Guild Wars 2

Mickey.4207:

One of my favorite lines from Manifesto..
“I swung a sword, I swung a sword again, Hey! I swung a sword AGAIN!…….We just don’t want players to grind”

Even after such a long time it still cracks me up. Now people like OP can try and clarify what devs actually meant by things they said in manifesto but one can not change the fact that it was pure exaggeration and nothing but a tool to create hype to the point where it was completely dishonest.

Nope, I don’t have to clarify this because Anet already has.

You don’t just swing a sword, even if you have a sword. They’re talking about other stuff like enviromental weapons (which they show as a catapult in the video when saying that). They’re talking about the quests where you change form to other forms. They’re talking about transformation skills, where you get five new skills.

You don’t have to like it, but that’s what they’re talking about. And those things are all in the game.

This has nothing to do with rules. You just keep changing your mind about what this thread is about. You said you wanted to clear up a couple of points that were in the blog…then it was about the entire manifesto. Then I said ok then let’s talk about the entire thing…then you basically correct me it isn’t and now it is…..

I am not anxious to close this thread I am just anxious to find what exactly your point is here because you keep jumping from one thing to another. I thought you had a specific point to make….now it’s turned into another discussion about the manifesto.

I told you you created another thread about the same subject.You said it wasn’t. Now it is…

Vayne.8563:

Edit: I actually can say most people or it’s commonly known if those things are true. I’ve been on forums long enough to know certain things are commonly known. You may not agree and that’s fine, but it doesn’t make it less true.

Commonly assumed. Not known. Just because a lot of people have the same idea is not proof.

As Bertrand Russell put it: " If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

A fact is a fact. Me saying anyone who’s looked into would know the fact isn’t condescending, in spite of the fact you want to paint me that way. It’s just not true.

It would be like me saying anyone who looked into fast food restaurants would find out that McDonalds is a big one.

I have very specific stats from multiple forums over the years, not one or two. Most recently was guildwars2forum.com when it was up. I know EXACTLY how many people looked at pages every day and exactly how many people posted. Not a guess. Real experience.

I’ve experienced the same thing in the dozen or so yahoo groups I’ve run over the years. And on other forums.

Unless you’re in a business where you literally have to post, the biggest percentage of people on forums will be lurkers. You don’t have to accept this as true, but it doesn’t make it less true.

As for forums, very often forum conversations evolve in threads. Yes, I started talking about one aspect of the manifesto and other things were brought up. I suppose we could close this thread and open another thread to continue those conversations, but I’m pretty sure that’s not all that efficient.

It shouldn’t go free to play till well after it’s released in China. I’m pretty sure the Chinese wouldn’t like it free to play here, while they have to pay for their copy.

Let’s say 1 million people in China buy it (which is a pretty low number considering their population…that’s still a ton of profit.

Maybe after it’s out in China for a year, then it can go “free to play”.

I would have been happy with either result, but I voted for Kiel, not because of the Waypoints, but because she was someone I’d interacted with and I had a history with her. I’d have sort of felt like I was betraying her to support Gnashblade, even though I’d rather have the Abaddon Fractal.

A couple of my characters did use what they got as drops to vote for Gnashblade, because those characters don’t have the same morals as my other characters. lol

Shockwave.1230:

I strongly disagree with the argument that people are taking the manifesto out of context. I believe what we have is people like me who saw the manifesto and its language and realized it happened to be consistent with our current understanding of what kind of gaming company ANet was. They were a players company, in my eye, that catered towards a crowd who didn’t want vertical power progression, preferred horizontal progression, and didn’t even know what time gated rewards were other than BDay gifts.

The change from those positions is drastic, and there don’t seem to be any modern games on the market like the original Guild Wars, not that everyone necessarily would switch due to lore, loyalty, and other reasons. That said, ANet made a one of a kind game for an audience that is no longer catered specifically to, therefore they are upset. The manifesto is what made many believe Guild Wars 2 would cater just as much to ANet’s original audience, therefore the manifesto gets a lot of heat.

How widespread this actually is remains to be seen, but I know applies to me and at least a dozen people I play with. Not that I view GW2 as a bad game, but it’s not on the same level as Guild Wars. I hope as time goes on ANet phases out the gating of vertical progression and makes obtaining max stat gear more trivial, and I would also hope they do a better job at making the game feel less punishing when it comes to character build and playstyle flexibility. They should also strike a better balance with timegated rewards. I believe these are the three biggest issues people have with ANet’s designs.

Except that the manifesto didn’t mention progression at all. It’s incorrect to suggest that it did. Nor did it mention vertical or horizontal progression.

It’s one thing to say that I know Anet and they changed, but quite another to say Anet put out a manifesto that said it.

I don’t think the company has changed as much as you did, but it has certainly evolved, that much I do know. But I don’t think adding in one tier of gear that’s not even completely in the game in 6 months, a tier of gear they said was planned for release but didn’t make it no less, makes them a game that centers on vertical progression.

I think people are making a mountain out of a molehill with ascended gear, and I know I’m not alone in this.

But none of this has ANYTHING to do with the manifesto. Not one thing.

Fortuna.7259:

Xenon.4537:

The only grind is for cosmetics, hence it isn’t required to experience any content in the game, hence you don’t have to do it to “get to the fun stuff.” Oh look, that’s a line from the manifesto. You don’t need laurels to get to the fun. You don’t need to farm CoF to get to the fun.

The grind is NOT just for cosmetics, thanks to Ascended gear, which they just threw into the game because of someone who panicked.

Also, with the grind-tastic mentality of the developers and the resulting base of players that are drowning in a long list of soul-sapping chores they are compelled to do, there is precious little left of “the fun stuff.” That’s what happens when all energy goes to the grindstones.

Except that in other games you need to grind to do content and in Guild Wars 2, you can happily due all the content without grind, except the highest level fractals. The fractals were designed specifically for those people who want to grind to “play the way they want”. But you can still go in and do the first 19 levels of fractals without any ascended gear at all….so you’re not locked out of seeing the fractals.

In most games you would be. It’s not required grind.

cesmode.4257:

I read a few of the posts in this thread. Is this entire thread all about the manifesto + personal story? Or about the manifesto as a whole?

It’s a conversation. I created the thread because someone basically said that I keep talking about this manifesto clarification but I’ve never produced it. Because of the expressed skepticism I produced the thread. But the conversation has moved on to include more of the manifesto as it does.

Fortuna.7259:

Vayne.8563:

Now you get to the nitty gritty of the problem.

There are a whole lot of people who really believe that they can take a single line out of the manifesto and turn that line to mean what they want it to mean, without taking the rest of the words around it into account, and all the stuff said about it afterwards.

The line “we don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2” is followed by “no one likes it, no one finds it fun, we want to change the way people view COMBAT”.

The paragraph starts with the line, “In other games there’s this boring grind to get to the fun stuff…”

What is Colin talking about…boring grind to get to the fun stuff. Not gear grind. Gear isn’t mentioned anywhere in the manifesto. Even the article referring to the manifesto written after doesn’t use the word gear, though it does use the words “fun reward”. Can you maybe perhaps interpret that as meaning gear. Maybe. But it’s not a sure thing. At the very least it would be something you’d have to think about. What did Colin mean when he said grind.

