Guild Wars 2

its proof, every single spec of thief is being whined about

any thief that uses stealth=whine

any thief that uses dodge=whine

any thief that uses dagger mainhand or sword/Pistol=whine

ive even seen whine about shortbow DAMAGE not its mobility

yup, thieves must be broken in every freaking aspect of this game /sigh

i agree with you guys, delete the class, nobodies gonna be happy until its gone

my impressions for spvp is its not balance,d never going to be balanced, and the goal of the game isnt to balance around it.

obtuse.8291:

i think 15 critical strikes is nearly essential, but 20 and 30 has great stuff for different styles. at the moment. there are some specific choices in the lower trees that can balance not having 15 critical but they very specific and lead to kind of low choice in the builds overall. the reason is you need to have solid initiative regain and stats to back it up. so some builds have signets of power and signet use. i think any dagger offhand set is very strong with shadow arts so you can get big heal / regen from the two traits, aslo

my dagger is mainhand actually, pistol offhand, while bp>hs is more expensive, i find BP group support coupled with the combos reliability to be more effective overall.

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

The entire build has no synargy and is just bad, what is your primary weapon set?

first, sorry, was gone all day.

second, i use D/P+shortbow with this build, i have a weapon sigil that also can grant some quickness.

third, the fact that you think a entire build needs absolute synergy to work well in practice leads me to question your sanity sir! im not for all these cookie cutter builds that do one thing and one thing only.

take a closer look at the build. its obviously backstab focused, but i dont take assassins signet because again, im not trying to be a one trick pony. rather i opt for more ini regen and movement speed, i also find there on use effects useful.

i do gain power from using a signet, the two quickness effects i take cuz it results in a very large dps incrase for no real penalty other then it being random. and executioner is self explanatory, its a high damage build that has enough survivability to stay in the fight.

shadow arts is easy to understand, ini regen talents, and hp regen while stealthed (soft counter to conditions).

the ten points in tricks is simply cuz i wanted thrill of hte crime, its a good little boost if used at beginning of fight, but at same time the minor trait in tricks is counter intuitive leading you to want to save that steal for after you initiated the fight.

now i could take 10 points out of shadow arts, on the argument that i dont really need shadows rejuvination (ive found it helpful, but maybe some playtime without it will help me see it clearer or not) and put it in deadly tree, resulting in steal giving me “free” damage and a 10 second healing debuff, which also helps considering the amount of burst i often layout in those ten seconds.

if i just alternated points from tricks to deadly id lose thrill of the crime, thus losing fury, and would then take critical strikes furious retaliation over signets of power.

or if i took it and went 20 in tricks i could get bountiful theft and 3 more ini.

i could take 20 points out of shadow arts but i really dont like that cuz i lose the minor trait meld with shadows.

so idealy i have about 20 points to play with (the last 10 in shadow arts and the 10 in trickery). im just looking for opinions on where to best put those 20 points.

you can argue this build sucks at tpvp, as i havent tested it very much there, but in spvp this build can turn the face of a close quarters node fight. you say it has no synergy, that is not true, its simply not putting all its eggs in one basket like so many thief builds are at the moment. why would i want a backstab build that focuses all its energy into ONE kill every like 45 seconds or so? that can kill a key target but in group pvp its not as much of a help.

how i play it is i tend to pick a target (i dont run in first unless the fight is smaller scale) and lay into him/her until i need to switch to group support. ive found with opportunist+infusion of shadow+patience+infiltrators signet i have enough ini regen to support black powder>HS>backstab while still being able to shadowshot/headshot/HS when needed. and often i can utilize autoattack alone to melt players, especially when quickness kicks in (obviously not on defensive warriors or gaurdians but…you gotta pick your fights smart).

between black powder and shadow refuge i can support the team in the most important aspect of pvp, downed state. it also excels at 1v1, and honestly i am hesitant to take points out of shadow arts because shadows rejuvination feels like it makes a big impact on my survivability.

so please, im not gonna get upset, but tell me how its bad and has no synergy, but ill say this, synergy=/= effective all the time, it just means you typically excel at one avenue. i find my damage atm MORE then enough to pressure anyone into having to deal with me as a immediate threat, and i dont get blown over by the slightest touch either.

here is my build at the moment http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#MckzMc0MMFRvMMFRvM0xx0aMaqVaqV

im looking to tune it

im fairly set on critical strikes and the first 10 points in shadow arts. up to suggestions elsewhere.

ive thought about atking 10 out of shadow arts for mug (+ poison on minor trait). thought about going farther in tricks for bountiful theft + more initiative.

in a spvp set what do you think would be most effective?

in a tpvp setting what do you think?

ive had good success with this build in spvp thus far, just looking to squeeze more out of it and thought id try and get some community perspective

1-yes i agree if someone is at 10% hp im sure HS is very viable, autoattack i assume is on by default

2-true, but in that situation you can use cloak and dagger without worrying about damage anyways.

3-flawless? lol fanboy much? sorry thats inflammatory but seriously kinda asking for it when stating such an absolute. it favors direct damage builds, proof is that 5 of its skills benefit more from power/crit then from condition.

and my god your a arrogent pri*ck

glad to see someone with competent tpvp experience commenting on thief pvp power.

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

Wolfe.3097:

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

I am sick of noob Thieves making dumb suggestions. Leaping Death Blossom is fine. Dagger Dagger is a perfect designed weapon set that is viable for both burst and condition specs.

The only dual ability that needs a redesign is Flanking Strike, everything else works.

not true, you run a conditions dagger/dagger build you mine as well remove all the other moves from your action bar, its a gimmick, a fun one, one that i have a alt gear set just for, but a gimmic nonetheless.

just cuz your biased over it doesnt mean its not an issue.

