Guild Wars 2

2 days to patch and still no answer to this?

This is not a problem with the game. In fact, if they had it your way and made you ‘more powerful’ as you leveled up, people would leave the game in droves.

The game was sold upon there being level downscaling in zones so everything is still (at least somewhat) relevant as you progress through the game, everyone having equal gear in PvP so you can jump into PvP right away without being stomped by everyone else, and having cosmetics as end-game progression so we don’t get on the endless gear treadmill of other MMOs.

The problem is that its very hard to make content that’s difficult enough to justify granting a legendary without your legendary becoming like ‘legendaries’ in D3.

You’ll have to push your content to a very fine line to becoming impossible, whilst keeping it fun and not frustrating, all whilst making sure its not exploitable in some way and balanced between all playable classes. That’s pretty hard.

Having higher AP doesn’t mean a player is going to play better, just like having higher gear score doesn’t mean the run will be smoother.

But having higher AP generally means a player is likely to be better at the game because they’ve played for longer. Since there’s no better measurement to skill check a player, that’s the one people use.

^ because progression in the game is based around cosmetics, and the whole point of legendaries is their skin.

Change the skin of Sunrise to that of a normal exotic, but keep the BiS and star swap functions and see how much more the price tanks compared to if you did it the other way round.

Any sort of an answer from Anet would be nice.

Jure Simich.6154:

No, only one account has the Eternity skin and another one has Twilight and Sunrise skins. Only one can, for example, choose to have permanent Twilight and only one can have a changing skin.

Look, I know it hurts – but don’t you think it’s impossible to improve anything if we take the position that it’s unjust that some suffered from what is improved earlier?

Look toward a brighter future, instead

Except that there is a solution, and its actually a very simple solution which won’t hurt anyone.

And this isn’t a bit of ‘hurt’, this is actually a potential exploit.

^ I think you’re quoting the wrong post but :

They would be more common. Every time you are doing this, you’re either producing a set of Twilight and Sunrise from thin air without any work involved or making Teilight and Sunrise avaliable to 2 accounts instead of the normal 1. You could say its a duplication trick of sorts.

^ theist because the market is small doesn’t mean it’s not exploitable. I remember back on Runescape there was an exploit involving getting gp out of nowhere if you had max cash stacks. Something like less than <0.1% of people had that but it doesn’t mean Jagex didn’t hand out bans.

Why the heck would Eternity ever fall below Sunrise? Is a superior substitute and the market is mostly supported by people just buying a single legendary sword.

Shockwave.1230:

Spiderpig.9843:

Guys please just stop talking about markets and prices. It is irrelevent. The post was intended to show that people are able to unlock the Twilight and Sunrise skins in a way that is most likely not intended. I’m pretty sure Arenanet didn’t intend for more than one person to unlock Sunrise and Twilight skins for one Eternity made. That’s what this post is about.

The part about the market and stuff has been discussed to no end and in the end we can only speculate on prices. Arenanet once made a post about how they increased the drop rate of precursers from the forge as an attempt to decrease their prices only to find out their price doubled after the change. Markets behavior are indeed complex which is why I think we should drop that part of the discussion.

The only question at hand is whether Arenanet intended people to unlock Sunrise and Twilight in this manner and how they could adress this issue.

For the last time please STOP talking about economics because this is a subject you can keep speculating about to no end. I’m not saying any of you are wrong about the market changes, I just don’t think they are relevent in this discussion anymore.

Their intent and what they actually do are two different things. They may not have intended for people to be able to unlock Twilight and Sunrise then sell Eternity, they also may not have not intended it. It could be an oversight.

Regardless, until they actually roll out the feature patch and we know the actual behavior, it makes sense to try and influence ANet one way or the other. The feeling I have is that given the silence on the topic, the initial behavior in the feature build was that it was possible to sell an eternity made from from bound legendaries. That’s probably a majority of the forums feeling on the matter.

Because I don’t want them to deviate from what is believed to be the current behavior I am going to draw whatever comparison/facts I can, since it will be an overall benefit to skin accessibility for the playerbase as a whole that this be possible.

It doesn’t make Sunrise and Twilight more accessible than before. If you couldn’t afford them before, you still can’t afford them now. The only thing that’s changing is that if you can afford both (and thus can access both anyways), you get both more next to free, which is frankly for the lack of a better word, stupid.

Besides, skins aren’t supposed to be all accessible. The idea is that you work for the rarer skins. Giving everything to you on a silver platter isn’t exactly going to make everyone happier.

It doesn;t make any sense in any way you think about it.

From a pure numbers perspective, being able to do this means that every time someone does this, it makes Twilight and Sunrise available to 2 accounts despite only 1 set was made.

It becomes even more ridiculous once you start doing this in other ways. For example, you and a friend can both get 2 legendaries at the price of 1, with one of you getting Eternity as well by making Twilight and Sunrise between you two, trade it to one person, bind them, trade Eternity to the other person, bind Eternity.

It just breaks on so many levels that whichever way you look at it, its just a huge loophole.

^we’re all waiting an answer on that…. for weeks.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Xae Isareth.1364:

The core question is: is the wardrobe function supposed to allow you to get both Sunrise and Twilight’s skins at a small fraction of what buying one costs?

Well, since this is how the dev’s chose to implement it, yes.

If they opt to change it later. So be it. As it stands though, that’s how it appears to work.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exploit

Are all those what the devs chose to do as well?

Pip.2094:

Spiderpig.9843:

Shockwave.1230:

This will be good for all parties. People who do this will be able to get more legendary skins because they’ll have a lot of money, and the prices of legendary won’t inflate as quickly for a while

Yes but how ’’legendary’’ is a weapon as soon as everyone has it… I mean not only will Sunrise/Twilight skins become more common but also the skins of all the other legendaries, as people with sunrise and twilight can get 2-3 for those for nothing pretty much.