If you take the words out of context, the manifesto was betrayed. If you look at the context, backed up by months of commentary after the fact, then the manifesto wasn’t betrayed.

Whether you like the game or not, whether you like what was done or not, the manifesto itself didn’t change. The intentions of the devs didn’t change.

The one thing that DID change, was the slight vertical progression added to the game, which wasn’t mentioned at all in the manifesto.

In other words… it depends on what the definition of the word “is” is.

I am not interested in your legalese. The manifesto says nobody finds grinding fun. I don’t expect to find the resulting game centered on grinding. I don’t care why or how it devolves to grinding. It isn’t fun.

If anyone is taking a few words out of the manifesto and overly emphasizing them, it is you. Imagine describing the system for getting laurels in the manifesto. Does it seem just a little out of place? Does it make you feel like a hero in a dynamic world where what you do matters? Is it “the fun stuff”? Maybe its running CoF1 1000 times. The spirit of the manifesto is not alive and well in the game, and it shows.

No, it doesn’t depend on that. It depends on people not substituting definitions for something ALREADY DEFINED IN A DOCUMENT. Colin DEFINED what grind was fort he purposes of what he was saying. He said it straight out. It’s not some hidden code. Then two lines later, he referred to grind AGAIN, in which case in any common usage of English as a language, it would use the same definition.

When you take a line from a paragraph and use it to mean something that it was never intended to mean, it’s called taking it out of context. Because without the first defining usage of the word, it MIGHT mean something else…but in context, it can only mean one thing. Or at very least can’t mean gear grind.

The fact that some people won’t acknowledge this doesn’t make it less true.

TooBz.3065:

Cool. Just rounding out what the point of the discussion was.

Frankly I think we’d all be better off if we dropped the manifesto nonsense and focused on what makes this game great and what could be improved. So I agree (just this once).

Yep, it’s time to put it to rest. But since so many people keep bringing it up, I want to point out that some stuff being said is not accurate.

TooBz.3065:

Vayne.8563:

Now you get to the nitty gritty of the problem.

There are a whole lot of people who really believe that they can take a single line out of the manifesto and turn that line to mean what they want it to mean, without taking the rest of the words around it into account, and all the stuff said about it afterwards.

The line “we don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2” is followed by “no one likes it, no one finds it fun, we want to change the way people view COMBAT”.

The paragraph starts with the line, “In other games there’s this boring grind to get to the fun stuff…”

What is Colin talking about…boring grind to get to the fun stuff. Not gear grind. Gear isn’t mentioned anywhere in the manifesto. Even the article referring to the manifesto written after doesn’t use the word gear, though it does use the words “fun reward”. Can you maybe perhaps interpret that as meaning gear. Maybe. But it’s not a sure thing. At the very least it would be something you’d have to think about. What did Colin mean when he said grind.

If you take the words out of context, the manifesto was betrayed. If you look at the context, backed up by months of commentary after the fact, then the manifesto wasn’t betrayed.

Whether you like the game or not, whether you like what was done or not, the manifesto itself didn’t change. The intentions of the devs didn’t change.

The one thing that DID change, was the slight vertical progression added to the game, which wasn’t mentioned at all in the manifesto.

If that’s the point, how much does this really matter?

For example, would it be fine to say that ascended gear terrible, time gated content is boring, and grinding for a legendary is insufferable., as long as recognize that ANet never said they wouldn’t make it terrible, boring, and insufferable?

It’s one thing to say a company lied or betrayed people, its’ another to say the company made something I don’t like. These are completely different statements.

Sure you can not like it. It can be not fun for you. But since fun is subjective, you just think, okay I don’t find this fun and you move on. Or you talk about what will make it fun for you. What you don’t do is bring up something like the manifesto three years after it was made in an attempt to prove what? That it wasn’t true?

It’s true to some people, not just me. There are many who don’t have a problem with it. But I do think people do need to take responsibility for researching the game beyond one 5 minute statement of intent. And if they can’t take that responsibility, there’s nothing that I can say to change their mind. But really there was so much information out there. Very very little surprised me about what has happened.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

If your arguments are strong, you shouldn’t need to try to cast aspersions to try to make yourself look right. Doing so actually weakens your argument, rather than strengthening it.

If you have a strong argument, you shouldn’t use comments like “most people” or “everybody knows” either. You also shouldn’t criticise behaviour that you partake in yourself.

I mention that because I’ve seen a particular person do that on more than one occasion.

But hey you managed to get this clarification on the books thanks to one of the posters. Now what? Or is it time to close this thread?

We’re still discussing the manifesto, it’s not really breaking any rules I can see. Why so anxious to close this thread? At least some progress was made here (as compared to other threads on the manifesto).

Edit: I actually can say most people or it’s commonly known if those things are true. I’ve been on forums long enough to know certain things are commonly known. You may not agree and that’s fine, but it doesn’t make it less true.

Stuff that’s been talked about again and again over and over on forums, such as the percentage of people who actually participate out of the player base is pretty well documented. It’s not just forums either. All sorts of online groups.

Most people lurk. Anyone who disagrees with it hasn’t looked into it.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Gehenna.3625:

Anet created a huge world (too big in my opinion to start with) and then brought in events, fotm, living story etc right from the start to make sure people wouldn’t go to those leveling zones anymore.

It’s a funny thing really if you think about it.

I’m not sure any game has really found the secret sauce to this. In most MMOs you have a huge world (not as big as this but still big), where you level to max and you raid. Maybe you level an alt, but eventually the largest part of the player base is hovering in the most recent zone, doing the most recent content, having outleveled everything else.

WoW is clearly the most financially successful MMO of all time with the largest player base, and you still here people complaining about dead middle level zones.

Yep, that doesn’t mean however that the problem doesn’t exist here as well. This is not a comparison between games, but a discussion about what happens in this game, unless you want to make it into a GW2 vs WoW thing.

What I do feel is that Anet have gone out of their way to make a huge world that in my view is too big, already making sure it will spread people out more and then make new content, fleeting or not, that makes sure people even revisit it less.

I remember that Anet was saying they didn’t want to go the same way as they did with GW1 with bringing out new continents because it spread people out too much.

So to remedy that they made a world that is actually bigger than the original Tyria, party because by making a persistent world, effectively decentralising the world. And because they decided on 80 levels, which is way too much for this game, they also made it so people don’t spend much time in each zone to begin with. Then everybody’s just running around doing their hearts etc and it really makes it a persistent world made for solo play. DE’s that I’ve run into the last week or so while leveling were often myself alone or maybe 3-4 people total on occasion.

I am convinced if the game had only 50 levels and fewer areas so people spend a bit more time per zone on average, it would’ve been much better.

I just wonder why they made such a huge world that people spend so little in because all the new stuff is elsewhere.

Sure we didn’t get new continents (although I still believe cantha might yet come one day), but we did get new locations, spreading people out more. I just think it was a mistake to begin with so many levels and areas.

It spreads people out too much and makes leveling boring since it’s the same stuff in each area…just some areas are grassy, snowy etc but the exact same activities.

A smaller world isn’t necessarily a better world. What you end up with in this situation is traffic control. That’s what dailies and the living story do. They get people together at different places at different times. People can still find guilds and go explore together…my guild does that. But random people just population a zone. Maybe at prime time. What about all the people who play off hours. That was never going to happen.

