Guild Wars 2

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, but they could have been adding additional content over the past eight months, instead of adding the raid content that only raid players can enjoy.

No, they couldn’t because there was no content to be released. Raids weren’t ready at launch of HoT that is why we have seen 3 extra releases of the wings.

Ohoni.6057:

Were they? I assumed they were shifted from other positions. In any case, they still could have put these folks to work on more casual content, and I bet they would have knocked it out of the park.

Yes, they were.
http://www.pcgamer.com/arenanet-hiring-designer-for-guild-wars-2-raid-content/

And no, if you are a specialist you shouldn’t be “used” for different things. That is what you call “wasting ressources”. It’s all about business!

Ohoni.6057:

Frankly, you don’t get to judge. Are they not that hard for you? Maybe, and it’s fine for you to say so. Are they not that hard for me? You can have zero valid opinion on that. If I say they are too hard for me then you just have to accept that as true, and if you want to have an opinion on it, then you’re limited to whether you care that it’s too hard for me or not.

Ok, then maybe it’s hard for you now. But it isn’t when you learn to adapt. It’s the same thing people were arguing about Lupicus in Arah being impossible to beat while others had 0 problems, some did decent, others were struggling but get the job done after some attempts. Only the group of players that didn’t even try was still complaining but they got less and less and less. It’s so easy to whine about a problem than to make an effort to eliminate it. Same thing with real life although we are talking about a game here.
And do me a favour. Look at Arah now. Tell me: Where is the challenge? This content is faceroll and groups are only playing it for collections, some tokens or the 5g chest after 8 dungeons but the spirit and the atmosphere has gone after adding the enormous powercreep and also revamp of specializations before HoT. I seriously don’t want raids to become like that soon.

Ohoni.6057:

It isn’t really even difficulty that’s the major factor, at least not for me, it’s the massive inconvenience of it all. That you need a relatively large team of people who all need to be relatively good at their roles, and if any one of them screws up then chances are you have to start all over again. That may be fine by you, but it will never be fine by me, and again, you don’t get a say in that.

The lfg and guilds are your help. There are enough lfgs with groups only looking for 1-2 players to start. When my guild – and we are only 4 raiding ppl atm – are looking for a group we don’t need to spend much time to organize 6 more players. Also you will find enough guilds who are recruiting inexperienced players. Not even training guilds. I see more and more guilds advertising for newer players to raid although they are clearing both wings weekly. That means your overall success will be there, it is virtual guaranteed.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t think this is a reasonable position, but you’re entitled to hold it.

It’s as reasonable as your position tbh.

Ohoni.6057:

But again, if the raid team had spent the same amount of time and effort crafting content EXACTLY like the raid, but scaled to be for more casual players, then those casual players would have more content available than if those developers spent the time making raids. Again, we agree that it’s possible they could not have sped up the existing LWs3 plans, but it’s preposterous to argue that from a casual player’s perspective there couldn’t have been better uses of their time.

Ohoni, you are missing the point that the one raid that belongs to HoT hasn’t been released before the coming Tuesday. It’s like we would have had 1 HoT map every 2 months. So raiders were in the disadvantage to not having content they wanted as a whole from the start! On the contrary all the open world fans got 4 maps + fractal revamp, legendary collections and much more since the day of release.

Also, the team was hired to design raids – these were open positions people could apply for. It’s not that they took other designers out of their current jobs. Even if there is much overlapping in informatics or at least game design. Those guys are not there to give the usual vanilla content. They are specialists in what they are doing at best.

And still I don’t see any valid argument for an ease mode. Raids are not that hard. Players are not excluded from a lore like in dungeons because the raid story is not implemented to experience a storyline, it’s all about fighting the bosses and if you want, you can read the stuff on the ground which nearly nobody is doing inside.

If you folks get an easy mode, I want to have an easy mode for legendaries as well so I can craft them in maybe 30 minutes from 0 on. Or I want to have all achievements done in let’s say 10 minutes per achievement, so that I can have all other PvE, PvP and WvW achievements at the end of the next week maybe?
—> That’s the level we are moving on right now!

- For a start, there are enough guilds who take newcomers with them and there are also enough inexperienced groups in the lfg that also let you join
If you deny that you aren’t telling the truth!
There you go:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/lookingfor
and I was chilling in the lfg yesterday for hours while watching soccer —> enough training groups there for everybody

- Raids are “challenging group content” – a content made for a base of players that felt bored with 99% of the rest of the GW2 content
Don’t compare raids to dungeons or fractals – they are not comparable and should never be. It’s a different content, not made for everybody like PvP is not for everybody and WvW is not for everybody.

- Due to this content being challenging you cannot walk into raids without a proper built char otherwise this content wouldn’t be challenging anymore.

- While I agree that it’s not easy to establish a complete 10 man guild group for raiding, it is still possible. But it’s also enough to have 1-xx friends that are good enough to go for a challenge and your goal to be successful will be achievable soon.

You just have to try and stop giving up!

Blaeys.3102:

This will all be moot soon regardless – as soon as people actually have to spend those legendary insights to make gear. I wonder how many people will accept the answer “I would link my LIs, but I had to use them to make precursor armor” or, even better, not make the armor so they can continue to link insights

IMO, this is silliness only practiced by insecure raiders who need the people they bring into their groups to be capable of carrying them through fights.