You think that a D/D condition build doesn’t use dancing dagger, cloak and dagger, heartseeker and auto attack? You are terrible at playing and understanding a D/D Thief.

I am not biased, unlike you I know what I am talking about.

sure you can use it, but its not as effective. a properly built CONDITIONS D/D (dont spout kitten about D/D when right its its more then one spec) build will rely on dodges/evasion effects not stealth. autoattack isnt even included in my discussion, id assume you had it on regardless, and it does pitiful damage. as well as HS, dancing dagger you could use, but lets be honest, youd be more likelyt o kill someone with it with a power/crit build. most you get from conditions is slightly longer cripple.

im not being biased, its simple fact, more of D/D skills benefit from power/crit, yes we have have traits/utilities that benefit from conditions but it doesnt outweigh the overwhelming design direction of D/D.

if HS, cloak, and backstab and autoattack of D/D supported conditions damage rather then being based off of power/crit id agree with ya, but they dont.

your clinging to a halfbaked design that while works, is still a gimmick

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

I am sick of noob Thieves making dumb suggestions. Leaping Death Blossom is fine. Dagger Dagger is a perfect designed weapon set that is viable for both burst and condition specs.

The only dual ability that needs a redesign is Flanking Strike, everything else works.

not true, you run a conditions dagger/dagger build you mine as well remove all the other moves from your action bar, its a gimmick, a fun one, one that i have a alt gear set just for, but a gimmic nonetheless.

just cuz your biased over it doesnt mean its not an issue.

First, D/P shadowshot self roots for for some reason, that needs fixing, cant believe you could even overlook that, have you ever used shadowshot?

pistol whip will probably be nerfed just because of forum outcry just like heartseeker, anet apparently panders to the lowest common denominator

if they fix the pathing on flanking strike it would be fine i imagine

deathblossom imo is an issue, it splits D/D into two builds essentially. watering down its set and makes it a bit confusing. you go direct damage and its a expensive dodge for when you have no dodges left. or you go conditions and use it in almost exclusion to anything else on your weapon set.

also tru enough about P/P unload skill, kinda odd really.

and

@knyx, dude, dont suggest that, it would RUIN dagger/pistol builds. D/P is a power oriented weapon set with group support in terms of blind effects. the idea is straight up bad and just serves to make D/P the watered down spec rather then D/D. not too mention the INSANE initiative cost it would require to do what you say.

ok sorrow, on the other end lets see some coordinated, vent using, highly skilled thief in tpvp vs other highly skilled.

you want to raise the skill floor you better find ways to raise the skill roof too

sorrow.2364:

Rika.7249:

sorrow.2364:

Rika.7249:

Let’s just get this done:

Nobody loses against a spam-thief.
Nobody loses against a strict power+precision thief either.
You cannot compare great thieves with the spam-thieves.
Spam-thieves do not even get close to succeeding half as much as a great thief.

What you said has no real base except your experience, which, as a thief, isn’t valid.
I did it and I succeded. Here’s another guy that did it and succeded but posted a youtube video about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ

So my experience, as a thief, isn’t valid.

He’s not fighting competent players.

That’s all there is to it.

A thief can punish bad players more than any other can.

Thieves ARE punished when they meet a good player.

Of course it isn’t valid, because you are a thief and thief is your profession! Your point of view is extremely biased.

What let you think they aren’t competent? They are player and that’s what matter. You shouldn’t know if they are competent or not. There are many other videos on youtube explaining how to effectively spam Heartseeker. (lol)

And, if they aren’t competent as you said, all professions should be able to punish incompetent players at the same level, that’s what I call balance. Same opportunities.

All professions are punished when they meet a good player, but obviously an extremely good Necromancer/Elementalist/Engeneer/Ranger will never defeat an extremely good Thief.

the only way your gonna get tha level of balance is thru homoginization of professions and abilities.

and while i dont know about necro, a extremely good ele or engi will definitly be able to fight toe to toe with the thief (maybe not literally, but in terms of winning chance)

seriously, all this whining about spvp is hilarious. lets get some coordinated premade tpvp complaints. oh there is none…thats cuz in tpvp the thief is again, only as powerful as the opposing team is knowledgeable and coordinated.

bad players

dont dodge
dont spec or use damage mitigating skills or traits cuz they want MOAR DAMAGE
tunnel on one enemy and ignore others to there detriment
still have the turn keys on there keyboard (seriously, if you pvp, remove them and remap the strafe keys to them, there is NEVER a time where you want to keyboard turn)
tab target (horrible)

if its a PW thief vs a bad player, that bad player WILL NOT DODGE the PW, the thief doesnt have to precast, pair it with immobilize or haste, that bad player will just stand there and take it then complain

if its a backstab thief, that player will see him go into stealth and NOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT, he wont even make room, and he will keep his back where it has been.

the people making thieves and posting these videos, are using hotjoin pvp where the majority of these bad players exist, so in the hectic 8v8 all they are doing is racking up kills on players that dont know jack.

Typical argument by someone who is clueless. Your attacking my attitude towards thief rather than trying to provide evidences to argue against my point.

maybe if there was a little less acid in your tone you could do more then incite an argument. presentation matters. and the fact you even bring up evidence to form against your point is also silly as i AGREED with you that 20k damage in 2 seconds from one class is unbalanced, i just disagreed with the way to fix it.

And your opinion that nerfing backstab damage won’t solve the problem leads to absurd implication: so if bactstab damage is halved, 20k damage will be just as easily achievable?

i didnt imply that, if you thought i did thats a failure on your part not mine.

