Guild Wars 2

There are good and bad opinions, and everyone has a right to one as paying customers.

It has nothing to do with if you play only hotjoins or not, some opinions are from seasoned players, some are not, some are good, some are bad.

Why do people still keep making threads “calling out” Anet and demanding answers? It’s directly against their forum rules and it’s just going to get deleted.

You can ask your questions and state your grievances in a much less ragey manner and at least the post will stay up for discussion.

Ayestes.1273:

I think the point where the changes are going to come slowly need to be stressed. None of this was even guaranteed to be in the March patch. It’s going to take time. GW2 as a whole is growing as well, so they don’t need to do anything radical. I mean I think their approach is too slow as well, but all this SotG left me with was optimism.

That’s just the problem. Go back and listen to all of their previous SotGs on youtube. They all leave you feeling that way at the time, with that warm fuzzy “they DO listen to us!”, but you’ll notice a trend throughout each of them… not a lot ever changes from SotG to SotG, and it’s been over half a year now, some sense of direction and progress should have been registered by now, considering the generally accepted success of the other two major functions of the game, PvE and WvW.

I’m not even saying I dislike the game, but I am saying, I’m not going to keep playing sPvP religiously or with great dedication for a year or two before they finally tweak their masterpiece into the perfect PvP module in their eyes, especially when all evidence points to the fact that it’s practically impossible to do with any MMO + the fact that they are insistent upon making conquest mode work in and of itself.

It’s pretty evident at this point that Anet has the right idea and the wrong approach to PvP in general, let alone the Engineer profession. If you think all the issues mentioned are just for the March patch, you’ve not been paying attention since BETA, or the last several “major” updates. If you think they are on the right track? You’re right. But you better be REALLY patient, because based on their overall tone of the SOTG, March isn’t going to offer nearly as much change as people are hoping for, just a little bit more than usual of the same minor updates.

Kwll.1468:

wintermute.4096:

kailin.4905:

Xsorus.2507:

No, they said they’re looking at shatter to see if its overpowered, which they won’t determine till after they buff Greatsword/Scepter…Then and only then will they nerf Shatter

So essentially give one of the two or three most powerful and played classes another OP ability then MAYBE nerf there other OP ability a month or five down the road. Meanwhile everyone playing rolls mesmer and loses there kitten when the nerf does come about leading to them re-buffing it the following patch.

Making Greatsword piercing can hardly be called op. After all, it’s #1 is one of the weakest in the game in terms of dps, and how often can you really consistently line up people who are not complete scrubs anyway?
If that is the compensation mesmers get for their primary source of burst, yea, that’s a pretty hard hitting nerf.

Zinwrath.2049:

Xeph, i nearly lost it at my computer …like into tears when you brought up how fighting mesmer/theifs is frusterating and confusing for new players coming into hotjoins and the entire room goes dead silent.

That was the most memorable moment of the whole interview. I pretty much think that summed up everything for me. Massive kick to the nuts, GJ.

Sorry, but we the first impression something makes on complete newbs is not something that should be that important for balancing. Any burst-heavy build can be frustrating for newbs, just look at all the screaming about bull rush + frenzy + 100b after launch. That’s something that surely was pretty frustrating when you had to learn that not doding at the right time was pretty much game over.

Attitudes like this are part of these reason the pvp community is dieing in addition to the cluelessness of the devs. That’s right new players should just shut up and take it that’s a smart way to build your player base up leave in op mechanics because pros can deal with them. Seriously you people get what you deserve in the end which will be like the same 50 morons queuing for tournaments a few months down the line.

This pretty much sums up the core problem for me, a problem the devs won’t/can’t address because they’ve picked their method and their style and it requires too many resources to fix considering they are under constant pressure to move forward with game modes and the usual bells and whistles.

Unfortunately, while I personally think it’s the best PvP engine out there, it’s also probably the most noob unfriendly PvP I’ve ever played.

That, combined with the dev teams dedication to slow, snail-paced changes in a fast-paced gaming industry are poor marketing choices, however philosophically correct they might feel.

Defektive.7283:

aydenunited.5729:

Defektive.7283:

Ryan.9387:

sPvP is awesome in GW2. The depth of combat and the wide variety of effective strategies is just mind boggling. Anet did an excellent job managing to add such a high skill cap to gw2. I only want the fiery dragon sword to be fixed in the next patch. Apart from that gw2 is the best game I have ever played from a PvP perspective.

Said no one ever.

It honestly is one of the better PvP options for any MMO, and most likely the best from a non-subscription game.

And yet it’s doing so poorly.

Just goes to show that there’s definitely an opportunity for a company to come in and shake up the market.

I actually agree with you fully. I don’t think I’ve ever been so satisfied and impressed with a new PvP system and yet so let-down at the same time.

Defektive.7283:

Ryan.9387:

sPvP is awesome in GW2. The depth of combat and the wide variety of effective strategies is just mind boggling. Anet did an excellent job managing to add such a high skill cap to gw2. I only want the fiery dragon sword to be fixed in the next patch. Apart from that gw2 is the best game I have ever played from a PvP perspective.

Said no one ever.

It honestly is one of the better PvP options for any MMO, and most likely the best from a non-subscription game.

kostbabis.8791:

well.. i still dont get why most people havent moved from thieves/mesmers to..eles.
Not irony here i really dont get it :O

I think this actually kind of shows my perspective on this thread… these threads often get derailed into a “if you can’t beat a thief it’s L2P”… when most of us aren’t talking about beating thieves, it’s about the way you have to go about defeating them vs. other professions.