Enter traffic control. Guild Wars 2 funnels people in the places where people are…and for a lot of people that works. It works for me, since I’m often online in my prime time when most Americans are asleep.

Rift had a smaller world, and everyone still basically ended up in the end zones. That would have happened here too.

I think humans like to gather at spots and they make those spots if the game doesn’t provide them.

I think the human that likes to be on their own all the time is the exception.

Get a bunch of people together and they’ll find a place to gather. It’s true in every game.

Fortuna.7259:

Vayne.8563:

If you wanted to get more than one dye a day,, you’d have to buy plant food in the cash shop. If you buy the Guild Wars 2 Official Strategy Guide, that information is still in it. That’s how recently it was changed…but it was changed, and for the better.

The only thing that underscores is how “Official Strategy Guides” are a complete waste of money. Oh and if that is still being sold in that state, for shame.

Vayne.8563:

Since the manifesto was released, there have been thousands of changes. This should be expected in any MMO, much less from a company that’s trying to innovate.

The point of a manifesto is to declare intentions that will remain consistent over a long period of time, even though the details of how to accomplish those intentions are not known with certainty. Of course the details will evolve. But when the details display a serious disregard for the intentions declared in the manifesto, then the manifesto is betrayed. The change from “all animals are equal” to “some animals are more equal than others” is not the same as changing the meal times.

Now you get to the nitty gritty of the problem.

There are a whole lot of people who really believe that they can take a single line out of the manifesto and turn that line to mean what they want it to mean, without taking the rest of the words around it into account, and all the stuff said about it afterwards.

The line “we don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2” is followed by “no one likes it, no one finds it fun, we want to change the way people view COMBAT”.

The paragraph starts with the line, “In other games there’s this boring grind to get to the fun stuff…”

What is Colin talking about…boring grind to get to the fun stuff. Not gear grind. Gear isn’t mentioned anywhere in the manifesto. Even the article referring to the manifesto written after doesn’t use the word gear, though it does use the words “fun reward”. Can you maybe perhaps interpret that as meaning gear. Maybe. But it’s not a sure thing. At the very least it would be something you’d have to think about. What did Colin mean when he said grind.

If you take the words out of context, the manifesto was betrayed. If you look at the context, backed up by months of commentary after the fact, then the manifesto wasn’t betrayed.

Whether you like the game or not, whether you like what was done or not, the manifesto itself didn’t change. The intentions of the devs didn’t change.

The one thing that DID change, was the slight vertical progression added to the game, which wasn’t mentioned at all in the manifesto.

I’m all for deeper quests in the game. It’s one thing this game is definitely missing that would improve it for people like me.

Xenon.4537:

Vayne.8563:

Xenon.4537:

Vayne.8563:

Oh, I’m well aware people are “winding me up” as we say downunder.

Vayne are… Are you Australian, after all this time?

I’m a transplanted American. I moved here about ten years ago, but yes, I’m a citizen of Australia now.

Ah, well I’ve already started reading your posts in an Australian accent, there’s no turning back. <3

LMAO! A NY accent would be closer…but it has dulled a bit. When I got here, everyone knew I was from NY. Now…not so much.

Xenon.4537:

Vayne.8563:

Oh, I’m well aware people are “winding me up” as we say downunder.

Vayne are… Are you Australian, after all this time?

I’m a transplanted American. I moved here about ten years ago, but yes, I’m a citizen of Australia now.

TooBz.3065:

Vayne.8563:

I listened. Anet posted that clarification VERY soon after the manifesto. And it was common knowledge at that time. Subsequent to that, they put out very specific stuff about what was and wasn’t in the game.

And that manifesto, it was up in that blog for a very very long time. Well over a year and a half before they migrated to the new blog.

So that manifesto clarification was there to see for a very long time.

Sure people will complain…I get that.

But when someone points out to them that it’s one document, one video out of dozens, and it’s old and it was clarified, what do they say?

Well some people all but accused me of making it up in the first place. New information always supercedes old information about any game. Everyone knows that.

Try buying WoW now and reading the first manual.

Yeah, ok. I know nothing about the history. I do know that I heard about the manifesto but not the clarification, which I see as a (the??) problem.

I will never buy WOW.

Right but the other problem is this.

Any game,, particularly an MMO, is going to go through changes in development as it develops. It’s just natural for this to happen. Old information gets supplanted to new.

In the first beta, which was long after the manifesto, this is how you got dyes. Dye seeds would drop in the open world. You’d get them just slaying mobs. But you didn’t know what color it was.

You’d go to an NPC in your home instance, and you’d give them the seed and they’d grow it for you. In 24 hours you would come back and find out what color you had. These dyes were account bound. You couldn’t sell them. You couldn’t do anything with a double but delete it.

If you wanted to get more than one dye a day,, you’d have to buy plant food in the cash shop. If you buy the Guild Wars 2 Official Strategy Guide, that information is still in it. That’s how recently it was changed…but it was changed, and for the better.

Since the manifesto was released, there have been thousands of changes. This should be expected in any MMO, much less from a company that’s trying to innovate.

Did your read the newer blogs about how Anet was an Iterative company and how they change things up all the time, even throwing out entire systems to be replaced by newer and better ones?

It’s how they work. Which means that their game (and in fact all MMOs) are merely a work in progress.

Faowri.4159:

I think what I expected more of was ‘everyday’ changes to maps in terms of rotating out old events, putting new ones in, developing old event chains into something new, etc. When I say ‘everyday’ changes I mean stuff based on existing world conflicts and problems, rather than big releases under a huge fanfare like the Living World has evolved into.

It would be nice, when I’m replaying Map X on character number 4, to stumble across new events I hadn’t seen before, or to see that situation Y that was here when I came through last had become something else. But all the living world stuff focuses on big, temporary themed changes driven by achievement grind and reward-hunting rather that minor changes to the everyday content that would really make the world feel subtly alive.

I agree this would be nice. But eventually, over a longer time, every event would be known and you’d be back to square one. People will know stuff and farm stuff. They’ll recognize patterns. As humans it’s one of the things we’re particularly suited for.

That’s why the Living Story is, in some ways, better. Because it has no real pattern. You can’t go back and farm it. Once it’s gone we’re onto the next thing. It’s living, but in a different way.

TooBz.3065:

Vayne.8563:

TooBz.3065:

I think the problem is that people viewed the manifesto as a “mission statement” as opposed to a marketing document. In fact it was only a marketing document. And as such, it’s misleading.

Saying that bosses shouldn’t reappear every 10 minutes and then saying that only applies to story missions is like a store saying that it doesn’t price gouge because 10% of the goods are reasonably priced.

I’m not saying that bosses can or should have a long timer, because this is an MMO and frankly I don’t think that would work. But the simple fact remains that the statement, on it’s face, is misleading.

And there will be forum posts about it forever because of this.

Actually no, they never said the bosses wouldn’t appear every ten minutes in the open world. Giving people stuff to do > than being “realistic”.

I didn’t say they did. (One more try)

But they did say MMO’s had lost their ability to tell a story becaue “everyone around you is doing the same thing your doing, the boss you just killed respawns 10 minutes later, it doesn’t care that I’m there.”

Of course they “meant” the personal story, however, the statement, on it’s face is misleading. It requires clarification. As long as ArenaNet puts forth misleading statements they will have people complain on the forums about it.

