It’s open through Sept. 30th.
Hooray! And kudos for realizing that leaving the previous fortnights content up for the two weeks of the latest content is a win all round.
It’s probably gone forever. The story will move on today. You had 14 days to complete 4 dailies, and most of them required only about 15 min to complete :/
Wrong. And try not to be so insensitive to people who have this issue. They may have valid reasons for not completing the content at this stage.
Not really, since Ebonhawke is a Krytan Outpost, with people from Kryta living there.
Nooooot really.
Thanks very much, Vahkris!
I can’t really compare movies to this video game sense GW2 is constantly changing, growing, but on a supply/demand topic, I found it relevant.
You are right, its probably not the best comparison for precisely the reason we both stated, mmos are never really finished but there is one distinction I wanted to make which applies to both and that is the difference between the reason for creating something and the creation of that thing itself.
Definitely the reason something gets made or funded is based on supply and demand, but that is separate from the actual creation of the thing itself. The Avengers movie came about entirely because some companies saw the possibility of a massive profit from it but the people actually making the movie were not the fans from which the money would come, but professionals, and they made their own creative decisions on it. In that sense there is a massive advantage for things like movies and traditional games which people dont really get to see until they are finished. To be honest I dont really know what the solution for mmos is.
Amazingly the MMO fanbase has grown beyond its roots. It used to be a very core group of players who all wanted to take gaming to the next level. It has now left that audience and welcomed itself to casual players, moms, kids, etc. The MMO Genre is now essentially being divided into two different genres (imo). High fantasy, challenging, medieval, where raids, dungeons, gear grinding, etc is what players want, to cosmetics, casual events, mini games, gear cap. Two different styles for two different fanbases. Unfortunately I think GW2 is being caught in the middle, being pulled from both sides (Hey, join the “darkside”- serious, no no join the “good side-casual”).
They are definitely trying to appease both crowds but eventually the game takes its course, and not everyone will be happy. Part of the reason you see huge uproars from GW1 folks (including some griefs from myself).
I think this is a pretty much accurate assessment of the current situation except that I am not sure it is quite so simple as casual vs hardcore. For example by history and hobby I am definitely in the hardcore camp even though the amount of hours I put into the game is comparable to most casuals.
Its probably a dilemma facing all mmos these days though in that the hardcore market, which previously was the entirety of the market, is dwindling but the casual market is not very loyal. And they do generally both want very different things. Which is why I think any mmo developer really needs to innovate above everything else if they want to have a significant number of players from either group. There is no good solution among any of the existing systems.
Personally I think the game is going to continue on the trend on which its going, more mini-games, shiny cosmetics, casual environment. No big deal really, but it will loose my attention going forward if what I say goes true. One good thing about this (well, maybe) is the point of Gaming itself is now becoming a bigger market, now more and more people are growing up around games, and even looking back to the kids growing up in the 80s, are now adults with kids, careers,etc. The market is far from the hardcore group it used to be.
Again, I think you are pretty spot on, and probably right about the future of the game. If it does go in that direction it will lose my attention too, I suspect. Its amusing though that the people who dislike this content seem to be getting labeled as a vocal minority of very casual players, which is not only a contradiction in terms but also probably just plain wrong.
Having said that I still dont understand the logic behind the nature of this content because it seems to me that it is not suited to either casuals or hardcore. The nature of the new additions – themeparks, minigames, minatures, festivals and so on is aimed very much at casuals but if it is for casuals why make it temporary? Casuals by nature will miss certain times and not play very much the rest of the time, making it hard for them to participate fully. And if it is content for hardcore players why is it generally so easy and simple, and safe feeling without any of the effort, energy, community building, raiding and epic fantasy that would satisfy that group?
In trying to please both groups they are creating content which is unsuited for either, really. Which is why I say I feel that they have muddled thinking, and that it would be helpful for them to take a step back from the yammering of the community (on both sides) and consider the game more objectively, from their own point of view.