Those professions are played the most or frustrating because they are OP, it’s because people gravitate towards classes that have frustrating mechanics to work against, because it tends to cause the first major divide in talented players. New players that can fight well with other professions will suddenly start to struggle the moment you introduce stealth mechanics, or in the case of the Mesmer, misdirection which causes a similar effect on an opposing player. It’s why Eles aren’t usually complained about as much in pick up play, their full potential really applies to how they perform in point and map control tPvP.

From my perspective, it’s the inherently cheap nature of stealth mechanics from a sPvP perspective in general, and while Mesmers aren’t really stealth masters like thieves, they do have mechanics that allow them to slip around easily and, in a crowded fighting space, get lost in the fray.

My personal opinion, if you MUST use stealth in a game, it should be primarily for scouting/opening attack, and an escape, not a constant every few seconds thing to deal with during the fight, with no tells as to if you’re hitting the stealthed player or not, and no repercussions for the stealthed player if you do, and this game instead chose to flail that power around for a thief like a child with a loaded gun.

JMO.

I would have to say that I have faith, but not patience anymore. I’ve been one of the biggest defenders of this game’s PvP since BETA because the actual PvP engine to me is the best I’ve ever played.

I do not, however, feel that that this game’s current conquest mode is very fun at higher levels. Once I realized that, in an actual tPvP team, my balanced builds, designed for long team fights and balanced 1v1 action were useless against teams that super-bunker with high-movement burst, I realized it doesn’t matter how skilled you are at playing your class, the top end PvP is about map control, outnumbering, and downed state management, arguably the 3 most unfun parts of PvP in and of itself. Balanced hotjoin matches are often fun (when you finally find them) because you don’t feel the stress of fighting out a good 1v1 on a point against someone’s non-bunker non-burst, but in tPvP you are punished for playing with a balanced build.

For me personally, this isn’t talked about much on the forums, but it’s what has finally made me give the game a break… my style of play only fits casual gameplay, and I like to play competetively (relatively speaking) but I don’t like to feel forced to use a build, and tPvP almost forces you to pick bunker or burst. I didn’t believe it for a long time until my old tPvP team started to play the better teams, and I realized, we were outfighting them and still losing every match.

I theorycraft builds for hours that work wonders against 1v1 fights and are completely useless in tPvP, and so there goes my interest in the game. I like to fight in my own style and to customize my builds, and this is nowhere near a top priority for the Devs so I’ve sort of made my piece with the game at this point and pop in to play here and there for now.

It does however seem very odd that a game would offer this massive level of customization for your character and make so much of it useless in competetive play for lots of professions. I think this hits on the thread in this forum about how this game engine and design is incredible, even revolutionary to me, but the sense of direction feels a stark contrast by now.

Still think it’s a very good game overall, however, just dropping off fast from it’s massive potential.

At chess, I can defeat another player, even a good one, without using my queen. That doesn’t change the fact that I could be even better with my queen.

The thief argument has and always boils down to… is it fair? 1v1 as an Engie, I typically prefer fights against thieves to any other profession, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are terribly balanced… that doesn’t mean they are OP, because they obviously are not, but their damage distribution + basically uncounterable stealth movement makes them something that should have been looked at by now, but honestly have really just stayed mostly the same since launch. Stealth is a poor PvP mechanic anyway, and when you add how fast the TTK is in this game along with how frequent the access is to the skill/inability to bring player out of stealth by damage or debuff, it’s a really poor design overall.

Fjandi.2516:

Archaon.6245:

This is not arehundel’s imaginary world (Well you know wvsw, nough said), there are actually some basic rules like:

I agree with the post but, just to clarify, what’s wrong with playing wvw? Ah wait are you one of those pro elitists who specify in every post they write on this forum they play tpvp only? Lol @ zergjoins (meh, that’s kinda true but the sense of superiority in your post is quite childish anyway).
Spvp in this game is boring and repetitive, and tbh wvw is usually more enjoyable. Ofc the balance is even worse there.
That said i think thieves are kinda balanced in spvp, even more so in tpvp. Their class design remains bad tho.

It’s not a slight at WvW, it’s just that when it comes to balance, any mode that has stats and gear will not be as relevant to overall game balance as one that evens the playing field out for everyone. Therefore when talking about balance, most of the time, sPvP or tPvP is the better option, because you take out variables. It has nothing to do with being an elitist, moreso to do with being formulaic.

EaGrimdarK.7849:

So what you’re saying is you joined a game and saw this happening?

Well Im about to BLOW YOUR MIND KID!!! Heres a tip: change the kittening server you are in. OMG INCREDIBLE!!! Yes I know, this concept is impossible for an idiot like you to conceive, but trust me just try it out.

Found the dueler.

You know, it’s just like “find the vegan” except with duelers.

Aio.5430:

Hi,

i came back after many months and played sPvP before i left gw2 for a while.

Not sure when and why it changed to that, but why are there sPvP’s, where nearly “all” players from both teams do absolute nothing for objectives or winning and just “dueling” each other, while the rest of both teams stands around the and watches.
As a “comebacker” or “new-player” this is anything else then appealing to do sPvP, as you may as well just stand around, nobody gives a kitten about winning it anyway.

What did i miss in sPvP in GW2 nowadays?

A-Net refuses to implement dueling, and while I find it pointless when the game’s objective is node control, the general populus wants it enough that they’ve become a mainstay in hotjoin. The main problem is that 8v8 is terrible, and so those of use who don’t want to do tPvP anymore because we don’t have a team and get pubstomped by premades, can’t even find 5v5 matches anymore that easily because they’ve been taken over by duelers.

There’s a select niche of the PvP society in GW2 that is slowly being squeezed out of the game alltogether… the middle ground players. It feels like PvP at the moment is either super casual drop in, drop out, duel a little or premade vs. pug pubstomp action. The upper mid to good players who aren’t super good or elite have no place in the current META without getting frustrated a lot.

