Guild Wars 2

After running several different variations of the “100 nades” build, I’ve come to these conclusions.

1) It is viable overall if you run with at least one other player.

2) High burst damage that basically sacrifices every single other thing we can and do offer to a team

Basically, when people mention how other professions do everything better than us, this type of build and thinking is the reason why. We are not meant for high-damage high-burst without sacrificing much more than other professions.

I’m convinced we are meant to be CC kings, and stability rules in tPvP. If we are not bunker, I now believe our role in tPvP, which is right now handicapped by ease of access to stability… is to neautralize a node without having to kill. We are potentially the best bunker-busters in the game. Anyway, I’m getting off topic, but there. Viable in a group if you must, but it is a rather gimmicky burst build, with even less survivability than Static Discharge in that it requires getting into melee+ range to do, and usually requires you to tether down your opponent enough to get the full potential.

Moskibear.3482:

having recently started dabbling into the engineer (and enjoying it) I felt the flamethrower is more for “up-close combat” but the elixir gun has the bleed that can stack at a safe distance. is it a good idea/viable to use both a flamethrower and an elixir gun or is there a better alternative to build up bleed stacks?

There is a build I’m working on currently that works both into the mix. And considering that with Kit Refinement, the swap to FT kit and EG kit both remove a condition, makes it even more viable.

Naioby.3705:

Kai.3680:

aydenunited.5729:

The thing I have found that makes it VERY hard for me to get away from as an Engineer is that we can do significant burn damage with significant duration in just a few moves, and we don’t even have to spec for condition damage at all for it to be useful.

I agree with this completely. In fact, I ran a build based on burn duration, rather than damage, and noticed a far greater damage outcome than when I was spec’d for cond damage alone. Having a trait within the precision tree for 20% duration was an easy pickup, not to mention all of the +burn duration runes and sigils are cheap. 2xrunes of flame legion, 2x runes of baelfire, 2x runes of balthazar= +45% burn…with trait =65%….with sigil of smoldering=75%…with power tree built up 20 points =95% burn duration…with super veggie pizza I believe I was around 130-140% burn duration. It could easily be argued to run with +cond duration runes and then pick up the burn duration sigil and trait as a kicker. I ran p/p with sigil of fire in addition to the sigil of smoldering. In the power tree I also picked the trait with 33% chance burn on crit. Between the sigil procs, trait procs, and natural burn abilities I was easily able to stack 15-20 seconds of burn on people. My typical utilites were flamethrower, rocket boots, and either an elixir or toolkit. I am not a fan of flamethrower in general but it added to the ability to add burns so I kept it. Not to mention it was fun rocket kicking in and then venting the exhaust to blind right when I reached the target. All in all, I found more rewards from burn applications than bleed but it also felt like a more specific build than the bleed one. It also felt easier to apply bleeds in an AOE fashion than I could with burns. I guess this would mainly be the case because of nades and there ability to spread bleeds to groups with relative ease. Flamethrower was an AOE burn spreader and if it’s bugs weren’t so prevelant I could see it really becoming a premier applier of crit based conditions in general.

Sounds nice but I have a question, you could apply long duration burns and that sounds reallly great more than 20 secs of burn, but, what about those professions that can easily remove condition? wouldn’t it be better to apply burns that does more dmg instead? I started to think about sigil of strenght + sigil of earth and then add runes to add “Might” duration and with the FT u already get 6 might, you can stack up to 25 might and that is, as wiki says:
“With 25 stacks of might at level 80, the bonus is +875 Power and Condition Damage.”
which is a great bonus for everything. Do you agree? or is there any other advantage about duration I’m not seeing? guardians, eles, even engis and thieves with traits to transform conditions into boons can easily remove conditions right?

Stacking might is much more effective in PvE, not as much in sPvP. I’ve run so many might stacking specs it’s ridiculous, and the sad truth I’ve found, in my humble opinion, is that it only works if you’re part of a group and nobody is paying attention to the Engineer laying down steady heavy hit fire, and that’s usually not the case.

The thing about condition removal on our burn specs is how quickly we can re-apply, and then going back to the original topic, we don’t have to sacrifice much to get high quality burn damage, we’re still putting out decent normal damage in the meantime. So unlike a Necro, where a condition removal build nullifies their use, we can still lay down a decent amount.

You also have to remember, in terms of sPvP, when you combine kit refinement with any of our “on heal” Runes + medikit, you significantly unlock a lot of the damage potential of the Engineer at melee-ish range.

I’m of the humble opinion that Rocket Boots fits mostly into burst specs, not condition specs, even though the main damage of the toolbelt skill is a burn.

