Guild Wars 2

Totally feel ya OP. I think the main reason I’ve been so vocal on this issue with the newest proposed Mesmer nerfs is that the play-style and build I enjoy the most is the Condition Mesmer (I jokingly call my weird build Mesmermancer). For some reason this build and style of playing is being singled out for elimination with no reasons given other than it’s ‘cheesy’.

Of course Mesmer being my main since launch and really my favorite profession to play (I have all 8 @ 80) that’s where all my ascended armor/weapons & trinkets go…all Rabid. So if Condition Mesmers become utterly useless all my Rabid gear, not to mention my enjoyment of the profession, goes the way of the Dodo.

Before we all start asking for a nerf to any of the Mesmer ‘on-dodge’ traits (DE + clone death) by making them uniquely blockable or whatever we must find out if they are really overpowered in the first place.

You need to find out how much something is before stating it’s too much.
Sorry to sound like a broken record, I’m really more reminding the devs than anyone else.

Test:
So I did a simple side by side comparison test between Mesmer & Thief using only ‘on-dodge’ traits (Deceptive Evasion vs Uncatchable) and only dodging to kill a moving target golem.

All ‘clone death’ traits & DE taken by the Mesmer and all ‘on dodge’ traits taken by the Thief.

Results:
Mesmer: About 3-5 stacks of bleed 100% up-time (90% from auto-attacking clones). Very rarely a few seconds of Cripple, 1 stack of Confusion, Vulnerability or Weakness.

Thief : 4 stacks of bleed 100% up-time. 45+ seconds of cripple (continually stacking).
also 2-4 stacks of might gained as well as swiftness, endurance regeneration & condition removal

Conclusion:
If anyone can seriously look at those two examples and arrive at the conclusion that the Mesmer is in need of having their ‘on-dodge’ traits nerfed in any way for the sake of balance…then I just don’t know what else to say.

This is not a theory. This was an actual test that anyone with a Mesmer and a Thief can do for themselves in 5 minutes. I encourage anyone who is genuinely curious as to if these traits are overpowered to try it out, it’s actually quite funny.

This was unrealistically best case scenario too, since I was chasing a slow moving golem running in circles and would hope that any actual player would take even less damage from these traits, by both classes.

Please make a special note that 90% of the bleeds supplied by the Mesmer in this test are coming from the clones auto-attacking (Sharper Images trait).

The real conditions supplied by all 3 traits to a moving target is closer to 0 than to 1.
So once again, before anyone says they are in need of a nerf please:

• Explain why you feel 0-1 stack of bleed for a 45 point investment is OP or
• Do the test yourself and show how my numbers are wrong.

I made some minor clarifications to the above (Caltrops should have been Uncatchable). I’ve been trying to make these tests as clear to understand as possible but in reality it’s far simpler to just run the test yourself. It’s really the first and most crucial step before making any assertions about relative balance.

Should be noted I’m not finding there to be anything OP with any thief traits. I’m also concluding it’s hard to logically defend the argument that the clone death traits, when taken with DE are overly powerful and require a nerf based on these results.

EDIT: I realize facts are usually less interesting than speculation but if anyone wants to see the results of my other two tests I’ve been compiling them here.

PvX MESMER Are clone death traits OP?

Before we all start asking for a nerf to any of the Mesmer ‘on-dodge’ traits (DE + clone death) by making them uniquely blockable or whatever we must find out if they are really overpowered in the first place.

You need to find out how much something is before stating it’s too much.
Sorry to sound like a broken record, I’m really more reminding the devs than anyone else.

Test:
So I did a simple side by side comparison test between Mesmer & Thief using only ‘on-dodge’ traits (Deceptive Evasion vs Uncatchable) and only dodging to kill a moving target golem.

All ‘clone death’ traits & DE taken by the Mesmer and all ‘on dodge’ traits taken by the Thief.

Results:
Mesmer: About 3-5 stacks of bleed 100% up-time (90% from auto-attacking clones). Very rarely a few seconds of Cripple, 1 stack of Confusion, Vulnerability or Weakness.

Thief : 4 stacks of bleed 100% up-time. 45+ seconds of cripple (continually stacking).
also 2-4 stacks of might gained as well as swiftness, endurance regeneration & condition removal

Conclusion:
If anyone can seriously look at those two examples and arrive at the conclusion that the Mesmer is in need of having their ‘on-dodge’ traits nerfed in any way for the sake of balance…then I just don’t know what else to say.

This is not a theory. This was an actual test that anyone with a Mesmer and a Thief can do for themselves in 5 minutes. I encourage anyone who is genuinely curious as to if these traits are overpowered to try it out, it’s actually quite funny.

This was unrealistically best case scenario too, since I was chasing a slow moving golem running in circles and would hope that any actual player would take even less damage from these traits, by both classes.

Please make a special note that 90% of the bleeds supplied by the Mesmer in this test are coming from the clones auto-attacking (Sharper Images trait).

The real conditions supplied by all 3 traits to a moving target is closer to 0 than to 1.
So once again, before anyone says they are in need of a nerf please:

• Explain why you feel 0-1 stack of bleed for a 45 point investment is OP or
• Do the test yourself and show how my numbers are wrong.

I made some minor clarifications to the above (Caltrops should have been Uncatchable). I’ve been trying to make these tests as clear to understand as possible but in reality it’s far simpler to just run the test yourself. It’s really the first and most crucial step before making any assertions about relative balance.

Should be noted I’m not finding there to be anything OP with any thief traits. I’m also concluding it’s hard to logically defend the argument that the clone death traits, when taken with DE are overly powerful and require a nerf based on these results.

EDIT: I realize facts are usually less interesting than speculation but if anyone wants to see the results of my other two tests I’ve been compiling them here.

