More then I would have gotten before league.
I have a pretty simply approach to league. Before league, every week was a different set of “stomp”, get stomped" and everything in between. With league ,every week is the same variety except now I have some achievements, and at the end of the league I will get some reward. Simply I am getting more for doing the WvW I do weekly anyway. It certainly brought more players out the first couple weeks and has settled back to more of the norm. I think it was a nice addition and I have some faith they will learn stuff from it.
I also play on Yak’s Bend, and have seen some of the sour talk that has been going on recently in map chat. I think some of those players need to step back, take a breath, and look at realistic options. If you are worrying about PPT when playing a FA or SBI then you are in for a world of disappointment. For the sake of argument if the league had included FA and SBI into gold league, then the rest of the servers would be complaining about Yaks, and DB.
You have to take the bad with good. Look for enjoyable things to do during a week when we are getting trounced. Roam, try an alt, try new builds, practice the 5 man ninja Hills take, etc. if you need a break, take the week off. It is a game, and I know the pvp population have a tendency to take it a bit to serious, but its just not that important. Think how bored SBI has been this week at times when they own all 4 maps at the same time.
Glad this other thread was bumped:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Final-solution-for-league-and-transfersMaybe the reason we’ve had a lack of response about this topic is because Devon’s already made his opinion know…
I hope you take into consideration adding achievements that encourage zergs to disperse. Lets not have another WvExp situation.
Although, all in all, I’m not enthusiastic about this new system. I fail to understand the concept of “competition” that you hope to instill, when the playing field is inherently unbalanced. Numbers win everything. How is that a fair competition?
At no point did I, or would I have, said “Fair competition” WvW is not intended to be “fair”. There are servers with more people, there are servers with better organizations and that will always be the case. This competition will be about showing how your world can do over a defined period of time, against a variety of opponents. SPvP is the part of our game that aims for a completely level playing field. WvW would never be able to match that goal.
In his opinion WvW isn’t about fair competition, can never have a level playing and if you want one, go play sPvP.
And he is right. Population goes far beyond simple numbers. The difference between a border land with 100 WvW organized players of 2-3 guilds vs 100 puggers is beyond belief. Outside of possibly the top 3 servers of gold league, there are no server matchups that are balanced with 24/7 coverage, all WvW oriented guilds etc. Part of the fun of WvW vs PvP is the variety of the fights, and not knowing what is around the corner. yes there are more unbalanced matchups then balanced, and hopefully a few ideas will come out in this thread to help smooth out those unblanaced match ups
One of the biggest issues during unbalanced population matches is siege. This becomes an even bigger issue in Eternal. Typical unbalanced match starts with the strong realm taking SM. Immediately they build 3-4 trebs that now will go non stop on walls of the other realms main border keeps and/or ogres etc. With walls down they easily can overwhelm/rush and take for example Overlook. From there they can build siege that completely dominates the under populated realms area of Eternal. I would love to see trebs removed from Eternal due to the small cramped map design
In other border lands siege overall simply favors the over populated/dominate realm. When 1 dominate realm can take over an entire enemy borderland, build multiple siege in every tower, and still run around with numerous omega golems, open field balistas/ACs etc. it just crushes the under populated servers even more. Siege limits need to be smaller, and need to consider all maps at the same time. Fixing population balance will be impossible but you can keep it from being even more of a deciding factor than it is right now
This is a pretty tough nut to crack. Population only tells one small part of the story when it comes to WvW. If 2 servers are equal in population, but 1 server is WvW oriented with dozens of large WvW guilds, and the second server has 3-4 WvW guilds and the rest is PvE players, then the WvW server is going to dominate. While dominating people will use coverage and population as the excuse
As long as WvW is partly designed to bring PvE players into WvW you will never get a realistic look at WvW populations outside of the top 3 servers. If you really want to see what WvW population looks like from server to server, you would have to remove all the PvE type activities/achievements from WvW.
One way this would work (yes I now many will object) is to make WvW gear/level like PvP. Without the concerns of up arrow leveling, gear chasing, crafting etc. you would have WvW players in WvW. The WvW ranks etc. would stay as part of the carrot for playing. Make achievments, etc completely WvW based (killing players, camps etc for daily). Once the carrot is WvW based only, then you could have a more realistic sense of WvW populations
You have all seen it in action. Small group starts with commander tag, wandering WvW and the numbers grow until you have a decent size 50 man zerg rampaging. Commander starts going to objectives, yelling at people to stay together, stack, buff !! charge and BAM…….. softwood tree…….. there goes a chunk of the zerg!. Commander still moving and bam!….. iron node, there goes more of the zerg. By the time the commander hits objective the zerg is spread across half the map. Very sneaky Anet
It is going to make things far far tougher during unbalanced matchups. Lets look at matchup 2 weeks ago. DB, Kain, and YB. These type of matchups happen fairly often. Now on top of a server like DB completely owning all 4 maps, PPT, etc. the bloodlust buff will make every other aspect of WvW almost impossible for the weak servers
One on One, small roaming groups, etc will no longer be viable as they will be at a significant disadvantage fighting equal numbers due to strong server controlling almost all bloodlust zones. Any keep action will be that much harder.
I can see how these bloodlust zones will be a nice addition in T1, maybe T2, but for most other matchups the power creep is going to be brutal. I don’t really have an answer (possibly the outmanned buff could help somehow), but based on past matchups I see a lot of unhappy weeks for several servers
WvW is imploding at an amazing rate, and I have to say that it is very satisfying to watch.
this thread is full of ideas that could make wvw much more enjoyable. will any of it be implemented? no.
