Guild Wars 2

Animosity.5231:

Except with Haste that .5 stun is more than enough to lock someone down until they’re dead?

oh, so once every 60 seconds we can dominate then? ive used pistol whip, its not for me, but guess what, its easy as pie to dodge, takes quite a bit of practice on landing it, roots you, very short stun, and if we pair it with haste, we usually die after as we have no endurance to dodge ourselves.

haste+PW is gimmicky, but PW alone isnt.

and lol at 15 second CD, you obviously dont know how thieves work if you suggested that

OP your entire post is assuming that elementalists are not UP themselves, not defending mesmer, just saying, some perspective that prevents bandwagoning would be welcome

im sure there are aspets of each that are OP, but there are also aspects of each (and other classes even moreso) that are UP

let the meta mature a bit will ya? ifyou do more then likely counters will arrive as players start to actually experiment and start thinking critically. if you keep kneejerk nerfing just cuz you see a lot of them or your spec doesnt do well against them the game will never achieve any semblance of balance. it will just alternate between OP and UP classes from here till eternity

whether the ability was too strong or not, there reason for nerfing it was forum outcry. why? cuz the game hasnt been out long enough for the meta to mature, and even without that HS spam specs only dominated the lowest common denominator, the bad player (tho many assume they are above avg). a good player stomped them, it was rolled endlessly in tournament play, and it was near useless in wvwvw, it had ONE area where it worked, and that was hotjoin spvp.

Anet quite simply are responsible for nerfing too soon due to bad players complaints. i HAD faith in them, it is now shaken, tho not completly gone.

and no im not a bad thief that spammed HS, i personally enjoy backstab builds

edit: and the post alcopaul linked is sad to read, as that is exactly the OPPOSITE of what they did with HS.

say one thing, do another

emtwo.4058:

Wolfe.3097:

i just use it to get into stealth and maybe close a small gap.

This is exactly my point. They nerfed one of the only damaging abilities we have into a utility ability. So yes, it still has utility, but CnD will get you into stealth for less initiative and you still have no reliable way of doing burst or extended damage aside from autoattack or a pure condition build.

i think you need to rethink your idea on specs. my D/P build melts people, backstab is a viable use, and D/P gives me more survivabiilty and 1v1 potential then D/D.

in fact i often just autoattack some people to death as my autoattack is powerful enough to do so (tho warriors and guardians dont fall as easily of course).

i love CnD, and i got pretty good at landing it, but i found BP just offered me more in the long run even if tis a bit more ini intensive when you land CnD (6vs4) but when you miss CnD you waist 6 ini, dont get stealth, meanwhile i never can miss with BP>HS.

but this isnt really a post to discuss the pros and cons between builds as much as i enjoy debating them, its to help educate people why thieves play the way they do!

@skolops, i agree to a point, tho i never abused HS, i found backstab builds to be a nice risk vs reward playstyle with lots of positioning and juking. i think the combat may be more simplistic but im ok with that, means i can focus my attention better on other aspects of the game.

honestly i think elementalists need some help, they may hate thieves (or many seem to) but honestly they are slightly UP i feel, at least in some ways.

emtwo.4058:

I agree with you completely. Especially now, since the HS nerf, it feels like HS is just an autoattack that costs initiative. It’s basically only useful as a utility skill to catch up to fleeing enemies.

truthfully i dont have a big issue with the HS nerf as it is, it hits for ok when below 50% and still hits hard below 25%, above 50% i just use it to get into stealth and maybe close a small gap.

I constantly see this complaint against thieves “they just spam one attack”

there are multiple reasons for this. but one major one

each rogue weapon set only has one damage move aside from autoattack!

D/D=heart seeker+backstab (tho backstab cannot really be spammed, and heart seeker does very poor damage until target is below 50% hp) if power geared, death blossom if condition specced, other attacks, dancing dagger…cripple, cloak and dagger for backstab setups

D/P=heart seeker+backstab, other attacks, shadow shot for gap closing, head shot for spell interrupts, black powder for blind/combo

P/P=unload, other attacks, body shot for vuln for party, head shot, black powder

S/D=flanking (tho its rarely used for the damage, more of a autoattack/daze spec) infultrator strike for mobility, dancing dagger, CnD

S/P=pistol whip, other attacks, you get the idea

P/D=has no real burst, but it has decent bleed stacking with its stealth attack, other attacks, you get the idea

you think its “cheap” or “gimmicky” for us to use one attack repeatedly, but thats what the thief is intended to do. its just that things like 8v8 spvp and wvwvw encourages zerging so instead of using all your skills like in smaller scale pvp/tourneys, you see thieves traiting for dumping there damage skill then running away.