@Antara, Sorry Im getting very wordy here. I have thought of a way to be more concise. You say that the only reason something sells is because people want it. This, I agree with. But I ask you what is the reason why people want something? I promise you it is not just because they first asked for it.
I didn’t mean it as they are not the decision makers, but the overall wish of the genre should be what decides what goes into a product. It’s nothing against their hard work or efforts, this is a business, and like any other, supply and demand is very prevalent. They make the goods, we buy the goods. I’m their client, not their employee, so I see them as the overseers’ of the product I purchased. I give them feedback and recommendations of what I feel could be improved.
Many, many movies cost big bucks, but if the movie is a bust, it’s a bust. In the end all their hard work and visions rely on what the fanbase wants. Nothing against anyone.
Im enjoying our discussion very much, thank you! Its more interesting than the other one about who likes this update and who doesnt. I take your point about market forces, but I think you give far too much power to the consumers in the process of design. Did (to pick a random example) the movie Titanic make so much money because James Cameron made something people wanted to see? Or did he make a very good movie which, as a result, made lots of people want to go and see it? I find it difficult to believe that the movie goers who paid their money to make that movie so lucrative for all involved had a lot to do with the writing of the script and the directing and the acting and so on. And while there are some quite bad movies that make a lot of money, and some very good ones that dont make very much, generally speaking terrible movies bomb. And generally the terrible movies are those which have been made for the audience, for the sole purpose of making money, rather then for some other, better purpose. That new Lone Ranger movie is a perfect example.
Its a bit different with MMOs since, especially with the way Anet are doing it, they are essentially unfinished at launch. Its almost like the parts of the game designed before launch are the developers bit and then everything after the launch gets designed by the community. Which is actually a very interesting concept to build a game around, thought it lends itself far more towards an open world emerging gameplay type of mmo rather than the themepark GW2 is increasingly becoming (themepark is not meant as a slur here).
Since GW2 was not built on this idea, however, I still think too much community participation in the design process is a bad thing if you are trying to make a good game. Especially in GW2s current situation where the pre and post release content are really starting to drift a very long way apart.
Consider the end result of your scenario. Anet chooses one of the 50% and listens to them more or less exclusively when creating new content. They lose half their playerbase as a result. Do you think that will be good for profits? I think they have to be smarter than that, and convince us to follow their lead.
edit – Do you really not think that a designer or developer has any power to convince people to do something? To change their actions through genuine skill and vision? The only reason I play GW2 at all is because back before the betas when they were talking a lot about their ideas for game design and mmos, when the manifesto was going around all the news sites and generating a lot of interest, Anet convinced me that they had the ability to create a different, and better mmo than any previously. I think in a lot of ways they have succeeded and succeeded not only in spite of but specifically because they did not try to create a wow clone, which would be the logical choice if giving the mmo fanbase exactly what they ask for was the best choice. I hope that they get the chance to keep improving that vision because it would be a shame to see some other mmo pull a Steve Jobs on them and take all the credit, and the cash, for making their brilliant ideas really work.
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I look at ArenaNet as the overseers’ of the game, more so than the ones who decide what to do. Granted, a lot of background politics plays a role, but ultimately it’s about what sells, and the only reason something sells, is because people want it.
So if they cut out the players, or move players comments/feedbacks to the backburner, then they could shift the game in a direction and not know players are very unhappy about it, leading to a “point of no return” where the game looses its majority and is shutdown or bought out.
Now I’m not saying that the developers as individuals shouldn’t have any say so, because they are part of the players as well.
I did not mean to imply (and certainly did not say) that they should cut out player feedback, or consider it unimportant in any way but they have to analyze it and judge it far better than I feel there is any evidence of their doing at the moment. They have to use it to further their vision by finding solutions to player problems that also convince players of their way of doing things. They have to be leaders, not followers.
You say you see the devs as more overseers than decision makers, I have to say (and Im sure you didn’t mean it as such at all but still) that I feel this is incredibly insulting to the devs. They conceived and crafted this game, painstakingly, over many years. Every piece of artwork, every bit of lore, all of the concepts, code and pixels owe existence to them. They are the creators. Can you name one great game, or movie, or song, or painting or building or sculpture or any piece of art at all that has come about without a large amount of creative freedom for the artist? And do you think so little of Anet that if they made the best game they could make it would not be popular?