In short, I guess what I’m saying is, this dueling thing is a direct result of the game polarizing itself in two directions, you can only enjoy the game’s PvP fully if you are hardcore PvP, or so casual that you don’t even try for match objectives and just fight for some fun with friends.

If you want to play serious and accomplish things with random people, and are a good but not fantastic player, but still want to have a good time while being competitive, currently, this game is doing a very good job of running those players off.

Ahh, I see. So it’s actually just a new button and nothing new at all. Very well chaps, as you were.

Why are premades still showing up so frequently and how?

And furthermore, if you’re a premade, why in the world are you farming solo queue now?

One good fit is in a “very” niche build that uses static discharge as well as stacking burn damage. A niche build, so far as I know, only I’ve run so far consistently, but it’s pretty solid in 1v1 play and general tPvP.

Also, in some other static discharge builds it’s used to give a decent close ranged option for extra damage. The self-CC launchback can often be considered a good option for very flimsy builds to possibly give themselves some breathing room in a crowded fight.

Seetoo.9316:

Punkins.2087:

Uhhh..

You bring in toolbelt damage for grenades, but neglect to use incendiary ammo for the flamethrower??

You bring in kit refinement damage for grenades, but fail to do the same for flamethrower??

You included damage from rifle5 for grenades, but not for flamethrower??

.. static discharge…

You see what I did there.

I think you should rerun your tests, or just fix the math..

Surprise surprise!! Adding toolbelt damage on a build that is highly dependent on the toolbelt. Adding the rifle gap closer damage on a build that requires said gap closer. Whodathunk?

aydenunited.5729:

FT is and has been a staple kit in any sPvP build that has any focus on conditions at all, and definately has a place in several builds… now, because of the condition removal “nerf” alongside EG, I think it’s only drawback is you won’t see as many FT/EG builds. Not like you see many Engies to begin with, but these two kits were part of a build that was basically immune to conditions, which is, I am assuming, part of the reason for the “nerf”

Anyway, short version… FT is a good kit and it just improved a bit.

I honestly don’t understand why people keep saying this “FT … conditions”. What does the FT do with conditions that no other engg option can? The on crit traits are available to every kit/weapon. Is it that FT1 does 5 attacks per sec? Grenades do 6 attacks per sec.

Incendiary Ammo + Runes of Baalthazar + Medikit + FT swap = well over 20 seconds of considerable burn damage even in a power rifle build which doens’t spec at all for conditions.

Add in the CC of the FT kit and it’s a good mix.

Again, like in the other thread, I have to assume you’re strictly speaking from a PvE part of the game, where I’ve heard mixed things about FT kit, but it’s always been an option for us, in spite of it’s buggy nature.

Seetoo.9316:

RaynStargaze.6510:

Good patch!

They tried to make most kits a bit more viable and fixed some really needed bugs like the flamethrower air blast miss. FT is pretty darn awesome now.

Kit refinement change is pretty weird if its really as confuse as mentioned in the other thread – need to test moar.

See, this is the irresponsible crap FT advocates do on these forums. Saying something is “awesome” without a reference is just irresponsible.

The FT is “awesome” compared to its pre patch version (duh!).
The FT is still crap compared to other engg options with the same role.

The devs basically spent time developing a crappy kit to a new level of crappy.

I’m going to assume you’re speaking strictly for PvE, FT kit has been and continues to be a very viable sPvP kit.

FT is and has been a staple kit in any sPvP build that has any focus on conditions at all, and definately has a place in several builds… now, because of the condition removal “nerf” alongside EG, I think it’s only drawback is you won’t see as many FT/EG builds. Not like you see many Engies to begin with, but these two kits were part of a build that was basically immune to conditions, which is, I am assuming, part of the reason for the “nerf”

Anyway, short version… FT is a good kit and it just improved a bit.

So far as I can tell, the only build this patch directly impacted negatively were 4-kit refinement builds who now have to decide either when to use what kit or to take something else in the place of a kit. It’s not a great patch but I’ve honestly not suffered in PvP, I just had to adjust my build a bit. FT kit is pretty solid in sPvP with Runes of Balthazaar + Medikit in my old conditions/power rifle build.

Barely effects the standardly accepted builds, with the exception of EG/FT condition removal builds which are a bit weaker.

The short version: Engineers can be just as good as any other profession overall, but be ready for the very disproportionately high skill level required to achieve the same level results other professions can get much more easily.

google.3709:

Get speedy kits traits on… elixir gun adds 2 condition removal and flame thrower 1 just by switching to the kit ( it has no casting time as well ).. engi have the most condition removals

*Kit Refinement

Thieves are by far my easiest kills unless I’m running a conditions build.

Thieves are most dangerous at close range, we are at our best at delivering crazy close range AoE damage, which means that even when they flicker in and out of stealth, we’re still able to pepper the area with consistent damage that also usually adds a condition.

Add in a few of our CC’s and the fact that Thieves are one of the worst professions at dealing with those, and you get a general formula for thief-killing machines. Builds are all subjective, but we are build to take care of Thieves better than most with the exception of maybe Guardian.

Also, if you’re not running with Kit Refinement + runes and sigils that proc AoEs on heal (with medikit), that’s probably at least part of the problem.

You can also run 4 Nightmares runes and 2 Lyssa, but yes, our standard condition builds now include the 2 Lyssa runes with some other 4 run condition damage/duration runeset. This has been used in tPvP level play by Teldo as well.

In my humble opinion, I could care less about what they call it, rifle, shotgun, boomstick, wooden lead projectile, as long as the moveset is good, and seriously, our rifle 5set is ten times better overall than what the Warrior rifle set offers, aside from auto-attack.

