Guild Wars 2

VOLKON.1290:

~snip~
Who knows… maybe a certain Living Story nemesis does something that affects the world as a whole in such a way that the nights are indeed darker than they are now and her minions of the dark rise forth as the light fades…

Holy smokes! Just had to jump in here really quick (was about to post a more methodical response to some of the amazing ideas that are piling up in this thread).

This is an incredibly interesting idea for when/if any of these ideas get implemented into the game. It would explain and give context to why the sudden dramatic change with the weather and/or night. Opens up so many interesting possible minor story arcs for the lore team & writers.

What shadowy force is rallying these night dwelling creatures and seems to wield the power to make night itself as dark as their intentions?

What force could destabilize the very weather for all of Tyria, and why?

If I was an ArenaNet writer I would be salivating over this idea.

Chrispy.5641:

It’d be neat if expanding the Weather Effects in the game also had an effect on Conditions and other effects in open world PvE. These could be universal effects that affect you and enemies. For Example,

• There’s a Blizzard in Frostgorge Sound? Chill Effects last 5% Longer.
• There’s a Rainstorm in the Jungle? Healing Effects are 5% Stronger.
• Running Through a Poisonous Cloud in Orr? Healing is 5% less effective when inflicted with Poison.
• Running Through a Heat Wave in the Crystal Desert? Burning is 5% Stronger.
• There’s a Chaos Storm in the Blazeridge Steppes? Critical Hits have a 5% Chance to Inflict Confusion.
• Swim really Deep in the water in the Ocean? Movement is 5% slower because of the water pressure.
• Maybe these effects could have differing Intensities, and make those effects even stronger in harder areas of the game. The intensity of the storm would also show graphically on screen (more rain effect, blinding snow, etc.)

I’m not sure how that would affect balance, but it would help with the Immersion a little.

Random and varying storms would roll through different zones creating almost mini-events. Love it. I think ArenaNet is planning on doing something like this with the new Edge of the Mists update, where there are specific debuffs asociated with weather and location. Again, love it.

It brings to mind one of the few things that were exciting to me about another game (I’m still unclear if it’s ok to compare specific games by name to GW2 so I’ll keep it generic. Hint: it begins with an ‘R’.) Anyway without warning you would notice the sky growing dark and ominous, the ambient music changes to something more dramatic, alarm horns and drums are heard in the distance. You look on your map and huge sections are covered in dark roiling vortexes and clouds. It is now dark, and everyone around you starts running…

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

~snip~
There was a game called EverQuest which had a day/night cycle. During which in certain areas you were . . . in professional terms “completely boned” if you didn’t have some form of night vision in forest areas. Many human newbie characters died to secure this as one of the fundamental pieces of every character’s “Survival Kit” of abilities. “Must get night vision” was on there, along with “some method of water breathing”. ~snip~

Would love this in GW2. I want to be at least a little nervous about venturing alone at night around Tyria, or have the uncertainty and anticipation that the inevitable gloom would bring.

And night vision abilities or goggles!? Yes and yes! I’m surprised it never crossed my mind but that would be amazing. Really in line with the slightly ‘steam-punk’ aesthetic of GW2 too. Maybe as a type of helm upgrade or as an ‘always on’ elite ability that you could swap to out of combat.

So many exciting ideas come out of this…

VOLKON.1290:

Wasbunny.6531:

I feel like I should post this link to a similar thread made awhile ago, a lot of really interesting ideas and opinions about having a more dynamic and dramatic night.

No Dark Enviornments in GW2

Would love to see a CDI on this overall concept.

Well, treat this like a CDI and we’ll see if anyone notices!

You mean by things that go BUMP in the night? haha

I feel like I should post this link to a similar thread made awhile ago, a lot of really interesting ideas and opinions about having a more dynamic and dramatic night.

No Dark Enviornments in GW2

Would love to see a CDI on this overall concept.

Nemesis is known for making extremely well thought out necromancer guides. He applies the scientific method to his theory-crafting by hypothesizing, testing, and showing proof of concept. He clearly states the intention of each build at the beginning of each video, his motto being ‘There is no best build, only best at.’ and goes on at length (and I mean at length) to support his conclusions. He’s not afraid to ‘think outside the box’ or violate any longstanding meta for fear of ruffling any feathers. His approach is usually creative and scientific and he does it for the game and the community.

That being said, while I’ve found little to disagree with related to his past necromancer videos I think he made some rare and major miscalculations regarding his ‘Smite’ guardian build. The stated purpose of that build being basically the highest overall DPS possible by any means necessary. I simply don’t think this is the case with this build.

I think the main problem with his theory of a semi-ranged non boon sharing DPS guardian being the highest DPS possible stems from his experience as a necro. Boon sharing is non-existent for necros so is never taken into consideration when calculating their overall damage potential. For guardians almost the opposite is true.

The main errors that were made when calculating the build’s damage were ignoring the following principles when calculating DPS contribution.