Anet has been completely ignoring great wvw ideas since the betas. thumbs up anet we are proud of you!!
+1 (and lol at the name meep)
No way to give -1, needs to be fixed in forums!!. Reading through this thread and responding, and yes I am going to respond to Jscull since we have been back and forth a lot this thread. Js has stated that he has no interest in any part of WvW other then pvp, wont siege, wont defend wont take towers camps etc. and yet at the same time keeps +1 and quoting posts that Anet does nothing for WvW. While we all like different aspects of WvW, if you are unwilling to participate in any part of it, quite possibly the game simply is not for you
DAOC has everything you keep saying you want. You have your power creep, world roaming groups for PvP, no need to siege, zerg etc. As a bonus you also get no skill lag, lots of room so zergs cant find you, no aoe limits, virtually everything you want. Graphics are older of course. So why would you not simply play a game that has everything you want, instead of playing a game that has nothing you want? I just don’t get it
My entire point of starting this convo today was that this end game provides skillful players (an well use that term loosely since it hurts some people’s butts) any end game to further their character development. My entire guild (all 6 of us) logs on, plays wvw only and logs off. When we’re running for our 2-4 hours a night we roam for kills and winning fights we have no business winning. My point is, we want to work towards something (like a fricken rank) that even in the ridiculously far off future gives us some abilities to work towards….
Right now zergers like the updates given by Anet because it 100% caters to your casual play. And yet you’re all the first to write, “Anet wanted wvw to be a platform for everyone” meanwhile we have zero updates geared towards making player vs player content any better…. In an ENTIRE YEAR besides culling (and that was a fix for everyone).
That’s embarrassing as a major gaming company.
I understand your point to a certain extent. I to belong to small guild and most of our WvW is small 2-5 man roaming. The problem I have with power creep is it does not add anything positive. Right now we get ranks, we get skills that can be useful to WvW, we get out nice titles and we can continue to roam, or siege or zerg bust or anything that contributes. What we don’t get is the huge gap in players overall level that every other game gets when you add power creep. I get your point, I really do, but I will take this system of rank rewards over any other game so far.
Ehh, DAOC gave Rank, and Rank gave you more abilities/stats ect ect.
Most fights came more down to class and setup then anything, but even then, if you were really skilled you could stomp over high rank players, and that was something to be proud of.
People who talk about Ranks should not reward players are scared of losing, and they’re usually the first ones to blame Rank and other things when they do lose.
[/quote]
This is the most backwards defense of “give players without lives free power so they don’t lose to less accomplished players with more actual skill and get upset” I’ve ever read.
had to cut and paste from topic as "quote exceeded 5000 letters heh. This is adding to discussion with Jscull
Honestly, I am not trying to be contrary here, but I think we may be having two different discussions here, power creep vs play style. Fighting players, or keeps, or some stupid worm that gives wxp (totally hate that crap) are two different topics and not related to my issue of power creep. Players can choose to look for open field fights or any type of fight. I think ANet can make map improvements for this
Power creep does not change the basics of fights as WvW is designed right now. It would simply mean the gap between the casual, or new, or simply less WvW oriented would grow until these players could no longer compete. Now it may be that is what some players want, but I sure want more people not less joining WvW. Personally I would find it a lot more boring being able to dominate new players because of power creep, but that’s me.
Your opinion is the one that sources from good taste. All others source from cancerous parasites which should be completely ignored. These are people who literally enjoy and prefer gear-based PVP where a player in white gear has a 5% chance of winning a fight against deep orange / purple regardless of skill difference.[/quote]
The problem is you think that Rank = Automatic Win, When in reality it doesn’t always equal that if your game is balanced properly.
Same with adding stats, Again not always a guaranteed win. I know you probably come from WoW and that’s probably the only thing you ever known, but people who’ve actually played other MMOs can tell you that is not always the case.
Warhammer Online and DAOC are perfect examples of that.
Classes and Builds played far more roles in winning fights then Rank ever will in those games.
[/quote]
I agree and disagree at the same time (go figure). Lets take some unrealistic scenarios for the sake of why I disagree with power creep. 2 Identical DAOC groups, equally geared, and equal skill of players. One group is all RR13 and 1 group is all RR8. RR13 wins. I realize this is silly, but we would eventually see these types of gaps if power creep is added to this game. Now lets take the part that makes total sense in what you said. Skilled, coordinated, complementary group designs can beat most even groups and usually quite larger groups.
Most of the other MMO’s have had power creep increase the gap between players to the point that it becomes so unbalanced as to be silly and yes that includes DAOC, warhammer, Rift, Aion, etc. Your skills as PvPer will always be there without power creep. Once again I am not talking WvW design, zerg, siege etc. as those are completely different discussions. My hope is that power creep is never added but does not mean I would not love to see many changes to the existing WvW of this game
kitten character limits
You guys are funny. Guess what there should be a learning curve, and players who have learned not to keyboard turn, spam 2 buttons instead of viewing the scenario and knowing what key is best for that situation, should be rewarded for playing smarter. I didn’t play wow cuz that was carebear as well just not as bad as this. Literally for hardcore players other than kills, there is ZERO reward. The end game is purely what skilled players kill…. We should be able to rank up and make our characters more efficient in player vs player skill…. NONE of us use seige. I will till the day I quit spam AC’s down on Zerg seige. Stop relying on seige to kill… Use your characters abilities….
How about no.
Only trash MMOs reward experienced players with innate power. You shouldn’t need World Rank bonus stats to kill new / casual players. You’re supposed to improve your skill level with time, giving the advantage of being a more experienced player.