Plus, I have a problem with the amount of stealth skills thief has available and how easy they can be spammed regardless of whether they are bugged.

first THEY ARE BUGGED, so before any nerfing happens, you need the bugs fixed, as many of them are beneficial to the thief. the rendering issues are a big one, revealed sometimes not applying like it should are also big ones. Now, ive brought it up in other threads but i do think the ability to subvert the revealed debuff by hitting your stealth CD’s back to back before they fade is a little cheese and id be ok with that being taken away, so you will never see a thief in stealth longer then 3-4 seconds if the bugs are fixed (aside from shadow refuge, but you know where he is if hes using that). But just cuz you have a problem with something, doesnt give you the right to label it as OP “incoming i can say whatever i want drivel” saying whatever you want regardless of the basis behind it just leads to a disolving rhetoric and is the same thing as plugging your ears and going NO.

Sadly to you whether my opinion is invalid due to fact that I do not FULLY understand thief and whether I FULLY understand class balance is irrelevant here because Im gonna voice my opinions anyway and let the developers judge whether they should nerf thief or not.

like i said

It’s just your opinion that my opinion is invalid; I can say your defending theif only because you play thief and you know nothing about class balance, but that doesn’t mean anything either.

what lends more credit? garbage thief comments, or people trying to outline why something would or wouldnt work? clean up your comments and id reply with much more respect. of course this is a internet forum, nobody would do that >.<

if you see a thief stealth and you think hes gonna go for a rez, you know where he is then (next to the downed player) you can knock him back/damage him whatever.

but stealth only lasts 3-4 seconds (unless in shadow refuge circle, but then you DEFINITLY know where he is)…more ofthen then not that isnt enough time for me to rez someone.

the execution might be a little more difficult as its a faster animation but the same principles still apply.

i swear tho, every single aspect of thief is OP according to this forum

common sense dictates that magic is not real nor is the ability to be 100 precent stealthed walking around people..atleast the stealth part hasint happend yet..and idk about you but ive never seen someone shoot magic out of there hands nor people raise the dead so the guy who said "in that case a warrior cannot swing a greatsword as fast as 100 blades
magic isnt real therefore necros/elementals shouldnt exist outright

my skill headshot should probably oneshot people" is indeed right and you just failed to show common sense.

do you enjoy ignoring my replies and continuing on as if you heard me say something else?

ill keep it short this time

common sense/realism in a fantasy game that tries to have balanced/competitive pvp is absolutly stupid. the common sense and realism will repeatedly interfere with the balance aspects.

And your the kind of people who assume what others are thinking. I don’t think it’s too much to ask to lower thief’s damage so that, for example, the maximum damage a glass cannon thief can achieve on its back-stab is 8k-10k OR nerf thief’s invisibility skills so that they won’t be able to get away so easily after a failed attempt of assassination.

“garbage thief” <-that right there alone speaks volumes about your stance on game balance, that its sitting quietly directly behind your battered ego.

but, ive said more then once that 20k in 2 seconds is crap and needs addressing,b ut everyone says nerf backstab base damage, when in fact that doesnt solve the burst problem, its how we can stack damage effects+assassins signet.

and for stealth, if you have problems with it wait for the numerous bugs with it to be fixed before you start crying nerf eh?

and to be honest you DO need to understand how the class works before you complain about it, or it in fact does invalidate you claim.

you have no concept of class balance, you just want a nerf, in wahtever form, so you feel better about playing what you like aesthetically, screw balance.

if you dont get by now that 2 second ttk is bad, then so are you. simple aye? my point was that by design 1 out of 5 abilities do damage and the rest are utility, what exactly would be wrong with utility spells actually being used to deal damage? oh thats right NOTHING. your point about 3 out of 5 abilities in each weapon set being solely used for utility is absolute fubar. keep defending 2 second TTK bro, the warriors mages and clerics all did in rift, the BW/sorc players did it in warhammer.

people defending 2 second TTK with absolute fubar experience in MMO play /sigh.

actually everything would be wrong with using utility skills for damage, the mere fact that you think a utility skill should be used for its damage and not for its utiltiy …my god, the stupid.

this is thieves, they work differently, different resource mechanic, what works for the other classes wont work with thief.

and at no point did i efent doing 20k damage in 2 seconds.

Deadly Toy.2630:

Liav.7598:

Deadly Toy.2630:

As Warrior with 28k hp, I was once taken down by a thief in around two seconds, no joke. All they have to do is spam a few skills and kills will flow to them, and when their skill combos got interrupted, they just use one of their many stealth skills and they can safely plan their next move again. This is BS. As long as Thief remains in their current state, PvP will never become enjoyable especially for more squishy professions.

What about godmode Mesmers? Guardians that can hold a point against 2-3+ players at a time for several seconds until their team mates come to assist?

Ever consider that your class should be brought up to par instead of ruining other classes? I can barely compete with a good Elementalist/Mesmer/Engineer, as a Thief. If they nerf Thieves then I guarantee you the FOTM is going to go somewhere else. Oh wait, it already has. It’s called Mesmer!

The only reasonable approach is to try to get the classes on an even playing field a little bit at a time.

I would rather deal with Mesmer BS and Guardian’s ridiculous tankiness combined than getting killed by some garbage thief in two seconds. At least when I am facing Mesmer or Guardian, I have a chance to react like identifying the true Mesmer and trying to interrupt Guardian heal with my skills.