WAIT! When did legendaries actually become legendary? I must have lost this bit because as far as I know, more than the useless, tedious grind or throwing up your credit card, you just need a couple of hours of mindless WvW zerging to get it done.
Anyhow, the very fact these weapons can be sold and purchased make your whole thread rather useless really…
Plus, I believe those who actually get Eternity don’t do it just because they like both Sunrise and Twilight, but because they want to show up they got more than that. Otherwise they’d get just Sunrise really.

Can you please read the whole opening post before commenting.

Can you also add to the debate instead of pitching in completely irrelevant comments.

Shockwave.1230:

There’s a lack of understanding in this thread. This isn’t a big issue. If supply goes up prices come down. The supply of eternity, which is already insanely low, will go up, the price will come down and reach an equilibrium with twilight and dawn.

The 3 won’t be the same price, eternity will always be more than both, because eternity unlocks 5 skins, Dawn, Dusk, Sunrise, Twilight, and Eternity. Twilight only unlocks itself and Dusk. Sunrise only unlocks itself and Dusk.

Since Eternity is THE high roller status item in GW2 due to it being the only item that requires 2 legendaries, there will always be a consistent demand for it, as the number of players that want to show it off aren’t changing. The supply is changing.

The demand is also going to go up, because Eternity unlocks 3 legendary skins instead of 1 as previously mentioned.

What this means is that supply and demand are increasing. The reason demand is increasing, again, is the additional unlocks eternity provides. The reason supply would increase is because a portion of the player base understands that by unlocking twilight and sunrise then selling eternity you can get about 3.5 legendary skins with the current rates.

Eternity will reign as the most valuable legendary due to it being a status symbol of the game and the fact that it’s a Greatsword, one of the most popular and most demanded weapons, I feel like I have to repeat this. It won’t fall below other legendaries ever unless someone has an insane amount of gold deliberately manipulate the market to do otherwise (John Smith might be the most feasible person to make this happen and it wouldn’t necessarily be due to him actually having enough gold).

Tl;dr
This “issue” has extremely little, if anything to do with market impact. Because the only market impact will be a decreased rate of inflation on legendaries. What this ultimately comes down to is some people think it’s unfair that for the effort of 2 legendaries people can get 2 skins + eternity ‘s market value ( a bit more than 1.5 legendary skins, ala 3.5 skins total) for the effort of getting 3 skins (eternity, twilight, and Sunrise). That’s ultimately what it is, jealousy of some people having the option to say “I don’t want eternity, because I’m less concerned about it as a status item. I’d rather have another legendary skin and progress towards a 4 instead”

The problem isn’t a market issue, nor a problem with jealousy. It a loophole with the system doing something which the wardrobe clearly wasn’t intended to do.

This isn’t even anything to do with Eternity itself.

Lambent.6375:

pswendel.8179:

This may serve to lower the prices and stabilize itself if, as you say, everybody will be doing it.

^ I agree with this.

It reminds me of when Dark Matter was first introduced, and people were buying exotic gear with pricey runes/sigils, salvaging them for Dark Matter, and then selling the rune or sigil back and making most of their money back, or even profiting sometimes.

Eventually the gear became a lot more expensive than the sigil or rune it contained.

Except in this case the market cannot correct itself.

What can it do?

Even if Eternity went down to the same price as Sunrise, you’re still basically making Twilight and Sunrise at half-cost. And that won’t happen because Eternity also unlocks both swords in your wardrobe.

The example you gave is a problem caused by the market itself, with the value of items not equating, thus creating an arbitrage situation. This is a problem caused by the system, thus the market cannot correct it.

@Lanfear

Your arguments does not make any sense. Salvaging and selling is nothing like this. You’re basically arguing technical points which in no way actually relates to the core question at hand.

A rare chest piece is nothing like a legendary. Just because the returns work on a similar scale to the original item does not mean its the same thing. just like you get a slap on the wrist for being caught stealing from the local church donation pot but get put in jail for a bank robbery, the items in question completely changes the nature of the problem.

No one really cares about reaping back the costs on a rare chestpiece, because its nowhere near as expensive or desirable.

As for how do you buy Eternity even if its account bound, just buy Sunrise and Twilight separately. They’re still tradable. Thus I don’t see the problem from any angle here.

Having the gold in the first place is unrelated to this argument. If I buy a house with my hard-earned cash, do I get the right to sell the house but keep the house and the money after I sell it?

The core question is: is the wardrobe function supposed to allow you to get both Sunrise and Twilight’s skins at a small fraction of what buying one costs?

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Xae Isareth.1364:

I provided a solution to where they can pinpoint it straight down to only Eternities created after the patch. I don’t think changing the recipe to a ‘new’ item is a very complicated code to implement, because as far as I can remember, we didn’t have any problems with items put into the LS, including the back pieces from the MF in the LA patch.

But this isn’t a solution though. Now you’re saying that Eternity after the patch vs the pre-existing ones are not worth the same. That they aren’t the ‘same’ item, when they are.

Why are they not worth the same? They’re exactly the same items, except one is not tradable whilst the other is. Once you wield it it’s exactly the same.

So you’re saying that the wardrobe should allow you to effectively resell an item and still keep its skin?

No, and I have no idea where you are even getting this. Because you can transform Twilight and Sunrise into Eternity? Eternity is not the same item as either of those. You are not ‘reselling’ twilight or sunrise technically speaking. You may sell eternity, but that is not the same item, nor do you get it’s skin if you choose to.

Note the word ‘effectively’

It is not in your skin collection simply by creating it. I cannot simply create another Eternity by using 2 skins from the wardrobe, because they are just skins.

When did I even mention anything about recreating Eternity?

Creating Eternity, which is its own item, by the consumption of Twlight and Sunrise and then retaining the skins from Twilight and Sunrise is no different than retaining the skins from them after accidentally destroying Twilight and Sunrise.

Except you get most of your costs back once you sell Eternity.

Your big kitten is that (with the upcoming patch) you can retain the skins for Twilight and Sunrise and still make 5k gold because they can be combined into something else that by its nature is not bound on acquire and gives the option to choose if you want to keep it or sell it. It doesn’t matter that it basically works that way currently (can make and wield Twilight and Sunrise to your heart’s content until you get tired of them, then merge them and make a profit) because there is no wardrobe at the present time and therefore can’t ‘show off’ your shinies if you sell them.