Well, I dont think it’s silliness to set up a requirement for your raid group if you want to go through very fast. The best groups I pugged with were the ones with “eternal only” and/or LI requirement. Last monday such “eternal” group was able to kill VG & Gorse the first try + Sab the third try. My fastest pug run so far and I have been in a lot of pugs since raid start. Sure, it can work without and it already worked for me but not on the safe side every single time.
Also, when people start to craft the legendary armor you will still have the “tonic buff” for selection.

Your argument about being insecured isn’t valid either because even if you open a group with 4-6 players (not 7-9 with all being your friends or guild mates) and you only set up a language demand there are always people joining that are not speaking the recommended language, refusing TS and more. Yes, asking for LI isn’t a good choice alone because you can fake them – sadly, I have seen those fakers and they were booted after detection (which is easy due to playing horribly) – but it pevents the honest players from joining.
And one last point about “carrying” even with 4 man you can’t carry players through the raid if they aren’t able to handle the encounter. While I agree a good guild group can take over the important roles with their 7 – 9 man team and carry 1 or 2 baddies, a good guild group of 4 – 6 cannot.
That’s why you have to ask for something reliable to ensure your amount of baddies is as low as possible.

I bet all folks complaining here in this forums about being excluded from raid lore have neither watched every cutscene in all dungeon story and exploration modes nor would they read the pages laying on the ground in spirit vale & salvation pass. It’s a pretended argument.

Let’s be honest:
- You need to invest very much time to finish a collection in GW2
- You need to invest very much time to build up your asc armor to run fractal level 100
- You’ll need to invest very much time if you are following the world boss train
- You need to invest very much time to complete achievements (some of LS2 & HoT story achievements aren’t made on the fly)
- You need to invest very much time to achieve a good amount of cash (multiloot Tarir, SW, CS or FG train w/e)
and
-You need to invest very much time to go through raids till you can clear them in a comfortable amount of time

Raids aren’t even hard and yesterday, when I was watching the european championship I opened the LFG and found enough very gentle and friendly group announcements in the raid tab over hours! Only a few were neutral or offered with “exp” or a decent amount of LI.

I think the problem of complaining non-raiders lays deeper. And maybe if you don’t want to play that content for whatever reasons, don’t play it. You won’t miss anything important because it was pointed out that the lore is only there on the ground and not told by cinematics or the bosses.

Same thing for me with PvP and WvW. This stuff is not interesting or good enough for me to play it. On the other hand raids are, so I put effort into it although sometimes it is tough to find a decent group on Thursday or later. But hey, none of the above mentioned things like farming for gold are done automatically.

Also, I think a huge chung of players writing here still hasn’t realized that the story isn’t told like in dungeons. And not a single player I’ve met so far has been interested in reading the stuff although they were interested in HoT story. Raids are different, the sidestory is less important than anything else. It’s just there to not simply put boss after boss with some random events.

Rednik.3809:

Neox.3497:

Just a reminder that you got 4 big open world maps in the last ~7-8 months. That’s like 1 new big open world map every 2 months. And more open world maps are probably on the way with LS3 too.

So yeah not sure why you complain.

Three years since last dungeon/fractal.

The dungeon/fractal community complained about this since ears. We are happy that we have raids now because we were asking about dungeon fixes, new dungeons, new fractals and more. Lists were made from players with all the bugs and with possible improvements that would have been easy to implement but nothing happened so far although we were told to do so from Anet!

cranos.5913:

Yup they’re amazing, but the QQ won’t stop until LS3 comes out and will continue 2 weeks after that again because as with all LS content there’s 0 replay value.

Exactly this! Cannot repeat it enough times.

Maybe you should have followed their announcements and not suggest anything that won’t become real!
The raid belongs to the addon as a whole raid just split up into 3 wings with 3 different releases.
It has been said several times now that the third raid wing is followed by LS3.

Stop pushing out things that aren’t reasonable and that are against the given official informations.

And a big NO to making raids easy! They are good as they are and many decent players have been successful in there. We don’t need the last percent of content to be like the other 99% cakewalk.

Even here in this thread enough has been said, one addition to DiogoSilva:
I think, some of you have a wrong impression of raids. You think they are designed like dungeons or fractals. But you are wrong. The only cutscenes I can remember is the last one after killing Matthias and a little unimportant one after killing Trio. The cutscene of Matthias is still watchable if you’ll just enter a cleared instance. The rest of the stories is literally laying on the ground on papers you can read or told by npc’s that are still there after having cleared the raid. There is no so called interaction or guidance when progressing during the raid. It’s the other way round, if you want to find something out about the lore you won’t come into favour of fighting the bosses. That’s why a completed instance is sufficient here. The atmosphere is far different from dungeons.

Lucky.9421:

It would be good to find a way to make raids more accessible to players so more people can experience the content and story.

i.e. – Like an “explorable” mode or something.

Ask people to open a completed raid instance for you. There is no lore directly involved with bossfights. Everything is “laying” on the ground and you can read it. You can still watch the final video (the only one video scene in this raid!) although the instance has been cleared.
You absolutely miss nothing without playing the raid and there are enough gentle & friendly players willing to open this cleared instance for you.