for example, my fav weapon set is D/P. i get in melee range, lay down black powder as it A) negates enemy attacks for its duration other then aoe andsets me up to combo into stealth using HS, which while costing 2 more initiative then just using CnD, is gauranteed to get me stealth regardless of HS hitting anybody. then i try to get in for a backstab. I use headshots for obvious animations but mainly to interrupt executes, and blackpowder is great for executing someone else. it offers decent support without me sacraficing too much initiative to do damage. it excels in protecting executes, executing, and 1v1….tho it has no aoe whatsoever and is somewhat ini intensive regardless of you using your skills for utility or damage.

so tell me oh wise ones, for most if not all weapon sets of a thief, what damage move rotation are we supposed to do? my black powder and headshot do almost no damage. my shadow shot does about as much damage as my third autoattack. my HS does very low damage unti targets reach 50% hp (where its about as hard hitting as CnD).

quite simply, if i want to kill anyone i have to abuse autoattack+backstab, and my only other attack is HS when target gets low enough.

its a similar situation for the other weapon sets.

every mmo has a scapegoat

thief is that scapegoat

we are gonna be nerfed into oblivion cuz anet does kneejerk nerfs witout letting te meta evolve

if you dont let the meta evolve it will never stabalize

im hating how people in these threads are starting to call things gimmick as a blanket term for anything they dislike that they think is cheesy. its to the point where if you take this forums definition of gimmick, it could apply to nearly everything in this game.

heart quests gimmick

elites are a gimick

dungeons are a gimmick

endgames a gimmick

pvp is a gimmick

every freaking class have gimmick upon gimmick upon gimmick

[quote[i’ve played Dagger+Pistol alot actually. I do like the build. It has alot of good things about it. Very high single target damage, kinda tanky due to Black Powder, and excellent gap closing.

Its a respectable weapon set to be sure but I still prefer Dagger+Dagger. It just Backstabs way better (has Cloak and Dagger after all) and Death Blossom is great; decent damage even if you don’t stack condition damage, insane damage if you do.

as much as i like black powder i eventually just dropped the off-hand pistol. its just a matter of performance for me. i get more kills and cap more points as Dagger+Dagger. results don’t lie. maybe its just my playstyle, but the difference for me was really noticeable.[/quote]

i cant figure out why people are saying this! ive tried it both ways (heavy condition, heavy power) and DB is useless outside of its evasion mechanic for a power build, any damage you do is better served in a backstab or autoattack. ive tested in on target golems, the clas npcs and actually in pvp matches, results are the same, its not worth using in a power build unless you really need that dodge.

playstyle may be a factor tho for you, i switched FROM D+D to D+P and my avg glory and K/D ratio went up by a very noticeable bit. 30 crit, 30 stealth, 10 trickery, thieves guild, shadow meld, shadow refuge, runspeed signet, power signet

metaphorm i cant help but disagree with ya man, ya D/P has no aoe damage, but its black powder fields are a major pain when used right.

in fact since ive went 30 crit, 30 stealth, 10 trickery for a DP build, my performance has skyrocketed..a case of paper says one thing actual play says another?

weird, i love throw gunk

ive done LDB unicorn builds, they are fun, but again, they are imo gimmmicky and i prefer power builds for straight up damage, at least in pvp.

also for dagger/pistol is fine, if you can keep BP up you can stand in it and tank most melee mobs fine.

tho PVE i do tend to go the condition route, if only cuz im finding it easier to kill things atm

when i steal i poison my target for 10 seconds, deal damage, regen initiative, adn give myself and my part fury, might, and swiftness for 10 seconds, i i traited it further it would stealth me and give me 5 initiative and give me vigor+take two enemy boons and give them to me.

im fine with steal

a weak class complaining about more powerful classes

ive seen nothing but “my class sucks, x y and z is OP NERF”

tiz sad really.

4/10 you combined some honest problems, but in the end its just a raging warrior who wants faster hammers

Fury.6248:

Heartseeker is currently bugged. Alot of the attacks are missing for no reason. It was hardly even nerfed. It has no noticeable difference to any decent thief using D/D.

