Guild Wars 2

Just to share my experience..

I have 4 level 80s, about 1000 hours invested and about 8k kills in WvW. That should give some sort of idea on my time invested.

I have never gotten an exotic drop, and I can literally count the number of rares I have received on one hand. That is.. a lot of playtime to be receiving that kind of reward. I am all for having exotics drop a very, very small percentage of the time. However, at 1k hours played, I dont feel like I should be able to remember each individual instance I have received the third best level of gear (rare). It seems a bit off to me.

Then again, it is well known to me that the RNG holds a pretty intense grudge. He is a mean, mean guy :\

TogoChubb.3984:

Ugh…still at work. Score update please?

DH: 188,111
HoD: 169,477
GoM: 166,960

Sororita.3465:

probably have you in a screen shot somewhere lol, i take quite a few, if youre not a full size norn or charr then i wouldnt probably see you lol.

nope, not in any of them.

Aww.. Well, the journey continues! (That was very nice of you to look, btw, thank you)

Aww.. Well, the journey continues! (That was very nice of you to look, btw, thank you)To make it more difficult, I am an asura.. The plot thickens..

Aww.. Well, the journey continues! (That was very nice of you to look, btw, thank you)To make it more difficult, I am an asura.. The plot thickens..edit: weird buggy forums..

MarzAttakz.9608:

Nah all good man, I like your zone philosophy, sub-consciously I think I do this too but need to pay more attention to it. I know I’m not going to be dealing out damage like the heavies and thieves but try to, like you say, provide as much disruption to each zone as I pass through it.

I’ll list my gear tomorrow as it’s 5am and I’m a little tired after battling Seafarer’s Rest and Vizunah for 8 hours!

Thanks for your reasoning, very good way to structure your fights, it’s something I’ll be sharing with my guild and the parties I lead.

I am honored you have found such value in the philosophy. You can use it to great effect in groups too, by assigned each individual a zone that they will focus on, or if a melee/close combat, the zone rotation. I find it is easiest to organize by the map (nw zone, nnw zone, n zone, etc) than situational perspective (zone 1 is the one furthest away and to the left and so on). Can be very effective And once you practice it for a while, you can start manipulating the zones with different strategies where you can actually strongly manipulate the flow of battle.

While the goal of this build was to go without ANY arcana, that first minor trait has been taunting me.. My build here is obviously very, very focused on fury to remain viable. I mean, come on! That first minor trait is 2 seconds of fury for every attunement change.. So! I modified it a bit to include 10 points into arcana, while doing my best to maintain the overall spirit, stats, capabilities, and playstyle of the original build. This is the current incarnation:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fEQQJAoYlEGSu3cQ5AOCBA5xJwUyoQICFPYRpwMA

it is 0/20/10/30/10

First off, I wouldnt be surprised if this build has been posted before (or quite frankly, the build in the OP). I like to explore builds on my own and have really only looked at a few in the forums. Apologies if this is all repeated ad nauseum!

The stats are roughly the same, with a bit less critical damage (65% vs 75% of the original) and less crit chance (5% less, negated by using sigil of accuracy on offhand). The 10% drop in crit damage is negated by a couple stacks of might generated from the major trait in arcana.

However, the boon duration is substantially better for obvious reasons. Fury stacks like mad (get it? heh..), usually being the boon with the longest duration on it at any given time. While it dips its toes into the arcana line, overall I do feel better using it to an extent. Even for just five points, it boosts my fury generation to a huge degree.

The ten points in earth could even be used in air. Those are kind of points that could go elsewhere and I will be experimenting with it further. Even without any investment into earth, the armor is roughly 200 less than the original build, so not much. Though, you lose the attunement toughness bonus obviously.

You might also notice that I have pain inverter (asura racial) on there as one of my utilities. I have been messing around with it quite a bit lately, and find that it blends in flawlessly with how a d/d ele runs. IMO, the d/d ele is a spectacular PvP tank. They are flashy, move a lot, and attract a TON of attention from enemies. Because of this, we can generate aggro pretty efficiently. When you mix pain inverter into that, it is incredibly effective (it grants retaliation and confusion in an AoE, on a 30s cooldown). Try it out if you are an asura!

Thanks again for reading and the input, I look forward to more constructive feedback and conversation!

Sororita.3465:

Tuluum.9638:

I agree, my mission to find myself in a screenie is not going well. I rely on all of you to capture me “in the wild!” My quest depends on your tenacity and bravery in the face of combat! We shall prevail!

first off id like to apologize because im not quite sure who everyone is yet ( only been playing 2 weeks) so i presume you’re GoM? And is Tuluum your in game name too?

Hehe, I edited to add more info. I wouldnt worry too much about it, I am kidding! I do look for myself in screenies though. There really isnt anything I can do beyond actually organizing a picture, lol. And where would the fun be in that?

My main is Tuluumen, though I have several other characters at 80. I am on DH and have enjoyed this match up tremendously. I wont claim to be particularly great as a player, but hope I have given some of you a run for your money. I sure have learned a lot.

im also quite forgetful.

What were we talking about again? Lost my train of thought..

Sororita.3465:

this thread needs more screen shots imo:

1. dh in our choke point.
2.took 5 dh about 2-3 mins to kill me in jp.
3.4 GoM defends versus 20 DH, early morning.
4. thick of early morning combat.
5. early morning combat continued, i wish that was a real hit.
6. we tried to hold on to valley but there were too many Dh, too few GoM

I agree, my mission to find myself in a screenie is not going well. I rely on all of you to capture me “in the wild!” My quest depends on your tenacity and bravery in the face of combat! I am on DH, and seem to be the only one in my guild logging in anymore, though I am very elusive with me d/d ele.

Together, we shall prevail!

ahem..

Pic 1: I love that choke point, from either side it is almost guaranteed a great and continuous battle.

In response to pic 5: Engie is OP!! 255k damage in one hit? OP!! or hacker!! I fling all similar accusations in your general direction. Come take a picture of me to negate this ugly slander.

:D

MarzAttakz.9608:

I’ve been running a 0/25/0/25/20 build the last few days, not gonna bother posting the exact gear right now but it was around 18k hp, 2600 armour, 30% crit without fury and 50% crit damage with around 250 healing power.

Personally I enjoyed the increase in damage numbers but EU tier 1 is mostly massive zerg fights of 30-40+. Simple things like capping camps often involve a minimum of 5-10 opponents and to be honest I require EA to survive the heavy frontline fights.

Today I switched back to 0/20/0/20/30 and the net result while loosing damage was staying in the battle longer which balances out in the long run. I do miss being able to share auras and the longer boon duration from my other armour set but it is a fair trade off in my books.