A good designer will make what the client asks for, to a very high standard, and the client will be happy but a great designer will give the client not necessarily what they asked for but what they actually wanted and needed all along. A car, not a faster horse. An ipod, not a walkman. I think Anet could be great designers but they have to want to do that more than they want to keep players in the game (not that they should not want that as well but it is a matter of priorities). If Anet just want to make a game which keeps making money as long as possible, well, thats a much easier goal I think.
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Vocal minority from very casual players. ArenaNet, this is the best update I’ve played from you all and I’m having a blast, as well as my guild and family. I haven’t heard any complaints from Jade Quarry (other than the Liadri is so hard comments.. by the way, you could make her red circles more visual..), so keep it up.
Please read the thread more carefully before making comments which contribute very little, except to let people who disagree with you feel insulted.
@Antara, I also think Anet are very good at listening to the community, which is why I worry that they are too good at it, so to speak. Every complaint or problem or idea raised by the community has to be subjected to critical analysis by the devs to determine firstly how genuinely valid it is, and secondly how best to solve the issue while remaining true to the designers own beliefs and vision for the best game they can make. I fear that because of time constraints Anet tends to rush for the first solution to present itself in an effort to keep people happy, which has muddled their thinking when it comes to the design of their own game.
I know it isnt easy, its probably the hardest thing for a designer of anything to do but like I said, there are many things in the the original release of GWII that indicate Anet can do it. You talk about the community being split 50/50 and how it is interesting which way it will go. What about what Anets devs think? Do they not get a say anymore? Personally I dont care at all about what the community wants, and I include myself in that. I want to see the game that anet wants to make and I am speaking up only because I feel that the one they are currently making is not that game.
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@Antara, The point I was trying to make with my post was that because it is impossible to please everyone they should stop trying to quite so much and return to their own vision of GW2, rather than pandering to the collective us. They are the designers after all. We can see so much of their ability in GW2 but it feels like they have lost self confidence, or become confused as to the path forward. I mean, I know it doesnt help that mmo players by nature are hidebound, timid creatures but I really do believe if anet had stuck with their vision as seen in the manifesto and the game at launch not only would it be more popular than now, it would be significantly better too.
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But in the mean time, please keep telling us what you’re thinking. We are listening. Not only to what you’re saying but also to what you’re not. The very first living world team actually did the thing some of you have called for. Some 40 or so permanent events were added around the game in our very first content update. They were met with little interest or fanfare. Granted, Halloween may have stolen the show. But those events are still in the game today. I’ve seen very little reaction to them, however, positive or negative. Despite this, there are many events I would still like to add. Many zones and bosses I would love to revisit. As we get better at the living world, I strongly suspect we’ll have room to get around to them as well. Assuming that’s what our players really want. You are all the second half of the collaborative process, so thanks for helping!
Just on this particular element of the game and on the topic of design in general I really want to speak directly to the devs. What you say, Anthony, seems to indicate that refining or adding to existing open world zones, particularly in terms of dynamic events, has been sidelined because of a lack of reaction from the community. I certainly hope that this is not the case.
I know that you listen to the community a lot, something we all appreciate, and take a lot of usage data to try to determine how to make the game better fulfill the demands of your players. I do worry though that you might be taking this information too much at face value when creating new content for the game. First and foremost you are the game designers, not us. When we look at things like the manifesto or even the state of the game at release there is a very strong and clear design philosophy evident in the way things were put together that is very much lacking in the living world releases and while the quality of the content and its delivery is definitely improving that clarity of design and vision of what an mmo should be has been lost, and I think it is because you are listening too much to us, and not following your own beliefs and ideas enough.