To “feel” the content you just have to give it a try and stop complaining about things around the raid.

Many of you who accuse raids to be a problem of the whole thing forget how it was and will probably still be in GW2. Before and after LS2 all people were claiming that this game was lacking content. It is one of the biggest problems of this particular game and its company. The droughts were so long and the playerbase got shrinked enormously due to this problem. I remember myself quitting several times and being disappointed about not having any interesting thing to do.
So, the content drought has 0.0% connection to raids – in other mmo’s we would have had 2 full raids after 8 months and not 2/3 wings. It’s the small company team that cannot deliver appropriately.

No, there is no dungeon dev team any more. Anet’s focus on 5 man content is fractals. We will see new or reworked content there in the future without having a concrete date for such releases.

I bet the same guys complaining about raids being hard/not being their content/whatever reason will complain about the LS3 and how bad/hard/bugged/boring this type of content is.
And afterwards the mourning will be even bigger because the next new content takes eons to be released. ^^

Ask yourself: Does any story mission from tutorial to the end of HoT story has any high replay value?
Rhetorical question, I know, and that’s why I am personally very very very satisfied with raids being in the game.

Amineo.8951:

For me it is, because these tools are for legendary crafting and not real awards…

If you have to think like this, it’s your own problem.

Amineo.8951:

I could never get seriously into raids because of elitism, I managed to complete both Wings 1&2 but each time I just login, people just up the insights required by 6 each weeks and other dumb requirements, like how the hell am I supposed to do?

Insight requirement is not elitism.

There are enough groups without requirements clearing both wings regularly and take pugs with them. Just be patient and wait in the LFG, many of those offers are popping up over time.
Choose these groups and after certain weeks you will have 30+ LI and most other groups with requirements will take you with them too.

Amineo.8951:

I don’t have time to complete both wings every weeks, and guilds would kick me a lot because of how often I’m switching games this year…

Maybe raids aren’t for you. Raids weren’t meant to be pugged, it is possible to do so but they weren’t developed for it.

So the answer is “Yes.”, they are legit and ethical as long as nobody is exploiting or players are getting kicked to replace them with a buyer after starting the fractal.

onevstheworld.2419:

Outside of DPS and healing, you need hard CC and condi clears.

- The own healing is enough or at least should be. No need for a player that is healing constantly. Also ppl should learn to groupplay and rez faster/asap. Met several pugs that were too slow to rez and/or rezzed during the wrong moments resulting in a group wipe.

- You don’t need hard cc either. If everyone knows the encounter you’ll have 0 issues to get her stacks down without cc’ing. Bringing good cc is a plus which can make it a little bit faster but it’s not a must.

Holy sh.., d you even know that many of the very good PvP-players (not talking about the few “esports guys”) are the ones who are posting in this subforum because they usually play PvE and belong to the speedrun community? I guess not. This ignorance hurts…

And second paragraph leads to absurdism when you notice that PvP is way more toxic than PvE. So after your logic PvP is far-out from thrill and challenge.

Not rly. Have a closer look at the groups. Most often ppl still playing the real old zerker stuff – here in EU. There are also enough groups with Reapers in it but it’s fun to see players still not adapting. It’s fine for me and it shows – like I already wrote – that ppl have no problems with retal on bosses – not even in pugs. So I think the whole discussion is a lil bit exaggerated.

Yeah, and PvP for challenge, E-Sports as well as glory and honor. LOL!

1. Why you don’t move after beating the boss? You are not rooted or stunned after his death.

2. It’s rather 10 seconds or less but under no circumstances a minute. xD

At first I thought about a troll thread but OP has been too rarely in the forums for this, I guess.

I see dozens of guards/dh in the lfg and the groups are all asking “meta zerk”, " exp zerker" and more and almost no “condi”. Seems to me that only a few players have issues with guardians and/or higher fractal scalings.

Well, I just mentioned rewards in the context while you were focussing completely on the reward thing. Nevermind.

And now you should admit that there are many players playing PvE for the challenge plus or minus loot and also that a huge chunk of PvPers (the majority) are only there because there is a backpiece to acquire, not to mention the chasers for titles, APs and reward paths. ^^

If I played for rewards I would not play GW2. True story.

And please stop hijacking another discussion, STIHL. This thread is about another topic and not rewards.

I must admit that I’haven’t seen this issue as a problem at Mai during my runs with pugs. There is only one real annoying thing while running lvl 100: Pugs not having enough AR.

STIHL.2489:

Vinceman.4572:

At least raids are played for challenge and fun, unfortunately the rewards aren’t that good.

The several thousand posts on this topic have made it very clear that no one plays raids for the challenge or the fun, it’s all about that loot.

Yeah, because the loot is so awesome besides shards. It’s more that raids are newer than fracs, more challenging, the loot is decent so the packet is ok. Fracs are way more rewarding and that’s the reason for the overwhelming majority to play them.

Rednik.3809:

Because, you know, last new content in fractals was almost 3 years ago, but even now fractals population remaining huge, healthy and constantly getting new players? If this is not sign of really successful and well-made endgame content, then I have no idea what content is good at all.
And I’m pretty sure that if anet will decide to move their raid team to fractals, it will be MUCH more successful than any raid in current implementation.