Being able to deal over 10k damage with one single skill in one hit is BROKEN, and combining that BS with other equally high damage skills as well as multiple skills that allow one to easily escape and come back makes a profession way overpowered. I’m sorry but only thieves are defending their own op profession; enjoy while it lasts because there is no way that ArenaNet is gonna just ignore all these complaints. I will probably open a thief character just to abuse him in PvP until it gets nerfed.

what other qually damaging skills?

but im not gonna bother with you, your the type of player who wants x class nerfed so hard it wont be competitive and any format.

not too mention its obvious you dont know what aspects of thief are OP and what arent.

do you know how we get so high a backstab?

Thedenofsin.7340:

Yes, but with a warrior, you can actually see him charge you with his rush. With a thief, you don’t know you’re being stunlocked by a thief until you’re at least down 25% of your hp. The spike is too large. It is unreasonable.

If you are being stunlocked, you should have enough reaction time to assess the situation. Right now you need to basically pop your stun breaker the moment you are stunned in case a stealthed thief is about to unload on you, and that’s simply silly.

a thief cannot stunlock, the only stun we have is attached to pistol whip and lasts .5 seconds.

the only time i can agree with it being hard to react to is when they precast it and pair it with a teleport. or when hasted. any other time it is possible to react, PW has a large windup before it hits.

@auhfel, currently i run a similar build (the one i called zerg friendly) with D/P. its nice, but in coordinated play i think self reliance is important, unless you have someone that can dispel cripple or your running a diff spec that uses withrdraw, then your can be kited a lot, yes inf strike helps a lot but then you also lose the utility and aoe that shortbow provide.

i also dont like the stealthed condition removal for a backstab build because A) your not always gonna wait the 3 seconds in stealth) andits random, having my fate decided by lady luck can be fickle

and again, S/D is a playstyle to have for a alt weapon set (assuming you still use a dagger mainhand build for backstabs) but losing out on shortbow utility makes me cringe.

anymore i focus on one target for kill (which imo dagger mh is better, faster auto attack too) then switch to group support until i feel i can kill again (ill still attack people of course) but thats in my other build for farming glory in spvp.

33% more speed while stealthed, imo needed vs anyone competent enough to try and make room when you stealth (sword mainhand not withstanding), ability to remove cripple/weakness on dodge imo is just huge. not having it means you can be kited while you waist ini trying to get into melee range for 2 seconds at a time and do crap damage while your at it. and pain response helps so much i find.

but, to each there own, there are many viable specs still out there, and its good to ahve them

there is only 3 ways i can see a thief sneaking up on anyone. blowing there stealth skills back to back to gain more hten 3-4 seconds of stealth time. shadow trap, or you having your camera zoomed in too far.

just cuz your engaged in combat with someone doesnt mean you can exclude your positional awareness. i remember fighting 2 people at a node, having to dodge and attack them, i see a warrior coming, in anticipate adn dodge his bulls charge letting him whif his hundred blades.

now, i could say “i was fighting 2 people how do i see the warrior coming?”

but as for precasted cloak>steal>backstab…while it only happens once every 45 seconds or so, i agree its not easily avoided. however CnD by itself is easily avoided, seeing a thief go into stealth it is also then easy to avoid him (just make room, his stealth will fade before he can get into position)…but if you choose to ignore it and keep fighting your target, you took the loss.

but saying “you werent ready” is never an excuse

not too mention aside from the damage stacking one hit wonder backstab build, there is actually a good bit of effort and timing involved in landing a typical backstab and pistol whip. you can just hit PW (or backstab obviously) and expect a return on your investment. never happen

ah ok.

there is a recently stealthed debuff, it lasts 3 seconds, but sometimes bugs where it doesnt get applied, and you can activate another stealth skill before your first one ends and prolong the stealth (which im unsure if it should be possible, it burns a lot of CD’s but it feels weird, ill leave it up to anet to decide)

once some of our damage gets inline you will see more well rounded thief specs, right now glass cannon is the way to get if you want killing blows (which everyone does it seems)

Shomaruki.7395:

Yes you are correct I didn’t depend on pressing 1 and 2 all game. I actually require to use more then 2 skills to take on people. As I was saying MESMERS can’t use attack skills on a person they can not target. Example: Some of their attack skills are also the escape skills.

That leaves me with what? Aoes? Which for one don’t do much but add a few boons on a character.

first…only bad thieves press 2 buttons all game, and second, only bad players get killed by thieves who only press 2 buttons all game

im not talking about wvwvw…that is a culsterkitten and dont try to ask for balance for it, its not meant to be.

in spvp you require more awareness then the target your killing

and as for what you do as a mesmer, your telling me there is NO skill on any weapon set or any utility skill that can deal with a stealthed thief? or are you telling me that your spec you made is entirely target required and single target focused? there is a reason all theives take shortbow in there second weapon slot, and its not just cuz of the mobility, its cuz of its AOE

if your entirely single target focused thats a flaw with your spec not with thieves.

i fought a mesmer once, he had a lot of area effect spells, and proceeded to teleport around and cripple me a lot. havent had a chance to play a mesmer much so cant tell you what skills they were.

Mayama.1854:

Wolfe.3097:

@mayama if your talking to me, then you didnt read my post, or your so blinded with thief hate you couldnt comprehend it, at no point did i say 20k burst in 2 seconds was ok or justifiable, i instead outlined how its possible and what the REAL culprits are (assassins signet and 6 stacks of fury combo, plus more probably)

take a breath, regain some of your unbias logic, and try again

I meant the general attitude of some people on this forum that think its ok that such burst even exists.

meh, its not hard to see some people try to justify it (at least for me) but ya, its simply too much.