FWIW I am a big fan of the whole concept of DE and I am sad that you seem to have given up on them so easily. The game needs more, a lot more, of them in the open world zones. Events that change with the seasons, events that spawn based on the decisions participating players have made in the personal story, events that start in cities and lead players out into the world, temporary events, event chains that unfold over weeks rather than a few hours, events with combat, with jumping puzzles, with crafting, with exploration, events that move from zone to zone, event chains that span across an entire region. When you get to a certain density of events that a player can go to a zone once a week and be sure to see something new, that they didn’t experience before, then I think you will find people really start to appreciate your intentions in designing that system into the game.
But you have to believe in your ideas, and that you have the ability to not only make them work but also convince us that they are better than the alternatives. This belief was evident in the game at release, but all I see in the latest content updates is confused thinking. Well intentioned, and appreciated, but in my opinion the game was much better designed at launch then it is now, flaws and all.
Henry Ford allegedly said (and it definitely contains truth whether he said it or not) that if he asked people what they wanted they would have asked him for faster horses. No matter how fast the horses we ask you for are please keep believing in that car thing you were working on for so long before the game released. We will thank you for it in the end.
I just saw an excellent solution for this actually. The daily and monthly achievements have an hourly countdown on them in the interface showing how much time is left to do them. Add one of those to all the temporary achievements and problem solved.
It’s not ideal, but I find this complaint really petty actually.
You wouldn’t if it had affected you personally. Everything is petty until you care about it. Small =/ petty, and this sort of situation would be really easy for anet to avoid in the future.
The 6 hour patch started at midnight on the end of the 5th, server time. At no point on the 6th was the old content playable. Compared to previous patches, which have always occurred at the end of the day referenced this was 24 hours earlier than precedence would lead people to expect. 24 hours is a day.
Its not about what time of the day they do their 6 hour update. As long as they are consistent and make sure everyone knows exactly when what content will be available. The time of the patch, while inconvenient, is a separate issue to the fact that after it there was a lot of stuff we couldn’t do anymore despite it still being the 6th for many more hours.
The 5 hour maintenance caught me by surprise too, but I generally agree with lordkrall. Try and get all your achievements done as early as possible to avoid unpleasant surprises. I usually try to blaze through the achievements by the first week if at all possible.
That said, I’m not unsympathetic to the people who, for whatever reason, didn’t get the time to get it done early. (Away on business trips, family issues, whatever.) The maintenance probably could have been scheduled at a better time.
As long as they are consistent and accurate with their updates its no problem. It was not the case this time which has annoyed those of us who missed out on some things we had planned for as a result. I also usually go through all the achievements I want as soon as possible but it was not an option I had this time. Try to understand that people planning ahead and anet providing accurate and consistent information about their patch times are not mutually exclusive events, that is to say, it is possible for there to be fault on both sides.
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People should simply learn to assume that you might not be able to finish up stuff the same day as said stuff is stated to leave the game.
Except that you have been able to with every single previous patch. They all finished at the END of the day. This patch was different. Thats why people have been thrown. Certainly I wont make the mistake of trusting Anet again, you are right, but I will still be annoyed about it now.
And the content did end on the 5th. According to support.guildwars2.com Server maintenance started at midnight and when it was finished the new patch was active. At no point on the 6th was any of the previous content available unless you are in a timezone ahead of server time.
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Anet have taken the 3-4 times a year festivals of GW1, which everyone thought were nice fun diversions, completely misunderstood the nature of the affection for them, and made them into the entire game. If I didnt have good friends in GW2 that I like to use it to catch up with I would stop playing out of sheer disgust.
This is why you shouldn’t leave things until the very last second.
We also got information yesterday about todays downtime and it was quite logical to assume that the patch might be live after said downtime.
Given Ive only had the last 2 days to play I didnt have much choice… The point is there was very little advanced warning that this would happen a day earlier than previous updates, which have always happened at the END of the day referred to as the patch day. Had I known this content actually ended on the 5th, not the 6th, I might have been able to finish everything I wanted to do.