‘It doesn’t matter that it basically works that way _currently_’

So currently I can make Sunrise and Twilight, reap most of the costs back and still keep the skins?

How would that be detrimental? You could still ‘buy’ Eternity through buying Sunrise and Twilight and then forging them even if they make Eternity account-bound. I don’t think anyone makes Eternity from Sunrise and Twilight and sells for a profit. Those who wish to whip out a credit card for Eternity can still do so.

You can’t see how it might cause issues if one, and only one, legendary was forced into account bound on acquire? Really?

I can’t see any issues. I really can’t. If you bought/made Sunrise and Twilight to get Eternity, you clearly aren’t doing this to make a profit. If you wanted to buy Eternity outright with money, you still can. So where’s the problem?

Can we just stop arguing in circles and get back to the core question I posed at you?

Farming Flats.5370:

What amaze me , it’s every time there is a slight change or something that affect Legendaries a tons topics are created and loaded with critics and negativity from players who don’t have a legendary yet.. they see it as an injustice and just another brick on their head making harder to obtain one. It’s completely the opposite . It’s way more easier today … I crafted Sunrise and Rodgort at a time when the badges of Honors was called ‘’ badges of jumping ’’ and when Obsidian sanctum was part on EB Map … EB map full .. you can’t do the JP .. not now anymore .. Today you almost get a free gift of battle at each 500 AP you earn.

Craft one legendary and all your account can use the weapon or duplicate the skin , this is amazing and you are not happy? credit cards kids buy eternity and get sunrise and twilight for free .. so what ? You must equip it on your account to unlock the skin anyway and you can’t sell eternity anymore , so what’s the problem here ? by the way if you have Eternity skin unlocked on your account why using sunrise/twilight skin on a toon … Eternity skin is way more cooler , so whats the point ?

My main toon and my army of 13 Alts will gain access to Sunrise, Rodgort , Flameseeker , Bolt and the Minstrel , it’s wonderful ! is not it?

Ummm, this isn’t about getting Sunrise and Twlight with Eternity for free. This is about literally getting Sunrise and Twilight for next to free through a loophole with the system.

Next page

/15 charrr

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Xae Isareth.1364:

I didn’t quite comprehend your logic but I think you didn’t quite comprehend the whole purpose of that entire paragraph. You’re reading into the tiniest details but did not look at the overall picture as a whole.

Actually no, I was looking at the bigger picture. Not specifically how it only applies to the current legendary issue. How, if the various suggestions were to be applied, it should affect the overall wardrobe, unless they coded a very specific concession for just the legendaries, which really isn’t necessary. Not to mention the more complex the code, the more likely there will be issues (exploits, bugs, etc). I did however take very specific phrases from your exact post to try to make you understand my points, but you still, by your own admission, didn’t understand.

I provided a solution to where they can pinpoint it straight down to only Eternities created after the patch. I don’t think changing the recipe to a ‘new’ item is a very complicated code to implement, because as far as I can remember, we didn’t have any problems with items put into the LS, including the back pieces from the MF in the LA patch.

The reason why you still have the skin even if you sell/salvage it is because otherwise we’ll need entire alt-fulls of inventory slots to just hold all our skins, not to allow you reap back the costs of making the item.

I never said the intent of it was to “reap back the costs of making the item.” And yes, you would need sets of alts to hold all those skins. However an exotic ‘skin’ isn’t any different than a ‘legendary’ skin in regards to how you can unlock (record) it for later use.

I never said it was any different.

Call me stupid but form what I understand, you seem to be trying to argue that the wardrobe system is supposed to record skins for every item you ever laid your eyes on. Which I certainly don’t think is the case.

Laid my eyes on, no? Anything I’ve ever equipped, bound, or salvaged (after the patch), yes. Including legendaries.

So you’re saying that the wardrobe should allow you to effectively resell an item and still keep its skin?

The inherent flaw in legendaries is that they are sellable, when they never should have been. Specially considering Ascended is fricking account bound on acquire. However, to change that now, especially if they only did it to Eternity, would be detrimental for them. They may as well just shoot themselves in the foot.

How would that be detrimental? You could still ‘buy’ Eternity through buying Sunrise and Twilight and then forging them even if they make Eternity account-bound. I don’t think anyone makes Eternity from Sunrise and Twilight and sells for a profit. Those who wish to whip out a credit card for Eternity can still do so.

Whether its a flaw is a another argument altogether. It was a design choice. That design choice is not the cause of this issue in itself. It’s because of how Eternity works that’s causing a loophole in the system that’s very likely not intended by the developers, and thus should be closed

You basically strayed so far from what the point of the argument actually is that its becoming very hard to follow the logic of your arguments in this context.

So let me put the argument back on track: is the wardrobe supposed to allow you to get both Sunrise and Twilight at a fraction of their costs? That’s the core question the debate was about.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Xae Isareth.1364:

I’m going to ignore that it’s not real life counter-argument, because just because it’s not real life doesn’t mean you don’t draw real life comparisons. It’s why it’s called virtual reality.

I don’t think you understand the intentions of the wardrobe.

-Salvage: Do you forsee anyone salvaging stuff like Infinite Light? Why does salvaging even come into this? Its basically arguing for the the argument’s sake.
-Selling: you can’t resell any other item once you bind it to get its skin.

The whole point of the wardrobe is to let you reuse skins you already own on alts, because the current system is very alt-unfriendly, and to remove the destructive nature of the current system, so we can try out new looks without putting past efforts to waste.

The skin progression doesn’t have anything to do with this. That was thought out under the idea that you still own the resulting item, and thus should have access to its Orr-requisite skins. Selling Eternity means you don’t own Eternity any more, putting that reasoning out of the window.

You are completely missing the broader scope of the picture and my points entirely. You can’t comprehend when I use your own basic logic against you, while other’s seem to understand just fine.

“The whole point of the wardrobe is to let you reuse skins you already own on alts” – your words, keyword in your words is OWN.

