I agree with Fraust on almost everything he says.
That being said, there is one point I disagree with him and believe that a change in this aspect of the game wouldnt have any negative impact at all: the token system.
I don’t think there is a reason for specific tokens being the only currency for specific dungeon gear. They could have made it many different ways that would make the goal less repetitive and interesting.
For example, instead of tokens, the npcs would “craft” you that piece of gear for a combination of 2, maybe 3 items. One of them you would have to get from that specific dungeon, the others from the outside world. Quantities on each of those items would be where they would balance the system to make it interesting without removing completely the need to visit that specific dungeon. Its more like what we have on GW1 right now.
Now, about gear progression, I’m completely against it for reasons I’m tired to explain. It promotes elitism and give people ways to preemptively measure others capacities just by previously acomplishments, in this case, gear, which leads to many other problems. This kind of thing never had place in Guild Wars 1 and I doubt it will ever have it here as well.
As I said above, Robot, introducing gear trademills to the game wouldn’t affect only those who want them. It would affect everyone.
Right now, people having the best looks means nothing regards to character power in stats. With better gear being introduced for harder dungeons, a seasoned level 80 will be miles ahead of a fresh one and that gap will just bring to this game all the problems we saw on many others.
Aesthetics is what people will have to work for, in GW2. I’m not against a better solution for skins grinding than what we have now, but as soon as they bring stronger level 80 equipments that are harder to acquire, people will start being elitist about what they got and with whom they play with, and suddently, we will have the exact mentality that was never intended to be part of any Guild Wars game.
Guild Wars is all about equality. You can grind your eye off for vanity items but that is as far as you will always go as things to grind for, because grinding for power will never be part of this game besides leveling up. It is the playstyle model chosen for this game as well as Guild Wars 1 and it worked pretty well.
What I don’t get is, with so many games out there with the reward-centric “end game”, why can’t people like me, who don’t like this playstyle, can’t have a game to enjoy?
I’ve raided in WoW for many years after the best top tiered gear. Never found it fun at all and only did it so I could keep playing with my guild and friends… Here I can do whatever I want, and still be able to do any content available in the game with them if I want. Gear won’t stop me, at least not for anything more than a very small amount of time. Skill will always be the only limiting factor, and I’m ok with it.
I don’t understand the whole we don’t want it argument.
If it’s players, how is it affecting you negatively, esp. if the gear is confined to the PvE realm?
If it’s the devs, how does this ruin your game precisely other than not fitting into your philosophy (which is a guiding principal, not a mandate)?
In terms of the actual treadmill part, does it have to follow the “oh I gotta do Dungeon A and gear in it to be able to do Dungeon B and so on….” or is there another way?
Say you have an “elite path” in each dungeon with the reward being a specialized token at the end; this path is real tough and requires players to really understand the game mechanics, their class, and the synergies with other classes. You need X of these tokens to get the top tier gear… but unlike the other dungeon sets, it’s all scattered about so you have to go to all sorts of different dungeons to make up the full set. Does it have to be token-based? No, whatever might work best, I just used it as an example because it’s familiar. The entry requirement for “elite path”? Nothing more than what it takes to get into the explorable mode for that dungeon… if you and your group have the skill and determination, you can get it.
Well I think that the biggest problem with gear treadmill systems is that they create a gap between players, and there is nothing besides time to close this gap.
So after some time with a gear treadmill system up, we will start seeing LFG calls asking for people with a minimum of a full set of tier 2 armor, because people will always want to finish whatever they are trying to do as fast as they could, and now, with a gear treadmill installed, they can, effectively measure some of the players capacity for participation on their group.
But do the rewards have to be skins? Why is design philosophy being confused as fiat that must be strictly followed? I know what the developers said, but that doesn’t mean what they said is necessarily right.
You have infrastructure in place for this game that balances characters… I see no reason why you can’t have sweet items that are hard to get and have awesome stats. Why do I see no reason? Because if it’s PvE, why does it matter what someone else has? If it’s WvW, you have balancing mechanics… so you can just balance the stats to only give exotic-equivalent stats. The PvE skilled keep their epicness in the PvE realm while the PvP/WvW skilled keep their awesomeness through skill alone in the PvP realms.
Win?
Just because gear treadmill is not something they want in their game. Is it really that hard to understand?
They don’t want it and there are MANY who like the game that way.
People don’t play ONLY for rewards. It has to be fun with the rewards. Look at Borderlands. The game itself is fun for a while, but imagine playing it with only 1 set of guns? Not so fun anymore. The fact that at any time you can find a bigger and better gun makes everything you do in that game MORE fun. They NAILED it completely and have the sales to prove it. Obviously Borderlands isn’t GW2, but the reward system is top notch. They “get it”.