PvX MESMER Are clone death traits OP?

Just wanted to thank Supcutie for the amazingly informative and well put together guide. I had limited experience with shatter builds and play-style so I learned a lot and inspired me to give shatter another go.

It’s ironic though that some of the really interesting shatter tricks you point out I learned 2 days before ArenaNet posted their balance preview, threatening many of those pro tips. Thanks for trying to turn the heat up on ’em a bit for their recklessness.

Qaelyn.7612:

I’ll believe there’s something wrong with PU when I see PU mesmers all over the top of the PvP leaderboards, being demanded in dungeon runs, and dominating WvW zergs.

Until then, it’s just more “person X beat me and used stealth, so nerf it!”. Why any mesmer would support nerfing one of our best traits, regardless of the reason, is beyond me. It’s not like we’d be guaranteed to get some sort of improvement with it in some other area, and it’s not like PU as it is right now puts mesmers into some kind of overpowered place.

Good point. We’re getting a little off topic but still good point. I’ve edited my post above to mirror some of your arguments here.

Iavra.8510:

Personally, i don’t see any of the on-death traits as a problem in particular. Having 3 defensive boons on PU (that is: No bad option like any other RNG skill or trait) is what’s more of a problem for me.

That’s why i suggest removing Aegis and replacing it with one of Swiftness or Retaliation, maybe even Might or Fury. Aegis in stealth is extremely powerful in a 1v1 situation and shouldn’t be possible that easily, imo.

Yeah I’ve seen this idea floating around the forums and think it’s a good one. I’ve never actually taken PU or run any type of PU build but I can see how Aegis might be the real unbalancing factor there.

EDIT: Having no personal experience with it though I really don’t have an opinion whether it truly is OP or not. Certainly before even considering any nerf to PU I would hope the devs do more testing than was done before their proposed DE nerf. I’ve heard a lot of arguments against PU boiling down to ’they’re just so annoying to fight’ so they should be very careful if considering this a good enough reason to nerf PU.

Of course not once was Prismatic Understanding mentioned in the balance stream so I have no idea if they are even considering it a balance issue at all.

Redball.7236:

Wasbunny.6531:

Before we all start asking for a nerf to any of the Mesmer ‘on-dodge’ traits (DE + clone death) by making them uniquely blockable or whatever we must find out if they are really overpowered in the first place.

You need to find out how much something is before stating it’s too much.
Sorry to sound like a broken record, I’m really more reminding the devs than anyone else.

So I did a simple side by side comparison between Mesmer & Thief using only ‘on-dodge’ traits (Deceptive Evasion & Caltrops) and only dodging to kill a moving target golem.

Mesmer: About 3-5 stacks of bleed 100% up-time (90% from auto-attacking clones). Very rarely a few seconds of Cripple,Vulnerability or Weakness.

Thief : 4 stacks of bleed 100% up-time. 45+ seconds of cripple.
also 2-4 stacks of might gained as well as swiftness and endurance regeneration

If anyone can seriously look at those two examples and arrive at the conclusion that the Mesmer is in need of having their ‘on-dodge’ traits nerfed in any way for the sake of balance…then I just don’t know what else to say.

This is not a valid comparison, mesmer can dodge to shatter a clone that is far away from them to cause conditions to a target. A thief would need to be on top of the target in melee range.

Not to mention that the caltrops a thief drops pulse every second and are easily walked out of, compared to a mesmer clone death which applies all the conditions at once.

This was not a theory, this was an actual test that anyone with a Mesmer and a Thief can do for themselves in 5 minutes. I encourage anyone who is genuinely curious as to if these traits are overpowered to try it out, it’s actually quite funny.

This was unrealistically best case scenario too, since I was chasing a slow moving golem running in circles and would hope that any actual player would take even less damage from these traits, by both classes.

Please make a special note that 90% of the bleeds supplied by the Mesmer in this test are coming from the clones auto-attacking (Sharper Images trait).

The real conditions supplied by all 3 traits to a moving target is closer to 0 than to 1.
So once again, before anyone says they are in need of a nerf please:

• Explain why you feel 0-1 stack of bleed for a 45 point investment is OP or
• Do the test yourself and show how my numbers are wrong.

The more I think about the idea of making DE a baseline mechanic rather than a trait at all the more I like concept. Opens up so many possibilities for the replacement trait and addresses the issue that all builds but phantasm are almost required to take it anyway. Would add a little more active play to phantasm builds too since they would have to be careful if they didn’t want to override if 3 phantasms were out.

These are the kind of balance ideas I would welcome debating with the balance team and community but as you said Countless, that’s probably a fairy tale.

Before we all start asking for a nerf to any of the Mesmer ‘on-dodge’ traits (DE + clone death) by making them uniquely blockable or whatever we must find out if they are really overpowered in the first place.

You need to find out how much something is before stating it’s too much.
Sorry to sound like a broken record, I’m really more reminding the devs than anyone else.

So I did a simple side by side comparison between Mesmer & Thief using only ‘on-dodge’ traits (Deceptive Evasion & Caltrops) and only dodging to kill a moving target golem.

Mesmer: About 3-5 stacks of bleed 100% up-time (90% from auto-attacking clones). Very rarely a few seconds of Cripple,Vulnerability or Weakness.

Thief : 4 stacks of bleed 100% up-time. 45+ seconds of cripple.
also 2-4 stacks of might gained as well as swiftness and endurance regeneration

If anyone can seriously look at those two examples and arrive at the conclusion that the Mesmer is in need of having their ‘on-dodge’ traits nerfed in any way for the sake of balance…then I just don’t know what else to say.

