I wanted to play an agile fighter but didn’t want to play a Ranger due to pets (how I hate AI). I’ve always loved stealth classes, and the Thief was a natural fit.
Also, S/D is probably the most fun build I have EVER played. Its just amazing.
Shadow Refuge + ShadowStep+ Infiltrator’s Arrow=Uncatchable by anything.
Others have already mentioned things to do with it (land burst, stun break, condi removal,etc). Shadowstep is the one skill I don’t leave home without.
Evading a Backstab Thief’s combo and then beating their face into the ground. They just look like a deer in the headlights. Like, “How is he not dead? I don’t know what to do now, so Heartseeker? Wait, I’m dead now. WTH just happened?”. Good times.
Implement new game types and maps, ladders, a matchmaking system and all sorts of other things. What I REALLY want to see right now are arenas. 1v1 and 3v3 especially.
6 runes of the mesmer
1 sigil of para,1 sigil of rage on s/d
1 sigil of fire on shortbow (personal pref)
Berserk amulet
Heal: Hide in shadows
Utility: Scorpion wire, shadow step, shadow refuge (you can mix and match with dev venom, roll for init and signet of agility for cond removal, depends on enemy setup)
Elite: thieves guild (Basilik venom is overkill, plus spending 1.5 out 3 stealth sec casting isn’t good, but if you feel you need it sure)
Defensive variant: Get 2 sigils of para, Knight’s amulet, Shadowstep,roll for init, shadow refuge. Try to daze the enemy as much as possible, let someone else do the dmg.
Needs a spike build partner that you communicate with to be effective.
I know sigils of Paralyzation increase “stun” duration but is Daze a stun?
Sigil of Paralyzation affects daze as well. Its actually a 33% increase, not 15% like the tooltip says. It doesn’t stack with runes of Mesmer though.
Also, 15 Shadow 15 Trickery is a much better variant than 30 Trickery. Infusion of Shadow is amazing.
I main a Thief, and this was still one of the funniest things I have ever read on any forums. Good job man.
Fortunately, I don’t play Backstab, so I doubt the 15th will affect me at all
I really hope not. I originally ran to S/D to get away from all the QQ. And While the weapon set is 10x more powerful then people realize, its still not nearly as bad as the backstab build. Tactical Strike is bugged atm anyway. I hit people in the front and still daze them consistantly. It also blinds and dazes when its only suppose to do one or the other. Fix those two bugs and we may have the first skill based thief build. Wouldn’t that be nice.
I’ve never had it daze and blind at the same time. However, the side is considered part of the back when it comes to dazing. It only blinds if you’re practically right in front of the target. One step to either side of your enemy and you will daze them. That’s how it is intended.
Also, Zunhar… RE Shadow’s Embrace, wouldn’t that only remove 1 condition (or 2?) given that we’re only in stealth for 3s, or are you chaining stealths together for maximum impact?
It actually removes 2. One condition is removed upon entering stealth, and another condition is removed 2-3 seconds later. Meld with Shadows allows the second condition removal to happen. Considering how many times you plan on going into stealth, condi classes aren’t very effective against you.
I will sometimes chain stealth, whether for the healing from SR or while trying to disengage/runaway.
Using DD 4 times in a row is not burst. Backstab is burst.
Neither of you thought to dodge/heal/Mist Form/ whatever?
What did you do, stand there for the entire fight and let the Thief cast DD 4 times?
To be fair, letting “the Thief cast DD 4 times” isn’t the issue. It can be done instantly.
Yeah there are ways around taking the damage and minimizing it, but if it catches you off guard as a low HP pool build—you’re most likely going to go down.
If you get caught off guard as a low HP build you’re going to go down easy, no matter what the opponent was using.
Dancing Dagger is not instant, nor can it be done instantly. It has a cast time and animation travel time.
Part of playing well is knowing when to use your dodge/defensive skills. Negating DD is one of those times.
The cast time is 1/4th of a second. No sense in defending DD, it’s already going to get hit in the next patch. I play a thief, don’t be delusional.
I also play a Mesmer, Engineer, and Warrior. So what? I don’t have a problem with DD, why do you?
Its dodgeable, reflectable, and most imporantly, easily conterable.
So, it cripples and does some damage. Sounds like a nice anti-kiting melee tool. Still not sure what the problem is.
Dropping 10 points in Acro and putting them in CS would allow you to gain 100 more precision, 10% more crit damage, and the godly trait that is Executioner.
Sigil of Paralyzation actually acts as a 33% daze increase, not 15% that is stated on the sigil. It, unfortunately, does not stack with Runes of the Mesmer.
Also, Shadow’s Embrace is most likely the best condition removal a Thief has. It removes 1 condition on entering stealth and 1 condition every three seconds after that. Combined with Meld with Shadows, and you have an amazing condi removal tool.