Yea Daoc was trash and had a 250k+ population for over 6-7 years…. All paying 15 bucks
A month and the BEST end game of all time for player vs player…. You’re right buddy. Think this game will have 250k players for 6-7 years? Not a kittening chance. Guess what? Zero end game, oh wait, I can hop on a mindless ac and spam 2 buttons for an hour of my RL time…. Lol and carry and pick up more supply…. Useless dude.There is zero end game ranking system in this game.
Maybe go back and look at some of the facts from that era, First, there were no “free to play” options when DAOC was out so every game charged 15 bucks a month, so that is no argument. Credit DAOC with one thing, they were the only company honest enough to post populations, and after the first year they had no where close to 250k subscribers but without being mythic employee, there is no way to confirm
The best argument I love from “skilled players” is that they need to be rewarded more, so they can increase the skill gap and therefore need less skill to win. You want to prove how skilled and uber you are, you should have decrease as you go up in rank, show us how skilled you really are
This games WvW is more about participation then it is about stroking the ego of the 80+ hour a week skilled players. I think they have done a good job with world xp allowing the ego of rank titles without giving abilities that basically stop any new player from joining in
Ehh, DAOC gave Rank, and Rank gave you more abilities/stats ect ect.
Most fights came more down to class and setup then anything, but even then, if you were really skilled you could stomp over high rank players, and that was something to be proud of.
People who talk about Ranks should not reward players are scared of losing, and they’re usually the first ones to blame Rank and other things when they do lose.
Couldn’t agree more. Like I said, anyone who crys about making the game harder just wants ez mode and is afraid of getting their kitten handed to them.
And yet you’re here crying about making the game easier for people who’ve been here longer instead of “harder” or leaving the real power effect in the hands of a players skill. I find irony in this.
If designed right, you would have the same opportunity as I do. How is that unfair?
Reality is not everyone has the same opportunity. Play time being number one, but to many other factors. Outside of T1 almost all match ups are unbalanced so this effects the Wxp people gain, time of day you play etc. Reality is power creep, will always favor those that can play the most and in the most optimum environment. This means the gap simply grows.
Great, my 5 man only runs 2-3 hours a night. We will have less opportunity than most zergers. That’s fine. I want to have at some reason to keep playing besides killing 10-20 mans of bad players who key turn and spam 1-2 keys…. I’d rather there was a reason for more competitive teams to exist. If killing players allowed you to gain levels with more skillful abilities or resistances …. More people would take part in that style of play because it would be valuable. Right now Anet encourages sitting on seige and more casual play. How boring.
This is the part I am having trouble understanding. How is widening the gap in players changing any aspect of WvW as it stands right now? If it is boring killing 10-20 bad players right now, how will you having even more of a gap killing the same bad players more fun? I honestly think I am missing what you are trying to say.
You guys are funny. Guess what there should be a learning curve, and players who have learned not to keyboard turn, spam 2 buttons instead of viewing the scenario and knowing what key is best for that situation, should be rewarded for playing smarter. I didn’t play wow cuz that was carebear as well just not as bad as this. Literally for hardcore players other than kills, there is ZERO reward. The end game is purely what skilled players kill…. We should be able to rank up and make our characters more efficient in player vs player skill…. NONE of us use seige. I will till the day I quit spam AC’s down on Zerg seige. Stop relying on seige to kill… Use your characters abilities….
How about no.
Only trash MMOs reward experienced players with innate power. You shouldn’t need World Rank bonus stats to kill new / casual players. You’re supposed to improve your skill level with time, giving the advantage of being a more experienced player.
Yea Daoc was trash and had a 250k+ population for over 6-7 years…. All paying 15 bucks
A month and the BEST end game of all time for player vs player…. You’re right buddy. Think this game will have 250k players for 6-7 years? Not a kittening chance. Guess what? Zero end game, oh wait, I can hop on a mindless ac and spam 2 buttons for an hour of my RL time…. Lol and carry and pick up more supply…. Useless dude.There is zero end game ranking system in this game.
Maybe go back and look at some of the facts from that era, First, there were no “free to play” options when DAOC was out so every game charged 15 bucks a month, so that is no argument. Credit DAOC with one thing, they were the only company honest enough to post populations, and after the first year they had no where close to 250k subscribers but without being mythic employee, there is no way to confirm
The best argument I love from “skilled players” is that they need to be rewarded more, so they can increase the skill gap and therefore need less skill to win. You want to prove how skilled and uber you are, you should have decrease as you go up in rank, show us how skilled you really are
This games WvW is more about participation then it is about stroking the ego of the 80+ hour a week skilled players. I think they have done a good job with world xp allowing the ego of rank titles without giving abilities that basically stop any new player from joining in
Ehh, DAOC gave Rank, and Rank gave you more abilities/stats ect ect.
Most fights came more down to class and setup then anything, but even then, if you were really skilled you could stomp over high rank players, and that was something to be proud of.
People who talk about Ranks should not reward players are scared of losing, and they’re usually the first ones to blame Rank and other things when they do lose.
Couldn’t agree more. Like I said, anyone who crys about making the game harder just wants ez mode and is afraid of getting their kitten handed to them.
And yet you’re here crying about making the game easier for people who’ve been here longer instead of “harder” or leaving the real power effect in the hands of a players skill. I find irony in this.
If designed right, you would have the same opportunity as I do. How is that unfair?
