7496:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I don’t expect the storytelling to be awesome as if it were written by George R.R. Martin and don’t get upset when it turns out to be more like Stephen King.

Stephen King is awesome. I simply wish it would be at least as good as the storyline and writing of GW1.

Stephen King is formulaic at times, and his best writing isn’t in his long forms but in his short forms. I love his short stories, and find his novellas at least well-written if not his best work . . . but his novels? “The Tommyknockers” was nowhere near as tightly written as his novellas.

Don’t get me wrong, I respect a guy who can write as much as he does and make a living off it. But I think his best work is shorter forms – much like the Guild Wars team seems to have a better grasp of small parts rather than an overarching whole.

And I would say the writing and storyline of GW2 is definitely better than the base writing of Guild Wars: Prophecies.

Cliff.8679:

Anyway, this has gotten way offtopic and is better served in the huge thread about this issue. I don’t want to hijack this one. Obviously there’s a difference of opinion, and hopefully they’ll learn from the feedback they’ve gotten in both the personal story and living story’s to craft better storytelling experiences for us in the future that everyone can enjoy.

Agreed it veered off topic . . . and I stopped posting in the thread because very little discussion (like ours) actually happens.

But then, I have a simple self-guidance. I don’t expect the storytelling to be awesome as if it were written by George R.R. Martin and don’t get upset when it turns out to be more like Stephen King.

Shriketalon.1937:

Yes, she is capricious, maniacal, self absorbed, and a generally narcissistic sociopath. Yet at the same time, vast armies across the world are bending over backwards to give her troops and resources, with the only two motivations being “she gives us nice stuff” and “if we don’t become her suicide soldiers, she’ll be mean to us”.

I think that’s oversimplifying the matter. From what I can see, the Aetherblades are her suicide soldiers because Mai Trin screwed up and tipped her hand too early. The Molten Alliance was formed, but we don’t know anything about how it came to be. It could have been her beating them around until they agreed . . . or it could have been her demonstrating something for them and some of both sides saying “you know she has a point”. The Toxic Alliance is probably the oddest one but the presence of holy relics makes it hard to say how they’d react.

(It is worth noting none of the factions are wholly changed, except maybe the Nightmare Court, but then that place seemed the province of an entirely different self-centered evil sylvari in the first place.)

Also, at least two of her factions (twisted watchwork and steam creatures) were not “alive” in any sense and appear to just be enslaved through knowing the root operator commands.

And thus, everyone obeys Scarlet ‘cause "she’s just that smart", resulting in an entire year’s time spent fighting a single Sylvari without even knowing what she’s planning. It’s been a complete waste of time, waste of lore, and a waste of perfectly good villainous factions bending over backwards to cater to one maniac who’s long overdue for a good dose of gasoline and matches.

Like I said, it’s not been shown how the two Alliances were put together. You posited one thing, it could be another. Far as I can tell, the Toxic Alliance didn’t really obey Scarlet so much as go “okay, we’ll do that, thanks, now get lost”. Scarlet isn’t there except for voices and the little abandoned lab, much like the Molten Alliance seemed to only have their own people in control of the Weapons Factory . . . and the ones coming out of invasion portals I presume to be remnants being drawn in by Scarlet because she might give them a chance to get a foothold.

Of course, we are comparing Scarlet’s whole arc so far to lore in which another xenophobic race of fanatics listened to outsiders who were exceedingly powerful and thus marched across all the human kingdoms setting fire to everything along the way until the equivalent of a nuclear bomb was set off to turn them back. Or the case in which two warring societies would not stop fighting each other long enough to handle a very serious threat trying to snuff them both out. Or where an entire nation was converted into shock troops for a religious fanatic who didn’t care if any of her human allies lived so long as her god was unleashed on the world.

So it’s not like this sort of thing hasn’t happened before . . .

Cliff.8679:

This one’s one of my favorites. Quick Google image search of “Trahearne” was all I needed. Perfectly encompasses the whole idea of the PC not even being there. The dialogue is directed at Trahearne even though you’re the one talking. This is from the mission that also has the final cutscene after defeating the boss not even feature the PC whatsoever, and instead includes all of the NPCs praising Trahearne for defeating the big bad lich.