These were just my tips/advice, as I too have come to love S/D.
Recently someone made the suggestion to make Initiative regeneration conditional on how much Initiative you have. If Initiative regeneration would work like that it would improve Thieves gameplay in multiple ways.
It would give Thieves more DPS because they can use their abilities more frequently but the spike damage would remain the same. Burn all your Initiative for a spike would come with a greater opportunity cost. Skills that regain some Initiative points would become more powerful because they can bring you quickly out of that low recharging area.
Only problem I have with this is the fact that it encourages auto attacking and not using skill that cost Initiative. Its basically identical to TOR’s Bounty Hunters Heat mechanic, which absolutely sucked.
@Dacromir
I agree with everything you said in the “soft-hard counter” section, but wanted to add 1 thing to your Thief list.
Getting the drop on a Thief or landing your opener is probably the best tactic in the entire game to kill Thieves. They just melt under any sort of pressure.
Using DD 4 times in a row is not burst. Backstab is burst.
Neither of you thought to dodge/heal/Mist Form/ whatever?
What did you do, stand there for the entire fight and let the Thief cast DD 4 times?
To be fair, letting “the Thief cast DD 4 times” isn’t the issue. It can be done instantly.
Yeah there are ways around taking the damage and minimizing it, but if it catches you off guard as a low HP pool build—you’re most likely going to go down.
If you get caught off guard as a low HP build you’re going to go down easy, no matter what the opponent was using.
Dancing Dagger is not instant, nor can it be done instantly. It has a cast time and animation travel time.
Part of playing well is knowing when to use your dodge/defensive skills. Negating DD is one of those times.
Using DD 4 times in a row is not burst. Backstab is burst.
Neither of you thought to dodge/heal/Mist Form/ whatever?
What did you do, stand there for the entire fight and let the Thief cast DD 4 times?
It bounces a maximum of 4 times, or hits 2 targets twice. The Thief used Dancing Dagger at least 4 times.
If there’s only 1 target it only hits once because there is nothing for it to bounce to.
How to counter Backstab?
Keep IS up at all times. Let him land (or if you can dodge it) CnD Steal combo and use SR to disengage and remove stun. Let him pop out of stealth, then land whatever combo you have (for S/D, it’s CnD-Steal-Tactical Strike-Autoattack). It’s really easy beating anything short of a bunker build with S/D.
Like:
Gear is only cosmetic, a rank 1 has the same stats as a rank 40.
Experimeting with a flexible trait system.
Weapon swapping and how weapons determine your skills
Being able to create a new character and start playing on a level field in 5 minute
The environment encourages tactial play and strategical thinking
Its fun
Dislike:
I don’t feel like I’m making any “progress” as there is no ranking system
Free tournies are not solo friendly (paid should be for competitive players with groups)
Only 3 maps (RotC does NOT count)
Only 1 game type (main issue right now for me)
Changing characters mid tournament
Too many extreme builds, not enough hybrids/middle ground builds
BUGS
Might have left off one or two likes/dislikes, but thats pretty much it.
Wiffing CnD absolutely sucks and is probably the best counter to any Thief with an offhand dagger as long as you can survive their burst.
@Thorp
Sometime I even enjoy fighting Mesmers. Their Illusions are such great targets to land CnD on because they don’t evade, move, etc.
I vote for riposte/parry as other posters have said. Channeled block—>enemy attacks—damage spike and boon removal. If you’re not attacked you gain initaitve (like the spear skill)? I don’t know, I just really want Flanking Strike to be improved.
I had a similiar idea to Cassie for S/D – Flanking Strike is actually good for me, but the style strikes me as more of a swordplay style than a finesse style. A channeled block/daze + damage on successful block type of mechanic would be nice. The animation could be something along the lines of holding the dagger forwards, and a slight step sideways dragging the dagger down to simulate a parry, followed by a quick sword flourish that does a good chuck of damage while the enemy is dazed.
I really like this idea. It continues the whole control aspect of S/D. Roughly the same damage as Flanking Strike (maybe a slight increase), but instead of an evade it’s a channeled block that dazes opponents when they hit you.
On a somewhat related note;
I would really like to see unpopular weapon sets (like S/D, P/D, etc). to be buffed or changed to make them more competitive. I’m sick of seeing 95% of Thieves wielding dual daggers…
I like CnD-Steal. It feels synergitec (if thats even a word). Making Steal not usable with any other skill would destroy S/D burst though. I’m not sure what the correct change here is though.
Just a tip;
Don’t cleanse conditions when there is only like 2-3 stacks of bleeds. The “sweet” spot is about 7-9 stacks of bleeds. Too much more than that and the conditions will kill you. If you cleanse before that, they get reapplied too easily. Cleanse poison when possible, as it is generally long duration and affects your heals (you heal 33% less when poison is on you).