Reality is not everyone has the same opportunity. Play time being number one, but to many other factors. Outside of T1 almost all match ups are unbalanced so this effects the Wxp people gain, time of day you play etc. Reality is power creep, will always favor those that can play the most and in the most optimum environment. This means the gap simply grows.
had to cut and paste from topic as "quote exceeded 5000 letters heh. This is adding to discussion with Jscull
Honestly, I am not trying to be contrary here, but I think we may be having two different discussions here, power creep vs play style. Fighting players, or keeps, or some stupid worm that gives wxp (totally hate that crap) are two different topics and not related to my issue of power creep. Players can choose to look for open field fights or any type of fight. I think ANet can make map improvements for this
Power creep does not change the basics of fights as WvW is designed right now. It would simply mean the gap between the casual, or new, or simply less WvW oriented would grow until these players could no longer compete. Now it may be that is what some players want, but I sure want more people not less joining WvW. Personally I would find it a lot more boring being able to dominate new players because of power creep, but that’s me.
You guys are funny. Guess what there should be a learning curve, and players who have learned not to keyboard turn, spam 2 buttons instead of viewing the scenario and knowing what key is best for that situation, should be rewarded for playing smarter. I didn’t play wow cuz that was carebear as well just not as bad as this. Literally for hardcore players other than kills, there is ZERO reward. The end game is purely what skilled players kill…. We should be able to rank up and make our characters more efficient in player vs player skill…. NONE of us use seige. I will till the day I quit spam AC’s down on Zerg seige. Stop relying on seige to kill… Use your characters abilities….
How about no.
Only trash MMOs reward experienced players with innate power. You shouldn’t need World Rank bonus stats to kill new / casual players. You’re supposed to improve your skill level with time, giving the advantage of being a more experienced player.
Yea Daoc was trash and had a 250k+ population for over 6-7 years…. All paying 15 bucks
A month and the BEST end game of all time for player vs player…. You’re right buddy. Think this game will have 250k players for 6-7 years? Not a kittening chance. Guess what? Zero end game, oh wait, I can hop on a mindless ac and spam 2 buttons for an hour of my RL time…. Lol and carry and pick up more supply…. Useless dude.There is zero end game ranking system in this game.
Maybe go back and look at some of the facts from that era, First, there were no “free to play” options when DAOC was out so every game charged 15 bucks a month, so that is no argument. Credit DAOC with one thing, they were the only company honest enough to post populations, and after the first year they had no where close to 250k subscribers but without being mythic employee, there is no way to confirm
The best argument I love from “skilled players” is that they need to be rewarded more, so they can increase the skill gap and therefore need less skill to win. You want to prove how skilled and uber you are, you should have decrease as you go up in rank, show us how skilled you really are
This games WvW is more about participation then it is about stroking the ego of the 80+ hour a week skilled players. I think they have done a good job with world xp allowing the ego of rank titles without giving abilities that basically stop any new player from joining in
Ehh, DAOC gave Rank, and Rank gave you more abilities/stats ect ect.
Most fights came more down to class and setup then anything, but even then, if you were really skilled you could stomp over high rank players, and that was something to be proud of.
People who talk about Ranks should not reward players are scared of losing, and they’re usually the first ones to blame Rank and other things when they do lose.
What I was really trying to get at, is this games WvW is more participation oriented then hard core PvP oriented. By not allowing the advantages that rank gave in DAOC they get more participation from a wider player base then other games. Not saying it is right or wrong since that is personal preference kind of thing. I think you can agree (if you played daoc) that a RR13, perfect set up group would stomp anything in its path without even slowing down except an equal group. Personally I hope they never add power creep to WvW rewards
What I don’t understand is why people want the power gap to widen. Right now skilled player groups can and do stomp other groups including much larger numbers based on skill, timing, group set up etc. So why do we need to make it easier? If it is truly about skill, don’t you want to be on an even playing field?
You guys are funny. Guess what there should be a learning curve, and players who have learned not to keyboard turn, spam 2 buttons instead of viewing the scenario and knowing what key is best for that situation, should be rewarded for playing smarter. I didn’t play wow cuz that was carebear as well just not as bad as this. Literally for hardcore players other than kills, there is ZERO reward. The end game is purely what skilled players kill…. We should be able to rank up and make our characters more efficient in player vs player skill…. NONE of us use seige. I will till the day I quit spam AC’s down on Zerg seige. Stop relying on seige to kill… Use your characters abilities….
How about no.
Only trash MMOs reward experienced players with innate power. You shouldn’t need World Rank bonus stats to kill new / casual players. You’re supposed to improve your skill level with time, giving the advantage of being a more experienced player.
Yea Daoc was trash and had a 250k+ population for over 6-7 years…. All paying 15 bucks
A month and the BEST end game of all time for player vs player…. You’re right buddy. Think this game will have 250k players for 6-7 years? Not a kittening chance. Guess what? Zero end game, oh wait, I can hop on a mindless ac and spam 2 buttons for an hour of my RL time…. Lol and carry and pick up more supply…. Useless dude.There is zero end game ranking system in this game.
Maybe go back and look at some of the facts from that era, First, there were no “free to play” options when DAOC was out so every game charged 15 bucks a month, so that is no argument. Credit DAOC with one thing, they were the only company honest enough to post populations, and after the first year they had no where close to 250k subscribers but without being mythic employee, there is no way to confirm
The best argument I love from “skilled players” is that they need to be rewarded more, so they can increase the skill gap and therefore need less skill to win. You want to prove how skilled and uber you are, you should have decrease as you go up in rank, show us how skilled you really are
This games WvW is more about participation then it is about stroking the ego of the 80+ hour a week skilled players. I think they have done a good job with world xp allowing the ego of rank titles without giving abilities that basically stop any new player from joining in
One thing should be mentioned though, it’s not always a bug. Sometimes the keep lord runs out, and pugs repair the wall/door…. trapping their own lord outside.