The main reason being how Static Discharge synergizes with a high damage, close range attack of Rocket Kick, as well as the fact that the insane launch back is more useful for flimsy specs than tough specs, in that you often want to get well out of danger from melee burst if you’re running burst.

Elixir C is much more useful in tPvP due to the increased number of condition based specs you’ll see, Elixir S and Elixir R are the better overall choices since they are stunbreaks + very useful toolbelt skills in any situation.

Currently, I think most people would say we are better suited for PvP, with a few naysayers, although overall we are not anywhere near the top professions, but we can at least provide some tools and skills in PvP that are not as useful in PvE.

From what I read on the forums, Engineer is difficult to play in PvE dungeon settings.

This looks like a non-toolkit version of Teldo’s main build… kind of hard to tell, I can’t really tell what’s going on in the video very easily, it jumps several frames. I can’t complain, my vids are really low rez, but I can’t really see anything you’re doing, honestly.

For anyone that watched my old video, this is just a more offensive variation for tPvP play, and some fun in sPvP as well (took out 3 thieves at once today, they were bad, but still it was gratifying to actually finish all 3 off)

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mcMM9VmNvLMmNvCMp9Mxkittenmobm08khV7070m7kG570V7owY8ofy

The build offers much more offensive power than my previous build at the cost of being less well-rounded 1v1, in that it requires an aggressive opponent or one protecting a node to make full use of the Bomb Kit. If you are good with them, you can replace the Bomb Kit with Grenadge Kit for similar results, though you will miss Big Ol’ Bomb for it’s blowback.

The idea behind this build takes the same idea from my previous build… Kit Refinement and Runes of Balthazaar. It’s ideal for running a bunker off the point, or knocking them off. The idea is to get Incendiary Ammo up, get in quick… via jump shot, or just dodge in… swap kit to Medikit, then immediately to FT, then I either use the FT blowback if I’m taking high damage, or if not, swap to Bomb Kit and place Big Ol’ Bomb and start laying down havoc.

This build is much more susceptible to rangers and necros, but the auto-immune at 25% life helps a lot, in spite of a lot of people’s beliefs that it’s a useless trait.

Anyway, hopefully I will have another low-rez potato computer video to showcase this build in the future, but for now I thought I would put it out there.

Elixir R can also be swapped for Elixir S or Rocket Boots, depending on your style of play. Remember every 10 seconds to try to get back in close and Medikit swap to FT swap for your AoE burns. Keep those burns up as frequently as possible.

Good luck!

The thing I have found that makes it VERY hard for me to get away from as an Engineer is that we can do significant burn damage with significant duration in just a few moves, and we don’t even have to spec for condition damage at all for it to be useful.

It’s a good kit to bring along in any power build, not just this gimmicky burst idea, but the reliability of net shot and jump shot make it a little harder to make work as the sole damage deal of that build.

Try this kit in a power rifle build with some traits spent in explosives, and you’ll get some good results as well when you land it.

Oddly enough, tonight, since this post, is the first time in a couple of weeks I haven’t hadd this bug yet. There is no method to the madness, I say.

MentalPause.9183:

You get stuck in place? I am still moving when it happens, just zooming in and out. Weird.

So far for me, it seems to depend on the terrain. Sometimes I can move forward and it zooms in and out fast, other times, I’m standing in place while it does the same crazy camera thing.

Yeah, it’s just a bug for Asura. Add it to the Engineer bug list, though…. and to me, it makes the Elixir S useless when I play my Asura, because the whole point of being invulnerable for 3 seconds is getting out of LoS and healing up or getting that CD you need. If you rubberband in place… it’s kind of useless.

Sylosi.6503:

Preacher.9526:

We have several ways to remove conditions, should be a non-issue. Even if your just swapping in the Elixir for a specific encounter but you can also trait for some of the best condition removal available to any class.

Several ways, which are in terms of effectiveness for the number of trait points used are worse than most other classes, the only decent condition removal on an engy is if you build in some way for elixirs, the other optons are weak compared to most other classes, which for an allegedly versitile / jack of trades class is pathetic.

Warriors would like to have a word with you.

FYI, I tried running this build with Bomb Kit in place of Toolkit… and changed around the 20 points spent in Explosives to match… to good effect. I don’t have any vids yet, but it’s a great bunker-busting build that way, I just find for general sPvP play, the original build still works due to the all-around nature of it.

I’ve also run this spec with Elixir S, but much like our woes in general, it’s bugged for Asura right now, whenever I use Elixir S, it rubberbands me in place when I try to run.

jportell.2197:

OneManArmy.5617:

Make Portal only self-usable,so only the mesmer can use it. There fixed.

Not there fixed… because portal description is as follows.

Create an entry portal at your location that teleports ALLIES to your exit portal or vice-versa.