JMO.

Zinwrath.2049:

Uhm…they ARE copying WoW. Look at latest map….see “Eye of the storm” from wow. Huh…gee…wonder where they got the idea from.

Not complaining at all, but lets be fair here. The spvp…i keep trying to get excited enough to play again since pretty much quitting in november. I pop on about once a month…and i see about 20 servers max ..1/4 that are full going at any time. This is CROSS server pvp..and thats about all it gets going. Maybe i’m not on at peak, i dunno but thats still pretty depressing to see.

The game had huge potential in the pvp field, but they didnt learn from the past several mmos or the ones that succeeded in core areas. Most importantly in the fact that the MMO gaming community is not patient and does’nt often give second chances. Like many others they launched the game still very much in a beta state, especially regarding spvp..something that NEEDS relative balance and few bugs…and most importantly what made LoL a success…a good match making system.

They’re just now getting around to fix those, but at a rate that takes months. Most players have lives and other interests and are not arenanet employees with the same passion or just simply fan boys that will drag on to the bitter end always looking towards the end of the rainbow when the game will finally be what they wanted….most people move on and never look back, but instead look to future games.

I was almost driven to check back in in a couple months maybe even start playing it, till SOE announced Everquest Next will be playable at the end of this year. Well…i know nothing about that game, but i’ve been awaiting it for awhile with big expectations.

To be honest, i think this game woulda been a huge success if they had just put all their resources to refining the SPVP system (which imo i think drew most people to the game). Instead it had to share wahtever NCSOFT money they had trying to create an enormious game that simply demanded more than arenanet could handle. SO what we have is a game with lots of good ideas…but littered with problems (aka Age of Conan). and much like AoC, by the time they get their crap together…even free to play isnt gonna save them…because people dont want to log on to a game with no one on it.

Be happy if i was wrong, but history tends to repeat itself…when people dont learn from history.

And there’s the symptom right there. Waiting for Everquest? It’s hyped, and you’ll be disappointed with that one as well. You can’t compete with the time that WoW has put in… people keep saying it isn’t relevant, as if the years Blizzard has put in should show down the the programming pixel exactly how to make a success, and that’s such an ignorant comment as saying K-Mart should learn how to retail because of Wal-Mart.

It doesn’t work that way. Success is built slowly, and those who fail to see it selectively forget it once something becomes a success, because the backstory isn’t as interesting as seeing the downfall. GW2 is and has been doing quite well, mostly due to the popularity of PvE and WvW. PvP has had a multitude of issues, but selective memories are excluding how horrible WoW PvP was in the very beginning.

The short version is, you can learn from your competitors, but they have nothing to do with the programming/vision/direction/popularity of YOUR game as a designer. Everyone copies WoW in the same way Family Guy copied the Simpsons… doesn’t even seem relevant anymore, now that Family Guy is huge, but in it’s early days… yeah?

I agree that Anet at times seems to be doing everything they possibly can to alienate and frustrate the sPvP population compared to how well the other game modes seem to be going, but they are far from defeated and far from dead, though the population has suffered a lot, it’s also a fickle bunch… give some new content and they know the servers will boon again for a while, and new players are still buying GW2 every day and are bound to try out sPvP at some point.

The main point I make is, thankfully, they are different enough from WoW to stake their own place in the PvP gamescape, reguardless of the “Simpsons already did it” attitude that will always be around, and kudos for them to steer that ship in at least a different direction in spite of the similarities.

Divinity.8041:

Eristina.5967:

Divinity.8041:

Sprawl.3891:

SuperHaze.4210:

Wolfheart.1938:

Divinity.8041:

I just hit rank 27 last night, and I was like…wtf am I doing? There are no rewards besides what ANET deems is cooler looking armor.

PvP for better gear, with a ranked system so my gear is not putting me at an advantage versus newer players…whoa wasn’t that simple?

I urge you to reread what you just posted, if you don’t notice a glaring issue with it just ask I’ll point it out.
P.s. Huge WoW E-sports League? I can’t say that with a straight face. Imbalance makes for great E-sport? You must be trolling me…

No one should have a gear advantage. That was what kept games like wow from ever becoming an esport. Why should a skilled player lose to a less skilled player because the less skilled player has more time to grind for the better gear? Skill is skill and that is what it should take to win. Anet just needs to build upon what they already have. Fix the bugs and make a few balance changes. Add some more game modes, ladders, etc. They have a great foundation for esports, but they lack core pvp elements that have already been discussed numerous times on these threads.

gear gaps were a complaint for bad players. Every season gave you plenty of time to max out your gear and then have time to climb the ladder even with limited play time. The only people who complained were the 1500 players who even if you gave them max gear at the start of the season, would remain 1500 players. Good players even made videos of playing in blues and still dominating teams in the 2k ranges who had full gear.

This is so true. Gear didn’t really matter. Because even by sucking and losing 10 games a week, you were only like a week or two in points behind the best players.

Skill>gear even in WoW. I don’t want people talking about PVP unless you were at least 2k+ which IMO was entry point for decent PVP.

If you play for #1 you need the BIS, and it was in pve when I played (s1-s7). (got illidan bow by selling glad, and I had to play with warglaves thieves even if they weren’t the best to win).
Yes you can get to 2k+ without stuff because it was the rating you get by pl or selling/buying.
The system was kitten and there were less competition than now in gw2 (stomp every team except only 1-10 of them in your bg and if you were lucky (like they weren’t doing pl/pve/waiting glad/didn’t stop after 1 loss) you could mb do some intense match.

Again, you act like you can create the perfect system. There is no Utopia for PVP in any game, there will always be ways around the system.

99% of the people on WoW did not do what you just said.