20% damage reduction?

and now you need the threshold at 25% for its maximum damage potential

ya its been nerfed lol

Vexus.5423:

Black Powder makes all enemy attacks within it miss. So Warriors turn into flailing Wiffle -ball hitters. It also applies Projectile Blind to enemy targets outside the AOE, so you can cast it in the ‘back ranks’ and see friendly players apply blind to their target. It does not stop incoming ranged attacks, or AOE, unless of course the target is inside.

im glad my fav weapon set is better in pvp then i originally thought.

i knew it said that in the description, it just didnt say blind for x seconds in the tooltip, so i was a bit confused.

and i knew about the HS but thanks

kinda a interesting build i stumbled upon 25 deadly/30 critical/15 tricks. basically you steal>blind>auto, save your initiative for black powder and headshot, and HS when target is low.

how exactly does Black powder work? asking cuz i always assumed like ankitten that it gave up a blind, but it doesnt say that in the tooltip, says it lasts 4 seconds.

asking cuz for the hell of it today i went D/P with a quirky power build largely to exploit autoattack. and i pretty much auto’d people till 25% while keeping black powder up…was owning everyone it seemed, even tanked the forest animals by myself with nothing but autoattack and black powder, only took 1/4 of my hp orb doing it.

lotus strike lasts 2 seconds, dagger storm isnt D/D specific neither is caltrops.

ive played condition D/D i just tried to callit LDB build cuz it revolves around that almost to the exclusion of utility skills.

how id D/D leaning towards condition damage? the ONLY skill they have that does condition damage is LDB, everything else is power based.

a interesting concept, i like it, tho i wish you had a stun break and a way around cripple.

obtuse.8291:

If you can mitigate that damage with stealth and sustains self healing, pair with shadowstep util to remove some conditions, and being able to make them chase you and since they can’t finish you off it’s not worth it to stay on you, you can soft counter condition damage. We just don’t seem to have a hard counter

shadow step removes them at random, but also breaks stuns, its in my setup atm, as is the heal for burn/bleed/poison condition removal, the trait to remove weakness/cripple when dodging. im sore about not being able to remove chill effects with it but imo the ones listed are more dangerous.

aye it is a challenge.

so far our best heal seems to be the stealth heal, as its our greatest heal (tho longest Cd) and removes burning, bleeding, poison…our only other way is pain response which is on a longer Cd and is automatic which is good in some way and bad in others.

which means our best way to remove cripple/weakness is fleet of foot, tho roll for initiative also removes chill (as does withdraw) but its on a 1min cd.

i was running a 30 stealth/30acro build for regenning hp in stealth (partial defense against conditions) and pain response…but had the same issue you did with low damage.

i need to somehow create a detailed tree/list of each aspects pros and cons and list them by combination to find the mathematically strongest spec, tho there will be specs that do certain things better.

Elan.7523:

Hardest to counter? The hardest thief attack to counter is the one you never saw coming. Beyond that, they are all fairly counterable.

everything in the game is counterable, im asking for the least, again…among other things.

not really looking for philosphical anecdotes tho. or maybe your saying stealth.

Elan.7523:

Ultimately, no matter what setup you go with, there will be predictability. You’re using that as an argument against it, but, honestly it’s a moot point. Just as your weapons dictate your fighting style, so does the enemy’s dictate his. I know a dagger dagger thief is going to be evasive and highly mobile, just as I know that unless I take no action to counter it he’s very likely to do moderate to low outright damage (unless I get low on HP), and is probably geared for condition spec which is counter-able with the right utilities. I know a sword pistol thief is going to be a semi-static fighting style that hits wtf hard if I let him get me locked down, and to counter it I need to anticipate when he will make his move. I know a Pistol Pistol thief will attempt to unload all over me, but I know any projectile reflect or blocking skills (dagger storm) will utterly destroy him.

You’re asking for an all round fantastic setup that avoids predictability. Honestly, I highly doubt such a thing exists. Even among the other classes, you have a feel for what they are trying to do to you based on what they have in their hands.

im using it as an argument against everything, the onlyr eason i havent used it against stealth yet is cuz nobody has come in with a stealth build telling me about how its amazing. and yes to a degree it makes it moot, but far from entirely, as all cons have to be taken into account with the pros of each spec, trait choice, etc. im not asking for complete avoidance to predictability, thats impossible by the very nature of the game. no but i am looking for either hte least predictable, or the hardest to counter, among other things.

i never said stealth ws perfect did I? stealth is all that, its defensive (just look at shadow arts trait line), offensive (backstab by itself points to this), and delays can mean wins if done right.

yes its buggy, sometimes in your favor, sometimes against. and of course PW can kill a stelathed player, PW doesnt require a target and is aoe based, even if it is conal by design.

crappy tho i can only agree from the POV of someone who hasnt takent the time to really evaluate its strengths. its not the best, neither is dodging, which is sorta my point as well.

really every aspect of the thief has to be taken into account sort of at once while thinking about this. you cant htink about one at a time beacuse the time you get to the next section it may tip the scales differently.

weapon sets, steal, stealth, dodging, traits, even sigils/runes all need to be taken into account.