@Zunhar, that is the current model though. Stealth, with the number of ways to access it is one of the best defensive mechanics in the game and it’s tied to warrior level of burst.
As you’re saying that stealth is the only defensive mechanice, then again put it on par with the longer cd defensive mechanics of other classes. As it is now, specs are littered with the ability to enter into stealth virtually at will. Stealth for 5 inititiative…combined with auto attack damage while rebuilding it is over the top.
As Daays said, Cloak and Dagger, which is the best way to enter stealth, costs 6 initaitve which is half of a Thieves entire skill bar of initiative, so Thieves definitely can’t go into stealth “at will”.
I know where you are coming from. Its frustrating to fight an opponent that you can’t see half the match. The rendering issue should be fixed, and then stealth looked at.
Not to be “that guy”, but if you die to auto attack something is wrong.
@ Stiv
I’m pretty sure you move slower while in stealth then when not in stealth. I know everything else effects you normally. Could a dev please clear this up?
@ Pyrial
No, I’m not suggesting that everyone have access to Guardian level defense and Warrior level burst. What I AM saying it that all classes have some sort of damage mitigation tool except for Thieves. That’s what I’m saying. Thieves also have the lowest base health in the game, on par with Elementalists and Guardians.
I see a bunch of, “Dont nerf me bro”.
Nerfing thief damage will not be the rise of more bunkers, it will be the rise of more classes being able to go DPS.
When we dont have to fear being bursted down in >3 sec. by a kitten player playing an OP class….thats when this game will start to shine.
And then all you other bad players that keep asking for stupid nerfs will find something new to complain about, and repeat the cycle of forum warrioring.
p.s. I play a thief along with 4 other classes.
This isn’t about nerfing damage. It’s known that is going to happen. OP is talking about nerfing stealth which is a thief’s only defensive mechanic (aside from evasion which is global).
This should be posted on the front page of the forums. Thieves only defense mechanic is stealth and evades. No damage immunities, no easy protection application, nothing. Just stealth.
1. Fix the bug that plagues it, correct the rendering issue.
Any combination of the following:
2. Lengthen the revealed debuff (if fixing the rendering issue isn’t an option, then this debuff should be lengthened substantially).
3. Movement reduction while in stealth
I’ve come to terms with thieves being bursty, the trade off needs to come from the built in survivability of stealth and with its current form there is no trade off.
There is a movement reduction applied while in stealth. I’m not sure what it is though.
I like the fact that you’re taking time to think out suggestions instead of just calling for nerfs. I don’t, however, like the suggestions.
Since 4/5 of D/D skills are direct damage, it would make more sense to make LDB do direct damage.
I like the daze on Tactical Strike and its what makes S/D worth playing.
Your pistol suggestions are pretty cool though. I think all of our weapon sets should have some way to go into stealth (maybe not shortbow though).
If they changed Body Shot to apply some sort of condition (I’m thinking short duration burning) then P/P is now a viable condition set, but then it lacks direct damage. Not sure what to do with that set.
It doesn’t negate the cast time at all. It is simply used part of the way through an ability to take you to your target, so you can reliably land the skill. It doesn’t shorten the cast time either. It simply moves you to your target and then the precasted. skill connects
Backstab MIGHT need to be nerfed, I don’t know though. However, the CnD-Steal combo is fine as is. It’s similar to an ele’s CE-LF, yet that never gets complained about.
Also, as far as I know, Thieves are one of the only classes without some form of damage reducing utility skill, weapon skill, or traits. Our damage avoidance comes through the form of evades and stealth, which doesn’t even stop damage.
It’s most definitely an intended mechanic. Its just like using skills that were not on the GCD in other MMO’s.
@Animosity
Without any traits, the C&D-Steal combo actually costs 6 initiative, half of a Thieves entire bar of initiative.
Steal gives 3 init, and BS is free. So really your doing 15k+ damage for 3 initiative. But I’m not trying to turn this into a thread about thieves.
As mentioned, you have to TRAIT to make steal return initiative. It doesn’t do it on it’s own.
Backstab, without modifiers like Signets, will hit for about 4-5k damage. Not a whole lot.
People won’t stop crying about Thieves and their skills until the Thief is nerfed so badly nobody plays them anymore and the whiny kittenes move on to a new class to whine about. It’s this generation of gimme, gimme, gimme, easy, easy, easy children that play games these days. It’s a lot in part of course to WoW due to Blizzard dumbing their own game down so badly that even a petrified stick could play the game.
What ever happened to people showing some balls and learning some strategies? I remember not too long ago if I was playing in an arcade on lets say, Street Fighter 2 and this dude walks in and kicks my kitten with Guile, I didn’t just cry about how to nerf Guile, I put another gd quarter in and played against that guy until I WON. I learned his patterns, I learned his weaknesses, then I used that knowledge to exploit his mistakes and patterns and beat him.