That would be ok if there were actually holes in the walls/open doors. This case is keep lords and NPCs being pulled out of keeps when there are no walls down or doors opened
Yup, I know. I’ll post again.
One thing should be mentioned though, it’s not always a bug.
it’s not always a bug.
not always
It’s just addition, not subtraction. Don’t misread.
I simply do not understand the reason for you to be so condescending in your response. If you read my original post (let me quote underneath)
“Today I watched server x, pull the keep lord and all NPCs outside of the red team overlook (trying to keep server names out for now) even though all the walls and doors were still up and solid”
Your response had nothing to do with what I was asking, so I simply restated
to quote you “don’t misread”
One thing should be mentioned though, it’s not always a bug. Sometimes the keep lord runs out, and pugs repair the wall/door…. trapping their own lord outside.
That would be ok if there were actually holes in the walls/open doors. This case is keep lords and NPCs being pulled out of keeps when there are no walls down or doors opened
Can’t make a title long enough for the question. Today I watched server x, pull the keep lord and all NPCs outside of the red team overlook (trying to keep server names out for now) even though all the walls and doors were still up and solid. My question to Anet , is this a bug, something that is designed etc.? Would like to know if it is a reportable action as I have now seen it done 2 days in a row this match up
The dragon Brand EA warrior who was soloing around EB Speldon anz area) around 8ish EST time, was curious around the build/gear you were using (if anyone from EA sees this
Thx
Our guild would never count in your definition of “legit 5 man” but we run everyday on average from 2-5 players and occasionally 6/7. We look for the open field fights, will take on groups of up to 15 (yes we die often enough), and take camps, towers and keeps (we have actually 4 manned hills and bay several times), We do not however form the perfect combination of class/specs but simply run with whoever from our guild that happens to be out doing WvW. We have fun and do well enough
WCC of Yaks bend
First I think it depends on what Tier you play in. For T1 I imagine it doesn’t really matter. Second really depends on your guild size. Our guild is usually small group of 2-6/7 at any given time, and we are usually in a T3/T4 match up and the decision mostly depends on where the least unbalanced zerg is.
I think in many cases, PvE oriented players simply prefer pve to any PvP/WvW. Having said that, first impressions of PvP/WvW are all important when new PvE players go out to give WvW a try, and far to often the impression is bad. Most recently is the WvW jumping puzzle for the kite achievement. A PvE player ventures into the JP only to get repeatedly ganked by which ever server has control at the moment
Maybe a new PvE player wanders out to start grabbing vistas etc in WvW only to get crushed by zergs or thieves
I think the key to getting PvE players a good first impression is to have them in a decent WvW group, voice chat, people with the patience to explain what is going on, let them know some decent specs/gear for their class etc. Unfortunatley all to often new players go out on their own and get crushed and never return
I like that they continue to add and diversify the siege aspect of WvW. Of course there are parts I don’t like, parts I do like. It is part of what makes WvW unique, and not just large scale scenario PvP. It is also different from tier to tier which makes it a bit more challenging for the developers
I like it that you focus only “how to fight a thief” and not “how ridiculous the concept of stealth is”. Guess what? My highlight is the latter.
Ok… so you don’t like stealth regardless that you can beat some one using it… yet you chose a game where any class can stealth & leap away… and now are asking for a change to make the game like how YOU want it to be? Wat?
Sorry that I assumed you were asking for ways to fight some one using stealth. I won’t waste any more of my time with this then ^^
Give it up on the absolutely ridiculous argument that any class can stealth nonsense. If you can’t see the difference between having to use a racial ELITE ability once every 3 minutes vs a thief who can stealth any time and as often as the want, then no, you are right no one is listening to you. You also continue to ignore the meat of the thread which is the truly bad stealth mechanics in this game and how it effects “one on one” fights. Unlimited any time stealth is a truly stupid mechanic
It’s not ridiculous, it’s a valid point. Sorry if you don’t like it… but it’s a part of the game.
People are complaining that a thief can escape a fight. With that eliete you can escape a fight by stealthing and leaping. Thieves give up other things to be able to disengage easily.
Other classes don’t give up the same things… and can still disengage easily at the cost of an eliete. With it every 3 mins you can stealth and leap every 10s for 30s. I think that’s fair. I don’t see what the cooldown really has to do with it… unless it’s that a thief can do it more often? How often are you really needing to escape? Heck I usually don’t even need stealth to escape on my other classes…
If they are perma stealthing they aren’t hurting you… so what the kitten is it really doing? It’s not any time stealth btw… there is this revealed debuff which prevents that.
Of course it is a silly argument. If you take one aspect of an overall discussion and twist it to make a point. Everyone can have access to stealth therefore stealth is equal for all is foolish.
If we want to use that logic lets take one of your earlier statements
“The thief can disengage when they want to… but that’s part of the class design. In fact… they NEED to disengage and re-engage frequently. They lack staying power”
Well any thief has access to the same toughness gear that all classes do, can be totally bunker for survivability, therefore they don’t need stealth or “need” to disengage therefore we are all equal
Of course what I said is a stupid argument. Go back to the beginning of the thread, read why I disagree with stealth overall (in all games). I realize you wont agree with me which is fine but at least my argument looked at more then 1 situation to argue over
I like it that you focus only “how to fight a thief” and not “how ridiculous the concept of stealth is”. Guess what? My highlight is the latter.