Its not just a fair trade off, overall I think the capabilities of the arcana bunker are superior. I was curious before starting all this if there really werent any other options, but I found one I enjoyed more than the arcana bunker. For some reason, I really love the “chance” aspect to this build and I find it perfectly viable for my playstyle/environment. You dont have to list everything, but were you using a mix of gear? I like the damage too 2700 atk with 75% crit damage and the plus damage traits yields some very fine numbers! Lightning auto attack consistently does 2k-2.5k damage a crit on lvl 80 opponents with lower health.

To survive in the larger scale battles, I tend to split the enemy zerg into “sectors.” I will essentially try to do one CC and two AoE before moving on to the next sector. The goal is to essentially get out of sight and range of the first sector (at least melee and AoE going on in the first area) and attack the second. With something like a 50 man zerg, I will end up having quite a few sectors to say the least and I will just rotate through them, retreating/RTL/etc when I have to heal. I also try to designate a “safe zone” of sorts where I can easily heal then queue up a churning earth. I will try to keep the battle away from this spot, but close enough for easy access.

Even in say a smaller scale (2/3vs 10) I will try to split the group up into two sectors then attack them/control their movement with CC, alternating between the two groups. Ideally, you can split them using terrain, etc. I try to do it in groups of five because of the AoE cap. Sorry for all the editing!

I finally got the issues I was having with javascript worked out and can now post my build! One of my friends wanted to have my take on what build I would play if it wasnt the common arcana-based bunker. I eventually came up with this build, and have ended up sticking with it as I find it to be very fun and occasionally very difficult!

My goal was to create something that was more offense oriented than the arcana bunker builds that are so incredibly effective. I never found much that was as effective, but I believe the following build is effective when faced with actual combat. It is extremely strong at creating a ton of havoc and damage while remaining alive to do it all over again. Usually.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fEQQJAoYhEmgbzR5gjDAUGnAz8gIiHPYREA

0/30/15/25/0

Air: I, VI, XII
Earth: V
Water: III, X
(These do change, but its what I am running right now)

All jewelry is “emerald ori” (pow/pre/tough) with exquisite beryl jewels on everything (pow/crit dam/vit). Also have one of those Ancient Karka Shells.

Valkyrie (pow/crit dam/vit) weapons, chest piece, and boots. Headpiece, shoulder, gloves, and leggings are knight (pow/pre/tough). 6/6 Superior Rune of Rage. On my daggers I use Superior Sigil of Perception and Superior Sigil of Battle (I cant choose between this, accuracy (crit chance), or force (pow)). I do constantly switch to staff as well.

2700 atk (cond dam 175)
~35% crit chance unbuffed and 75% crit damage, ~55% crit chance with fury
2500 armor
17.5k health (healing pow 275)

I tend to use Armor of Earth, Lightning Flash, and Mist Form as my utilities and Glyph of Elementals as my elite. These change situationally though.

The idea is to keep auras up as much as possible because this build almost exclusively depends on getting crits. This is where the arcana line would be beneficial, but “no arcana” is the goal! If you get an unlucky run, things can turn bad real quick. I have to really keep on my toes with this build, but it has enough survivability to stay alive long.. enough.

In my experience, this build in particular, is extremely effective on the battlefield. I dont feel it necessarily compares to the true power of an arcana bunker, but when it comes down to real life engagements I find myself doing very well and having a lot of fun. I am certainly not claiming it to be the best, but it has ended up being the build I actually run with.

I look forward to any constructive feedback you might have I have no doubt there are improvements to be made. Thanks for reading!

edit: Oops, forgot to mention that I mostly play WvW, so that was a large consideration in what I was looking to achieve.

What I am going to suggest is not likely to happen, simply because it would be too resource intensive. Its probably not even the best way to go about it! I still think it would be a neat idea.

Basically, each AoE skill has an individual percentage of how many players it can hit in a given area. Some skills, like lava font, might have something like a 100% hit rate. Meaning, it would be able to hit any amount of players that are on it. Its small, so mechanics wise shouldnt be a huge issue. But, logically, I think lava would damage anyone stepping on it. A skill like meteor shower might still have the cap of 5 per meteor. The skills could be tuned depending on metrics at an individual level, but using a universal system.

A similar, but different mechanic, could be used for explosions. Where the damage is distributed more to those who are closer. Something like the Engineers Big Ol Bomb would do more damage the closer to the explosion you are. It seems a similar mechanic might be in play with some of the skills already (Mesmer GS auto attack for example). This could also start leading to strategies like having someone “jump on the grenade” to soak up the damage for their allies. Though, something like the Big Ol Bomb would be less effectively stopped than the grenade kit or a Thief’s cluster bomb.

Excala, when are you going to throw out a staff vid? I have no doubt I would learn some new trick from it!

Sororita.3465:

just a few screen shots from last night:
(GoM perspective)

Ill eventually find myself in someones picture..

Its a mission now. The quest begins.

@Calae
Just to add, I basically try to get better constantly. Thats not to say I am necessarily “good,” just that that is my goal. I have found myself constantly growing within the confines of the games system, but I also actively seek it out. I guess it is entirely possible that I am one of the “mentally challenged” that you say this system targets, but I find a great deal of depth here especially when you start including group strategies, combo fields, wvw defense/capture strategies, etc. Sparkly things do please me..

I will sometimes go into fights with a specific “practice” agenda too. As in, only offense, only defense, only CC, etc. With something like practicing defensive or CC, I do expect to die, but by using self imposed limits I find I have to really use the skills I have to much greater effect. When it is all brought together, it ideally results in well-rounded gameplay. They are completely different ways to approach each individual fight though.

edit: One thing I think needs a lot of improvement are trait synergies as a whole. Some builds have this great synergy between everything, but most dont. Most professions have just a couple builds that are heads and shoulders above anything else you can do. Improving this would also allow for greater diversity in combat.

Calae.1738:

As a Ranger, I don’t know how you’re going to be able to use the longbow more creatively. That’s my biggest beef about the weapon skills. Some professions are given a useful set of tools that are useful in many situations but, for some others you have to wonder; who were they targeting? The mentally challenged?

I cant honestly give feedback on the ranger. Got one to lvl 10, but thats it. So, forgive my ignorance as far as that goes.

I assume you have access to a second weapon set, as well as utility skills and pet commands. There is likely the “best” rotation as far as damage goes, but situationally is when you start to see the other skills come into play. You also dont have to do the best rotation every time. All you have to do to change your utility skills/weapon is get out of combat. This action alone opens up enormous amounts of versatility (you have access to ALL of your skills this way, not just the three selected for in-combat).