From the article on the wardrobe – “Skins can be unlocked by using consumables, equipping items, salvaging equipment, or right-clicking on equipment and account-binding it.” Unlocked skins remain available even if you salvage them, or sell them (like to a merchant). Therefore in these two instances, you no longer OWN those items. However, you still have access to the skins.

This is no different than if you were to equip Twilight then accidentally merch, salavage, or destroy it for whatever reason. You. Would. Still. Retain. The. Skin.

By your logic, if you for any reason no longer OWN the item which gives you that skin (which includes upgrading it to something else), you should not have that skin available. In order to code this, it would need to apply to everything, which would negate the wardrobe entirely. Unless, they coded a concession for legendaries, which leads to a whole different set if issues.

" you bind it to get its skin." again, your words. You bind Twilight, you get it’s skin. You bind Sunrise, you get its skin. You don’t bind eternity, you don’t get its skin. Instead you sell it for 4k or whatever. Its a trade off.

I didn’t quite comprehend your logic but I think you didn’t quite comprehend the whole purpose of that entire paragraph. You’re reading into the tiniest details but did not look at the overall picture as a whole.

The reason why you still have the skin even if you sell/salvage it is because otherwise we’ll need entire alt-fulls of inventory slots to just hold all our skins, not to allow you reap back the costs of making the item.

Call me stupid but form what I understand, you seem to be trying to argue that the wardrobe system is supposed to record skins for every item you ever laid your eyes on. Which I certainly don’t think is the case.

If that’s not the case, then you are arguing a technical detail of the system which hardly is actually relevant to this debate.

You mentioned a tradeoff. I bind Sunrise, I get the skin. I bind Twilight, I get the skin. I sell Eternity, I get most of the money back. Where’s the trade-off? The fraction of the cost of actually buying/crafting Sunrise/Twilight?

Silvercyclone.1462:

What most players havent realized yet is u can put 4 different colored bags in the mystic forge and a 25 slot rainbow bag will pop out. Only works for players who have transfered to JQ server.

Transfer to Underworld and you get the Ultimate Rainbow Bag. It has an Asuran time-space synergiser in-built to distort the very fabric of space-time to give you a bag with infinite slots.

Spiderpig.9843:

lesliejb.3615:

Wasn’t this topic already discussed at length in a wardrobe feedback thread?

If it was, please include the link to that thread. As mentioned in the original post, I’m unaware of any other section of the forum where this is being discussed.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Feedback-Questions-The-Wardrobe-System/page/23#post3873645

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Feedback-Questions-Legendaries-in-Wardrobe/page/13#post3850979

Two biggest threads on this. Quite a few smaller threads. No answer from Anet so far.

pswendel.8179:

This is the most petty of complaints in a long list of complaints.

Don’t like the fact that you already created an eternity to sell it? Well you made more gold than those who will do so after the patch. The complaints will be reversed in 30 days. Just watch.

Don’t like that your skins are all over the place now? From my point of view they already are, and in a game with no other goal – guess what? That’s the goal.

So therefore if if a complaint is small but has a very fair and relatively simple solution, we just ignore it?

It’s called a quick-win, and usually those gets attended to first in any project at the problem solving stage, because they net you the best benefits for effort ratio.

^ you really missed a point. Eternity isn’t discountinued. It’s just a method to get around making every Eternity account bound, new or not, which would be a slap to the faces of those who wanted to sell their’s before the patch.

Also, can we just get a Anet dev to just settle this? It’s not the first time this popped up.

Flissy.4093:

I thought about using and abusing this for myself. For days, I’ve rattled over in my brain “how can ArenaNet stop this?”. Account bound Eternity? No, some are on the TP and that would be unfair. Ripping Sunrise/Twilight when they are forged to Eternity until Eternity is equipped? Likely not possible to code.

I can’t think of how ANet can prevent this. So I don’t think they will.

I believe what will happen is:
1) Sunrise and Twilight both drop in cost drastically. Eternity drops with them but is far cheaper than buying both Sunrise & Twilight combined, and is under “150%” cost.
2) There will be no demand for Eternity to make this possible after the first few people abuse this because of a constant supply of Eternity, much greater than what it is now.

1 is likely if people actually want Eternity (I personally don’t, and never have done. I have always intended on just keeping Sunrise & Twilight). 2 in my eyes is the more likely scenario, because I believe that a much greater sum of people would rather pay “1000g” (my estimate for the difference in price between Eternity and Sunrise+Twilight) for both Sunrise & Twilight skins than pay 3500g for all 3. I don’t know many people who would value the Eternity skin so greatly.

As much as I’d like to abuse this – which would likely allow me to complete my Legendary set – it needs to be looked at and fixed before the 15th. But what is more likely happen is ANet go “oops” and the first people on board profit greatly, and it’s fixed on the 16th.

Make the current Eternities a discountinued item. Take away it’s MF recipe.

Change the result of the recipe to a new item (it still can keep the same name, like how Acolyte Cowl lvl 1 and lvl 5 has the same name), which is exactly the same as Eternity except that it’s account bound always.

Problem solved.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Xae Isareth.1364:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Spiderpig.9843:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Spiderpig.9843:

Shockwave.1230:

This will be good for all parties. People who do this will be able to get more legendary skins because they’ll have a lot of money, and the prices of legendary won’t inflate as quickly for a while

Yes but how ’’legendary’’ is a weapon as soon as everyone has it… I mean not only will Sunrise/Twilight skins become more common but also the skins of all the other legendaries, as people with sunrise and twilight can get 2-3 for those for nothing pretty much.

How ‘legendary’ is a weapon that you can buy with your credit card rather than actually having to play the game for it?

Not very imo, but I guess everyone is different.

I agree with you on that. But you can also agree with me that this would only make it worse instead of better.

I don’t see any issue with it actually. People that don’t have legendaries still don’t have them. People that do have them aren’t losing anything, in fact they are gaining from this.

