Guild Wars 2

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Trajan.4953:

IndigoSundown.5419:

From the:

“Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto
by Mike O’Brien on April 27, 2010

It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.

- Mike O’Brien"

So, what future fun reward is this referring to? The optional rewards like titles and achievements all required a ton of grind in GW. Most of the unique skins were gated behind RNG so severe that most people who tried to farm them devised solo farming builds to remove the chances someone else might get the drop. The only exception came with the chests implemented in EotN and added to UW and FoW, and those were still low chance RNG. Mini-pets? Those were time gated in GW. By extension, one can infer that “our games aren’t about grinding for a future fun reward” cannot be referring to any of the above.

What do other games offer as fun rewards that people grind for? What are people going to think of when they read this paragraph? What could he be referring to if it’s not better gear?

I think, and I may be wrong, but that A-Net is trying to design their game around the actual experience of the game to get to the reward. The problem, inherently is that most MMO players have been trained that the reward, and only the reward, is what’s important, and the best way to get said reward is by the fastest most efficient means possible.

jmho.

I agree with this.

That’s all well and good, but you’re both dodging the question.

What you’re implying is that experiencing the game is supposed to be fun. Well, that is really not relevant to distinguishing ANet games from other games. Other developers are designing their gear chases around actually playing their games as well. While game management may be thinking about slowing players down, I will guarantee you that any developer who cares about what they are doing is trying to program content s/he hopes will be perceived as fun. Management cares about that too, because if a player perceives they are having fun, they’re more likely to stick around.

Grind may have a meaning that one can look up online, but the meanings of words evolve. The availability of mass media guarantees that at least some words will evolve at speeds that would have boggled minds during the age of enlightenment. Saying something like, “Well, grind means x because I can link something saying that’s the definition.” is futile. Grind in an online game is inherently a subjective thing, because it is experienced, and different people are going to “feel” differently about different things. The current definition may very well be closer to, “Repetitive play that I don’t like but do to get the outcome.” than anything you can read on an online resource.

What is relevant — at least to this discussion — is what Mike O’Brien meant when he wrote the manifesto. Which means that what he meant by “grinding for a future fun reward” is also relevant.

So, what did he mean?

What he’s saying is that other games aren’t fun until you hit level cap. If you’ve been around other MMOs, you’ll find that everyone hates leveling, that they do it to get through it. They look for the fastest way to do it…because it’s not fun. All the cool fights are later in the game.

That’s why the Shadow Behemoth is in the starter zone. And this isn’t some theory that I’ve just come up with. Colin said this straight out during in interview…at that time.

In trying to differentiate Guild Wars 2 from other games, they said that other games had one game you played while leveling and it became a completely different game at level cap. They didn’t want Guild Wars 2 to be like this. It’s the reason for downleveling. It’s the reason so many jumping puzzles are in early zones (there are three in Caledon Forest). It’s the reason there are dynamic events all over the place, with weird sorts of transmformations and weapons.

Compare this to the start of WoW and killing ten wolves that are standing in a field. It’s a very different feel. Leveling in most MMOs, the large majority it horrible.

Now MMOs have started improving this, but when the manifesto was published this was the rule.

Champion in my personal story did drop a loot box.

Nick.6972:

Maybe for another Festival Living story adding more gem store items and more temporar content?

Sounds like a good idea. Count me in.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

This thread needs to die. It is not constructive, hasn’t been constructive, has not evolved into being constructive.

I think constructive things have come out of this thread. I think that if people cease personal assaults, constructive things could continue to come out of this thread.

I posted an honest thread to answer a criticism that put to bed at least one major comment people were making about the manifesto.

Another thread was also merged into this thread about the manifesto more generally.

The thread doesn’t need to be closed. People need to stick to the issue and not get personal.

Ewon.5903:

Vayne.8563:

I used to try…I’ve stopped. For example, I used to do the SPvP daily every day, in addition to the other dailies. But I’ve enjoyed the game more since I’ve stopped trying..and I’m still in the top 500 somehow.

I must play too much.

A few questions to see where you are coming from:

Are you still trying to place higher on the achievement boards, or have you stopped caring about your positioning?

Why did you stop doing dailies?

Are there any changes they could make that you would try to place on the AP boards again?

I stopped caring about where I place, I still do dailies when I can…if they’re not out of my way or if I like them…or to encourage me to do new things.

Gehenna.3625:

BlueZone.4236:

Playing different aspects of the game is optional. So what?
Doing grind to continuously access the gauntlet is a requirement.
Your dungeon token argument makes zero sense. It’s not like dungeon tokens are a requirement to access certain parts of a dungeon. But this is akin to what the gauntlet requirement is.

Grind is not a defined quantity as some seem to think. It’s personal. Different people get bored or feel something is repetitious at different points. So if you find it grindy and another doesn’t both can be right.

For myself I know there is repetition in any game and that’s ok. But did they get the balance right so it doesn’t feel like chore? Again, it’s personal but I feel the balance is off and they sold this game as not feeling grindy, knowing that a lot of people would feel differently.

Part of the issue is also the reward system. For me the balance between effort and reward is key. Effort is measured by time, challenge and repetition. Reward is what you get as a result as in the sense of completion, fun of the activity and the actual reward.

The problem I see with GW2 is that the lack if difficulty makes any reward feel less valuable. It’s like the 16 year old american kid who gets a car for his b-day and crashes it the next day. You don’t value what comes easy as much as something you work for.

Also the rewards themselves tend to be ok-ish but not much really makes me go wow, I want that. There is some improvement but stats don’t matter so much and the skins are often ugly so there’s not much to really go for.

Then story missions give crap rewards as well. I have the feeling that Anet figured that people would be doing it anyways cause players generaly do follow the story line and forgot that people could actually lose interest in it….and so it becomes a drag.

If you have sparklies in your eyes and believe the shinies that Anet puts in front of you, there is no problem. If you want a little more depth in your experience here, there just isn’t much to go around. It’s all about the game balance, or rather economy instead of looking at what makes a meaningful experience.

You accuse me of being dismissive of people, yet you use lines like “if you have sparklies in your eeys and believe the shinies Anet puts in front of you…but if you want a little more depth.”

You’re implying people who like the game don’t want depth and are simply blinded by sparklies. You’re doing the very thing you’re accusing me of.

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

Still has nothing to do with backpeddling.

All the manifesto says is that there will be fun stuff to do up front. That’s it. It never says you’ll never have to put effort into getting something.

Take dungeon tokens. Been in the game since day 1. If you want to get a full set of armor from a dungeon that’s a whole lot of runs. But that has nothing to do with having to grind to get to the fun stuff. Because you can run the dungeon once.

This isn’t any difference. You don’t need to do that content. It’s an option. If you like it, and you find it worth it, you’ll do it. If you don’t find it worth it you won’t. The amount of “grind” unquote to get those tickets is neglible considering everything drops them. I got three of them doing a fractal run today.

But it still has zero to do with the manifesto.

The manifesto is a general statement about the game, not a specific discussion of any single aspect of it. You’re picking one temporary two week content that was never conceived before the manifesto.

Have you ever played Guild Wars 1. Are you saying 9 rings wasn’t a grind?

Playing different aspects of the game is optional. So what?
Doing grind to continuously access the gauntlet is a requirement.
Your dungeon token argument makes zero sense. It’s not like dungeon tokens are a requirement to access certain parts of a dungeon. But this is akin to what the gauntlet requirement is.