I personally would never run any dungeon more than a handful of times, but I especially won’t do it if the reward is just a different skin. No way. And lots of people think like me. Probably most. If Anet just wants people to play for a month or two then leave until the next expansion, the got their wish, because that’s what basically is happening.
I agree with you on the “lots of people think like me”, but not on the “Probably most”.
The rewards here are skins and will ever be skins. If it isn’t enough for you, I’m sorry to say that it won’t change. This is their concept for a gameplay model. They know they will never be able to please everyone.
Hate to be blunt about it. If there is no reward in what you are doing, then why do it in the first place? I know that what I just stated might be considered selfish, but honestly, the human race generally is selfish.
People who are quit willing to state they refuse to do things that don’t reward them, then spend their time playing games are strange.
Shouldn’t you be working or getting an education? Something that rewards you?
Because a lot of people actually like the game but recognize that there are much needed changes? Lets stop being ridiculous… i think the motive is quite obvious and people complain because they would like some change.
I can already see the reply to this…
“This is GW2 not wow…If you want to play wow go play it…”
This isnt wow, this isnt swtor, this isnt aoc, aion, L1, l2, UO etc etc… SO WHAT. Arenanet went after the big market. To make money! They made changes and GW2 is much diff compared to GW1 in order to draw in new players. So they need to take into account changes and listen to the other playerbase. Doesn’t matter if its how you want the game to be… Its the demand of the customer and there are lot more than just ex g1 players here.
They obviously aren’t going to scrap it and copy wow but they are going to do what works and keeps customers. Right now a lot of customers are bored and not happy with end game.
In addition, the release has been horrible. If beta was done to fix issues/bugs etc….i would have hated to play in beta. I’m not even talking about Orr and this has got to be the most bugged out release i have played in years! I almost miss subscription based MMO’s because keeping customer subscriptions at least gives the devs quite a bit more incentive to expedite important issues.
Even the non loot focused players are tired of class imbalances and end game content. The speed in which they are responding to important issues is very slow. They obviously rushed an unfinished product to beat out the wow expansion.
They knew they were releasing a broken product and since they don’t have subscriptions its all about initial cost. Smart but shady imo.
Show me one flawless mmo launch, just one… Actually, better yet, give me one 5+ years old mmo without class imbalance and bugs…
The reason GW2 is so different from GW1 is that they never wanted both to compete against each other. GW2 is also a game bound to break well estabilished concepts, but obviously it won’t ever happen for everyone. There will always be people unhappy about this game and they won’t ever be able to completely fix this.
Also, if you read more closely the posts of many many supporters of the gw2 playstyle, you will see that a lot of them never played GW1.
Better get your facts straight…
24/7 accessible WvWvW that isn’t locked behind long queue’s.
I’d very much LOVE this… ^^
Well, if a lively playerbase is not enough metrics to define success, I’m curious to know what do you think would be
Continued developer support in the form of new content and items.
Well, then I’m happy to say that you just proved my point, and here is why: Guild Wars Beyond
Google for it, if you may, and after you discover what it is all about, bear in mind that it is just part of all the support the GW team is always dedicating to the game.
They never stopped supporting or adding new content to that game. And that, by your own definition, makes that game successful.
With gw2 they obviously tried to reach out to a broader audience and failed so far at keeping those.
How do you know they failed at keeping them? What data do you have access to that the rest of us do not?
No hard data back up, take it with a grain of salt, but just looking around the forums, guild, general chat, friends list, etc will give you a pretty good idea.
I see many more people ingame, playing and having fun than I see unhappy people posting on the forums.
These days, forums are used mostly as a venting tool for those who aren’t happy. You can’t really gather your numbers only based on posts here.
I’m completely happy with the game and the only reason I’m here, posting, is because I’m at work, with nothing to do. If I was home, I’d be playing, not posting.
But remember, just as many people left the game/stopped playing without saying anything. Many of my friends that has already stopped playing never posted or even read the forums. We won’t ever have hard data on how many people is actually still playing because of the nature of no subs, and also the fact that companies rarely advertise the sub numbers unless they’re ridiculously good.
Don’t lie though, everyone knows at least a couple of people that came to play with them in this game, or met in the game, that has already stopped playing.
Don’t take me as a liar, because I’m not, but I can say to you that none of my 130 members guild stopped playing so far. Not a single person.
There are those who are not 100% happy, but until now, noone saw enough reasons to stop playing and go back to whatever game they were playing before GW2.
Every single one of my RL friends who came here with me is completely addicted to the game, most of them with already one 80 with full exotics and a couple alts being played.
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Hate to be blunt about it. If there is no reward in what you are doing, then why do it in the first place? I know that what I just stated might be considered selfish, but honestly, the human race generally is selfish.