Before we all start asking for a nerf to any of the Mesmer ‘on-dodge’ traits (DE + clone death) by making them uniquely blockable or whatever we must find out if they are really overpowered in the first place.

You need to find out how much something is before stating it’s too much.
Sorry to sound like a broken record, I’m really more reminding the devs than anyone else.

So I did a simple side by side comparison between Mesmer & Thief using only ‘on-dodge’ traits (Deceptive Evasion & Caltrops) and only dodging to kill a moving target golem.

Mesmer: About 3-5 stacks of bleed 100% up-time (90% from auto-attacking clones). Very rarely a few seconds of Cripple,Vulnerability or Weakness.

Thief : 4 stacks of bleed 100% up-time. 45+ seconds of cripple.
also 2-4 stacks of might gained as well as swiftness and endurance regeneration

If anyone can seriously look at those two examples and arrive at the conclusion that the Mesmer is in need of having their ‘on-dodge’ traits nerfed in any way for the sake of balance…then I just don’t know what else to say.

Before we all start asking for a nerf to any of the Mesmer ‘on-dodge’ traits (DE + clone death) by making them uniquely blockable or whatever we must find out if they are really overpowered in the first place.

You need to find out how much something is before stating it’s too much.
Sorry to sound like a broken record, I’m really more reminding the devs than anyone else.

So I did a simple side by side comparison between Mesmer & Thief using only ‘on-dodge’ traits (Deceptive Evasion & Caltrops) and only dodging to kill a moving target golem.

Mesmer: About 3-5 stacks of bleed 100% up-time (90% from auto-attacking clones). Very rarely a few seconds of Cripple,Vulnerability or Weakness.

Thief : 4 stacks of bleed 100% up-time. 45+ seconds of cripple.
also 2-4 stacks of might gained as well as swiftness and endurance regeneration

If anyone can seriously look at those two examples and arrive at the conclusion that the Mesmer is in need of having their ‘on-dodge’ traits nerfed in any way for the sake of balance…then I just don’t know what else to say.

The elimination of an entire build and play-style (Condition Mesmer) with no supporting testing data and central hypothesis based solely on the devs finding it ‘cheesy’ is a huge problem.

I also completely disagree that Deceptive Evasion as it’s functioning right now is too strong and is unbalancing the game. I conducted a separate test specifically proving this point.

Re-posting this here since it’s very relavent

~snip~
We’ll be discussing this change more internally. Most likely we will make some adjustments or look at other options such as replacing clones not triggering Debilitating Dissipation so it does not impact mesmer play as much which wasn’t our intent.

This sentence should terrify any remaining Condition Mesmers.

Just to see how devastating this would be on only one of our few semi-direct Condition applying abilities (scepter auto-attack coupled with ‘on clone death’ traits) I did some tests in the Heart of the Mists. This is apparently what the developers are worried is unbalancing the game. I’ll let the numbers speak for themselves.

Stationary Target Test (PvE):
Single stationary target golem (to represent PvE stationary target) auto-attacking with scepter skill 1 and all three clone death traits (45 point investment) taken.

Results:

• Weakness 50% up-time
• 1 stack of confusion 100% up-time
• Cripple 100% up-time
• 3 stacks of Vulnerability 50% up-time
• 3-6 stacks of Bleed 100% up-time

Moving Target Test (PvP):
Single moving target golem (to represent slow moving PvP target) auto-attacking with scepter skill 1 and all three clone death traits (45 point investment) taken.

Results:

• 0-3 stacks of Bleed 100% up-time
• Occasional spikes similar to the stationary results when the target gets crippled, but the duration/stacks of the conditions were reduced. This spike would trigger roughly once every 20 seconds only when the target was snared by cripple and only if near the clone being destroyed.

Debilitating Dissipation Test:
Debilitating Dissipation trait removed, other two ‘clone death’ traits still active.

Stationary Results (PvE):

• 1 stack of confusion 100% up-time
• Cripple 100% up-time
• 0-4 stacks of Bleed 100% up-time

Moving Results (PvP):

• 0-3 stacks of Bleed
• Occasional spikes similar to the stationary results when the target gets crippled, but the duration/stacks of the conditions were reduced. This spike would trigger roughly once every 20 seconds only when the target was snared by cripple and only if near the clone being destroyed.

Well, my ultimate conclusion from all this testing and debating hasn’t changed at all. I see no supportable or logical reason to change anything with either Deceptive Evasion or any of the Dissipation traits. In fact any such change will cripple all Mesmer builds, except possibly power based phantasm builds.

I should add too, the reason I put this to the test (something I like to think is routinely done by the balance team anyway) is so that if ArenaNet states that the Debilitating Dissipation trait was too strong in PvP and thus required a nerf, we will know they are talking about 0-3 stacks of bleed and a very rare 4 seconds of Vulnerability or Weakness.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

~snip~
We’ll be discussing this change more internally. Most likely we will make some adjustments or look at other options such as replacing clones not triggering Debilitating Dissipation so it does not impact mesmer play as much which wasn’t our intent.

This sentence should terrify any remaining Condition Mesmers.

Just to see how devastating this would be on only one of our few semi-direct Condition applying abilities (scepter auto-attack coupled with ‘on clone death’ traits) I did some tests in the Heart of the Mists. This is apparently what the developers are worried is unbalancing the game. I’ll let the numbers speak for themselves.

Stationary Target Test (PvE):
Single stationary target golem (to represent PvE stationary target) auto-attacking with scepter skill 1 and all three clone death traits (45 point investment) taken.

Results:

• Weakness 50% up-time
• 1 stack of confusion 100% up-time
• Cripple 100% up-time
• 3 stacks of Vulnerability 50% up-time
• 3-6 stacks of Bleed 100% up-time

Moving Target Test (PvP):
Single moving target golem (to represent slow moving PvP target) auto-attacking with scepter skill 1 and all three clone death traits (45 point investment) taken.

