Guild Wars 2

the fact that 4 people couldnt do anything to you just means they were horrible. honestly, thief may have some balance issues but they are not THAT unbalanced.

double axe glass cannon does its damage thru very many hits in succession not one large hit. so again, comparing DPH is a innacurate model.

but further we cannot use the glass cannon backstab spec people are using as a benchmark regardless as its unbalanced and people know it.

ive also played condition double dagger, i dont like it, too one dimensional, i enjoy Dagger mainhand for its high single target damage and pistol offhand for group harrassment.

first, nerfing heartseeker? it recieved a 20% damage nerf and a threshold nerf, i dont even use it for damage anymore if a target is below 25% hp i can autoattack them down faster, especially in a gruop setting

second, nerfing backstab would in fact ruin non glass cannon dagger mainhand builds

as for the rest of your post, its called homoginization, only way your gonna get it is by making everyone the same. certain classes will ALWAYS be better at certain things, because there is no way to achieve perfect balance.

imo a 2hander should do more damage thena onehand and shield, but a hammer, with all that control, shouldnt do as much damage as a others.

1. other invisible classes? guess what if i a mesmer turns invisible, ist stealth, it works the same way. your splitting hairs at this point, call it what you want.

2. I am the OP, and yes majority of players do suck, and the glass cannon backstab build is probably the worst build in the game in terms of providing for your team anything other then a kill once every min or so. the stealth (or as you say, enemy rendering whatever) being bugged and palyers in general sucking make it seem less fragile then it is. but nobody should be able to do that kind of damage in such a short span of time even if its avoidable.

3. ive said the same thing, look at it how you want, both sides are true, adn i even said that once you get past that it allows for great flexibility, i think your jumping down my thraot like i want thieves nerfed into the ground, i dont, im a thief player, i want rational and unbiased view on the thief in pvp.

4. true

5. actually a lot of forum whiners still complain about it, sad to hear i know

and even if everything is addressed, im sure people will still be wanting thieves nerfed.

Sky.9347:

Wolfe.3097:

Sky.9347:

Teknobug.3782:

Dabu.1258:

I cant understand or how to survive against Thief, ANet try to nerf it, but doesn’t work…

http://imageshack.us/a/img823/6254/gw040v.jpg (Damage)
http://imageshack.us/a/img411/7370/gw041kp.jpg (My Stats)

Really Toughness do something? or is a useless stat?

Toughness does help, but sometimes not enough, someone I know had about 900 toughness and said he took 16K damage from a hit, if he had 1600 toughness, he’d probably take 6-7K instead of 16K.

I think that 150% damage boost plus extra critical damage mods got you that 12K CnD.

And the stacks of might from popping signets.

is might stacking itself an issue tho? i mean, many classes can stack as much or more stacks of might. the game is designed with boon stacking, are thieves meant not to be able to do that as well? asking seriously here

I think might stacking in addition to the numerous other modifiers is a problem.

Personally, I don’t want to see the thief lose the ability to backstab for nasty amounts of health. I like the Assassin Signet, and backstab, and the reliance on stealth for defense. In this specific case – I think the 5-15 stacks of might could be the primary issue.

Honestly though, changing any one part of this build should bring it back down to a reasonable burst without changing the style. My impression is that the best way to do this would be through the might on signet trait – but I do not have any data to back that up.

yet other classes can get as much as 25 stacks of might. thats why im wondering if us being able to stack might is really an issue.

i do think assassins signet could be an issue tho.

either way im sure anet will just nerf the base damage of backstab

there is a rendering issue, i do have a warrior tho i havent pvpd with him yet :P, i mainly play thief

Sky.9347:

Teknobug.3782:

Dabu.1258:

I cant understand or how to survive against Thief, ANet try to nerf it, but doesn’t work…

http://imageshack.us/a/img823/6254/gw040v.jpg (Damage)
http://imageshack.us/a/img411/7370/gw041kp.jpg (My Stats)

Really Toughness do something? or is a useless stat?

Toughness does help, but sometimes not enough, someone I know had about 900 toughness and said he took 16K damage from a hit, if he had 1600 toughness, he’d probably take 6-7K instead of 16K.

I think that 150% damage boost plus extra critical damage mods got you that 12K CnD.

And the stacks of might from popping signets.

is might stacking itself an issue tho? i mean, many classes can stack as much or more stacks of might. the game is designed with boon stacking, are thieves meant not to be able to do that as well? asking seriously here

Sorry, but counting the number of constraints on its use doesn’t really change anything does it? It is easy to apply. None of us has much trouble applying it.