• Any damage enhancing boons like Might that are supplied to the party must be multiplied by the number of party members and then added to the total DPS of the player supplying them. Example: 5 stacks of Might supplied to 5 players is equal to 25 stacks of Might on a single player.

• Percentage damage increase conditions like Vulnerability that are put on the target must be multiplied by the number of party members attacking the target and then added to the total DPS of the player that supplied it. Example: 5 stacks of vulnerability applied to a target being attacked by 5 people is equal to 25% overall damage increase, or a target with 25 stacks of Vulnerability being attacked by a single player.

• For boons to be shared you need to be near the group, usually not at range.

• To stay at range you either must be in a group or have consistent ‘gap-distancing’ abilities like knockbacks or leapbacks.

I’m finding that when these overlooked calculations are added into the equation the ‘Smite’ build is not what Nemesis stated it to be as the guardian build with the highest DPS and DPS uptime. With just a couple small changes in traits and weapon choices the damage and support / survivability go dramatically up. Mathematically with guardians, more than with any other profession, Support = DPS.

It would also be interesting if existing creatures that favor the dark (such as the Nightmare Court & the Dredge) have an increased frequency of appearing and triggering more dynamic events at night.

A lot of the Nightmare Court’s dynamic events involve taking poor hapless Sylvari prisoners which you need to free, but you never see this actually happening. What if during the day the Sylvari are going about their normal business with mainly ‘helper’, ‘gather’, or ‘escort’ type quests but as soon as night falls the Nightmare Court come out of the shadows to enslave and torture the Sylvari locals. These would be dynamic events that would only be triggered at night and could be won or lost, allowing you to keep the Nightmare Court at bay or if neglected the Sylvari are overrun and enslaved, leading to the ‘liberation’ type dynamic events.

And the Dredge…oh the dreaded Dredge. They would mainly be seen crawling out of their holes only at night, running for the shelter of their underground tunnels as the sun rises. Dynamic events on the surface world would be greatly increased in frequency and number during the night. This making one think twice about wandering alone at night in places like Lorner’s Pass or Dredgehaunt Cliffs.

So many possibilities with day/night cycle linked dynamic events, not to mention…vampires!

xXxOrcaxXx.9328:

Related to VOLKON’s idea of weather and daytimes affecting the gameplay:

• Changes to darkness are universal.
• Changes to darkness scale with the phase of the moon. Full moon same as now, new moon considerably darker (but not excessively so).
• Darker nights can then be used to allow for new mobs to spawn with unique drops and for unique night time events to kick off.
• Darker nights (universally) in WvW could alter strategies, encouraging activities under cover of darkness. This could be enhanced by reducing the range you can see nameplates in the dark.

These are exactly the kind of ideas that get me excited thinking of all the possibilities a true dynamic and impactful day/night cycle would create. Completely in line with ArenaNet’s living changing world philosophy too. Love it…can’t wait for sundown.

xXxOrcaxXx.9328:

Wasbunny.6531:

It should be kept in mind that environmental game lighting consists of numerous light ‘objects’ as well as larger ambient light areas, all with individual settings of hue/saturation/brightness/radius etc. and scripted behavior. A second optional lighting setup would require a duplicate of all environmental lights to exist in game. While a good idea it might not be feasible from a technical standpoint.

I’d be more than happy if they just simply made the nights globally darker and more dramatic for everyone.

There are 2 huge enviromental lights.
The first one is a white light which lights up the day enviroment.
The second one is a blue light which lights up the enviroment at night times.
Just simply give us the control over the brightness of this blue light and it’s done.

This isn’t exactly true. I’ve done quite a bit of 3d modeling and environmental design for games (studying to get into the industry myself) and lighting for a game is not as simple as it may seem. Granted lighting games like Skyrim is far more complex than an MMORPG but there are still multiple light and environmental effects with many settings, behaviors, and interplay.

Here’s one of my favorite GW2 developer videos illustrating this that might be helpful.
About 20 minutes into the video they start playing with lighting and environmental effects in real-time. I love that part.

Guild Wars 2 Developer Guide: PvP map creation

I didn’t want to discourage discussion about making lighting settings optional, just wanted to point out there is a technical side of this to consider.

Something that apparently another mmo soon to be released has talked about is enemies being able to use the players own combo fields for themselves, making them a double edged sword. I find this idea really interesting, especially when considering combining that with the ideas above. Although I still can’t imagine how this would play out in a PvP enviornment and am a little skeptical that the unnamed future mmo will be able to pull this off. Maybe it would apply only to NPCs.

I think one main problem right now with combo fields and having them used strategically in a group is the constant overriding of the latest over the previous. I like the idea of making some kind of synergy with them.

It should be kept in mind that environmental game lighting consists of numerous light ‘objects’ as well as larger ambient light areas, all with individual settings of hue/saturation/brightness/radius etc. and scripted behavior. A second optional lighting setup would require a duplicate of all environmental lights to exist in game. While a good idea it might not be feasible from a technical standpoint.