It was never designed with the sole purpose for the mesmer to use and the in game description doesn’t say anything about the mesmer using it with the group let alone by themselves…. If it isn’t broken don’t fix it.

You basically said that portals were okay because 99% of mesmers needed them for an escape more than anything, then defend that the entire team should use it. So when you mention mist form, warrior block, etc. etc. those should apply to the entire team as well by that logic.

That’s why it’s so big in PvP, not because the mesmer uses it himself, because a well coordinated team suddenly just jumped 3 guys half a map distance instantly.

Bard.7215:

I’ve been using 4 kits since the beginning

All the Gadgets suck and torrents are so situational you just change to them when you feel the need.

Since Nadespammers were all the jazz since I started an engi, I did Med/Nades/flamethrower/Bomb

By the way, I should also clarify I’m speaking in terms of sPvP, I only mention this because Grenades are one of the least used kits for this so I’m not sure if I was clear, as well as being stunned not as big a deal in WvW or PvE.

So, I’m a firm believer that Anet’s vision for this profession is running multiple kits, with multiple functions going off in between standard damage… I’ve seen my playstyle gradually develop from refusing to run kits, to running with just one, then two, now 3… and I’ve seen my usefulness and viability increase as I’ve learned to do so, especially with Sigils now functioning on gear swap, and Kit Refinement.

And when we get stats to kits, even better. Here’s my dilemma…

I WANT to run a 4 kit setup now… seems that if 2 was better than 1, and 3 was better than 2, 4 would be best… but the problem is stunbreaks.

To all you 4 kit engineers… what do you do to offset the lack of any real stunbreak while using 4 kits? FT smokescreen? Cloaking Device? I’ve been hesitant to run a build seriously without one, but maybe they aren’t as needed in a pinch and I’m not seeing it yet?

Bounce some ideas around, or explain why it works for you.

Portal is the only single skill REQUIRED in tPvP. There is no counter.

Either let everyone use the same portal put down, including the enemy… make it destroyable like a turret or pet… or remove it completely.

I don’t ever call for nerfs on any profession, but I’ll be willing to bet we see this move removed from at least tPvP in the next few months. Mesmers could be the weakest profession in the game and people would still need to take one just because of portal.

If you don’t run with Elixirs, this is the only trait that makes you able to still defeat any class. Without it, and without any other ways to cleanse, you guarantee a loss against certain specs and professions.

And it has to be between 20-25%, if it was at 20%, then my current Rune set’s haste buff would kick in, and it doesn’t.

If you’re running glass, I can bet you don’t see the value of this, because it’s pointless in any spec running less than 2.5k armor or so. Tougher specs shouldn’t turn their nose up at it, however, it is a difference maker between certain matchups in small groups. It’s the difference between me getting out of LoS, healing up, getting a few CDs back and heading back in to fight and… dying as I run.

In tPvP, whether you take it or not is dependant on your role. If you’re a roamer, and none of your teammates cleanse, you need it. If you’re a bunker, you probably want to consider it depending on your spec. If you’re burst, it’s pointless, and if you are condition stack, it’s also pretty pointless, and if you run alongside profs that cleanse, it’s pointless.

Considering how many truly useless trait options we have, this one isn’t one of the best but at least has a use, and can be a game changer. Can’t say that about a lot of our other traits.

Elixir S and the trait associated with giving you this boon is making me “rubberband” now, virtually every time the skill initiates. On screen it looks like a repeated move forward then reset back to right where I was standing for the duration.

My bad, NA region for me.

You can add me to the hotjoin 5v5, if you’d like, for Engineers.

Me: Engineer
Most Feared: Mesmer or Ele
Least Feared: Thief or Warrior

I used to run Elixir X on my old bunker spec because of the knockbacks, but I’ve never had much PvP success with the might stacking builds. They are pretty strong I suppose, but seem to lack that final “punch” to finish the job, which is I guess part and parcel of a lot of the complaints about a lot of our builds. The sustained damage seems pretty strong, though.

Nice video, it was a fun watch.

Incidentally, the FT is the ONLY reason this build works.

The Runes of Balthazaar + FT with refined kit is where the majority of the damage is coming from. A strong 15 second burn every 10 seconds isn’t to be taken lightly, the only rub is getting close enough to rifle both kit swaps off and hit with them both.

Plus the cleanse. Don’t forget the cleanse. I can’t preach the benefit of a basically idle 10 second lose a condition ability. I could even see this fitting into Elixir Gun builds that use Kit Refinement for an additional condition removal.

Also, because some of you might wonder in the vid, sometimes I place the fire wall down where I don’t want my enemy to go, sometimes I place it where I get that 20% chance of my rifle shot being a projectile finisher, sometimes… it just doesn’t lay at the angle I intended and I wasted it.