Once you are in stealth with basilisk venom applied you just position and go for it. If you miss you can even take another swipe. Sometimes the vagueries of the fight will mean your target is no longer in the right position, but even then it does pretty decent damage.

sorry i dont use basilisk, and i agree id be ok with a failed backstab unstealthing us. but it doesnt change the fact that compared to any other skill in the game, its harder to land, regardless of it being easy.

and you know what, outside of the cheese that is precast CnD>steal>backstab, BS is entirely avoidable. Ive played against actually good players who dont stand there adn let you stab them in the back, they move.

but i agree its easy to land on people who dont try to avoid it at all, even when they see me go into stealth.

im been as unbiased as possible.

stealth is bugged and needs fixing, it gives a unfair advantage to the thief

the glass cannon backstab build is stupid and needs fixed via its skills and traits, not backstab itself

the class is too easy to spam, tho if you take the time to get past that it has great flexibility

pistol whip was an issue but imo they went about it the wrong way further lessening its usefulness in pve

HS nerf, needed or not i dunno, many times i choose to autoattack at 25% instead of using HS cuz the opponent will die faster.

no what i defend is against raging hyperbole where the player doesnt want reason, constructive critisiscm, or explanation, they want a nerf 6 feet under so they can go back to there pure dps builds and tunnel vision.

all i want is for them to make a post in regards to how they are feeling about thieves, what abilities they are looking at, what they think of them, how they are going to buff/nerf/fix them, etc.

i want this so instead of people complaining about thieves, i can throw that post at there faces adn they can see whats coming and be thankful, and/or whine how its unfair.

im getting sick and tired of trying to defend the profession of my choice simply cuz so many people refuse to use defensive traits/skills, refuse to interrupt casts, refuse to apply any form of critical thinking to a sitaution other then tunneling there current target, and come here adn cry about things.

Cribbage.2056:

As a thief, I have two problems with backstab:

1) It does too much damage for a skill that is so easily applied. I don’t like it when my class has game balance affecting skills like this because I like to earn my victories.

2) As an OP skill it has become the centre piece for the lame defacto build of lazy thieves everywhere.

Nerfing BS would make us play better and be more creative with our builds. Both good things.

lets see

easy to apply?

it is the ONLY thief skill in the game that has a requirement to use it, then a requirement for it to do good damage. stealth and being behind target respectively.

you wanna make it harder to apply remove the ability to precast then steal, tho this wont make any difference to the players that stand there and let me hit them in the back.

im not against making a failed backstab break steatlh tho

Kanenas.4906:

I think the solution would be to give back stab an 0.5 or 1 second casting time. If someone stays immobile, not using his stun br. or does not do something (blind, dodge etc..) for 1 second after have seen that the thief goes to stealth and hits him with CnD or steal, then he deserves to go down.

if we give it a cast time i want the positional requirement removed

warriors will vehemently defend that they are OP

so will thieves

difference is

wait…no real difference.

nerf warriors lol

still reads as bad link

imo sigils are not needed for D/P tho the /P is about group interference and support, pick skills that support that imo. tho also imo shadowstep is required by almost any build >.<

Manji.3801:

One cannot fight what he does not see….

No, not an overall DMG Nerf, that would be insane, and I don’t want Thief to never be played again!

I think they need to rework stealth, so you’re instantly out…
I think also they need to make the “debuff” after stealth longer (like 5sek)…

5 seconds is too long, i could see 3.5-4 (it lasts 3 seconds atm, it just doesnt feel like it cuz of the rendering issue.)

stealth doesnt need a re-work, it needs a fix, right now its bugged so we are not instantly rendered out of stealth, we need to be.

Manji.3801:

@ Wolfe: Don’t missunderstand me, … I took Hammer as an Example for DMG per Skill!

Hammer might be not the “DPS” Tree, but it does have the hardest Hiting “Single” Moves, that means “biggest” Krit per Hit (hope i can make myself understandable)

and i said in my post that comparing like that isnt effective let alone reflective of balance. you cant just compare your hardest hitting ability with another and go hey nerf that it does more then mine!

So ok, even with Greatsword you cannot press 1 and Hit like 6-8 k Krits (EDIT here)! Not even with Axes (which is in fact the MOST Dps Weapon)

once again your not getting what i typed up for you, im not talking about this

And you don’t need to tell me that how I should play my warrior, this was just an example of pure dps… Ofc I take “Def” Skills for War, but funny fact, as a “Glasscannon” Thief I don’t need “Def” Skills… I do have 2 Stealths, and the “Get over here!”-Skorpion Wire … Heck i don’t even use the Ultimate as often as it would be possible, because …. no need!

i wasnt telling you how, you just left too much open to have a real debate. and it wasnt a example of pure dps, it was a example of pure DPH which is a innacurate measure for balance in this situation. yes a glass cannon thief has something that other glass cannons dont, thats steatlh. however stealth is bugged and is therefore not a accurate measure of there actual survivability, lets wait for that to get fixed (im hoping soon)

And don’t tell me that I as a Warrior need to Push 1 CD! …

uhm…why do i feel like some people fail at reading comprehension, i wasnt telling you how to play, i simply said in order for you to do your damage with your hammer you just have to hit a button, there is no pre-requirement like using initiative/Cd to go into stealth, no positional requirement for hte damage, etc. you just hit a button.

Letz take the “OP” 100B Warrior Build, which is not Op – as experienced players will know -

pot, meet kettle, oh wait kettle is thieves so must be a mistake

I need to Bullcharge, Frenzy and 100B to get some Dmg done… and therefore I need 2/3 Utilities…

sounds like pistol whip thieves, oh wait…they got nerfed, again, pot meet kettle

Anyways, even with Frenzy and Offhand Axe Whirl I don’t do the DMG that the Thief does when stealing the whirl from the warriors … just sayn, i destroyed 3 people with that kitt yesterday, …. —this i don’t know, why i could use it twice inbetween a few seconds --

anet said they are gonna nerf the whirlwind axe thieves steal from warriors, so this is entirely pointless to bring up

Honest: I don’t even care if they get nerfed or not… For my Warrior, Thief ain’t SUCH a problem at all… I can eat their Burst, and kill them afterwards with less than 10% HP,… but when playing as mage, engineer or nekro it’s hell on earth!

i can see elemental and necro having trouble, but a properly played engineer shouldnt.

besides ive said a million times on this forum already, that specific backstab build needs nerfed, the the nerf needs to be on things like assassins signet, and some specific traits, not on backstab itself, that will just hurt all the playres who arent cheesing the game.

on a side note, i honestly dont like mug, as its “free” damage as in, you cant avoid it really.