If your argument was they conceived the gauntlet requirement prior to the manifest, that would make sense. Since it’s after, they clearly think “grinding to get to fun stuff” is now okay.

I disagree. The manifesto doesn’t say there won’t be fun stuff that you have to work to get to. It simply says there will be fun stuff up front. There’s no guarantee there that says ALL fun stuff will instantly attainable.

At any rate, it’s still not a grind. If you play the game normally for bit, you’ll get plenty of those tickets…and gears to buy tickets with.

I guess you haven’t seen how accessible a lot of the major previous content was, then? (EDIT: I am talking about “fun stuff” to do, not gear if you’re going to argue that)

At any rate, a grind for the gauntlet is still a grind for the gauntlet, regardless if you are easily distracted by other carrots.

And all this, even if it is is grind is still not relevant to my point. The point is only that there would be fun stuff to do early on. Not that there would never be anything to work towards.

I used to try…I’ve stopped. For example, I used to do the SPvP daily every day, in addition to the other dailies. But I’ve enjoyed the game more since I’ve stopped trying..and I’m still in the top 500 somehow.

I must play too much.

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

Still has nothing to do with backpeddling.

All the manifesto says is that there will be fun stuff to do up front. That’s it. It never says you’ll never have to put effort into getting something.

Take dungeon tokens. Been in the game since day 1. If you want to get a full set of armor from a dungeon that’s a whole lot of runs. But that has nothing to do with having to grind to get to the fun stuff. Because you can run the dungeon once.

This isn’t any difference. You don’t need to do that content. It’s an option. If you like it, and you find it worth it, you’ll do it. If you don’t find it worth it you won’t. The amount of “grind” unquote to get those tickets is neglible considering everything drops them. I got three of them doing a fractal run today.

But it still has zero to do with the manifesto.

The manifesto is a general statement about the game, not a specific discussion of any single aspect of it. You’re picking one temporary two week content that was never conceived before the manifesto.

Have you ever played Guild Wars 1. Are you saying 9 rings wasn’t a grind?

Playing different aspects of the game is optional. So what?
Doing grind to continuously access the gauntlet is a requirement.
Your dungeon token argument makes zero sense. It’s not like dungeon tokens are a requirement to access certain parts of a dungeon. But this is akin to what the gauntlet requirement is.

If your argument was they conceived the gauntlet requirement prior to the manifest, that would make sense. Since it’s after, they clearly think “grinding to get to fun stuff” is now okay.

I disagree. The manifesto doesn’t say there won’t be fun stuff that you have to work to get to. It simply says there will be fun stuff up front. There’s no guarantee there that says ALL fun stuff will instantly attainable.

At any rate, it’s still not a grind. If you play the game normally for bit, you’ll get plenty of those tickets…and gears to buy tickets with.

Peetee.9406:

Have any of you guys run SE p2 or CoF p3 lately?

I hadn’t ran either since 3 months after release because of bad memories and others horror stories. But today a guildy was asking for help with both while working on Dungeon Master. Our group was able to blow through both paths without a hitch, I was shocked at how easy they were.

They’re pretty easy if you know how to do them. My guild never has problems with any of the paths in SE.

Colly.4073:

Nothing will change, Living story is where they want the game to head as they have stated. Each installment of Living story is exciting for all of half hour but then starts to get old fast, It’s predictable and dull.

I don’t know about that. I still see people excited about certain aspects of this living story, including the Gauntlet. People were still playing the racing game and the survival game from the last living story long after they got the achievements for them.

Astralporing.1957:

Vayne.8563:

Also, as previously mentioned, there was no reason to clarify anything else at that time, because until the game launched there was no way Anet could know people were confused about anything else?

Yep, they certainly weren’t confused about this game having no vertical progression and no stat grind. Oh wait…

It doesn’t mention vertical progression in the manifesto. It doesn’t mention stat grind in the manifesto. There’s nothing in the wording of the manifesto to suggest either thing. You heard the word grind, you assumed what was being said. Other people assumed other things.

And technically vertical progression has been in the game since day 1 and no one cared. Having 80th level masterwork, rare and exotic is vertical progression. You’re already at level 80 and getting more powerful gear.

Astralporing.1957:

Behellagh.1468:

The earliest date I can find for the manifesto is Aug 10, 2010. The clarification on the blog was Aug 13, 2010. So why do people keep claiming that the manifesto means one thing when those points were clarified only 3 days later nearly 3 years ago as to what they meant?

Because they don’t clarify anything important? All the problematic parts with the manifesto are still there.

I wish I had a dollar for each time someone brought up the line “the boss you killed respawns ten minutes later” as one of the arguments against the manifesto.

If it’s not important why do people keep bringing it up, even in this thread.

Also, as previously mentioned, there was no reason to clarify anything else at that time, because until the game launched there was no way Anet could know people were confused about anything else?

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

snip

Not even a year out since it’s official release and we can already see them starting to backpedal on “annoying grind before you get to the fun stuff”.
Case in point: Queen’s Gauntlet.
Sure, we get a free sample, but what a shame if you want to play it a lot.

Except that before Launch, in interviews, Eric Flannum said straight out there would be stuff to grind for for people who enjoy grinding. This isn’t something they added just now.

Again, the manifesto was talking about grinding to level. That’s it. That’s what grinding used to mean. It didn’t mean grinding for gear or tickets.

This was said again and again after the manifesto. They gave you fun things to do early on. I’m not sure in what world that equates to there would never be anything to work for in this game. These are not congruent statements.

Dressing the same thing in a slightly different manner really doesn’t make it different.
It is irrelevant that the old method was to restrict “fun stuff” via levels. The “fun stuff” here requires grind to get access. Same difference.

There’s a logical fallacy in your argument.

We don’t want you to have to grind to get to the fun stuff. Therefore, if there’s fun stuff to do BEFORE you grind, you’ve already gotten to the fun stuff. It’s not saying there’s nothing in the game to grind for. That’s the logical fallacy.

Guild Wars 1 had tons of stuff to grind for…it’s just that that stuff wasn’t required. More to the point, Guild Wars 2 is talking about how other games are. Leveling is one experience and playing after level cap something else. You speed level/power level to do raids. That’s how this game is different. The fun stuff, the stuff you do in the beginning, is the stuff you do later on.

I’ve lost count of how many times Anet has said this and it remains true.

Oh, so you’re saying having different fun stuff makes grinding for this particular fun stuff/activity makes it okay. No backpedaling then.
The stuff you have to do now to get to retain access to Queen’s Gauntlet is…?

I have no idea what you’re arguing about regarding Guild Wars 1 and it’s non-activity (eg. gear) grind. I don’t care about that. What I was talking about is them starting to make “fun stuff” (ie. Queen’s Gauntlet) requiring a grind to get access to, which I expect the first of many.

I don’t see why you say it’s back peddling. Saying there will be stuff to do that’s fun right away, isn’t the same as saying there will never be anything to grind for. They’re two different statements.

They were saying there’s fun stuff to do before the grind. And since you can buy tickets with sprockets if you need them, it’s not even that hard to acquire the stuff you need. What they created here was a challenging event for people who want the challenge. That’s it.

But then, if you find the farming below fun, and some do, then what Anet said is completely true…even if for your usage of the word grind. Fun is subjective.

“Starting to” backpedal on their philosophy. This is testing the water.
Again, grinding for gear is one thing, grinding to access fun stuff is another.
Yes, they have a challenging event, but in order to attempt it multiple times (and with gambits) requires…what now?
Farming for gear is not the same as farming for access to events.