If you are only looking at the skills for one weapon, and dont include all of the other options that are constantly available, it kind of seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Even so, if we just look at those five skills, and say take a five press rotation (five attacks), we get a large amount of different possibilities. It becomes much more restrictive when you start introducing variables, but for any given situation, there will be several different rotations one can use to successfully handle it. Sometimes it may not be so pretty, haha, but its there nonetheless.

This all is negated somewhat by a single attack that simply outperforms the other options. To what degree this happens determines how effective you can still be without using the “best” rotation. The problem is this is handled and balanced on Anet’s end, so we can only play within the system. As far as this is concerned, I think Anet has done an “ok” job, but there is certainly room for improvement to increase rotation versatility.

In the end though, its about victory! And you can attain that without using the single best rotation every time. This allows us as players to approach any given situation with a number of options limited mainly by our own skill and imagination. Some times this makes combat much more complex, interesting, and most of all, dangerous.

This is why I made my ele to be a heavy crit build, though with some survivability. My crit chance isnt that special (~60% with fury and full signet of precision), but my crit damage is almost 80% (if I remember right..). This means that sometimes I am a train of pain running through everything in my path, but just as often, I dont crit at all and have to REALLY adapt quickly or die. My build essentially forces me to think on my feet creatively. Sometimes that big hitting attack might not crit, and will do much less damage than a lesser attack when it does crit. Kind of fun But I know I am wierd, so who knows how much any of this applies to someone else.

For me, the thing that keeps me going is WvW. Everything else has kind of lost my interest. That being said, I greatly enjoy WvW (even if it does have its issues).

There are plenty of “completion” type things you can do though. Check out your character sheet under “Achievements.” I dont personally like that sort of thing, but plenty of people do.

Good thing to do is get full exotics too, if you have not already. Or you can start hoarding gold.

For me, wvw is the way to go.

Calae.1738:

Theres nothing innovative about this combat other than dodge.

Overall, theres really nothing to master. There are no combo systems in place that require precision and timing to execute. The skills are very boring and uninspiring.

Take the Ranger longbow for example.

SKill 1 – autoattack shoot an arrow
Skill 2 – faster version of skill 1 on a cooldown
Skill 3 – shoot an arrow and inflict vulnerability
Skill 4 – pushback shot
SKill 5 – ground targeted AoE

What is there for me to master in this?
What kind of skills can I perfect here?
What is there for me to practice exactly?

It’s almost as brain dead as a first person shooter. Here’s your gun sir, just point and shoot.

I actually dont find dodge to be particularly innovative either. It has been a staple in ARPG games for quite some time.

I think that the limitations that many are putting on the skill system is personally inflicted in many ways though. I do not have as much time as some invested into this game, but I am at ~800 hours with four lvl 80s (ele, necro, engie, thief). My main is the ele. I mostly play wvw.

About 100 hours ago, I thought I had really started to understand the full spectrum of the combat system. I was utilizing combo fields actively, doing guerilla style action and changing weapons and utilities in the middle of a battle, and practicing teamwork and timing with others attacks. I was also doing my builds specifically to the skills and playstyle I intended to use, with as much synergy as possible (ideally balanced to others strengths/weaknesses in the group).

At that point, I felt I had pretty much explored the potential of the combat in the game. However, I was wrong about that. I started to mess around with siege usage in common battles (not just defense/choke point), different strategies to guide the enemy where you want them on the battlefield (wvw obviously), different attack formations when charging into battle (say, d/d eles flank far to the right before engaging, out of FOV, and come up from the right-rear flank), and different ideas to try to harness the chaotic power that is the zerg.

So, at this point, I feel quite differently. I feel like I am just scratching the surface of the creativity and choice that are available to us as players. Even with the weapon sets, I continue to explore ways to use them more creatively. Obviously, that is just my personal preference. I am the type of person to use skills and builds that might not be the most effective just because I find it fun to try out as many options as I can. It stretches my creativity and ability.

Personal experience and opinion will differ from one to another, but for me, combat in this game is extremely enjoyable and continues to test my creativity.

Sheobix.8796:

So, over 7k kills and you claim to have not much experience with wvw. I smell… lie? Also, with 7k kills you would have over 3k badges minimum which could get you a whole blown ptv armor set… yet you also claim to have only few exotic pieces.

My advice wasnt build advice, it was addressing your low WoS numbers and why they were low ticks, which is probably because of lack of gear.

And you think it costs 50g to buy ptv gear? News flash, you cant obtain it with gold.

Why does this feel like a megatroll?

You didnt read my post did you?

Lets clarify some things since we were actually managing to have a real discussion up to this point on something which I personally find very interesting. 7k kills in wvw is minor compared to the claimed numbers of others. I have seen claims of over 15k kills. I do not consider 7k to be a “huge amount of wvw experience” in light of others numbers.

I never said anything about one set of exotics costing 50g. Please read again. I said that if I actually bought full sets of exo gear for every build I try out, it would be at least 50g a day. Also remember, this is not my main. This is one of four characters at lvl 80 for me right now. Obviously, the only way to currently attain PVT gear (that I am aware of at least) is either AC or WvW. Beyond that, to say that I would have “over 3k” badges is a bit disingenuous. Even with lucky runs, I cant recall a time that I consistently got a badge every other kill. Maybe, maybe for an hour at most. I think you would struggle to find many people who have.

Anyway, we still seem to have a completely different topic of conversation, so lets catch up with where the thread actually is right now;

The issue was that the tooltips do not line up consistently with actual damage output. WoS numbers were only perceived as low due to some apparent bugginess. The numbers are completely in line with others experience, when compensating for stats. So, essentially, my numbers are not low. We do not need to figure out why they are “low” as they are inline with others numbers. Still unknown what was causing the initial inflated damage. It also seems to be that the only way to know how a tooltip damage on a specific skill is actually applied is in-combat.

I personally find it interesting and have seen discrepancies on a couple of classes now. I do wonder if they are trying to fix these things (along with other items like mes mantra icons). I actually would be interested if someone has some more info on this specific issue. I havent been able to find much information about this and mostly all I have been met with thus far are people having a completely different conversation and calling me a troll. I hold little hope for productive conversation at this point.. Ill just keep an eye on dev notes.

Thanks to those who contributed

It seems that eles are completely balanced then! Many that play them say they are UP, and many that play against them think they are OP.

:D

In the right hands, eles can be extraordinary with staff, scepter, focus, or dagger.

Atherakhia.4086:

What is the typical glass cannon build? I’m leveling an elementalist after a disastrous first decision to play a ranger. I’m finding the staff has a lot of defensive skills where I could realistically use a GC build and succeed. Especially if I can do it with 15k hp which seems quite simple.