If this is a question for you, then you will never understand Guild Wars concept, ever. And, sadly, this game won’t ever be enough for you.
With gw2 they obviously tried to reach out to a broader audience and failed so far at keeping those.
How do you know they failed at keeping them? What data do you have access to that the rest of us do not?
No hard data back up, take it with a grain of salt, but just looking around the forums, guild, general chat, friends list, etc will give you a pretty good idea.
I see many more people ingame, playing and having fun as I see unhappy ones, posting on the forums.
These days, forums are used mostly as a venting tool for those who aren’t happy. You can’t really gather your numbers only based on posts here.
I’m completely happy with the game and the only reason I’m here, posting, is because I’m at work, with nothing to do. If I was home, I’d be playing, not posting.
Well, if a lively playerbase is not enough metrics to define success, I’m curious to know what do you think would be
The reason for the traditional “end game” is to keep players playing it. It all boils down to money. The companies that make these games need to make money to keep making games (or tending to their current games). Without anythign to strive for at the so called “end” of a game (which in all honesty should be refered to has the beginning of the game) the game slowly fizzles and dies. Thats why noone has even came close to competeing with wow as far as subscribers and overall gross income.
In standard business you normally copy business plans that are succesful, not completely contradict them.
GW2 has some nice concepts but they were poorly executed. Its like you beat the game the day you bought it in a sense. You claim that endgame is map completion but thats kinda a** backwards because im already 50% complete by the time I hit 80.
Without and “endgame” and without appealing to the mass consumer base this game is on a road to failure like most other mmos.
Then explain how GW1 has been going strong for 7 years without any power progression beyond lvl 20 / Droks gear.
All those tinfoil hat theories fall flat on their face when meeting reality.GW2 is not required to lock players into itself being a B2P game.
It’s like saying Skyrim fails because there is nothing glueing you to the game forever and thus people won’t buy Dawnguard and further expansions.I think people believe that since GW2 allows for multiplayer content like a MMO then it must face the issues that other MMOs meet – even though the game is still a B2P format and caters to a different audience than them – the classic B2P audience that completes a game and then waits for expansions to play again – or replay the game in different ways.
I’m just curious to see for how much time people is going to drag this misconception before they understand this.
Just because the game still exists doesnt mean that it is succesful. Most every mmo thats ever been made still has a player base of some type.
And also ask yourself this… Why hasnt there been any upgrades or expansions in the last 7 years? probably because it wasnt profitable enough to validate one i would assume.
You mean 5 years, right? EotN launched in 2007. And I can say that GW1 is pretty much full of people these days. Everytime I log, every social hub is crowded. Guess it says a lot for the longevity of that game, even without any gear treadmil and “end game”
The problem with stat progression through gear treadmill is that they will have to make content scale with the gear and thus, blocking those without top gear from it. This is not what they want to happen here, and judging how it never ever happened on Guild Wars 1, I strongly doubt it will ever happen here.
I’m sure there are ways to give the sense of acomplishment to people without resorting to treadmills. If there aren’t, well, then I don’t think this game will ever catter to this kind of playstyle.
WvW leveling system that gives Ranks that can be displayed so im more than an invader or defender. Also more variety of gear for badges, both in sytle and stat attachments.
That would be great… But it would be even better if they make it so better ranks were not only a matter of time but skills… Like the old rank system in WoW, where you had to be constantly proving yourself in comparison with others to keep your rank. With no gear treadmill attached to this system, it could be really fun!
What I would really like to change is the waypoint fees. I wish they tie the costs to the level of the zone, so low level zones would have a lower base price. This way I could bring my higher level char to party with my low level friends, help them with their quests, hearts, just for the fun of it, without getting broke on the process.
If they ever do this, I’ll be able to have my fun doing the whole world content without having to worry about things that only high level zones can give me: level appropriate money to pay for my level appropriate expenses.
Every MMO from 2005-2015:
New MMO Announcment: “OMG! They’re making an MMO about (theme)! This is going to be the best MMO EVER!”
First Beta: “(MMO) is so awesome! It’s so much better than anything I’ve played in years!”
Last Beta: Mix of “(MMO) is so awesome! I can’t wait for the public release!” and “I thought (MMO) would be good but the graphics/abilities/quests don’t live up to the hype.” Fanboy/troll arguments begin.
One week after release: “(MMO) could have been great, but they didn’t fix the problems it had in beta and now X, Y, and Z are broken. The game is full of bots and noobs, I got to end level and now I’m bored…” Declarations of utter failure begin.
One month after release: “OMG! They’re making an MMO about (theme)! That is going to be the best MMO EVER!” Quitter threads outnumber praise threads.
That made me laugh… Exactly my point on my last post.