Still has nothing to do with backpeddling.

All the manifesto says is that there will be fun stuff to do up front. That’s it. It never says you’ll never have to put effort into getting something.

Take dungeon tokens. Been in the game since day 1. If you want to get a full set of armor from a dungeon that’s a whole lot of runs. But that has nothing to do with having to grind to get to the fun stuff. Because you can run the dungeon once.

This isn’t any difference. You don’t need to do that content. It’s an option. If you like it, and you find it worth it, you’ll do it. If you don’t find it worth it you won’t. The amount of “grind” unquote to get those tickets is neglible considering everything drops them. I got three of them doing a fractal run today.

But it still has zero to do with the manifesto.

The manifesto is a general statement about the game, not a specific discussion of any single aspect of it. You’re picking one temporary two week content that was never conceived before the manifesto.

Have you ever played Guild Wars 1. Are you saying 9 rings wasn’t a grind?

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

The real issue here is those that choose to define grind by it’s “modern” definition as opposed to its original definition have nothing in the manifesto itself to support them. It starts off with Colin talking about this annoying grind before getting to the fun stuff. What are the odds that fun stuff is talking about gear. The game has always been activity based, rather than gear based. The other stuff in the manifesto they’re talking about, combat, events, personal story. They’re not talking about gear at all. That’s a reward based mentality that Anet has never shared.

Everything was about the experience. That’s why everyone complains about rewards. It’s not the way the company thinks.

He says “annoying grind before you get to the fun stuff” and he says “we want to change the way people view combat”. There’s nothing here about gear grind at all. People who claim there is have nothing in the manifesto itself to support them. What they have is their own opinion of what grind means from outside the manifesto.

Not even a year out since it’s official release and we can already see them starting to backpedal on “annoying grind before you get to the fun stuff”.
Case in point: Queen’s Gauntlet.
Sure, we get a free sample, but what a shame if you want to play it a lot.

Except that before Launch, in interviews, Eric Flannum said straight out there would be stuff to grind for for people who enjoy grinding. This isn’t something they added just now.

Again, the manifesto was talking about grinding to level. That’s it. That’s what grinding used to mean. It didn’t mean grinding for gear or tickets.

This was said again and again after the manifesto. They gave you fun things to do early on. I’m not sure in what world that equates to there would never be anything to work for in this game. These are not congruent statements.

Dressing the same thing in a slightly different manner really doesn’t make it different.
It is irrelevant that the old method was to restrict “fun stuff” via levels. The “fun stuff” here requires grind to get access. Same difference.

There’s a logical fallacy in your argument.

We don’t want you to have to grind to get to the fun stuff. Therefore, if there’s fun stuff to do BEFORE you grind, you’ve already gotten to the fun stuff. It’s not saying there’s nothing in the game to grind for. That’s the logical fallacy.

Guild Wars 1 had tons of stuff to grind for…it’s just that that stuff wasn’t required. More to the point, Guild Wars 2 is talking about how other games are. Leveling is one experience and playing after level cap something else. You speed level/power level to do raids. That’s how this game is different. The fun stuff, the stuff you do in the beginning, is the stuff you do later on.

I’ve lost count of how many times Anet has said this and it remains true.

Oh, so you’re saying having different fun stuff makes grinding for this particular fun stuff/activity makes it okay. No backpedaling then.
The stuff you have to do now to get to retain access to Queen’s Gauntlet is…?

I have no idea what you’re arguing about regarding Guild Wars 1 and it’s non-activity (eg. gear) grind. I don’t care about that. What I was talking about is them starting to make “fun stuff” (ie. Queen’s Gauntlet) requiring a grind to get access to, which I expect the first of many.

I don’t see why you say it’s back peddling. Saying there will be stuff to do that’s fun right away, isn’t the same as saying there will never be anything to grind for. They’re two different statements.

They were saying there’s fun stuff to do before the grind. And since you can buy tickets with sprockets if you need them, it’s not even that hard to acquire the stuff you need. What they created here was a challenging event for people who want the challenge. That’s it.

But then, if you find the farming below fun, and some do, then what Anet said is completely true…even if for your usage of the word grind. Fun is subjective.

Trajan.4953:

Whats funny is the word “Manifesto”. I have been involved in many companies doing start-ups and a manifesto is a good starting point, having said that, in the real world, things like manifestos and Business Plans change by necessity. The fact that so many, especially GW1 players, are clinging to an introductory set of words seems a trifle strange.

To be fair, it was a very well done video that called to the heart of what people like me hated about MMOs. And I really think Anet believed when they wrote it they could completely change the landscape. But they didn’t count on player reaction to what they were doing.

So they open the game, thinking everyone will be fine with purely cosmetic rewards…but that wasn’t the case. Most people weren’t fine with it…though the GW 1 fans certainly were.

So Anet made a compromise..that being ascended gear. They’ve said that ascended gear was always supposed to be in the game, and maybe that’s a bit of spin. I suspect that it was supposed to be in the game, but not in its current form. We’ll never know for sure.

But we do know that Anet had hard data about how many people maxed out their gear and left. They made decisions based on this as any company would. It definitely represented a change in direction. It definitely doesn’t mean the manifesto was a lie. Most of it is still completely true…if misunderstood.

Trajan.4953:

First off, no rage and vitriol here. Just disappointment.

The years-long love affair with Guild Wars. We’ve awakened to find a different company, and have been hoping to voice our opinions, be heard, and maybe see ArenaNet move back towards what they used to be.

We’re slowly giving up on it, now, though. I think you’ll find that posts from people like us are becoming fewer and fewer as we log in less and less. What I posted up there was pretty much my “I give up” statement, I suppose.

I had years of fun with ArenaNet. I’m saddened that it’s probably time to move on, but I guess nothing lasts forever.

I can understand this. Breaking up is hard, so to speak. Thank you for the insight, sincerely.

See this I can relate to completely. I feel a lot of sympathy for you, because your expectations with Guild Wars 2 have not been met. There’s no argument here from me that this game is significantly different from Guild Wars 1.

While some of those differences are quite negative (PvP formats lacking, less team work required, less build variety), some are quite positive to me (marketplace, no pathing, the ability to jump—I love the jumping puzzles, npcs in the world that are voiced that make it feel more alive to me, dynamic events).

In the end, Anet did what Anet did with Guild Wars 1…they innovated. They changed things up. They iterated. That’s what they did.

It doesn’t leave much happiness for those hoping for Guild Wars 1.5, however, and for that, I can completely sympathize.

@Chuo

Re this theoretical person you’re talking about, I guess you’ve never experienced a sports fan before? Ever hear of a soccer riot?

Fans of anything that they like, sport, music, politics even, anything, can become passionate about it. I was a huge NY Yankees fan at one point. I used to argue with my sister about them all the time (she was a Mets fan) but I was never on the Yankees payroll. To suggest the only reason someone would become passionate about a game they like is that the company is paying them doesn’t make much sense to me.

But more to the point, I am not actually defending the game, or even the company. I’m doing what I always do, which is waging a war against injustice. If I see someone accused of lying, even if I don’t like them, I’ll certainly rally to their defense. This has less to do about the game and more to do about natural justice to someone like me.

And I suspect if you’ve been through some of the stuff in your life that I have in mine, you might feel the same.

I don’t care if people think that Anet didn’t live up to the manifesto. I only care that people say they lied. Why? Because no one can prove intent and lying implies intent.