@ Wolfe: You have extremly High DMG, awesome Mobility, Stealth (which is kinda enough to be “the class difining” skills, cause you know ….. Stealth Rezz/Finisher can win the game)….. I think if the dmg is toned down to lets say 75% it would be ok, i think!

what you and i think is good for spitballing but it comes down to anet, they said it was damage and mobility, take it up with them.

and LOL!?!! You just said it… " 3k-5k tops with group buffs is what ive seen. "
ARE YOU INSANE?! I do 3k-not even 4ks with FULL Power&Percision HAMMER Warrior on “non Plate”… so just GTFO with your “Thiefs R Fine” when you tell me you hit 6-8k!!!

so your complaining that when speccing full power and precision while using your control 2hander your not doing as much damage as a class that anet said is about damage?

First…its your hammer, its not your dps wepaon, its your control weapon, thieve dont really get those archetypes with there weapon choices either.

second…i wasnt aware all classes were supposed to do the same damage, according to you they are, or at least nobody should do more damage then your hammer warrior.

third…what does it require you to do that damage? hit a Cd? i have to go into stealth, and get behind the target in melee range, i dont have the steal>cnd>backstab cheese, when i go into stealth, you see me go into stealth, if you give me your back, you deserve to feel pain ingame.

not to mention some classes do there damage in different ways, some in large single hits, tohers in many consecutive fast attacks. it is not accurate to complain about how much damage a single ability does…especially backstab cuz of stealths unique mechanics.

To get into stealth i have to either lay down black powder, then leap with heartseeker to gain stealth, get to your back or

use my cast time heal or

shadow refuge

only 1 of those 3 is not a waist of a skill considering the heal and shadow refuges obvious utility outside of merely gaining me stealth.

so i get the backstab, your a hammer warrior, i might get 4-5k if im lucky depending on your defenses (you did say your full power/crit, no defense take it)…now im out of stealth and cannot reenter stealth for 3 seconds. however i can:

autoattack, and i will

use heartseeker, i wont, above 25% im better off autoattacking in terms of damage pressure

use a utility skill, i may depending on the situation

woot 3 seconds is up, now i have to take the time the animations require to black powder, heart seeker and maneuver behind you for a backstab again

essentially a backstab is a largely frontloaded 5 second duration, before i can do it again.

but yes, the thieves most offesensive mainhand weapon (dagger) when geared for power/crit shouldnt do more damage then a warriors control 2hander when geared for the same.

NOONE hits 6-8K Krits besides the Thief… and that IS a problem![/quote]

one of our defining factors is our damage and mobility, this is according to anet, so until they re-evaluate that, outside of the specific glass cannon build no thieves are not “too strong”

in that regard guaridans are too strong! they can take too many hits and keep on going! nobody can take as many hits as a defensive guardian!

now if anet does change that, then im fine, but until then, thieves should keep there burst.

now if you want to talk about reducing burst in smaller amounts cuz you belive its too high, but keeping it high relative to other classes then sure…lets talk

by not hitting a deatblossoming thief i think hopeless means dont hit him while hes performing the attack, as it has evasion frames.

the build has been around for a while

Mayama.1854:

Running a class cannon is not fine in tPvP? What are you talking about? You can turn a 3v3 in 2 seconds into a 3v2 as a thief glass cannon. If you dont do amazing damage after that doesnt matter because you do more than the dead enemy you killed 2 seconds bevor. Glass cannon thieves are very usefull in tPvP.

its putting all your eggs in a basket, very quickly your gonna iether kill and be at a advantage or get killed and be at a disadvantage.

QSpec.4298:

But again, that is disingenuous.

Yes, if you are forced to run away, you lose. If you die, you lose more. Every other class in the entire game loses more when they lose a fight than the thief does. Every single one.

When I do engage a target I shouldn’t or make a mistake and am in fear of losing, I disengage. From there I get options. Do I heal up and go back in? Do I run away and contribute elsewhere?

When I screw up on my Necro, I get to count to 10 while my entire team is down a player.

You do see the difference, right?