Ok… so you don’t like stealth regardless that you can beat some one using it… yet you chose a game where any class can stealth & leap away… and now are asking for a change to make the game like how YOU want it to be? Wat?
Sorry that I assumed you were asking for ways to fight some one using stealth. I won’t waste any more of my time with this then ^^
Give it up on the absolutely ridiculous argument that any class can stealth nonsense. If you can’t see the difference between having to use a racial ELITE ability once every 3 minutes vs a thief who can stealth any time and as often as the want, then no, you are right no one is listening to you. You also continue to ignore the meat of the thread which is the truly bad stealth mechanics in this game and how it effects “one on one” fights. Unlimited any time stealth is a truly stupid mechanic
Every single class can stealth.
I have honestly never seen say a Warrior or Guardian user their stealth skills.
But I guess you proved me wrong, every class can stealth.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Become_the_Snow_Leopard
Yup. They can.
You are really grasping here.
Ok, my Human/Asura/Sylvarri/Charr Warrior and Guardian do not have native access to stealth…and don’t try to throw the karma item from the Charr noob zone as an example – it isn’t the same mechanic.It’s not grasping at all. I just proved to you that any class can stealth.
…and apparently it’s the fault of the game that you didn’t choose a norn to be able to stealth yourself, won’t learn how to counter a thief, won’t stop running full zerk, don’t run with other people, don’t use a roaming set up… and thus thieves/stealth need a nerf?
Sillyness.
weak arguments like this is the silly part. generalizations and assumptions. Judging by your signature, Mesmer/thief….. stealth, I am guessing there is nothing that would sway your opinion, fortunately we can sift through others responses
All they would really be able to do is supply server numbers. WvW numbers change every minute based on participation by players.
In response to Xenon. Just to clarify a bit I don’t have trouble surviving normal game play, multiple mobs, WvW etc. My guardian is quite tough and while I am only an average player, I am not to bad when it comes to dodging, using my abilities etc.
I am talking mechanics like southsun and a dozen plus verteran karkas spawn. You can not dodge a dozen veteran karkas, nor the bouncing electrical strike of a dozen veteran (dam if I can remember the name, the floating mobs)
I have been hit for 24k by the veteran chicken in cursed shore in 1 shot. That’s 1700 toughness and 19,000 health (a lot of health for a guardian) by a mob that doesn’t even show due to culling. These are the type of mechanics I am talking about
I use a pretty standard 0,5,30,30,5 build, exotics and all ascended jewelery
I have been trying to think through why I do not enjoy dungeons, world events, boss fights etc. in this game like I always have in past games. In the end best I can figure out is the base mechanics around bosses, events etc. The mechanic of “you will die simply run back” type of design. I will try to explain through various examples best I can
Lets look at the recent Southsun month of events. The non stop little fights with waves of mobs (good idea and fun in many ways). I play a mostly bunker build guardian, 1700 tough, 19,000 health. If I was to fight a veteran karka, I could dodge once or twice, use retribution once and can survive a bit until the players kill it. What actually happens is 10+ veterans pop in the wave of mobs and if you are targeted, instant dead, simply no option. If you play a melee and the veterans charge, instant dead, no option. Knocked down by the veterans, instant dead, no options. If you are up front when the mobs spawn, instant dead, no option and with culling you will likely die without even seeing the mobs that attack you
Cursed shores events. Pretty similar but with some extra twists. First the events do not scale here to the amount of people and you will often get far more veteran etc then the players there can handle. Then you get the extra option of things like the champion chicken who will kill anyone in the area doing 24k + damage before you even realize it has spawned, Massive damage in 1 second is death for the sake of death
Recently I happened to be in the zone and joined in to fight the boss in front of Arah (sorry name eludes me). Fight was going along fine, occasional dead player, usually quickly rezzed, until the boss got to 10% health. At 10% the boss instantly killed anyone that was in melee range, boom half the group dead, then proceeded to one by one pick a player, and that player died to his various attacks, no chance to escape. Basic design, have enough players to rez around unpreventable deaths
Recent guild bounty hunt. One of the mobs was the boss where you go around click on suspicious rats to uncover him. I happened to be the one, clicked on suspicious rat, boss pops with his rats, instantly dead. No choice, the guild had to spread out looking for him, and there is no way to know what rat will spawn the boss, so basic design is, click on rat, die, run back
It is this basic mechanic of “die and run back” that has left me frustrated. I realize there is not much of a death penalty etc. but truth is I hate dying, and I hate dying way more when it is instant and unavoidable
Overall this is just a vent, but I do find myself simply not wanting to do any event in the game anymore
If you don’t think d/p thieves are overpowered in the roaming game, you don’t have any business telling people what is or isn’t overpowered.
Perhaps you should enlighten the unenlightened. Are you referring to stealth?.. if so maybe explain how that is overpowered for roamers.
I’ll give my view on why I think stealth is over powered
Stealth means the player always gets to choose the fight, the optimum time, and has the most advantage at the start…. always. Stealth means the player can always open with the optimal damage and with some of the insane dps can often win the fight in first 2-3 seconds. Stealth means if something does go wrong they simply stealth away, no consequence unlike every other class. Stealth causes the opposing player to loose target and have to reaquire which is a huge advantage (not just thieves in this case).
Being able to stealth off not just your opponent, but mobs, doors, walls etc. is beyond stupid OP
Now combine the ridiculous advantage that stealth gives, combined with the multitude of other abilities thieves have, and stealth in this game is so poorly designed, it is really beyond words
But lets face it. No class will ever admit to being OP, and there is no way for ANet to make a real change without rebuilding the class, so we are stuck with it
I think it’s a valid complaint. A level 80 zone should reward level 80 armor.