I thought I would share my build with ya. I do not claim it as being optimal, but it is the most fun I have had on my ele. Quite frankly, its the most fun I have had playing games in a long time! Bunker builds (like excala/dapheonix) are probably the optimal, even with the EA nerf. They just arent “dangerous” enough for me :P There are surely refinements to be done with the build, but:

0/15/30/25/0

Air: I, VI, XII
Earth: V
Water: III, X
(These do change, but its what I am running right now)

All jewelry is “emerald ori” (pow/pre/tough) with exquisite beryl jewels on everything (pow/crit dam/vit).

Valkyrie (pow/crit dam/vit) weapons, chest piece, and boots. Headpiece, shoulder, gloves, and leggings are knight (pow/pre/tough). 6/6 Superior Rune of Rage.

2600 atk (cond dam 170)
~60% crit chance (with fury up) and ~75% crit damage
2500 armor
16k health (healing pow 270)

I tend to use Armor of Earth, Lightning Flash, and Mist Form as my utilities and Glyph of Elementals as my elite. These change situationally though.

The idea is to keep auras up as much as possible because this build almost exclusively depends on getting crits. If you get an unlucky run, things can turn bad real quick. I have to really keep on my toes with this build, but it has enough survivability to stay alive long.. enough.

Certainly welcome feedback as long as its not “this other build is totally better.” Yes, yes it is. I wouldnt have it any other way

Sheobix.8796:

okay, ill try to address some issues you’re running into here.

you say you have PTV gear and “some healing power in my accessories”

you do know that accessories are over half of your total gear stat bonus source?

if you don’t have a power major bonus in your accessories, its going to hit like a limp noodle.

secondly, WvW is a game of who is geared and who is not mashed up with who is level 80 and who is not. scaling is a big issue out in the BLs and if you’re letting yourself suffice with only the “conjurer” cheap crap lv80 Rares in the Trading Post like some do, you’re going to get hit in the face by a mosquito and die.

Just to be blunt here, I am not looking for build advice. The issue (as we have figured out) was the tooltip not lining up consistently with damage actually dealt in real time. How the multiplicative damage applies seems to be different even from mes to necro. Interestingly, it seems to have changed specifically when I retraited.

That being said, I seem to do fine in WvW with some level ranges having less than optimal scaling. While I dont have a huge amount of WvW experience, I do have over 7k kills and feel that skill can compensate greatly for gear.

PTV is most useful when used as an armor base with a Death Shroud implemented build. From the information you provided, I’m imagining some guy picking up 5g worth of Conjurer’s X of the Soldier gear, slapping it on, ignoring the soldier crests, letting yourself roll around with sapphire trinkets, and excpecting a 20/0/20/20/x build to make the magic happen from converting from a minion master bunker easybutton build. (that’s what i glean from a 0/0/30/x/x trait spread you noted, nobody gets 30 points in death unless they’re running a bar full of dummies)

Again, I am not looking for build advice. I like to play around with a lot of different builds. If you had read what I posted though, you would have noticed the gear was for a DS build While I enjoy trying different builds, I dont see the need to buy gear every single time I try a new one out (I would be spending well over 50g a day).

I dont use minions.

While the numbers you are reporting are extremely low, They only get better to a certain extent. This class requires a lot of button pressing to work.

Not nearly as much pressing as some other classes! (Im looking at you kit engie and ele). Compared, Necro isnt even remotely close. The numbers I am seeing dont look low, they seem to be right in line with the damage others are doing in proportion to their stat distribution.

The first thing i’d do is ditch the axe. It actually does have a lower DPS curve than the scepter (but is a misnomer because scepter damage is a split ratio through power+cdmg).

I am well aware the axe is not an optimal weapon. I will go ahead and continue to use it though since I enjoy it.

Run with a dagger, find yourself at least 12 crests of the soldier, work in might into your build (no idea if you have already, which is why people are telling you to link your build properly) and start using Lich Form to help burst down large HP baddies since you don’t have any serious gear yet.

my non crits on WoS are 680-700 per tick. My jugg isn’t even fully fully geared yet because im lazy.

Again, the issue has zero to do with my build as we have figured out. I also stated exactly what my build is and why I am not able to use a build calc. I had a lot of confusion with the tooltip, had a misunderstanding of a specific game mechanic. This was exacerbated by my character being bugged in some way (I hadnt played my necro in a few weeks). This also lead to seeing videos where the multiplicative damage IS applied each individual time, but with WoS, the damage stated is a total of all of the hits. Why this specifically changed with a trait switch is unknown to me though.

I appreciate you posting the video. The damage I was doing on a DS tank build before the trait switch was outputting double the damage you are doing in that video. You can see where this would give rise to some confusion.

With all that said, the gap between 80 rares and 80 exotics, at least, is easily covered by skill. I dont even use rares until level 80 as a stop gap while I buy exos. I almost exclusively level using WvW. Even then, if I have a choice, I will buy siege before gear. 60% of the time, it works every time.

The biggest thing that would help DH start unifying is to focus on communications that are accessible to PUGs, which is essentially /map and /team chat.

The attitude thus far (and not just in this game or server) is that everyone should be on voice comms, and if something failed, it was because enough were not participating in said voice comms. The truth is that many want to just play the game, and not have to get extremely involved during their playtime. No effort of any kind has been made to communicate through common means, only proprietary (either get in “x” guild or sign into vent/mumble/ts3/etc). Nor have many actions been taken to actually educate new people through common means and it can be downright intimidating at first.

We should build a system/foundation that doesnt just include PUGs, but makes them a priority. A system that encourages people to share ideas, strategies, and even fail together (which is also an opportunity to learn). Coming up with a strong foundation, built on means accessible to anyone just playing the game, would be a great boon to the strength of the server.

Then again, I have said this before (and have been saying it since I started on DH). The HNN zerg was successful at the time though, why would anyone need to do anything else? Right?

At least now it seems there are a few left on DH that are willing to accept their own responsibility in DHs shortcomings, rather than blame everyone else. Maybe now we can truly build a strong server that focuses on communication and education done through means accessible to anyone who owns and plays the game.

Time will tell, I suppose. I wont be holding my breath though

Great fights as always DB and BP. DB, you and FA are currently my two favorite servers to fight against. Keep up the great work!

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Yw mate. Oh and I realized I had buff foods going lol. But its ok they didn’t affect direct damage from the well it was only condition dmg stuff. I was just thinking that while it was probably a bug you had, it could be possible also that someone near you had stacked some might/fury on you and you didn’t know it? Idk that would be a lot of might to double damage output though lol. Anywho, was just speculating an idea that popped in my head guess we resolved this and was glad I could help.