Also, if you read my post I did say that living up to that statement probably wouldn’t work in an MMO.

You said above that you would rather discuss opinion, but you didn’t listen to what I said at all or pay attention to the point I was trying to make. Instead you jumped on the first thing that you felt like addressing.

I listened. Anet posted that clarification VERY soon after the manifesto. And it was common knowledge at that time. Subsequent to that, they put out very specific stuff about what was and wasn’t in the game.

And that manifesto, it was up in that blog for a very very long time. Well over a year and a half before they migrated to the new blog.

So that manifesto clarification was there to see for a very long time.

Sure people will complain…I get that.

But when someone points out to them that it’s one document, one video out of dozens, and it’s old and it was clarified, what do they say?

Well some people all but accused me of making it up in the first place. New information always supercedes old information about any game. Everyone knows that.

Try buying WoW now and reading the first manual.

DeathMetal.8264:

Hi Vayne,

Thanks for info, I agree that you didn’t invent those threads and went back in time. However, Indigo’s and the DaiBish’s links worked for me now, it wasn’t before and found the explanation about the perma changes which applies to Personal Story.

Also, there was a post I read, but now lost it and forum search wont help me, about the grind. The poster quoted what Colin was saying about the “grind”.

Again, for me it, is important as I am:
a) New to MMO, this is my first solid MMO. The other one I tried are just unknown F2P MMO, and I also only did try WoW when it launch but not really played for long.
b) I was a solid Diablo fan prior to D3 but got let down and left D3 for GW2, and I would like make sure Anet has no track record of butchering their game
c) And bought GW2 because Manifesto was enticing, and I have no prior experience with GW1

I always wanted to learn more about Gw2, and I did get more info about the lore by buying all 3 books (have just started reading Ghost of Ascalon) and now, wanted to learn stuff about what Anet really meant with the Manifesto.

Tnx to all who provided clarifications…

I think the biggest thing that I can say about what Anet was trying to do, is that they’re now trying to do it with the Living Story. They really do want to make a living/breathing world. It’s been what they said and what they’re attempting to do all along.

Dynamic events aren’t the way forward, because they end up repeating endlessly. People complained about this, so Anet is trying events that repeat endlessly for a month and then go away. That happened, now this is happening.

You can also see from some of the random snatches of conversation and small details in the game what Anet is trying to do…sometimes with mixed success.

But Anet has multiple barriers to deal with. One of them is that people come to an MMO with the expectation that it’s going to be like every other MMO. They expect vertical progression. They expect better gear. They expect shinies.

Guild Wars 1 didn’t have the same sort of gear progression as other games, and so Guild Wars 1 players want NO vertical progression at all…not one whit. They want the top level gear they can get easily to be the BIS gear in the game.

It’s two completely different audiences requiring two completely different solutions. I believe Anet has offered ascended gear as sort of a compromise. Something that doesn’t lock you out of content (except high level fractals), and yet it’s something grinders can grind for if they want.

Anet has also said there would be things to grind for in the game, they just wouldn’t be required grind. They had this sort of set up in Guild Wars 1 as well. There was plenty to grind for, it just wasn’t required.

I hope this gives you a bit of insight, from my perspective at least, of some of the challenges Anet has had to appeal to two completely different sets of players.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Open world stuff never needed, nor was it supposed to need teamwork. It’s not particularly fair to people who don’t know about stuff. It’s open world. In almost every game I can think of, real team work is reserved for instances.

I don’t know why Guild Wars 2 would be any different…or should be.

That’s a bit of a weak argument. Is that why there are DE’s that are marked “Group events”. Is that why champions and dragons cannot be soloed?

And there are more dungeons than FotM, right?

Oh and every MMO wants to be different, Anet certainly marketed this game as innovate and different, so that’s a non-argument.

Groups don’t imply teamwork. Groups imply multiple people. There’s no reason to assume that five people who show up at an event will even be able to coordinate. The game is made intentionally so that people who don’t want to play with others, but simply play besides them, can.

There are reasons to assume that but you obviously don’t. Thats fair enough. One of the reasons that I would assume that is because of two reasons:

1) GW2 is different because it doesn’t imply teamwork with group events apparently. Because it’s different from pretty much any other MMO I know it’s logical that people who’ve played MMOs before would think some team work is involved.

2) If FotM is the only place that requires team work in PvE, then that’s a bit sad. If that’s the case then obviously team synergy is not something you are taught during the game. If 99% of the game is not about team work, then why think it’s strange that people don’t see this game as a game for team work? Honestly if team work was so important then there should be more team stuff. The other dungeons are also poor examples because team work is not required as long as you dodge and ress each other…that’s as far as it goes. So really FotM is the exception in the game and therefore not the rule….

but remind me what does this have to do with the topic again about feeling heroic?

I think Arah requires team work at points. I think that other dungeons at points require team work too. I’m pretty sure you’d need team work at this time in at least some paths of AC, and in TA F/U path.

And there are guild missions that require team work as well, unless you’re in a guild so large you can totally zerg anything. Some of the most exhaustive teamwork I’ve done is in guild missions.

But I can’t think of any game that really requires team work in the open world. The closest thing I can think of would be something like retaking the temple of balthazar, which can be quite tricky without some organization.

Gehenna.3625:

Anet created a huge world (too big in my opinion to start with) and then brought in events, fotm, living story etc right from the start to make sure people wouldn’t go to those leveling zones anymore.

It’s a funny thing really if you think about it.

I’m not sure any game has really found the secret sauce to this. In most MMOs you have a huge world (not as big as this but still big), where you level to max and you raid. Maybe you level an alt, but eventually the largest part of the player base is hovering in the most recent zone, doing the most recent content, having outleveled everything else.

WoW is clearly the most financially successful MMO of all time with the largest player base, and you still here people complaining about dead middle level zones.

Galen Grey.4709:

Vayne.8563:

I’d be much happier if people just discussed opinions instead of trying to discredit other people by calling them fan boys or white knights. It’s not constructive.

I totally agree with this. If we like the game we like the game, its only natural we’re going to support most of those design decision because well we agree with them and like them. It has nothing to do with white spray painted heavy armor.

That doesnt make us right and those who disagree with us wrong.

Thats the whole point of having discussions. maybe we miss something maybe others miss something or we just like different things who knows. Who we are doesnt get into it though.

If your arguments are strong, you shouldn’t need to try to cast aspersions to try to make yourself look right. Doing so actually weakens your argument, rather than strengthening it.

Phantom.8130:

kossman.8206:

Grabs Popcorn

it’s been an interesting little soap opera, hasn’t it? especially when you take all of the acts in the other threads about it into consideration? i started keeping up with it a week or two ago, how about you?

/munches popcorn

Munch quietly, I’m working here. lol

I’d be much happier if people just discussed opinions instead of trying to discredit other people by calling them fan boys or white knights. It’s not constructive.

Erasculio.2914:

Vayne.8563:

I’m using visible clarification responses to show there was a clarification. We never saw a dinosaur but we know they were there. This is what remains of the clarification.

Vayne.8563:

You can only see the thread, the blog is down.

Uh… Twice in this topic people have linked the old blog. You are ignoring that evidence because it shows you are wrong.