I’ll lay it out. 4v5/7v8 or 5v5/8v8.

you dont exactly lose more when you die, especially if you respawn closer to some other point and take it. not too mention this doesnt happen 100% of the time, a thief will not always get away. do you heal up? what heal do you run? i use the stealth heal, and i blow it in fight not after. run away and contribute elsewhere is sometimes more beneficical, depends where you are vs where the person rezzing is compared to the point that is under contestation, there are in fact times where rezzing is faster.

and further thieves are not the only ones that can spec in such away that would allow them to run away if things are getting stacked against them, elementals, engineers, mesmers just to name a few can also do this.

stating im being disengenious is bias, im not being disengenious.

i run a 10/30/30/0/0 build with D/P myself.

if i really want to kill someone i rely on BP>HS>BS

but i spend a good bit of time doing more then trying to burst someone down

i take critical haste and weapon sigil of rage and dont take the haste skill.

why? i actually find it procs quite often, and i dont use it for BP>HS>BS, i use it…for autoattack. cant tell you how many times ive had someone charge me, i drop BP, they whif, i auto, one of those kick in, and they melt.

the key is to not focus all your time on the BP>HS>BS but do what pistol offhand does best, screw with everyone.

my skills i run the same heal, but then i have shadow refuge, smoke screen (screws ranged so well) and shadowstep along with daggerstorm. shadowsteps return effect acts as more removal for conditions as well

its honestly, a amazing build for damage when you need it, and group play harrassment. i love it, i used to do double dagger, my avg glory gain went up by 100 (usualy 200+) so long as my group is competitive (I.E. not getting steamrolled)

sorry dodge>all for defensive skills

stealth drops target, prevents re-aquisition of target, it doesn not lessen damage, it doesnt avoid damage. its power comes with how often it can be used, but in terms of power, its far from being best…even moreso when its rendering issues are fixed.

i also constantly see this “and the thief just runs away” really? the way this game works if he ran away YOU WON, you got hte point, prevented it from being taken, you freaking won. maybe i play thief differently, most of the time i dont get away from a fight.

our mobility is supposed to be best, tho we pretty much need a high ini regen build with a specific signet and specialize that spec further into more dodges and take a specific signet for dodging to lay any claim to having best mobility.

i rank it like this

defense=bugged due to stealth issues, tho if we considered it fixed id say a thief not specced defensively is slightly better off then another low hp/armor class not specced defensively, right now its bloated tho. if specced defensively we can be fairly good tho, considering how good dodging is in this game.

offense=in some ways too much, tho if you dont build a go for broke glass cannon build id say we have good damage, you do need to spec and gear for it tho, i went a sustain build, did very poor damage.

mobility=again, if we take specific traits and at least 2 signets, we have great mobility, tho we really need to take those specifics to lay claim to best mobility.

heres the thing tho, no thief will have all that, at most they might get 2 of it.

im just gonna blanket address most of hte nonsense im seeing in here

1-thieves do not need a 15% damage nerf across the board, that is rediculous to even suggest and is the ploy of someone with too much bias and not enough brains to go about asking for thief nerfs realistically.

2-even getting 14 might stacks (i think thats the top before the backstab lands) isnt OP, Anet designed this game with boon stacking in mind, and other classes are capable of as much or more (boon stacking) tho when thats added onto assassins signet and such, it can become an issue

3-part of hte perception that thieves are not as squishy as they should be is due to the stealth bug. how stealth is SUPPOSED to work is you get it for 3-4 seconds (shadow refuge excluded), this duration does NOT break on the thief being damaged, however the thief is A)able to be hit by anything, this includes CC) and breaks stealth if they attack or skill that does damage. The thief then gets a debuff called (revealed) that lasts 3 seconds (that is a long time in pvp of this kind). it prevents the thief from being able to enter stealth again for its duration. due to the rendering issue combined with latency you tend to only see the thief for about 1 second (tho he is selectable beforehand, this is cuz of hte rendering/latency) before he can re-enter stealth. this provides a effective, tho not actual, extra bit of protection for the thief and limits the percieved time to retaliate. it needs fixing

4-not all thieves can spam everything back to back endlessly, i can, with full initiative, use shortbows teleport twice, then have to wait about 5 seconds before i can use it again. this uses all my initiative. yes i know, we are doing it more then another calss cuz they have Cd’s, thats the point of initiative.

5-not all thieves that spec to backstab use the rediculous glass cannon build that people are complaining about. i myself use a backstab build, you know how hard i crit a guardian or warrior typically? 3k-5k tops with group buffs is what ive seen. glass cannon? 6-8 maybe, and those 8ks it was better for me to autoattack them. imo no calss should be able to reliably (at least in coordinated tourney play) spec glass cannon, everyone should need at least some defensive skills. and if you spec glass cannon, you shoudl not whine about dying quickly, being 2 shot even is imo acceptable, but this is imo, and only matters if anet agrees with it.

6-i do question mug (deadly arts trait) as it really seems like “free” damage. not sure if i agree with it.

7-general information to people, if you do not have A) at least 1 stunbreaker,at least 1 strong defensive skill) C)at least one form of spell interrupt whether it be daze or stun or fear etc then imo your playing bad. ive faced good opponents, they will interrupt your heal, your CnD cast, they will stun/snare you while stealtehd and make room.

everysingle time is ee someone try to make the excuse that its a team fight and they cant be expected to see the thief coming cuz they are tunneling the bunker guardian to try and take the point i /facepalm. this is a team pvp game, part of team based pvp is awareness, yes preloading CnD into steal+backstab is bad, and needs fixed imo (at least the damage portion from the galss cannon build) but thats a 45 second CD (steal), its not up every fight.

learn to not tunnel

learn to use stunbreakers/interrupts/CC/defensive CD’s, i use them even on my thief! and i use them often

interrupting is such a huge thing im surprised people dont do it yet, interrupting someones heal or other important spell…so important.