This nice thing about this build is that’s an easy swap. I’m not that good of a dodger, so I’ve been taking Protection Injection instead of Invigorating Speed to handle some of that damage I’m soaking up until I get used to the build more.

But that’s two great ideas to improve it further… I think I am going to work with that trait and also change to fast ground targeting, I honestly never even thought about that until Caino mentioned it.

Also remember, every swap to FT kit clears a condition! This isn’t mentioned in Kit Refinement, but here’s what’s going on at melee range in every 1-2 punch kit swap, back to back:

1) Blast Trigger (medikit) (200-500 dmg)
2) Flame Blast (medikit) + Flame Blast (flamethrower) (around 15 seconds of burn damage)
3) 3 Stacks of might for 20 seconds, 6 if done again at 10 second mark (medikit traited)
4) Frost Blast (toolkit or flamethrower) (3 seconds of chill + around 500 dmg)
5) Swiftness (any kit) 5 seconds
6) Caltrops (toolkit swap)
7) Cleanse Condition (flamethrower) (every time you get flame blast you clear one condition)

All that doesn’t sound like much damage, but bear in mind all of that takes about 3 seconds to chain together, and you can’t be CC’d out of it. This particular build is a Thief-eater in most cases because of the melee damage it puts out. Against other classes, you’ll need to get in, spam your conditions, and get out, maybe shield and get out of LoS against rangers and such, then come back in when you can spam over again. Magnet and the knockback from Rifle and FT help mitigate the idea of knocking back/pulling in this build is centered around.

It takes a little coordination to get used to, but I promise you that for the survivability of this build, the damage is considerable, and I’m sure some of you could improve on it with different Amulet/Gem combos if you are good at avoidance, I’ve just found when I do this, is becomes much harder to defeat Thieves and Mesmers.

Best of luck and thanks for watching, glad to see some open minds!

Thanks for watching, Choops.

There’s another post I started, back when I first experimented with this build. Here is the one I’ve been running that is more “tPvP” oriented, in that it offers permanent access to swiftness for roaming, makeshift bunkering, above average (for an engineer) damage output, and most importantly, a very overlooked ability to stack a power rifle build with condition damage at melee range.

Incidentally, this is one of the better 1v1 builds for engineers out there as well.

The build itself:

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mcMM9VmCvLMmCvlMG9MxGmaombmo8khV7070m7kG570V7owY8ofy

This video doesn’t really showcase much skill since it’s just some footage I got from an hour or two of pug play, but it does showcase some of the qualities of the build, and this has been tested against better opponents successfully as well. The biggest problem is that when I turn up the quality of my fraps, my FR drops to about 15-20 so it’s too hard to play competetively, which is why the quality on these vids are so bad. My apologies, I am poor.

Anyway, hope some of you enjoy and/or get something out of it, I enjoyed making it.

You get used to the boom after a while.

KirinDave.6451:

aydenunited.5729

We can remove them via:

1) A trait that makes every potion use remove a condition, giving 2 removals per potion (considering the toolbelt skills)

This is the primary way they do it. So it’s on long cooldowns, and you have to use a skill you would otherwise use to help yourself or your team for condition removal.

aydenunited.5729

2) Elixir C, removes all and the toolbelt removes 1

No one carries this, mostly because there is so little room in the Engineer utility slots for this. But yes, this is the Best Option.

aydenunited.5729

3) Elixir R, toolbelt skill

Using Elixir R for this is terrible, and we both know you shouldn’t use it that way.

aydenunited.5729

4) 15 points into Tools line means that at 25% life, you get all of those toolbelt Elixirs back

It’s way too late at this point in the fight.

aydenunited.5729

5) Automated Response gives immunity to any new conditions applied after 25% health

But at 25% you’re probably already well dotted up by most Necromancers, who stack very persistent bleeds. Necromancers can actually break the +100% condition duration cap for bleeds and poison. So at that point they’re going to start spike damaging anyways, and probably fearing you.

aydenunited.5729

6) Kit Refinement + swap to Flamethrower = 1 condition removal every 10 seconds.

I assume you meant Elixir Gun? Yes. But this is another utility slot. Doesn’t fit in many builds.

aydenunited.5729

7) Medikit Drop Antidote every 15 seconds + the ability to stack 2-3 on the node itself if you are playing bunker.

An awkward mechanic that only gets worse if you trait it.

aydenunited.5729

8) Traits in Alchemy line mean 8% of all conditions are not affecting us to begin with

This doesn’t inhibit condition stackers in the slightest. It’s really a rare out out for cripples and immobilizes.

How much more condition removal do we need?

For a bunker? You need both passive and active condition cures that fit in your build.