Not that fractals got several (little) revamps, new achievements and so on and they are still boring. It would be the same with raids. Almost no one is running them for fun!
Also the fractal community was claiming that it takes way too long to get a frac update, new ones and many other things more over a long period so that many fractal players have left. Fracs are casual content now, they weren’t before and no one was whining. So, it has nothing to do with raids being bad content or a fail implementation.

Rednik.3809:

Because it’s a major (if not main) characteristic of successful endgame content? Like, you know, FotM, where you have constant flow of casuals coming to low scales and then improving up to T4. That’s how you keeping your population big, healthy and satisfied.

Hmm right, not that fractals are hell boring and people just playing them for the rewards. At least raids are played for challenge and fun, unfortunately the rewards aren’t that good.

Rednik.3809:

Just like we trusted them about huge success of esports, right?

First, they tried to be successful in esports but that’s no fast-selling item. you cannot enforce it.
Second it was obvious to most of the players that GW2 is far away from being an A-level esport game.
Third you should stop arguing with conspirancy theories. It won’t help anybody.

Again: Anet is comfortable with raids like they are and they have the numbers.

And why should I give an example of an increasing raid playerbase, especially after 8 months when content gets older and older and it’s obvious that some people will leave raids like they are doing in any other game? I still don’t get that and no, I am not the responsible one to show you an example.

Furthermore, are you having significant numbers besides your own guild? Have you done a valid statistical analysis of lfg entries about raids and your results showing a significant decrease in players playing the raid?

Ok, all that has been rhetorical, you don’t have.

I think we all better trust the company than a forum guy with worthless assumptions.

Dude, I am just asking myself why you are facing so many problems while a huge part of the raid community that is pugging doesn’t.

Also, why are you pugging when having a raid guild? If you aren’t comfortable with pugging raids, just use your guild group and stay away from random players.
Last but not least: raids were never meant to pug. Yes, it is working but the idea was never behind it.
In addition all pugs I met wanted to have the players at least listen to TS. So, you can’t speak of a pug anymore because it is more organized than a pug.

Rednik.3809:

Can you give an example of not raid-oriented guild where raiding playerbase not decreased since raid release?

I don’t understand what you are trying to say, sorry.

A not raid-oriented guild won’t play raids or maybe they try them and sure, in many cases they haven’t succeeded but Anet is very pleased about the numbers of players that raid consistently. Even more, the company confirmed that there are way more people playing raids than they have thought.
So, I still can’t see any fail implementation.

@Rednik:

Well, that’s your only critical point?
I see enough groups in the LFG every day so maybe it’s a problem in your guild but there is no lack of playerbase at all. And it certainly hasn’t anything to do with elitism.

I only criticize the amount of content that is realeased in a certain time span. Anet is very slow, has always been and will always be slow with it. But that’s not a raid-only problem, it is game wide.

eyestrain.3056:

@vince different people have different experiences, assuming i’m having mine because i’m a moron and doing it wrong is condescending and pretentious. Hace nice day.

Nobody said that you are a moron. But it is very astounding that so many players are pugging without any of your mentioned problems. The first thing to do is always look on yourself and what you can do to improve your situation and not blaming a system or a huge playerbase that doesn’t share your opinion. Your attitude reminds me of the leading MOBA in the gaming scene I was playing some years ago. People were always blaming their other 4 random mates and that they were responsible for stucking in lower tiers. It was shown that the problem lay by themselves, their build, their masteries and their unwillingness to train several basic things that were needed to be successful in the game.
Tbh it’s not a gaming problem, I am facing the same issues as teacher in school and with parents of my pupils.

And yeah, I already told you to join a training guild. If you still refuse to do it we cannot help you. Sneaking into groups to get the kill as a snack is very selfish and impolite even though I can understand this mentality. It’s just plain wrong.

Yeah, because we have a handful players complaining about things without using their brains a.k.a. aren’t understanding to use the lfg the right way, aren’t willing to practice and aren’t realizing that raids are a different content than over 95% of the rest of the game.

Sorry, but you are wrong. The implementation of raids is fine without any percent of a doubt and I don’t see your so called “proves” for a second!

Please show us a real prove for a fail. A real one that cannot be eliminated by effort and work (= practice/training).

eyestrain.3056:

mate if you cant carry one baddie in a dungeon I question this confidence you have in your raiding ability. In raids two baddies can be uncarryable but dungeons after HoT are pretty soloable.
Anyway your first point “you either have enough experience because you’ve got the insights or you only know how to wipe” is a pretty good example of the trap people who are trying to get into raiding get stuck in by experienced and pretentious players.