I’d be more than happy if they just simply made the nights globally darker and more dramatic for everyone.

We’re in the same boat. I’ve been completely turned off dungeons due to ‘skip-n-stack’ being the rule rather than the exception. A-Net is aware of this problem though as they mentioned it as one of the mechanic choices for the Tower of Nightmares (the toxic zerg killing exploding pod things that kept everyone on the move). Molten Alliance boss fight also comes to mind.

I think we’ll see more improvements to this problem down the road with more interesting encounter mechanics punishing those that just stack in the fire.

On second thought I suppose if it were not optional WvW players could just crank their brightness up to gain an unfair advantage.

So much for that bright idea.

Obtena.7952:

Despite all the bickering, this is the first build in a guide I have seen that completely disregards the role that Guardians play in the meta; having some level of team support, mostly with boons/defense. I just don’t get the underlying concept of the build, which essentially ignores the fact that anywhere a considered build is needed, it’s usually done in a team.

I’d go even farther by saying that even if Nemesis is simply trying to make the highest DPS guardian build possible regardless of their ‘typical’ role, he seems to overlook the fact that one of the biggest DPS sources for the guardian is through the collective sharing of boons and target de-buffs, not to mention the DPS gained by keeping your teammates alive. Support=DPS much more for guardians than necros, where it’s almost mutually exclusive.

In just the suggestion I gave in my first post the collective DPS goes up 45% by just sacrificing a shorter signet cd and using a focus. And that doesn’t factor in the 6 stacks of AoE Might (the equivalent of 30 stacks when alone) that would also be adding to the collective DPS. So even if damage is the only consideration of this build I’m seeing some uncharacteristic miscalculations.

I think Nemesis unfortunately approached the guardian like it was a necromancer. When you’ve played a necromancer long enough you start to forget what boons even look like, much less the value of sharing them. Every stack of might or retaliation a guardian shares with a group is equal to five times that on an individual, and so needs to be multiplied x5 and then added when calculating DPS.

I believe he’s planning on releasing a follow-up video addressing some of the specific choices he made with the build & comparing weapon damage so we might see it change anyway.

Can’t add much more than to just agree. I have 6 80’s and 2 over 40’s (one each profession of course) so I have no use for them at all. And it seems counter-intuitive that you’re given multiple identical mini’s when you are assumed to have multiple characters already, making all but the first redundant.

I mean, it’s better than nothing and it’s a nice gesture but it does feel like my grandmother just gave me six of the same Cosby sweaters for my birthday, in the wrong size.

I do think it would add more interesting gameplay if it wasn’t an optional tickbox, so ‘night-raids’ could be an actual thing in WvW and nighttime exploring would be much more imersive in PvE.

I’ve also had this idea rattling around for sometime about making the condition ‘Blind’ actually do just that; temporarily darken or even blacken the screen (except UI) for the duration of the condition. Sort of like what they did with Liadri and the Toxic Alliance ‘nightmares’. But that’s a bit off-topic and maybe I’ll make a thread about it myself someday.

There is a thread about this:

No Dark Enviornments in GW2

I totally agree, glad this idea is coming back into the light.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

The highest theoretical DPS is 20/30/20/0/0 with sword/gs or 20/25/0/0/25 with Greatsword, depending on how you calculate boon uptime.

Thanks Guanglai!
Now I’m off to the HotM (although I should be leveling my guardian) and beat on some poor unfortunate golems.

Guardians are so supportive.

Fair enough. I actually agree with most of what both of you are saying (‘blight on the GW2 community’ seems a bit harsh, hehe).

As I said in my first post I’m new to guardian so I was just curious what the most selfish, non-supportive, highest DPS glass cannon build would look like since that seems like what Nemesis was going for (in contrast to Obal’s). Really more as a novelty of theory crafting (like some kind of weird ranged guardian/thief mutant) then something I’d actually play or think is viable in most situations.

I like playing around with weird and wrong builds like necro-healers or thief-tanks so the non-supportive glass cannon guardian seemed interesting, if only as a novelty.

Ok, thanks foofad & laharl.

Since both Obal and Nemesis set out to make an ‘ultimate’ pure non-supportive DPS guardian build and arrived at two different solutions I was hoping this thread would put them equally to the test and compare at least these two builds point by point to see how either or both could be improved. It does look like Obal’s builds have been exhaustively theory-crafted and tested so maybe they are indeed the last word in guardian builds.

I guess since Nemesis has a reputation for being extremely meticulous when crunching the numbers and testing variations of a build, as well as showing proof of concept through his videos, I was hoping to see the guardian community point out specific ways in which they felt his conclusions were either accurate or mistaken.

CptAurellian.9537:

There is a whole sticky on that topic …

Wait…what now? There’s already a sticky discussing Nemesis’s Smite build? Then what’s…??…now I’m confused. I guess I somehow misread the title of this thread…my bad.