Most good bunkers have a variety of ways to do this. Most engineer builds do not have room for more that Formula 409. Very very few WvW builds can take the Elixir Gun. Where does Elixir C fit in Tankcat? What happens when you blow your Toss R to clear a single random condition (or maybe 2 if traited?). Besides, Elixir S has greatly eclipsed Elixir R in popularity, because it’s such a better defensive skill.

Necros don’t care about one or two clears every 30 seconds or so. Guardians can barely keep up with them on condition application. And necros counter-clear conditions very well too (their most-used heal actually clears all conditions and gets stronger for every condition, in their heal slot!).

It is, uh, not a mark of shame to have counter builds. They exist. It’s also not a mark of shame to admit the Engineer needs a lot of work and most popular builds don’t handle condition stackers very well.

2 clears every 10 seconds. Both FT and EG with Kit Refinement clears a condition with kit swap every 10 seconds (roughly, it’s actually about 10 seconds from the moment the heal circle ends). Elixir R comes off of CD at 25% life, as well as our heal. If you think the fight is over at 25% for any bunker or medium build, I don’t believe you’ve tried out a lot of the things I’ve mentioned.

The only thing that counters an Engineer directly is based on the build, not the fact that it’s an Engineer. Necros are not a counter for Engies on the whole, they are just a counter for several popular builds that Engies tend to use. But when you have a board full of people saying we only have 1 viable build, no wonder. Nobody tries anything new, they just go with what everyone else is saying.

P.S. Sol, I wasn’t referring to your post, just the one I quoted in the original text.

ShaunZ.1098:

KirinDave.6451:

aydenunited.5729:

Except that you’re nice and low on HP, and your condition damage goes limp at 25% with Automated Response. And even if you kill me the first time, I’ve already got Elixir R thrown on the ground and rez myself to continue the fight.

Hypothetical duels don’t really mean much, we could go back and forth all day countering what the other can do in words. I would love to face more tough Necros to work on my build, look me up in game and we’ll have a go sometime, should be fun.

I sort of agree with the sentiment that mind duels are only cool in Kungkittenmovies, but Necros are a very nasty class for engineer bunkers to deal with. I think it’s worth talking about because it highlights some of the weak points of TANKCAT.

Probably the hardest part about being an engineer is dealing with condition builds. Engineers simply lack good condition clearing, and they’ve very vulnerable to having their limited access to buffs stolen. TANKCAT’s primary damage output is Retaliation, but they actually have limited access to it. If you take it away or don’t do the bulk of your damage via direct hits, TANKCAT has basically no way to do anything but slowly lumber away dropping easily avoidable nail fields.

Necros are a particularly bad type of condition build to deal with for tanky engineers. Unless they’re spec’d heavily AoE, they will keep conditions on you always, corrupt your boons, ignore your burst, wait out your blocks. And if you are one of the rare engineers that spec’s to ignore conditions at 25% hp, the Necro can pop death shroud and actually hit shockingly hard with life blast. And that’s assuming they haven’t been banking their ultimate.

The main reason Necros are not an absolute terror in small groups in WvW is because they tend to roll with utilities that give them the best AoE condition damage options in the game. Swapping out Epidemic for Corrupt Boon changes that equation, as does trading in a staff for a dagger/dagger or dagger/focus. Occasionally you see users like Sheobix make roamer power builds and they’re pretty frightening to watch (necro’s melee damage is shockingly strong). I’ve never seen an engineer build has a chance in hell of beating a well melee necro. The easy access to Stability (from DS), Chill, and Corrupt Boon just ruins Engineers of all kinds.

Anyways, the greatest strength of an Engineer is supposed to be mid-fight versatility. It is currently not the case that engineers have that (and Rangers do it better with pet swapping, not that it’s great). For now, Engineer’s actual greatest strength is that if you want you can rock so many knockbacks that you can keep melee players on the ground for quite some time, and stability becomes a must-have. Of course, Engineers have no real ways to capitalize on this power because their direct damage options are so lackluster, but if you’re rolling with a team you can make the fight much easier for the team by keeping enemies on the floor.

I completely agree with the last paragraph. Engineers are the banana peel class of GW2

I can’t debate WvW, but just to clarify on the post about us removing conditions:

We can remove them via:

1) A trait that makes every potion use remove a condition, giving 2 removals per potion (considering the toolbelt skills)

2) Elixir C, removes all and the toolbelt removes 1

3) Elixir R, toolbelt skill

4) 15 points into Tools line means that at 25% life, you get all of those toolbelt Elixirs back

5) Automated Response gives immunity to any new conditions applied after 25% health

6) Kit Refinement + swap to Flamethrower = 1 condition removal every 10 seconds.

7) Medikit Drop Antidote every 15 seconds + the ability to stack 2-3 on the node itself if you are playing bunker.