Limnatis.2713:

P/P with the right utilities can be used to kite like crazy… Just taking the Caltrops utility is enough in a 1v1 fight…. If your enemy isnt melee then just get up and close and kill him with you other weapon set of choice (i personaly go for S/P but i might change to D/D just for lolz). Every1 has there way of doing things, and what ever rocks your boat should do just fine.

PS: I dont think there is “the best build” or a “ultimate OP build”… It all depends on the player and his skills

i agree its a great kiting build, but this thread isnt about the best kiting build. really the word “best” isnt even accurate in itself for what im looking for.

and even the best build will be beaten by a inferior one if the player using it is better.

doesnt change that i know there is a build that has more pros and fewer cons then any other, and thats what im looking for. it may not be a build for everyone as people have there own reasons for liking something. but its there.

Korochun.5862:

Wolfe.3097:

Korochun.5862:

Initiative regenerates while you use it, dude. With 55% crit you will literally get back one initiative for every sustained second of your Unloads, then mix in Quick Recovery and you are looking at about 4.8 sustained Unloads. Meaning you have to wait the length of one dodge to get enough initiative for a fifth. If you Steal, Kleptomaniac will give you everything you need to go for a straight five.

Roll for Initiative doesn’t even enter the picture here unless you really have it out for someone.

4.8 is still 4 until you get to 5. so 3-4 like i said. even so i now know your gonna dodge all over and possibly even run away for a moment, unless you want to die, and also unload doesnt give you evasion like PW does or LDB, another factor to consider.

really the combination of ranged damage negation, no avoidance on unload, and your build having no defense against condition damage really breaks it for me as a B-B+ build across the board.

You can cancel an unload into a dodge any time, y’know. You also move while you do it. It’s actually one of the most mobile high-damage skills in the game. And no, 4.8 is not a 4. In real combat you will maneuver around: dodge, evade, set up a better angle of fire. During which time your initiative will regen.

Honestly, what you’ve been saying here so far is “P/P is predictable because you’re going to shoot them, and then they will know, and it will magically make your bullets not work”, while your arguement for PW is that “it’s predictable because you are going to stab them, and then they will know, and MAGIC”. Try out new things. You might be pleasantly surprised.

canceling a unload means waisitng 5 initiative, another strike against it. and just cuz you can move doesnt negate you from taking damage either.

and i agree with the second part of that paragraph, so why did you list 5-6 unloads earlier as if you were standing there “unloading” so to speak? bleh, probably just vacuum speak taken out of context my bad.

and i havent said P/P is predictable for that reason, i said a dodge thief is predictable because when they arent attacking there only defensive option is to dodge. it really wasnt about P/P specifically.

EVERY spec has its cons, i know this, im essentially looking for the best deal, again, most mathematical pros with the fewest cons.

a pure burst build is weak without its Cd’s

a pure survivabl build has low damage

a LDB build has no utiltiy and no real burst

Im looking for enough damage to be a threat, enough survival to well…survive (and that in itself requires multiple things being covered in this game), and enough utility to be of real benefit to the group. and no, im not gonna argue killing stuff as utilty :P

Elan.7523:

I’ve easily done 4 pistol whips in a row before. If you connect on a player, you really only need two. Init on crit + infil signet. Even without the signet, three is easily obtainable with room to escape.

Remember, like unload in the post above me, you gain ini while doing your skill anyways. There is no fantastic generalist configuration. If you want to do something well, you need to spec for it. Otherwise you just do several things good (and hopefully good enough) that you can actually be a threat.

even when hasted and with low ping i couldnt get 3 hasted pistol whips, and even if i did i usually died before the second one finished.

but your second part, thats wort of the idea. “good enough” im not looking to be omg uber in one dimension, but strong enough in each dimension that im still a threat while maintaining diversity.

Korochun.5862:

Wait. So sitting around backfield with a shortbow makes you unpredictable now?