Mate, sometimes I carry up to 4 new or uninformed players through a dungeon. This is no problem after the release of HoT with this gigantic powercreep. You can’t fail – almost. And after a short explanation here and there everything is working fine. I was referring to the pre-HoT time when you could spend half an hour till infinity at the endboss of P2 in AC because people were not willing to listen properly or weren’t able to understand english. Yeah, you don’t need to be good in foreign languages but then you also cannot expect to get a free ride.
And I stil don’t understand why people like you are talking about elitist or toxic people if others are joining LFGs with “experienced only”, “metazerk” and so on. Knowing that this is the wrong group for them and getting a boot. You could even chat with those guys, they understood the text…
This behaviour is much more ignorant toxic and an effrontery! They never made up their own groups with “All welcome” etc. And do you know why? They know exactly that they end up with players like themselves being a total pain in the kitten run. That’s a big true thing about the “metazerk” whining. Because you were always able to open your own group with your own preferences and whatsoever gear in it.

eyestrain.3056:

A lot of pugging has to do with luck

Nope! Only if you aren’t an intelligent person. You just have to select your pug properly. There are so many key words showing wether it’s a decent group or a conglomerate of clowns. I have my safe kills in pugs on Monday and Tuesday with no exception. But I also don’t leave if the group is struggling a bit. In that way I am friendly, polite and persistent with 0 toxic attitude. But if the group I joined made wrong statements in the LFG and there are people in it that fail horribly it is my right to leave them because I don’t want to spend more hours practicing on an encounter I already mastered long time ago. Everybody needs the training, no doubt and I admit that to everyone but not if I am in the mood to get my safe kill.

eyestrain.3056:

Throwing someone out based on lack of LI is purely a way of seeing pedigree rather than the person and that’s elitism if I’ve ever seen it.

Dude, I know you can ninja chat code insights but that’s another thing. But tell me, why it is elitism if I look for players that have seriously done the wings repeatedly? Once again: I don’t want to train if I get my first kill of the week People with less LI have definitely less experience. They haven’t killed the bosses several times so the wipe potential is huge. You really have to tell me why I should play with those people if I want to have my safe kill.

eyestrain.3056:

How’s a person supposed to accumulate that insight in the first place if they can’t get in any group but other inexperienced or less than perfectly geared pugs?

I have the perfect answer for you:
JOIN A GUILD THAT IS TRYING RAIDS!

and no you don’t have any arguments against that. If you don’t have time to get along with people or you have an annoying work schedule then raids aren’t meant for you. Raids themselves cost time and effort and I would rather bet that weekly organized guild runs are better than relying on pugs.
To prevent you from saying another wrong thing: Yes, there are enough guilds out there trying raids and you can join them.
So the possibility for new players is huge, at the moment I can show you over 10 training guilds demanding for people only in the german forum – with zero requirements.
And another yes, if you want your kill, you have to practice. Maybe you have to for 20 hours playtime and still don’t kill one of the bosses. Then it’s either time to change your group roster, move on and most probably you should get better.

eyestrain.3056:

Where is this magic “getting good (getting LI)” coming from if no one gives new players a chance?

Train with a guild
Do you really expect experienced players to get you a walkthrough for free because they invested hours at the raid start and you didn’t so you now have the right to join them and get a kill after some minutes? Are you seriously thinking this is the way it should be?

eyestrain.3056:

I’ve been in a no wipe VG pug- wasnt even on comms. I had 2 LI at that time. I’ve got 6 now and i’ve been in a few dozen raids, most with poor results. Am I saying i’m perfect? Absolutely not. But lack of proof of kill doesn’t mean a player is a pile of trash incapable of being useful to your team or a scared trembling baby deer that needs to be shooed back out to happy sunshine friendship fields.

Indeed, lack of proof kill isn’t a sign for being a pile of trash but if you can’t afford LIs via VG I have to tell you that you aren’t playing very good and that you are the reason for not having them. I see enough groups doing VG without or just little LI requirements on VG and they succeed. This week two people I met joined raids for the first time and they got their VG kill straight. They didn’t get a carry, they watched several video guides, took easy roles (not tank, no green circle group) and did their job just like everyone else.

eyestrain.3056:

No you don’t have to play with people you don’t want to but if the entire community has this attitude it’s a sorry future for raids with only the lucky few well connected newbies advancing past this quagmire of sparse pugs and “dont bother coming without 40 LI” experienced groups.

That’s bs because I already told you to join a guild. If you refuse to do so as a player new to raids at least join training runs. There are enough of them in the LFG. If you are just greedy to get kills and be successful you have to work for it in the first place. Otherwise it won’t work.
I repeat myself again:
The LI requirement protects players from having people that aren’t experienced with safe kills. That is the only thing why requirements are made: People want to have a fast success. Usually, you can’t have that with newer players.

Finally: the word “newbie” is an insult. Just to let you know before you are using it in a chat or elsewhere.

eyestrain.3056:

I’m between a 2-3. I also don’t want to waste three hours, especially when failing a raid leaves you with literally nothing (and success is pretty scanty in vg/gors).

So, you are experienced that means automatically you will have enough LI to link if there is a LI requirement. If not, you aren’t experienced in killing the boss, you are experienced in fighting and failing over and over again. In that case I wouldn’t take you with me either nowadays because VG is a very easy often killed the first attempt ( = no wipe).

eyestrain.3056:

What i’m seeing are straight up 1s with a density that I never saw even back in dungeon elitist days.

Exactly in this week I’ve met more gentle people in raids than before. Subjective impressions, my dear! Also, I haven’t heard any insults since I have started raiding with pugs. So I met no toxic environment at all.
Gear checks and build checks are legit and smart because there are still too many players out there with no clue. It’s very interesting and funny to watch some groups at Gorseval with almost 0 problems (3-5 wipes and then getting the kill) and others always end up in a massacre over an hour. I met both groups, played the same routine as tempest. Sometimes it is just unbelievable what people are doing in this game, not alone in raids.