Results:

• 0-3 stacks of Bleed 100% up-time
• Occasional spikes similar to the stationary results when the target gets crippled, but the duration/stacks of the conditions were reduced. This spike would trigger roughly once every 20 seconds only when the target was snared by cripple and only if near the clone being destroyed.

Debilitating Dissipation Test:
Debilitating Dissipation trait removed, other two ‘clone death’ traits still active.

Stationary Results (PvE):

• 1 stack of confusion 100% up-time
• Cripple 100% up-time
• 0-4 stacks of Bleed 100% up-time

Moving Results (PvP):

• 0-3 stacks of Bleed
• Occasional spikes similar to the stationary results when the target gets crippled, but the duration/stacks of the conditions were reduced. This spike would trigger roughly once every 20 seconds only when the target was snared by cripple and only if near the clone being destroyed.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

~snip~
We’ll be discussing this change more internally. Most likely we will make some adjustments or look at other options such as replacing clones not triggering Debilitating Dissipation so it does not impact mesmer play as much which wasn’t our intent.

This sentence should terrify any remaining Condition Mesmers.

Just to see how devastating this would be on only one of our few semi-direct Condition applying abilities (scepter auto-attack coupled with ‘on clone death’ traits) I did some tests in the Heart of the Mists. This is apparently what the developers are worried is unbalancing the game. I’ll let the numbers speak for themselves.

Stationary Target Test (PvE):
Single stationary target golem (to represent PvE stationary target) auto-attacking with scepter skill 1 and all three clone death traits (45 point investment) taken.

Results:

• Weakness 50% up-time
• 1 stack of confusion 100% up-time
• Cripple 100% up-time
• 3 stacks of Vulnerability 50% up-time
• 3-6 stacks of Bleed 100% up-time

Moving Target Test (PvP):
Single moving target golem (to represent slow moving PvP target) auto-attacking with scepter skill 1 and all three clone death traits (45 point investment) taken.

Results:

• 0-3 stacks of Bleed 100% up-time
• Occasional spikes similar to the stationary results when the target gets crippled, but the duration/stacks of the conditions were reduced. This spike would trigger roughly once every 20 seconds only when the target was snared by cripple and only if near the clone being destroyed.

Debilitating Dissipation Test:
Debilitating Dissipation trait removed, other two ‘clone death’ traits still active.

Stationary Results (PvE):

• 1 stack of confusion 100% up-time
• Cripple 100% up-time
• 0-4 stacks of Bleed 100% up-time

Moving Results (PvP):

• 0-3 stacks of Bleed
• Occasional spikes similar to the stationary results when the target gets crippled, but the duration/stacks of the conditions were reduced. This spike would trigger roughly once every 20 seconds only when the target was snared by cripple and only if near the clone being destroyed.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

~snip~
We’ll be discussing this change more internally. Most likely we will make some adjustments or look at other options such as replacing clones not triggering Debilitating Dissipation so it does not impact mesmer play as much which wasn’t our intent.

This sentence should terrify any remaining Condition Mesmers.

Just to see how devastating this would be on only one of our few semi-direct Condition applying abilities (scepter auto-attack coupled with ‘on clone death’ traits) I did some tests in the Heart of the Mists. This is apparently what the developers are worried is unbalancing the game. I’ll let the numbers speak for themselves.

Stationary Target Test (PvE):
Single stationary target golem (to represent PvE stationary target) auto-attacking with scepter skill 1 and all three clone death traits (45 point investment) taken.

Results:

• Weakness 50% up-time
• 1 stack of confusion 100% up-time
• Cripple 100% up-time
• 3 stacks of Vulnerability 50% up-time
• 3-6 stacks of Bleed 100% up-time

Moving Target Test (PvP):
Single moving target golem (to represent slow moving PvP target) auto-attacking with scepter skill 1 and all three clone death traits (45 point investment) taken.

Results:

• 0-3 stacks of Bleed 100% up-time
• Occasional spikes similar to the stationary results when the target gets crippled, but the duration/stacks of the conditions were reduced. This spike would trigger roughly once every 20 seconds only when the target was snared by cripple and only if near the clone being destroyed.

Debilitating Dissipation Test:
Debilitating Dissipation trait removed, other two ‘clone death’ traits still active.

Stationary Results (PvE):

• 1 stack of confusion 100% up-time
• Cripple 100% up-time
• 0-4 stacks of Bleed 100% up-time

Moving Results (PvP):

• 0-3 stacks of Bleed 100% up-time
• Occasional spikes similar to the stationary results when the target gets crippled, but the duration/stacks of the conditions were reduced. This spike would trigger roughly once every 20 seconds only when the target was snared by cripple and only if near the clone being destroyed.

Wasbunny.6531:

Could anyone having an opinion (one way or another) relating specifically to the perception that the ‘clone death’ builds & traits are too powerful please post your thoughts & findings here:

PvX MESMER Are clone death traits OP?

Since this was the reason given for the Deceptive Evasion nerf I think it’s important to really look into whether this is true or not, especially when proposing alternative solutions like nerfing those specific traits or builds.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Thanks for the feedback guys, there were some good points brought up here. This is why we wanted to discuss these future changes so that we had time to adjust to your feedback.

We’ll be discussing this change more internally. Most likely we will make some adjustments or look at other options such as replacing clones not triggering Debilitating Dissipation so it does not impact mesmer play as much which wasn’t our intent.

Saw this coming down the road.
We need to get ahead of this one or we risk just another pointless nerf to an already struggling trait, build and playstyle. Please, before making assumptions like ‘the clone death traits are OP, so just adjust them’ take a few minutes to do a simple test to isolate how much damage the Dissipation traits account for when coupled with DE.