. . . and you’re the first person to reply with a screenshot to me where I could go research the point in question. And I have no idea about Kekt but it appears he’s Priory. Makes sense to be focused on Traherne.

But in the same mission:

Crusader Afanen: We’ll take things from here, Commander. I’ll make sure Trahearne gets back to Concordia safely.

So it’s a mixed bag.

And like I said, I agree, I think it’s wrong for players to say that “Trahearne stole my glory,” and it’s more accurate to say that the story itself is written in such a way that it happily demotes the player to a supporting character while Trahearne becomes the star of the show, and the fact that NPCs and our PCs alike constantly trip over one another to talk about how incredible he is gets very old, very fast. Just take a look at nearly every PC dialogue option for “Charm” that you have when interacting with him. That’s a terrible way to do a personal story that’s “really all about you.” Especially when the star character doesn’t have a single quality that warrants him being the star. Trahearne is more of a recipient than a thief, in my eyes.

It’s really weird because it didn’t feel to me like I was ever playing second fiddle to Traherne. Sure, they do talk about how he has the accomplishments of being a Firstborn Sylvari (fact, not opinion, and of variable weight since they’re still young) . . . that he studied Orr and the Risen (and managed to not get killed, which once you run around in Orr for five minutes suggests he was decent about stealth),

In the same vein, your character gets venerated just about as much. You at least get acknowledgement of the Orders on reaching the second battle at Claw Island for wrangling people there. And it’s your success which drives the Pact to be created, and the representatives ALL show you respect after it’s over.

Seriously, from what I’ve seen it sets up the story so the Commander is increasingly known more for getting the job done after the Marshall posts the orders.

lordkrall.7241:

I love all these complaint about her being “introduced into the living story rather abruptly and for no reason”, simply because that is complete bullkitten.

We had hints MONTHS before she turned up that she existed, basically since the very start of the Living Story.
It was not something thrown in just with the QJ release, it was something hinted about in more or less every single release before that.

Yes, but the issue is it was BADLY hinted at since the follow up to Frost and Flame left that thread behind and was immediately followed by Dragon Bash, the whiplash throwing a lot of people off.

It wasn’t even a name until the end of “Sky Pirates of Tyria”, with no hint it even connected to the Molten Alliance anywhere. So naturally people weren’t making the connection and when it was revealed she was behind it in her invasions? People thought it came out of nowhere because there was no hint the person involved was Scarlet OR even one of her flunkies (quite possibly Mai Trin as the “city slicker”).

There is a term in the role-playing community known as a “Mary Sue”.

Which applies less and less. She’s not infallible, and we have beaten her. She’s increasingly less “perfect” than she seemed, since all she does is seemingly get bored with her “toys” when things go awry.

She has real, obvious flaws to her which might not matter in game mechanics or such but are incredibly problematic for someone wanting to be as feared as she seems to desire. She’s capricious, she’s dismissive of anyone not seen as her intellectual equal (which is to say, everyone else), and puts a lot of value on spectacle over substance.

Every time we beat her so far, it’s because she essentially left a thread which could be pulled on to unravel things. Most of which is underestimating the assembled opponents. I don’t think she expected the antitoxin to be developed and deployed anywhere near as fast as it was. The last instance for the Nightmare Ends suggests she actually bailed out and left things active in her hidden lair rather than clean it up and escape.

kta.6502:

shonefob.7091:

If we do clense Orr eventually down the line of the living story, who is the rightful owner? I would guess either the Charr or humans but would that reinstate conflict between them? Charr technically won the fight but it is also the land of the human gods. Or would it be an entirely different deal where it is just open game for everyone. I imagine nations would want the land though given the powerful magic there.

I smell DRAMA! I guess ol’ Trahearne should of thought of solution to this BEFORE cleansing Orr. LOL!

Except Orr needed to be cleansed in order to curtail the dragon’s influence over it. You know, the thing we had to beat back just to begin having this argument? Worrying about who gets to grab the prize while the big threat is still unbeaten and almost regarded as an insurmountable challenge even for the Pact?