There are also enough LFGs without LI requirement but we both know the problem when joining these. You can’t tell if they will succeed so I rather take the group with a requirement than an unknown clown festival.
You can also ninja chat code but take care groups will find out that you are the bad apple and kick you for a reason, insult inclusive. So you better be experienced for real!

eyestrain.3056:

The other thing is that the communities doing dungeon runs back then also found those hardcore dungeon runners a bit of a joke since most of them were copying speedrunners reaching for record times without actually understanding the point, and consequently making those runs 10x longer with gear checks and kicking imperfects for 30min before actually running pretty easy content.

It was the other way round. People with bullkitten gear joined exp groups to get a carry through. They pulled mobs here and there, didn’t stay with the team and much more. Even in AC pugging could end in a fiasco although it is one of the easiest dungeons. Just avoid to join these or be experienced. That’s all. As a human being I (and many others) don’t want to play with all of the playerbase. It’s my right to exclude and uninvite people that don’t fit to my playstyle. All that has nothing to do with elitism. It is rather protecting me from having a harder time than I should have because I can do things better than others and protecting non-experienced players from being totally overextended and feeling not comfortable in playing the game.

11. Never rely on pugs.

12. Your wishes will never come true

13. Don’t pug if you can’t handle the crowd.

/end

That’s your information:

Gaile Gray.6029:

We want to give you a heads up about our next planned raids release: In the first event of the raid wing, some members of your squad (most likely half, or 5 out of 10) will need to have the Ley Line Gliding mastery trained in order for the team to succeed. For the final encounter, all members will need to have Ley Line Gliding.

So as you’re getting your masteries and deciding which line to pursue, give a special look at the Gliding Mastery and try to max that out, so you can be one of the cool kids on the team.

Stayed tuned in the coming weeks for more info on the planned release date.

katz.8376:

>sigh<
1. i see lots of, honestly, very nasty elitist posts on the forums regarding being prepared for raids.

I’ve seen more helpful threads and posts in this forum than ironic, sarcastic or elitist ones. The problem is that you keep the negative ones in mind while you are forgetting or not even reading the others.
And tbh I don’t believe in that stupid questions doesn’t exist. Yes, they do and some of them you will find here in this forum. I wish so badly that some players would think about their words properly before posting but this is not the world I’d like to have.

katz.8376:

let me run with what i got.

I think that’s the key point of the whole thing. Raids were not meant for this. You can do that in 99% of the game but not here. And this is good because GW2 would have lost yet another huge group of players. I don’t refer to a specific raid scene here, I refer to players that are raiding AND playing the other stuff in GW2. My interest in this game would have been lost or decreased very hard without raids. They are a part of keeping me here and I know a lot of others stepping on this path.

4. now i’m getting really fed up with raids in general. and now people on the forums basically are saying “if you aren’t raiding, you suck.” paraphrased of course, but that’s what it boils down to.

I have the opinion that you are exaggerating. Some ppl here are ironic, sarcastic and few of them not very enjoyable but has anybody really told to you that you suck? I guess not. The discussion in terms of ley-line gliding is just not in your favour but please look out for the arguments and that this gliding is ridiculous easy to achieve.

katz.8376:

one of the most engaging and interesting fights that i can think of off-hand is actually Triple Trouble. not only does each head have it’s own mechanic, you have a whole series of events leading in to it, AND you have to kill all 3 heads within a short time frame, so you have to co-ordinate a large number of people to get it done. and you do have certain roles that need to be filled.. condi for husks, reflects, etc. this, to me, is more what a raid should be. epic on a grand scale. dodging teleport attacks and running to green circles over and over and over while beating down one guy is kinda meh, especially when there’s no intro… you just walk in and start whalin on the guy. admittedly i haven’t seen anything beyond VG yet. maybe other wings are more interesting, but the intro unfortunately doesn’t make me excited to see more.

Well, you will be a little bit harsh to raids if you just focus on VG. The other bosses have different mechanics. I suggest watching guides of the other 5 existing encounters and you will see that Triple Trouble, which is tbh a braindead event, is a lot less complex than the raid bosses.

katz.8376:

to your second point… it does depend heavily on what is being said and how it’s being said. some people cannot take any advice whatsoever, but not everyone. i am much more willing to listen if it is not presented in the “this is why and how you suck” package.

You joined the wrong groups then. The players with LFGs like “Clear wing 1”, “Exp” and some others are not the ones you want to join because these players expect to clear the wing in a certain time span a.k.a. very fast & with no problems. Raids are now more or less 7 months old and you have to distiguish between those who had enough of struggles during that time and many others that are still practicing or only having success the one or the other day. You would belong to the last group and you cannot demand that the first sort will get along with you.

katz.8376:

i have no idea what was said to the necro in your example, so what i say after this is pure hypothetical, but using a minionmancer as an example. they work great in PvE. so guy takes his minionmancer into a raid. the people raiding with him have 2 options at this point… you can say “you shouldn’t run minions in here. thus-and-such condi skills are better.” or you can say “hey man… minionmancers are awesome in open world, but the minions are grabbing agro and make the boss difficult to control. thus-and-such skill might be a better idea. could you swap please?” it’s hard to read tone in the written word, so while the former may have been delivered with the best of intentions, it is invariably read as “you suck for running minons. n00b.” there are still people that would leave even if told the 2nd option… but the 2nd is much more polite, less likely to be misunderstood. in my case i was told/asked “don’t you want to be the best you can be?” and it came off as very haughty. i’ve spent hundreds if not thousands of gold gearing my main, and spent the last 3 years tweaking my build. no, i don’t want to be told i suck because i don’t match someone’s spreadsheet of what’s the latest meta builds100%.