Wow. I’ve been doing it all wrong this whole time.

lol again your stretching my words sir! whats predictable is knowing your gonna dodge after you use your damage. you have no real other option then to die.

however saying a thief using his weapon set as its supposed to is also predictable in a way, but thats cuz the thief class only has one real damage move per weapon set. no but if i run out of initiative or if someone gets in melee range, i want more options then “i can dodge now” think about it. i can stealth and they assume im backstabbed spec most likely, they prepare accordingly, but what if im more then that? i could have dodges too, its harder to counter your opponent when you dont know there next offensive/defensive option.

but again, predictability is one facet of the discussion, and i think your getting hung up on the idea of me bashing your build, im not really, youve already said it works great for you.

Korochun.5862:

Initiative regenerates while you use it, dude. With 55% crit you will literally get back one initiative for every sustained second of your Unloads, then mix in Quick Recovery and you are looking at about 4.8 sustained Unloads. Meaning you have to wait the length of one dodge to get enough initiative for a fifth. If you Steal, Kleptomaniac will give you everything you need to go for a straight five.

Roll for Initiative doesn’t even enter the picture here unless you really have it out for someone.

4.8 is still 4 until you get to 5. so 3-4 like i said. even so i now know your gonna dodge all over and possibly even run away for a moment, unless you want to die, and also unload doesnt give you evasion like PW does or LDB, another factor to consider.

really the combination of ranged damage negation, no avoidance on unload, and your build having no defense against condition damage really breaks it for me as a B-B+ build across the board.

Elan.7523:

I think you overstate the Sword Pistol serviceability issues. You have steal, regardless of build, and want to use it for the thrill of the crime buffs anyways. You also have a root skill built into 2.

Without investing even so much as devourer venom for the immobilization, all you need to do is tap pistol whip and immediately afterwards steal. The dubiously hard part here is making sure you’re actually in steal range before you hit pistol whip or you just potentially killed yourself.

If they move partway through your PW, immediately step into them with IS and repeat. Or, if the situation calls for it, invert the order of steal and infiltrator’s strike so you can hit someone, then escape ridiculously easily. Keeping in mind you’re invulnerable for the duration that they may be able to attack you when rooted in pistol whip.

I know I regularly employ it in sPvP and WvW with Infiltrator’s Signet, Signet of Agility, and Devourer Venom. In small skirmishes you can put someone down so fast they don’t even get a chance to retaliate.

Quickness on Crit trait and a Quickness on Crit Sigil recommended, so you have no reason to socket Haste and give up your endurance.

ah another poster to add information and perspective!

ive done all you said, believe me. while it works, it also bottlenecks you, and not all specs have thrill o f the crime (tho it is very good). it makes your attacks predictable, your PW is easily avoidable outside of these situations so your gonna use utility skills, dodge, use SB, something other then PW until you can again use said tactics.

also imediatly stepping back into them with IS or steal doesnt really work cuz you have to recast PW, you might hit htem a bit with it, but not the entire thing.

and again your putting soooo many traits/sigils/runes/utilites towards making that one skill work.

one last thing about PW, and this may be some odd anomaly i was experiencing, id time my PW with steal or IS and haste even, in those 4 seconds i would go from full to dead, even if i almost killed 3 people, it was almost, and iw as dead. it does provide some evasion, but there are things that go thru it.

again, its a very useful ability, and im sure the spec works great for you, i had a similar S/P build that worked great for me. but a build working great for you, and a build that maximizes, i mean Min/maximizes the thiefs class pros while minimizing the cons to the best degree possible is what im looking for.

so in order for pistol whip to be effective you have to spend 8 initiative (5 for PW and 3 for infiltrator strike) and to get out of dodge another 2 (10 initiative)?

granted you could start with steal, but then you better be dodging, and if you have points in trickery, you shouldnt be starting with steal. so theres more limitations.

this makes it more initiative intensive then a LDB build! now you could take more utiliies to support it (shadow step, basilisk venom, devourer venom) and certain other traits…but again, im trying to find the spec that requires hte least amount of speccing ot alleviate its weaknesses, so i have more option to spec to increases its strengths. ive used 3 diff pistol whip builds, they all had there pros and cons, and all revolved around traiting to make pistol whipe better (save the venom share version)

so what, ive seen 20k backstabs on elementalists.

also 5 times in a row? unload costs 5, your out of initiative after you cast it 3-4 times with quick recovery and use your roll for initiative, waisint it for evasion purposes potentially to get another one off.