Non reward-centric games can work, they just seem to catter to a different kind of player. The most fun I ever had on a MMO was back in 98, playing UO. No other game ever came close to it so far. And UO was a completely reward-free sandbox enviroment.
UO was a great game but it WAS reward-centric! You gotta be kidding me. Economy was great…treasure hunting for great gear that was highly sought after… housing and real estate was nuts…just to name a few.
People have to get off this idea that “wow ruined MMo’s” lol… WoW didnt ruin mmo’s they just made a very very successful one. People were reward focused “chasing the carrot” WAAAAY before wow.
One simple question.
Would people have played 100’s of hours on zelda and any of the final fantasy series if it weren’t for the loot? if it weren’t for the character progression/development?
YES!!!! but it wouldnt have been NEARLY as successful. Add rewards….add loot. Boom. you have a hit.
Its not evil. Its fun. Is that just my opinion? Yup. But its shared by more of the customer base than not.
How exactly UO was reward-centric? I didn’t follow you on this one. Maybe you are talking about the UO as it is now, after so many patches? I know they changed a lot, but I’m talking about what UO was back in 97, 98, when loot meant nothing. The best weapon in the game could only give you +6 to dmg and you could lose it anytime, anywhere.
People walked the streets in rags, with minimal gear and reagents… Not sure what you mean by UO being reward-centric.
Also, about offline RPG games, I do play them for the fun of playing, else I would never be any fan of any AD&D game series other than NWN (which is very reward-centric).
Actually the market do not allow them to be. They just feel that way.
MMO gamers have grown so demanding that the only thing left for them is to jump between new releases, drying out their content in 2 weeks, demanding new things to do for another 2, and then leaving for the next game. No game can provide everything this kind of players want, on the timeframe they want.
It’s easy to see that. Just follow the forums of any new release and you will see the same people you saw a couple months ago, on another game. They play for 1, maybe 2 months, get tired, complain, complain, leave and do exactly the same on some other game.
Even better, start watching some youtube channels and you will see what I’m talking about.
So, in the end, what would be better for a company running a game? Try to catter the ever demanding comunity with a very big chance of failing miserably because their demands are bigger and bigger every passing year, or try to catter your faithful customers, those you know already like your product and will do their best to support it?
GW1 was a very successful niche game. Still up and running. Why can’t GW2 be successful with the same mindset?
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I remember well when some individuals with a lot of time started to climb the ranks way ahead of others and completely dominated the small skirmishes over the frontier maps. Also, when they introduced the realm ranks, there were many ways to exploit the system and parties start to trade kills for huge RR exp over a small amount of time. Those high ranked parties completely decimated every other group trying to fight them. That is what happens when rewards play a bigger role than they are supposed to.
I really hope they don’t introduce any artificial gap like that here. The only gap we should have here is player skill.
Now, I’m all up for RvR/PvP titles.
When the game launched, RRs were only for titles shown to enemies. There were no realm skills… They were introduced almost a year after launch.
Yeah, so one year out of the many years that players populated the lands of Camelot, there were no RRs. My point still stands.
As so mine. Because today people can’t stand a month without a constant flow of rewards.
Thousands of players RvR’d on DAoC for years without ANY reward at all, other than the sheer satisfaction of seeing their realm beating their enemies. It was when they introduced rewards that affected the pvp gameplay that everything started to fall.
Wrong. DAoC offered Realm Points, Realm Ranks, Realm abilities as motivation for RvR. Nothing more fun than striving for the next RR. Players enjoyed this type of gameplay for many years. So don’t act like there wasn’t a reward because there was, and it was huge.
When the game launched, RRs were only for titles shown to enemies. There were no realm skills… They were introduced almost a year after launch.
Well for starters, there are WAY more than 6 stat combinations in game and just 6 karma exotic sets. Something would stay out, inevitably.
But yes, I agree, they could just add different versions of the same armor, for the same price, on the same vendors, but I do believe they kept some combinations off on purpose, probably because they felt those were stronger overall.
My problem with combos is that they don’t seem balanced against themselves.
Condition removals, Might, Healing and Blindness are very good ones.
And the whirl bolts are very lackluster. They should be way more powerfull to justify positioning and setting up for them and after that, having to deal with their completly chaotic nature.
@RebelYell – “I know how field works. Fields don’t make champions not two-shot you.”
Actually, smoke and dark fields do… Sorry to burst your bubble =)
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If you see a lot of people using CC to render your DS useless, try to think smart and start doing the same with them….
Start entering DS to make them waste their CC on you… This can be done both ways. Think of it as the GW2 version of the WoW’s fake casting
agree with that, DS is a tool that most ppl use and think it’s for keep them selves a live but it’s not.. you can use it to get stacks of might, add bleeds, CC with fear or even just interrupt a cast, add weakness…
i’m sure there are more uses i didnt mention…
Heck, sometimes I even use it just for the gap closer for my dagger/dagger build ^^
People are getting bored quicker now. It doesnt work.