Trust me I told so many players that certain builds, weapons, gear etc. are superior for raids than others in a very gentle and polite manner. But did they change? Not at all, only a small amount of them did. I have a guild mate playing staff necro. We are good friends in rl, watching soccer, drinking beer together and so on. I am ok with him playing his open world stuff and fractals on staff/gs also PvP that I am not playing. But as a friend he is still refusing to change for raids and he always struggles on the red condition guardian. Because he is a friend, we are taking him with us and we can manage to kill VG, but not very accurate. If I had pugged with him we would have had almost 0 certainty to kill the first raid boss because there would have been more than one player like him which makes it very hard to pass due to raids are implemented to run the more focused builds. People low-manning raid bosses is a sign that there are gaps for untrained players or imperfect builds. But the rest of the group has to play on the limit what is clearly impossible in random pugs, therefore you will fail.

If you have 2-3 classes you can play and you know all utility skills from just klick through players with these classes around you. Not only in raids, even in SW or elsewhere and you see a lot of players having 0 clue with those that make absolutely no sense to run with. Yeah, some builds could use them but a lot of them cannot and if such things are used in raids they will lead to a way harder time or to sum it up: a totally fail. And that’s what has to be realized. Same thing why serious people not playing full zerk all the way in WvW or PvP.

katz.8376:

it’s not really that hard

Yes, it isn’t. Assuming all running the best gear and play their A game. This is why ppl don’t want to have bad-geared players with almost 0 skill in their group.

tl;dr:
It’s just that “let me run with what i got” doesn’t fit together with “it’s not really that hard” in raids.

katz.8376:

biggest reason i don’t like raids is the kitten elitists i gotta put up with to run them. sucks the fun out of the game when someone else is fussing at you how you HAVE to build and gear, down to the n-th detail, or else you’re gonna get thrown out of the group.

but it’s like you just can’t wrap your head around the fact that someone might not like being treated like that…. o well.

Fail is on your side. Just don’t join LFGs with idiotic requirements or aggressive statements like "one fail = kick* and you will meet a lot of people that aren’t elitists or trying to shut you down. I pug regularly and all I do is bring the stuff that is wanted by the groups I join. Most of the people are very polite and in a good temper. The bad ones in these groups are leaving after 2-3 wipes.
It’s obvious that you have to bring the best gear/build and so on because the raids are implemented for that. You cannot go in and 10-man-facetank it with a useless open world fun build. Raids are special content for players that want to have a little piece of challenge in this game. And to be fair, raids aren’t very hard.

Yes, I did. ^^

I am running fractals only with 1 char. Grinded Lvl 10, 40 and others and all I met was Anet’s lousy RNG but no concrete DR. And I can bring more than 10 people that would agree to my point as well.

I did, couldn’t reproduce your results, sorry.

I don’t play casually and cannot confirm DR in fractals, not a single %.

Subjective impressions are subjective. Nuff said.

Yeah, obviously! Because we don’t have any further informations about that and we will hear from Anet when it’s time.

Thaddeus.4891:

Really people still asking this kind of question? It was obviously clear when HoT was introduced that the legendary armor won’t come until the Wing 3 will be in-game.

What so? Look into that thread and you get an answer.

6th thread in this forum:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Notes-on-legendary-armor/

Watch out before you post! Ty.

The system is fine. Don’t blame it while you being the problem. If people don’t want to have your power scrapper you have to deal with it. According to qTs benchmark tests there is a reason why people don’t rely on your build. Pugs want to be successful so they try to get the best group they can. They cannot know how good or bad you are although you pretend to be the grandmaster himself which is at least doubtful or uncertain.
I pug regularly and I have never been kicked from a raid group so far because I bring in what’s needed, don’t act like a smart-kitten and try to give hints for improval if anything isn’t going to work like it should be.
People that are getting kicked often or significantly more often than the average should look for their own deficiencies first before criticising systems that are fine for the usual playerbase.

tl;dr
Don’t ask yourself what people can do for you, ask yourself what you can do for them!

And you still haven’t reacted to the key point: If your friends are constantly raiding, you have 0.0 issues with gaining xp. Absolutely nada, niente, nichts, none! You are getting ENOUGH xp through raiding. You still haven’t understood that?

Since you all are raiding together, form your raid squad, go to the HoT maps and you will acquire enough points to fulfill a complete mastery in less than one hour. While I agree to everyone that it would take longer as a single person, in a group of 3-xx all non-adventury points are very fast to achieve, especially when bringing a mesmer. Furthermore 3 adventures are very easy for reaching gold status. You have to play them 1-2 times.

jheryn.8390:

Thank you! Thank you for making my point. You don’t know the numbers yet you still make unfounded assumptions about them.