8) Traits in Alchemy line mean 8% of all conditions are not affecting us to begin with

How much more condition removal do we need?

I’m making a thread here to discuss the things that are in error on tooltips, or just things omitted completely that might be useful info, as well as tips and tricks of things that we can do that may or may not have been thought of by other Engineers in the community.

1) The Kit Refinement AoE fire for flamethrower also removes a condition.
2) Packed Stimulants reduces the cooldown of Drop Stimulant to 15 seconds, and the Fury and Swiftness duration is increased for that with this skill.

3) Bandages you place on the ground appear to last for 40 seconds. This means you can keep roughly 9 on the ground at all times while you wait for a fight while bunkering, effectively adding 9k+ heals to the beginning of the fight if you walk over a nice little stack of them in one spot.

4) A turret can be placed and left to auto-attack the oponnents base in Foefire, and it will trigger their automated “Your Base is Under Attack” prompt, even if you are not there.

5) Kit swaps (and their subsequent effects with Kit Refinement) can be used while stunned.

Any other pieces of information or tricks found, please post here to help consolidate the info and ideas.

This is my other Engineer, Rumzi. I have this storyline going on in my head on how he’s friends with Stug and the odd-couple (between the quirky astute Asura and the gruff old human drunkard) get into whimsical situations.

No, I’ve been running a build that combined the two, but static discharge only works directly from pressing the toolbelt button. This is, however, a way for us to stack some of our best non-glass-cannon burst damage at close range, by CCing the enemy, leaping in, and unloading a couple of kit swap AoEs piled with a couple of static discharges afterwards.

Rhinzual.7861:

aydenunited.5729:

Terrahero.9358:

mifbifgiggle.6713:

probably 1v1s. get the right build and you simply won’t lose.

Funny, thats what some Eles say. And Necro’s. And Mesmers. And Guardians. And Thieves. And Rangers. And Warriors.

We cant all not lose. And with the distinct lack of proper damage, weaker support, lack of Stability, i dont think its the Engineer.
A necro would tear you a few new ones without a doubt. Making your damage even worst, and denying you all your boons.

We have just as much “do not die” ability than any other profession. 2 second reflect + 3 second block + 3 second block +3 second invulnerable + 3 second invulnerable at 25% life + utility heal off of CD at 25% life + 4-6 dodges in a row if spec’d the right way, Elixir R to rez yourself even if you don’t make it through the first two minutes of fighting.

Now say, vs. 1v2 and 1v3, other professions do better at us weathering several attackers, but 1v1, we’re in the same boat as anyone else.

As a scepter+dagger Necro specializing in conditions, I could just wait for your blocks to end, my attacks have zero projectiles to reflect, and I’ll just slap you with Blood is Power on top of my other bleeds and oh what’s that? You slapped a bunch of conditions on me and I’m losing health? One sec while I pop my 20 second CD heal and get rid of all those conditions that will fuel the strength of such an awesome heal. Boons on you? I’ll hold off on Consume Conditions and slap you with Corrupt Boon and then use my heal to get rid of all my self-inflicted conditions on top of whatever you gave me.

Your invulnerability skills? I can wait them out. Oh I see you got me nice and low on hp, but you’re bleeding out like a protagonist in Gantz, Death Shroud for long invulnerability, a quick fear, a strong life-steal that auto-hits, a half-decent auto-attack nuke and an entirely separate lifebar for you to chew through.

Whatever you can do, I can do better, sad but true.

Except that you’re nice and low on HP, and your condition damage goes limp at 25% with Automated Response. And even if you kill me the first time, I’ve already got Elixir R thrown on the ground and rez myself to continue the fight.

Hypothetical duels don’t really mean much, we could go back and forth all day countering what the other can do in words. I would love to face more tough Necros to work on my build, look me up in game and we’ll have a go sometime, should be fun.

redslion.9675:

That’s still the problem: too many people say they never lose a 1v1.

It’s true, though, and that’s a problem on the sPvP forums… “bunkers” in general, can make builds that will never die 1v1. Now if people are saying they always defeat everyone 1v1, that’s a little different.

Chickenshoes.6250:

nevirsay has it all right on everything.

I would like to re-iterate that flamethrower is junk. I found the secret to always making it hit. You’re supposed to hold the camera button in the direction you want to shoot while walking around. The flame particles themselves are complete nonsense for show. That doesn’t make the flamer worth it though For less effort you could just work on turning your rifle into a bullet hose ’cuz it has better range.

I would just like to help clarify what the kit refinement actually does (although I never take it over speedy kits. Where isn’t permanent sprint useful?)