ANET cannot create a perfect system, it is currently garbage.

WoW is currently the best system we have right now, and the fact that you are just complaining about it without offering fixes doesn’t solve anything.

Again, tell me a perfect system that anyone has ever created.

WoW is lightyears ahead of us in this department, and the whole “give it 8 years”

This game will be 100% dead in 8 weeks.

There is no perfect system, but WoW is pretty much there.

For anyone who hasn’t played WoW ranked matches, he is referring to the top 1% of players who would sometimes trade wins vs each other, or dodge other teams because they knew they would lose etc, which is exactly what will happen here, if a hidden rating system is implemented, it is just a bi product that no system can prevent.

I’ve been here since BETA. I’ve been hearing people proclaim the death of this game’s PvP since BETA. Mostly from devout WoW players, oddly enough.

This topic will come and go. The game will not be dead in 8 weeks.

There are a lot of things Anet is doing wrong in the eyes of most of us (ranking, scoring, and the free/paid tournament system for one I agree is awful), but not copying WoW is one of the things they are doing absolutely correct.

You hear similar people complaining about the same thing in reguards to GW1, and at least they have a gripe… GW1 is kind of a relic, whereas WoW is still current and popular and active.

Why not just go play WoW if you want WoW?

Fernling.1729:

aydenunited.5729:

Fernling.1729:

WoW PvP is currently dozens of times more active than gw2 pvp is. I would say that Anet could learn a thing or two.

Give them 8 years.

Terrible argument. Every product out there has to compete with other products that have developed for years. It was the developers responsibility to release the game to compete with other mmos that are already on the market. Anet chose to release a half broken game with bad PvP.
This could have easily been corrected too! If it wasn’t for one of the slowest development teams I have ever witnessed. The game has been out for half a year and they have literally made a mockery of PvPers. The game is going nowhere and Anet has absolutely no intentions on spending anymore time on SPvP.

Thank god for their PR. If it wasn’t for them they wouldn’t have even seen the sales they have.

Give the PR team 8 more years and see what they can do.

It’s a small nuance and tiny advantage, in my opinion, one that would be rectified by enemy castbars as an option for those who want to use it.

Fernling.1729:

WoW PvP is currently dozens of times more active than gw2 pvp is. I would say that Anet could learn a thing or two.

Give them 8 years.

The problem is this.

1) 8v8 teaches you nothing and serves no value other than farming glory.

2) 5v5 gets used primarily for dueling, which for tPvP and forward, can actually handicap your ability to play in a team.

The result? When you pug, you still find players trying to slug it out in a random location with another player who’s just stalling for time, or 3 people run to all try to cap henge or mine at the start of a match, not even realizing how they are already going to lose to the team that knows the game is about point control, and how would they know? All game modes that are not tPvP rewards you for playing selfishly.

It’s a very good game and a very good PvP mode handicapped by probably the worst “weening-in” phase of any game I can remember. It’s like letting people play outside freestyle tossing a football around and then, tomorrow, expecting them to play each position on the field to their perfect role, based on free-for-all backyard play.

blutstein.2468:

aydenunited.5729:

Decklan.7540:

You’re lack of respect for WvW is matched by my lack of respect for sPvP.

There are small skirmishes all the time in WvW. I also feel there are far more options available in regards to builds, runes, stat allocation, etc.

I feel a good WvW build is harder to come up with than a good sPvP with it’s one amulet and less upgrade component choices.

I get sick and tired of sPvP elitists always showing up and discounting anything because it doesn’t adhere to their pure sPvP meta. You have these ideas in your head that you have to “run full burst” or “run full bunker.” That is a result of the sPvP meta and the mere fact that you can’t allocate stats in balanced ways that net success.

In PvE and WvW you can. You are simply being close minded.

As of this post I feel horrible falling into your troll trap.

Good luck to you, if you change your mind about sPvP in relation to WvW feel free to PM me and we can discuss ideas.

this kind of ‘you are not worty for discussion without being my opinion, i played xxx hours and so i’m better than you. My word is law’ answer shows cleary HOW close minded you are.

to OP: Run a very similar build and never looked back at the ONE AND ONLY cough burst spec.

It shows that sometimes there is a communication divide or a fundamental difference of opinion that dictates no possible way of productive communication, especially on a forum where people tend to get more defensive, and it’s the nicest way I knew to end the series of posts without just leaving altogether and still leave the door open to discuss things IF the other person changed their mind.

Decklan.7540:

You’re lack of respect for WvW is matched by my lack of respect for sPvP.

There are small skirmishes all the time in WvW. I also feel there are far more options available in regards to builds, runes, stat allocation, etc.

I feel a good WvW build is harder to come up with than a good sPvP with it’s one amulet and less upgrade component choices.

I get sick and tired of sPvP elitists always showing up and discounting anything because it doesn’t adhere to their pure sPvP meta. You have these ideas in your head that you have to “run full burst” or “run full bunker.” That is a result of the sPvP meta and the mere fact that you can’t allocate stats in balanced ways that net success.

In PvE and WvW you can. You are simply being close minded.

As of this post I feel horrible falling into your troll trap.

Good luck to you, if you change your mind about sPvP in relation to WvW feel free to PM me and we can discuss ideas.

Decklan.7540:

I have plenty of burst ayde, thank you very much.
I can still down glass cannons in mere seconds.
I have more CC then them to boot.

It is effective. I have played static discharge for months, I know the numbers it can pull, and it is not that much of a tradeoff when you gear for more survivability.

What exactly is a full CC build pray tell? Tool Kit of course, Rifle of Course. Want me to add slick shoes and flamethrower as well for the knockback? Tell me how my CC is not “Full” CC.

You must think Engineers have 10 utility slots and can grab every CC ability we have in the game.