Though to be fair, there’s a current piece of fiction being brought into public consciousness where someone was negotiating away treasure they didn’t have to people who had no claim on it, to get transportation to a place they almost didn’t find, while having no plan how to handle things when they actually got there.

Cliff.8679:

Yeah, no, sorry. A single example doesn’t “dropkick that interpretation in the teeth” when there are far more examples in the other direction.

I got more, and you’ve probably noticed at least one other. I have others through the missions in Orr (and probably will have to gather more as I get to do other paths). I still have yet to have one example screenshot be posted where you are clearly getting sidelined in the story in favor of Traeherne, despite doing the work.

Not one.

ArenaNet has even come out and admitted that they need to do a better job with this in other threads that have brought up similar issues. But hey, if you don’t have an issue with it, that’s great.

I didn’t say I don’t have an issue, or that they couldn’t do better. I said I haven’t seen the blatant “he stole my glory” people keep bringing up.

As for NPCs remembering you in the living story, I don’t think that’s even worth mentioning as being an example of the PC being positioned well within the story. Could you imagine playing any story where every time you met the same character, they had no idea who you were?

. . . I only remember one time (and it was patched) in the Queen’s Gauntlet where Rox and Braham’s dialogue was very generic. VERY. Any other time I could literally watch one dialogue screen get replaced by the other and see Countess Anise go basically “hey I know who you are” to Tobias.

I’m more concerned we had no idea who the heck Captain Evon Gnashblade was as a character until he shouldered his way into the whole “Cutthroat Politics” bit. He was (from what I recall) a static NPC who got a little bit to talk about but no sense of who he was . . . compared to Ellen Kiel, who we knew and knew us from other adventures.

Gabby.3205:

Regarding credit stealing, I’m with Tobias here. I don’t care for what a bunch of nameless npcs think.
If they think that Trahearne saved them, good for them. They know how an army works (was it Napoleon that won so many battles, or his commanders?).
All I care about is for what the important npcs think of me. Trahearne is forever grateful and lets you know all the time that he wouldn’t have gotten anything done if it wasn’t for you. I don’t need nameless npcs knowing who I am and what I did if the Marshal of the Pact knows and praises me for that.

It’s not quite what I’m saying. The NPCs know you’re responsible. They do respect you, even though they follow Traeherne, you are recognized as important to things getting done. More than a few times in the last chapter, the NPCs will say things like what’s linked in the image below.

They know your push, your support of the forces on the front, is what allows the Marshall’s planning and orders to succeed. That is the glory which Traeherne does not get.

Now, Kiel? She’s been around for over a year (real time) and one of the repeated things is she sees you coming and goes “oh, I am glad you’re around to help”. She trusts in you to be able to get things done even if you’re not Lionguard.

I’m relatively certain when (not if) Scarlet is finally taken down it’ll be followed with Braham and Rox saying how much they are glad they had a chance to be with you in the process.

Cliff.8679:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I didn’t get a council seat, and I didn’t get a camp named after me in Southsun, and before someone adds to it, I am not Marshall of the Pact. I also don’t want any of those things. Politics, as Evon Gnashblade found out, is a nasty business . . . Southsun is someplace I never want to set foot again . . .

. . . and the Pact is better served with a leader who doesn’t go get distracted by some overgrown weed and snakes in Kessex Hills. Or the Mist War.

I’ve noticed people tend to articulate the nature of the “stealing credit” poorly and point to how different characters are “rewarded” in the story over our own. It’s less about characters themselves intentionally “stealing” credit, and more that the story acknowledges them more than it does you. For example, the personal story mission in the ruins where the NPCs go on and on about being rescued by Trahearne, while you were the one who actually made things happen. Or when you defeat the boss, and the cutscene following is filled with the characters praising Trahearne for taking him down while you don’t have a single line in the entire cutscene. Or when you kill Zhaitan, and the group of NPCs who say something along the lines of “Three cheers for Trahearne!” and afterwards, one goes “And don’t forget the commander!” And that’s it.