If anything, these changes will encourage more players to obtain legendary items. Either through crafting them or obtaining the gold to buy them outright. So what if someone makes/buys twilight and sunrise, gets their skins, then sells the unbound eternity. If legendaries were actually ‘legendary’ then I could see the issue; however, they are not simply due to the purchase-ability factor. Of course, if they weren’t purchasable to begin with, we wouldn’t be having this conversation at all.

Let me put this into a real life example.

You buy/build two houses. You sell said house. And after paying legal fees and stamp duty, you get to keep the houses and also the money you sold the houses for.

Does that sound sensible?

Selling something means fully transferring the ownership of an item. In this case you transferred the ownership of your sword to another and thus should not be able to own the sub-components associated with it.

To put it as an in game problem, you’re basically crafting 2 sets of Sunrise and Twilight using 1 set of materials every time you do this.

Or if you got enough money, you get 2 Legendaries next to free.

Also, to a lot of people who owns Sunrise and Twilight and do not plan to do this, it devalues their items.

There, 3 problems.

First, as people have told me hundreds of times when I try to use real life examples…. “this isn’t real life.”

Second, by your logic, the wardrobe does not work period and should not exist. You salvage an item, it’s gone. You sell an item, it’s gone. Yet their skins remain with the current implementation of the wardrobe, which has been my entire point all along. By your logic, they should not work this way. When you salvage or sell, then the skin should be removed from the wardrobe. (The pvp locker kind of works this way, but can only hold a single instance of the item.) Anet obviously decided that’t not how they want it to work. Considering they took the time to think through how ‘skin progression’ for things like Eternity or the Spinal Back piece work and how they would be implemented in the wardrobe, the developers obviously didn’t agree with your views.

I’m going to ignore that it’s not real life counter-argument, because just because it’s not real life doesn’t mean you don’t draw real life comparisons. It’s why it’s called virtual reality.

I don’t think you understand the intentions of the wardrobe.

-Salvage: Do you forsee anyone salvaging stuff like Infinite Light? Why does salvaging even come into this? Its basically arguing for the the argument’s sake.
-Selling: you can’t resell any other item once you bind it to get its skin.

The whole point of the wardrobe is to let you reuse skins you already own on alts, because the current system is very alt-unfriendly, and to remove the destructive nature of the current system, so we can try out new looks without putting past efforts to waste.

The skin progression doesn’t have anything to do with this. That was thought out under the idea that you still own the resulting item, and thus should have access to its Orr-requisite skins. Selling Eternity means you don’t own Eternity any more, putting that reasoning out of the window.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Spiderpig.9843:

Maybe the gold you get from selling Eternity will not fully compensate for the amount of gold spent. But say its a 500g difference. It would mean I’d be able to unlock say the Twilight skin for 500g instead of the ~1800g and get the Sunrise skin for free with it. Ifcourse I would need like 3500-4000g to do this, but being able to pay 500g and unlock Sunrise and Twilight skins to me sounds like a cheat..

Difference of opinion I suppose. I don’t see this as any different than playing the TP as it presently stands.

Ignoring taxes, playing the TP is a zero-sum game. You aren’t generating any currency or items from flipping/arbitrage trading/investing. You are merely creating a transfer of wealth.

This generates a set of Twilight and Sunrise out of nowhere.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Spiderpig.9843:

I just think it’s unfair for Sunrise and Twilight to become freebies while all the other legendaries will not.

I hardly see them as ‘free’ by any standard.

You either need to make them and equip them. True, you can sell eternity after the fact, but that still doesn’t make them ‘free’.

Or, you have to scrounge up the gold to buy them. Yes, you can still sell eternity after the fact, but at a loss. Hardly ‘free’ through that route either.

Either option takes time, and effort. Neither of which you will get back. Everything has a ‘cost’ to it.

Of course, we also have no idea how the market is going to be after the update. If we see an influx of eternities kitten many seem to believe, it’ll simply drive the cost down that much more, resulting in a larger loss if you purchased the other 2 greatswords directly. Again, hardly ‘free.’

By that logic, should we be able to just do the same for every other item in the game?

So I should be able to buy and resell Infinite Light? I made the money to ‘buy’ it in the first place. And I’m making a loss on resell.

If the price of Eternity falls, the prices of the other GSs falls as well, because they are inferior substitutes.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Spiderpig.9843:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Spiderpig.9843:

Shockwave.1230:

This will be good for all parties. People who do this will be able to get more legendary skins because they’ll have a lot of money, and the prices of legendary won’t inflate as quickly for a while

Yes but how ’’legendary’’ is a weapon as soon as everyone has it… I mean not only will Sunrise/Twilight skins become more common but also the skins of all the other legendaries, as people with sunrise and twilight can get 2-3 for those for nothing pretty much.

How ‘legendary’ is a weapon that you can buy with your credit card rather than actually having to play the game for it?

Not very imo, but I guess everyone is different.

I agree with you on that. But you can also agree with me that this would only make it worse instead of better.

I don’t see any issue with it actually. People that don’t have legendaries still don’t have them. People that do have them aren’t losing anything, in fact they are gaining from this.

If anything, these changes will encourage more players to obtain legendary items. Either through crafting them or obtaining the gold to buy them outright. So what if someone makes/buys twilight and sunrise, gets their skins, then sells the unbound eternity. If legendaries were actually ‘legendary’ then I could see the issue; however, they are not simply due to the purchase-ability factor. Of course, if they weren’t purchasable to begin with, we wouldn’t be having this conversation at all.

Let me put this into a real life example.

You buy/build two houses. You sell said house. And after paying legal fees and stamp duty, you get to keep the houses and also the money you sold the houses for.

Does that sound sensible?

Selling something means fully transferring the ownership of an item. In this case you transferred the ownership of your sword to another and thus should not be able to own the sub-components associated with it.

To put it as an in game problem, you’re basically crafting 2 sets of Sunrise and Twilight using 1 set of materials every time you do this.

Or if you got enough money, you get 2 Legendaries next to free.

Also, to a lot of people who owns Sunrise and Twilight and do not plan to do this, it devalues their items.

There, 3 problems.

I think the best solution is to just make Eternity account bound on creation.

No harm done to anyone, and it’s probably a lot simpler to code in than ripping skins.