If you say Anet hasn’t made a fun game, that’s fine. It didn’t live up to the manifesto to you. If you say Anet deliberately misled you, I’d say you’d have a hard time proving that, and the burden of proof should be on you.

Chuo.4238:

Trajan.4953:

Chuo.4238:

This has truly been the very most entertaining thread on these forums.

My two cents:

1) I cannot fathom why someone (I won’t name names but I bet you could guess who in one try) would work so hard to defend a company that’s not paying them to do so. So either they’re getting paid under the table to be that “voice of reason”, or they’re a bit weirdly obsessive over the game. Basically, something going on is either a little creepy, or a lot dishonest. Either way, I’m inclined to gently disregard much of what that person says.

2) You can lawyer the nitnoid details of the Manifesto all you want. It’s pretty kitten clear that many, many, many people read that thing and interpreted it to mean something very different from what we got in GW2. To me, a Manifesto is the source document, and after-the-fact interviews with the people involved saying “well, what we really meant was…..” do not qualify as meaningful in this context. See below.

snip

So when you put that together with the other things I mentions, I look at the result and start to feel like I’m being taken for a ride here. I get the feeling that this is a company that will say whatever it thinks it needs to in order to try and convince customers to keep buying the product, and will backpedal when called on it and try to explain that “that’s not what we meant”. Then they’ll make comments about how players “come after us with torches and pitchforks” (look elsewhere in the forums – a Dev said this, and I cbf dealing with the poor search function here) when said players try and get them to either clarify, or simply call them on not doing what they said.

So yea. Why all the time and effort defending the thing? Maybe you like the game, and that’s fine, but it’s simply not the game described in the Manifesto – and never will be. ArenaNet have made what they’ve made, and no doubt are rolling in money now, but they’ve lost most of my respect as a company that strives for quality, and one that mans what it says. I don’t believe them any more – they’ve over-hyped and under-delivered far too often, and then tried to explain everything away. I don’t feel that they have an interest in being up front with their players, nor in putting any more effort than necessary into quality – just enough to keep a few big spenders in the gem store.

To me, ArenaNet was that special company that was willing to be different and innovative, and most especially, imaginative. To me, they’re no different than any other studio now. So I treat this game the same as any other now. I log on occasionally, putz around, maybe do something if a friend is on, and log off. There’s no way it’s come anywhere near capturing my imagination like Guild Wars did.

It could have – but I don’t trust this company any more. Enjoy your gear grind. I just don’t see the point in it.

Edit: typo

So why, on Earth, are you still? So much hate, one would think you would find somewhere that makes you happy?

Please explain to me why you, and several others still haunt these forums with rage and vitriol even though you have said time and again you have left the game?

I really want to understand, not trolling.

First off, no rage and vitriol here. Just disappointment.

The years-long love affair with Guild Wars. We’ve awakened to find a different company, and have been hoping to voice our opinions, be heard, and maybe see ArenaNet move back towards what they used to be.

We’re slowly giving up on it, now, though. I think you’ll find that posts from people like us are becoming fewer and fewer as we log in less and less. What I posted up there was pretty much my “I give up” statement, I suppose.

I had years of fun with ArenaNet. I’m saddened that it’s probably time to move on, but I guess nothing lasts forever.

From the look of it, there are a whole lot of people running around with GWAMM titles, saying that not all Guild Wars 1 players feel the same. I’m one of them, and my wife is another. So you speak for some Guild Wars 1 players, but how many? You can’t say and neither can I.

As for the rest of your post, if someone actually releases a clarification 3 days after the video, I’m not sure how anyone can say that doesn’t matter. In other words, some of it they saw was misintepreted, and they clarified it so people would understand. That’s what happens in everything. Newspaper articles post corrections all the time. People did misinterpret part of it and Anet responded.

You might ask why then didn’t they post a clarification of the grind issue? Because the game wasn’t out yet and they didn’t know 2 years later someone will eventually misintepret it.

No matter how many people eventually misintepreted doesn’t change the fact that gear isn’t mentioned at all in the manifesto. So there’s no real reason to interpret it that way.

Trajan.4953:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

The real issue here is those that choose to define grind by it’s “modern” definition as opposed to its original definition

Are we now supposed to believe that the dev was referring to crushing or pulverizing ?

No, but since there’s zero in the manifesto to say he was talking about gear grind, I don’t know why anyone would choose to believe that’s the case. There’s simply nothing in the language to support that conclusion.

From the:

“Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto
by Mike O’Brien on April 27, 2010

It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.

- Mike O’Brien"

So, what future fun reward is this referring to? The optional rewards like titles and achievements all required a ton of grind in GW. Most of the unique skins were gated behind RNG so severe that most people who tried to farm them devised solo farming builds to remove the chances someone else might get the drop. The only exception came with the chests implemented in EotN and added to UW and FoW, and those were still low chance RNG. Mini-pets? Those were time gated in GW. By extension, one can infer that “our games aren’t about grinding for a future fun reward” cannot be referring to any of the above.

What do other games offer as fun rewards that people grind for? What are people going to think of when they read this paragraph? What could he be referring to if it’s not better gear?

I think, and I may be wrong, but that A-Net is trying to design their game around the actual experience of the game to get to the reward. The problem, inherently is that most MMO players have been trained that the reward, and only the reward, is what’s important, and the best way to get said reward is by the fastest most efficient means possible.

jmho.

I agree with this.

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

The real issue here is those that choose to define grind by it’s “modern” definition as opposed to its original definition have nothing in the manifesto itself to support them. It starts off with Colin talking about this annoying grind before getting to the fun stuff. What are the odds that fun stuff is talking about gear. The game has always been activity based, rather than gear based. The other stuff in the manifesto they’re talking about, combat, events, personal story. They’re not talking about gear at all. That’s a reward based mentality that Anet has never shared.

Everything was about the experience. That’s why everyone complains about rewards. It’s not the way the company thinks.

He says “annoying grind before you get to the fun stuff” and he says “we want to change the way people view combat”. There’s nothing here about gear grind at all. People who claim there is have nothing in the manifesto itself to support them. What they have is their own opinion of what grind means from outside the manifesto.

Not even a year out since it’s official release and we can already see them starting to backpedal on “annoying grind before you get to the fun stuff”.
Case in point: Queen’s Gauntlet.
Sure, we get a free sample, but what a shame if you want to play it a lot.

Except that before Launch, in interviews, Eric Flannum said straight out there would be stuff to grind for for people who enjoy grinding. This isn’t something they added just now.

Again, the manifesto was talking about grinding to level. That’s it. That’s what grinding used to mean. It didn’t mean grinding for gear or tickets.

This was said again and again after the manifesto. They gave you fun things to do early on. I’m not sure in what world that equates to there would never be anything to work for in this game. These are not congruent statements.

Dressing the same thing in a slightly different manner really doesn’t make it different.
It is irrelevant that the old method was to restrict “fun stuff” via levels. The “fun stuff” here requires grind to get access. Same difference.

There’s a logical fallacy in your argument.

We don’t want you to have to grind to get to the fun stuff. Therefore, if there’s fun stuff to do BEFORE you grind, you’ve already gotten to the fun stuff. It’s not saying there’s nothing in the game to grind for. That’s the logical fallacy.