also the idea of at range is largely a moot point for me. cuz again any safety you gain from being away is also segwayed by how easy it is to curb your own offense with the many ways to negate ranged attacks in this game.

while idealy id love a A+ rating in all categories for a build, i know in the end the best im gonna achieve is probably a B-B+ range in all categories, and thats what im looking for.

again, hte most pros for the least cons. your build is highly mobile, does decent ranged damage, it also has no protection vs condition damage.

if they know your gonna dodge, why waist the hammer smash? they have CD’s unlike us remember? so yes, they gain hte advantage, dodge is not a trump all, tho it is very useful.

there has to be some factor, unless maybe unload is considered a channeled spell? i really havent experienced this and most of my thief builds have revolved around stealth in some way.

Korochun.5862:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/en/?fYAQRAsa6alYm6OHcy5E+5Ex2DgmTe6fgs9M4qVB

It’s not like I build exclusively for pistols. They just happen to work well with this build, as you get 20% damage long enough to drop your target to 50%, then Executioner kicks in.

ive used a build similar to this before, i also took the liberty of filling out your gear with divinity runes and the berzerker amulet to better get a idea for possible stats

first, any damage you would do would be higher with a melee build with that spec with minor major trait adjustments

other then that its a dodge heavy build. tho you take withdraw and roll for initiative they both remove cripple, chill, immobilize, you have no way of removing burning, bleeding, poison, or weakness. and unless you take sigil of blood for lifesteal your only healing is from withdraw, meaning your going to go down from conditional damage quite easily with no ways to remove it and one way to mitigate it (the heal). not too mention with the number of dodges you can access im surprised you didnt take fleet of foot to never have to worry about cripple/weakness again.

not too mention the other P/P weakness is the disparity between its autoattack and its unload (dps burst) move, one is conditional reliant the other power/crit. this just dillutes the build further.

its a great kiting build, and im sure it works great for you, i myself have several builds that work great for me as well, thats not what this thread is about tho, its about what setup has the most pros for hte least cons. in the most basic sense.

Korochun.5862:

There is lot of things wrong in that post. For one, P/P is not flawed. It just doesn’t have, y’know, aoe. It’s a single target, high damage long burst DPS build. They absolutely waste anyone unfortunate enough to get caught in the crossfire, if you know how to trait it. But it’s not like you trait for bloody pistols exclusively. You might want to take the 5% pistol damage trait, sure, but that’s more of a personal preference.

I’m surprised you even mention Death Blossom in context of PvP aoe, to be honest, while flat out ignoring Pistol Whip, which is actually our best PvP aoe by far, at least when used intelligently.

Also, no, dodging does not make you predictable. That’s ludicrous. Do you always dodge in one direction? Are you aware that there are skills that allow for more dodging? Signet of Agility will refill your endurance altogether, too.

I’m really not seeing a source for any of your protestations here.

P/P is flawed for much more then lack of aoe friend, i wasnt comparing it directly to shortbow but rather to all the weapon sets, the utility and damage it offers is rather subpar by comparison. its ok if you like it, whether it be personal taste or aesthetics, its fine, but dont kid yourself into thinking its on the low side for power/utility on the weapon sets. its really not high damage, not compared to a backstab/pistol whip builds, and is easily mitigated by the plethora of ranged attack immunities in the game. please understand when is ay its weak, i dont mean just the skills on the bar, i mean how it interacts with our trats, our utilities, and the other skills in the game.

yes pistol whip is aoe, a PBconal aoe. however ive already listed its cons and how it takes more to make it serviceable then other spec designs. DB builds are largely one trick ponies, low hp, low crit, low power, high toughness, high conditional damage, lots of dodges. its fun, hectic, but i wouldnt consider it much for utiltiy or all around effectiveness.

if all you do is attack and dodge, when your done attacking the opponent can therefore correctly assume your going to dodge. it makes you predictable in that sense, and predictableness can be countered more easily. your taking my comment and stretching it a bit.

if you dont thats fine, and ill gladly debate you on here any of the points you bring up and either concede if i find them effective or debate them if i dont. no hard feelings <3

i keep seeing people say other classes are more compelling..why? cuz you press a diff ability every time?

they press a diff ability cuz they HAVE to. there is no compelling nature to it. that is also why other classes have there damage spread across more abliities.

look at a thieves abilities, how much damage does black powder do?

the thief class was DESIGNED with this in mind. instead of going thru your rotation or your next ability cuz you ahve to, you have to make a decision, is my next move gonna be damage…or utility?

just cuz of the zergy nature of spvp and wvwvw we see more spamming of our damage moves then utility.

as for the condition damage build comments…thats a flaw in design or its intended for thieves to be mainly power/crit based. however a conditional damage dodge thief really has little room for anything other than doding and hitting LDB…if they stop they die!