It would ‘harm’ those people trying to use Eternity as tool to liquidate Sunrise/Twilight but the whole point if a soul-bind system was to stop people from reselling items anyways.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Xae Isareth.1364:

I don;t really understand your argument. Firstly, salvaging gear doesn’t give you money back, selling the gear does. Its not comparable.

You state “its supposed to allow you access skins you own.” The keyword there is own. Therefore, by this logic, unlocking and being able to use skins through salvage should not work. You do not own it any longer. It is now materials, which you can sell and in turn can get ‘money back.’ Potentially more than the skin is worth. Not often, but the potential still exists.

Xae Isareth.1364:

As for your second argument, again, its not really in context. The argument is for people who just want Sunrise and Twilight at minimal cost, not Eternity.

So, if people shell out 5k (or whatever) for eternity, you have an issue that it also unlocks the other 2 skins (4 technically, since it does the precursor as well if I recall correctly)? And to get those skins they have to bind eternity, so they aren’t getting that 5k back.

There’s no reason why it shouldn’t unlock those skins though. 5k is a lot of gold, no matter which way you look at how it was obtained. Would you be less miffed if it where closer to the cost of the two sub components combined? Keep in mind that that 5k spent could have amounted to the same (or even more) work than it took to make the eternity being purchased.

For your third point, those people who merge Eternity and sell it currently rightfully won’t have access to Sunrise and Twlight skins. That;s not the case for after the patch if things are unchanged.

Except that they have nothing to show for the effort they put forth. Well, gold, but big whoop. Lots of people have gold (coming out their ears it seems). There isn’t any valid reason that they shouldn’t have access to the skins they unlocked through hard work.

And following your logic, going back to my example with Infinite Light and other rare skins, should they be made tradable so that I can make Infinite Light, get the skin, sell it, use the money to make another rare skin, do the same, and get every rare skin at very minimal cost? No, because that would be just silly.

Considering you have to bind or destroy the item to obtain the skin, this obviously wouldn’t work. You wouldn’t be able to sell it after you got the skin. I think we have a minor disconnect on what you seem to think I’m saying.

1. You lost me here. I really don’t know what you’re talking about. I don’t see anyone salvaging Immobulus or anything that’s above junk value unless its an accident. If you;re talking about ‘getting money’ back in terms of 2g through sigils and the such, that’s completely unrelated to the argument.

2. Its about the person who made Sunrise and Twilight, and then Eternity, not the person who bought Eternity. I think you might have misunderstood what this is about.

3. So, if I just bought Sunrise and Twlight off the TP and then did this to basically get the skins next to free, that’s hard work?

Besides, I don;t really get this hard work argument. If you made a choice to sell your legendary, then shouldn’t it be logical that your ‘hard work’ should become gold instead of a legendary? I mean, if I worked by butt off to buy a Porsche, then decided to sell it, should I get to have the Porsche and the money I ‘sold’ it for as well?

Before you counter with that skins aren’t real legendaries, skins are the main reason most people go for legendaries. The stat-switching is a very minor icing on the cake. If you made legendaries look like plain exotics and kept the stat-switching, I can guarantee you that legendaries will be worth a whole lot less almost immediately.

4. I don’t really follow your arguments. The argument I provided on Infinite Light is what ‘should’ happen if your logic was to hold, not what can actually happen.

phys.7689:

Xae Isareth.1364:

phys.7689:

lordkrall.7241:

Xae Isareth.1364:

It’s an exploit because then you sell Eternity to get most of your money back, whilst keeping both the skins.

Since people get legendaries mainly for the skin, you basically just got 2 legendaries next to free.

Not supposed to happen.

But you have made those two weapons with those two skins and thus you should have them unlocked.

Just because you can get your money back for something doesn’t mean you haven’t made it.

What if I make something tomorrow, get the skin for it, and then in 1 year that item itself is worth way more than it costed me to make it? Should I lose that skin then if I decided to sell it?
Wouldn’t that invalidate the whole purpose of the Wardrobe?

You might not like it, but calling it an exploit is quite silly.

unlocking a skin generally account binds it from what i gathered, so you can never sell anything you unlocked.
This is different for eternity

HOWEVER, you are not getting a sword skin that actually changes its blade based on night and day like eternity. If you wanted to get the equivalent functionality you would have to either make two ascended weapons, or you would have to transmute it all the time.

Also people are forgetting every time you make a legendary you use massive karma and map completion, and wvw, they are also forgetting that eternity costs will not be recouped, because eternity doesnt for as much as twilight and sunrise combined anyhow.
sunrise cost 3k
twilight cost 3k
eternity costs 5k

so it really aint that bad.
Just to make it even more different, they should recolor the hilt of eternity or add some small eternity only effect.

You’re not getting Eternity, but I don’t really see how that fits into the argument, since its about getting Sunrise and Twilight in a way its not supposed to be obtained.

5k-500g-3k-3k=1.5k. That’s getting both Sunrise and Twlight at half the cost of 1. There’s a market correction argument but its hard to predict which way the correction will go because of how this is set up.

like you said, you are only considering market value here, which is going to change regardless. What you are then talking about is an economic issue, not really a game balance issue.
Fact is, you cant get eternity skin properties without making an eternity.
fact is you spent 1.3 million karma 500 skill points, 500 badges of honor and 1000 dungeon tokens getting sunrise and twilight, AND need to give up at LEAST one charachters maximum legendary allotment to make it these two items, to somehow limit its unlock would be a really bad idea.

The costs of materials we cant really figure in here too much, for some people the costs are a lot, for others its one day TP trading, in which case all that non buyable stuff that straight up requires time and effort is a lot more of a loss.

I’m sorry if I’m going to sound a bit blunt here but, the argument made was based on buying Sunrise and Twilight outright and selling Eternity, so you can’t really then retort it with karma/WvW costs etc.

We’re not limiting their unlocks either. If you made Sunrise+Twlight, you’ll get the skins. What you shouldn’t then be able to do is just basically resell them and get most of your costs back, because as stated and explained before, that’s not how its supposed to work.