Even though I guess it’s off-topic could someone please link the thread discussing Nemesis’s smite build so I can post there?

I’m by no means new to the game but I’m very new to guardian, so any specific analysis about how to improve upon Nemesis’s build would be very helpful and appreciated. Even with my limited experience with guardians I’m seeing some ways I think would improve the build but I could be way off.

It seems the intention with the build is to maximize pure DPS without regard to support, so I’d be very interested in specific ways in which to accomplish this.

One problem I see with the theory of the build is overlooking the fact that supplying an entire party with Might and Vulnerability on the target constitutes a far greater overall DPS boost than some of the traits or skills Nemesis chose. One stack of Vulnerability on a target being hit by 5 players increases overall damage by 5%. The same can be said of Might that is shared. If we are trying to push the overall DPS to the max this needs to be considered.

Here is one specific way in which I think would improve the damage output while still maintaining a ranged option, which I posted on Nemesis’s video.

Swap Torch for Focus & Take Blind Exposure Trait
Specifically I’m finding a really interesting synergy with the traits in Radiance, Justice is Blind & Blind Exposure and how this works in practice with the focus skill Ray of Judgement. With one skill (Ray of Judgement) the target receives 6 stacks of vulnerability & blind (4 bounces). If Virtue of Justice is also popped another 3 stacks are added. So that’s a 9% damage increase that is shared by the entire party, so needs to be multiplied by the number of attackers (9%x5=45% overall DPS boost). That’s just by switching to focus and changing out that first Adept trait, and using one skill.

Take Inspired Virtue Trait
Another point about the focus that I think was overlooked is that Shield of Wrath is a blast finisher. If the minor trait Inspired Virtue (Virtues) is taken and one of the signets is switched out to a fire field like Purging Flames (which would compensate for the loss of burning up-time) and blasted followed by Virtue of Justice with only a couple of clicks and combined with the above you’ve:

Applied 9 stacks of vulnerability to the target (3 stacks AoE).
Applied Blind to the target as well as AoE blind around you.
Party members stack burning.
Regeneration is given to at least one party member.
You clear 3 conditions for allies and apply more burning to targets AoE.
Give 6 stacks of AoE Might to party members.
You block the next 3 attacks and then do AoE damage when Shield of Wrath ends.

Since you’re taking Renewed Justice this would be refreshed every time an enemy goes down.

And the focus being a ranged weapon makes a lot more sense to me than the torch which is only beneficial if you’re in melee range, and the last skill in the focus rotation would be Shield of Wrath which protects you as you get back into melee range and switch to GS.

Please let me know if this makes sense and if anyone else has any other specific ways to maximize guardian DPS in a glass cannon build like this.

I sometimes take some time out from playing just to switch my UI off and wander around some of my favorite areas of Tyria, eyes wide and muttering ‘HOLY SWISS CHEESE’ at how much gorgeosity is packed into this game.

I come from a game artist background and a lot of what I learned through video tutorials and whatnot were from lead artists at ArenaNet that worked on this game. They really are the best in the biz.
DrDivine, your hat is well tipped.

stingray.5160:

I think part of the problem too is that you can’t have more than 1 preset build. Therefore, if you can only have 1 set build then you might as well have the DPS one. It will be in demand for PVE, quick COF runs , wvw and even Fractals. No one in a party will complain because your doing too much DPS.

If they had multiple build then you wouldn’t mind trying others out and if they didn’t work switch back until you got it working right for you.

Exactly! Thank you for bringing up my biggest dream for GW2, Multiple Build Templates. The reason why DPS maximized stats are so commonly used is that you have to choose one build & stat combo for all encounters while in a dungeon, fractal, WvW ect. with no easy way to switch depending on group composition or situation.

Unfortunately the lowest common denominator DPS (zerker) works the best overall in most situations when you can only choose one. But if you could strategically swap to an attrition/healing or control/interrupt build if the group needed it or if the encounter ahead required it you would be more effective than just powering through with a DPS glass build. Then swap back to your DPS build when that is optimal.

I’ve written a lot about the specific advantages to having Build Templates in GW2 on other threads so I’ll leave it there. Thanks again for raising that point stingray.

VOLKON.1290:

WRay.2391:

After ascended introduction you have stats increase. This forces you to get it ASAP to have the same benefits in stats as exotics granted previously. This prevents you from doing other content (in most cases it’s psychological desire, but it doesn’t really matter. With one patch ANET made you a second class citizen considering initial game setup and manifesto). Or you can admit that manifesto failed and this game is the same as the others MMOs on the market now. In this case I’ll switch to another game as soon as will find a good one.

Forces? Why? What can’t you do in the game without ascended stats? Is there new content that’s ascended only that I didn’t hear about?

Eh… no. You’re not forced into getting ascended. Maybe you think you are as a relic of past games where numbers were far more significant, but no, it’s ridiculous to claim that you’re being “forced” into ascended gear. If you want it, go for it. If not, nothing changes.

