Guild Wars 2

Chaith.8256:

Ostricheggs.3742:

No. I’m not sure if anyone knows the build as well as me because I created it and played it for months before anyone started to run it. I theory craft and try new things constantly and understand what every permutation of HGH enables a player to do. I strive to make the best build humanly possible and understand every bit of the build from stat distribution to condition application and raw physical damage. If you think you know more about this build than me you’re insane. I’ve played almost 4.3k damges on my engi, a good 2k of which was with some version of HGH.

But AGAIN, I agree it’s overpowered, I’ve stated as much a billion kittening times and was the first to say it.

I feel like you need to be called out on a few things.

This dude didn’t even try and discredit you, and you readying an immense e-penor for battle.

While I have full faith that you do intimately know every condi-nade variant, your playstyle is something that develops independently. Not every variant is going to be optimal for your exact playstyle, or in every encounter.

You don’t need to present yourself like some kind of inhuman guru that has exclusive understanding on the depth of these builds. Hell, I, like other Engineers I’m sure, have the mental capacity to ‘c wat u did thar’ and conclude most of the same findings that you did with regards to what builds are hot right now. I know you’re proud of the sigil of battle you slapped on a common condi-nade build, but please don’t act like it means that you invented the MMO genre. Stahp.

While you’ve been near strictly throwing nades since launch, and you have the most games played NA, this means you stomp the sheit out of most people. Does this mean that since you’ve had great success, you’re forgetting to admit your complete bias when you’re screaming “ENGIES ARE DISGUSTINGLY OVERPOWERED” on repeat? Absolutely.

In February, your main build was an HGH Power nade build. Condi-nade build something you ran 25% of the time. You’ve said on forums many times that condi-nade builds were simply not optimal in large teamfights, about 20,000 times, due to excessive condition clearing from the ranger/ele meta.

In March, last month, your main build switched to Condi-nades. This is where, according to your forum history, you start screaming that it’s overpowered. Repeatedly. Like every post since then.

What’s up with you, dude? I feel like you’re going a little off the deep end. I feel in terms of balance, a top Engineer on your team is not going to swing odds in your favor more than a top Elementalist or Guardian. Engineers can duel the pants off most classes, but you still lose if you get outplayed. A few might stacks above average, IMO.

Don’t get me wrong, I respect the hundreds of hours & thousands of games you have logged on Engineer. Just getting a little tired of your slanted preaching, heh.

Pretty much this, exactly.

Still waiting for OP video coverage of this. People are filing in behind the top 3% Engineer players but I’ve yet to see it personally in any tPvP match, nor have I seen anything evident of how OP this build is in current streams even from Ostrich.

It’s never been this hard to dig up or find evidence or videos for anything considered OP before. So far the best evidence of this is OE’s statement that “it kittens up everything with zero remorse”.

Scientific.

Don’t mean to come across as crass even though I usually do, and I realize I’m talking to people who play better than I do, but please consider that we’re talking in terms of the highest % playerbase supposedly tapping into the kung-foo of this build… yet magically, no hard evidence exists to support how crazy good this build is at everything, including being touted as the best 1v1 build in the game, with negligible CC and basically one definitive escape mechanism for a few seconds.

All I’m asking is that someone please show something tangible to support this, and thusfar, I’ve yet to see it, and most people are simply rallying behind a choice couple of talisman top-tier Engineers just because they said so, IMO.

Ostricheggs.3742:

Baldric.6781:

It doesn’t matter if it requires more or less skill, it’s probably overpowered because it gives you too much (condi cleansing, condi burst, might stacking, range aoe, boons, with some luck protection, and decent armor). Sure you don’t have tanking, good mobility or more than one stun-breaker, but as a roamer, the build is too good.
They should probably nerf it, and when they do it I don’t know what build i will play in spvp, the others that i tried seem to be way worst.

This. This exactly.

The build is so kittening balanced and an exceptionally good player with a good team can make up for its faults and exacerbate its strengths.

It’s so kitten balanced that it’s OP? Isn’t that… like… completely contradictory?

Spiuk.8421:

lol massive damage

Sure it is.

It’s pretty considerable. You don’t have to come any closer than 1200 range to apply it. Not our best roaming DPS build, but arguably our 2nd best at the moment (and now our only real burst build), and still viable, just not at the very tip-top tier. Recent changes to turrets makes rifle turret even more useful if you are proactive in your thinking rather than reactive.

Thanks. Do we know if this is considered a bug or working as intended?

NickDollahZ.5348:

Not a big fan of HGH builds. The way it stacks Might, forces me to blow all my utility skills. It gives a lot of burst at the beginning of the fight. Although you have to reuse all your utility skills to maintain might stacks. This takes too much time in a fight and really cuts down on your dps as you cant attack while buffing unless you use the laughable Acidic Elixirs.

I moved on from HGH build long ago. So they can nerf it to the ground for all I care, but honestly other classes and builds do it better.

If you have an Engineer raining down grenades on a group fight and nobody spots him and stops him, right now, no other profession provides that kind of sweeping AoE damage by a long shot.

My point of contention is with those who say this build is amazing 1v1. I guess I haven’t seen top tier 1v1 fighting, but last I checked CC and damage mitigation wins in most 1v1s, and the HGH build has almost zero of any of those things. To me, it’s the pinnacle of the ‘sidekick’ build, in that you always run with another or a group, and they peel opponents off of you and do the CC for you while you rain terror.

But anyway, yeah… HGH nades I think is the strongest AoE damage build in the game, especially when you consider how far away from the fight the Engie can be to do said damage.

So just to be different I’ve been running an SD build again, and they pretty much require tons of dodges to be effective in any fight longer than a few seconds, so I’m considering my options…

Does anyone know if Adrenal Implant stacks with Invigorating Speed? Maybe this is a bug already posted somewhere but I swear, all my tests on endurance recharge time shows that there is no difference when you pop Invigorating Speed vs. Invigorating Speed + Adrenal Implant. Can anyone confirm?

