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WvW with RTS elements

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

No I haven’t, just read it on wikipedia and it sounds interesting!

Night Capping and YOU

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

I made a little picture to illustrate what I think of Piken Square (lower half of EU servers).

http://imageshack.us/a/img803/7739/modelf.jpg

The magenta part seems to be what is causing trouble for us. We do well in prime hours but every server we’ve been matched against just seems to sleep a bit later than us.

WvW with RTS elements

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

Very true Windmoor. It would almost resemble all the taking supply from keeps we currently have. Ideally, the community should be discuss and come to a consensus but in practice it won’t go this way. I don’t know what kind of system should be put in place but regardless, I personally wouldn’t want “building permission” to be given to a select few.

Everyone might have their ideal placements but I think dynamics of battle will weed out the poor ones. Suppose two sites were being built, site one is very close to the enemy castle and site two is near a lumber camp currently under our control further away from the castle.

Site two is far more likely to be successfully built then site one because it is closer to the wood, further away from enemies. Site one on the other hand, enemies can raid it, Dolyak has to travel further which means a longer route and higher risk of getting ganked and it also means slower build rate.

However, you might decide that you want build a “supply hub” like those supermarket distribution centres. This in turn might make site one easier to build.

But in general, something to stop griefing would be needed but how it should be done I’m not sure.

Stealth is bad due to a lack of counters

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defrule.7236

I didn’t mention anything about punishing, I only said it was problematic and gave an example of it.

You are reading something that isn’t there mate.

You are in a thread called Stealth is bad, not rendering issues are bad. I read just fine.

Fair enough, just don’t put words in my mouth next time.

I have no more words for you.

Stealth is bad due to a lack of counters

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

I didn’t mention anything about punishing, I only said it was problematic and gave an example of it.

You are reading something that isn’t there mate.

WvW with RTS elements

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

Think of it this way. Imagine it was me versus you versus Joe.

Suppose we fight in Eternal as it is now, there is freedom in what we the players do. But as for the map itself, there is no freedom because Eternal is the same this week, next week and the week after.

Now suppose we were on a clean map with free building capability. This week I might have a keep right on top of a mountain, next week I might have a castle by a river, the week after I might have a “Great Wall of China” on the map.

Not only are your tactics going to change, the map play differently every week because of the free building choices. Technically it is the same map but we the players build it into something different.

Stealth is bad due to a lack of counters

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defrule.7236

And the rendering issue is the thief profession’s fault, I got you.

I didn’t say that.

WvW with RTS elements

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

could make maps consisting of single “pieces” that are put together randomly every now and then or might be a really bad idea :-p

Reminds me of minecraft a bit lol.

I was thinking that with my proposal, they can create many different maps and rotate them each week.

Different maps call for different building strategies.

Even if you play on the same map week in week out, the dynamics of the match would be different each time because people will build thing differently.

Sieging would be about preparation more than showing up with blueprints and supply. You would build siege camps to act as a rally point to siege.

Stealth is bad due to a lack of counters

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defrule.7236

Stealth combined with current rendering issues are problematic.

I’ve had theives that didn’t even render until around 10 seconds after the inital strike.

WvW with RTS elements

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

One of the things I find a shame in WvW is that each map is fixed in stone, Eternal, Borderlands, they all remain the same from match to match and the only thing that does change is ownership.

Real time strategy games have a perk in that the same maps can be played very differently. In one matchup players might build walls and towers one way but in another matchup they might build it another way. The same map can result in a very different match.

My idea of introducing RTS elements into WvW is to give more diverse battles. No more pre-determined forts/keeps and fixed locations, you begin each match with a clean sheet. Unspoiled terrain with caves, forests, mountains, oceans, you name it and it is there.

You begin at your home village aka your spawn essentially. Your spawn has a wood supply camp which gives a low but steady supply of wood to allow you to build outwards. You can build forts anywhere, any size and any layout you want. You can build a Helm’s Deep style fortress at a good location or you can build standard looking forts we have now.

Building anywhere? People would spam structures all over the place! Now here is the catch. You can build anywhere provided you can transport the materials to that location to build it. In theory, you can build a fort right outside the enemy spawn first thing but Dolyaks would take a long time to transport materials to the build site and they will be very vulnerable to attack in their long journey. The closer you decide to build the fort, the shorter the distance the Dolyak needs to travel to get wood to it.