Forces. Sheesh.

Being “forced by a psychological desire” is closer to the definition of mental illness than it is to ‘grind’. Some people are saying that certain content (high level fractals for instance) is impossible now without ascended armor & weapons, even though nothing has changed in fractals relating to AR since before those ascended items were introduced. It’s simply an illogical perception that in reality isn’t ‘forcing’ anyone to do anything, and certainly not locking anyone out of any content of the game.

No content is locked due to gear checks, just as before and just as was implied by the manifesto.

Have to agree with Balekai and LanfearShadowflame on this, it’s a little sad but true. ArenaNet does obviously see this as an area to improve though and has done some work to improve the PvE AI for a lot of encounters, requiring more control/mitigation.

For instance Karka bosses (need to boonstrip & reflect), the Queens Gauntlet (Liadri specifically), perma-stunning Aether Blades, Toxic Alliance etc. These additions give me confidence that ArenaNet is working to break the zerker>all meta that a lot of the PvE content is plagued with at the moment.

I pretty much had the same experience you are having wolfsong when I was leveling my ranger. Between the levels of 30-50 or so I would marvel that I could just set a spirit to auto-attack and let my pet take out 2-3 mobs at a time without even having to be at the keyboard (just as an experiment mind you). There was a reason that the majority of bots back then were rangers. This changed quickly sometime after level 50-60 and the challenge returned.

I think the difficulty curve really does depend on the profession while leveling. My thief for instance died constantly in PvE from levels 1-40 but is now in a good spot at level 80. My necro seemed easier at earlier levels, difficult at mid levels 30-40, and easier at high levels.

And as others have said Orr & Southsun Cove can be really challenging even at level 80 with any profession.

O.K….now I’m done

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Wasbunny.6531:

‘Skill’ is not just having tools available to spam, or how fast you can spam them. It’s when to use those tools/abilities…in any game. It’s timing.

Even in games like bowling, where you have one skill (roll the ball) you have to know when to put some ‘english’ on it to get that 7-10 split or just hurl it as fast and as accurate as you can to get a strike.

Skill is not how many abilites you have.
Skill is not how fast you can use them.
Skill is not being the overwhelming outnumbering force.
Skill is reactive, knowing when to do something at the right time.

I’m done with this thread since it seems to boil down to the basic definition of ‘skill’ is for some reason lost on some people. Just please, either look up the definition of skill or post a video link showing how you completed any of the content by using no skill.

And btw, if anyone says it takes no skill to play a thief, they have never played a thief.

I can guarantee you that there are thieves… with none of what you define as “skill”, who have legendaries, ascended, piles of gold and 10k+ achievements. Nothing in this game is gated based on your “skill” definition. It is not a skill based game, period. The absolute worst thief in game can gain as much in the whole sphere of the game as the best can. It takes little skill to blob content, gank yaks and run from players in wvw, grind maps, mats, do JPs and hit F repeatedly. And this goes for any class in this game.

Agreed. No skill is required to attaining gold (can be bought by real money).

The worst player can gain as much as the best player? If that were true I would totally agree, but it’s not. The more skilled players are more effective in every game-play mode I’ve been in, whether it’s WvW, sPvP, or PvE.

It takes little skill to ‘blob content’. Agreed. I guess I should link my previous post.

I’m confused about what argument some of you are actually making, and how you’re able to arrive at that conclusion. Is it:

A) You have never developed any skill and are successful in all content of the game (PvE,WvW,sPvP) by using only one skill on auto-attack. Conclusion being the game is too easy for non-skilled players.

or

B) You have developed a lot of skill at all types of game-play and therefore the game seems too easy. The only logical conclusion being the game is easy for skilled players.

or

C) Sheer numbers of players (zergs) can overwhelm any content if the number is high enough, so very little skill is required in those situations. Conclusion, the more players against a target the less individual skills are a factor.

If the argument some of you are making is ‘A’ I would absolutely agree with you, if it were true or even possible. No one should be able to never learn or utilize the combat mechanics of the game and still be competitive or successful in all game-play modes. I simply don’t think it’s possible. I would love to see a video of a party of 5 players completing a dungeon, taking a WvW enemy camp, winning an sPvP match, cleansing an Orrian temple etc. using only one skill and no dodge, ability, or positioning skills. Even bots have to use all their abilities just to kill an easy mob in Orr for instance.

A very easy way to eliminate ‘skill’ as a variable would be to set up a 1v1 with identical builds/stats. If skill is no part of the equation and it is just a gear & stat check then they would tie, forever. Or test out the theory that a dungeon can be completed with 5 people only using one skill, no strategic positioning, and no dodge.

If the argument is ‘B’ then I would have to agree and it is as it should be.

If the argument is ‘C’ then I would also agree, somewhat. The ‘skills’ of a zerg (as with any army actually) is primarily in organization and communication. For instance Teq not only needs high numbers of players but also a lot of organization. The same goes for WvW zergs. The skill comes more from the overall strategy than the skills of the individual players.