I’m a little surprised I even need to bring this up but when considering any adjustment:

One needs to determine how much something is before stating it’s too much.

You’ll find I did one such test on the link above and the extremely meager results might surprise some that are thinking these traits when combined with DE are causing any balancing issues whatsoever.

Develper response on another thread:

Thanks for the feedback guys, there were some good points brought up here. This is why we wanted to discuss these future changes so that we had time to adjust to your feedback.

We’ll be discussing this change more internally. Most likely we will make some adjustments or look at other options such as replacing clones not triggering Debilitating Dissipation so it does not impact mesmer play as much which wasn’t our intent.

Saw this coming down the road.
We need to get ahead of this one or we risk just another pointless nerf to an already struggling trait, build and playstyle. Please, before making assumptions like ‘the clone death traits are OP, so just adjust them’ take a few minutes to do a simple test to isolate how much damage the Dissipation traits account for when coupled with DE.

I’m a little surprised I even need to bring this up but when considering any adjustment:

One needs to determine how much something is before stating it’s too much.

You’ll find I did one such test above and the extremely meager results might surprise some that are thinking these traits, combined with DE are causing any balancing issues whatsoever.

Wasbunny.6531:

Could anyone having an opinion (one way or another) relating specifically to the perception that the ‘clone death’ builds & traits are too powerful please post your thoughts & findings here:

PvX MESMER Are clone death traits OP?

Since this was the reason given for the Deceptive Evasion nerf I think it’s important to really look into whether this is true or not, especially when proposing alternative solutions like nerfing those specific traits or builds.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Thanks for the feedback guys, there were some good points brought up here. This is why we wanted to discuss these future changes so that we had time to adjust to your feedback.

We’ll be discussing this change more internally. Most likely we will make some adjustments or look at other options such as replacing clones not triggering Debilitating Dissipation so it does not impact mesmer play as much which wasn’t our intent.

Saw this coming down the road.
We need to get ahead of this one or we risk just another pointless nerf to an already struggling trait, build and playstyle. Please, before making assumptions like ‘the clone death traits are OP, so just adjust them’ take a few minutes to do a simple test to isolate how much damage the Dissipation traits account for when coupled with DE.

I’m a little surprised I even need to bring this up but when considering any adjustment:

One needs to determine how much something is before stating it’s too much.

You’ll find I did one such test on the link above and the extremely meager results might surprise some that are thinking these traits, combined with DE are causing any balancing issues whatsoever.

So I went out to the Heart of the Mists and beat up some golems to test this out and see how much damage & conditions are dished out in an unrealistically ideal situation by the clone death traits and DE alone.

My test setup: 2 identical scepter/torch weapon sets each with 2 sigils of energy, auto-attack off. Got 3 clones out and dodged everytime it was possible on the unmoving, undodging golem. This is what I found:

• From 0-4 stacks of bleeds are maintained (keep in mind the scepter clones are making a small amount of bleeds too, so maybe 1-2 need to be deducted). Never lasting more than 5 seconds.

• Never more than 1 stack of confusion for 3 seconds for about half the time.

• Vulnerability was about the same as the bleeds 0-4 stacks, even slightly lower at times I think accounting for the extra bleeds the clones are applying on crit.

• Weakness about the same as confusion, up at most half the time.

Keep in mind, this is the most that would be inflicted upon the genius player standing motionless in PvP with no dodges, blocks or condi clears while a mesmer dodge rolls off of them exploding clones in their face. Almost any passive heal in the game will out-heal any of this.

So there you have it. I guess because choosing to be a condition Mesmer I need to scrape the barrel for every last stack of confusion or bleed I can get this meager loss seemed like a pretty huge thing. I suppose percentage wise it actually is compared to any other class’s condition builds.

I thought about doing a side by side comparison of other profession’s ‘on dodge’ traits but as I watched my ineffectual scepter clones wailing pathetically on that unfazed test golem it occurred to me…What am I doing? Am I really spending my time doing this? Am I really spending my time in a game theorizing, testing and debating game balance and mechanics, doing for free what others are paid to do by the game itself? <<<MINDWRACK>>>

Could anyone having an opinion (one way or another) relating specifically to the perception that the ‘clone death’ builds & traits are too powerful please post your thoughts & findings here:

PvX MESMER Are clone death traits OP?

Since this was the reason given for the Deceptive Evasion nerf I think it’s important to really look into whether this is true or not, especially when proposing alternative solutions like nerfing those specific traits or builds in order to save others.

Could anyone having an opinion (one way or another) relating specifically to the perception that the ‘clone death’ builds & traits are too powerful please post your thoughts & findings here:

PvX MESMER Are clone death traits OP?

Since this was the reason given for the Deceptive Evasion nerf I think it’s important to really look into whether this is true or not, especially when proposing alternative solutions like nerfing those specific traits or builds in order to save others.

Could anyone having an opinion (one way or another) relating specifically to the perception that the ‘clone death’ builds & traits are too powerful please post your thoughts & findings here:

PvX MESMER Are clone death traits OP?

Since this was the reason given for the Deceptive Evasion nerf I think it’s important to really look into whether this is true or not, especially when proposing alternative solutions like nerfing those specific traits or builds in order to save others.

Could anyone having an opinion (one way or another) relating specifically to the perception that the ‘clone death’ builds & traits are too powerful please post your thoughts & findings here:

PvX MESMER Are clone death traits OP?

Since this was the reason given for the Deceptive Evasion nerf I think it’s important to really look into whether this is true or not, especially when proposing alternative solutions like nerfing those specific traits or builds.