Essentially this patch dropped a day early and shut off a lot of content for anyone completing it at the last minute. Given how all previous temp content has been available until the end of the day of the patch to suddenly switch it to the beginning of the day has messed up a lot of people. Choose one or the other, stick to it and make it clear please. Especially when it comes to content and rewards that will never be available again. Feeling very shortchanged.
I am in the same situation. If you say content ends on the 6th then give us until the end of the 6th to do it. Thats what you did for all previous patches and now all of a sudden everything ends a day early. I voted most for Kiel but dont even have the mini to show for it. I logged on today to do the last 2 achievements I needed for it only to discover that it will never, ever be possible for me now. Very annoyed.
Most people in the start zone boss zergs are lvl 80s farming rares. Its a separate, but very pertinent issue.
I would also very much like it to be the case that there were some sort of lore/story significance to these sort of events. I dont hold out a lot of hope that it will be the case though. I generally really like getting into character in RPGs but I just cant manage it in MMOs. The world is too artificially constructed, the characters generally paper thin and the logic behind things too clearly dictated by the meta, rather than in game factors. This isnt Anets fault though, if anything we the players are to blame with our joke names, insistence of sprinting through the content and refusing to sit for 2 minutes to read a bit of story or watch a cutscene.
Whenever I wander through a place in a deserted zone like Ebonhawke and notice all the little characterful touches and obvious care and attention that went into designing it I really feel sorry for the devs. Is it any wonder they make a stream of shallow, pointless minigames when we ignore their attempts to create something deeper?
Not on the forums, no. If Anet wants to write some actual characters and give them actual views like the OP describes that would be great, I would probably be one of the few who actually reads them but they are just cardboard cutouts atm with a few lines and the barest hint of character. Anet would have to write their butts off if they want people to actually vote in character.
Having said that the OPs request is reasonable and something I would actually like to see, and my snarky response was inappropriate, so I apologize. The braying #vote kiel/#vote Evon rubbish is already seriously getting on my nerves, Im probably going to play the next two weeks with map chat turned off to avoid it but thats no reason to take it out on somebody who is getting into it.
They arent real people…
Hooray for being insulting and arrogant!
…
There is no reason why it cant be both in the game and on the website.
Just throwing this out there but not every anet employee is a game dev. Could have been an artist or accountant or the guy who refills the coffee machine in the canteen. Bit unfair to hold them to a better understanding of the game when you dont know who they are.
Nobody said there wasn’t a story. I specifically stated that there is, just that imo it isn’t very good (something Woodenpotatos agrees with me on, btw).
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No, we cant. No dev has stated or indicated that this will be the case.
We can’t assume. We can, however, hope that they won’t tease us with two and only ever deliver one.
Oh, totally agree. Thats why Ive been carefully watching what the devs are saying for the last few days. No indication yet though, and even if there was they could always change their minds down the track too.
Can’t we assume that the “losing” Fractal will still end up in the game, just delayed by a few months since the dev teams will be focusing on the “winner” instead?
No, we cant. No dev has stated or indicated that this will be the case.
In other words, we have no way to know who will win. So your prediction of Kiel winning is just as unfounded as his of Evon winning.
Its still fun though. Personally I think Evon will win because even if you have never of Abaddon before as soon as Anet releases any information about that dungeon the reactor one will need something really special to compete. Its just a far more interesting concept.
It would be nice if the show was a little more interesting. Remember when we were fighting Dragons? I hear there are more of them floating around somewhere…
Remember the general reaction to the fight against Zhaitan? :P
Thats an issue with game design and mechanics, not story, which is what we are talking about here.
@Jemmi, You are quite right, I do not know what will be released but I have made my prediction and in a few weeks we will see how accurate it is. Keep up the optimism!
I would put that note up the top of the post, in bold, to make people more aware that it is a logical supposition, not confirmed by anet. Lot of people may not read to the bottom of the post.
Its been a year, man. Guild Wars Factions was released approximately a year after the original came out.
There will be 3 more releases before the 1 year mark hits. Who knows what 2 of those releases hold.