What stops me building tons of stuff near my spawn? You can do that but think of it as building 10 trebuchets at the same time versus building one trebuchet after another. The wood supply at your spawn is steady but low so if you build many things at once then progress will be slow on all structures.

As you progress into the map, more resources open up, stone, gold and more wood. Securing stone will allow you to build stone structures and gold will allow you to hire better guards. These resources will be contested over by all three sides.

Sieging is no longer done by blueprints and supply. In order to siege a keep, you need to build the siege weapon and transport it to the location. As an example, your team might have a lumbercamp near an enemy castle that you want to siege. You would build the trebuchet in the lumbercamp and have a Dolyak pull it to the castle to deploy. Be careful though, enemies can easily kill the guard escorting the Dolyak and lead it back their their own base for use. The same applies to any Dolyak transporting wood/gold/stone, enemies can kill the guard and lead the Dolyak back to camp to take the supply or they can destroy it on the spot.

The idea behind this is to introduce logistics into the game. You choose where you want your keeps/forts. You arrange materials to be transported to the locations that need it. You arrange to have siege weapons transported to the front lines.

Mortar is the worst elite skill in the game.

in Engineer

Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

Absolutely agree. Poor damage compared to alternatives, poor range given its immobility, fragility and easy to avoid.

IF WvWvW is to be 24/7/365......

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

@Wolve: While I agree that universal servers would have benefited WvW, there are two obvious explanations for the solution ANet chose:

1. Regional server parks keep the ping rate low and allow for a more responsive connection. As you know, nobody likes lag.

2. Some servers are tagged because of the language barrier, which is actually quite important to many players. Blame the Babylonians.

~MRA

Latency will be higher but it won’t be bad. You consider games like Lord of the Rings Online who now host all servers in the US after taking the business back from Codemasters and it works fine.

One could argue that it would favour players closer to the physical servers. However, even with the higher latency, if you play in typical hours for your timezone, you will largely be competing with players who are subject to the same latency as well.

I mean if you take Oceanic players as an example, any American player has a ping advantage but this advantage probably irrelevant because they don’t play at the same time.

Night Capping and YOU

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

I don’t know, It is pretty much known that the servers that keep winning in NA are the ones with an Oceanic presence.

I know that much.

What I’m saying is here in the EU at the bottom of the ladder, Oceanics and Americans aren’t the primary source of night capping. It’s simply the difference in when people log off that leads to the night capping here.

Night Capping and YOU

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

Night capping isn’t entirely the fault of players from other continents. Eu servers have comparatively less Oceanic and American players but night capping is still an issue. And it’s not just at the top of the ladder because the problem perpetuates down the ladder.

We still have night capping issues simply because some servers stay up longer than others. In my matchup with Piken Square, Ring of Fire and Vabbi, Ring of Fire has been taking almost the entire map after midnight. And it’s primarily because our numbers dwindle much more than theirs after midnight.

So often I hear that we should be recruiting guilds from other parts of the world and many have outlined why this isn’t feasible. Even if you do manage to pull it off, all you are doing is avoiding being bullied by becoming the bully.

Each server should have had a uniform distribution of people from all over the world but classification of Eu and US servers goes against this. And it’s the reason why queue times are so high on some servers because it has a high concentration of people in the same timezone.

If I play when you sleep and you sleep when I play, there is no need to have a server for each of us.

Some EU servers have NA players. Some well-known examples of this is French-Canadians on the French speaking EU servers.

Yet on the servers that don’t have large NA presence we still face night capping. I know about Vizunah Square but not all servers are like them here in the Eu. My server which is at the bottom half of the ladder, it’s about who sleeps first rather than who has international presence.

Is WvW home servers a solution?

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

At this point in the game it is hard to encourage people to spread evenly among the servers. Some servers have 24 hour presence, some can only compete at prime hours. Some servers have long queues, some servers don’t know what a queue is.

Server merging is not an option.

So why don’t we decouple WvW from current home servers and create “WvW home servers”?

For example: WvW 1, WvW 2, . . . , WvW 24

Players will have to choose a WvW home server in addition to their PvE home server.