Toolkit kit refinement is totally useful. Look at your box of nails skill, try it once or twice on some mobs. It’s a stacking AoE cripple kitten Kit-refinement on toolkit means you spam nails everywhere you go (10 second cooldown.) Anything that’s had 2 boxes of nails under them isn’t going anywhere fast. Very useful in PvP.

Med-kit refinement just makes a loud, weak blast with no radius. You can spam it for some flashy effects, but it isn’t going to help you with anything.

Flametrower kit-refinement has a “fireblast.” It’s a weak burn over an insultingly small radius, but what I’ve found is that it also cleans a condition off of you.

Bomb-kit drops a bomb. What else is there to say?

Mostly what you say here. We received a big buff last patch for anyone running the 3-kit set and Kit Refinements. Pack on the right runes and Sigils? We’re popping AoE conditions and heals and stacking might every few seconds, just by browsing through our kits.

Kimbald.2697:

aydenunited.5729:

Terrahero.9358:

mifbifgiggle.6713:

probably 1v1s. get the right build and you simply won’t lose.

Funny, thats what some Eles say. And Necro’s. And Mesmers. And Guardians. And Thieves. And Rangers. And Warriors.

We cant all not lose. And with the distinct lack of proper damage, weaker support, lack of Stability, i dont think its the Engineer.
A necro would tear you a few new ones without a doubt. Making your damage even worst, and denying you all your boons.

We have just as much “do not die” ability than any other profession. 2 second reflect + 3 second block + 3 second block +3 second invulnerable + 3 second invulnerable at 25% life + utility heal off of CD at 25% life + 4-6 dodges in a row if spec’d the right way, Elixir R to rez yourself even if you don’t make it through the first two minutes of fighting.

Now say, vs. 1v2 and 1v3, other professions do better at us weathering several attackers, but 1v1, we’re in the same boat as anyone else.

so we have:
-shield and pistol
- tool kit
- traits in alchemy
- traits in tools
- traits in inventions
- elixir S
- elixir R

sure, you’ll live.
But what are you killing in this imaginary build?
1 v 1 is still about killing the other too…

This touches upon the real issue with engineers: we can not be versatile, we always build for one thing or another. In your example it’s a build for bunkering, tanking. It has no damage left that is competetive at all. Not with what you are listing.

No, for WINNING just about any 1v1, I use my current build which is nothing like this. I was merely showing our tools in which we could never die 1v1, just like the other professions have.

We absolutely can be versatile, and the fact that so many Engineers try to stack all of one thing is one of the main reasons so many struggle. Taking all turrets, all potions, all gadgets, all condition damage, all might stacking… are usually horrible ideas that peter out and don’t offer enough bang for the buck, and I think that’s the first wall most Engineers face when they are playing this class.

Then once you start experimenting you find there are a lot of really good builds, particularly 1v1 builds. My current build being able to bunker 1v1 and 1v2 for a while, permanent swiftness for running between nodes, power damage + condition damage output at melee range, and a tossable rez for yourself or a team-mate, is pretty “versatile” to me, though that buzzword is really getting tiresome and losing it’s meaning by now.

Terrahero.9358:

mifbifgiggle.6713:

probably 1v1s. get the right build and you simply won’t lose.

Funny, thats what some Eles say. And Necro’s. And Mesmers. And Guardians. And Thieves. And Rangers. And Warriors.

We cant all not lose. And with the distinct lack of proper damage, weaker support, lack of Stability, i dont think its the Engineer.
A necro would tear you a few new ones without a doubt. Making your damage even worst, and denying you all your boons.

We have just as much “do not die” ability than any other profession. 2 second reflect + 3 second block + 3 second block +3 second invulnerable + 3 second invulnerable at 25% life + utility heal off of CD at 25% life + 4-6 dodges in a row if spec’d the right way, Elixir R to rez yourself even if you don’t make it through the first two minutes of fighting.

Now say, vs. 1v2 and 1v3, other professions do better at us weathering several attackers, but 1v1, we’re in the same boat as anyone else.

Sylosi.6503:

Engineers playstyle is fun, however there are very obvious reasons as to why they are not popular (they were once more popular, especially in tPvP, but nerfs have dropped them down the pecking order in their best role), they hit like a wet kipper and do not fufil the basic premise of their class design (they are not versitile / jack of all trades), have flaws and bugs all over the shop and in most situations are simply not top tier (or often even second tier) for the job in hand.

Incidentally it has nothing to do with them being a “difficult” class, Eles are a difficult class, there is no shortage of Eles.

Sure it does, because some of us are doing just as well as any other class. But you look at the threads here… hundreds of responses in joke posts about how we suck, 5 in ones that post good builds. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.