As of this post I’ve played 814 hours/1,409 sPvP matches as an Engineer.

WvW builds are the most open-ended, least subjective builds in the game for so many reasons. That’s not to belittle a build that you currently have working for you, that’s only to say that you can get away with a lot of unusual build ideas in WvW whereas you can’t in any serious PvE or sPvP.

My original response was basically to say… in this game, as a general rule, if you’re going to run burst, you run full burst, there is absolutely no benefit to running a “kind of” burst spec, since burst specs in and of their inherent traits are meant to kill fast or die fast. Generally speaking, if you run burst, and “back off” of the burst to add a little more CC, a little more survivability, a little more (insert trait) you typically downgrade the overall point of the burst spec.

That’s all I’m saying. If it’s working for you, that’s great. But it’s WvW… you have to take it with a grain of salt, there are way too many variables to consider the moment you start to mention something along those lines.

CriSPeH.8512:

aydenunited.5729:

CriSPeH.8512:

You are all fools.
He just explained how he pulls enemies out of their zerg, CC’s them and then knocks them down with another possible knockdown on the way all while applying cripple and vulnerability. This means the enemy will either have to burn their escape or get burned down by your zerg. No matter what kind of damage you are doing that control alone makes you useful to your group.

An Engie wont buff or heal you well but they can make it very easy for you to get kills.

First of all, thanks for calling us all fools.

Secondly, if that’s all this build does, explain to me how it’s any different than ANY build that has Toolkit for magnet pull + a couple of CC utilities, if that’s what it brings to the group, why bother with half-hearted burst? Why not go full CC?

If you want to throw in the whole cripple and vulnerability thing, I can throw in a couple other dozen builds that can apply that as well, since we’re getting sassy about it.

Sorry. No harm meant by fools.

And I was more just crudely pointing out that the usefullness of the Engineer comes in many different ways and almost all of them don’t really rely on huge burst damage.

I agree. If we’re talking about CC, really this just comes down to a couple of utilities, not a build at all in this particular case. We’re talking WvW… if the focus of your build is that you’re pulling enemies into a zerg where they are outnumbered, your build really doesn’t matter.

Decklan.7540:

Thank you Crispeh.
Ayde wants me to just change my heavy CC build with good burst damage into the already well-known glass cannon burst static discharge build.

Rifle Turret is useless compared to a knockdown.
Surprise Shot is LESS burst damage than LPBR and does not have a cripple. Sure you can cast it every 8 seconds, but who cares? That is DPS you are referring to, which is damage per second not burst.

I will try the variant mentioned by Kyon tonight – 0 / 20 / 10 / 10 / 30
100 more toughness and a protection buff off crit instead of knockdown seems interesting. Or, maybe give the cloak on immobilize trait a whirl.

What I’m telling you is, there’s not POINT to making a CC based build that is a knockoff of a burst build, just go CC. If your burst or damage doesn’t matter, then it doesn’t matter. If it does, go full burst. There is NO half-burst build in the game that’s as good as a full burst, and burst specs in general in WvW are bad. So why are you running a hybrid? To me, if you are running WvW to CC enemies, I would go full CC with survivability, since the point is to pull the enemy into your GROUP. If you want to solo other solo enemies? Full burst is better. That’s my point.

CriSPeH.8512:

You are all fools.
He just explained how he pulls enemies out of their zerg, CC’s them and then knocks them down with another possible knockdown on the way all while applying cripple and vulnerability. This means the enemy will either have to burn their escape or get burned down by your zerg. No matter what kind of damage you are doing that control alone makes you useful to your group.

An Engie wont buff or heal you well but they can make it very easy for you to get kills.

First of all, thanks for calling us all fools.

Secondly, if that’s all this build does, explain to me how it’s any different than ANY build that has Toolkit for magnet pull + a couple of CC utilities, if that’s what it brings to the group, why bother with half-hearted burst? Why not go full CC?

If you want to throw in the whole cripple and vulnerability thing, I can throw in a couple other dozen builds that can apply that as well, since we’re getting sassy about it.

Decklan.7540:

aydenunited.5729:

Decklan.7540:

Bromi,
I’m assuming you mean Surprise Shot by “7s Discharge.”
I don’t take Surprise Shot as I feel you are wasting a slot on a turret you barely use. Also, LPBR has a cripple in addition to doing nearly double the damage of surprise shot.

I never said you don’t bring much to the party, I said you don’t bring combo fields to the party. Plenty of builds help out the party in other ways. I am saying you help out the group with your multiple CC options.

I don’t have a reply for aydenunited. You’re basically saying go back to glass cannon static discharge, which I played for months and felt was way too squishy. I’ve been running this for a few weeks now with a lot of success in T1 WvW.

You can literally run just about anything and claim success in WvW, there’s too much gear discrepancy.

In PvP, there is not. And running a “kind of” burst build is not a viable option in tPvP, maybe in pick up play sPvP.

Also, rifle turret compares because of the SD from igniting a rifle turret + the fact that it’s not interruptable on any discharge, and it’s on an 8 second CD in most SD builds.

This is filled with false statements.
PvP is very different from WvW. There are numerous builds that only work in PvP in my opinion and function horribly in WvW. Look at confusion stackers for example. They wouldn’t be caught dead in sPvP due to the 50 percent damage nerf, but throw them in WvW with an epidemic necro and your group will win almost all 10 v 10 battles.

But then again, this isn’t a sPvP build. Nor is it a PvE build. There are plenty of those out there for you to look at. This build isn’t trying to be any of those. When I sPvP i play full bunker by the way (VERY different from static discharge).