Collecting new loot is fun as hell. The majority of any MMO customer base will agree with that.
Maybe for some of you.
I was just in WvW. Tons of people having fun. No one crying about their lack of loot or how bad the game is because they can’t outstat the other side.
Just people running around slaughtering each other and having fun doing it.
Give it another few months… it will only last so long before people get bored with the same maps and limited results. “Reward” need to equal or be better than “effort” and as time goes on… like someone already said…fun has diminishing returns.
Dont get me wrong though… im not saying wvw isnt fun. I’m just saying that they are fighting an uphill battle removing that entire loot aspect from an mmo. Horizontal progression was a horrible idea for a player base that has proven historically that vertical is what keeps long term attention. People LOVE to brag and compete for new gear, progression, skill, and even for smaller things like max dmg/healing etc. GW2 Doesnt leave a whole lot left compared to other MMO’s.
Not only that but the track records for new mmos the past 4-5 years isnt exactly stellar. They tried way too hard to reinvent the wheel.
Thousands of players RvR’d on DAoC for years without ANY reward at all, other than the sheer satisfaction of seeing their realm beating their enemies. It was when they introduced rewards that affected the pvp gameplay that everything started to fall.
See, that was the mentality before World of Warcraft. It worked perfectly fine. Now it doesn’t anymore for a lot of people, because WoW (and to a lesser extent, EQ1) introduced this heavily reward-centered mentality we have today.
Non reward-centric games can work, they just seem to catter to a different kind of player. The most fun I ever had on a MMO was back in 98, playing UO. No other game ever came close to it so far. And UO was a completely reward-free sandbox enviroment.
It will take some time, people who want GW2 to change to better suit to their playstyles will eventually leave to other games and we will have this game being a heaven for those who actually like it the way it is supposed to be. And I strongly believe that, with time, even those who dislike this gameplay style will give it another chance and maybe even discover it to be an enjoyable experience.
If you see a lot of people using CC to render your DS useless, try to think smart and start doing the same with them….
Start entering DS to make them waste their CC on you… This can be done both ways. Think of it as the GW2 version of the WoW’s fake casting
I’m yet to see a broken DE on my 47 elementalist. Really, I never experienced any kind of bugs so far and I have 100% completion on many many zones with him…
I remember that I found a lot of broken SPs back in beta and they were all fixed on retail.
I’m sorry you are finding broken DEs. Are you bug reporting them?
I’m leveling up just fine with as many alts as my 6 character slots allow me. If its a Orr issue, it’s not as much as a “leveling problem” as you are trying to make us believe.
And even if 10% of all DEs were bugged somehow (which I strongly doubt), it wouldn’t still be enough to call the game state “deplorable”. You seem just frustrated and decided to come here and vent.
Get your hopes up, today’s patch may fix a lot of bugs for everyone.
With my thief alt I hate some destroyers’ burning attack that have no animation at all and is ranged. They just stand still for a second or two and then I see my life being completely evaporated in seconds. I had to slot a condition removal skill just for this attack.
I agree with Derpinator on his last post. The best way to remove the grindy feeling to things people decide to focus on, is to give them alternate ways to reach the same goals. It won’t affect those of us who really don’t care about how long it will take to get anything and it won’t also affect the time everyone else will have to invest to get that same thing, it will just make it less grindy for them. So, in the end, it’s a win-win situation.
For one, I think that the whole token system is somewhat flawed. They had a way better approach on Guild Wars 1, with tradable rare crafting materials.
And Wintyre, there is no point in keeping those arguments. As much as I agree with you about playing for the sake of having fun instead of rewards, I strongly believe that there are ways to make both sides happy without any gameplay experience detriment for the other. And that is what we should be really aiming our suggestions at.
THANK YOU. THIS RIGHT HERE IS WHAT I AM TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO THE OTHER GUY. But you know, who cares about loot? We should all just have fun!
EDIT: Apparently, if I put a lot of U’s in FUN, it censors it as kitten. Okay then…
He said that in his opinion, it should be level appropriate. I disagree. IMO, if the game design is not reward-centric, then:
1) Mobs shouldn’t always drop loot;
2) Mobs should only drop loot up to level-appropriate loot;
3) Mob loot tables should have an anti-farming code that decreases the loot table when farming is likely going on.
4) Boss mobs should have, in their loot table, the chance of getting better rated, level-appropriate gear, and the anti-farming code should apply to them as well.
I almost completely agree with your points here. I don’t think the absence of a loot bag removes the fun of any content I can experience in this game. Actually I mostly get my gear from the trade post and I’m ok with that. I play to have fun and I do it BY enjoying every single aspect of the game while I play and I tend to get surprised everytime I level because I was so busy having fun that I didnt even realize I was close to it.