Okay, I’ll ask for it. Can someone please show how this CCless build could possibly dominate any decent 1v1/duel scenario? Any videos or anything to go off of? It contradicts everything I’ve learned since BETA for what wins 1v1 and it’s driving me crazy that a player with Ostrich’s re kitten aying it’s the best 1v1 build in the game amongst all professions.

I like 8v8 the way I like to watch 8v8 basketball.

Biggest. Clusterfug. Ever. AND teaches bad game strategy, really no redeeming feature about it except that it’s easier to farm glory.

Kimbald.2697:

aydenunited.5729:

Ostricheggs.3742:

aydenunited.5729:

It’s not OP on a 1v1 basis, per se.

It’s OP when you consider that the entire endgame of tPvP is point control, and HGH engineers brutalize AoE in a team fight… that ultimately means no rez, no point control, and unless you focus the Engie first (which no one is accustomed to doing yet) they are going to literally rain a bad day upon you.

Welcome to the problem with conquest as the only game type. You have to unbalance the professions to balance the game mode. Such a waste of a great game engine IMO.

I disagree so much that it’s ridiculous. Our AoE is huge, but it’s far far less than a power nade engi.

The reason why it is OP is that it has incredible damage in both 1v1s and team fights. It is an unstoppable killing machine when played to its potential, something that no one has ever achieved (even me, and I like to thing I “made” the build).

It’s a kittening ridiculous spec and probably the best in the game atm. It kittens on everything with zero remorse. Point control and AoE is hardly our boons. I can’t hold a point for the life of me. AoE kings go to power nade engis, warriors and thieves with cluster bomb.

I’ve read enough in this post to see your credibility should be seriously questioned.

His gaming history and reputation speak against your opinion I’m afraid.
Not to mention he’s actually listed pretty high.
He’s pretty darn good at what he does… he really is.

I can’t make that specc work for me to be so devastating, but I will take Ostricheggs word for it on this one.

If anyone’s credibility should be questioned from this post… it isn’t his.

by the way: not saying you are bad of course Ayden, I couldn’t know. But I am saying Ostrecheggs is much better than what you give him credit for.
Not a fanboy or anything, but you can simply check him out yourself and see. Most engineers consider him as one of the better pvp engineers.
That doesn’t make all his posts correct, but the way you sneer at him is a bit low. He was discussing pvp mechanics after all, and builds. And those I reckon he knows.

How in the world are you getting ‘sneers’ and ‘better than I give him credit for’ out of that one sentence I responded with? I actually agreed with him that it’s one of if not the strongest tPVP spec, but he disagreed with my version of the why.

He said he likes to think he invented the build itself (it’s been around for months), and that it’s the strongest 1v1 build in the game (with zero CC or defensive heals? what happens if there’s a boon strip?) . Anyone good enough to pull that off with an HGH Engie can most likely do the exact same thing with most other professions.

So yeah, I don’t think it’s ‘sneering’ to question credibility of the person making those comments, but a lot of times people look the other way just because it’s a fantastic player saying them. It has nothing to do with his accomplishments, ability, sneering or looking down upon anyone, it’s just calling question to something that, had anyone else said it, this entire forum (including you most likely) would have ripped them apart.

Great players can be wrong. Mediocre players can be right. Questioning them does not mean you’re denying their talent nor does it mean you’re insulting them.

But I’ll leave it at that. Agree to disagree.

Ostricheggs.3742:

aydenunited.5729:

It’s not OP on a 1v1 basis, per se.

It’s OP when you consider that the entire endgame of tPvP is point control, and HGH engineers brutalize AoE in a team fight… that ultimately means no rez, no point control, and unless you focus the Engie first (which no one is accustomed to doing yet) they are going to literally rain a bad day upon you.

Welcome to the problem with conquest as the only game type. You have to unbalance the professions to balance the game mode. Such a waste of a great game engine IMO.

I disagree so much that it’s ridiculous. Our AoE is huge, but it’s far far less than a power nade engi.

The reason why it is OP is that it has incredible damage in both 1v1s and team fights. It is an unstoppable killing machine when played to its potential, something that no one has ever achieved (even me, and I like to thing I “made” the build).

It’s a kittening ridiculous spec and probably the best in the game atm. It kittens on everything with zero remorse. Point control and AoE is hardly our boons. I can’t hold a point for the life of me. AoE kings go to power nade engis, warriors and thieves with cluster bomb.

I’ve read enough in this post to see your credibility should be seriously questioned.

It’s not OP on a 1v1 basis, per se.

It’s OP when you consider that the entire endgame of tPvP is point control, and HGH engineers brutalize AoE in a team fight… that ultimately means no rez, no point control, and unless you focus the Engie first (which no one is accustomed to doing yet) they are going to literally rain a bad day upon you.

Welcome to the problem with conquest as the only game type. You have to unbalance the professions to balance the game mode. Such a waste of a great game engine IMO.

I don’t think they’ll nerf the build specifically, but they will more than likely nerf AoE damage in general at some point which will in turn water it down some.

That, and I expect at some point they will redo a few of the runes so that you can’t stack the extra might duration… I feel like this was something that was unintentional on their end, and most likely at least one of the standard 3 might duration sets will get a different 2nd rune ability.

Deified.7520:

I tested it, and it didn’t work. It’s is rather interesting because while we were testing a few weird things happened. One of them was that they tried doing the updraft knockback on me and it…didn’t do anything. I didnt move haha. I have no idea why that previous ele was pushed backed, rather interesting.