How powerful do you feel the 3 ‘on clone death’ traits are when all taken at once and coupled with Deceptive Evasion as it currently functions, and why?

This thread is to get some feedback from the community in response to the recent balance discussion on Twitch, specifically regarding the strength of the ‘on clone death’ traits. The link is below and the relevant section is about 42 minutes in.

Developer Live Stream: Ready Up

The Change: The Mesmer trait Deceptive Evasion will no longer create clones on dodge if there is more than two illusions out.

The Reasoning: The ‘on clone death’ Mesmer traits are too strong when all taken together with Deceptive Evasion.

This is not to discuss the pro’s & con’s and possible ramifications of the proposed change (many threads on that already) but to discuss if you feel the reasons given justifies it or not and explain why.

The ‘on clone death’ Traits:
(all traits activate if illusions are killed or overwritten and are AoE (240 radius)

• Crippling Dissipation – Cripple (3 sec)
• Confusing Combatants -1 stack of Confusion (3 sec)
• Debilitating Dissipation – Apply one random condition
  3 stacks of Bleed (5 sec) or
  3 stacks of Vulnerability (5 sec) or
  Weakeness (3 sec)

For clarity sake I’m re-posting the argument the developers gave when explaining the reasoning behind this change, as best I could. Italics are mine.

• It proc’ed ‘on clone death’ traits
• It disrupted the flow of your clones (no idea what that means)
• It forced you to either ‘cheese it’ (again, no clue what this means) or
• It interrupts your game-play (still no idea what specific type of ‘game-play’ this inhibited, especially since on-clone death & shatter builds make this an integral part of their game-play)
• It feels broken (very subjective, but ok)
• You have your clone, you’re attacking and you’re there and it’s changing all your positioning (???)
• It can replace Phantasms. No it can’t. (Yes it can.)

So the only intelligible argument made to support this change is they feel the ‘on clone death’ traits are too powerful when coupled with Deceptive Evasion. This is why I feel this needs to be a focus of discussion to explore this assertion.

Please try to be as objective as possible and post any specific relevant data (amount of conditions applied to a test golem using only Deceptive Evasion dodges and the traits above, a duel with a friend using just the above mechanics to gauge their relative strengths and ability to be countered, etc.)

Re-posting this since it’s very relevant to this thread.

I had to go back and watch the whole 20 seconds about this on the stream to try to decipher their rational behind the Mesmer trait Deceptive Evasion nerf (42 minutes in btw). This is what I could make out that they didn’t like about Deceptive Evasion:

• It proc’ed ‘on clone death’ traits
• It disrupted the flow of your clones (no idea what that means)
• It forced you to either ‘cheese it’ (again, no clue what this means) or
• It interrupts your game-play (still no idea what specific type of ‘game-play’ this inhibited, especially since on-clone death builds make this an integral part of their game-play)
• It feels broken (very subjective, but ok)
• You have your clone, you’re attacking and you’re there and it’s changing all your positioning (???)
• It can replace Phantasms. No it can’t. (Yes it can.)

So to me the only thing that makes any sense is they feel the ‘on clone death’ traits are too powerful. Why they think this is anyone’s guess as they really didn’t say.

Sorrow.7384:

I made this to clearly explain issues with not being able to replace illusions:

http://imgur.com/a/kryzw

Wow great job! That really does clearly illustrate one of the many negative impacts this unnecessary nerf will have. Thanks for taking the time to do that Sorrow.

I had to go back and watch the whole 20 seconds about this on the stream to try to decipher their rational behind this nerf (42 minutes in btw). This is what I could make out that they didn’t like about the trait:

• It proc’ed ‘on clone death’ traits
• It disrupted the flow of your clones (no idea what that means)
• It forced you to either ‘cheese it’ (again, no clue what this means) or
• It interrupts your game-play (still no idea what specific type of ‘game-play’ this inhibited, especially since on-clone death builds make this an integral part of their game-play)
• It feels broken (very subjective but ok)
• You have your clone, you’re attacking and you’re there and it’s changing all your positioning (???)
• It can replace Phantasms. No it can’t. (Yes it can.)

So to me the only thing that makes any sense is they feel the ‘on clone death’ traits are too powerful. Why they think this is anyone’s guess as they really didn’t say.

I’m sorry but I still don’t see how clone death traits were overpowered in the first place, even when coupled with DE. I mean at most we are talking about applying:

• 1 stack of confusion (3.25 secs)
• 3 stacks of bleed (5.5 secs) 33% chance or
  3 stacks of Vulnerability (5.5 secs) 33% chance or
  Weakness (3.25 secs) 33% chance
• Cripple (3.25 secs)

And this only happens with DE if you sacrifice a dodge and risk overriding a phantasm or more powerful clone in the process.

Were people seriously dying in sPvP (since obviously that is what this nerf is all about) because they just stood dumbfounded next to a clone that exploded 1 stack of confusion and 3 stacks of bleed on them after a dodge? Was anyone calling for a nerf on this because there simply was no counter? Just so…confused about this one.

I just don’t get how this is seen as OP and find the dev’s explanation of the trait and play-style being ‘cheesy’ insufficient and insulting.

Dang, I came here thinking I’d find some fun/viable builds to replace mine that got wiped off the map by the Deceptive Evasion nerf. Guess I’ll keep looking but the pickin’s are getting mighty slim.

Yeah, it’s actually pretty ironic if they are trying to squash PU builds since I’m now finding myself looking at it as the only viable alternative to mine. I find the play-style of phantasm builds boring and shatter specs really hard to control in PvE, especially in large events. I was really enjoying the constant bouncing around exploding clones all over the place with my weird ‘Mesmermancer’. Then the devs casually called it ‘cheesy’ and killed her.