If the argument is that running the Queensdale zerg-train is easy and requires no skill then yes, I totally and absolutely agree.

‘Skill’ is not just having tools available to spam, or how fast you can spam them. It’s when to use those tools/abilities…in any game. It’s timing.

Even in games like bowling, where you have one skill (roll the ball) you have to know when to put some ‘english’ on it to get that 7-10 split or just hurl it as fast and as accurate as you can to get a strike.

Skill is not how many abilites you have.
Skill is not how fast you can use them.
Skill is not being the overwhelming outnumbering force.
Skill is reactive, knowing when to do something at the right time.

I’m done with this thread since it seems to boil down to the basic definition of ‘skill’ is for some reason lost on some people. Just please, either look up the definition of skill or post a video link showing how you completed any of the content by using no skill.

And btw, if anyone says it takes no skill to play a thief, they have never played a thief.

rogerwilko.6895:

“we just don’t want players to grind any more”

This is what a grind actually looks like.

Gadgetzan Reputation Grind

I believe this is the sort of thing they were referring to.

Just so everyone is clear, this is what a grind actually looks like.

Gadgetzan Reputation Grind

I’m confused about what argument some of you are actually making, and how you’re able to arrive at that conclusion. Is it:

A) You have never developed any skill and are successful in all content of the game (PvE,WvW,sPvP) by using only one skill on auto-attack. Conclusion being the game is too easy for non-skilled players.

or

B) You have developed a lot of skill at all types of game-play and therefore the game seems too easy. The only logical conclusion being the game is easy for skilled players.

or

C) Sheer numbers of players (zergs) can overwhelm any content if the number is high enough, so very little skill is required in those situations. Conclusion, the more players against a target the less individual skills are a factor.

If the argument some of you are making is ‘A’ I would absolutely agree with you, if it were true or even possible. No one should be able to never learn or utilize the combat mechanics of the game and still be competitive or successful in all game-play modes. I simply don’t think it’s possible. I would love to see a video of a party of 5 players completing a dungeon, taking a WvW enemy camp, winning an sPvP match, cleansing an Orrian temple etc. using only one skill and no dodge, ability, or positioning skills. Even bots have to use all their abilities just to kill an easy mob in Orr for instance.

A very easy way to eliminate ‘skill’ as a variable would be to set up a 1v1 with identical builds/stats. If skill is no part of the equation and it is just a gear & stat check then they would tie, forever. Or test out the theory that a dungeon can be completed with 5 people only using one skill, no strategic positioning, and no dodge.

If the argument is ‘B’ then I would have to agree and it is as it should be.

If the argument is ‘C’ then I would also agree, somewhat. The ‘skills’ of a zerg (as with any army actually) is primarily in organization and communication. For instance Teq not only needs high numbers of players but also a lot of organization. The same goes for WvW zergs. The skill comes more from the overall strategy than the skills of the individual players.

If the argument is that running the Queensdale zerg-train is easy and requires no skill then yes, I totally and absolutely agree.

Morrigan.2809:

The “problem” with the combat is that you are trying to be a healer or a tank.
Seriously- you are looking at how to make the trinity effective in GW2- this is not possible because the game was not designed for it.

Personally I think the DPS- PvE meta we are seeing is because you are not alone in this- at least in part.
the other half of the equation is game design.
It is also at fault here because of the condition cap we all know about.

Fact is there are very many kinds of builds available and they are all interesting and mostly- touch wood- viable.
Players just find it very difficult to let go of the trinity and in it’s absence they go for the avenue of least resistance- which is DPS

Perfectly said.

Thanks DreamyAbaddon for adding the period at the end of

“This is a skill-based Game.”

Might be the best overview intro to GW2 profession/trait/combat videos I’ve seen. Great job.

Henri Blanche.8276:

(2) Not only should most wildlife run away… other adversaries should lose morale and run away as well. Vanquishing a foe should be just as rewarding as killing a foe.

Most already do exactly that, it’s one of the first things that struck me coming from other mmo’s. A lot of mobs will run a short distance away once their hp dips below a certain level, catch their breath for a second and regain their courage and rush back into the fray. And the level of ‘courage’ is different for each type of creature (bandits & moas seem to be the most cowardly)…I thought it was a really refreshing change from other game’s creature AI.

Key-binding your loot key to a separate key from your general interaction is really useful, especially if in a big group with a lot of warrior banners or whatever. Took me awhile to figure that one out too.

I personally love the interaction of the ‘neutral’ creatures, especially when they are hunted down by aggressive mobs. Very immersive, actually don’t think I’ve seen that in any other mmo’s and I consider it one of the many overlooked and interesting nuances of the game.

Anyone else struck by the irony of wanting something so that you can play the game unless you need to play the game in order to get it?

Home instance from which new quests & challenges are progressively unlocked granting rewards specific to factions or profession in the form of titles, skills and character flexibility.