To all of those who said the thief sacrifice their surviablitity for this “1-shot” spec, that’s not true. I have personally dueled a thief with this spec at least 10 times and I can tell you that his surviability is still a lot better than a lot of classes even with glass canon spec. One time I got the thief down next to nothing but he steatlhed and came back almost full life and instant gibbed me from 15k heatlh to nothing in 1 sec….it’s just kitten

If its THE glass cannon backstab build then he has 2 dodges and stealth. One isnt any different then other classes (dodge). and the second is bugged, extending the duration of his/her stealth effect (not actually but effectively) by 2 seconds or more, meaning you only get about 1 second or so to really see and attack him (this is a problem with rendering and i hope it gets fixed).

but lets say he has 10k hp (probably more like `14k but im giving you benefit of the doubt). that spec typically does not have points in shadow arts, it maxes out poison and critical strikes and probably 10 in trickery for the buf you can get thru steal there.

so he has no +healing, no traits that aide with healing, in fact he has at most 2 healing effects, his heal utility, and shadow refuge.

our strongest heal has a cast time and puts us in stealth (obvious animation, you didnt try to interrupt it?). it heals for about 5-6k hp and has a HoT that i dont think will put it past 8k total.

i know on my thief when i use my deathblossom build (14k hp) it heals about half of my health (tho i tend to use a diff heal in that spec usually)

so if he has maybe 10k hp and blows 2 cooldowns he can go from near death to full. im pretty sure any thief will have more hten 10k hp tho, my low hp build only dropped to 14k like i said. my current build thats 10 deadly/30crit/30shadow with knights amulet and berzerkers jewel is at 19k hp.
then shadow refuge, without +healing its about 250 a tick i believe? and only heals so long as he stays inside that big circle (that you can see btw)

and damage doesnt pop a thief out of stealth, stealth is supposed to last 3 seconds even if you get hit or not, only coming out early if the thief takes offensive actions (uses a skill or attacks)

basically if he has 10k hp, his heal will heal for percieved more since he has such low hp.

coupled with stealth bugged the way it is, he has effectively more survival then he should.

people wanting to ruin a skill for hte sake of realism /sigh

your first mistake was complaining about WvWvW

anet said they wont be balancing it, so complaining about it is pointless

second, that specific spec the thief is using is on the chopping block, so dont worry

Turbo Whale.1738:

[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/34hf215.jpg[/IMG]

I’m not saying thieves shouldn’t have great spike damage, but with absolutely crazy mobility, stealth, and 1 hit KOs, I think we have a problem.

ahh the fabled 30/30/30/30/30 thief. but seriously, this thief has limited stealth and mobility compared to other thieves as he/she sacrafices everything for that damage. i agree tho its over the top. whats funny is if you just took out assassins signet that 15k backstab would go to 10k

[quoet] Not to mention backstab does not require initiative to use.[/quote]

no but stealth typically does require initiative, or to blow a CD, then we have to get into melee range behind the target. i think its fair that backstab does high damage, tho again this is over the top and needs addressing.

Glassy thieves are the best class to go glass with because they aren’t glass at all.

I trust Anet to properly balance this build. If they feel it is already balanced: then so be it. If you BSers think it is already balanced then you have nothing to fear in terms of nerfs. I’m just voicing my opinion

i think backstab itself is balanced, i think the glass cannon build that does this kind of damage isnt. i run a 10/30/30/0/0 build with 2890 attack and 49% crit. my typical bakcstab crits are about half that (against glass builds)

im totally for this build being nullified, i just think nerfing backstab base damage is a poor way to do it as it will create more problems then it solves.

Bels.7210:

I understand the frustration with the stealth bug, it’s very annoying to not have your assailant appear while attacking you.

But bear in mind that despite this, the thief can be attacked and responded to (as in dodges, aoes, breaks, protection skills, reflects, hell even auto attacks still work).

I find that despite not seeing the body of the thief, I can still see the animation ‘swirls’ as they mash their faceroll skills

But yeah, should be fixed really.

nah, that would require people to try, to step outside there comfort, thats simply asking too much!

Shukran.4851:

1 single pool of initiative is something that force you to decide what to use. swapping weapons allow other classes to cycle their skills.
if you end your ini pool with shortbow, switching weap wont give u more ini.

uhm…im not talking about switching weapons giving initiative

QSpec.4298:

@ Wolfe

Come on, man… this hyperbole is making it difficult to have a reasonableconversation. I play a thief in pvp. I don’t want to see them nerfed to hell either, but there are some things that need to be realistically adjusted.

The squishy build BS is probably out of line. BS itself is not. That said, let’s not pretend that once the cheese build blows all of his cooldowns for the insta-gib that the thief is worthless. BS still hits hard (just not as hard) and the thief can still contribute (now vs a team who is down one person). Is he as good as he is with his CDs up? Absolutely not, but to say he is weak is, as I said above, hyperbole.

Moreover, I am tired of the thief has no defense. In a vacuum? Yes, the thief is weak. If he were to just stand there and let any other class pound on him, yes, he is weak. That said, thieves get one of the single best defensive skills in the game on a relatively low cooldown. When I am on my thief and I lose a fight, more often than not that just means I have to run away for a few seconds… when I am on my necro and I lose a fight, I am looking at a respawn timer.

yes i know stealth is bugged, cant wait for the bugs to be fixed and effectively reduce stealth duration from 5-6 seconds to 3-4 when specced properly, and you go from 1 second of being visible to 3. should provide a interesting change.

but as far as teh hyperbole comment, yes the thief is weak, at this point he may have 2 dodges and a heal that may put him in stealth. he doesnt have the omg amazing mobility or survivability. hes tissue paper. yes he can still hit hard, but its brought from the stratosphere to merely high. hes weak, if anyone would attack/cc him hed fall over.

but again, when the stealth bugs are fixed, i dont see your supposed ability to survive being much if anything.

its a crappy build, that provides very little to the group in terms of letting yoru team win.