Now about your points:
When you say up to level appropriate items, I agree, but not completely. There are many items that serves no purpose other than to be sold as junk. Those, and that fact that we don’t always get loot bags from kills, already give diversity and removes us from the reward-centric concept. We can kill and get nothing and killing will still be fun.
But I do agree with AdelaisAer when he talks about proportionality. We differ from each other when I say that the lack of a loot bag wouldn’t make the encounter less fun to me, but I do agree with him that, there is just no reason for an underleveled loot on a hard encounter.
Easy to kill mobs can have underleveled loot all the time, they are easy, and we could, if we wanted to think about it from a realistic perspective, that his lower-than-average quality gear was part of what made him weaker. That is not the case when we are talking about a champion mob.
So, my point boils down to: sure, they can drop lower level stuff, but there is just no reason for that as the non-reward-centric concept is already part of the chance of no loot at all mechanic allied with the low xp and coins for mob farming.
Also, the proportinality is already in game in many places. Meta events always spawn huge chests with many quality items. It what you said was the case 100% of times, event-spawned reward chests shouldn’t even exist, don’t you think?
Excuse me? Fun-centric? Oh yeah, it’s totally fun to have to try to kill a champion enemy for five minutes with four other people, only to finally get a loot from it, which happened to be a low level blue hammer. FUN!
If your idea of fun is reward-centric, GW2 probably isn’t the best game for you.
It’s not that my fun is reward-oriented, but I’d like to be properly rewarded when I do something. If I were to kill a low level enemy, I’d expect a crap item. But from a champion (which is pretty much like a boss enemy)? I expect better things. :/ It’s just common sense.
I took my time to mark your contradiction for yourself. What you said is the very definition of reward-oriented, where you demand to be rewarded for your time and effort.
I’ve killed plenty of champions on this game just because I wanted to see the place where they were and had to pass through them. I had my reasons, the fights were interesting (some of them could have been better tho) and my reward was the feeling that I managed to do what I wanted, in the end.
Yes, it could have dropped a +500 Infernal Sword of Eternal Death, it would have been great, but I didn’t find it unfun just because I had no drops.
It’s not a contradiction. It’s a simple matter of fact. Higher level enemies give you more experience points and, hopefully, better loot. Or at least, that’s how it should be anyway.
Obviously I don’t expect it to drop a legendary, but you know, at least something that matches its level at the very least (it was Lv. 36, I think? I got a lvl. 16 item).
I do things for fun in the game; I do map exploration a lot and run around and good off a lot, but when I kill enemies, they need to give me the proper amount of experience points (a lv. 5 boar isn’t going to give me 10,000 exp, right? Only about 10 or so). That’s all. > >;
If you have been given a lower level loot, it was probably because you were playing on a lower level map, am I right?
The game has a system in place that, if you are downleveling yourself to play on a lower level zone, you may or may not get loot based on your real level. Sometimes the loot will be based to the level of the zone. This may have been the case for you.
>Lv. 35~36 Champion
>Lower level mapNo, you are not right. I am well aware of down-leveling, but I wasn’t in a low level map. In fact, the other people who were with me all had the exact same complaints as me. We enjoyed the champion battle, don’t get me wrong, but we were disappointed in the loots. The only thing decent was the experience points given to us.
Well in this case I agree with you then. I dont think a drop, if the game ever decided to give you one, should be of a lower level than the content you are experiencing at that moment. There is just no reason for that.
The encounter could have not given you any loot bags, but if it did, the loot should be level appropriate, in my opinion, at least.
Excuse me? Fun-centric? Oh yeah, it’s totally fun to have to try to kill a champion enemy for five minutes with four other people, only to finally get a loot from it, which happened to be a low level blue hammer. FUN!
If your idea of fun is reward-centric, GW2 probably isn’t the best game for you.
It’s not that my fun is reward-oriented, but I’d like to be properly rewarded when I do something. If I were to kill a low level enemy, I’d expect a crap item. But from a champion (which is pretty much like a boss enemy)? I expect better things. :/ It’s just common sense.
I took my time to mark your contradiction for yourself. What you said is the very definition of reward-oriented, where you demand to be rewarded for your time and effort.
I’ve killed plenty of champions on this game just because I wanted to see the place where they were and had to pass through them. I had my reasons, the fights were interesting (some of them could have been better tho) and my reward was the feeling that I managed to do what I wanted, in the end.
Yes, it could have dropped a +500 Infernal Sword of Eternal Death, it would have been great, but I didn’t find it unfun just because I had no drops.
It’s not a contradiction. It’s a simple matter of fact. Higher level enemies give you more experience points and, hopefully, better loot. Or at least, that’s how it should be anyway.