GankSinatra.2653:

Thiefs arent ridiculous in duels.

Our argument is ‘thiefs just run to somebody and press the same button a few times and do stupid damage i cant ever do while trying 10x harder’.

Why are you trying to debunk it by saying we’re bad players in duels? its unrelated and something to make yourselves feel better. Give us a counterargument to when we say ‘you can play a thief with more effectively with 2 buttons than any other class’.

Also you guys might walk up to enemies completely unstealthed and in the open, but the good thiefs dont. They are also more than happy to instantly jump to you in a teamfight, and if at 75% hp with low endurance probably whipe you out instantly while you spent all that effort on surviving, all with 1 or 2 buttons. Stop arguing that one shotting and button spamming (no matter how infrequent against pro players as you suggest) is a cool game mechanic.

Its 2012 guys this stuff doesnt belong in MMO’s anymore.

first you should probably quote the person or reference the name of the person your replying too, makes debating easier.

for myself, i never mentioned duels, i mentioned tpvp (where they want to focus there balance)

i also agreed that doing that much damage in 2 seconds isnt right…however, 2 things must be maintained…the knowledge of how that damage came to be, and that thieves, even if there burst is nerfed, needs enough burst to be considered the mobility/burst damage focused melee class, because thst what they are supposed to be.

as for the damage, again, i addressed it, backstab even with lots of AP doesnt hit that hard (as in, as hard as people have been saying), it starts hitting that hard when you start damage stacking to insane degrees, and then use assassins signet (150% more damage on next attack)

the problem isnt with backstab itself, the problem is with the ways we can buff that single hit.

Shomaruki.7395:

^Wolfe I’m going to give you the same offer I tell everyone else. I want to see you dodge something in stealth near you. Unless you a physic I don’t see it happening. The duration of PW is longer then duration of dodge.

As for any other classes, I’ve walked away from 3v1 battles simply playing cripple clone warfare.

wtf…why are you trying to time the dodge when we are in stealth? you dodge for the movement, you dodge AWAY from where we stealtehd, you create room, stealth lasts 3-4 seconds, all you have to do is make room.

also like i said, doesnt matter if PW duration is longer then dodge, you dont dodge in place, you dodge AWAY from the ROOTED PW thief, so even if its duration is longer, your not in the hit box anymore.

so you won 1v3? you vs 3 enemies? wow you must be extremely skilled…oh wait…this is the forums, skill doesnt exist, if you 1v3 someone you must be OP

yes there is a difference, too bad most forum goers dont see it, they froth at the mouth like kitten flexing self entitled bullymongers and just want something to kill.

sorrow.2364:

Wolfe.3097:

if stealth ended when the thief got hit, then it would be completly useless. any class could simply lay down some form of aoe and pop us up the moment we stealth. any random tick of aoe even unintended for us would knock us out of stealth. it wouldnt just nerf it, it would make it, useless.

and thieves do use there utility skills! good ones anyways. head shot isnt for killing, but it stops stomps (incredibly useful) and a well timed interrupt is veyr helpful. in fact any decent pistol whip thief uses a utiltiy skill every single time they pistol whip, they steal, they infiltrator strike, shadow step, devourer venom, basilisk venom, etc

im not trying to be mean, but what your saying is flat out wrong, now, you can argue that its not enough, that pw is still OP (imo quickness is OP) and thats fine, but dont come here with false information and spread it (thieves only using there damage skill)…i mean ya, bad ones might, but any with a tactical brain in there heads knows its a horriblly ineffective way to play

You misunderstood me. I meant that thieves have actually 5 weapon skills, but they use only 1-2, I was not talking about utilities. To burst down a target with any other profession, you need a combination of autoattack, burst skills and other weapon skills, thieves actually use only Pistol Whip or Heartseeker because they are more than enough to kill a target. Who uses Black Powder on a pistol whip build? Who uses Death Blossom or Dancing Daggers when you have Heartseeker that is more than enough?
I mean, does a Thief need to know when to use Death Blossom to be effective? Does he need to know when to use Dancing Daggers when you have Heartseeker which is enough as a gap closer and damage dealer?
Spamming is always a good enough tactic on thieves and, since it doesn’t require any skill to do that, that’s because thieves are wrong in my opinion.

About Stealth, what I said doesn’t makes Stealth so useless. Maybe when you’re hit by an AoE you shouldn’t pop out of stealth, but when you are struck by a weapon hit, you should pop out of Stealth or at least the damage must be shown to let the attacker know you spotted the Thief. As it is now, Stealth is overpowered and I hope you agree with me.

see again, thieves have auto attack and a burst skill, we have no other weapon skills for damage, they are all utility based and as such are situational.

another issue you seem to be having is the mindset that “if it doesnt help the thief score a kill, why bother?” in true team play (what this is supposed to be about) hell to the yes would black powder be used by that S/P thief. it offers GREAT group support in melee range (plus blinding your target even if its out of the radius) and can help with finishing downed players or protecting your own downed players.

dancing daggers i use cuz sometimes, you dont want to be up next to that ranger running to his 6 teamates…but you do want to slow him down in hope that your teamates kill him, not too mention it will hit other enemies if they are close enough.

death blossom is simple, are you out of endurance? do you have 5 or more initiative? use death blossom to dodge incoming attack

also being effective is a broad term you should probably elaborate on.

if you mean being effective as in hotjoin spvp and with the sole goal of getting a kill, then sure a lot of the time they dont need to know when to use death blossom.

however, all this shows is the thiefs unfortanetly low skill floor, a skilled thief will be that much more of a threat cuz he utilized death blossom to survive longer and continue the fight, vs the spammer who died 6 seconds ago cuz he ran out of endurance but had a full ini bar.