As to your statement, “you can run just about anything in WvW and claim success” is simply untrue. Maybe on lower tiers where people like to level alts up in WvW, but in T1 I can count on my hand how many times I join a random group and see someone under level 80 and undergeared. The game has been out for MANY months now and most people have realized that it’s way faster to level up OUTSIDE of WvW then INSIDE WvW. So yes, you need a spec and build that will be effective or else you are hurting your team. By your standards I could run a berserker power pistols build and be effective which is simply not true.

EDIT: Detonating Turret to proc static discharge is WILDLY unreliable. It’s like activating soothing mist to proc static discharge. It’s easy to dodge and rarely hits “smart” players.

The detonation of a turret to SD proc is absolutely no different from a dodge standpoint than any other single button press move.

Xae.7204:

Less thinking it was created to troll…

More thinking it was hastily thrown together and never finished, and now that the game has launched no one has the will to say “We need to actually fix/finish this class instead of pretending everything is fine”.

It’s not nearly as bad as you think, it’s just bugged, and much more challenging to play effectively than other professions. At it’s summit, it’s not nearly as bad as it’s often presented on this forum.

Decklan.7540:

Bromi,
I’m assuming you mean Surprise Shot by “7s Discharge.”
I don’t take Surprise Shot as I feel you are wasting a slot on a turret you barely use. Also, LPBR has a cripple in addition to doing nearly double the damage of surprise shot.

I never said you don’t bring much to the party, I said you don’t bring combo fields to the party. Plenty of builds help out the party in other ways. I am saying you help out the group with your multiple CC options.

I don’t have a reply for aydenunited. You’re basically saying go back to glass cannon static discharge, which I played for months and felt was way too squishy. I’ve been running this for a few weeks now with a lot of success in T1 WvW.

You can literally run just about anything and claim success in WvW, there’s too much gear discrepancy.

In PvP, there is not. And running a “kind of” burst build is not a viable option in tPvP, maybe in pick up play sPvP.

Also, rifle turret compares because of the SD from igniting a rifle turret + the fact that it’s not interruptable on any discharge, and it’s on an 8 second CD in most SD builds.

This forum is full of politicians… take one thing said, pull it way out of context, use it to complain in general about something you are unhappy about.

Believing that Anet spent countless man hours to create a profession exclusively to troll their own playerbase is just a little bit silly.

IMO when you water down burst to survive a bit more, you just ruin the burst. Burst is meant to kill easy and die easy with an Engie, only Mesmers and Thieves are excluded from this category.

There is no survivable engineer burst spec, having 0 points in Explosives (power) means you just gimp your overall non-crit damage of your static discharge, in a static discharge build.

My first serious Engineer build was a turret bunker, and while I realize the shortcomings of that build now, I did quite well with it in tPvP free tournies. With accelerated turrets, it really can frustrate opponents and buy a lot of time with smart use.

Not a great build, weak to conditions, but not nearly as bad as the board makes it seem, but this board tends to be a bit dramatic in general. Turret CDs are the major kicker right now for PvP, and the inability to focus your target. Fix those two things and their usefulness greatly increases, I would even venture to say make us the best offensive bunker in the game, since turrets don’t downscale damage with defensive gear stats.

Walorx.5129:

Just want to point out that Teldo was either not playing 100nades at all, or extremely badely. He never once did the right way to burst (immob, stand on top, swap to nade kit, barrage, etc). I would not base this build’s “power” judging from him.

1) Most very good teams don’t get tethered so easily as to let you walk right into their avatar and spam a 1-2 grenade punch, especially if they know that’s what you’re doing. If you don’t adjust this build to get more everyday use out of those grenades, it’s just a gimmick build. Just because he didn’t have a level 10 new tPvP player to immobilize, walk into their avatar square one, and spam 2 buttons quickly doesn’t mean he isn’t playing it right no more than it means the build is “OP”, which is the light you’ve chosen to colour this thread.

2) It’s Teldo, and he’s better than you.

3) I actually can’t tell if you’ve been trolling, because from your other posts, I’ve thought you were spot on with most things, but this one baffles me, coming from you, calling this build “OP”. Maybe it feels that way since we have no other options to insta-gib anyone, but considering it’s the hardest to set-up insta-gib in the game done by one of the least represented professions… seems like it wouldn’t be a priority, or warrant it’s own “OP” thread, unless it curtailed just a very good night of noob-stomping on your tPvP team that made you suddenly feel 10 feet tall.

Just my opinion. I don’t have a tPvP team at the moment, so I might be way out of the loop.

Seems to be working now. Not sure if this was mentioned, I didn’t see anything in any patch notes specifically stating it working for Engineers now, but it does. Just something to consider for any condition based builds out there, it’s not a bad take along with pistol/EG builds.

We are basically the only profession whose downstate can help other players on our team. In a team play scenario, it’s not too bad, perhaps a 1 second reduction on the timing of #3 would suffice, but from our downstate our regular attack can add chill, which slows down an enemy player as well. We can do a lot from downstate to help the team unless you are only concerned about yourself, in which case, yes, our downstate isn’t a very good one.

Kardiamond.6952:

@aydenunited
@NevirSayDie

I don’t see what you guys are talking about?

100nade is one of our only top tier build.

I’m far from being good, but I play a lot of spvp/tpvp paid and I had no issue with other engineer. I also don’t have any more issue with duel then any other build.

100 nade is a really good “support” build, but it’s not only about that. Sure you won’t like pressure, but 2on2 or 3on3, I can carpet fire the place and give our team the winning edge.

100nade also have a lot of defensive option, and can be hard to catch up.

@aydenunited

I don’t need my target to be unaware of it. Even if someone know I will 100 nade them (they even call it in chat sometime) they will eat it anyway. Just bait them in using their defensive cooldown. You don’t 100nade right away if you dont have the surprise effect. Make them waste their CD, hit them a bit then BOOM death.