@shukran, i honestly dont think it would need a rework.

think about it

backstab would never be affected, PW played properly would never be effected, pistol mainhand will never be affected.

at least not by competent players.

the only thing this will serve is to make HS spamming even less feasible and hurt spammers in general. it should have little effect on good theives.

and @ Smackjack, despite what you think, most players (especially in hotjoin or pugged tpvp) ARE bad players. especially in a game this new.

and the only condition build that might not “spam” for thieves is pistol mainhand.

yes and the backstab glass cannon build is the worst group pvp build in the game in terms of it making a contribution to winning or losing, still gonna be nerfed.

i just thinkt here should be discouragement for mindless spamming

Larynx.2453:

Wolfe.3097:

hardly talking about steal, assassins signet is the main thing. not too mention many pair it with devourers or basilisk to further ensure the backstab.

assassins signet is the main cd, can turn 5k into 7.5k (more actually cuz of hte traits hte build uses with might stacking)

Um, apparently Assassin’s Signet is all of my cooldowns, and is so important that I’m completely useless without it.

Gotcha.

I don’t even run with Basilisk or Devourer, so I’m guess I’m just perpetually useless.

im sorry, i guess i shouldve added vs a competent player, cuz lets be honest, i could make a vid of me using black powder and autoattack only and gibbing people all over the place cuz they refuse to move out of my circle.

steal is just one aspect of the build, its usually used in cunjunction with the others to get a long ranged near instant kill off which can be pretty hard to counter.

even without it, your gonna do 1/3 less damage without assassins signet. those epic 10k backstabs are really more like 6.6k in a completly glass cannon build (less actualy again cuz of the specs might stacking)

not too mention i said its the main Cd, not the only. im talking about a very specific backstab build here, not just any backstab build.

its a problem with the glass cannon backstab build everyones copying, not the thief itself

dude, “woosh” that is the sound of my point going over your head.

i simply used HS as a example, the problem i was addressing is lack of penalty for mindless spamming with the thief class. not to mention i stated that HS spam is a poor and weak gameplan both defensive and offensively…did you read that part?

giving BS a 2 second CD would do almost nothing. and thieves do get removed from stealth when they attack, they just dont get removed when they get hit while in stealth.

you cant spam BS, its impossible. you hit with it, your out of stealth, you get a 3 second debuff before you can enter stealth again.

im all for constructive critisiscm but when you

A) entirely miss the point of the thread and
B) make multiple false claims about a ability

i question your sanity good sir

hardly talking about steal, assassins signet is the main thing. not too mention many pair it with devourers or basilisk to further ensure the backstab.

assassins signet is the main cd, can turn 5k into 7.5k (more actually cuz of hte traits hte build uses with might stacking)

your using the skill wrong

its a refuge, not a bunker

it buys you time, the fact that there is a counter to it just means its balanced

atm the way ini is designed and our weapon sets we pretty much have to cast one spell if we want to kill someone (damagewise)

the strength of ini isnt that we can use our damage move back to back (we only have one afterall) but that we can use our utility skills back to back.

however the way its currently setup, there is no real penalty to doing something stupid like 8+HS or DB’s in a row.

I suggest a small tweak, that would discourage and make spamming less feasible then it currently is, while still maintaining the benefit of being able to use a skill back to back.

heartseeker is a good example, people like to spam the crap out of it (regardless of it being a poor and weak gameplan both defensively and offensively). it costs 3 initiative.

what if every time we used the same skill back to back, its cost went up by 1 initiative point. doesnt sound like much, and certainly wont be horribly detrimental if you use something twice in a row.

lets say you can cast HS 10 times (ease of math) before you have to wait, thats 30 ini used. now lets see with the new tweak i suggested.

3+4=7+5=12+6=18+7=25+8=33! ok so we got passed. 3,4,5,6,7, keeps you under the 30 ini.

thats 5 HS vs 10.

just keep in mind

this wont effect good PW players who pair there PW with utiltiy skills

this wont effect backstab players

I honestly think this is a good idea, and if anet thinks its a problem, and like this idea, i hope they use it.

there should probably be some kind of ICD on this too tho, so if you use a move, and dont use another for say…4-5 seconds it resets the cost.

i have general knowledge of 4 professions ty. and a spattering on everything else.

i simply have spent more time with thieves, i freely admit i know more about them then other professions.

prejudice? explain that please.

the point of you thread was flame bait asking if it was a unfinished profession. your reasoning is because in order for a thief to do damage they mainly have one skill.

i counter its how the class is designed, right or wrong, it is.

The problem people are having is they pick up the class, and immediatly start spamming giving little thought. yes ini allows it, but it doesnt promote it. the strength of it is allowing to circumvent the CD useage not for damage (we only have one damage move like i said) but for utility.

the ability to put down back to back head shots, or black powders, etc.

yes many thieves just spam there damage, many, especially in hot join or vs someone who greatly overestimates there skill, this works.

you take a player that knows the ini system beyond “lul spam damage lul” and you end up with a much more potent profession that can impact the playing field much more effecitvely then the upteen heartseekers some noob would have to spam in order to kill someone.