I can confirm that I’ve seen the “RTL reflect” on at least one or two occasions and I’ve wondered about this, but haven’t been able to repeat it.

stof.9341:

aydenunited.5729:

It’s been my opinion, ever since launch, that retaliation is really only an issue for burst builds, and that’s still my opinion. I’ve never had a problem with it unless I ran burst.

My Mug/C&D/Backstab thief laughs about your puny retaliation. Retaliation punishes multihit attacks, not burst.

Exactly… so if it doesn’t affect burst that isn’t multi-hit, and it doesn’t affect bunkers, and it doesn’t affect any reasonable balanced build, and it doesn’t happen anywhere near as fact as any other reaction time move in the game (stopping your attack when enemy reflects, dodging said burst, etc.) then how can this really be that much of an issue?

I agree it tends to be a lazy game mechanic, but it’s not hard to avoid at all, it only punishes people who spam attacks and don’t watch their conditions/boons, and even then, it typically only punishes terribly flimsy builds.

NevirSayDie.6235:

It is possible to dodge a bounce, but I agree that it is harder to dodge (thus better from the engineer’s perspective). Also, I’m slowly getting better at fighting rangers and finding that killing the pet is often a great option for condi engineers. Not only do they lose the damage from the pets, they lose almost all of their cc and empathic bond. So if I can LoS the ranger and land a long burn and confuse on their dog, I do so. It’s not always best to kill the pets, of course, but if you’re in a situation where you can the rest of the fight is easy.

I swear to god when I read your posts I could swear that I wrote them. We must have almost identical playing styles.

It’s been my opinion, ever since launch, that retaliation is really only an issue for burst builds, and that’s still my opinion. I’ve never had a problem with it unless I ran burst.

Have moves highlighted for “in range” rather than the red bar.

Have individual sliders for each seperate UI for size rather than an overall UI customizer.

Show cast bars option.

I think for me that would pretty much cover it all.

Grackleflint.4956:

Pistol users: When being attacked by a Ranger, target their pet with Static Shot as your opener. The pet’s charge/pounce will miss and the Ranger will be hit by all bounces and unable to evade by dodge rolling.

I do this by mistake all the time.

Phineas Poe.3018:

aydenunited.5729:

Because it leaves my slot open in that trait line for Swift on crit to match my Vigor on Swift trait in Alchemy.

And I run a pretty tough build, that 200 Toughness doesn’t matter when I ony use FT to swap, do a move or to, then swap back.

Infused Precision + Invigorating Speed is a good combo, agreed.

Not sure how running Juggernaut affects that, though?

Something I’m finding, even in my apparent “pistol kite build”, is that Juggernaut bridges my Elixir downtime when I’m moving between points. That might be enough to bait me to swap that for a few less dodges, I just have to adjust my rotations to opening with FT and swapping to P/P rather than the other way around, which is me typically opening up with my pistols.

So maybe I’m changing my mind. Time will tell. Either way, this dialogue opening up about FT is good, far too many people marginalize it as useless, and you’ll notice there aren’t many naysayers in this topic, most people are posting good constructive info on the kit and different ways to use it.

Shiloh.4093:

Hey, its the flamethrower-instead-of-nades sPVP build that was poo pooed just days ago. Now, not so much.

I’m of the mind that if you’re running 25 stacks of might constantly, you’re not making the best use of this build. You get 10/11 stacks with FT plus 3 for B, plus 3 more @ 75% which is more than likely to happen in a given fight. Swap out is another 3 stacks. So 20 stacks with the lowest duration at 28.5 seconds (15 secs * 1.9). Of course you still have to consider healing, S, thrown elixirs, more swaps (6 second cooldown) and other peoples’ buffs, but you see where I’m going here.

I tend to use undead runes instead of fire/strength/hoelbrak because I like the flatter condition damage curve and higher beginning point. I also think the geomancy weapon rune is a viable option instead of strength on your pistol because we go wanting for bleeds generally, and geomancy gives us 3 stacks for 7 seconds at least on a weapon swap. (incidently, it also has a direct damage component to boot!)

And yes, for Spvp, I think incendiary powder is a must for this build. I say that because 13 seconds of speed from elixir B should get you to where you need to be quick enough. Also, your flamethrower does a great job of proccing it in close quarters. FT 1 with full burst followed by FT 3 should net you at least 5 ticks of burning. And its tough to cleanse since for half of the while, your opponent is in knockback/recover mode.

Good times!

I tend to agree with you here. Right now our FT builds seem to be choosing between a snowball effect of might stacking and constantly getting stronger throughout the fight, or something in the middle where you are delivering a steady amount of CC and fluctuating those numbers based on a few well timed applications of might.

I’m testing both, still not sure which I prefer. In a team fight the might stacking seems much better because I’m not always focused.

Dimes.7281:

aydenunited.5729:

Dimes.7281:

If you use pistols more than the FT then your Swiftness/Invigor combo is great for a kiting spec, but if FT is your primary weapon like you made it seem in this thread then the Swiftness/Invigor combo is less relevant because the FT shines in close quarter AOE situations. The FT is not designed for you to be popping off shots and rolling around all over the place, because your primary source of damage (Flame Jet) is a 2.25 second channeled ability that does most of it’s damage on the back end of the channel, and your incendiary round and smoke vent can be used while you’re channeling Flame Jet. If you’re going to be rolling around mid channel, you will be wasting a lot of FT damage.

FT is a powerhouse spec, not a finesse spec like the Pistols. You can get 15% increased damage to FT in Alchemy, 10% increased damage against all burning targets, 5% increased damage against bleeding targets, 1% extra damage for every boon on you, and you can stack vulnerability on foes which further increases your damage by a percentage based on how many stacks of Vulnerability you get on them. Having high crit works really well with the FT because it hits many targets and attacks very fast, so therefore it has a good chance of stacking a lot of bleeds, burns, and vulnerability effects on several targets at once. That doesn’t even begin to include all the stacks of might you will have with Juggernaut + HGH combo and whatever runes you choose to use.