it is NOT always a good enough tactic, to say that shows ignorance.

i flat out disagree with you on stealth being OP, i agree its bugged, needs addressing, will in effect “nerf” stealth just by fixing bugs.

the one thing i think could maybe be changed is thieves hitting stealth skills back to back before they run out to keep stealthed longer…maybe make it so the revealed debuff applies automaticallya fter those 3 or 4 seconds (or longer with shadow refuge, only spell that can do it longer, and only if you stay within its radius).

and as for thieves being seen when hit, the most id say is some sort of visual indicator that your weapon struck something, not numbers above where my head is, not a big indicator saying THE THIEF IS RIGHT HERE…maybe something like a little spark or a noise or something. and thats only if i conceded to you, which i dont, just giving out something i think id be ok with in the long run.

GankSinatra.2653:

Wolfe.3097:

heres what i have to say to this thread, and hte posters in it.

anet said they are gonna balance around Tpvp (not spvp and NOT WVWVW)

so unless your copmlaint about pvp involves tpvp…shove it where the sun dont shine please

Luckily most tournament teams are running with either 2 mesmers and 2 guardians plus 1 of the other, huh. I cant even remember a game where the premade team didnt have 1 of both, while i certainly cant say the same for eles, necros and rangers. That is just as valid an observation as the OP playing a Thief and being amazed at its potential when picked up half an hour ago.

But ofcourse your personal experience will wildly differ. I wonder in what unrelated way you will downplay this. Maybe that i have bad eyesight and my eyes need to learn 2 play?

the only thing i say is that just cuz something is hard to beat as a noob or as a unorganized group, doesnt exactly hold true for competetent players or coordinated groups.

now this doesnt absolve or “downplay” the possiblity that theya re simply OP in some way, its meant to show that its possible that them being OP might not be entirely true, at least not in every way these forums claim.

however i know a thief in hotjoin spvp and a thief in premade tpvp are VERY different ballgames, suddenly countering that thief is extremely viable way and there OPness seems vastly lessened.

if your seeing a lot of tpvp thieves, its probably cuz people try to apply there findings of hotjoin spvp to tpvp, not too mention that tpvp can be pugged too

so glad to see people getting good results with this build!

for coordinated pvp its still one of my favorites. tho currently im using a spvp zerg friendly build with more damage (relies more on black powder)

honestly lot of testing went into it, i dont see the 33% mroe speed in stealth as replaceable, vs a competent player you downright NEED that speed to get in for your backstabs.

and as for the 20+ in acrobatics, pain response man, pain reponse, you need that like a fat kid needs cake, along with dodges removing cripple/weakness

i switched over to dagger/pistol form dagger/dagger too, love black powder even if its more expensive to get into stealth…might not be for this build tho.

i also am actually kinda glad for shadow arts being the healing stats…it helps with shadows rejuvination a lot! as wella s our stealth heal.

the added toughness from acro im unsure…im sure it helps the build be a bit tougher vs direct damage.

but again, super happy to see everyone liking this build, feel free to post back with your findings and opinions.

honestly…i have no stun breaker lmao

dagger/pistol (shadow shot doesnt stunbreak i believe)

stealth heal

shadow refuge, runspeed signet, and another signet (forget which one tho, doh)

Shomaruki.7395:

Most people have their issue set on one thief. You know 1v1 then it goes stealth..shank shank you dead.

We all know about PW’s Thief uses and how much it stings with the right build. Again I’m trying to tie something together cause…what if there is more then One thief?
Picture a full party of them, all using stealth and then next thing you know it’s time to play party spin. I can’t see any group surviving that. Even if you had a full party, I’m sure ALL of you are not going to stun each and every target.
You surely won’t turn around and run cause your back is turned..(Hint hint…from behind.)

Dare someone to say dodge, cause dodge only evades a single attack. >_> Anyone seeing what I’m getting at here. Can’t really find the right words on it….English isn’t the best when it comes to summing it up.

Trying to clear it up.

Where we see ONE thief as a problem… A party of them would be like throwing a baby into a pit of lions….It’s not going to end well.

dodge doesnt evade a single attack, it evades every attack for the duration of the dodge animation, and it moves you

get it right, i cant see a group surviving 8 of any one class..

imagine 8 2handed hammer warriors…good luck ever doing anything

the game is never gonna be balanced around WvWvW so why bother bringing it up?

bwillb.2165:

Wolfe.3097:

bwillb.2165:

Wolfe.3097:

that would not be fair! are you high? the entier point of stealth is being unseen, damage numbers above your head? you mine as well be targetable too

if a stray bullet hits you, you’re gonna lose some blood on the floor

ah the realism argument, in that case a warrior cannot swing a greatsword as fast as 100 blades

magic isnt real therefore necros/elementals shouldnt exist outright

my skill headshot should probably oneshot people

etc

Not so much realism as common sense. If someone’s spraying projectiles in an area and one hits something invisible, they’re probably going to notice that. If we were going to go with a realism argument, you could just say that if someone looks directly at the thief they lose stealth. especially if they’re in spiky, colorful armor.

in this case they are the same, common sense a warrior cant swing a weapon that fast, common sense magic doesnt exist, etc…

my point was, trying to use common sense and/or realism in a game that has to be balanced is rediculous and shouldnt even be mentioned.