I’m going to do it, again. Linked is something which pretty much dropkicks that interpretation in the teeth.

Quoting: “You’re an inspiration, Commander. Many believe that if we can defeat Zhaitan, Jormag will be next. Your deeds bring great hope to the norn.”

YOUR deeds. Not TRAEHERNE’S, not the Pact, YOURS.

The game absolutely does a very poor job of properly positioning the PC in the story in a way that’s congruent with his/her actions and accomplishments, opting instead to elevate the roles the NPCs play.

Yes and no.

Hero of Shaemoor. Slayer of Issormir. Both of these persist into Living Story, even if it’s throwaways. Countess Anise remembered Tobias during the Queen’s Gauntlet. Also, Braham and Rox do a great job of remembering you and basically going “hey, we’re going to come along, this looks like fun”.

Personal story, however, due to the modular nature of how it proceeds, has the early accomplishments (Chapters 1, 2, and 3) almost disappear as soon as they leave into the broader world (the Order chapters). At the end, Crusader Deborah (sis?!) didn’t even know I existed despite saving her from imprisonment.

Traveller.7496:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You say this like it’s a common occurrence. I haven’t had any non-comical NPCs take credit for things my characters have done, yet.

I’d like you to meet Trahearne and Kormir.

Although I guess we can debate whether or not Trahearne is meant for comic relief.

He’s not, and don’t get started on Kormir because that’s a different person entirely than the Hero of Shaemoor/Slayer of Issormir/Valiant/Snaff Prize Winner. Also, that Tobias was well rewarded for going to the Realm of Torment and back, what with a goddess being known personally just in case.

Stooperdale.3560:

“You say this like it’s a common occurrence. I haven’t had any non-comical NPCs take credit for things my characters have done, yet.”

Really? Anyone who logs on for the first time tomorrow has effectively the same progress in the living story as you do. That’s because the living story updates through world characters rather than player characters. Kiel has a camp named after her for exploring Southsun, she’s captured an aetherblade ship, and taken a seat on Lion’s Arch council. Did you get any credit for that?

Yes.

I didn’t get a council seat, and I didn’t get a camp named after me in Southsun, and before someone adds to it, I am not Marshall of the Pact. I also don’t want any of those things. Politics, as Evon Gnashblade found out, is a nasty business . . . Southsun is someplace I never want to set foot again . . .

. . . and the Pact is better served with a leader who doesn’t go get distracted by some overgrown weed and snakes in Kessex Hills. Or the Mist War.

Traveller.7496:

Great, more characters to steal the spotlight from the player character. Watch us kill Scarlet and these morons take the credit after standing around while we destroy hordes of mobs.

You say this like it’s a common occurrence. I haven’t had any non-comical NPCs take credit for things my characters have done, yet.

MauricioCezar.2673:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Dear Rata Sum,

We do not need asura except as bait, or to make sure a gate doesn’t explode. Again.

Sincerely,
Tobias

Only to remember YOU, asurans was just THE KEY into the destiny edge history. Without snaff, no one champion would be killed. And remember, that snaff had taken control over Kralkatorrik mind.

While Logan, runned away f*ing with everyone. Only to remember hehe

Snaff is rather much a dragon snack right now, so I dunno if preaching about how useful he was to the effort is a good idea.

But no, please, leave the insufferable geniuses at home. We took care of at least one dragon champion without their direct assistance . . . the norn and Ebon Vanguard were much more useful, not to mention the dwarves. (Rest their stone hearts.) And no gods either so the charr don’t need to posture about how they’re awesome without them.

Just roll out the armor columns and artillery under Gear Warband, get the Slayer of Issormir sober, and recruit from the Lionguard. We’ll get the real heroes to Primordius in no time.

And by real heroes, I of course mean Ho-ho Tron and his faithful comedic sidekick, that spoony bard.

Dear Rata Sum,

We do not need asura except as bait, or to make sure a gate doesn’t explode. Again.

Sincerely,
Tobias

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

(. . . Ascalon is next.)

…not gonna happen, Tobi. :-/

You say that now . . .