Vayne.8563:

Craptrain.7203:

Tip: When you find yourself having posted 5 posts in a row in a single thread, it is time to take a break.

I like when he posts. Each time he does, I look more reasonable.

Craptrain was talking about you, which was very easy to see considering how you are the only person in this topic with multiple posts in a row. Your interpretation of his statement is wrong.

Vayne.8563:

I have specific stats from the forums I used to moderate.

Vayne, posting your so-called qualifications doesn’t really work. It doesn’t matter if you were an editor – in this topic alone, you have proved how you ignore evidence that you don’t want to see, and how your interpretation of a given statement is often wrong. It’s exactly what you are doing with the Manifesto – you are ignoring all the things that prove you wrong, and your interpretation of what remains is also wrong.

I’m sure we have some lurkers. If they had believed you, this topic has just given them reason to not do so anymore, by your own hand. The Manifesto, in the entirety of its anti-grind speech and with its auxiliary clarifications also anti-grind, is a lie.

There are as many people supporting me in this topic as supporting you. I think maybe you think you’ve made more of a point than you have. In fact, I know this to be true.

And the longer it goes on, the more people see your posts for what they are.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

I can’t tell you how many have contacted me over the months to thank me for being a voice of reason here.

Uh huh…somehow that doesn’t surprise me.

But let me tell you. I don’t find you the voice of reason at all and your posts clearly indicate by your style that you are trying to convince people, because that’s what proving a point is: showing other people you’re right and they’re wrong. But without empirical evidence it’s just a battle of opinions.

Someone else here just said he manifesto shouldn’t be taken literally but seen as their intent. But then you can’t prove intent, it’s just words and beyond that, if you can’t take it literally then what exactly is it they intended? That’s the beauty of it.

Marketing at it’s best. My view is that they failed their intentions, based on my interpretation of it. And since that’s all I can go by that’s a fair opinion to have.

I feel endgame is just grind
I don’t feel heroic
Everything I loved about GW1 is not in GW2

You can’t disprove that because they are how I feel.

There is no end game in the traditional sense of the word. That you feel the need to create one shows you don’t get what the devs have tried to do here.

I understand that you don’t feel heroic. I even understand why. I have no problem with you saying that.

I have said all along that the only line of the manifesto I take issue with is the “everything you loved about Guild Wars 1 line”. It’s the rest of the manifesto that I’m talking about.

And I don’t care whether you think they failed or succeeded. All I did was say that they didn’t LIE. People use the word…people are wrong. It really is that simple (unless those people can prove intent to decieve).

And yes, I am trying to convince people…but I’m not trying to convince the people I’m talking to.

I’d say I’ve been pretty successful.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Open world stuff never needed, nor was it supposed to need teamwork. It’s not particularly fair to people who don’t know about stuff. It’s open world. In almost every game I can think of, real team work is reserved for instances.

I don’t know why Guild Wars 2 would be any different…or should be.

That’s a bit of a weak argument. Is that why there are DE’s that are marked “Group events”. Is that why champions and dragons cannot be soloed?

And there are more dungeons than FotM, right?

Oh and every MMO wants to be different, Anet certainly marketed this game as innovate and different, so that’s a non-argument.

Groups don’t imply teamwork. Groups imply multiple people. There’s no reason to assume that five people who show up at an event will even be able to coordinate. The game is made intentionally so that people who don’t want to play with others, but simply play besides them, can.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Sure…it doesn’t clarify everything but it is a point I’ve had to repeat a half a dozen times easily, because people either don’t believe it or don’t care.

The other points can be debated separately. Of course the line “everything you love about Guild Wars 1” can’t be taken literally, because Mike O’Brien isn’t a mind reader. Eveything WHO loves about Guild Wars 1.

And that’s the only line of the manifesto video that’s really questionable.

Those who question the grind comment, and try to point to a single word (down from a single line) in another document have a whole lot less proof to go on than I do. So much so that it’s almost silly, and everyone sees it but them.

Well that point is considered clarified to me. I do not share your view on what’s questionable in that video because to me pretty much all of it is (which is normal in marketing, it’s not special in that sense), but here’s a thought for you to consider:

People mostly don’t care about proof. When people feel a certain way it’s because of what they experience and you can never disprove that. Even if you could prove that Anet’s intentions were good and it was an honest misunderstanding, it still doesn’t change most people’s feelings, because feelings don’t care about proof.

Trying to prove that people are wrong only angers them more and only makes people entrench, it doesn’t resolve anything nor bring people closer together.

If someone is angry and you want to convince them of something, you won’t until you can first get emotions out of the way and that means taking an interesting in their feelings. Showing empathy (remember understanding someone doesn’t equate to agreeing) and finding out why they feel that way. People don’t do that in forums, that’s why nothing ever gets resolved on a game forum.

I’ll give a simplified example:

Critic: This game is crap and it’s totally grindy!!! Anet are horrible!!
Defender: You are wrong because this game isn’t grindy at all, you are just lazy.

So, you think this will help?

So what about this:

Critic: This game is crap and it’s totally grindy!!! Anet are horrible!!
Defender: Sorry to hear that you hate this game. So, what exactly makes you feel this game is grindy?

Now, most people aren’t interested in the other person’s feelings or reasons, they just want to fight an be right. I call it forum pvp and I am not here to tell people how to act. But if you want to diffuse discussions and actually bring people together closer, my view is that the second example is more constructive than the first.

As I’ve said, more than once, I don’t believe those who made up their minds will change their minds. There are people on this forum who don’t like the game…not because the game isn’t good, but because their expectations of the game or the genre are different. It’s an incompatibility. And that’s okay.

But I don’t have to convince or talk to them and I don’t try to. I respond to them, to reach people who are reading but not posting…which is most people.

The angrier and the more off base they get, the more reasonable I see to OTHER people. And it works.

I can’t tell you how many have contacted me over the months to thank me for being a voice of reason here.

Changing the mind of someone who doesn’t like the game? There’s no percentage in that at all.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Okay, but the posted clarification actually does say what they said. It says clearly what I’ve said on thread after thread.

Ree is talking about the personal story and Colin is talking about dynamic events. Bottom line, I’ve said it time and time again and people have called me on it again and again. It’s one less thing to discuss when the manifesto is discussed.

And since the actual clarification has been posted now, hopefully some of the people repeating that you kill a boss and it respawns ten minutes later is a lie, will change their tune.

Yep I saw it too. So it talks about two points of the manifesto, not the whole manifesto by the way. Two points in fact that are not the things people generally are upset about though.

It doesn’t clarify the “we don’t want people to grind” issue
It doesn’t clarify the “we took everything you liked from GW1” issue
It doesn’t clarify the “we want people to feel heroic” issue

So yeh they made a clarification about two smaller points but not the ones that really matter to the more heated discussion about the manifesto. So my guess is this won’t really change much about the discussions even when people see this clarification and take on faith that Anet didn’t do a 180 but actually were being honest in their clarification.

Sure…it doesn’t clarify everything but it is a point I’ve had to repeat a half a dozen times easily, because people either don’t believe it or don’t care.

The other points can be debated separately. Of course the line “everything you love about Guild Wars 1” can’t be taken literally, because Mike O’Brien isn’t a mind reader. Eveything WHO loves about Guild Wars 1.

And that’s the only line of the manifesto video that’s really questionable.