@mayama if your talking to me, then you didnt read my post, or your so blinded with thief hate you couldnt comprehend it, at no point did i say 20k burst in 2 seconds was ok or justifiable, i instead outlined how its possible and what the REAL culprits are (assassins signet and 6 stacks of fury combo, plus more probably)

take a breath, regain some of your unbias logic, and try again

Khenzy.9348:

Once the nerfs come around…

…Just wait before people start complaining about Bleed thieves spamming LDB+ (OP) caltrops/on dodge and Thieves with Sword/Dagger with mesmer runes spamming daze. Fun times ahead, we will have this Thief plague for a while.

Also, condition (+duration) with confusion stacking Mesmer. Try it.

There’s a long way for this game to be considered mostly balanced or even Esport level.

yes every aspect of thief is OP, at no point is it a L2Play issue.

ive played LDB build for example, if it ever stops moving its dead outright, and ive played against LDB thieves as a stealth based backstab spec (worst possible spec vs this spec as a thief) and killed it, simply cuz i knew the aiblities and knew how best to counter them with my spec. it wasnt easy, as i said, i had the worst possible spec to fight his as a thief.

for pvp? it counters thieves pretty well, we have very few ways to remove conditions and they stilla ffect us while we are in stealth (where we are trying to avoid damage)

heres what i have to say to this thread, and hte posters in it.

anet said they are gonna balance around Tpvp (not spvp and NOT WVWVW)

so unless your copmlaint about pvp involves tpvp…shove it where the sun dont shine please

if stealth ended when the thief got hit, then it would be completly useless. any class could simply lay down some form of aoe and pop us up the moment we stealth. any random tick of aoe even unintended for us would knock us out of stealth. it wouldnt just nerf it, it would make it, useless.

and thieves do use there utility skills! good ones anyways. head shot isnt for killing, but it stops stomps (incredibly useful) and a well timed interrupt is veyr helpful. in fact any decent pistol whip thief uses a utiltiy skill every single time they pistol whip, they steal, they infiltrator strike, shadow step, devourer venom, basilisk venom, etc

im not trying to be mean, but what your saying is flat out wrong, now, you can argue that its not enough, that pw is still OP (imo quickness is OP) and thats fine, but dont come here with false information and spread it (thieves only using there damage skill)…i mean ya, bad ones might, but any with a tactical brain in there heads knows its a horriblly ineffective way to play

on my thief build (dagger/pistil+shortbow) i run 30 critical strikes (source of high damage for most thief specs), 30 shadow arts (stealth effects), and 10 trickery (party boons on steal use)

i have about 2.7-2.8k attack total (all stats added together), pure glass cannon thieves only have maybe 400 more at most (3.2k)

i also have about 1.9k-2k armor and about 18k hp, 50% crit chance

do you think i get 14k backstabs? HELL NO, not even on glass cannon mesmers (tho i might manage 8k on them).

but why is my backstabs so much lower then these other thieves even tho i have somewhat similar attack power?

damage stacking, they take traits and skills all designed to maximize damage in that one moment, that one backstab.

assassins signet, when used, 150% more damage on next attack, that right there can turn 6k into 9k, 10k into 15k, you get the idea

then you can have the trait that when you activate any signet, you get 5 stacks of might for 5 seconds, 5…tho it only lasts 5 seconds thats a nice amount.

you can also get one more stack if you trait into thrill of the crime for steal.

assassins signet i think is a 1 min cd so 48 if traited for it.

basically when assassins signet and steal are not up, this thief is a slightly harder hitting, much worse defensively version of me, i hit hard, but within a rather reasonable area i think.

yes i think its stupid we can do it, but the problem isnt the base damage of backstab, its damage stacking

the thief spell haste (or quickness in general) does need looking at

pistol whip without quickness tho imo is fine, most id suggest is remove the stun and remove the self root

labotimy.2439:

tOss.9024:

“Nerf it, don’t make me play”
I’ve been lurking these forums for quite some time now, and I’ve noticed an unsettling trend among some of the players that come here. (Note: Some -not all) A lot of players do not want to learn their opponents’ skills, traits, and methods of play, this leads to the nerf it outcry we see all to often plaguing the forums. HB, HS, and bunker guardians are prime examples here. HS, is not a preferable skill in most situations, however, it’s high damage output draws our attention in a much sharper manner than those caltrops you’re trampling on. Then, your frustration makes you forget that he just dumped his initiative, and now has down-time. Now, you’re upset and you visit the forums.(perhaps even to learn how to counter them) This is where “confirmation bias” kicks in. There may be a couple threads in your class forums explaining how to counter this, however, you also see threads following your initial train of thought regarding HS.That is, “OMG SO OP; BS.”

TL;DR /Summary: There are methods to overcoming obstacles presented by each encounter, though we are much inclined to accept an explanation correlating with our original assumption.

X class does Y “better.” than X^2; why play X^2?(balance)

Personally, I find an exceptional strike of balance in GW2, and certainly better than most MMOs on release. I feel players are looking situations wrong. To better explain, I often see the Mesmer vs. Necro comparison(or necro vs. any other profession) in regards to conditions. But, people often fail to realize that classes are wonderfully diverse, not only in the general sense(ie spells, animation, etc) but, in what they DO with said examples. A thief/warrior might stack bleeds more effectively than a necro, however, a necro has much better control over conditions.

TL;DR: While it may seem that other classes are “better” at a particular job, consider other things they can do within this job. Conditions for example, class X applies faster, but class x^2 may control them better.

-Discuss, offer an argument should you not agree. Please, keep it civil.
-I will be including more, should the discussion pick up.

i disagree. mesmers are severely OP, guardians are OP, thief and warrior burst is a little over the top and burst NEVER EVER promotes good gameplay.

also i main guardian lvl 80, and play mesmer war and guard in spvp and tpvp and have been rank 20 twice, once in beta and now.