Guild Wars 1 had tons of stuff to grind for…it’s just that that stuff wasn’t required. More to the point, Guild Wars 2 is talking about how other games are. Leveling is one experience and playing after level cap something else. You speed level/power level to do raids. That’s how this game is different. The fun stuff, the stuff you do in the beginning, is the stuff you do later on.

I’ve lost count of how many times Anet has said this and it remains true.

Trajan.4953:

Aaaannnndddd thanks to this specific argument, there are now many people that know what the word “Manifesto” means.

True story. lol

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

The real issue here is those that choose to define grind by it’s “modern” definition as opposed to its original definition

Are we now supposed to believe that the dev was referring to crushing or pulverizing ?

No, but since there’s zero in the manifesto to say he was talking about gear grind, I don’t know why anyone would choose to believe that’s the case. There’s simply nothing in the language to support that conclusion.

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

The real issue here is those that choose to define grind by it’s “modern” definition as opposed to its original definition have nothing in the manifesto itself to support them. It starts off with Colin talking about this annoying grind before getting to the fun stuff. What are the odds that fun stuff is talking about gear. The game has always been activity based, rather than gear based. The other stuff in the manifesto they’re talking about, combat, events, personal story. They’re not talking about gear at all. That’s a reward based mentality that Anet has never shared.

Everything was about the experience. That’s why everyone complains about rewards. It’s not the way the company thinks.

He says “annoying grind before you get to the fun stuff” and he says “we want to change the way people view combat”. There’s nothing here about gear grind at all. People who claim there is have nothing in the manifesto itself to support them. What they have is their own opinion of what grind means from outside the manifesto.

Not even a year out since it’s official release and we can already see them starting to backpedal on “annoying grind before you get to the fun stuff”.
Case in point: Queen’s Gauntlet.
Sure, we get a free sample, but what a shame if you want to play it a lot.

Except that before Launch, in interviews, Eric Flannum said straight out there would be stuff to grind for for people who enjoy grinding. This isn’t something they added just now.

Again, the manifesto was talking about grinding to level. That’s it. That’s what grinding used to mean. It didn’t mean grinding for gear or tickets.

This was said again and again after the manifesto. They gave you fun things to do early on. I’m not sure in what world that equates to there would never be anything to work for in this game. These are not congruent statements.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

You’re entitled to your opinion. But English is English. It was my profession. And grind DOES mean to a whole lot of people, killing stuff to gain levels. That’s the first thing wikipedia says about it. That’s what a lot of people use it to mean.

It’s a bit ironic to say English was your profession and use wikipedia as a source. Just saying.

In fact, you support my point, because that’s exactly what happens in this game: you have to kill stuff to advance. So GW2 is grindy. What I mean with my comments is that generally the feeling of it being a lot or repetitive is subjective and therefore the definition of grind changes depending on the person.

Vayne.8563:

Certainly saying gear grind from the manifesto is an impossible place to reach from the words there. In order to get that definition of grind, you literally have to ignore all the sentences around it. And that is NOT how English works.

You’ll excuse me if I don’t accept you as an authority on how English works. Also that is subjective as language is a living thing and changes along with its users…for better or for worse.

Still, in the way I experience GW2 just leveling a toon is that it is a grind. It gets boring as each new zone has the same activities. Don’t care what other games are like, in GW2 leveling bores me as it’s repetitive. So to reach my goal of getting to level 80 it certainly feels like grind to me. Then at 80 getting legendary weapons and ascended items also constitutes grind in my view. So yes GW2 is grindy to me, unlike what was implied in the manifesto. See, this is not a legal battle in court where the letter of the law is what matters. What matters is the impression something gives. Anet either was too dumb to realise this would backfire or they did it on purpose because they knew it would give an impression that would disappoint people…but after they’d have bought the game.

Vayne.8563:

As for how I present things, unless you’ve been here for the long haul, and seen the way things have deteriorated on these forums with regards to what people say, you’d perhaps understand my attitude a bit better.

You don’t get to set the parameters for me. When I started playing the betas and the game was just out the forums were just as bad. Maybe it comes and goes but it’s not a deterioration over time. All this stuff has happened before and on this forum even.

Vayne.8563:

It doesn’t matter that you don’t. But I’ve been fighting an uphill battle for a long time, and I’m still far less offensive than many who continue to post about me.

See and this is not true. You’ve chosen to put yourself in this position. You act like a martyr (shame on you) but you put youself there. You saw the fire and decided to stand in it and you basically encourage people to be offensive to you by your rigidity, arrogance and twisting and turning.

The funniest thing is that in fact you are perpetuating, enabling people to behave like this and to continue to do so, even if just by giving them a target that is always there.

In essence your presence here is part of the problem that you want to solve and you even think you’re successful to a degree because you have a handful of yay-sayers. How sad…the reality is that it you only cause people to get entrenched and increase the traffic on this forum…negative traffic of course, because say what you want but discussions with you are not about how great the game is but about why other people are wrong according to you. I’ve never called you a white knight because I don’t think you are a positive force….you’re basically an apologetic.

You want to defend Anet and their statements as if it’s a court of law, looking at the letters and trying to sell your interpretation as truth as if you work for them by hiding behind the intricacies of the English language….sorry still not buying it.

Killing stuff to advance doesn’t make Guild Wars 2 grindy. In fact, killing stuff is the least efficient way to level your character.

Give me a break with the shame on me nonsense. You’re not my mother. See you’ll say something about how I express myself, but you’ll give a free pass to those who say much worse to me. This, more than anything else, shows your bias.

If you want to talk about how I talk about things from now on, instead of the topic, I’ll be reporting those posts. Because you are biased and I don’t need you judging me. You won’t change my behavior and I find your behavior toward me completely offensive.

They should definitely do more to make support/control roles viable. That I agree with 100%.

I don’t feel kitten if I’m enjoying what I’m doing. I obviously can’t tell you what to feel but if you’re having a good time…shouldn’t that really be the object of any game?

If you’re playing with a team of players who aren’t super-uber-leet, support can be very helpful.

It’s a pretty crappy path and completely out of line difficulty wise with the other paths. I think Anet should do something about it.

Serelisk.6573:

Also, people are already talking about those who go in and just afk until the game is completed, rewarding them with a daily completion in less than 10 minutes…

Is this the Keg Brawl game you want to play?

Edit: In fact, I just went in and did so and there were 2 other people running into walls in crab toss.

Dude, these mini games are so good! I love them! /end sarcasm

Right, people are Akitteng at minigames. So you make it so that they can’t or they can get reported like leeching in Guild Wars 1. That’s another issue.

But those same people go to keg brawl to get achievements anyway….this argument changes nothing.

Sleel.8365:

TooBz.3065:

Ok. But ascribing one of the seven deadly sins to someone is not generally a good way to have a conversation.

For illustrative purposes only here is the counter example, “Why shouldn’t I get two rewards for two characters. You could get two rewards also if you weren’t too lazy to level up an alt.”

Amen. Lazy is saying no one should have more then you cause you don’t want to do what they did to get it. Isn’t easy gearing up alts, or cheap. Much less making it so that it takes a solid month to make enough fused crystals for one set of armour, for eg, 2 if you want jewelry too, 3 or 4 if you want multiple weapon sets so you don’t get bored with using just one swap set. PER TOON.

Which is true ONLY for celestial armor, which didn’t even exist in the game two months ago. Don’t wear celestial armor, there’s plenty of other options out there.

Turn off the boxes. Go to your map screen, click on the eye and turn off map markers. Run around and explore. Dont’ worry about zone completion till later.

Problem solved.