@Lepri

I have no issue in WvW with it. I have perma vigor, elixir S, gear shield, nails and KR nails, chill grenade.

Just position yourself, be ready to pop elixir S for thief, and you shouldn’t die often. From time to time, pull an ennemy in, net and combo him.

I will clarify my stance on the build like this; this is probably our best high-end damage option available, so in that sense, if you ONLY justify viability based on damage, yes, it’s our top-tier option, with a significant amount of sacrifice of survivability compared to other burst professions. I wouldn’t mention that, because I know burst are not meant to last, but in my opinion, bringing a burst version or Thief, Mesmer, even Warrior or Ele, are better and easier overall options, mostly due to the nature of how the burst is acheived.

I do like the blanketing of areas with grenades to prevent rezzing, however, which I’m starting to realize is a big strength of this build, but again, somewhat dependant that nobody is paying attention to you, or you are positioned just right a long distance away. There’s also some interesting things you can do on Khylo from the roof with this build.

Maybe I’m in the minority, but in my opinion, this is one of our worst viable build options and is arguably the worst “viable” burst build in the game.

To me, it only even seems like an option now based on some people’s use of it with high level gear in WvW, and in sPvP, it works sometimes because either the opponent has no clue an Engineer can do that much damage quickly and is caught off-guard, or you travel with 1 or more other players, and just aren’t getting focused at all by any enemy. Static Discharge is still a superior burst spec in that it’s a long range burst spec (which no other profession has) and the 100 nades burst requires you to run your flimsy build RIGHT into the hitbox of your opponent to “possibly” get your burst, depending on if you did one of several things just right and they did one of several things just wrong.

Overall, it plays like a Lamborghini with a Honda 4-wheeler engine.

Sylosi.6503:

The reason people complain about engi condition removal, is that unless you build for it quite heavily through traits and kit choices (which usually involves 15+ points in alchemy and a build that can make use of an elxir gun and/or elixirs), you often end up with virtually zero condition removal (just the 4 skill on medikit / the 60 sec cooldown on healing turret, plus sometimes the redundant removal on elxir R toss which 90% of the time is going to be used on the basis of the rez).

Take the current FOTM build 100nades, the only conditional removal is the 4 skill on the medi-kit, now what would you replace? You can’t remove the grenade kit, how about swapping the toolkit for the elxir gun, not really the toolkit fits a power build teh elixir gun doesn’t, the toolkit provides far more that fits in with the build such as the pull, the shield for defence, etc.

How about replacing elixir S for elxir R, well you get some condition removal, but most times the consideration will be rezzes not the rather redundant removal, you also gain a stunbreak, but then on the other hand you’ve lost an invurnrability, plus your super stomp, plus stealth / stability, either way the main consideration is weighing up the benefits of the rez

Now I don’t expect my engi to have the same easy access to condition removal as my necro, after all conditions are the necros thing, but as a an alleged all-round, versatile class that has apparently sacrificed damage and a weapon swap, I expect a better than average baseline condition removal compared to most classes, we don;t get that.

Take my thief, for a measely 10 pts in shadow arts, I remove a condition upon entering stealth, then every 3 secs in stealth, plus I have a heal that removes burning, bleeds & poision, this is far superior (even on a build with zero stealth utilites as you can get stealth through C&D, or through smoke field on pistol offhand) to anything I can get on engi for the same points, where even after spending more points I am forced into either using certain kits (elixir gun, flamethrower) or picking elxirs in as my utlity skills.

Engi needs a re-think, it is not versatile nor jack of all trades, quite the opposite, removing the weapon swap and then trying to make up for that by squashing everything in to the three utlity slots, simply does not work, especially when combined with the trait system, which is not good a design full stop, but is especially bad for certain classes like engi as it actually promotes specilization.

My next question is then, what currently popular builds in tPvP (non-bunker) have any natural condition removal that’s any better? It seems to me that every profession has to specifically decide to take along condition removal or not, this doesn’t seem at all an Engineer specific issue to me.

I see a lot of posts stating that we need to trait for Cleansing Formula 409 to have any chance of successfully removing conditions, so I thought I would post my own conditions build that also removes them at a constant rate without having to do so.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mcMz9VmlvLMmlGLMap0GfVVRmkm08kiI7khV7070c7kGW70V7ow18ofj

Feel free to choose other traits, these are just the ones I’m currently using, although Kit Refinement is mandatory.

I chose Runes for the Chill effect both for the actual effect, and because it stacks an additional condition, which can often mask our other conditions upon condition removal of just one or two.

Anyway, here’s the idea:

Traited, #5 EG move removes a condition every 16 seconds (traited).
With Kit Refinement, swap to EG removes a condition roughly every 20 seconds.
With Kit Refinement, swap to FT removes a condition roughly every 10 seconds.
Swap to medikit + #4 removes a condition, and you can place one or two on the ground before you fight for an additional condition removal as you walk over it.
Elixir R used before 25% life will remove conditions… it would sometimes be a waste, except when you trait for Inertial Converter in the Tools line, you get it back off of cooldown again when you go under 25% life.

All in all, you have consistent condition removal… 3-5 every 20 seconds on average, not including using Elixir R as a last ditch effort.

Meanwhile, you stack conditions pretty regularly and efficiently yourself, and it’s a pretty sturdy build against all but the burstiest specs.

This might very well be my next video, although it’s honestly just a variation of a pretty popular build we have, I just chose to go with EG and FT for the condition removal they give us with Kit Refinement.

Anyway, hope this helps some of you struggling with condition removal, if you’re used to kit swapping, it makes anything but the best Necros usually not much of an issue.