Benefits
1. Two players can be in the same PvE server but different WvW servers.
2. It allows the community to divide themselves better to support international servers.
3. Extra freedom in terms of choosing where you want to PvE and where you want to WvW.
4. For ArenaNet, more control in locking transfers. They will be able to lock PvE and WvW transfers independently. It means they can stop WvW jump-shipping without affecting PvE transfers.

Night Capping and YOU

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

Night capping isn’t entirely the fault of players from other continents. Eu servers have comparatively less Oceanic and American players but night capping is still an issue. And it’s not just at the top of the ladder because the problem perpetuates down the ladder.

We still have night capping issues simply because some servers stay up longer than others. In my matchup with Piken Square, Ring of Fire and Vabbi, Ring of Fire has been taking almost the entire map after midnight. And it’s primarily because our numbers dwindle much more than theirs after midnight.

So often I hear that we should be recruiting guilds from other parts of the world and many have outlined why this isn’t feasible. Even if you do manage to pull it off, all you are doing is avoiding being bullied by becoming the bully.

Each server should have had a uniform distribution of people from all over the world but classification of Eu and US servers goes against this. And it’s the reason why queue times are so high on some servers because it has a high concentration of people in the same timezone.

If I play when you sleep and you sleep when I play, there is no need to have a server for each of us.

Will a $3000 Graphics Card lag in WvW?

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

You’re buying that for GW2?

Why you get damaged when you die in WvW?

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defrule.7236

As such, prolonged siegebattles are completely unbeneficial to the attacker. But extremely beneficial to the defender, who gets a “Repel the Invader”-event reward every 3minutes.
So, you got nothing for 3h. The defenders got full karma/gold/experience reward about 60x, for just tossing some AoEs from the walls.

Did they not change it so you only get a reward if attackers are actually repelled?

I don’t seem to get anything from the Repel events if people are still sieging after the timer expires, it just resets.

Making the Engineer flamethrower more interesting and useful.

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

A skill that uses a smaller nozzle to concentrate the flame giving it better range and increased damage at the expense of AoE.

Would Oceanic servers solve the problem?

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

Even if you did have oceanic servers, consider this.

Within these servers you will likely will have uneven divisions. You might have a Kiwi server, a server will more western Aussie presence and such.

The Kiwi server will suffer from late capping because it might fight a server that has heavy western Aussie presence. You will still have issues within your own oceanic servers.

Would Oceanic servers solve the problem?

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

Night capping issue doesn’t necessarily mean it’s due to oceanic players.

Here in Piken Square (Eu), in our previous match we lose our map usually around after midnight and it wasn’t because our opponents had Oceanics or Americans. It was mainly because our number dropped significantly right after midnight whereas our opponents stay online until 1AM-ish.

Can’t say that is alarm-clocking or Oceanic players. It’s more of an issue of when activity drops on the servers.

Region locking is needed to keep WvW enjoyable.

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defrule.7236

You need to understand that it isn’t entirely a region issue. I just have to stay one hour later than you and the map is mine.

Even within Eu servers there are differences in when activity dies.

Queue size data from 9-14 to 9-18 (NA)

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defrule.7236

Just as I thought, there are times when there is room on European servers but US are busy queuing and vice versa.

Wasted WvW space because of the Eu-US divide.

Queue size data from 9-14 to 9-18 (NA)

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defrule.7236

If Kaineg and Pike Square were the same server.

http://imageshack.us/a/img213/8296/kainengpiken.png

Should equipment damage exist in WvW?

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

It’s hard to justify trying high risk stunts with the repair cost and certainly hurts outnumbered teams much more who will get ganked left and right.

Anet addresses night capping

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

It doesn’t have to be 24/7 to be a problem. All you need is a server that plays 1-2 hours later than it’s competition and the map is theirs. 24/7 is the extreme case.

As you go down the ladder there is no guarantee that other servers will log off at the same time as you. The best case scenario is to have 2 other servers that have completely identical activity curves but what are the chances of that?

Current European match-ups and scores

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

As of now:

Vabbi 180k
Piken Square 72k
Ring of Fire 69k

And here we go again Far Shiverpeaks Vs Vizunah Sqaure.

in WvW

Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

This can’t be good for Vizunah either, eventually servers that face them might simply boycott so they go down a bracket next round. Each match they will just 100% cap in an hour then wait for reset in a week.