Or play what you want to have fun and don’t worry about efficiency. Join a casual guild. Prosper.

Ranger is easiest but if you’re looking to pug end game dungeons it’s harder to find people to join you. If you’re not into dungeons it hardly matters. If you’re in a guild like mine it hardly matters.

Otherwise I agree that rangers are easy mode in open world PvE.

The last jumping puzzle was given to us last month, in Gendarran Fields. It’s one of the better ones.

The living story is designed to be in arcs. So for example, the Flame and Frost living story was a 4 month arc. The link between that and the next living story were what happened to the refugees.

After that we had the Dragon Bash party in LA which lead to the death of a member of the Captains Council, which tracked into the next Living Story about the Aetherblade Pirates (which introduced your new jumping puzzle). After that we had a vacancy on the Captains Council due to the assassination which led into the last Living Story before this one.

The reason the living stories aren’t one continuous story is so that it’s easy for people who take breaks and come back to pick up on the action.

Despite that some of the characters from previous living stories do show up in this one. Brahm and Rox are both present in this living story if you watched the instance.

The real issue here is those that choose to define grind by it’s “modern” definition as opposed to its original definition have nothing in the manifesto itself to support them. It starts off with Colin talking about this annoying grind before getting to the fun stuff. What are the odds that fun stuff is talking about gear. The game has always been activity based, rather than gear based. The other stuff in the manifesto they’re talking about, combat, events, personal story. They’re not talking about gear at all. That’s a reward based mentality that Anet has never shared.

Everything was about the experience. That’s why everyone complains about rewards. It’s not the way the company thinks.

He says “annoying grind before you get to the fun stuff” and he says “we want to change the way people view combat”. There’s nothing here about gear grind at all. People who claim there is have nothing in the manifesto itself to support them. What they have is their own opinion of what grind means from outside the manifesto.

The language of the manifesto itself doesn’t support that grind means gear grind. You can argue this till the cows come home but the language itself isn’t there.

The other complaints, with the exception of “everything you love about Guild Wars 1” are generally covered by the clarification.

And the two years that followed the manifesto, where Anet went into great detail about every aspect of them game shouldn’t be ignored either.

There’s only so much detail ANYONE can go into in a five minute video. One would think that general overviews are just that…general overviews. When you want to learn about something you have to follow it further to go deeper to understand it.

I don’t know why people would watch a five minute video and think they know everything they need to know about the game to buy it. That’s what I don’t get.

Villious.8530:

If you put yourself out there to be a target, you’re going to get shot.

I agree. So people shouldn’t be surprised when I shoot back. I’m not really complaining people are shooting at me. That I expect. I’m complaining that people are judging me based on the fact that I’m in defense mode.

Before you judge someone you should walk a mile in their shoes. This way, if they’re kitten ed off at you, they’re a mile away and barefoot.

It doesn’t matter how much support a thread has. It really doesn’t. Because Anet doesn’t base it’s decisions based solely on player opinion.

When Anet said there would be no way to change Eye color, there was an outcry from the community and they added it…but it was before the forums.

You seem to think that replying to a suggestion means they’re aware of it. Obviously Anet is monitoring what’s currently going on, ie the Living Story. It doesn’t necessarily mean they’re not aware of other suggestions. They simply don’t reply to them.

I’m not sure that most developers comment on most suggestions. But it doesn’t mean they’re not aware of them.

Anet will institute stuff on their timeline, not on anyone elses, which is pretty much how it should be.

Shockwave.1230:

Vayne.8563:

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Sure we’ve had this conversation in previous threads. End of the world time. The problem is, most of the forums are repeat threads. A good percentage anyway. So saying that this thread is repeating what was said before means little.

In fact, most forum threads are repeat threads from other forums from other games. We should have open world dueling was a thread in every game forum that didn’t have it I can think of. Same with open world PvP. Same was imbalance of professions. Some with not enough end game content.

Maybe we should ban every thread the repeats stuff and have like one post. Because that’s what you’d end up with.

As for the rest of it, it’s clear to me you don’t get me and frankly that’s fine. You think that you have the moral high ground because you don’t like the way I say things. Well, I dont’ particularly like the way you say things either. The difference is, I’m not the one complaining about it, or singling you our, or anyone else.

What I see on these forums is more akin to bullying than it is to constructive criticism. And it’s okay if you all want to gang up on me, because you can’t affect me in any significant way.

And lest you think this is just my opinion, there are quite a few people who think I’m bullied on these forums and wonder why I put up with it. I always tell them the same thing.

Because forum posters can’t hurt me.

My stance here has nothing to do with moral high grounds. The problem I have is not the actual opinion you have (different as it may be) but the way you present it. You wield terms like truth and majorities as if you could claim them….but you cannot. You quote generalities to avoid specifics. Each time I call you on a specific item you do this. You never actually answer something, you just retort, deflect or whatever. I actually really wanted to know what you meant with some stuff, but you can’t stop hiding behind those deflections.

“Quite a few people” think you’re being bullied? How many is quite a few? This is my point. What does that mean? It’s such a vague reference, that it could mean 5 as well kitten.

I just don’t like you talking as if you know something that you cannot actually know. And again you’ve clearly avoided that point of it yet again. That tells me enough.

Suppose I wished you were just honest about your opinion instead of wrapping it in all kinds of vague, unsubstantiable references. Nobody’s perfect and it can’t always be helped but I a do not care for people who make a sport out of it, intentionally or not.

I’ve just thrown stuff you said yourself against you and you simply dodge. If you dodge your own statements, that tells me something.

If you get the feeling that I am singling you out, perhaps you shouldn’t account for half the posts in this forum (yes that’s an exaggeration), because you do post a heck of a lot…it’s kinda funny that you think people single you out when you post that much. By the time I get to my next reply you’ve already made multiple posts in the same thread or something like that.

After all is said and done, notwithstanding your efforts, I still think the manifesto was a rather deceitful piece of marketing. Clarifications of any kind do not change that.

You’re entitled to your opinion. But English is English. It was my profession. And grind DOES mean to a whole lot of people, killing stuff to gain levels. That’s the first thing wikipedia says about it. That’s what a lot of people use it to mean.

Certainly saying gear grind from the manifesto is an impossible place to reach from the words there. In order to get that definition of grind, you literally have to ignore all the sentences around it. And that is NOT how English works.

As for how I present things, unless you’ve been here for the long haul, and seen the way things have deteriorated on these forums with regards to what people say, you’d perhaps understand my attitude a bit better.

It doesn’t matter that you don’t. But I’ve been fighting an uphill battle for a long time, and I’m still far less offensive than many who continue to post about me.

I see where Gehenna is coming from, Vayne does have a lot of endurance available in these forums. He’s like a thief with perma vigor, feline grace, withdraw, and roll for initiative.

Yep, I post a lot. True story. It doesn’t excuse the behavior of some (not most but some) forum members to me.

If my attitude has deteriorated it’s because I’ve been consistently attacked for a long time.

Find a join a friendly guild that supports new players. It’s probably the best single thing you can do for yourself.

Shadow Blade.1324:

Astralporing.1957:

There were dev mentions about all grind being only for looks, never for stats. Devs tried to get out of it later by claiming that the “1000 hours” mentioned should be taken literally, and not figuratively. The same approach has been taken to everything else in the Manifesto and previous dev statements – twisting the wording, or going for strictly literal interpretation, while fully abandoning the spirit of what has been said.