This
Especially now, considering the difficulty of some temple areas to complete and lack of people in the zone to help
Without knowing what play style you actually like (melee, ranged etc.) and adding in the “less played zerg class” I would recommend Necro. Tons of AOE and can be all ranged (900-1200 on virtually everything) Can add a certain amount of control from slows, to fears, especially areas like enemy zerg entering through open door. Epidemic allows you to take advantage of conditions from your zerg mates and spread their dps around. You can kitten people off on walls LOL.
The ability to drop well of corruption on the nasty guardian/eles leading the enemy zergball charge and watch them melt is entertaining. The new torment is very effective from necro. Get massive amounts of conditions on yourself then simply transfer back to the enemy and hit epidemic is quite fun.
And as part of your original post, necros are still one of the least played classes in WvW
Downside. You have a hard time doing any actual damage to enemy siege, walls doors etc. If you get caught running back to your zerg solo and get attacked, you will likely die except to bad players/up arrows
Having said that all classes are pretty useful in a zerg and can add good things
I thought this was removed from the game several patches ago, but yesterday in SM, myself and a couple guildies watched a thief constantly stealth from hitting walls, and doors in SM. This been added back into game?
While it is always nice to get new additions to the game, having new map(s) would be good if it was something significantly different. There have been tons of suggestions from, much larger maps, to different objectives, and so on. A new map that follows the same design as existing maps would not really add anything to the game. What I would LOVE to see, is a post from ANet team saying something along the lines of "We are in the process of getting ready to design and create a new WvW map, and for the next “x” period of time please respond to the following thread with wants/suggestions"
Based on some of your responses I would say necro fits you better. The build you choose becomes important. I use a condition necro now when in WvW. The aoe and range is great for zerg vs zerg, you can place some very strategic marks/wells, survivability is very good, the new torment is handy when you are in the middle of enemy. One of my favorites however is dropping well of corruption on those guardians/eles who are charging in to break up your zerg, and watching them melt.
truthfully either toon will work fine, just need to spec for what your play type is going to be
On a side note, health, toughness and tons of aoe makes those pesty thieves look for easier targets (not one on one but the thieves that sneak in for the quick kill in zerg fights)
All open field siege is lame regardless of which server is doing it.
I am curious as to why? Not saying yes or no to it, more interested in views on this. Siege is a part of the game, curious as to why it seems lame to use it. For me personally the only lame siege in the game is sieging from keep to keep and that is (my opinion) simply horrible game design, and totally understandable that people use it
Further testing and it seems the basic design is working, it is simply different mechanic then I thought. If mob ticks for 100 damage standing still, it still ticks for 100 damage moving, the ticks just happen twice as fast (harder to tell then seeing numbers go up with movement)
The tool tip description however remains incorrect. On my necro during latest test the tool tip says 4714 damage to stationary, and 4714 to moving targets. Guessing it should show the increased damage to moving target
Tried out the new torment on my necro several times on mobs in cursed shore. My understanding is if the mob moves it does more damage then standing still. The spell description however says(for me) 3471 damage standing still, 3471 damage moving. When I cast it on mobs the dps is 90 per tick no matter if mobs move or stand still
So the patch notes say one thing, in game tool tip says another. Not sure which is supposed to be correct, but at any rate my dps ticks are the same moving or stationary
I am talking a WvW expansion that I would pay for like any expansion pack. Purely WvW oriented. I understand Anet’s approach to their PvE/WvW as it is, and the expansion would be for those more WvW oriented.
Must Haves
Maps that are tremendously larger then the existing maps
No sieging from keep to keep etc.
No mobs/PvE events, strictly WvW oriented
Add new objectives to fill the larger zones, such as portal spots to control, siege areas that can be built up and defended ( I am sure the community can come with tons of WvW related objectives)
Possibly new ways to effect world XP earned such as … If you own more towers you earn more WXP when you kill players, make people want to defend a bit more
Guild color on the maps (guildies show up as purple dots as an example
larger groups then the existing 5 man
Owning a keep for prolonged time would give guilds rewards (influence etc) at the very least more then it gives right now
ALL damage taken/done to show in combat log
Wants
Ability to open guild window and right click on players name to invite to group when in WvW (drives me nuts that the only option once in WvW is “report”
Better reporting options for the hacker/cheaters
Would like to open map and see which Towers/keeps are owned by which Guilds
Guards to be tougher (not a fan that a solo player can pretty easily take an entire camp)
Speed as a WvW XP reward option (with a reasonable limit)
Really just a thought. All the existing WvW maps would still be there and can continue for those that like the model. Of course could be that all the existing WvW players love it as it is and think I am crazy, but I would still pay dollars for the above heh
(edited by deracs.1762)
While I agree overall that this match up has been pretty good compared to most other match ups, today (fri) shows a fundamental issue outside of T1 and maybe T2. The issue of servers matching up by numbers and time zones. CD, Yaks, and kain are fun, decent match up but for a majority of the day the prime times for each server does not match. This leaves very short windows of time where the servers have equal type numbers fighting at the same time
All week the numbers have remained close as our various servers dominated our prime times. Now at Friday, Kain dominated early morning EST and now CD, but there will be no chance for Yaks or Kain later in the day to combat the final push. Not a horrible thing, but how much nicer would it be if the servers matched by time zone and could really battle on equal grounds at equal times. Tough call I know. Having said that, this past 2 weeks has been the most fun I have had in the last 3 months, and would be more then happy to have a couple more weeks of this match up
Since the June 4th patch, Southsun on Yak’s bend server has been extremely laggy and disconnects like crazy. For me personally the disconnect codes I have been getting are the following
1022:5:1:872:101
7:11:3:191:101
The lag has been extreme at times and comes during big events, small events, overflow, no overflow, simply just always there. It is happening with most of my guildies which are spread out from east to west coast U.S. and Canada, so no particular area or ISP.