But we all know it’s going to happen. How else do you think we get authentic charr plushies, made from real charr hide?

Toroxus.9256:

I like the idea of Trahearne, but he needed to be fleshed out more. The scene at Artisan Waters could have been amazing if we sympathized with him more. And it wasn’t his character that I didn’t like, it was that there was so little to his character.

Indeed, this kind of was the problem I had. I mean, it was powerful but not because of Trahearne’s involvement. It was because this was the next step my character had towards putting down Zhaitan. Helping Trahearne cleanse Orr was a necessary move forward, not to mention that whole thing about reclaiming one of the old human kingdoms from ruin.

(. . . Ascalon is next.)

Kain Francois.4328:

Spiuk.8421:

Kain Francois.4328:

If Kormir wields Abaddon’s power, then maybe she could redeem herself as a character if she commands over his demon army and titans. What a twist that could be!

Scarlet is more interesting.

Kormir’s army of redeemed margonites seem to disagree with you.

When they start being more present than Scarlet’s little toy alliances and minions, I’ll try to be more interested in them. Until then, they’re just a fan theory which is intriguing but not real.

Though to be fair, Tixx’s runamok toys are more interesting than Scarlet for many.

narrock.6890:

objectively bad

I don’t think you know what this means. I also keep seeing people refer to things they don’t think anyone else can like as “objectively bad” when it’s really more of an opinion they find a lot of people agree with them on.

“Objectively bad” is “Eye of Argon”, “Deadly Towers”, or “Manos, Hands of Fate”.

“Subjectively bad” is “Guild Wars 2”, “World of Warcraft”, or “League of Legends”.

xarallei.4279:

I am afraid now they will nerf this because of people complaining.

I’m not worried.

It’s brought up in a cycle every so often since the Queensdale Train got popular to be noticed. (It was done before champion loot for the karma and event credit, to be noted.)

I also don’t really do it all that much, I like to do my play elsewhere. When I do indulge, it’s until the Behemoth spawns, then I jump to the World Boss Tyrian Tour A lot more fun.

I had a great time. It was some of the most fun I’d had in a while playing the game, even during the last two weeks of SBI’s matchups.

However, if everyone wants “PvE players” to stay away, then maybe it was a disappointment after it was over. Disappointment brought about by “teh hardcore” wanting to keep it all to themselves.

Vaxx.3178:

Worse -

EQ1 orginal, no expansion. Rangers were kitten to hell. Bows did horrible damage, their heals were pitiful, there dps was subpar, they fit nowhere in the group. From what I heard this changed after some time, but it reminds of the Rangers in GW2.

I played a ranger with first release of EQ1. It was . . . underwhelming. So was the magician, my second class. (I really pick the bad classes, don’t I?) Both were good for solo play but until much later nobody wanted rangers due to every other class doing things better than them . . . and nobody wanted mages because the pathing in a couple places could make the pet act up and thus they became loathed for “causing trouble”.

It got a little better mechanically but mostly as a ranger I was just called to off tank until Planes of Power when rangers became much more powerful. A server I was on had a team of six rangers which was “Team Killsteal” on raids – they’d ranged DPS bosses until 11% or so then burn all their disciplines and outdamage even the heavy hitters unless they went for it too.

etrigan.4213:

Dat kitten .7091:

you coming online today, SBI? I was excited for some fights today

Their fair weathers have disappeared.

This may be the end lol

I was on all morning until I had to stop for food before working my shift. However, it was worth it.

Stooperdale.3560:

The old Everquest I pets were quite funny because the pathing was bad and they wandered all over the place. They also picked up aggro on every monster that saw them, and I seem to remember the master inheriting the aggro once the pet died. Quite literally 40 monsters including named bosses could turn up at once and murder everything.

And yet, Magicians were incredibly powerful if you learned the idiosyncrasies of the pet AI and how to get it to do what you wanted it to do. Dem water pets with backstab…

Rangers, on the other hand, were incredibly more melee-oriented until you could Alt-Advance some bow bonuses and Endless Quiver. Imagine if you will, fellow rangers, having to keep one arrow for each shot you make. That means each shot of Rapid Shot, too. Each Barrage. That was the EverQuest ranger.