It sure would be a lot of might! I made sure to check on it though, I had no buffs for comparison purposes. I think the issue is that tooltips, in general, are a bit funky. In this video:

At the 27 minute mark (27:25 to be exact, and sorry, its a mesmer video!), you can see that the tooltip for phantasmal duelist states “Damage (8x): 408” and the real world damage seems to be ~1700. If the tooltip means what the wiki says it means, that indicates each hit is doing ~50 damage. Over eight hits, that would total 408 damage. With say, 50% crit damage and 100% crit rate, we should expect to see a maximum of 1000 damage, especially when armor is brought into the equation (video is against heavy armor golem), but we consistently see over 1500. However, if that 1500 is divided amongst 8 hits, we get ~190 per hit. When considering the reduction of heavy armor, this is more closely in line with 408 damage being dealt out each individual hit. And to achieve that number (190) with a base 50 damage, we would need pretty massive crit damage as well as an unreasonably high crit rate (if my math is right and it doesnt feel right: 250%+ crit damage and 100% crit rate).

So, basically, my conclusion is: shrugs

Yeah take what people say on these forums with a grain of salt. Lots of angry people here lol. I just gotta step back sometimes and laugh otherwise I get sucked in too :-P

Its true the world over. Some people are just like that, though more prone to outburst due to the anonymity. I miss the earlier days when trolls would really put time and effort into baiting not just a reaction, but full blown discussion/argument. Then they figured out all they had to actually do was say something that has an opposing viewpoint on the web. People will take care of the rest :lol:

Thanks again for your time friend.

cesmode.4257:

@mogar: From a pack of 3 centaurs to the next pack of 3 centaurs, my rotation would be the same. Fire to earth, might stacking and aoe via arcane wave, earthquake, and churning earth.

Just to be blunt here, that is more of an issue on your end as far as creativity goes. There will always be an optimum cycle of skills, for every class. You can run into every situation and that will likely be the best way to go about it. BUT, it doesnt mean that you have to do that rotation. You can even do less effective rotations specifically to challenge yourself more (as in positional awareness, character control, etc). You can also choose to just stay in one attunement to become more.. in tune.. with it (sorry, couldnt help myself).

That being said, I would use a completely different rotation if I was looking for optimal effect. Most of the time, its best to run around in air as well as begin fights in that attunement. For me, that is.

As was said, its a combination of both rotation and decision. You have specific rotations within each attunement (just like other classes weapons) that will be the “best,” but which attunement/weapon you are currently in and where you will go with it next is entirely up to you. Eles just have four options for rotations instead of two, making them more decision based than any other class, though still firmly rooted in rotations.

What you need to do to just get a PvE kill is much, much different than what you can do to become a better player and master of your class.

Phantom.8130:

it’s…….. sort of funny. a guy makes a topic, people begin arguing, the guy comes back and flat out says he was trolling, he’s pretty much ignored and the arguing continues regardless.

Hi there!

I can see you are new here and would like to welcome you to the internet! It is a vast and deep ocean of information. In the same way, its movement is as predictable as the tides.

Anyway, it is hard to say where thieves would stand without the culling issue. Personally, I would like to see that fixed before any class changes happen. The issue is that might take a while, so a patchwork interim fix could be implemented. Perhaps allowing wireframe models to appear (ideally with names above) which over-ride the loading priority of environmental assets such as plants/trees.

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Yeah between 380-460 or so for non-crits and that’s with 0 power in my traits. (that’s on the test golems though which is using my pvp gear so my stats are a tad higher than pve, but there shouldn’t be a drastic difference). Crits were in the 600’s.

Thanks again for your time. It sounds like the 1700/tick was much, much more damage than I should have any right to expect from WoS!

The damage that WoS is doing is actually completely normal, so that explains quite a bit for me. Ill tell ya though, when it was doing that initial damage before the trait switches, I was really, really tearing through zergs. I thought to myself that even without a power build I am doing massive damage.. what if I focused on power? Should have known something was up! XD Live and learn.

Thanks for you help and time.

Jongi.7612:

Its seems as though most of you guys just look for a build link complain about there not being one, and then lashing out at someone thats looking for help. Get out of here and go back to WoW, we dont need people like you here that cant be bothered to read a post looking for help with all the information there him repeating himself that the only thing that changed in his build was gaining more power and losing damage from his survivability build.

The necromancer is full of bugs and there is a reason its the least played class in tpvp and spvp. Put it away until either the bugs are fixed or the prof is revamped (i hope its the latter one). Even with a condition build my bleeds are hitting for about 30 damage less than what other people have stated. 113 damage from my bleeds but others have stated around 140 damage for their bleed, same build and everything.

Thanks for your support! I have learned that most people dont read ~70% of the posted text. This usually leads to lots of miscommunication, and repetition. Most of the time, its a conscious choice to do so. Many people dont understand how clearly they show their hand when they accuse someone of randomly doing something (like seeking attention). Amazing how much we yell at ourselves in the guise of yelling at others.. Honestly though, its not exclusive to WoW, more of an internet/people thing.

I originally put the class away because of the bugs. Jagged horror especially annoys me since enemies can rally off of them, though I dont know if this was actually fixed. I also have 80s of engie, thief, and ele so a few choices! When I tried it out this time (doing the 1700/tick on WoS) I kept thinking “why the heck did I shelve this?” Turns out it was bugged! That and I misunderstood the tool tip from the beginning. Both of which could have been cleared up pretty quickly instead of criticizing, but either way, if someone else runs into it hopefully the thread will help in some way.

Katzyn.9703:

I get it, that sometimes a victory over a really obnoxiously-hard-to-kill opponent is really something you want to celebrate, but it makes us look like jerks, and then they start doing back to us in retaliation…and bad blood is created, which makes it harder to have actual FUN.

I like to /salute opponents who give me a good fight, even if it means doing so while a zerg is incoming. With stoicism, I salute my opponent in one final act of respect before their minions tear me apart. At least thats how it plays out in my head! haha

-From a d/d ele thats not too hard to kill

covenn.7165:

The reason they are crying is:

1. Culling

2. Even a bad player can be successful with a thief

This is literally the entire conversation. Everything else is just what happens when a word is spoken about “x” on the internet.

Nay of the Ether.8913:

I’m not running a power build so my numbers won’t look the same as you, but my WoS is running ~(5x) 2180

I’m focused more on surviability and conditions with some direct damage/high crits added in.

Ignore the skill bar, I was just messing around with things, that’s not my actual build, but the stats are my unbuffed stats.