I do (have posted it in other threads) have an idea that would at least put a detriment on it. whenever a thief uses a spell back to back, it increases its ini cost by 1 or 2.

so you end up with a HS spammer that can spam HS about 8 times before he has to wait, thats a total of 24 ini spent. even with just a 1 ini cost each time that would lower the number of HS he can cast back to back to. 34+5+6=18, not enough ini to cast it again.

just by increasing the ini cost of the skill being spammed back to back by 1 each time you go from 8 HS to 4. yes they can use a skill in between, but then they arent spamming

Isabis.9561:

Wolfe.3097:

Isabis.9561:

did they change something since i last was online? because a downed friendly takes a good bit more then 5 seconds for me to rez on my own…, 5 seconds might get me 1/4-1/3 of the rez

It was always needed a bit less than 5 secs to rezz a recently downed player (with 50% hp that is).

maybe thats it, i never see a downed player with “50%” of his downed state hp, they are usually much lower. its weird tho, when i look at my screen, they have no hp, and i try to rez them, and it takes forever.

now, if more teamates help me rez that person it does speed it up a lot tho.

It’s actually closer to 70% than 50%, go ingame and check.

im not disagreeing with ya, maybe its possible i just start rezzing too late in the fight. the only time ive rezzed someone in that timeframe tho i had help.

Smackjack.5071:

Shukran.4851:

the sad thing is 90% of thief haters only play 8v8…..
..but ofc 8v8 is srs bsns… go on with hate

How come i see tons of thieves in tournies then ?

Seeing 3 thief’s regularly in tourny groups is nothing new. They are quite popular in tournies, not so surprising tbh.

thieves are good, but not top dog in tpvp by any means, if you see 3 thieves its just cuz they wanted to run 3 thieves, not because its more effective then other comps.

ive seen 5 thieves, for no other reason then they thought they were hot stuff in hotjoin and thought it would ccarry over to tpvp

Krustydog.1043:

Pimpslapper.2047:

One second of glory, and one minute of weakness and being as frail as a granny. Trade off?

1 second of glory? 1 minute of weakness? how long to completely regain your initiative? prolly not as long as it takes my stun break to come off cool down.

hes referring to the infamous glass cannon backstab build people like to talk about.

they use all there Cd’s for that one kill, then have 45 seconds to 1 min where they are useless.

Isabis.9561:

Wolfe.3097:

HS is NOT A BUILD. its like saying someone uses only Cloak and dagger lulz. people who try and make HS there main damage moves, especially after nerf, fail so hard its not even funny.

PW needs to be paired with a CD to be halfway reliable, you will not kill a competent player without that.

and again, just cuz you find the spammiest version of DB and use it doesnt mean there arent other more effective ways of playing it.

i never said thieves didnt “spam” its how the calss is freaking designed. every spec has mainly one damage move, this is the move the thief will use when they want to damage someone. if you dont like it, go play something else.

yes i do think your a bad player, especially if you try and use a HS “build”. I didnt think people still used it like that since the nerf, some people dont get the hint, hell above 50% youll do better damage autoattacking.

Yea ok, I’m pretty much done with you.
DB spamming condi build is the best thief build by far and I’d place high bets onto that. Most effective way to play it is spamming DB and dodge, extremely dull.
“Spam” design is a broken design.
Go try playing a necro or ele and fight HS thief then come here and say HS is not a build, you will get demolished, I’m 99% sure.

i disagree with you, provide reasons, and you stop the debate, just proof you have nothing to back you up.

so you want to compare arguably one of the weakest classes (necro) with one of the highest learning curves in the game (ele) and then get back to you? above 75% it does less then autoattack, above 50% it might match autoattack but the time between attacks is slower then just autoing, below 25% it hits hard.

it has no evasion frames, tho it does close a gap when not snared. what this means is the thief would just use HS to keep the gap close and used autoattack (which when dagger mainhand provides a poison debuff) youd die even faster.

ive played the DB condition build sir, both ways, spam double daggers and the one with shortbow in second set. its powerful, and with double daggers it is spammy as hell. but strongest? hardly, stop using hotjoin to base the skill level and effectiveness of skills and players please.

you can argue that “spam” is broken by design, but its how anet designed thieves, what you want me to do when i want to damage someone? use black powder? lol, or maybe headshot? ironically it does extremely low damage despite the name. or maybe shadowshot, my gap closer?

heck a lot of the time ill kill someone with my autoattack instead of HS cuz its faster then leaping thru the air for one hit.

and again if you lose to a thief that spams HS, a move, that until 25% is less effective then standing there autoattacking you, that has abokittenly no evasion frames, and is negated by something as simple as a cripple effect (which necros and eles have access to) then thats on you.

i do wanna play a necro tho, they look fun.

Isabis.9561:

did they change something since i last was online? because a downed friendly takes a good bit more then 5 seconds for me to rez on my own…, 5 seconds might get me 1/4-1/3 of the rez

It was always needed a bit less than 5 secs to rezz a recently downed player (with 50% hp that is).

maybe thats it, i never see a downed player with “50%” of his downed state hp, they are usually much lower. its weird tho, when i look at my screen, they have no hp, and i try to rez them, and it takes forever.

now, if more teamates help me rez that person it does speed it up a lot tho.