All your defence of Manifesto is also based on those methods, by the way. You keep saying that there’s nothing wrong with Manifesto, as long as the words used can be creatively redefined to match the new situation, even if the spirit of original message is long lost. And it is lost, no matter how hard you might try to twist the wording.

Developers on Guild Wars 2 Endgame 8 min in they start talking about legendaries at 10 min they explicitly state you get no game play advantage and its just for prestige

And when they said that it was absolutely true. In fact, it’s still absolutely true to this day. You have the same stats on a legendary as you do on an exotic. It will only not be true when ascended weapons come out, or when they somehow modify them.

True doesn’t mean true forever. It was true when they wrote it. Every game changes. Can you name one MMO that hasn’t changed and evolved. What about the stuff that they said one thing and was later changed on a positive note. Anet said there would be no way to change eye color…said it straight out…and there is. But no one claims they lied about it. The game evolved.

So a three year old document says something, that may not be 100% true 3 years later….it still doesn’t mean Anet lied.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Sure we’ve had this conversation in previous threads. End of the world time. The problem is, most of the forums are repeat threads. A good percentage anyway. So saying that this thread is repeating what was said before means little.

In fact, most forum threads are repeat threads from other forums from other games. We should have open world dueling was a thread in every game forum that didn’t have it I can think of. Same with open world PvP. Same was imbalance of professions. Some with not enough end game content.

Maybe we should ban every thread the repeats stuff and have like one post. Because that’s what you’d end up with.

As for the rest of it, it’s clear to me you don’t get me and frankly that’s fine. You think that you have the moral high ground because you don’t like the way I say things. Well, I dont’ particularly like the way you say things either. The difference is, I’m not the one complaining about it, or singling you our, or anyone else.

What I see on these forums is more akin to bullying than it is to constructive criticism. And it’s okay if you all want to gang up on me, because you can’t affect me in any significant way.

And lest you think this is just my opinion, there are quite a few people who think I’m bullied on these forums and wonder why I put up with it. I always tell them the same thing.

Because forum posters can’t hurt me.

My stance here has nothing to do with moral high grounds. The problem I have is not the actual opinion you have (different as it may be) but the way you present it. You wield terms like truth and majorities as if you could claim them….but you cannot. You quote generalities to avoid specifics. Each time I call you on a specific item you do this. You never actually answer something, you just retort, deflect or whatever. I actually really wanted to know what you meant with some stuff, but you can’t stop hiding behind those deflections.

“Quite a few people” think you’re being bullied? How many is quite a few? This is my point. What does that mean? It’s such a vague reference, that it could mean 5 as well kitten.

I just don’t like you talking as if you know something that you cannot actually know. And again you’ve clearly avoided that point of it yet again. That tells me enough.

Suppose I wished you were just honest about your opinion instead of wrapping it in all kinds of vague, unsubstantiable references. Nobody’s perfect and it can’t always be helped but I a do not care for people who make a sport out of it, intentionally or not.

I’ve just thrown stuff you said yourself against you and you simply dodge. If you dodge your own statements, that tells me something.

If you get the feeling that I am singling you out, perhaps you shouldn’t account for half the posts in this forum (yes that’s an exaggeration), because you do post a heck of a lot…it’s kinda funny that you think people single you out when you post that much. By the time I get to my next reply you’ve already made multiple posts in the same thread or something like that.

After all is said and done, notwithstanding your efforts, I still think the manifesto was a rather deceitful piece of marketing. Clarifications of any kind do not change that.

You’re entitled to your opinion. But English is English. It was my profession. And grind DOES mean to a whole lot of people, killing stuff to gain levels. That’s the first thing wikipedia says about it. That’s what a lot of people use it to mean.

Certainly saying gear grind from the manifesto is an impossible place to reach from the words there. In order to get that definition of grind, you literally have to ignore all the sentences around it. And that is NOT how English works.

As for how I present things, unless you’ve been here for the long haul, and seen the way things have deteriorated on these forums with regards to what people say, you’d perhaps understand my attitude a bit better.

It doesn’t matter that you don’t. But I’ve been fighting an uphill battle for a long time, and I’m still far less offensive than many who continue to post about me.

overlow.2980:

I see the reason we have no aspect arena being that it is teambased. All the ones we now have (i don’t know about kegbrawl tough never done it) are singeplayer based minigames. Besides aspect arena we lack the dragonball from dragon bash and the snowball thingy from winter. So I see it like they only bring the singleplayer focused minigames back

Keg Brawl is team based.

There are also achievement points you can get by actually playing the game. So if you just zoned in and tabbed out, you get none of them.

Sinifair.1026:

Vayne.8563:

Gehenna.3625:

TheDaiBish.9735:

http://amd-icbm.com/icbm/anet-blog-mmo-manifesto-reactions/

Partial interview

TL:DR – When they were talking about bosses not returning 10 mins later, they were referring to Personal Story bosses.

Which makes their point pointless because there are plenty of other games out there where storyline bosses don’t respawn either. Somthing called instancing, which is how it’s done in GW2 and also in many other games. No wonder people read more into it since they were being all excited about an exciting new thing, which was in fact already commonplace in newer games.

It’s not pointless, you’re simply missing the point.

First of all we’re talking MMOs, not single player games. And when this was made, there was no MMO that gave you a PERSONAL story. What does that mean?

In WoW, a human warrior is a human warrior. All human warriors start in the same place and run through the same quests. You’re not a poor human warrior or a rich one. You don’t have a personal story. All MMOs have stories. Not all of them have YOUR story. It’s pretty simple.

All Humans start in the same place in GW2 too. There aren’t many different options in the personal story, either. The combination of the personal story’s choices are many, but I think it was summed up to 33 roads to take, more or less.

- Ree Soesbee, when saying that “Everyone around you is doing the same thing you’re doing. The boss you just killed respawns ten minutes later…” was she not referring to quests and the Open World content of other MMO’s? Yes, I believe she were.
- Of course the bosses don’t respawn in the Personal Story. It’s not replayable and it’s instanced so everything in there isn’t respawning.
- The Open World content should not be compared to the instanced Personal Story. And I mean Open World content of any MMO.
- Even when playing an MMO, at least to me, the quests have been a personal story to me. Didn’t care that everyone else was doing the same thing I was (in GW2 they just removed the players through instanced content. Now you can’t see that everyone else is doing the same thing you are). It was a personal story still, or it was a compelling story (not so much for GW2. Still love the game though, but PS needs an overhaul).

Anet has said straight out, right after the manifesto came out, that Ree was talking about the personal story. Period. There’s no way you can argue this, because it was clarified. It’s why Anet published their clarification.

And yes, humans start in one place, but not everyone has to play a human and humans have 3 starting options by 3 starting options. In other words, there are 3 level 1-10 personal story paths for humans and 3 12-20 personal story paths for humans.

More than any other game gives you as far as I know anyway. And certainly more than any other game when the manifesto was published.

Nothing you’ve said here changes what Ree was talking about. Why was it news 3 years ago? Because no one had different instanced progression in ANY MMO prior to it.

I think if temporary content was made permanent, people would do it until they had the achievements and then it would be abandoned.

I think it would divide the player base so that people who play off hours would likely be screwed.

Every MMORPG I’ve played has dead zones and dead dungeons because they’re old. I don’t really want to see that happening here.

Liking mini games and spending much of their time playing minigames are very different things. I like mini games too…as a change of pace, not as something I spend most of my game time doing. Most of my guild is the same way.