All rabid, all ascended gear too so I need to find another even half-way viable condition build that I enjoy playing. Guess it’s time to watch some PU Mesmer videos…

BlackBeard.2873:

Wasbunny.6531:

I don’t really PvP that much so this is an honest question.

Were players in either sPvP or WvW complaining about how OP on-death traits were when coupled with DE?

…snip…

So was this being seen as a big Mesmer OP issue in PvP land?

Yes, on-death traits combined with prismatic understanding to make a disgusting and rediculous build that was very tanky, put out a ton of damage, and was very hard to fight against. Instead of nerfing pristmatic understanding, I guess they chose deceptive evasion, as it is incredibly good for a master-trait as it is.

Thanks, I sort of suspected they were trying to nerf PU builds. I guess what I don’t understand is aren’t PU builds main strengths the actual Prismatic Understanding trait coupled with the amount of stealthing available?

(honestly asking again) Were the on-death conditions really what was killing people fighting against a PU build? I haven’t played a PU build so I can’t say for sure but I’m full condition damage spec’d and can’t imagine just my on-death traits killing an actual player on their own. Was that really their main source of damage?

Some interesting ideas here. Other mmo’s have healing crits and I was a little surprised that wasn’t present in GW2, although the lack of direct targeted heals might account for that. I honestly don’t understand how you propose boons (wow…almost made a really embarrassing typo hehe) to crit.

I don’t really PvP that much so this is an honest question.

Were players in either sPvP or WvW complaining about how OP on-death traits were when coupled with DE?

To me that nerf seemed to come out of left field and was unwarranted. It was the cornerstone to my own condition build and drops my damage almost in half so maybe I feel a bit stung personally but I just don’t understand why they felt it necessary.

So was this being seen as a big Mesmer OP issue in PvP land?

siralius.9517:

The 10% reduction in dmg for zerker gear will make boss fights longer by about…10%… GG anet

O.k…some math. If all 5 party members have 100% critical chance and if none of the party apply any damaging conditions then yes, mathematically the fight should last 10% longer. But that’s a pretty big if.

To gain a little perspective here; with 50% critical chance and 100% critical damage (reduced to 90% critical damage) the overall DPS is lowered by 2.8%.

That’s reducing the highest physical damage stat combo in the game by 2.8% DPS.

So before anyone starts marching in the streets or throwing away their ascended berserker gear just make sure -2.8% is really worth it.

EDIT: Sorry, I should add too that the 2.8% reduction in DPS is assuming that 100% of your damage is composed of physical damage with no damaging conditions. If for instance 25% of your total DPS is bleeds/burns then the DPS reduction is 0.7%

I’m re-posting from the general thread since it’s more relevant on this specific thread.

I respectfully take offence at having my Mesmer build and play-style called ‘cheesy’ by the devs when they talked about the upcoming changes to Deceptive Evasion.

I’ve always enjoyed a non standard build and play-style with my Mesmer in PvE. As almost in defiance to the idea that Confusion isn’t viable in PvE I built mine entirely around Confusion & other conditions just to prove it wrong.

DE proccing clone death traits on dodge is (was I suppose) the backbone to my build and play-style strategy, and made it just barely viable in PvE with regards to damage output. I also found the play-style interesting, fun and definitely not ‘cheesy’. To me ‘cheesy’ builds rely on passives so heavily that there is no reactiveness left to the play-style, it’s simply auto-pilot, no dynamic trade offs with costs of actions, no positional awareness required…it’s just too easy. I absolutely disagree that this is the case with builds using DE clone death trait proc’s as a large part of their damage such as mine.

A lot needs to be quickly and skillfully considered in a fight if you are using DE as a damage generator. For instance:

• Is the clone that will be overridden in range of the target?
• Should you use one of your dodges just for damage or should you hold off in case you need it to avoid an attack?
• If you have 3 phantasms out is it worth it to sacrifice one for the on-death trait conditions, and which one would be replaced?
• Is it better to follow through with an attack chain (like scepter 1) or interrupt it to dodge?
• Should you dodge and shatter for a needed quick stun when your illusions are away from the target?
• If your target is running but next to a clone, should you dodge in order to cripple them?

Now instead of having my clone on-death traits controlled by my dodge I am forced to use skills like Phase Retreat or Mirror Images just for their clone ‘overriding’ properties, as well as being even more chained to the scepter 1 auto-attack.

My entire play-style was so off-handedly dismissed as ‘cheesy’ and then made so completely impotent by the Deceptive Evasion nerf that it makes me suspect that not a lot of thought or reasoning went into this upcoming change.

EDIT: I just ran some tests in the HotM and my condition applications through DE account for between 1/3 – 1/2 of my total condition output. As a condition Mesmer that’s a lot more than the 10% critical damage reduction others are getting so worked up about.

I respectfully take offence at having my Mesmer build and play-style called ‘cheesy’ by the devs when they talked about the upcoming changes to Deceptive Evasion.

I’ve always enjoyed a non standard build and play-style with my Mesmer in PvE. As almost in defiance to the idea that Confusion isn’t viable in PvE I built mine entirely around Confusion & other conditions just to prove it wrong.

DE proccing clone death traits on dodge is (was I suppose) the backbone to my build and play-style strategy, and made it just barely viable in PvE with regards to damage output. I also found the play-style interesting, fun and definitely not ‘cheesy’. To me ‘cheesy’ builds rely on passives so heavily that there is no reactiveness left to the play-style, it’s simply auto-pilot, no dynamic trade offs with costs of actions, no positional awareness required…it’s just too easy. I absolutely disagree that this is the case with builds using DE clone death trait proc’s as a large part of their damage such as mine.