I hardly ever use FT #1 or FT #2, but I use 3, 4, and 5 a LOT, and I time incendiary ammo with my biggest swell of DPS once I get the might stacks up and when I know they are about to try and heal. So in that respect, I feel I do use FT a lot, I just don’t look at it as a damage kit for my current build.

Right, you’re using the FT’s defensive abilities to supplement your Pistol kite build, but a true FT build means your primary source of damage would be from the FT.

Semantics.

Dimes.7281:

If you use pistols more than the FT then your Swiftness/Invigor combo is great for a kiting spec, but if FT is your primary weapon like you made it seem in this thread then the Swiftness/Invigor combo is less relevant because the FT shines in close quarter AOE situations. The FT is not designed for you to be popping off shots and rolling around all over the place, because your primary source of damage (Flame Jet) is a 2.25 second channeled ability that does most of it’s damage on the back end of the channel, and your incendiary round and smoke vent can be used while you’re channeling Flame Jet. If you’re going to be rolling around mid channel, you will be wasting a lot of FT damage.

FT is a powerhouse spec, not a finesse spec like the Pistols. You can get 15% increased damage to FT in Alchemy, 10% increased damage against all burning targets, 5% increased damage against bleeding targets, 1% extra damage for every boon on you, and you can stack vulnerability on foes which further increases your damage by a percentage based on how many stacks of Vulnerability you get on them. Having high crit works really well with the FT because it hits many targets and attacks very fast, so therefore it has a good chance of stacking a lot of bleeds, burns, and vulnerability effects on several targets at once. That doesn’t even begin to include all the stacks of might you will have with Juggernaut + HGH combo and whatever runes you choose to use.

I hardly ever use FT #1 or FT #2, but I use 3, 4, and 5 a LOT, and I time incendiary ammo with my biggest swell of DPS once I get the might stacks up and when I know they are about to try and heal. So in that respect, I feel I do use FT a lot, I just don’t look at it as a damage kit for my current build.

Phineas Poe.3018:

aydenunited.5729:

Because it leaves my slot open in that trait line for Swift on crit to match my Vigor on Swift trait in Alchemy.

And I run a pretty tough build, that 200 Toughness doesn’t matter when I ony use FT to swap, do a move or to, then swap back.

Infused Precision + Invigorating Speed is a good combo, agreed.

Not sure how running Juggernaut affects that, though?

Because my other two traits in the Firearms line give 20% CD reduction in Pistol (my main weapon) and 20% reduction in FT (for 12 second AoE knockback and I use Napalm a lot for a fire field).

Anyway, I guess I’m beginning to answer my own question, I guess it all comes down to style of play. I prefer to be a duelist and solo node taker over group play… I don’t want to focus on keeping stacks of might up for too long, but I do like the way HGH synergizes over a longer fight, every elixir pop making my conditions grow stronger and stronger and applying more pressure, but I dislike might as the ‘focus’ of a FT build.

Phineas Poe.3018:

aydenunited.5729:

Another question for you conditions/might/FT guys…

My current build uses HGH, because I don’t like Juggernaut… now I typically get around 10 stacks of might that I maintain during the fight, and 1v1 I don’t have a problem with any other profession, and in tPvP, I still seem to do pretty well, especially taking their bunker off their home point solo.

Why are FT people trying to stack so high? It seems enough just to get some incidental stacks from procs on Sigils and using elixirs you would use anyway. I get why we do in the GK, but FT it doesn’t seem as necessary.

Well Juggernaut doesn’t just stack Might. It also gives 200 Toughness.

As for why stack Might—why not?

Because it leaves my slot open in that trait line for Swift on crit to match my Vigor on Swift trait in Alchemy.

And I run a pretty tough build, that 200 Toughness doesn’t matter when I ony use FT to swap, do a move or to, then swap back.

Another question for you conditions/might/FT guys…

My current build uses HGH, because I don’t like Juggernaut… now I typically get around 10 stacks of might that I maintain during the fight, and 1v1 I don’t have a problem with any other profession, and in tPvP, I still seem to do pretty well, especially taking their bunker off their home point solo.

Why are FT people trying to stack so high? It seems enough just to get some incidental stacks from procs on Sigils and using elixirs you would use anyway. I get why we do in the GK, but FT it doesn’t seem as necessary.

That’s about as might-stacky as you can get for a FT build, so if that’s your aim, it’s good. A few things to consider:

1) Only one more step into the Tools tree gives you back your toolbelt moves at 25%… not as big of a deal with your elixer set up but if you ever swap Elixir S for Elixir R, warrants consideration. I’ve double rezzed in my tPvP fights his way to take out defenders.

2) 10 points in Explosives for the 33% burn to add to the burns you’ll already be providing with FT kit.

3) This build really works better with Grenade Kit. While FT benefits from might, the results on a damage base dont match with GK, and so typically, FT builds work better with some ways to stack might intertwined, but not as the focus of the build (not for sPvP anway).

4) Juggernaut doesn’t always benefit you, since it’s usually a bad idea to stay in FT kit for too long, and you’re already stacking lots of might with everything else. You will honestly spend more of your time out of that kit relying on your pistols, this for me is the main weak point of the build. It does help you get a quick 6 stack headstart on your way to the node I suppose.

5) Not sure it’s necessary to use only might duration runes. Haven’t tested that one enough to say but it seems like a bad idea with FT compared to GK.

Other than that overtly critical assessment, yes, that’s the basic FT might stack build.

SilverWF.4789:

Phineas Poe.3018:

SilverWF.4789:

After Omnomberry nerf FT becomes not only useless but suicidal at the WvW – coz Retaliation.