Dude, I am raiding constantly and on the contrary to you I cleared both wings and pugged a lot. Since I always check players via single click or just have a look on their chars it is more than noticeable that the huge majority of players has 166 points or at least a number far above 100. Not even 1 out of 50 players I am facing has less points. So yeah, I want to know these numbers because they are infinitesimal.

All I see is complaining and not wanting to take action with little effort needed. And that’s why people with knowledge won’t take your posts seriously.

jheryn.8390:

Again, you act as if you have the most incredible vast knowledge about all players that play the game. Get over yourself. You don’t know how “rare” or “common” any type of player is. They don’t have the points, because they have never bothered with the masteries. And again, who said you get to decide who deserves anything in this game? Was there a vote to elect you that I missed?

Why so aggressive about things that are so easily done and no need to argue about. The time you are investing here should be spend to help your friends. ^^

jheryn.8390:

Again, they have never cared about HoT masteries or invested in them, because they don’t care about HoT content. What is it you don’t get about that?

They needed gliding, they needed mushrooms. Were they complaining about every single thing? They have to be frustrated players, I guess.

jheryn.8390:

Doubt all you want, they are out there whether you have blessed their presence or not.

Yeah, I still want to know the actual number of those players. Compared to the huge amount of raid runs I’ve made. The number is small and because it is so easy to get the required things done the number is negligible.

jheryn.8390:

The people I am talking about were big PvP players in GW1 and moved to PvP and WvW in GW2. They didn’t play PvE in the first game and haven’t in the second. Some of them did buy HoT just for raids. Others heard that the content was more difficult and decided to give PvE another go. All of them quit PvE after a matter of days because it was just more boring PvE to them.

Ye ye, blah blah yourself. Very mature, kiddo! I told you: Pick them up, 30 minutes mastery point run together and you are ready to go in several weeks for the third wing. The xp is no issue because you guys are constantly raiding and you gain enough.

jheryn.8390:

Apparently, so is your reading comprehension and ability to see/have empathy for something beyond your own views.

I read your statement that you are not the said player but that was after my post, so you better read properly and don’t mix timed posts!

jheryn.8390:

Yes, really. Missing the point much? The ones I know don’t WANT to PvE in order to raid no matter what “advance notice” they are given. Is that a hard concept? Several of my friends in raiding groups have not even bothered to step foot in HoT other than to raid. They don’t care one wit about PvE content other than raids.

Well, then your friends are a rare species in GW2 if that would be true. But the fact stands: You and your friends are gaining tremendously much xp from raiding only so that is not your problem. You also gain many mastery points and I think you will agree that if your friends are that focused on raids, they already have (almost) all points from both wing because they are easy to achieve. Otherwise they won’t deserve to be called “raiders” in this game.

jheryn.8390:

And all those that do raid and PvE like myself, did not max out gliding first. I maxed Itzel first. It depends on your focus.

That’s why I mentioned Nuhoch and Exalted (50 useless points of 117 existing). Maxing Itzel first is legit. Focusing on Nuhoch and Exalted would have been bs for an intelligent player that has sympathy for content like raids. You can’t tell me it wasn’t possible to get the points along the way. That would be lie and you know it!

jheryn.8390:

But, since all “serious” raiders you have encountered so far are maxed at 166 or close, then I and every other person who doesn’t like this is wrong. Because, well, you set the standard for the rest of us playing GW2 right? If you don’t see it, then how can it be?

I don’t set the standards but I doubt many players were buying HoT only because of raid implementation. There are other games with a bigger focus on such stuff. GW2 is a rookie on that field. Also, the big majority has played the core game for many years before. They have done dungeon farming, fractaling and some other stuff in the game. When HoT was released it wasn’t a big deal for them to gain mastery points and many xp before the first wing came out. You had how many weeks? 3? 6? Enough to get as much as possible and tbh I saw several sc players playing on the new maps according to my friend list. Not just only because they needed the masteries, no it was interesting to have a look at them and to beat the meta events as one of the first people in HoT. I really really don’t believe that there were so many players who haven’t played this game before, just heard Arenanet is releasing a raid and bought this game without doing research about the history with all the desasters and the actual target audience!

And now you even get an announcement several weeks before! So pick up your raid buddies and go together for that little hurdle. You are a well-rehearsed team, no problem to get the required points in minutes.

Edit:
Yourself are over 3 years playing this game. You have played this game all time without having a raid and you knew about this game, the designers, the philosophy and the implementation and you were still playing. So stop the anti-argumentative discussion, it’s ridiculous.

jheryn.8390:

Now they are forced to PvE in order to play content they wish to play.

This is making them play a genre of GW2 they don’t wish to play but are now forced to do so.

For them it isn’t putting in time and effort to do something for them it is more like “You have to play this different/unrelated game before you can play the game you actually want to play.”

Really? You got the announcement some weeks before so you can gain the XP via raiding only if you already haven’t! Raid experience points are enough for that!
On the contrary, while almost all serious raiders/sc’lers I’ve seen in raids so far are owning all or almost 166 points, I doubt that they aren’t or weren’t willing to play any other content than raids. ^^ They also had a look on the new maps and played them when the addon had been released.
Nevertheless, even though a person that is focused on raids followed a minimum to gain the points, he or she would have maxed gliding before Exalted or Nuhoch Lore. I don’t see any little kind of grind here.