Those who question the grind comment, and try to point to a single word (down from a single line) in another document have a whole lot less proof to go on than I do. So much so that it’s almost silly, and everyone sees it but them.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Assyrian.4827:

Esplen.3940:

Assyrian.4827:

Vayne.8563:

Kurakura.7281:

In GW2 you are a nobody. You DO NOT matter!

Speak for yourself. You may be nobody and not matter. Me…I matter. Just depends on your perspective.

He is right Vayne because in GW2 we are all DPS no team work required.

Really? Perhaps you haven’t tried Fractals, then.

You are right I don’t play fotm because I don’t like vertical progression.

So you ignore the hardest content in the game and them make claims about teamwork. Plenty of teamwork in WvW and TPvP, and in PvE there’s still plenty of team work in my guild.

Maybe because everyone doesn’t roll an lul easy-mode warrior and we actually play professions we enjoy playing that incidentally make the game more challenging.

You should be able to agree that if team work only matters in FotM, that it is not representative of the whole game. Are you actually advocating that people must play every part of the game?

FotM is the ultimate treadmill for the sake of treadmilling. The game has a lot of different elements to it. Story missions, DE’s, hearts, dungeons, WvW, sPvP and so on….

oh but wait this is not really on topic anyway is it?

Some people don’t feel like a hero in this game, because of the story line mostly I’d say. Someone here said you don’t need to be the president but the point is not so much who’s got the biggest title but who is the story about. And anyone who denies that the later part of the story is not centered around Trahearne’s character and how he and his team saves the world has not payed attention.

Look at it like, I dunno, I remember that series Xena: The Warrior Princess. Well her sidekick would be Gabrielle, if I remember right. I think that people expected to play the role of Xena, but ended feeling they got the Gabrielle part. I can understand that feeling because I share it.

I remember going to speak to this tree and going to the gates of Arah….a big battle ensued. The problem with this big battles is what I demonstrated earlier. It’s not me who wins this battle, it’s a group of npc’s and I just happen to be there as well. Part of it is the story and part of it is the programming. If I die, well I just respawn and let the npcs do the work. The battle is NOT lost without me in that sense. That really just doesn’t feel epic or heroic to me.

Open world stuff never needed, nor was it supposed to need teamwork. It’s not particularly fair to people who don’t know about stuff. It’s open world. In almost every game I can think of, real team work is reserved for instances.

I don’t know why Guild Wars 2 would be any different…or should be.

Everyone is playing the new minigames. They only have another 2 days to get the achievements if they want them.

I spent much of last night playing Aspect Arena for example, when normally I’m in the open world.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

It’s quite obvious that someone in that thread mentioned directly that Ree was talking about the boss you just killed comes back ten minutes later in the PERSONAL story. There was another link with in interview about it in this very thread, from a dev.

If someone said that, and it wasn’t true, someone would have jumped down their throat. It didn’t happen, so logically it’s likely true.

Any other conclusion would be a biased one, because the logic is relatively simple.

Obvious is not proof. But if you actually had reading skills you would’ve known that I conceded that particular point. See, you are just going in circles. We discussed that point but then said yourself it was about the whole manifesto and not this small part. So now I discuss the whole thing and you bring it back to this one small point again. Circular reasoning….not helpful.

Also logic is not the same as truth. Someone can be logical about something and still be wrong. Logic is wholly dependent on the information you have. Since we normally don’t have all the information, we cannot assume then that using logic equates to speaking the truth.

Logic also doesn’t exclude bias. Because if two people who had the same bias were discussing they would find each other’s reasoning logical.

Logic just means you follow certain set of rules or a system in your reasoning. Doesn’t mean the rules or the system are right. So please stop confusing logic with truth.

Really, without empirical evidence there is nothing to prove. And the underlying problem is that Anet could’ve lied and made the clarification just as a means to soothe everyone. Your assumption is that it was an explanation of what they originaly intended, but that is also taken on faith. It’s not evidence even if we had the clarification.

You could be right, but you could be wrong.

So learn this: You cannot prove what they meant or intended, you can only prove what they said, not why. You are not in their heads. So you are trying to prove something that you cannot prove: intent. This is why this manifesto discussion will never end, because no matter how much you think you’re right, you can’t prove it and neither can anyone else, whether they are for or against.

So you can give your opinion. That’s fair. But to think you can prove anything is delusion.

Okay, but the posted clarification actually does say what they said. It says clearly what I’ve said on thread after thread.

Ree is talking about the personal story and Colin is talking about dynamic events. Bottom line, I’ve said it time and time again and people have called me on it again and again. It’s one less thing to discuss when the manifesto is discussed.

And since the actual clarification has been posted now, hopefully some of the people repeating that you kill a boss and it respawns ten minutes later is a lie, will change their tune.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Why are you guys still fighting about whether there was clarification or not? We’ve posted the link to the blog, so everyone can read what ArenaNet said. I’m baffled about this argument, truly.

You know…I don’t need to be convinced…because I remember it from when it was first posted.

I can’t answer for the other guys. lol

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:%

Really? LMAO.

Okay so if someone said the clarification said X and it didn’t, you wouldn’t find someone disagreeing with it in a thread? REALLY? I see.

You would find someone disagreeing. I don’t know why you bring this up since I didn’t say that.

Vayne.8563:%

Actually this thread is about the clarification, not the manifesto itself. And if some people don’t want to read about it, they’re free not to be in this thread. It’s not like they have to come here.

But some people might be interested in that clarification and if the original isn’t around, I provided the next best thing.

What a load of crap. Either there is a clarifcation or there isn’t. The next best thing has to be taken on faith as it’s people replying with their interpretations in mind. Nothing more. The clarification is missing but the subject is still the manifesto. I wouldn’t see a missing clarification as a real topic. Nonetheless, you are the one who is naive enough to think this topic will make an actual difference. I tell you it only adds more oil to the fire and therefore is counterproductive to your own goals.

Vayne.8563:%

It seems that if someone wants to say bad things about the manifesto, 800 threads can be made, but the second someone wants to point out something different about the manifesto, well that’s just a duplicate thread, right?

Incorrect. I am also against people making 20 threads about the same subject, but it happens. I don’t have the power to stop it. The mods do. All I am pointing out is that your behaviour is the same. You have a different opinion on the matter, but for the rest you are just like them. I don’t see how you can justify that just because you think you are on the right side of the matter, that it’s ok to have the same behaviour. That’s why I speak of double standards. If you think they shouldn’t do it, then neither should you or just shut up and deal with it.

Vayne.8563:%

Biased much?

About what and why? Is it because I have a different opinion than you do that I am biased…because if that’s the reason, you’re the one that’s actually biased.

It’s quite obvious that someone in that thread mentioned directly that Ree was talking about the boss you just killed comes back ten minutes later in the PERSONAL story. There was another link with in interview about it in this very thread, from a dev.

If someone said that, and it wasn’t true, someone would have jumped down their throat. It didn’t happen, so logically it’s likely true.

Any other conclusion would be a biased one, because the logic is relatively simple.

Zoid.2568:

I can’t enter the blog, seems down to me.

You can only see the thread, the blog is down. When Anet migrated the blog to the new site, the kept current documents, but didn’t transfer the older ones…partly because older information in the blog would be inaccurate. The game has obviously evolved.