Thank you so very much Are you seeing WoS hitting for ~440 a tick on non crits?

According to the wiki (completely forgot about that!):

“Some skills list multiple hits of Direct Damage, for example: Damage (2x): 500. This means the target will receive 2 hits of 250 each.”

Question answered on that one Must have been bugged before. Still not sure why it was “fixed” when changing traits, but I doubt that will be answered. edit: Interestingly, on the old build before any switches, damage in the WoS tooltip was stated as (5x)1700. Now, using the same build, it is stated at ~(5x)2400.

Still would be curious what WoS is hitting for with other people, regardless of build.

Dredlord.8076:

if youre asking people for help…..make it easier to help you. link your spec in a builder.

hacks was trying to give you the same advice but apparently you are too stuborn

Do you have access to one that doesnt use javascript? What is assumed as being stubborn is actually technical issues

People are extremely focused on the builds, but as I said, I am thinking this is either a game bug or a misunderstanding of game mechanics on my part. That is why I have asked so many questions about game mechanics, but mostly all that has been met with is “you didnt use a build calculator, you are seeking attention.”

Honestly, if my questions about game mechanics were answered, it would probably clear up a ton of misunderstanding and lack of knowledge on my part! Precisely zero of them have been answered though, apparently because I am not using a build calculator.

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Do something to humor me: if traits was all you changed, change them back and see if it goes back to normal, if it does, then we can begin picking apart the problem from there

I did indeed try this.. Things actually seemed to keep consistent with the new numbers I was seeing from the new build. My damage dropped proportionally and properly when switching back to the survivability build. I have messed around with it quite a lot at this point (curiosity drives me sometimes ), and have yet to see WoS hit the numbers I was seeing previously. I am not able to get it to hit over 1k per pulse, crit or otherwise, and regardless of build (truth be told, I havent seen it hit for over 800 since the initial trait change).

If you could do something to humor me? What are you hitting for with WoS and are you focused on damage/survivability/cond/etc. I dont need to know the actual build or anything. The damage I am experiencing might be normal, but no one has mentioned anything about it so I am not sure (other than with the axe, thanks to OmegaProject). I am thinking at this point that it was probably bugged before. Couple that with me misunderstanding game mechanics, and it might explain it all. Havent been able to actually get any answers regarding this though, maybe youll be “the one” :P

Ninya.3942:

Roberto.7190:

Ninya.3942:

Wizardauz.3761:

That Longview battle at DH BL… Back and forth between the garrison… Epic!

DH brings the heat gratz on pushing us out! But we’ll be back

Look for the Sunrise

- FTF

Were you that ‘awesome’ sunrise wielder, with another legendary carrier and a whole group, that just chased my ele across half the map just to keep me away from the JP? :P

Nope, he went to bed hours ago from boredom. Probably from sitting around waiting for someone to mount an attack. I wasn’t in the area, but if you run you will generally be chased. (Never understood people not liking being chased, its as if there is a 30 foot rule. You run 30 feet out you don’t get to chase me!) Of course, I am always a fan of making it as easy as possible for my enemy to get siege to use against me later.

I always find it funny when a guy with a commander tag chases one person across a map. And it’s not like they kept me from the jumping puzzle, went right back and got my chest :P

As a fellow dh d/d ele, let me say “I concur!” Please, please chase me! The more the better! Stay focused on me, dont pay attention to the zerg capping areas where you are not. Follow the white rabbit. Go to the light! :P

You are feeling sleepy from the sparkly lights on the ele.. So sleepy. Be entranced by our splendor!

hehehe

Good luck to all and happy holidays.

hackks.3687:

I didn’t link the build calculator so we could see what traits your using. the site will calculate all your cumulative stats based on weapons, traits, runes, sigils, amulet + jewel, etc. You know, all those things that help you decide on what build best suits your goal. Listing your trait choices is a small part of what is actually going on in your build.

So… you want your hand held? :P All of those things are mentioned in the thread. And they are not relevant, as none of them changed, only traits.

Also, why would you stop at 25 pts in Spite when the minor trait is kittenty but the XII major trait is the bulk of the reason to put any points in that tree in the first place with a power build. Additionally, Blood Magic is a kittenty tree, we have HP already and healing power doesn’t do much of anything for Necros since all we have is regen and syphoning. Neither of which scale impressively with healing power.

Because, as I said before, I love experimenting with different builds. Its a huge part of the fun for me, as I said before. It is almost never the most effective, but is always the one I have the most fun with and the one that fits my playstyle best, as I said before. I actually like being gimped to an extent so that I have a higher percentage of good fights. Just not to this extent! The issue isnt with build help at all, its trying to figure out why my real damage doesnt line up with seemingly anything the game is telling me.

There’s virtually no way to tell you what’s going on though without knowing all weapon choices, runes, sigils, amulet+jewel, etc., in addition to the traits.

Except, you do know all of those things as they were mentioned in my posts

Now I am just curious about the problem though, so to anyone who is actually interested in giving input instead of crying for attention (see what I did there? :P );

Maybe I also misunderstood the tooltip.. First question is; when a tooltip says Damage (5x): 2500 does that mean 2500 damage dealt out over five hits or 2500 on each hit? If something says 5×2500 is that calculated before or after my gear? I assume after as it changes with gear changed, but just to make sure. And then is that the base damage that is applied to the enemy mob/player with subtractions taken out for things like armor, etc?

Historically, I swore 5xN damage seemed to calculate consistently as an application of N damage five separate times. However, the damage I am seeing now is consistent with N damage being the sum total of five separate hits. I was unable to test this with my ele, but with my thief this seems consistent. I am thinking it might have been bugged for me before, resulting in much higher damage than it should have been. Though, I remain unsure why resetting the traits would have resulted in a “fix.”

I am looking to better understand the game mechanics, so I would appreciate it if further posts would focus on actually helping rather than criticizing irrelevant items. If I dont post something to your personal preference and liking please just ask me to do it differently? I am aware that is A LOT to ask on the internet!

hackks.3687:

tl:dr – post your previous and current build. http://intothemists.com/calc/

First (old) build: 0/0/30/30/10 (IV, V, VII), (III, VIII, XII), (II)
Second (new) build: 25/0/25/20/0 (VI, VII), (IV, V), (II, IV)

If you want it in your easy to read calculator, thats fine, but then that kind of takes away the validity of disliking when others want their hand held.

Like I said though, necro is getting shelved. Strange happenings with damage (that is likely just me missing something) + a community like this = me go elsewhere. All the best!

Dakiaris.2798:

If you’re looking at using axe and don’t mind running with different utilities I can message you with the build I use to great effect it gives decent solo and support play options…. I don’t focus on wells with it though because I just favor other abilities.