Before June 4th patch I had no issues, and have no issues in any other zone. Even huge WvW fights don’t have anywhere near the lag that is Southsun right now. Map chat seems to suggest many people having the lag and disconnect issues
This by design or glitch, doesn’t seem to make much sense as a reward for month long event. the new weapons and armor are exotic but only have major sigils and runes
Map size is limited by the engine I hear, but they could still add more maps. Currently we have 2.
I really hope this is not the case. I am hoping that some day they will add a new map, 1 that is large, spread out no siege from keep to keep , a chance to break up the zerg, give smaller roaming groups something to do, and see how popular it is or is not. I realize there is no significant change they can make to the existing maps
I see a lot of discussion around love zerg/hate zerg, love AC/hate AC’s etc. I think the game has a lot of great options for WvW but for me the biggest issue is the small map sizes. A lot of issues such as population imbalance etc. is a hard nut to crack, as it is very different from tier to tier. Being stuck in T3 for the last 3 months I can only talk to the issue there.
90% of our fights in T3 is Player vs door. take an empty keep, camp etc. About 8% are actual fights where one side out numbers the other by so much as to make it pointless. Maybe 2% of the time we have an actual fight where numbers are somewhat even
With the small maps it is far to easy to take the zerg and run to any issue, siege from 1 keep into several others etc. Even if the outmanned side wants to be effective, the other side can simply get there to fast. A zone like EB is even worse. Greater numbers take overlook, and from there can set up siege to hit half our towers, completely siege up the entrance so you can’t even leave the start zone except through 1 bottle neck
Take the same amount of keeps etc, spread out the map so one or 2 zergs can not control an entire zone within 20 seconds and you will have to break up the zerg somewhat, get more roaming groups, allow some smaller fights, and make the WvW more then taking empty towers for world XP
I like the overall design so far of WvW in this game, I simply think the small maps negate a great deal of the good aspects
fixed after small patch last night (may 28 around 9ish) and now broken again so the only siege that can be dropped is golems as of 8:30 est am may 29 yaks bend server ( I am assuming all servers from the post)
I realize that there are many fluid situations from tier to tier, time of day, server balance etc. and it is hard to have a 1 stop solution to meet them all, but today T3 in EB, I got sense of what the new AC design is trying to do
Yaks Bend Overlook and under attack for kaineng. Our keep was decently sieged up and as is usual in the morning we were significantly outmanned by kaineng (no where near as bad as it was with DB). They start attacking our overlook and get through the outer in fairly quick order. Now at first they ran up the ramp to our gate with Golems and rams. At this point our AC’s did a good job of killing the golem and rams, and some players. In the past we simply would have lost overlook fast simply based on numbers
Kaineng being good players regrouped and proceeded to systematically go around the keep, spread out and their engineers and ele’s destroyed all siege on the walls. Yes we killed some while they did this, and yes it took them time to do it. Once they cleared the walls they needed, they set up catapults, knocked down the wall. Instead of charging the lord and dying to remaining ACs they charged up the walls, cleared remaining ACs, then took the keep
So what did the new ACs do. They slowed the normal zerg 2 minute take of a keep, made kaineng do more then overwhelm doors and added some needed strategy to taking keeps vs simple numbers. If it was even numbers or even close we likely would have driven them off which I think should happen. As is we slowed them down but yes they were able to overcome the new UBER ac’s
I still think the ACs need some adjustment, but I can see a sense of what Anet is trying to do
Exact same problem. Eternal BG, yaks bend server, 10 a.m. may 1. about 50% of the time when I get on an arrowcart, I get on, targeting works fine, but then can not actualy shoot, 1,2, and 3 buttons do nothing, and when you hot F to release from arrow cart you get a message “can not drop bundles while in the air” at this point you have to log your character off to esacape the AC
I wish this wasn’t the reality of the situation.
This is one of the reasons why tiers become imbalanced,
People on the losing servers just resign themselves to a loss and don’t even bother trying.Then the first place servers wins by a more inflated margin every week because the other servers don’t put out their full forces ever, and less over time.
This. Dragonbrand was able to close a 50+k gap on BP and SoS after being trounced for most of the week in our respective matchups. Maguuma was able to edge out 1st place out of nowhere, if I recall correctly, against us in the lower tiers. Yes, coverage plays a factor, but ultimately it comes down to how much people want it. We could’ve easily “given up” while we were behind.
We never stopped trying against KN, TC and FA during their visits in T3 – our numbers were just not enough, but we were out in force all the time.
Guess some servers are just cut from a different cloth.
Perspective is always an interesting thing. YB has now been stuck in T3 for almost 2 months. During this time we early on fought back from being distant 3rd to SoS to beating them. We have fought back from being distant 3rd to mag to at least closing the gap. During all this time we have faced a server in DB where we had zero chance of ever competing for the weekly score. For 2 months we have fought through this, and during our prime time, done what we can and even now with DBs new guilds, we fight. I would love to see what DBs reaction really would have been if faced with 2 months of no real chance. No way to really tell, but I am pretty kitten proud of YB showing up for 2 months when there was no chance overall