The dye system is the best example of this. The earliest post about the dye system is completely different than the dye system that exists now.

It was changed due to fan complaint.

Surely this depends on the profession and weapon choice.

My engineer and ranger are as good underwater as they are on land. My necro, I’m not quite as happy with.

Assyrian.4827:

Vayne.8563:

Assyrian.4827:

Esplen.3940:

Assyrian.4827:

Vayne.8563:

Kurakura.7281:

In GW2 you are a nobody. You DO NOT matter!

Speak for yourself. You may be nobody and not matter. Me…I matter. Just depends on your perspective.

He is right Vayne because in GW2 we are all DPS no team work required.

Really? Perhaps you haven’t tried Fractals, then.

You are right I don’t play fotm because I don’t like vertical progression.

So you ignore the hardest content in the game and them make claims about teamwork. Plenty of teamwork in WvW and TPvP, and in PvE there’s still plenty of team work in my guild.

Maybe because everyone doesn’t roll an lul easy-mode warrior and we actually play professions we enjoy playing that incidentally make the game more challenging.

My main is a Mesmer and I don’t enjoy playing melee I’m a caster.
can you please explain what kind of team work is needed if all what we have is adding more dps.
It is proven before that anything other than dps is not the best way to go because it takes more time to do the same thing.

I don’t know. I play with teams of people all the time, and we have team work, or more technically syngery…which is teamwork too.

As a mesmer, for example, there are times when it really pays to put down a time warp and times when it doesn’t. You want to maximize damage, it means people have to be aware of when you’re putting it down. That means their strong skills haven’t already been used and aren’t already on cool down. Sure you can win without doing that, but then, there’s the efficiency word.

There are times when players go down and need to be rezzed. That means some people kiting the bosses away from downed players while others go rez them.

I’ve seen some great come backs during the lupi fight, for example, with three people down.

Now, if all you do is play with warriors, the alleged most efficient way, that’s one thing. But if you walk into a dungeon with an engineer, a ranger, an ele and a necro in your group, you’re going to need some coordination. And since my guild is filled with necros, eles, rangers and engineers, yeah…we need to coordinate some things.

Other people trivialize and blow by content in their desire to run run run the dungeon as fast as possible. Not everyone plays like that.

My most memorable moment in this game comes from a dungeon run in CoE in the early days, when most of the party got wiped by Project Alpha and just my mesmer and a thief were left, kiting and fighting, running back to try to rez people as we passed, a bit at a time, till we got the entire party back up and beat him.

I’d say that was some pretty decent teamwork.

emikochan.8504:

Vayne.8563:

ASB.4295:

Malevil.2104:

I’m realy hapy that Kiel is winning. Face harsh truth, fractal involving epic battle of 6 gods would fail hard, like Zaithan fight version 2 … Epic expetations = epic fail.

Plus, almost noone who’s still playing GW2 right now has any sentimental connection to Abaddon. Compare that to the experience of pre-nerf thaumanova a heck of a lot more active players had and you’ve got yourselves a winner.

So all the people I see with the God Walking Among Mere Mortals title are just figments of my imagination? Who knew?

“almost noone”

I see a lot of people with that title. Many every day. I’m pretty sure it’s not almost no one.

Roaming AI…easy to do in an instance, very hard to do in the open world.

Think about how it would work in the open world. It’s not a small group of people or a single person with 7 heroes (or 3 heroes and 4 henchies). Sometimes it’s 1 guy who’s not the best player in the world…or new to the game.

They couldn’t hit that guy with a group that included a minion master, an ele and a monk, because he’d be dead. No one to heal him, no spirits or minions…it would be a slaughter.

Roaming patrols make it harder to balance the open world. That’s why I’ve seen very few MMOs with an open world that have roaming patrols like that. There are some (some of the dual wolve or coyote encounters…or the small raptor packs), but not that many, because the open world isn’t built for them.

Also remember in Guild Wars 2 creatures respawn in the open world which never happened in Guild Wars 1. That means it’s harder to balance. All you’d need is a random patrol respawning on top of you. That’s a whole lot of not fun.

Of course, that means that instanced play is always going to be superior to a persistent world…if done right. That’s one of the drawbacks of having a persistent world.

Behellagh.1468:

Of course Vayne has the most posts, everyone else is debating him.

It’s good to see the wayback machine post showing the clarification. Of course facts rarely matter to ideologues.

I have the most posts because I thought there was a achievement for it. lol

IndigoSundown.5419:

I don’t know, guys. Anet does seem to have this thing about story not being repeatable. Once you’ve killed Zhaitan, you have to roll another character to experience it again. The Living Story (some of it, anyway)? When she goes she’s gone. Colin was pretty clear in the recent twitch session that while more content will be permanent, story elements will be one-time and done.

This was a change from GW, where one could kill Shiro, the Lich, Abaddon and the Great Destroyer as many times as one wanted.

Did people really think that GW2 would have content in the persistent open world or in dungeons what would never repeat? We already have people complaining about the Living Story not being available on demand. Can you imagine the outcry over, “Shadow Behemoth is dead, hope you were here. It will never return.”

To be fair, you only had 25 missions in Prophecies, 20 in Nightfall and 13 in Factions. Yes, they were repeatable but most of the quests weren’t repeatable. And those missions were pretty much it.

Compare to Guild Wars 2, where you have like 50 personal story instances for each race…and different variations on race.

I can’t imagine wanting to repeat most of the personal story on the same character, because I’d want to see different parts of the story I never saw before. This is something that you couldn’t do in GW 1 at all.

ASB.4295:

Malevil.2104:

I’m realy hapy that Kiel is winning. Face harsh truth, fractal involving epic battle of 6 gods would fail hard, like Zaithan fight version 2 … Epic expetations = epic fail.

Plus, almost noone who’s still playing GW2 right now has any sentimental connection to Abaddon. Compare that to the experience of pre-nerf thaumanova a heck of a lot more active players had and you’ve got yourselves a winner.

So all the people I see with the God Walking Among Mere Mortals title are just figments of my imagination? Who knew?

Assyrian.4827:

Esplen.3940:

Assyrian.4827:

Vayne.8563:

Kurakura.7281:

In GW2 you are a nobody. You DO NOT matter!

Speak for yourself. You may be nobody and not matter. Me…I matter. Just depends on your perspective.

He is right Vayne because in GW2 we are all DPS no team work required.

Really? Perhaps you haven’t tried Fractals, then.

You are right I don’t play fotm because I don’t like vertical progression.

So you ignore the hardest content in the game and them make claims about teamwork. Plenty of teamwork in WvW and TPvP, and in PvE there’s still plenty of team work in my guild.

Maybe because everyone doesn’t roll an lul easy-mode warrior and we actually play professions we enjoy playing that incidentally make the game more challenging.

DeathMetal.8264:

I hope forum have “block” capability too, I would have block Erasculio completely. A recent thread he created proved his limited understanding of TP, much less of the deeper aspect of the game:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/The-Trading-Post-goes-against-GW2-philosophy/first

Gehena, is also a player who seeks a game that could make him/her feel heroic. I have given the definition of being a hero in one of the thread, and I guess s/he failed to read it:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/I-am-NOT-a-Hero/page/3#post2536444

As I do not want to derail the topic, I would have to agree with others as the proof posted by Vayne is circumstantial at best. But that doesn’t mean it’s false, unfortunately, that doesn’t mean it’s true as well. So jury is still out on that one, unless, a solid, undeniable, and beyond-doubt documentation is produced.