I main a axe necro that’s why I’m offering.

I appreciate the offer, but I think I am ok. A huge part of the fun for me is literally trying every build I can possibly come up with and sticking with the one I like most. Its almost never the most effective, but its always the one I have the most fun with.

Thanks again though.

Modkip.7681:

If you want real help it’d be a good idea to list the first build and second build so that people can compare them and find out exactly what changes caused the drop in damage ect… You’re probably just going to get random guesses otherwise.

First (old) build: 0/0/30/30/10 (IV, V, VII), (III, VIII, XII), (II)
Second (new) build: 25/0/25/20/0 (VI, VII), (IV, V), (II, IV)

Actual selected traits change almost hourly though.

PVT gear, with some clerics. Only thing that changed was traits.

Either way, I went back to the old build and it seems I experienced some nerf :P On the old build, retried, WoS is now hitting for 200/pulse.

Anyways, I think the necro is getting shelved now, haha. Just wanted to try out a juggermancer variant, because it looked fun. Back to my main!

Thanks for all those that tried to help. And apologies for not being perfect

XiL.4318:

Tuluum.9638:

XiL.4318:

Missing information here suggests this is not a request for help but a request for attention.

Either supply all availible information or file this one under Roanry.

Uhh.. What?

Traits, Gear , Runes, Final stats, Utilities, you know everything that affects your damage potential. You didn’t even post the build using one of many build tools availible for GW2. If you really wanted help, why would you not provide all the information?

Usually people leave out details when they just want attention or acknowledgment.

Maybe take a break from the internet?

I listed traits, gear, runes, as well as applicable final stats (attack power and crit chance). Though, perhaps it wasnt in your desired format or your preferred time frame. I dont see the relevance of utilities. The only standard I run is WoS, which I mentioned.

The only thing that changed was traits, trading off survivability for damage. This, however, resulted in losing 50% of my DPS as well as my survivability and I am trying to figure out why.

As for your FYI, I am not sure how that is relevant.

edit: As for your attention seeking accusation; “That which we speak most fervently tends to be directed towards ourselves.”

XiL.4318:

Missing information here suggests this is not a request for help but a request for attention.

Either supply all availible information or file this one under Roanry.

Uhh.. What?

Derk.3189:

Are you using steady gear by any chance?

Negative, this is with all PVT gear though some of my trinkets have healing power. No runes/sigils on armor/weapons.

Kiriakulos.1690:

Tuluum.9638:

Axe or not, the severely reduced damage is applying to my wells and marks too.

And I like the combo I have running now. I am just doing half the damage I was before with a 30% increase in attack power. Just trying to figure out how that is happening.

edit: this is also happening in PvE. Thought Id test it since I dont venture there much.

Did you only change traits around? From your post it sounds like equipment stats got swapped as well.
Did you exchange any Runes for soldier crests?
How does an 50%< LF life blast compare now to before?

Just the traits.. I was actually thinking along the same lines. Maybe I took off all of my gear or something similar. But I just did the build to see how it goes, without changing any gear whatsoever.

I went into game to test life blast, and it seems to work much closer to normal. At least for the first few seconds of DS. It is hitting for ~1k each hit. Though, that stops after a few seconds in DS. I swear there was a trait that increased damage for the first few seconds of DS, but all I see is fury for five seconds upon entering DS. (along with the ones where life blast grants might, DS gives retaliation, etc). After a few shots, my life blast starts hitting for 500. With attack power of 3k, that seems really quite low.

Axe or not, the severely reduced damage is applying to my wells and marks too.

And I like the combo I have running now. I am just doing half the damage I was before with a 30% increase in attack power. Just trying to figure out how that is happening.

edit: this is also happening in PvE. Thought Id test it since I dont venture there much.

tehsmooth.7493:

your crits do less damage because you have 0 points in +crit dmg?

Yes, that would reduce the severity of crits. However, in the old build the only +crit dmg I had was +10% from the last trait line. Even then though, it doesnt address the issue.

Like I said, a normal hit with WoS before was ~1200. Now, a normal hit is ~500, with a lucky crit maybe topping 800 (my build has 4% crit, so..). I dont think WoS has ever hit that low, regardless of what build I am using. This is with roughly 30% greater attack power than before as well as the tooltips reflecting that stat change.

This is also against NPCs, my numbers against other players are even lower.

So, I switch my builds up a lot with my characters. However, this last time I decided to go with something similar to the juggermancer build (25/0/25/20/0) with all pvt gear (though only a couple pieces of exotic, fwiw).

The build I was using previously was essentially a bunker type, with the main focus on wells (recharge, siphon health, etc). I could remember the exact traits if I tried, but I dont think its relevant.

Going with the new build, I have an attack power of just under 3k, which was a pretty dramatic improvement over the old build. However, I notice all of my skills are doing really bad damage. I am struggling to kill veteran scouts in wvw. My staff seems about normal on auto only, but everything else (marks, wells and axe/dagger) seem to be doing awful damage.

The auto attack on the axe is critting for 250 (not a typo). Number 2 attack on axe wont even break 2k total when everything crits (tooltip says 8×1584). My well of suffering is critting for 700 (again, not a typo). My tool tips say they should be doing massive amounts more damage than before (tool tip on old build said 5×1700 for WoS, now says 5×2650). However, before I re-did my traits, WoS’ normal hit was doing almost double what a crit is doing now. A normal hit was something like 1200.

Literally, the only thing that changed was the traits. Wth happened? I seem to be missing something major, but cant figure it out for the life of me. Please help? Just happy its not my main :P

Levelling in WvW can be either the absolute slowest way to level, or the best.

If you are in a successful zerg (was mentioned), capping tower after keep after tower, you will level pretty darn fast. I am pretty sure though that some level ranges scale better than others.

If you are in any other situation, levelling by other means will be quicker.

Knasher.5607:

If something is genuinely overpowered then over time it should become the dominant thing as people adopt the “if you can’t beat them, join them” strategy. Turtling, for example, was a boring as kitten strategy but after a while I’d say every guild with an ounce of organization was using it. When people realized that thieves could permanently contest supply camps, people started making thieves and every thief in my guild adopted that strategy.

Seeing as I haven’t seen an uptick on the number of eles in WvW, I can only surmise that while it is a useful ability, it doesn’t unbalance the class as a whole. In which case, tough, different classes have different advantages in different areas, this one just happens to be the eles.

Please stop being reasonable and intelligent. Its not the place for it!

Anyway, mist form is definitely not OP. It can be easily countered. Mist form doesnt move all that fast, so a guardian can pretty easily throw a wall down. It also means that ele is out of the fight for quite a long time as they rez themselves.