People also tend to forget that you can claim a node in conquest without having to kill the bunker, will well timed pulls or knockbacks. The problem in this respect is how long stability applies to a guardian compared to other professions. Engineers would have a much bigger place in the current meta if the duration or CD of “Stand Your Ground” was looked at closer.

Don’t get me wrong, if you give me 30 seconds or so, I can take the point from the Guardian, but you don’t have that long in tPvP before their team arrives.

I guess what I’m saying is, bunkers are only a problem because of Guardians, and Guardians are only a problem because of stability, to me. But this is also from an Engineer’s perspective, and there isn’t very many of those flying around right now so it might not carry much weight. But if you reduced duration and CD of stability on Guardian bunkers, all that defense wouldn’t mean as much in conquest when they can’t stand on the node long enough to keep it with all that defense.

To me, OP means, as you approach a high level of game play, a certain profession in a certain build will always win 1v1 against any other profession, or provides something that makes them mandatory. In this case, with Portal, I feel Mesmer is currently the only “OP” profession in that respect. Guardians are skimming the rim of it, but still in a good place overall since the fix to weapon swaps in tPvP play to ruin their swiftness ability.

“Cheap” to me means a certain class can acheive above average results with little effort compared to other classes, but does not mean they are better or mandatory. This is where Thieves fall for me. They are cheap… and annoying… but in general, 1v1 vs. any other profession without any type of distractions going on, they are mid to above mid tier overall to me, but not even close to what I call “OP”.

IMO.

It’s arguably the most difficult class in the game to master, because aside from juggling skillsets like an Elementalist does, and unlike an Elementalist, one single trait or off build can ruin the entire build. We have to spec into odd things to find damage… Static Discharge, Kit Refinement, etc… and these things aren’t as easily tangible for damage as other professions who easily stack things.

This, coupled with the general MMO attitude of “if I haven’t seen it on a forum yet from a pro it’s not viable” means people are really missing out on the potential of this class, at least from a PvP perspective. This game hasn’t been out long enough for everyone to know everything we can do, and if you look through a few of the build posts on this forum, you’ll find that Engies running a 3 kit set with kit refinement are starting to find a whole new way to apply condition damage.

Little things like this is why we are tweaked in small amounts, and nerfed in places people don’t understand or like.

The bug fixes, however… I agree, are WAY past due, as there’s no way to reliably buff or nerf our class until everything is working as intended.

Many Engineers don’t even know what the hell they can do.

Teldo is a great Engie. Watching his stream is how I finally started to understand the class as a whole, even though my current build is nothing like his now.

In PvP, it’s very useful if you don’t use elixirs… the whole “you die in a couple hits anyway” doesn’t apply to any build with a good bit of survivability. It’s a life-saver combined with Self Regulated Defense, as you get 3 seconds of invulnerability to get to a place where you can quickly apply your heal that you also get back at 25% due to the trait in the Tools line, even if that means just quickly running behind your opponent, or quickly swapping to Medikit and popping a couple of bandages.

Not saying it’s the best way to mitigate damage, but if you don’t run elixirs to mitigate damage or an Elixir Gun Kit, it’s almost mandatory for any survivable build, otherwise any Necro or condition Ranger is an auto-loss.

Glad you’re having fun with it, it’s been very kind to me so far, it doesn’t feel like such a chore to accomplish good damage and you’re not squishy, damage is easily delivered, and on top of the condition damage, might stacking, and power rifle, you’re firing off a few static discharges here and there as well. I could see this build working well and becoming more mobile by swapping Static Discharge for Speedy Kits and taking an Elixer R as well.

I might give it a shot with a Carrion Amu and see if I like the damage results vs. the lack of toughness.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mcMM9cz0mCTLMmvMCMG9MxGmaombMm8khV7070m7kG570V7owY8ofy

Edited post, forgot to update skill bar. Use this one instead.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mcMM9cz0mTMLMmvMCMG9MxGmaombMm8khV7070m7kG570V7owY8ofy

Is the current build I’m running. Remember to properly play it (or if you will, the tactic that is crushing young thieves), you are trying to provide AoE damage at close range, so the staple way to start/finish a fight is with a Jump Shot into melee range (usually net them first) then swap to medikit in while you are “hovering” in the air, then swap to flamethrower kit upon land, dodge away and swap to Toolkit to defend if necessary.

Watch for condition their removal. If they removed your fire, cripple, bleed, or chill effect granted, wait 10 seconds and do the same thing again.

And also remember, even if you get loaded up with conditions yourself, at 25% you hit the reset button with a shrink and immune to conditions, be ready to either unload everything after this, or seek to get out of LoS and heal up. At 20% life you will have haste for 5 seconds, this is basically an insta-heal if you time it right.

Good luck!

“What we’ve got here is a failure to play engineer.” -Cool Hand Luke (1967)