However, Vayne, is innocent until proven guilty as proofs to claims about his/her “wrong doings” (i.e s/he lies, and/or has wrong interpretation, and/or blind fanboy/girl, etc) are also not solid enough…

Be that as it may, as it stands right now, I am one of those who really likes to know what Anet means when they posted the Manifesto. I won’t lose sleep over it, as I can accept that sometimes, a game’s direction has to change, in order to be successful. I won’t push Vayne (or anyone else) to do it, but it would be awesome to know those stuff, at least, from my PoV.

But how do you explain an entire two year old thread, about something that dozens of people posted on. Did I go back in time and make it up, based on the fact that one day I might need such a thread.

It’s only logical to assume the thread is real, even if the comments in it aren’t perfect. Still if someone said something blatantly untrue SOMEONE would have challenged it.

And this is only backing up what I’ve remembered personally and have been saying all along. So now we have an eye witness, on top of that circumstantial evidence.

And I do agree…they’re not listening because they don’t want to hear. The truth is mighty inconvenient to those attached to their own version of events.

Erasculio.2914:

Vayne.8563:

Oh I understand. What you guys don’t understand is that you’re not my target audience. I get my message out to others talking to you.

So you’re using the invisible clarifications to convince the invisible forum posters, while ignoring the existing clarification (which says you are wrong) mentioned by the existing posters (who say you are wrong). Of course, perfectly logical.

I’m using visible clarification responses to show there was a clarification. We never saw a dinosaur but we know they were there. This is what remains of the clarification. If you think I went back in time to make a thread that I didn’t know I’d need, well, I guess you can believe that. It goes perfectly with most of the rest of what you believe.

And the audience to which I’m talking isn’t the guys who have already made up their mind. Why? Because they have already made up their mind. Truth doesn’t matter to you. Only the silly games you play with it.

Everyone who’s been on forums for any length of time knows that the bulk of all forum dwellers are lurkers. The estimated amount of people that post on forums is between 10 and 15 % of a community. It’s true on most forums and it will be true on this forum.

I have specific stats from the forums I used to moderate. The invisible people you quaintly write off are the majority…talking to them make sense.

Talking to you…not so much.

Erasculio.2914:

Vayne.8563:

But those who have claimed the clarification didn’t exist (or didn’t say the things I said it said) have lost points, that’s all.

I don’t think anyone has claimed that clarifications didn’t exist, rather that the clarification that does exist goes against your arguments. Which is pretty much the truth – the blog posts you don’t want to link to show how you are wrong, meanwhile your “evidence” are second hand posts by common players.

Vayne.8563:

Craptrain.7203:

Tip: When you find yourself having posted 5 posts in a row in a single thread, it is time to take a break.

I like when he posts. Each time he does, I look more reasonable.

I have the feeling you didn’t understand exactly who Captrain was talking about… It’s ok though, you don’t have to make a new topic claiming you have a link to one of his posts talking about dyes.

Oh I understand. What you guys don’t understand is that you’re not my target audience. I get my message out to others talking to you.

It’s all good.

Craptrain.7203:

Tip: When you find yourself having posted 5 posts in a row in a single thread, it is time to take a break.

I like when he posts. Each time he does, I look more reasonable.

ArchonWing.9480:

Vayne.8563:

ArchonWing.9480:

Ah, so all that cool stuff referred to the personal story.

That’s great. Where is this awesome personal story? I saw a pile of trash that was passing itself off as one in game, but I doubt anyone with any appreciation of art or gameplay would consider that more than 25% complete. I thought that was just Trahearne’s story?

This has nothing to do with whether you like or don’t like the personal story. That’s another issue entirely. People are saying the manifesto lied when it said certain things and to avoid misunderstanding at that time, Anet clarified it. Whether you like what they did or not is fine. I don’t care. What I do care about it people deliberately misinterpreting something to prove some sort of non-existent point.

You didn’t like the personal story. Okay. Doesn’t change the fact that it’s a personal story. And some people did like it.

My own experience is that personal stories were uneven. An no, I didn’t have the problems with Trahearne that most people did.

Oh, but it does matter.

In practice, story or not, much of what was stated in the Manifesto did not materialize in the game in an adequate shape or form.

Point is, they expressed certain ideas that appealed to some people because they were good gameplay concepts. Now you can argue the developers never intended this for the main game itself, but that just doesn’t reflect on it very well, I’d say. I’d rather not believe that they confined these ideas to the PS, because if they did, well that’s really kitten disappointing.

Honestly, this is just a bad way to defend the game by shifting the argument over there especially with such spotty evidence. Regardless of what Anet “lied” or whatever is actually not too relevant to me. It’s better to talk about how those useful concepts can be applied to the game itself in its current context. Because a lot of those concepts went against what people consider shallow and repetitive gameplay, and we wouldn’t want that in here, would be?

There’s no spotty evidence here, and if someone on this forum hadn’t all but accused me of lying there would be no post like this.

I don’t need to excuse the manifesto. Each person can make up their own mind. But those who have claimed the clarification didn’t exist (or didn’t say the things I said it said) have lost points, that’s all.

Because frankly, I know I’m not going to convince people that interpreted wrong. You are not my target audience.

But there’s a whole bunch of lurkers out there that are seeing something new that they can add into their own debate.

Tachenon.5270:

Manifesto Clarification: a (melo)Dramatic Representation of the Ongoing Manifesto (melo)Drama

Act I

Liber Manifestivalensis: We just don’t want people to be azure in this world!

Forumites: Lies! I see azure people all the time in this world! This world is full of azure!

Manifestopholes: That’s not azure, that’s sky blue! The Holy Manifestivals never said people couldn’t be sky blue! Only someone <insert random personal insult here> would say otherwise!

Forumites: …

Act II

Liber Manifestivalensis: Your actions affect things permanently!

Forumites: Lies! Everything resets! Nothing I do matters!

Manifestopholes: The Holy Manifestivals provided us with the Sacred Writ of Clarification which explains how any confusion perceived in the Liber Manifestivalensis was due to typographical errors! And I, Manifestopholes, know all about typographical errors, because I, Manifestopholes, was once a tygropapher!

Forumites: Source?

Manifestopholes: Ain’t nobody got time for that!

Forumites: …

Act III

Manifestopholes: HAH ha! I, Manifestopholes, seeking far and wide have at last found relevant passages in another repository of sacred texts in which other Forumites testify openly about having read the Sacred Writ of Clarification – which not only proves it existed, but also supports my claim that the Holy Manifestivals were talking about how the only changes an individual can make that make any persistent difference exist only in that individual’s Individual Experience, in which the people that that individual already met, when reintroduced later, don’t seem to remember they already met that individual! Er… I mean, see! It existed! People talked about it! Therefore, I, Manifestopholes, am right and you, the <insert random insult> Forumites, are all wrong! Wrong, wrong, wrong! Neener neener!

Forumites: /e golf clap.

-30?-

Funny. In no way accurate but funny.

People will often try to use humor as a tool to ridicule something that’s true. It doesn’t make it less true. 4/10 for the effort though.