Ruufio.1496:

It IS fundamentally flawed. No traits or skills should affect initiative gain unless it’s on a completely even play field. It is flawed and won’t be changed unfortunately.

wrong, if that were the case, then wed need a complete redesign in the cost of our weapon skills.

Korochun.5862:

Stealth mechanics are pretty bad. If I could have ten copper for every thief I killed by nailing them with a full Unload long after they stealthed, I’d be a very rich man in GW2. It is far less effective as a defensive tool compared to well-timed dodges, plus it does little to enhance your mobility, which I personally feel is key for a thief.

im wondering if this is a lag issue, simply cuz ive never experienced it while stealthed personally.

Korochun.5862:

Anything short of S/D and S/P can be a full mobility build anyhow if you trait it well, and not having a backup weapon to fall onto to actually deal effective burst damage at range is a serious problem if you run a thief that flanks and harasses. I’ll grant that a shortbow is a great group support weapon, especially for a large raid, but people tend to credit it with far more than it realistically does.

i credited it for exactly what it does, good group damage, good comboing, good mobility.

the only other ranged option that we have that “does good damage” is P/P which is such a flawed setup as it is right now i dont see it being worth it.

outside of death blossom and dancing dagger thieves have no real aoe, combine that with its combo potential, ability to self combo, and its ability for mobility i cant help but feel its the best alternate weapon to have in almost any situation other hten maybe pure 1v1. also this thread is trying to avoid traiting into a specific weapon set too far as to make all your traits (or half even) revolve around alleviating the weaknesses of a setup.

we want essentially the best bang for our buck. something that can defend against conditions, avoid damage, be mobile, and deal damage.

many people try to go the pick two of 3 route, resulting in a char that can usually stealth/dodge well and do damage.

but dodges dont always avoid everything, and it makes you predictable (ok, hes out of initiative hes gonna dodge, this is how i deal with that), same thing for stealth.

im toying with a 30 crit/20stealth/20 acro build.

it gets all the damage it needs from 30 crit (30% more crit damage, executioner), it gets longer stealth, it gets dodges that give swiftness and remove cripple (which can destroy some rogues)

my utility skills im still unsure, the heal is the stealth heal, it removes conditions and is our strongest heal on the spot ability. shadow refuge and/or blinding powder for utility/stealth. shadow step for stun break.

ive also decided to make it a backstab build, as its the strongest conditional requirement damage skill we have, costing us nothing but what it takes to set it up. im not set on that, as it has its own weaknesses. tho i find i can alleviate them much easier then say Pistol whips or P/Ds issues, using fewer utility skill slots and traits for it.

Korochun.5862:

For some reason nobody ever takes the vigor after healing trait, which is pure gold, especially in world PvP. I run a 30 crit/25 acro/15 trickery build with withdraw and roll for initiative, and I can literally roll for ten seconds straight. If I don’t like the way the fight is going, Withdraw —> RfI means I’ve just reset the fight far more effectively than if I stealthed. And I’ve still got 7-8 dodges to go, since I’m running signet of agility.

Anyway, that’s pretty academic. You can have those traits, but you’re going to dilute yourself a lot. If you want to be really, really good at the things you do, you pretty much have to pick two. I run high damage and high dodge build, and so far it works quite well for me.

I actually disagree, at least in terms of pvp effectiveness. all you need in pvp is “enough”, if you have enough stealth options and dodge options, its nearly the same as having those 10 dodges, just with different mechanics,a nd if you can still keep the damage up, imo it makes you a more well rounded and unpredictable fighter, no longer can you assume hes gonna just dodge or just stealth, he has the ability (tho not as great as one who focuses in soley one aspect) to do both and still hit hard.

im playing with a 30 crit/20stealth/20acrobatics build. if i take dodge signet i have5 dodges and 3-6 stealths depending on what i put on my action bar and my weapon set.

i do admit tho im missing pain response and shadows rejuvination atm, but iw anted to try for more damage.

i think you misunderstand the purpose of the shortbow. its really not to be used in 1v1

its used in group damage situations for its good aoe damage, self comboing and party combo potential, as well as for its added mobility. you use your other weapon set for 1v1 and most other encounters in pvp really.

basically SB is for when your not being targeted and facing a group, or for running away

Korochun.5862:

Stealth, Dodging, Damage: pick any two.