Also, the problem was never about Eternity itself, it was about Sunrise and Twilight. You don’t want Eternity if you’re going to do this, because you’re going to then sell it straight after.

phys.7689:

lordkrall.7241:

Xae Isareth.1364:

It’s an exploit because then you sell Eternity to get most of your money back, whilst keeping both the skins.

Since people get legendaries mainly for the skin, you basically just got 2 legendaries next to free.

Not supposed to happen.

But you have made those two weapons with those two skins and thus you should have them unlocked.

Just because you can get your money back for something doesn’t mean you haven’t made it.

What if I make something tomorrow, get the skin for it, and then in 1 year that item itself is worth way more than it costed me to make it? Should I lose that skin then if I decided to sell it?
Wouldn’t that invalidate the whole purpose of the Wardrobe?

You might not like it, but calling it an exploit is quite silly.

unlocking a skin generally account binds it from what i gathered, so you can never sell anything you unlocked.
This is different for eternity

HOWEVER, you are not getting a sword skin that actually changes its blade based on night and day like eternity. If you wanted to get the equivalent functionality you would have to either make two ascended weapons, or you would have to transmute it all the time.

Also people are forgetting every time you make a legendary you use massive karma and map completion, and wvw, they are also forgetting that eternity costs will not be recouped, because eternity doesnt for as much as twilight and sunrise combined anyhow.
sunrise cost 3k
twilight cost 3k
eternity costs 5k

so it really aint that bad.
Just to make it even more different, they should recolor the hilt of eternity or add some small eternity only effect.

You’re not getting Eternity, but I don’t really see how that fits into the argument, since its about getting Sunrise and Twilight in a way its not supposed to be obtained.

5k-500g-3k-3k=1.5k. That’s getting both Sunrise and Twlight at half the cost of 1. There’s a market correction argument but its hard to predict which way the correction will go because of how this is set up.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Xae Isareth.1364:

The wardrobe isn’t supposed to give you free skins for everything you ever laid your eyes on, its supposed to allow you access skins you own on every alt you have, so your skins aren’t just restricted to your main, and removed the problem of destruction from the current transmutation process.

If not, why can’t I do that to any other item in the game? Can I just make an Infinite Light, get the skin, and resell it and use the money for Moljnor, and repeat for every other rare skin?

The whole point of the soul-bind/account-bind system was to stop you from reselling your items, so no, you can’t sell an item after a year you’ve made it no matter what happens.

In summary, what I described is not what the wardrobe system was designed to do, and not what the devs wanted to happen. Thus by definition, its an exploit.

So, by unlocking a skin via salvaging it should be removed? I no longer have that item, but I still have it’s skin. Its no different than what you’re talking about here – having the twilight and dawn skins but not the actual weapons/armor.

Sure, they have the two skins, but unless they bind eternity, they will not get it’s skin. If they choose to sell it at that time, and then decide they want that skin later, they will have to go through the process all over again. It’s a trade off.

I don’t have any issue with the way this works. There are people now that create the two greatswords, use them for a bit, then merge and sell eternity. The locked simply gives them access to skins they worked hard to obtain, in one form or another. I’m not going to begrudge them that effort.

I don;t really understand your argument. Firstly, salvaging gear doesn’t give you money back, selling the gear does. Its not comparable.

As for your second argument, again, its not really in context. The argument is for people who just want Sunrise and Twilight at minimal cost, not Eternity.

For your third point, those people who merge Eternity and sell it currently rightfully won’t have access to Sunrise and Twlight skins. That;s not the case for after the patch if things are unchanged.

And following your logic, going back to my example with Infinite Light and other rare skins, should they be made tradable so that I can make Infinite Light, get the skin, sell it, use the money to make another rare skin, do the same, and get every rare skin at very minimal cost? No, because that would be just silly.

lordkrall.7241:

Xae Isareth.1364:

It’s an exploit because then you sell Eternity to get most of your money back, whilst keeping both the skins.

Since people get legendaries mainly for the skin, you basically just got 2 legendaries next to free.

Not supposed to happen.

But you have made those two weapons with those two skins and thus you should have them unlocked.

Just because you can get your money back for something doesn’t mean you haven’t made it.

What if I make something tomorrow, get the skin for it, and then in 1 year that item itself is worth way more than it costed me to make it? Should I lose that skin then if I decided to sell it?
Wouldn’t that invalidate the whole purpose of the Wardrobe?

You might not like it, but calling it an exploit is quite silly.

The wardrobe isn’t supposed to give you free skins for everything you ever laid your eyes on, its supposed to allow you access skins you own on every alt you have, so your skins aren’t just restricted to your main, and removed the problem of destruction from the current transmutation process.

If not, why can’t I do that to any other item in the game? Can I just make an Infinite Light, get the skin, and resell it and use the money for Moljnor, and repeat for every other rare skin?

The whole point of the soul-bind/account-bind system was to stop you from reselling your items, so no, you can’t sell an item after a year you’ve made it no matter what happens.

In summary, what I described is not what the wardrobe system was designed to do, and not what the devs wanted to happen. Thus by definition, its an exploit.

lordkrall.7241:

How is it an exploit though?
You need to build them both in order to get Eternity (unless you buy it outright from the TP, and to be fair, how many does that?)

It’s an exploit because then you sell Eternity to get most of your money back, whilst keeping both the skins.

Since people get legendaries mainly for the skin, you basically just got 2 legendaries next to free.

Not supposed to happen.

It would depend on what server you’re on. People have basically abandoned the weaker servers in droves due to free transfers and the WvW tourney.

Im not too sure about ESO. Personally I’m enjoying the game, but I don’t think it compares to GW2. And the metacrit score for it seems to agree with that.

Stooperdale.3560:

OK, here goes for why melee is better in GW2 than ranged as demonstrated by comparing thief pistol/pistol with dagger/pistol. The point of the ranged weapon is presumably to not get hit, but a smoke field from an off hand melee pistol can blind nearby opponents and prevent damage. Overall, a well used smoke field is safer than running about like a chicken. On top of that a dagger can use a leap finisher in the smoke field for stealth, has more utility, more damage, more mobility, and is a better fit for most traits, utilities, and stealing.