On the other hand, they were incredibly broken for a short time in melee with a 3 dmg / 13 delay blunt weapon in both hands. “Moss Covered Twig”, dual wielded, and you could spam attacks faster than anything else AND outagro the healer keeping you standing up. Aside from that there was some actual use to them as off-tanks and for a long length of the game they were real good at solo play.

So, mixed bag there.

As for a game in which they were unequivocally bad? The old SSI AD&D games. Gold Box and otherwise. There just wasn’t much point to the class.

Super Kruegs.8967:

I know right. SBI making it real hard to hate them with all their bringing it. They don’t blob like TC or T1, they don’t tower hug, they bring fights, hardly any up levels, they bring it on all maps, not making excuses. aghhh I’m actually kind of liking them.

It’s been a blast, and hanging out on the TS has me giving new respect for the art of controlling a moving army. Not a zerg, per se, because they actually work on a tactical level other than “have more than other, then win”. Seriously.

And even if Bay on SBI BL seems really hard to take at all times, and our commanders have this fascination with taking it despite the REALLY stiff resistance built up around it, it’s been fun. Like the 15 minute fight for that supply camp there, where we couldn’t clear FA out enough to capture but weren’t getting wiped.

Cheers folks. I’ll have to play WvW more often if this sort of fun keeps up. Because it’s way more fun to me than TF2 was, even if I’m also terrible

Krispy.7809:

I dont think I want to finish leveling my first character, because every time in the story now its Trahearne the “Great Hero” that I have to serve, its not even about me anymore its his story and how he becomes a legend. Im going to switch to sylvari to see if maybe the story will be mine through out, but if its trahearne again im not going to be able to listen to hours of how trahearne gets everything while im “cheering” him on, when I wish I could make him disapear.

You posted this in a thread where people already have mentioned he shows up in the Sylvari personal storyline earlier. So, you already should know he shows up . . .

Also, he’s not the great hero and while he may get recognition so will the Commander. Seriously, I don’t get how people think this is entirely glory for him when you are continuously told by NPCs you interact with how much your help meant to them and how great your efforts are.

(Except for Zojja, but she’s asura and thus needs to be punted to Elona. I mean, thus she is forgiven.)

islarose.7356:

Worth noting, we don’t know where the story is going, how it will tie in, or really anything regarding Anet’s plans for a character they’ve made quite an effort to include on a regular basis. The end result could redeem the complaints some of the players have. Maybe not, but let’s not promote this idea of scrapping all of the content to be left with months of nothing, and throw the baby out with the bathwater in our haste.

The people who heap the hate on Scarlet and throw out any counter-arguments with “but she sucks” aren’t going to care about where the story goes. And to be honest, I can’t blame them. I’ve skipped many TV series because a character just outright bugs me and they get enough screentime for me to want to shout “GTFO” at it.

Everyone knows what I’m talking about, even if they don’t watch TV currently, they probably did at some time. Or a movie. Or read a book where there was that one character . . . even if it turns out they were completely integral to the plot, there is not enough to overlook how annoying they were.

. . . see also “Wesley Crusher”.

I get why people don’t like Scarlet. I have a low tolerance for “quirky” myself. But for me, the hallucinating visions/voices in Tower of Nightmares (“What if your sister could see you now?”) pulled things a little more out of the trash for me. And I’m . . . not entirely sure she was actually there and not a hallucination.

Dead Muppet.9718:

1. i think most rangers play this stupid build because we are basically forced 30 points into wilderness survival for empathic bond. Otherwise in this current condi meta you would be eaten alive.

Not my cup of tea and would hope there would be more options then this. Feel Free to post any that dont involve 30 into wilderness survival.

You could just put on a Signet of Renewal and drop a condition every 10 seconds? Or use it if you get a lot stacked on you then switch your pet out to clean it up? I don’t actually use Empathic Bond, though I’m starting to think “Hide in Plain Sight” might be worth resetting my traits.