Where/How— Sociopolitical Diversification: Player housing, Guild Halls, and Faction Alliances leading to new game play opportunities, rewards and content.

How/Rewards— Hero Recognition: Unique Skins, Titles, Rewards, followers and NPC reactions/opportunities based on the players individual feats in the world of Tyria regardless of how he/she chooses to play the game.

Rewards/Why— Role Diversification: New skills/traits, new weapons, access to inaccessible existing weapons, infusions and hybrid professions.

As can be seen, all three of these main ideas can be elegantly linked together. This is how I envision one way in which this could be implemented.

Upon reaching level 80 a profession ‘master’ trainer shows up in your home instance, revealing a list of goals for advanced study. I picture this list much like the achievement panel with running totals of progression towards each category, with the reward clearly indicated for each.

These areas of advanced study would take the form of unique challenges, quests or gambits that if completed would eventually unlock rewards of titles, an extra build template, new weapon skills, unique armor skins etc.

For instance one challenge might be for a thief to accept a temporary gambit that reduces all armor to 0 and seek out and kill a number of ranged enemies or specific bosses in order to unlock a new swap-able duel wield dagger skill. Also is rewarded the title ‘Knife in the Dark’ and a unique hooded armor skin.

There is a huge amount of flexibility with this system without the requirement of adding a lot of new content to the game. Through gambits and challenges the player could be encouraged to explore places and dynamic events that they might not have any other reason to discover or revisit.

A sense of studying under a master of their profession, pact representative, or guild mason and pushing themselves outside of their comfort zone in order to achieve something that is both visible to all and enhances their unique playstyle and QoL would offer much to those looking for horizontal progression after reaching level 80.

EDIT: Just had another idea of what form these hero level challenges could take. You could take all the Queen’s Gauntlet encounters and spread them all over Tyria in the form of solo only instances. It would also add some context and explanation as to where they came from and where they are now. I would love to discover where Liadri is hiding and plot my revenge.

This is probably one of the more expensive ideas, in terms of time and resources to develop, but it’s still my top choice:

Role Diversification: Earned build templates, new skills/traits, new weapons, access to inaccessible existing weapons, infusions and hybrid professions.

I modified the original to include ‘Earned Build Templates’ since this seems consistent with the other additions, and probably is the cheapest to implement. I also assume all these elements would have to be earned in some way so as to become a level of horizontal progression.

EDIT: I should add the emphasis would be on earning character flexibility as a way to continually improve the character after level 80. This would keep progression horizontal by allowing more finely tuned customization & flexibility to only be acquired through a considerable amount of time & effort, rather than just adding new skills.

Acquiring new build templates or more flexible skill swapping could be done through completing quests given by a profession trainer, a sort of advanced level of study the character can initiate once level 80 is reached.

This also might easily tie into either Sociopolitical Diversification, Hero Recognition or both. Any titles or faction achievements could have a direct correlation to an actual skill, ability, build template etc.

Kevan.8912:

yes, skill is important.

so, why to give even that 5% improvement in stats? skill would become the ONLY important thing in a fight.

wasn’t it sufficient to create just more tiers of legendary weapons armor etc…or even “ascended”…but with same statistics with existing exotics?
just to give cosmetic advancement to players who dedicate enough time to get that equipment?
everybody would have played and grinded without flaming in this forum, and also “pro grinding” players could find their reason d’etre in grinding for a better appearance of their characters
pro’s would show their real qualities in battle, AND in appearance.
and everybody would be fine

That’s a really good point. Basically if the new tier of ascended stats don’t matter much then why even bother making them different than exotics at all, except cosmetically? And if they do matter then people will justifiably feel they are forced to grind to stay competitive.

I guess my own motivation for lazily going for ascended armor (only have one piece so far) is just for an abstract sense of accomplishment that I have ‘best in slot’ gear. I’m transmuting all the ascended armor anyway since I personally don’t like the look so it’s really just a personal goal that I don’t feel forced to complete, just an extra option. I think without the slight stat improvement I wouldn’t have a reason to bother though.

Thinking about it more if they were to make a variety of styles available within each armor type to choose from, maybe even switchable like stats on legendaries, I would probably ‘grind’ for ascended armor even without any stat change.

Yeah I agree, something other than a small stat boost with ascendeds would have quieted a lot of the controversy. Again, good point.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

nexxe.7081:

The only way to effectively turn your character, is with the right-mouse button, but this can only happen while moving.

ehm… no. I turn my character all the time with only using the mouse.

Left click hold + move the mouse turns camera but not you,
right click hold + move the mouse turns your whole character.

Totally. I can’t even imagine relying on just A & D for movement.

One thing that is often left out of these ‘grind’ discussions is clarifying what the actual goal of the grind is. If it’s to stay competitive in wvw with others that have all ascended gear and so have a +5% stat advantage there are much more effective ways to do this, mainly by increasing your skill.