I never understood the “Uh-oh Retaliation” rebuttal to the Flamethrower. The Grenade Kit and Coated Bullets are just as affected by it, if not more so. As of right now there’s a thread not even half-way down the page complaining about Retaliation when using the Grenade Kit.

Flame Jet can be controlled and the casting channel can be canceled at any time. If you’re traited for Coated Bullets, your shots will go right through the crowd for 900 range. If you hit 3 people with it, whatever. But I’ve had it hit a lot more than that and have Retaliation hurt me just as badly as it does with the Flamethrower. The same with the Grenade Kit—especially Poison Grenade which lingers on the ground as a Combo field. If Retaliation starts chewing me up, I’ll just cancel Flame Jet at any time. It is not a big deal. I back off, heal myself, whatever.

And spare me the “BUT TIER 1 LOL” nonsense because I play on Sanctum of Rall.

Retaliation doesn’t just affect the Flamethrower. It affects all AoE builds—for all classes, and not just the Engineer. That is the risk vs. reward of these types of builds. Play it wrong and you’ll die every bus vs. bus fight; play it right and you’ll get badges like candy.

Man, I dont wanna make my calculations specially for you and specially for you once more time.
FT most weak in front of the face of Retaliation. Nades – lesser.
There is no needs to say where are you are playing at – your WvW experience very poor, this is obvious.
Why I’m not talking about nades? It’s easy – I didn’t care about that kit. Yes, it affected by Retaliation too. That’s why “so many” FT and nades Engineers at the WvW. This is sarcasm. I’m talking about massive fights here, so put down your useless speech about solo gankin.
All classes affected by Retaliation at the same level as Engis? Yes? Thanks for explaining of your game experience – zero experience.
If NOT – why you even post this? Argue for the argue – is it your forum way? very weak way, if honestly.

Massive fights = doesn’t really matter what you run. I don’t know how to tell you this, but, if you’re one person of 50 in WvW, you don’t matter. Your profession, your skill level, your build, none of that matters, ultimately.

This isn’t the movies, nobody is Rambo, and if you’re in the middle of a 50 man zone spamming moves and you’re eating retaliation… how about STOP what you’re doing and think a little.

It’s not really that hard except for people who don’t pay attention to the big red circle of health in the middle of their screen.

Sure, why not.

winterlove.6834:

was the 100nades build recently nurfed

They decided to pass go and go straight to completely erasing the build altogether. Enjoy your new shiney mine you lay down using KR.

Love,
A-net

Incidentally, I will pipe in my 2 cents again to play devil’s advocate against myself… somewhat.

Juggernaut is not a good take at the moment, because seeing as how FT kit IS a utility kit at the moment (sans future buffs) it needs to be viewed as one, which means it’s primary point is to add burn attacks to your pistol attacks via Incendiary Ammo and Napalm, and of course the un-stun-able blind.

So, to stack might in Juggernaut is counter intuative to a good burn build. I know it doesn’t make sense, but I’m promising you, the minute you just exploit FT kit for the burns and focus on your pistols and dodges, you’ll burn down enemies must quicker. I only use the #1 and #2 skills when the opponent is about to die and I know swapping weapons handicaps me by a second or two, or I know my pistol moves aren’t off CD yet. Any pistol build should be looking to close-range Blowtorch at every chance they get, waiting to make sure the opponent has dodged recently once or twice.

If you do take FT, I’m not sold that using HGH is the best method to apply conditions, especially if you’re including Juggernaut as a main idea behind the build.

Sporadicus.1028:

Very good announcement, Ayden.

If someone doesn’t think the FT is viable, then shouldn’t they also list how they think it should be viable? I don’t think the OP is looking for just a yes/no answer to this topic.

He (and to a higher extent the forum moderators) are the one who makes end judgement. Until then . . . add comments that apply to the topic and not less-than-witty criticism of others.

Fair enough. I just usually try to stay within the realm of arguing “why ‘x’ is or isn’t working” when rather than “this should have ‘x’ ability” because you start to get into conjecture then, and topics can often derail.

Sporadicus.1028:

I do have to agree with Zinwrath on what he said here:

“To further back this, the juggernaut trait rewards you for keeping the FT out instead of quickly using an ability and stowing it away. So, since it is supposed to be more of a weapon alternative, it is perfectly reasonable to compare its balance and design to a weapon.”

With this trait, you are rewarded for staying in the FT kit. If you are rewarded so, shouldn’t you be able to make it a stand-alone kit?

My idea is that the Juggernaut trait should have an increase in Toughness by at least double its normal trait amount.

Also, Fireforged Trigger and Volatile Mixture shouldn’t be spread between two kits. Here’s my idea.

Fireforged Trigger should give a 20% CD reduction to FT skills while also giving a 15% bonus to FT damage (and possible burning conditions).

Volatile Mixture should give a 20% CD reduction to EG skills while also giving a 10% bonus to EG damage (and possible bleed and poison condition damage).

The OP’s topic has basically turned from “Can FT be viable post-patch” to “does the FT kit do what I think it should do?”.

Thank you, Phineas Poe for bringing a little sanity to the forums.

Yes, it’s viable. It’s BEEN viable for sPvP, just not as a stand-alone damage source.

Viable – 1) able to live on it’s own 2) able to be done; possible

Yes, it’s odd that FT kit isn’t a DPS kit with it’s main 2 attacks… I hardly ever use them, nor do I stay in the kit long, like you said… how that has a thing to do with if it’s good or not is beyond me, because the ammount of extra burn you can get from pistols from incendiary ammo + laying down a fire wall and firing through it is impressive, and I can’t understate the power of a (traited) AoE knockback on a 12 second CD. That is MASSIVE.

FT gets buffed because damage is bad, and it’s a CC kit. What in the world does the damage of #1 and #2 have to do with if the kit is good or not? If #5 was a stunbreak okittensecond CD, the rest of the kit could be dance animations and I would still take it along, the argument that damage = better is a PvE argument, not an sPvP or tPvP argument.