A lot needs to be quickly and skillfully considered in a fight if you are using DE as a damage generator. For instance:

• Is the clone that will be overridden in range of the target?
• Should you use one of your dodges just for damage or should you hold off in case you need it to avoid an attack?
• If you have 3 phantasms out is it worth it to sacrifice one for the on-death trait conditions, and which one would be replaced?
• Is it better to follow through with an attack chain (like scepter 1) or interrupt it to dodge?
• Should you dodge and shatter for a needed quick stun when your illusions are away from the target?
• If your target is running but next to a clone, should you dodge in order to cripple them?

Now instead of having my clone on-death traits controlled by my dodge I am forced to use skills like Phase Retreat or Mirror Images just for their clone ‘overriding’ properties, as well as being even more chained to the scepter 1 auto-attack.

My entire play-style was so off-handedly dismissed as ‘cheesy’ and then made so completely impotent by the Deceptive Evasion nerf that it makes me suspect that not a lot of thought or reasoning went into this upcoming change.

I have mine bound to dodge. Of course now every time I want to link a wp in chat I do a backflip first.

Just so we’re clear when discussing this, the 10% damage reduction is only for critical damage, not overall dps. I crunched some numbers and with a 50% critical chance and 100% critical damage the overall dps will go down about 2.8% total. If critical chance goes lower this reduction % gets lower as well.

Really a minor change overall, certainly not enough to warrant anyone throwing out their ascended berserker sets just yet.

I was all set to disagree with most of you about how off-putting the ‘unprofessionalism’ of the dev team’s live streams are. And then I watched it. Yikes.

I’ve really enjoyed all the other streams in the past, but this last one (and I think ArenaNet will admit this) was, well…almost insulting. There is a lot of thought, theory crafting, passion and well articulated debating going on in these forums and to have none of that reflected by the devs themselves was really disheartening.

In between the giggling and inside joke banter I heard that some really major changes are in the works (very excited about most of them from what I could understand) but the delivery was so off-hand and cavalier that it made me doubt how much thought went into these radical changes. Really the worst thing you can do when announcing possibly controversial changes is to appear flippant and disinterested while explaining these things to the community. We care a lot about this game and expect ArenaNet to care even more, and to show it.

I’m giving a pass to ArenaNet on this one because I know this is an uncharacteristic misstep and I know how presentations don’t always reflect how hard everyone there is working and how invested and focused they are on the game. So I forgive you ArenaNet, just next time please be more respectful when talking about something we all care so much about.

VOLKON.1290:

There’s a cat that runs around chasing a rat in the north camp areas of the Borderlands maps in WvW.

Did you happen to notice what color and breed the cat was? I seem to remember seeing what looked like a greyish brown tabby in that area. I wonder if it was the same one. I can’t remember if I saw it chasing a rat or possibly a mouse. This warrants further investigation.

I’ll go try to find it and post a screenshot if I do. I can’t recall if I’ve ever seen a pigeon in game but if I come across one I’ll be sure to report back here as well.

Wish me luck.

I was wondering the same thing and found this thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Reflects-power-prec-crit-stats

Seems to indicate that crit chance and crit damage are calculated based on your stats but maybe not power. If I find anything more definitive I’ll post it. Good question btw.

Here’s a recent video made by someone who totally agrees with the OP (as do I).
The Great Meta – Will this be the end of GW2?
For the sake of the game this needs to be addressed and I have confidence ArenaNet is looking at many ways in which to change this ‘skip-n-stack’ from being the optimal way to complete dungeons.

I always like watching cutscenes whether I’ve seen them before or not. I always state this to the group before we start as well as saying I hate skipping, which is usually met with a ’that’s cool, np’ kind of response and then 90% of the time this happens:

I watch the cutscene and after it finishes I find myself alone in the starting room with groupchat messages piling up that just say: ‘RUN RUN RUN!!!!’. I see on my map that the rest of the group is stacked up for the first boss and I’m left to try to run & survive to get back to them on my own.

After enough times of this type of dungeon experience I finally gave up on dungeons altogether. It’s not just you, many others (including ArenaNet) are growing increasingly concerned about this pervasive toxic playstyle & rigid build ‘meta’.

Totally agree. You’re not alone though, here’s someone else who agrees that this toxic play-style threatens to ruin the game and recently uploaded this.

The Great Meta – Will this be the end of GW2?

So refreshing to see a well articulated, positive and constructive thread. Thanks OP!

It’s funny, I’m involved with the same ‘unnamed’ beta weekend as you right now and was involved with the last one as well. After that first weekend it was just so good to get back to GW2, with a fresh set of eyes and an ever increasing appreciation for what ArenaNet has given us with this game.

Yeah those threads would unfortunately be inevitable, but I have seen a lot of interesting speculation going on in the forums about those ‘Do Not Touch’ things as well as the recent little rhyme on the metronome by Scarlet.

I would also assume that one of the conditions of any increase in darkness or weather hazards would be that nothing would be ‘game-breaking’ or make things less fun or dramatically harder for anyone.

Anything new will be hated by some, no question. But for the rest of us I think it’d be amazing.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You know half the forum would be full of “Cantha confirmed”, or “inb4 Scarlet”.

Also, wasn’t that an option for asura starting bio, building a weather machine . . . ?

Hehe yeah, Scarlet would undoubtedly be the prime suspect. How cool would it be if there was some minor comment she makes down the road like “Oh that? No, no…that wasn’t me * giggles *.”

And the Asura, good point…forgot about that. Or maybe the Thaumanova Reactor is somehow connected? So many theories would be flying around, especially if they made the changes gradual and unexplained at first. People start noticing the nights seem a little darker and more sinister, randomly some get caught in unexplained bizarre storms and weather systems. The forums would buzz, speculations would fly.