I’m sorry, but no, you can’t have everything.

well, actually you can to a extent, tho none might be the best the class has to offer, so long as it serves your ends it would be viable id imagine.

you can go 15 in shadow arts and get initiative return and 1 second longer stealths

you can go 20 points in acrobatics and you get 3 dodges (5 with signet), 2 seconds swiftness after dodge, and dodging removing cripple/weakness

then you can go 30 points into critical strikes and get 20% more damage when target is below 50% hp, coupled with the trait lines 30% increased critical damage, and you can get another 20% critical damage from gear (maybe more havent tried to min/max it yet)

the power line gives 300 power, but imo the critical damage is more worth it for a damage build, that and executioner.

just with that setup you have lots of dodges, and can abuse stealth backstabs nicely.

Trikittenistos.3046:

-our skills to be instant., especially stealths and heals.

everyone has skills that have cast times, including ther heals, its intended and a part of the game.

removing it would just be dumbing down the game and taking away from the skill involved.

unless your talking about something other then cast times

its this games version of autoattack, you press the ability once and it cycles thru each attack.

backstab however is special, this can only be accessed once in stealth.

nobody having any input eh?

i know its impossible, for various reasons, i wont list them all. but im looking for whats “has it all” or rather has enough of whats needed.

firstly is weapon set, shortbow is pretty much mandatory offhand, but main set. Sword+pistol? D+P? D+D?

sword+pistol is lawded as possibly the best set for utilities. autoattack hits multiple targets, its burst hits multiple targets, iniflitrator strike, head shot for interrupts, black powder for blind/combos.

While D+P doesnt hit multiple targets, its attack is faster and its teleport roots you for a second.

D+D you have no interrupt, no base blind (ill explain that later), and your 3 skill is arguably requiring condition stats to do decent damage. but it has a ranged cripple that does good damage, and CnD is very useful once you get the hang of landing it.

now we cant look at just what the weapon set offers, we have to look at traits and how they can either offset weaknesses, boost strengths, etc.

S+P has a awesome toolset but its burst requires a lot of setup, to the point that many builds carry multiple ways to do this (devourer venom, basilisk venom, precast+teleports, etc), using so many skills to support one skill and make it reliable has me sketchy

D+P keeps the utility, the teleport is somewhat tho not perfectly useful, but it with the HS nerf and the only other real damage methods for it being autoattack and backstab…the last of which requires a lot of investment to enter stealth (black powder>HS=8 initiative untraited) means it relies on using your utility skills to also enter stealth.

D+D has no spell interrupt, which really sucks, it also has no teleport, tho HS can be used to close a gap, and dancing dagger cripples, but only for 2 seconds. Death blossom again, i feel its damage is downright weak unless specced to abuse it (leading me to only use it for evade). it does have the best way to re-enter stealth tho with CnD.

P+D problem is it has no real good damage, even tho its hard to catch.

These imo are the best weapon sets to look at, S+D and P+P have too many shortcomings that cant be outright worked out thru traiting imo.

now for traits…what does a thief need?
damage
damage avoidance (stealth, evasion)
condition removal
utility

damage is simple enough

damage avoidance each weapon set has something to answer for that. S+P probably taking a slight lead with the dual nature of infiltrator strike, the others imo being tied save maybe P+D

condition removal, shadow meld+pain suppression is needed for self reliance on removing poisons, bleeds and burning. for cripple/weakness we have withdraw and fleet of foot (or something). these imo are the most important conditions to need to be removed. and with the ease of re-application id say shadow meld+pain suppression is needed, if you then take fleet of foot, everytime you dodge you remove weakness and cripple. covering your condition removal nicely.

utility is a wide area to discuss. blinds, slows, combos, group stealths, so many and more have utility, whats the best tho?

in pvp, the most abusive thing a thief can do imo is blind with a trait that creates a blind everytime you stealth. venomshare is also certainly powerful, but i dont think you can get everything ive said thus far with venomshare. again this is about a “best” overall build for pvp, this means self reliance, if you want to rely on your teamates strictly, then there are more specificed builds and more to take into account.

This is as far as ive gotten in my thoughts, please feel free to add more! atm im leaning towards D+D as i can alleviate its shortcomings without straight up making my utilities revolve around it.