Obviously I don’t expect it to drop a legendary, but you know, at least something that matches its level at the very least (it was Lv. 36, I think? I got a lvl. 16 item).
I do things for fun in the game; I do map exploration a lot and run around and good off a lot, but when I kill enemies, they need to give me the proper amount of experience points (a lv. 5 boar isn’t going to give me 10,000 exp, right? Only about 10 or so). That’s all. > >;
If you have been given a lower level loot, it was probably because you were playing on a lower level map, am I right?
The game has a system in place that, if you are downleveling yourself to play on a lower level zone, you may or may not get loot based on your real level. Sometimes the loot will be based to the level of the zone. This may have been the case for you.
The power difference between rares and exotics is EXACTLY 12%, stop inflating numbers to make your point valid. It just makes you look stupid.
Oh, so you were full rare when you hit 80, including accesories, ring and necklaces. My fault then, I guess I was doing something wrong.
Not sure what you meant by that comment of yours but what I said was not based on opinion, it’s a fact, and a well documented one. An rare item is 88%, in terms of power, of what an exotic is.
So if you hit 80 with a full set of rares, when compared to another person with a full set of exotics he will be nothing more than 12% stronger.
(Obivously, I’m taking stats tailoring out of the equation)
(edited by deriver.5381)
Excuse me? Fun-centric? Oh yeah, it’s totally fun to have to try to kill a champion enemy for five minutes with four other people, only to finally get a loot from it, which happened to be a low level blue hammer. FUN!
If your idea of fun is reward-centric, GW2 probably isn’t the best game for you.
It’s not that my fun is reward-oriented, but I’d like to be properly rewarded when I do something. If I were to kill a low level enemy, I’d expect a crap item. But from a champion (which is pretty much like a boss enemy)? I expect better things. :/ It’s just common sense.
I took my time to mark your contradiction for yourself. What you said is the very definition of reward-oriented, where you demand to be rewarded for your time and effort.
I’ve killed plenty of champions on this game just because I wanted to see the place where they were and had to pass through them. I had my reasons, the fights were interesting (some of them could have been better tho) and my reward was the feeling that I managed to do what I wanted, in the end.
Yes, it could have dropped a +500 Infernal Sword of Eternal Death, it would have been great, but I didn’t find it unfun just because I had no drops.
… Furthermore, you say I don’t need to have exotics, but you have no idea as to what difference there is in strength between a character who just hit level 80 and a character in full exotics. None. Nil. Zero. I’ll tell you: it’s enormous. …
The power difference between rares and exotics is EXACTLY 12%, stop inflating numbers to make your point valid. It just makes you look stupid.
Rangers are also great if you stick with a tanking pet like a bear. You will hardly have any problems even with elites.
I’m really up to the point where I’m starting to think those people are being paid to come here and complain about the game…. Really, the OP’s point is beyond any reasonable logic.
People are starting to get really bad at finding reasons to complain.
Mr Thebigcheese wrote:
A lot is Anet’s fault with their ridiculous sales hype. Revolution this and amazing dynamic events that.
Then they released a game that is a step backwards for the genre in terms of creativity and content. All they did was change things up on the interface and make it so you don’t pick up/turn in quests.
The content itself is as stale as it gets. The classes are the shallowest in the genre. Everything about GW2 was tired upon release.My response it this… that is your personal opinion and not fact. I disagree with it because I am personally not finding these issues. In my opinion they gave me everything they promised and then some nice little cookies that wern’t advertised.
Does the game have some problems… sure it does absolutely. No game less than 1 month from launch didn’t have problems. They are working on issues as we speak. I have only ran into 1 bug so far.. a skill point in WvW was missing, the one at the centar camp. We all reported it… I went and did other things. A few hours later it was fixed… it think it was like 3-4 hours, can’t recall.
Point is there is so much to do that it did not interrupt any game play for me. I just moved on. And that is the main issue for alot of gamers unsatisfied here, they cannot move on.
They spent $60 on a game they are not happy with. It sux, I know. I have dont it myself a few times. You buy a game with preconcieved notions or high expectations etc, and the game dosen’t live up to it. You feel like you wasted your money. Such is life.
Sometimes you just have to suck it up and swallow the self intitlement and move on to a different game. The world will continue to revolve, the universe will continue to expand and games will continue to be produced. Gammers will continue to whine and demand everything they think they deserve etc. It’s a never ending cycle.
How will games ever improve if only positive feedback is allowed and anyone with criticism should “just move on”?
This makes no sense to me.
What I would really like is one of you people with valid complains, to come here and tell us what is your vision of a positive criticism. And after that, actually post some of this same criticism so we can compare.