Basically, if you see some character jump off of the wall directly into a zerg (or out of the portal), you can probably expect one of two things. The first is they are set up to do damage and survive it (then rinse and repeat), the second is that they just dont know what they are doing. This isnt class dependent.

The solution to either situation is the same. It is also the same for any player, of any class, trying to get into a keep and defend it. It is also the same if you are pulling players off of the wall. If you have a group, have some players CC while others do damage. There are ways to do this even if the player has stability. If you have more than five players to their one, sit back and laugh as the players only damage five people max with each attack.

To add, if they are specced for it, I am pretty sure eles can do damage in vapor and mist form. Unsure if that is WAI, but you do have to use one of your traits for it either way.

Basically, with all of the issues in the game (some very serious, imo), this isnt even a concern. If it is to you, maybe focus your time and effort getting more serious problems fixed first, then move to this.

nalenb.1425:

Tuluum.9638:

One thing especially, and that is encouraging new players to continue participating in WvW. As it stands, it can be an incredibly hostile environment if you dont know what you are doing. It would be better to encourage and educate rather than just insult and yell.

We will see what happens.

It’s so very hard to introduce new people too. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve typed out the basics. New players generally don’t want to go to the forums or get on voice to learn the basics of WvW. I wish there was a way to save a macro of the basics and then just whisper and hit a key.

- Abbish – Dragonbrand

It is, but I just remember the first time I played. I was completely lost. I think a good way to minimize the effects of this is to have our commanders type out what to do/where to go/what to build (as they do now, just more consistently to the rest of the team), but then also type out why they are doing it. The initial time investment would increase, obviously, but the return on it in the long run would be substantial. I am sure there are other ways too, thats just the first one that springs to mind.

edit: i.e. “Run past this sentry so we dont alert our presence.” “Build rams here so they are less vulnerable to catapults.” “Lets take this supply camp first so we can cut off their supply, earn PPT, and fill up our supply for siege on the tower.”

DKz Lux.4125:

@ Littlefeather

Celebrate the PUGs, celebrade small guilds. If RE is the only big one, help the smaller ones get bigger. Help train the new commanders. Make an alliance and invite them to join. Have weekly meetings to talk about strategy. Tell people often to join your public voice chat server. Have someone develop a community website and tell people to join. Do PVE events and then invite them to join you in wvw next. There are many thing you can do to make your server stronger without needing big guild transfers from other servers.

DKz has been in Borlis since beta. We used to be a PVE guild, like most other guilds we have in the server. It took us many weeks to learn about wvw and also educate those that play with us.

Right now DH’s biggest problem is not numbers, it is morale. If you are telling me you see new PUGs every day, then that’s great news. That’s a lot of people that can become wvw regulars in the future. PUGs are only PUGs for a while, eventually, they become WvW veterans.

Even Monkey Shine has improved.

Thats a really good post. Look for ways to actually succeed instead of wallowing in the loss.

I have personally been making suggestions along the same lines since day one on DH, along with actual methods and plans to carry it out. The time obviously wasnt right before, but perhaps it is now.

One thing especially, and that is encouraging new players to continue participating in WvW. As it stands, it can be an incredibly hostile environment if you dont know what you are doing. It would be better to encourage and educate rather than just insult and yell.

We will see what happens.

donttread.9304:

Hello all,

I am trying to decide which class to choose for a fun WvW experience, and I would love your thoughts. I have a level 80 Warrior that I like in WvW, but I am looking for something a little different. Right now I am thinking thief or elementalist—I have both classes sitting at level 20 right now.

To help with this thread here are some of the things I am looking for in WvW. I know that some of these things cannot be met with one class, but I thought it would help to make this thread more useful.

1. I hate dying – I really hate dying and having to run back to the fight.
2. I like having a speed boost to make running back less painful.
3. I like to kill people or at least feel that I am visibly helping my team.

Can you help me? I would love to hear your thoughts and your reasoning.

Thank you!!

For your three requirements, I would say Thief without much hesitation. Overall, I personally prefer the ele. I think it is more rewarding and I have much, much more fun playing. I feel outright cheap on my thief. I also find that its much less challenging as a class, but ele may be TOO challenging for some.

The big difference is that with ele, they can be pretty unforgiving. If you mess up in a fight, there is a large chance you will get downed. You can mist form to your zerg, but thief’s down state is far from weak. If you mess up in a fight on a thief, just use one of your many stealths! Remember to include leap finishers through smoke fields (I believe you get access to two smoke fields, iirc). Also keep in mind that you will not actually render to your opponents for a couple seconds even after you render on your own screen. Whether you take advantage of this or not is up to you.

Overall mobility I would actually put pretty close, but uptime maintenance is perhaps a bit more involved on a ele.

If you were to ask the question without restriction, I would say ele. It takes more time to learn, you have to stay on your toes almost constantly, and mistakes can be deadly. That appeals to me personally, but certainly not everyone. Though, for group contribution, I would hand it to the ele. You can do some things with traits on the thief (like giving regen with shadow refuge) but it is more of a single target dps class. In small engagements, this can and will make a MASSIVE difference. However, in zerg vs zerg, taking out single targets are just drops in the bucket. Ele has better access to AoE.

Ethersin.3270:

I love my engi <3 rifle/elix/flamethrower ftw patch beefed up elix and kits too ^__^

I love my engie too Though I prefer bombs to the flamethrower. I cant deny they are weak in proportion to the amount of effort and skill involved in playing one though. The only way someone could say otherwise is if they havent levelled a few other classes to 80 for comparison.

Fiction.6418:

Dr Acula.3496:

Let’s be real here. Hearing a D/D ele complain about anything is quite laughable….

This is kind of my thought.

The difference is in the skill and effort involved to achieve a win. A d/d ele takes much, much more effort/skill to accomplish what a thief can.

I still say most just get scared when they see the flashing lights and colors of an ele and freeze up.

Fiennes.9568:

Ireniicus.2167:

My main is a thief however it is thieves and not Engineers that need the nerf bat

Whilst I disagree with the engineer nerf, your statement that thieves need a nerf pretty much proves to me you don’t actually play a thief.

Yeah, I see this a lot…

My first character was a thief. Lvl 80, exotics, blah blah blah. For the amount of effort and skill put into actually playing one, they should be significantly less effective. I stopped playing it entirely because every engagement felt like a massively cheap win. Most arent bothered by this though, and I am aware of that. However, this “nerf” to thieves may be entirely accomplished by fixing culling. I dont think they, or any other class really, should be touched until some of these core game mechanics are actually fixed.