Isabis.9561:

You guys are trying to make it sound complicated, but I got over 300 games as a thief and I know it’s not. I have at least 50 games with every profession and thief is by far the most spam-oriented profession of all.
There are 3 most common specs: HS, PW and DB, lately there are more backstab thiefs, but anyway, these 3 builds are basically spamming of one ability, it is REALLY NOT that complicated as you make it sound. I assume you will think this now: “ok, this guy is a total noob, he is probably just spamming these abilities and gets owned often”. No, I’m not a total noob, I actually achieved a extremely high rating in the last two games I’ve played. Thief is really that dull compared to others.

HS is NOT A BUILD. its like saying someone uses only Cloak and dagger lulz. people who try and make HS there main damage moves, especially after nerf, fail so hard its not even funny.

PW needs to be paired with a CD to be halfway reliable, you will not kill a competent player without that.

and again, just cuz you find the spammiest version of DB and use it doesnt mean there arent other more effective ways of playing it.

i never said thieves didnt “spam” its how the calss is freaking designed. every spec has mainly one damage move, this is the move the thief will use when they want to damage someone. if you dont like it, go play something else.

yes i do think your a bad player, especially if you try and use a HS “build”. I didnt think people still used it like that since the nerf, some people dont get the hint, hell above 50% youll do better damage autoattacking.

Hopeless.8195:

Maybe an increase between stealths to say, 10 seconds?

are you high?

no seriously, you mine as well get rid of the shadow arts tree at that point.

lets calm down a sec, lets get the stealth bugs fixed, and then assess whether stealth needs further tuning. thieves will lose a good bit of percieved power with the bug fixes i assure you.

I’ve tried power and condi builds. It’s either:
- spam HS 90% of the fight
- spam PW 80% of the fight, use infiltrators strike if kited
- spam Death Blossom 80% of the fight, use dodge when low initiative

HS build is total spamfest of one ability, really really rarely anything else is used.
PW and DB builds are spam as well, with occasional infiltrators strike and dodge (if dodge can even be qualified as ability), cloak and dagger – basically never used

first thing, HS build is not a real build. it was merely possible to be used (inneffective in itself ubt people still died to it) with previous damage calculations, if you took a dagger mainhand and thought (hey, HS must be the move i spam for damage) your a terrible player and need your head checked.

dagger mainhand builds are either about deathblossom, or backstab. both require entirely different stats and skill choices.

the fact that you think you only use PW in a PW build is abokittenly helarious, good luck and hitting anyone with a ounce of brain in there head. you HAVE to pair a Cd with PW to land it, or find someone thats afk/just that bad of a player.

DB build, there is a trolly DB build that uses 2 double dagger sets and tries to dodge/DB forever. ill give you that one, but most intelligent DB thieves dont use that one. they use DB for evasion and to get suitable amount of bleed stacks then typically switch to shortbow to kite.

its not our fault you took a thief and decided to not actually learn how to play them.

BTW my non glass canon thief does not die in 3 hits but i do kill in 3 hits and less and still have gtfo of dodge skills.

show me your spec and gear please, i can believe a non glass cannon backstab build be able to kill in 3 backstab crits (has to crit, have to gain stealth, have to get behind target 3 times, id say its fair). maybe pistol whip (not sure).

but believe me, when the stealth bugs are fixed, i think thieves will become much more manageable when someone has the full 3 seconds of revealed time to deal with them. right now its more like 1 second if that.

Smackjack.5071:

About shortbow… be careful. Other classes have it much worse. Spamming it twice for instance alone is a luxury. Every other class in the entire game is limited by cooldowns. They get to use their escape exactly one time

Then on top of that thieves regenerate initiative fairly quickly (especially given certain traits). Untraited a thief can spam bow tele twice, and then a little more than 8 seconds later do it again.

A necro (the class I am most familiar with for this comparison) has swiftness on a 30 second cooldown and a teleport on a heinous 40 second cooldown.

Compared to any other class in the game, thief skills are eminently spammable.

^That

On my thief i can choose to be permanently on short CD or use a long CD whenever i wish. Now guess why thiefs are constantly spamming 1 skill !

Unless they build for backstab but they get a 1 shot in return and they still are capable of spamming high dmg low initiative skills.

I stopped playing my thief because it became boring fast but with the amount of thiefs i see in tournies i am considering dusting it off just for those.

@ the part i bolded in the quote, please stop spreading misinformation, i use a backstab build i do not 1shot anyone. it is a VERY SPECIFIC build that does this, and that build is what needs addressing not backstab itself.

also, in this backstab build, this very specific one, what other high damage low ini damage move do they have access to? HS? thats only hard hitting at 25% hp or below, death blossom? its a bleed stacker that does poor damage when your specced for power/crit. dancing dagger? it does decent damage if it only hits 2 targets because the dagger will hit them twice isntead of once. cloak and dagger? obvious cast time, used to gain stealth not for damage.

dagger mainhand sets for thieves really only have 1 true high damage move, and thats backstab, HS only hits hard when at very low hp, and the other attacks just dont.

ill say it again, that very specific backstab build needs addressed, not backstab itself. spreading misinformation like that is dangerous