Mini games for achievement points are sort of different because people aren’t necessarily playing them because they like them. I did play Aspect Arena for the achievements, but I much preferred Southsun Survival and wish I could have spent more time there.

However, it’s still a sideline for me and I spend a relatively small amount of time playing minigames…and I play a lot. What about people who play less (which is just about everyone).

Even if most people do like mini games not everyone has time to say do a fractal or dungeon and play a mini game.

Anet has these numbers…you don’t. It really is that simple.

So even if EVERYONE liked minigames it doesn’t necessarily mean that a lot of people spent alot of time doing it. It’s not just a matter of liking or not liking. It’s a matter of time spent playing.

Once you determine that (which neither you or I can), then you have to figure out how many mini games you can afford to have running at one time.

Serelisk.6573:

Vayne.8563:

Okay time to put an end to this. Here’s THE definition of demographic:

A portion of a population, especially considered as consumers.

Are you saying a portion of the population (all of whom would qualify as consumers in this game) are not anti-mini games.

You’re so blinded by your own love of Keg Brawl you’ve lost all perspective.

No, because there’s no such topic as anti-mini games. That group of players that actually doesn’t like something just because it’s called a mini game and refuses to play it for soley that reason has to be ridiculously small. Like 0.00002%. What defines a mini game does not define a game play experience or what makes them satisfactory, or there’s very unintuitive or niche opinions that would possibly make someone really dislike something just because it’s called a mini game. Your argument relies on the assumption that those who speak out against mini games not only never actually played and enjoyed a mini game in GW2, but are also a large group of people (which you’ll never get from judging based off the forums…) in the game.

You can be anti keg brawl, anti southsun survival, anti crab toss, and anti sanctum sprint, but this does not inherently mean you’re anti mini games because there could be a new mini game with an entirely different game play experiences that said person could really like.

Also, can you please stop trying to make some weird association between me liking Keg Brawl, and my opinion. As far as it extends, I love Keg Brawl and played it a ton, so I’m sad to see it get taken away. That’s as far as my bias or “perspective” extends, you saying stuff like that just devalues any qualities your points had before because it’s making you sound biased against keg brawl.

A demographic is a section of a population…that’s it.

There’s a section of the population that likes mini games and there’s a section that doesn’t. That’s case closed there. Unless the entire population likes minigames, there’s a demographic that doesn’t. If you don’t like the word, change it to segment in your mind. These people exist. Your denial of them is just that…denial.

Furthermore of the people in the game who like mini games, many don’t like Keg Brawl. How many? You don’t know. You have no clue. You’re using your likes and dislikes to try to prove what? That more people like it than I think? Good luck with that.

Anet DOES have the numbers of who plays and how much. They didn’t think it was worth keeping.

Now I wouldn’t care of they DID keep it, but it had become something for me that I’d ONLY do on a day that it was an achievement and I’d leave immediately after the achievement, and I really LIKE most minigames.

But Keg Brawl was ailing. You admit yourself it needed work. I’m not sure the work it would need would be worth the time.

Serelisk.6573:

Vayne.8563:

Do you know why it’s a fact that a percentage of people like minigames. Because we know for a fact a percentage of people don’t. How do we know this? Because they’ve posted repeatedly on this forum. They want less fluff content (in which they include minigames). They want more dungeons, a continuation of the personal story, and other stuff that aren’t mini games. That’s how I know a percentage don’t like them. And I do know some people personally who never play any mini game, including the co-leader of my guild. She’s tried them and has zero interest in them. She’s not in that demographic. Point one addressed.

Point 2, now that we’ve determined there is a demographic…

Please try and consider why it is that your co-guild leader doesn’t like “mini-games”. Do they not find it fun? Is it because it’s a terrible implementation, or is it because it doesn’t contribute to their PvE/WvW progression? Did it insult their families honor, did it cancel their favorite TV show? Is it not rewarding, is it bugged, are people exploiting it? Results do not exist in a vacuum, they have causes.

That is not a demographic of people, and it’s hilarious that you cannot grasp this. The facets of the game are not SPvP, WvW, Dungeons, Mini Games, etc. It’s SPvP, WvW, Dungeons, Sanctum Sprint, Keg Brawl, Southsun Survival, and Crab Toss. The game play experiences and formula of the content differ, therefore appealing to people for fundamental ways that the game was designed, not its execution.

The only thing they have in common is that they’re instanced, competitive and replace your skill bar with content specific abilities (note: extremely vague categories, SPvP could be considered a mini game if we actually adhered by this). However, Keg brawl and Southsun Survival have virtually nothing in common as far as game play goes and will certainly appeal to entirely different people. And if you can’t understand that last sentence, well then I have no more words for you.

So you saying that your co-guild leader doesn’t like mini games even though there’s 4 completely different experiences does not mean anything, cause it’s severely unlikely she doesn’t like them just because they’re labelled mini games, it’s more likely that the experiences they offered didn’t appeal to them. Who’s to say they won’t add a mini game that’s different from the other 4 that they completely love? Alternatively, she could just be uninterested in playing them because they don’t contribute to their character progression, but unless you’re willing to accept that a vast swath of the player base is going to reject any experience if it does not directly influence their PvE characters, this is not likely to establish any substantial demographic.

So your entire argument is false on the basis that there are probably a very limited number of people who will absolutely refuse to play a mini game or will think it’s not fun just because it’s a segregated experience. Otherwise, there’s 4 different games with entirely different game play experiences and reasons to enjoy them enough so that they each deserve their own demographic of players, not just one “people who like mini games”.

Okay time to put an end to this. Here’s THE definition of demographic:

A portion of a population, especially considered as consumers.

Are you saying a portion of the population (all of whom would qualify as consumers in this game) are not anti-mini games.

You’re so blinded by your own love of Keg Brawl you’ve lost all perspective.

Edit: My co-leader is neither progress oriented nor hardcore in any way. She’s more of an immersion player who enjoys time spent in the open world. She’s doesn’t like PvP either…or dungeons for that matter.

HumaCarrionEater.8254:

Because we don’t speak up much, I would guess. I’m trying to participate on the forums so there’s at least one voice saying no really Anet, please don’t make this a ridiculous grind treadmill grief fest.

Vayne.8563:

HumaCarrionEater.8254:

Yes, this exactly! Thanks to this attitude I am still very happy with the game.

I’m causal by temperment, but hard core for the amount of hours I play, and how into it I get. Just not the efficiency aspect. I’ll get what I get when I get it. I took me a good long time to get dungeon master. It took me six months to get a lengedary and I was lucky enough to get a precusor drop.

But mostly I just roam around with guildies, help people with stuff they need to get done, hang out and do whatever I think is fun at the time.

I think there are a lot more of us out there than most people think.

Yep, pretty much what I’m trying to do here. Stand up for the hard-core casuals. lol

Akari Storm.6809:

So wait, Keg Brawl isn’t in hoelbrak anymore? The only mini-game in since launch. The only mini-game that has a tutorial. This one should have been left alone.

Rotate the other mini-games, sanctum sprint/crabb toss/Aspect arena(in a new arena ofc)/some new take on Reapers Rumble or snowball fight/dragon arena. Why is Southsun Survival even on the menu when Evon lost.

Why purposely go out of your way to kitten people off? I don’t get it Anet. It’s the little things that start to add up.

I think Keg Brawl as it stands is kitten ing more people off (including me) than helping people out who like it. There have been more than one complaint threads about it on the forums.