My guess is a variety of minigames and cosmetic back pieces/weapons. To make a story anything like the original personal story (and whatever the flaws with that are at least it is epic) with the 2 week living content cycle is gonna need a while to build up and add the required amount of content, its not gonna happen in the next few releases.
Thats my point, there is practically no indication that this story is going anywhere towards some sort of relationship with the personal story/dungeons stuff of the original release (I say practically because there are some very well buried hints, go look up what the sky crystals in the latest release actually are if you are curious) but I would be very surprised if any upcoming releases have anything genuinely heroic or epic for players to do.
Especially considering it seems that the next release consists of 3 mini games and participation in what amounts to a rigged election. Im not against the concept of optimism but this half yearly blog thing thats going to outline their plans for future content releases better be kitten amazing.
Anet have moved away from putting new stuff in the BL chests since Wintersday, all the temp skins have arrived via other methods. I wouldn’t bet on hoarded keys being a good investment, personally (conditional on how much of a discount will be offered, but I seriously doubt it will be worth it).
Because mystic knights totally suited the Arthurian themes of the Sylvari, who were my favourite race at launch. It helps that they have turned out to be one of the most balanced and useful classes in the game as well.
Seriously?
Why can’t people understand that as players, we do not want what they’re getting!. If we were the ones that attained godhood, the game would be over. Nothing more to do. If we were the ones that led the Pact, the chara would be so busy leading we’d get to do nothing. If we were the ones that were being pushed for Captain’s Council, we’d be embroiled in internal politics and stuff and not get to have fun.
We don’t want that stuff. We want to play the game. Those charas are made to take those roles as, as a player, those rewards are not rewards at all.
This is a very good point and can be added to the one that regardless of which character you like/dislike (and they are both pretty bland) what we are actually voting for is which fractal we want. And it seems to be that one of those fractals is about a gazillion times more interesting than the other one.
That seals it then. The reactor one will need to have Mursaat, Glint, Canthans, Palawa Joko and Prince Rurik in it if anyone at all is going to vote for it.
Not impossible, but people are lazy to do that (running from bottom to top and waste 1s,60c (lvl 80) for getting to bottom again (if you want to run it a bit faster)). In addition, in first day this event is a “large area” event (meaning in first day, the requirement to finish this quest if only if every player bring the supply from bottom to top >>> which is why Anet nerf this event).
You can jump straight off the top from where you deliver the supplies to and land in the water directly next to the boat at the start. Sure this is by design.
By offer, you mean offer a very small chance. How many very small chances are you planning to purchase in the 4 weeks it applies? Not forgetting we dont know how much of a discounted price it is, aside from the temporary event skins (which seem to now have all been moved into other rng chests) I have never seen anything in Black Lion chests I would describe as much sought after, and definitely nothing worth spending real money on.
To each their own, but it seems a paltry and marginal offer at best (as is the cheaper waypoints for that matter). The only interesting distinction between what the candidates offer is the fractals.
Its been a year, man. Guild Wars Factions was released approximately a year after the original came out.
Everyone does realize that if Keil wins, the Cheaper Waypoints is only temporary, right?
So are the key discounts.
What much sort after items do Black Lion Keys give you access to?
Silly me, I thought this thread was going to be about how Evon cant loose because there is no way the majority of people will choose a fractal about a pretty bland reactor thing over one about Abaddon. And thats all the election is about, since every other thing the candidates offer is either the same or temporary and of marginal significance.
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It would be nice if the show was a little more interesting. Remember when we were fighting Dragons? I hear there are more of them floating around somewhere…
CM is quite easy, once you know what to do. Its a nightmare the first time, though.
Can also camp out at the top of the Sylvari starter zone for the other suspect. The only annoying one to do is the ascalon one.
“Precursor for achievement points… lol ruins the prestige. People just want easy legendaries. These posts are getting tiring.”
“Bought 9 rare Shortbows. First 4 i throw in. The Lover. Thank you Zomorros and the RNG gods.”
What you did is the definition of easy. Lucky also, but pathetically easy.