One of the great things about this game is that with very few exceptions player skill trumps stats. One ill-timed dodge or a well timed interrupt makes way more of a difference than a static +5% stat increase. The better player will usually win regardless of gear.

Think of it this way. Who is more likely to win a 1v1, a person who spends the majority of their time ‘grinding’ for that +5% stat edge while the other player spends their time perfecting their openers, counters and profession skills, researching and playing other professions to get a better handle on how to counter specific builds etc.

Being competitive in wvw not only does not require a gear grind, but actually tips the balance in favor of the player who instead spends their time improving their skill.

@Marcus Greythorne: The ways to obtain Dragonite don’t seem that limited to me. I don’t WvW so I get all I need by doing temples in Orr, world bosses and dungeons…I guess my point being I enjoy doing those things anyway so I never feel like it’s a grind.

@Dark Catalyst: I want to say…Netherwing? I don’t know, black & dark bluish flying thing…really liked it once I got it though. Forgot to add too that I wasn’t the only one grinding for it so was constantly fighting over the mobs with other players…not fun, not fun at all.

I went from WoW to Rift and then to GW2 and now I occasionally play a little Rift (now that it’s f2p) just to remind myself why I left it.

Combat in Rift is reduced to compiling all your skills in order of cooldowns, write a macro putting these in order from highest to lowest (one for ranged & one for melee) and assigning these to 1-3 keys. Walk up to an enemy mob, stand rooted (no reason to move unless out of a rare AoE) and start clicking your macro and wait until they are dead.

The combat in GW2 by comparison is so much more dynamic and skill based that I find myself spending hours just running around killing the same mobs over and over. Not to farm, not as part of any daily or gear ‘grind’, just because I love the dance that the GW2 combat system affords.

I also don’t understand how attaining things like ascended gear can be considered a grind in GW2. In WoW the only grind I decided to do was to get the mount I wanted. This could only be done by staying in one location, killing a specific group of mobs on a small hill…over and over and over and over….ad nauseum. I might as well have been playing the same level of PacMan for days on end. After days of this I finally got my mount, carpel tunnel, and a vow to never do a grind again.

By contrast look at what is considered a ‘grind’ in GW2 to get ascended materials. You can do temple events in Orr, jumping puzzles or mini dungeons, WvW, hunt down Champs, go to lower level zones and do some casual gathering, slay dragons or other world bosses, do dungeons or fractals…in other words playing the game. If one doesn’t enjoy doing any of those things and consider them a tedious grind then I find it hard to think they enjoy the game at all.

For me GW2 far outshines all other mmo’s on every level, and even most games in general. So much so that all it takes is a few minutes of stale mindless gameplay of other games to having me running and dodge-rolling back to GW2.

ArtemusHunter.9521:

Wasbunny.6531:

Believe it or not this is how (why?) this all happened today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaeA43-U5kM

Anyway great job ArenaNet and Happy New Year
“Don’t take any guff from these swine.” ~ Hunter S. Thompson

No its not. Phantoml0rd wasn’t playing gw2, dayz or eve online today and today those games were hit among others.

Of course you might be right, but it is suspicious that LoL was taken down by the same group that took down GW2 right when he says LoL went down…and whoever it was took down all game sites that he plays and streams (GW2 included). Of course they deny this but it does seem a little fishy.

I’m not the only one making this connection:

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/news/hacker-group-known-kitten -trolling-continue-take-websites/

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/news/hacker-group-kitten -target-world-warcraft-league-legends-ea/

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.838110-Update-Hackers-Bring-Down-LoL-DoTA-2-Blizzard-EA-Servers

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/hackers-take-down-league-of-legends-ea-and-blizzard-temporarily-update/1100-6416869/

http://top.adlesse.com/en/i/626027375942558240/the-hacker-group-known-as-kitten -trolling-continue-to-take-down-websites

http://lightlybuzzed.com/2013/12/31/hacked/?utm_source=FanSided&utm_medium=Network&utm_campaign=Around%20the%20Network

Who’s to say really. Still…

Happy New Year Everybody!

Believe it or not this is how (why?) this all happened today:

Anyway great job ArenaNet and Happy New Year
“Don’t take any guff from these swine.” ~ Hunter S. Thompson

Happy New Year!

…in erm 6 or so hours from west coast USA

“…ain’t no party like a west coast party cuz a west coast party don’t stop…”

Sorry the kittens (actually typed that hehe) are making you and others scramble on New Year’s Stephane.

Happy New Year ArenaNet! You’re all legendaries.

1. Earned Extra Build Templates

For some reason this never seems to make it into the compiled lists but here’s one of the posts about it.

2. New Unlockable Weapon Skills (sub-professions)

Either gained through quests from profession trainers or pact organizations, allows you to swap weapon skills individually once unlocked. A lot has been written about this and I see a lot of interesting potential for horizontal progression.

3. Skin Lockers / Wardrobes

If you’ve made it this far in the thread you’ve probably got a clear idea what this is shaping up to be.