And it’s never a good idea to base what you play around the top 5% alone, especially if you’re not a top 5% quality player. Oh, and Teldo used to carry a FT, back when it was worse, grenades did even more damage than now, and other professions were better. I fail to see the point, pointing out the “these guys only use this so everything else must suck” argument.

It’s through challenging the status quo that the playerbase discovered the 100nades build that became a good tPvP build as well. And it’s through challenging all the people on the boards saying “that sucks, no point” especially when they are misinformed and dissecting semantics over play testing and brainstorming that you come to realize builds and sets you thought were awful sometimes synergize really well with something, at least depending on what your team needs.

Your team is weak on condition damage and no way to apply any burn effects… would you really still not even consider a FT kit just because you see Five Guage using HGH power nades? That’s a very narrow approach to the game IMO.

There’s a reason why these builds show up between patches, and not on patch day. Things develop and people stop being so hard-headed and learn something new.

Incidentally we do still have a pretty good conditions spec that isn’t HGH nades. Just mentioning that because all the talk is strictly SD or HGH cond/power nades. Our straight P/P or P/S and FT conditions build is still pretty good, you just may have to make adjustments such as taking the heal turret for condition removal to make up for the KR nerf.

hharry.1967:

Even with all the bugs, the fail balance between classes, the hell lot of missing features, the lack of new pvp modes, the lack of incentive to be at the top, the lack of class diversity, this game is awesome, and no im not being sarcastic. Just played some WoW arenas with a friend to remember good old times, god that game is awful how did we even play that? Ended up stressed and having no fun at all. At least there’s still fun in this game with all the above mentioned, which is what matters!

That notion is, at the same time, what is so great, AND what is so disappointing at the same time.

The only problem with Mesmers for me is the friggin’ camera in tight spots. When I can’t see enough of the playing field to know when I’m about to get rush shattered, it’s kind of hard to counter.

Elementalists though, are the OP profession in the game for one reason alone at the core… they can self heal, a lot, easily, and pretty regularly. A fight with a good Ele becomes an issue of time… in 1v1, yeah, they are beatable, just like the bunker Rangers are, but you have to dance around, time out your CC, hit them at the right time.

In tPvP against a good team you typically have roughly 20 seconds to get the job done 1v1 and then it’s outnumber/lightsout/conquestftwbabby. So an Ele, who can easily make the fight last much longer than that suddenly becomes an apex predator when they can also put out a decent amount of sustained damage in the meantime and make sure you are nice and tenderized for your zerg butchering experience.

Oh, and also, Ride the Lightning for movement. That one is a glaring miss by Anet for several patches now.

Main thing is, KR was an actual offensive trait before, and a centerpiece of several builds… kind of like some builds on some professions revolve around that special burst, or elite timing, KR was ours for a lot of Engineers.

Now, they are all not only changed from directly offensive/counter moves (like condition removal on swap to EG or FT) but strictly defensive moves (like Fire Aura shield on FT) and on a 20 second CD which, unless you are a God at counting your internal 20 second clock (since the game offers ZERO user interface to help manage this), makes it basically another RNG.

The best way I can explain this to the people that don’t understand, is that KR before was build defining, and now, it’s an afterthought. No other profession has had to deal with this sort of change thusfar…. it was almost as significant as a complete removal of a weapon set for any other profession, due to the importance in it’s use swapping between sets. The global CD was the jab, this patch was the haymaker.

And it would all make sense if people had been complaining about Engineers being OP since BETA like, say… every other profession except Necros. Necros and Engies get the least amount of PvP hate, and often the most amount of PvP nerf, and it’s a really odd pattern.

What it probably is, realistically, is Anet finally polishing their view and design on a profession that wasn’t ready at launch. What it feels like the PvP community, is more like a constant kick in the sack.

Amadeus.5687:

But while I do agree we need more builds, and we need more fix and balance stuff! I simply don’t agree that there is only those two viable builds! :/ Again I play about 10 different builds in WvW now, serveral different purposes (but most are for roaming), and none of them is the two builds she post about! I even bother spending time making video’s to show just a jist of them! we got tons of different playstyle’s at our reach (some stronger then others)

I have used my builds vs some of the best WvW players, D/D elementalists like Intigo from Red Guard, pure HGH build like Maskaganda or take the creator of Shattercats builds for mesmers, Osicat, and they stand there ground against those builds! I can at least document my testing and results, and I won’t just base my opinion on something I haven’t tested out prober!

Also, the two reaons I disagree with the way she did it is:
1. She haven’t been able, no matter how you turn and twist it, to test and gather the nessacry data to judge Turrets builds in alle aspects of the game, nor which other builds that’s viable for that matter after the patch
2. When she final talk a tiny bit builds, she choice to be sarcastic apperantly (was lost on me), in combo with the above problem, and end up making herself sound like she have no idea what’s she’s doing! It’s simply hard to take anything serious then!

And I actually think that the Rifle Turret is about perfect on the damage load out now, at least in a 1vs1, when you overcharge it mine in WvW is every second hitting four roughly 650 damage, over 7seconds that’s a quite decent damage + Bleeding! At first I hated it vs Mesmers cause of clones ect, but I have begun to love how it will eat them away while I can focus on other stuff!

I don’t claim all Turrets, or all aspects of Turrets are fine, but more and more is starting to work for them, but personal it’s way to early after the patch for me to give a prober judgement on how good they are! To many changes (for us and everyone else), and to little time!

Anyway, it’s a discussion I will never win, so I won’t bother anymore, I need to get some sleep! and my offer still stands for duels if you want them!

Hit me up sometime, I would like that as well. I’m not convinved turrets are still so bad… 15% damage increase from toughness line + toolbelt and turret buffs + the ability to build tanky without fear of losing turret damage seems like it hasn’t been explored enough to me since the patch and I would like to see how my Engie builds stack up against.