Obviously this could go back and forth, but eventually the games would be about even on every match until the matches always came down to that last little hit. That was FUN. That was competition. That was what PvP is, not this nerf, nerf, nerf, whine, whine, whine, bullkitten. And that’s the problem with 90% of the people crying about the Thief. They don’t want to put that virtual quarter in and go back and learn to beat their kitten Hell, if they even TRIED to learn how to beat their kitten I’d help them out in any way I could. kitten, I’d probably even let them win a few times against me just to make them feel better. In the end, none of this even matters, Anet isn’t going to listen to crybabies, they listen to their computer models that feed them all the data they use to buff and nerf. They don’t play their own game and they don’t care what we have to say unless it’s an exploit or a bug. Sorry for the rant, but these topics are really getting old.
I just want to destroy all your argument in one question:
How much time and/or efforts did you took, as a Thief, to learn how to counter a Necromancer?
Depends on the Necro, but I assume you’re talking about a staff one. That is the necros weapon I am most familiar with because it seems like every necro uses a staff. Anyway,
Dogde over the marks.
Interrupt the 4 ability while they are in Death Shroud.
Cleanse condition when they hit the "sweet"spot (7-9 stacks of bleeds)
Burst him down before he has time to gain Life Force for Death Shroud again.
Dodge the Warhorn skill that dazes you (Wail of Doom?)
Apply constant pressure.
That’s pretty much what goes through my head whenever I fight a Necro.
Thieves are in the same boat. We have the worst health pools in the game. Your also wearing heavy armor.
actually no, they get a much better conversion of vitality to hp then guardians, its just no thief actually puts vitality on their gear because they don’t need to, perma stealth.
What the hell does “conversion of vitality” mean? I’m pretty sure that 1 point of vitality equals 10 Health points on ALL the classes.
You can’t “perma stealth” as a Thief. Rendering is a whole different issue, and Thieves should not be nerfed based on the bug, the bug should be fixed.
There is a 3 second delay whenever a Thief comes out of stealth before he can go back into stealth again.
It’s most definitely an intended mechanic. Its just like using skills that were not on the GCD in other MMO’s.
@Animosity
Without any traits, the C&D-Steal combo actually costs 6 initiative, half of a Thieves entire bar of initiative.
Basically what Volrath said. Since we all play Thieves, we know exactly how to counter other Thieves when they go into stealth. “He probably went here, so let’s swap to shortbow and AoE the heck out of that area” Stuff like that. Similar to Mesmers when fighting other Mesmers always know which one the real one is. Since I play both a Mesmer and a Thief ( and a warrior and engineer) I generally have very little trouble fighting either of those two classes.
There is a cooldown after exiting stealth. It’s called revealed, and it lasts 3 seconds. What you’re experiencing is what’s known as a rendering issue, where even after the Thief leaves stealth he does not show up on your screen for another second or two.
This is in no way the professions fault.
It was either the rendering issue, you’re exaggerating, or the Thief was hacking.
Rip the Thief’s stability, then CC him. He is now dead. Problem solved.
Steal (when traited) rips boons, Flanking Strike rips boons, certain sigils rip boons, the list goes on and on…
@Redscope
DS is also an elite and has a 90 second cooldown. What’s the cooldown of Whirlwind Attack and Whirling Wrath?
Good production quality and editing. Average skill level. There were a couple “oh, that was good” moments, But most of the time I saw an average Backstab player. I know you were only rank 11 when you made this video (we all probably sucked at rank 11) but next time, show some 1v1 and some close wins/defeats. It’s okay to die. Last comment: that intro was REALLY long. Keep it at about 10 seconds or so.
@Tulisin
I’m not saying S/D is bad because of Flanking Strike. I love S/D more than any other build and the 3 second daze (with sigils etc) is quite powerful and useful. I consider it a viable and competitive weapon set. However, I would like to see FS improved, be it through pathing, increased speed, whatever (preferably a pathing fix and the 2nd strike hit faster). I’m sorry if you thought I was complaining about S/D because FS is a little lackluster. That was not my intent at all.
Or, fix the pathing of it, increase it’s speed, and make it steal (maybe) a boon. You now have a good dual skill. Actually, I would like an increase in all the Swords attack speeds. Its not a greatsword!
Initiative is the drawback to every single skill avaible on Thief weaponsets, just like cooldowns are for other classes. The extra drawback to Heartseeker is, okay, I used Heartseeker, but now I can’t C&D for Backstab, use Dancing Dagger for the double hits on 2 people, or use LDB (if its a bleed build). That is the drawback to using any skill that requires initiative. If you use this, you can’t use this.
Oh yeah, at +50% health, autoattack does more damage than Heartseeker.