Except that there’s Defiance… which makes your blinds rather useless.

Also, most notably in WvW, sometimes you just can’t melee. Like when a zerg vs zerg fight sometimes, where there’s just too many AoEs around to actually approach anything safely with a melee weapon.

I’d imagine that over time Anet will also add certain mechanics which enforces the use of ranged weapons.

Hate to bring this back up, but, have we got an answer to what happens to Eternity yet? Over the potential exploit that people can do to get skins for Sunrise and Twlight at next to nothing.

It took me about 6-7months to make Sunrise.

It ain’t supposed to be easy. Although I still think legendary weapons aren’t that legendary anymore.

They should have never been tradable to start with.

nekretaal.6485:

The coin from champ bags is a big reason why ecto costs 38 silver today instead of 20 silver.

Anet has a good idea of how much gold they are taking out of the economy with the changes. I’m inclined to support them here.

Plus the waypoint changes essentially double your expenses on a death.

Not charging for armor repairs in WvW is a good change.

Ummm. Champ farming really doesnt actually make much pure money. You get about 40 bags at most a hour in any champ farm (much, much harder now since the invasions got nerfed). Thats 40×6s = 2.4g.

ACP1+3 is 30mins and 3.5g. CoE full run is 3.75g, takes 45mins. Anyone who’s not on heavy doses of drugs can do those easily.

MrRuin.9740:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Hmmm, I don’t really see why people are getting so angry. If they really did ‘compensate’ people with 2 legendaries by making one tradable, how would it affect you anyways? Reversing the argument around, if the compensation does occur, you aren’t losing anything as a person who isn’t affected.

What I wanna know more about however, is what are they going to do about the Eternity exploit.

Which exploit is that? Unlocking the previous skins? Its not an exploit. Those people unlocked the 2 previous skins and therefore will have them unlocked in their wardrobe, exactly the same as it will be post-patch as well. They are not gaining additional Legendaries. They are simply having previous skins that they had unlocked.
How does it affect me if Legendary people get compensated? It doesn’t. However, the precedent is set. If they get “compensated” for not losing anything at all, then all should be compensated for every dual-wield and duplicate skin for alts thats been farmed or bought as well. If Legendary users can get compensated for no reason, then everyone else should too.
We are really stretching the use of the word “compensation” here……since there’s nothing being lost or taken away, there is nothing to compensate for.

The exploit is soulbinding both Sunrise and Twilight, and then making Eternity. You then sell Eternity, getting most of your money back and keeping both skins (Sunrise + Twilight). Call it a loophole if you will, but that’s clearly not supposed to happen.

Hmmm, I don’t really see why people are getting so angry. If they really did ‘compensate’ people with 2 legendaries by making one tradable, how would it affect you anyways? Reversing the argument around, if the compensation does occur, you aren’t losing anything as a person who isn’t affected.

What I wanna know more about however, is what are they going to do about the Eternity exploit.

Vukorep.3081:

i can understand the problem here…but people are forgetting you can instantly sell any blue-green item for 2-5 S on tp..and you get a TON of them.

daily dungeon runs can give you over 20gold per day very easy

Spvp gives 10-15S each match

And everyone can “play the TP”

people are just lazy to work for some gold, and qq about spending 2s on a wp…

oooh Guild wars 1, how i miss your farming days

Ah, I remember GW1’s farming days. Inflation got so out of hand players switched to using ectos as currency.

Flytrap.8075:

Meglobob.8620:

I think if you dig through all the details on the feature patch, all players will be poorer overall anyway.

Overall, its a definite nerf to every players gold/bank balance. You will have additional costs buying new traits/runes/sigils/jewelry, have to pay double waypoint costs occasionally, less loot in ALL champion bags, unless you are in a mega guild you can’t do world bosses as often.

Don’t forget that they found a way to make people buy transmutations more often through the Gem Store with their wardrobe changes.

Or that they finally managed to monetize a whole game-mode by tying your PvE appearance to sPvP.

Or that unidentified dyes will no longer drop in the open world and are being added to the Gem Store now.

I dont really see how any of that is a gold sink….. or really how its different in terms of monetisation to what we have now.

CC Danicia.1394:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Can you guys do a summary of the feedback and suggestions you’ve been forwarding to the devs and show it on the forums?

Like the summaries Chris and co does at the end of CDIs.

It is quite possible, maybe once we have all the blogs posted. We really appreciate how great the community is being by keeping the feedback to (mostly) individual feedback threads. It has been much easier to help ….

….and whilst typing, I have more information. We’ll be rounding up a lot of stuff shortly, so keep an eye out for that once all the Feature updates are released.

Is this on its way now :V?

I don’t mind mounts as long as you can’t ride them into cities and towns. In ESO I feel like smacking the guy off his horse everytime I see someone on a horse in a town, especially inside a building.

It’s like driving a car into someone’s house. You put your horse in the town stable.

Linnes.2678:

So upon asking the question on a board “what would you like to see change with Arena Net?” here are some of the responses:

This was all added within the first 10 minutes of asking, I think just based off the negative answers in such a short time frame can really reflect upon the game itself. To a new player the game may look great, and may seemingly have endless content, but to players who have devoted a year and a half, it’s been a bumpy and disappointing ride. Yes you’re making right steps towards the future, but these are things that SHOULD HAVE been implemented at launch, as you claimed they would be. THIS is what your players are thinking Arena Net, THIS is what we want to see done. Stop looking through rose-colored glasses at your game and actually take the time to listen to the player base.

So…. you’re saying that its odd to see so many complaints as the answer to a thread/board/whatever about….. asking for complaints?

It does have its uses, mainly for trashmob skipping and that stuff.

If you don’t have any other sources of a mass might-generation, staff might actually be good for the team’s overall DPS as well. Mostly its just a bad weapon however.

But I just tend to use a staff sometimes anyways, because its fun to play around with it. Neither me nor my guild really cares that much about shaving a few mins at most off a run.