To name a few:

1) Complete removal of 2 extra condition removals every 10-20 seconds.
2) Complete removal of the biggest burst build Engineers have had since launch
3) Complete removal of 20+ seconds of condition burn applied in quick 1-2 succession (less than a second in application)

Just three of probably dozens of variants.

Mind you, these were not ‘nerfs’ but ERASED. Gone. Does not exist anymore.

That tends to offend people a bit more than just a nerf of their build, they are now unplayable. I spend a few hours making 2 videos showcasing the power of KR builds and now they are completely obsolete.

Not nerfed. ERASED. I can’t overstate that. Does not exist, versus weaker than before.

Granted, I adjust and move on, and I’m not complaining, but I can DEFINATELY see why the Engineer community as a whole has had enough.

Add that to the fact that as a profession we’ve never been out of the bottom to mid tier in the general perception of professions in WvW, PvE, OR PvP, and it makes even less sense. Even Warriors, who are arguably the worst sPvP profession at the moment, still have relative top tier status in PvE.

That is where the angst comes from from what I’m reading and from what I’ve seen.

CriSPeH.8512:

@Amadeus

I don’t think you know what you are talking about.
You want to basically call someone a liar and excuse them of writing completely false information and all you back it up with is your opinion.
(BTW since SD works differently with skills that are targetted or not targetted the SD produced from Detonating Turrets will go straight into the ground more often than hitting the enemy)

We are 7months into the game I think all the testing tht can be done with Turrets has already been done to the point that if the only fix is messing around with stats and CD it wont take long to further test their general uselessness.

You are also defending Turrets by pointing out the gimmick way they can be used, which is deploy and instadetonate, that is the same type of gimmick as the Barrage Burst. So even if someone manages to create a build focused aroung quick detonation, history shows that it wouldnt be long before that got changed.
Every attack skill we have could potentially add DPS so trying to say how usefull it is to deploy a Turret is nonsense, the same could be said for any other skill. In the context of a SD build the Rifle Turret has always been more useful for it TB skill, of course plopping it down will add some damage but thats only if it aims at the target you want or if the enemy is right on top of it so you can get a detonate.

Which is the other point you bring up that I don’t understand, why would anyone focus on Turrets just to Detonate them, Do you really believe that is a viable build?
That IS what this topic is about, the lack of viable builds for the Engineer because we don’t have a focus for our profession. Like the OP believes Anet lacks a solid vision of what they want to the Engineer to be and our skills and traits are so over the place that players have come up with all kinds of “uses” for what we have. Equipping Turrets just to rapid detonate them can be a nice gimmick but will leave you without stunbreakers, damage mitigation or active defense and completely relies on the enemy not figuring out that you are trying to play like a wannabe shatter mesmer, so have fun laying down turrets only to get 10 stacks of confusion slapped on then you are stuck with turrets that will kill you if you detonate or overcharge them.

I didn’t want to respond to your thread since you are a troll.
You are a troll because instead of just stating you don’t agree with someone you start your response off with claiming most the stuff the OP posts is wrong.
You claim how you have 100% the right to analyze ppl playstyles when you yourself state you only use Turrets in sPvP, IMO sPvP is the stupidest part of GW2 so your opinion means nothing and I have 100% the right to say so.
The worst part is you took a quote that was cleary made in a sarcastic tone and used that to attempt to make yourself look smart and the OP stupid( which is the exact word you used)
So you are really a self righteous troll who claims to have a magical insight into the true intention of how the profession is supposed to work and everyone else who claims or points out flaws are just players who arent as good as you or havent figured out your superior style of Turret playing.

Guess what you don’t have any! bring Turrets to fight me and after taking the 2 secs to burn them down I will destroy you.

I get what you’re saying here, but be careful. Just because turrets are a joke in tPvP and WvW and PvE doesn’t mean a guy can’t build a 1v1 build around them. Turrets don’t scale down no matter how tanky you build and can be a very difficult challenge to overcome if he’s CCing you the entire time you’re trying to focus a turret (assuming they are spread apart enough).

Turrets are not inherently bad, they just don’t fit into any current game modes very well due to their unreasonably long CDs.

Now, the SD build he’s referring to, is a terrible 1v1 build whether you use turrets or not.

As disappointed as I was finding that all of my KR builds suddenly were not only nerfed but useless, I think they actually made a more clear statement on what they want us to be this patch: Condition Damage, with area control thrown in since we can’t match a Necro.

The nerfs to other professions actually raised us up a bit despite how they butchered KR, and now I’m playing my conditions builds and doing better, because Thieves are less of an issue, and Rangers can’t insta-spike anymore… seems like things have evened out a bit.

Anyway, so far it seems like we have 3 viable tPvP builds… SD burst, HGH, and actually, the old tried and true conditions builds work pretty well also, especially since the nerf to haste.

This is only a day or so into playing around the new patch so this could change as I play more.

Making PvP skins available to wear in PvE would be a good start that wouldn’t affect (the very good policy) of no gear progression in PvP.

Davinci.8027:

Meow meow meow meow MEOW

MEOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Go home, Davinci, you’re drunk.

Davinci.8027:

Braxxus.2904:

Razor.6392:

Braxxus.2904:

The OP’s attitude and post/ideology is exactly what kills pvp populations.
The trickle down theory does not work.
You need to serve the middle class, not the 1%.

wrong. no game does the balancing like that.

You’re right and look at all the highly successful PvP MMO’s out there with thriving communities….

owait

I’m pretty sure WoW still has millions of people who play the PvP… and it isn’t at its prime.

In my opinion, when you start to mention WoW as a point of reference in any GW2 thread, massive credibility is lost.