IMO 20% longer phantasm cooldowns, removal of target stealth stripping, and a reduction in CC would go a long way for mesmer balance.

Guardians need retaliation duration to be toned down again, 100% retal uptime is unreal even after nerfs, also full heal even with the stability nerf(does not stop a sup guard from getting it off minus moa) needs a value nerf as in should heal for 50% max hp.

warrior and thief burst is pretty easy thing imo to balance, simply reducing base damage of certain burst abilities: HB, back stab, etc and increasing the base damage of other abilities in the weapon set would go a long way. it would nerf burst while promoting similar dpm from sustain.

what would you buff damagewise for thief? sword mainhand we have pistol whip (what you want nerfed), auto attack, i could see shifting more damage to autoattack, not engaging but whatever. next we have infilatrator strike…that wont promote anything, its a utility skill. then we have head shot…that wont promote anything, its used soley for interrupting spells. then we have black powder, that wont promote anything, its used for the blind field.

dagger offhand, buff dancing dagger? nope, thats for cripple, buff cloak and dagger? nope thats for stealth

dagger mainhand, buff HS? LOL ya right, buff death blossom? nope, thats for evading or condition damage specs (whom dont have burst anyways)

if your not getting it by now, thieves…by design, only have one real damage move per weapon set, spreading damage to our utility moves wont make a smart player use them more often then they need to be used, unless you over buff them, then you have an overpowered skill that does too much.

people suggesting thief changes without understanding the class /sigh

its proof that nobodies gonna be happy until thieves are unplayable in a competitive level and impossible on a noob level

@Nyypsy, thieves honestly dude, dont have that option (3 hit combo), each weapon set of a thief has one main damage move, and the rest are utility.

Psychrome.9281:

heartseeker isnt the problem ability although it does hit pretty hard, its the Backstab spec that is the insane damage ability if specd properly heartseeker is no different than hundred blades easily avoidable…backstab is not avoidable its from stealth and can 1 shot anyone with less than 15k hp and 2 shot anyone with less than 20k …that is broken, imbalanced and has no counter. the only redeeming factor is that it is positional …but for anyone that has any basic concepts of positioning this is a one swing kill

if you see a thief stealth…why are you still standing there? why have you not moved? cricled? strafed? why would you let me stealth, let me walk behind you, and hit your back?

if your argument is u didnt notice the thief stealth, thats a problem with your awareness, not the thief.

id rather see damage stacking removed, im 30 points int crit, 30 into shadow arts and 10 into trickery, fairly glass cannon stealth based build, i never get anywhere near 15k backstab crits.

this is because i dont take all the damage stacking effects that BUFFS that one hit to a stupid degree.

my backstab hits hard, its useful, however its not a 1shot. so instead of nerfing backstab directly, maybe a nerfing to those traits that allow damage to get that high? skills too?

sorrow.2364:

Wolfe.3097:

dude the 2 seconds from my haste proc is sometimes enough for my autoattack to kill someone, or take nearly half there hp in the least.

quickness is seriously OP

and just cuz you dont like fighting vs stealth doesnt mean stealth is unbalanced, it has some bugs, but once those are fixed it will be fine.

Well, I’m just pointing out what in my opinion makes Thief so OP and these two things are damage and stealth. Get real, Stealth is the most effective defensive mechanic in the game and make it great also when not traited is a non-sense in terms of balancing.

Well, I don’t know which autoattack do you have, but usually 2 seconds of quickness aren’t really enough to kill someone without the huge damage the Thief now has. For example, if Thief with Pistol Whip would make 3-4k damage, there is no way to kill someone with just a quickness combo and, also, will let the thieves to practice more to get a kill instead of just do 3 spamming.

first i run Dagger/Pistol currently.

dodging or any kind of evade or immunity is actually the best defense in the game, stealth is a distant second as you can be hit by any non target required skill, aoe. condition damage still affects you (and is one of the best ways to counter a thief, especially a thief who stealths a lot), and CC still affects the thief. the problem is the bugs that stealth currently has.

you can make our damage kitten, we will still “spam 3” or whatever our damage skill is to get a kill.

people seem to assume thieves have more then one viable damage skill per weapon set, we dont. its our damage skill, and our utiltiy skills.

that would not be fair! are you high? the entier point of stealth is being unseen, damage numbers above your head? you mine as well be targetable too

highest initiative to damage ability? proof you dont play thief.

there is no highest initiative to damage ability, there is our damage ability, and our utility skills.

also stealth lasts 3-4 seconds, how are they getting away in that time? only thing i can think is they go around a corner and hope you dont find them?

also condition damage, its the thieves arguably greatest weakness. stealth only makes us go invisible, it doesnt remove all conditions and put us back tp full hp while giving us super speed.

for thief getting away you have to understand our initiative is only tied to our weapon sets, our dodging, and healing/elite/utility skills are still Cd based. so after initiative we have 2-6 dodges still (depending on traits and utiltiy skills), shortbow for when ini regens, non ini cost stealth and dodge type skills that have Cd’s.

Im not gonna argue initiative regen, as i havent delved into it enough to make a informed argument about it. maybe thats where the nerf needs to be, maybe not /shrug.

but initiative is only half our skills.

but another question, outside of WvWvW when do you have thieves running away? I was never good at this mentality, the most ive ever ran away was to the next objective.

not too mention that if they are running away, they arent doing anything for there team.

i dunno, i never run away in pvp, tho i dont WvWvW, but at the same time WvWvW is not really ever gonna be close to balanced, anet has said that themselves.