Too difficult to defend keeps?

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

At the moment with retaliation rendering Arrow Carts near useless, defending probably is too difficult.

I can’t wait until they make siege weapons immune.

This just in from GW2 Twitter!

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defrule.7236

I’m thinking, since WvW has a population cap then servers that are constantly jammed 24/7 won’t benefit from recruiting more. In fact, it just adds more people to their queue and increases competition to get into WvW for their server.

mesmer skill: portal has GOT to go for WvW

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

You can’t exploit with Portal. If you had a keep ninja’d from you it is because the mesmer was hiding in the keep and wasn’t found. Developers came up with this idea themselves in one of their videos.

Current European match-ups and scores

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

Not much going around in this forum to do with Eu match-ups. Spare a few minutes and report the current situation in your matches.

I’m on Piken Square, currently versus Vabbi and Ring of Fire.

These scores was around half an hour ago before I logged off.
160k Vabbi
60-70k Ring of Fire & Piken Square

What went wrong with WvW?

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

Server structure
Server structure is pivotal in the balance of WvW because it dictates how the millions of players around the world divide themselves. ArenaNet opted for a EU/US server structure which makes sense in terms of reducing latency and promoting players in the same continents playing together. However, this structure fails at promoting international servers with 24/7 activity which is needed for competitive WvW. Europeans and Americans have inherently been split into two camps, the US servers don’t have Europeans to depend on during their off-peak hours and vice versa. This is the reason why so many servers are vulnerable during late night hours but a select few servers who have international presence are stronger around the clock.

Lack of equilibrium restoration
The system should ideally be helping losing sides push the fight back to an even state. Currently there is no mechanic that does this in fact, precisely the opposite is true. The system helps the dominant force keep the fight at the extremities aka full map control. A good system should make it extremely hard for a team to take another teams home keep and relatively easy for the losing team to get their home keep back.

Supply
Teams being pushed back to their spawn cannot reliably get supply. At best you can take a supply camp to replenish what you have on you but once they are retaken, you are back to working with limited resources. Defending the supply camp may not be a choice when you face overwhelming numbers and need all hands at a tower to take it.

I originally would have liked a supply point at the spawn but I figure it should only be available to those in desperate need of it. I would propose the supply point to be active when the outnumbered buff is active.

Match-making
From the way we know it works at the moment it is largely in-effective. Three similar scoring servers can be a total mismatch even though it is the best matchup by score. Match making ought to be more complex and match based on activity hours as well.

(edited by defrule.7236)

The downward spiral of inefficient match making

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

Eu and Us server split was ASKING for population problems at certain hours.

US servers have less europeans and all it takes is a few servers that have a larger Eu presence and your balance goes out the window.

Eu and Us server split was a poor decision. It might work for PvE but not in WvW which are 24/7 battles. WvW needs to be fought by international servers but at the moment only a handful are international.

Kaineng... going down... Dev's... send... reinf *end transmission*

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defrule.7236

Feel sorry for Kaineng. This is probably the best matchup they can give and it’s still a disaster.

ArenaNet better not be relying on the players to balance themselves out they need to do something about this. It seems for every good matchup there is also one terrible one.

[Merged] World Mismatches?

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

Transfer now costs gems according to a guild member.

You can’t expect entire guilds to pay gems to transfer for your sake.

Vizunah Square [FR] and Far Shiverpeaks, it's just not a fair game.

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

Just boycott when fighting Vizunah so they get no action and your score goes lower and you get demoted to fight better servers.

My personal opinion: Retaliation is too strong in WvW

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

I definitely agree. They die before they even make a dent sometimes.

Remove repair cost from WvW..

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

I make about 1 gold an hour in WvW so you must be doing something wrong. Sell all the stuff that drops if its not green. If its green, check the TP price, and if its not good, sell it to a vendor.

I used to think the cost was too high as well, but the higher level you get, the more loot drops. My average repair at level 65 is around 5-7 silver, I am selling at least 20 silver worth of items (usually more) each time im at the repair vendor.

If action is competitive you can make gold but it’s substantially harder if you have next to nothing on the map and are outnumbered.