Subcription based that has worked long-term? No other game compares. Blizzard is a juggernaut, they have resources that no other MMO game even comes close to at 2nd place, and they had the benefit of forging their path in the marketplace before widespread MMOs were even a thing.

If you use WoW as comparison, then ALL other MMOs should just give up and shut down because it will never stack up.

Even with that, assuming ‘millions’ in PvP is a bit of a stretch (read: active PvPers) without any data to back it up, WoW is fantastic but it’s not like people are lining up JUST to play PvP, whereas GW2 had a thriving following of people ready to play for the PvP alone, and they are being slowly and steadily pushed away from the game.

No.

It has created the dominance of bunker/burst in tPvP, and that will never change so long as conquest is the only game mode, due to the very nature of conquest… take a point quick, defend a point forever… burst, bunker. Mobility between points.

Nothing about those things has a thing to do with great fights to either watch or play.

milo.6942:

Liewec.2896:

“if you only play hotjoin don’t point out that instant death is op.”

wow…just wow.
first these idiots tell you they want your part of the game removed because THEY don’t use it, now they tell you unless you play their part of the game you are’nt allowed an opinion.
we need gasmasks to survive the colossal brainfart they just released…

why don’t you play tournies? why do you like hotjoin better?

I will pipe in here with my reason from my previous post.

In tPvP, the game changes to focus almost entirely on map control… against good teams, there are no more fair 1v1 fights for a node, no more balanced builds, no more creativity that lasts past the odd team full of good players that happen to make their idea work against entry level tPvP teams.

It becomes about mobility, burst, and bunker. That, to me, isn’t as fun as getting to use the quality balanced build that synergizes just so, that I can defeat equal level players after a hard fought fight, and in hotjoin at the moment, you at least get to do that from time to time. The individual can shine in hotjoin, in tPvP, you are part of a unit, and your build is typically forced into a certain pigeon-hole in order to attain maximum efficiency.

Back when I used to play tPvP, my team would almost always win out on any fair fights, 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, and still lose the match because of map control. I agree, we were the worse team and got outplayed, but why make such a fantastic PvP engine, only for the ‘endgame’ to completely bypass all the great things about it and become about map movement speed and overpowering/quickly outnumbering with burst due to bunker builds?

Anyway, THAT… is why I no longer play tPvP. Is my opinion invalid as well?

It’s going to take a very long time and be very difficult at this point, for several reasons. If you peruse the boards over the last 6 months there’s enough evidence without me having to say a thing.

The problem is going to be building an audience for it. At the moment, they are tweaking and nudging their game towards ‘perfection’ and losing playerbase at a pretty steady level for “in-betweeners”… those players who are not quite casual, not quite hardcore tPvP, who are typically the ones who watch and enjoy eSports, and this games current form, to me, pushes those players away the most.

Davinci.8027:

Ezrael.6859:

So if the top 0.5% of the player base should decide the balancing point of the game for the other 99.5%…

Should the pass mark for an exam be set at 97.8% because that’s the average score the top 0.5% of entrants got, never mind the other 99.5% of people taking the exam.

Should the allocation of public spending money be decided by the top 0.5% of earners in a country when they have vastly different priorities and needs compared to the average majority.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion yes, even you Davinci.

However yours is utterly biased to a tiny vocal minority within this community, and when you balance for a minority within a format that is supposed to be inclusive not exclusive you balance badly.

If you pursue your ideas of removing hot joins and raising the skill cap up and up way above the average player you will erode the community to the point that the only people still playing tPvP will be the super hardcore and then the 10 of you left will quit because you only play with each other.

You are so simple and narrow minded.

We can only hope the developers ignore you as much as /mapchat does.

There’s no need for belittling in here.

Your analogy doesn’t really work. What I’m trying to say is that balance should not be made around the low-tier players of this game who are just starting. This game was and is designed around tPvP, NOT Hotjoins.
So, because only 0.5% could achieve a 97.8 or higher, should the exam’s difficulty be reduced to suit the dumb/less studious students? <— This would be a better analogy to suit what I am trying to get at.

I am not asking to balance based on the minority of “elisits” you are alluding it, but rather to the MAJORITY of people playing in *t*PvP.
Anyone who has done more than 100 tournament games will realize that mesmers and thieves are far from OP. Step out of HotJoin, and you will realize and understand what classes truly flourish and which don’t.

Reading things like “Rally shouldn’t exist” boggles my mind because it has been in the game all this time, and many of the team dynamics/mechanics revolve around Rallying.
Thinking “mesmers are OP” because they have a ton of illusions/are hard to target for new players is not reason enough for mesmers to be nerfed. Mesmers have become one of the WORST 1v1 classes.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but in order for an opinion to be valid, it must at least be backed by a certain amount of knowledge/experience.

Exactly, but you didn’t say that. You said “if you play hotjoin only”. Well for me, that’s all I play now because I like to be able to run creative/balanced builds (there’s no place for that in tPvP), and I’ve been playing since BETA. You are just referring to inexperienced/bad opinions and lumping that together as a hotjoin problem, and further aggravating the topic by saying that opinions shouldn’t be said at all.

I’m sure Anet would take the side that all opinions, even the bad ones, deserve to be heard, so long as they are presented in the appropriate manner. Casual play represents the majority of PvP in any healthy MMO, because they are your audience. Imagine if only professional football players watched football? Everyone eating wings and drinking beer and talking smack about each other’s team at the bar just stopped, because their opinion is invalid, because they are not pros.

I realize what you were ‘trying’ to say with your topic, but instead you ended up coming off pretentious.

We’re talking about good, experienced players feedback versus casual, sometimes player feedback, and while yes, any reasonable person would take the advice of the experienced person over the other, that goes without saying or need for a topic basically telling everyone else to shut up.

It is never appropriate or acceptable to tell anyone they have no right to an opinion.