I see many positive criticism from people who, like me, want a better game. We will always want a better game, because there will always be room for improvement. But I also se many many many more completely useless posts of people who find posting that they want a completely different game something positive at all.
If you really think that a post saying things like “this is a complete fail”, “this is NOTHING what I expected”, “change everything, because what you have sucks” and alike is any kind of positive, you must have problems, really.
Now my only gripe is with those kind of posts. Posts like “things I would like to see changing”, “suggestions for a better end game”, “ways to improve your dungeon experience”, are very very welcome.
If you feel entitled to post just to vent your frustrations with nothing construtive, get ready to be flamed to death by the so called obnoxious community.
Don’t know why people even bother bring discussions like this one up…. Nothing is going to change, haters will still hate, fans will still defend the game.
I really don’t care anymore. It is just sad that a good tool for comunication can’t be used for anything else than flame wars these days. And its the same for every other MMO out there.
Blacklight gave some interesting ideas. Although I still fail to understand why people would find something completely free a bad idea.
But I wouldn’t mind equipment out of the reward list and just put something else there…
Sako.2391I’m having enough fun with just 3 characters, to be honest!
I never understood how someone could need to buy so many slots. To each their own, though.Roll Engineer try it out
Roll Thief try it out
Roll Ranger try it out
Roll Mesmer try it out
Roll Necro try it out…delete Mesmer
Roll Warrior try it out..delete Ranger
Roll Guardian try it out…delete Necro
Roll Elementalist try it outThat’s kinda what my first few days of GW2 looked like. I even deleted the 5th slot multiple times because i wanted to go back and try the othe professions again even after i had deleted it. I eventually went up to 8 character slots…but then i wanted to try out other races.
hehehe
You just described myself, just with a few more character slots!
No I’m not, altough I can’t find the post where I saw the dev/mod speaking about it, it was a topic related to DE’s and not dungeons.
The DR is not a dungeon only thing. They implemented the DR system and its a game wide mechanic and affect every aspect of it as it stands right now.
Anyways if it’s not a bug, I agree with you all. So if I’m really wrong and misunderstood the post I saw, I agree that it sounds more like a “stop playing system after 30 mins” then a “stop farming system after 30 mins”
No, they said it was a bug that people who were moving between DEs were still having DRs kicking in. The system will ONLY reduce your loot if you do the same DEs over and over…
That’s odd, I haven’t hit the anti-botting code yet. I was running between 3-4 events in Cursed Shore for an hour or two last night, still kept getting drops and full xp/karma while waiting for my friend to finish his personal story.
They may have been experiencing the bug with the system or maybe just doing exactly what the system is trying to stop: farming the same spot over and over.
WoW not giving rewards for map exploration is actually a great point.
This game does reward you for it, which means it encourages you to explore. That’s one of the purposes for rewarding players.
If the game rewards you more for doing easy things and rewards you much, much less for doing challenging things, then the game encourages you to not do challenging things and instead do the easy things. That isn’t good.
Saying that this game isn’t about the reward is a terrible argument considering there is plenty of rewards in the game already, which is great, for the most part those rewards encourage things such as exploration, taking on challenges (puzzles), or even rezzing people (xp for rezzing).
However, the rewards are just inconsistent, some aren’t as rewarding as they should be, and some are too rewarding (look at the nerfs Anet has been doing).
I agree with you about the inconsistence… But I’m sure it will be figured out and fixed accordingly in time.
In WoW you get absolutely nothing for map completion besides your achievement. Here they decided to give some rewards and just because “some” doesn’t mean a perfect combination of items that are completely suited for your class/build/level/needs you people find it reasonable to come here and complain.
I strongly believe that if they gave everything, everyone asked for, people would still find reasons to come here and complain, because they just can’t be happy enough.
Heck this is the first game I ever played that gives you something at all, just for seeing a whole map.
Yes, WOW didn’t give you rewards for map completion, but the system was never in place so you didn’t expect it. You got rewards through other means, quests, ect. Also, its not about perfect rewards. Its about fun. What is fun? Fun is NOT selling stuff you can’t use on the TP. Sorry. Fun is knowing that the rewards MIGHT be better than what you have and if its not, oh well. But the anticipation is always there. In GW, I’ve stopped anticipating positive rewards because they rarely come. THAT’s a problem. Good rewards come from buying stuff after the fact, which is NOT really fun unless hitting search on the TP and clicking “buy” is fun;) Its just a means to an end.
I don’t think anyone is asking to everything, just a reward you can use. How hard is it to code it so random gear that your class can use is rewarded upon map completion, not just random from ALL classes? VERY simple actually. It doesn’t have to be the exact piece you want, just something you can actually wear if you chose to. If it doesn’t have the stats, then you sell, but at least seeing a Sceptor or Dagger for your Necro makes you think COOL. ANOTHER piece of heavy armor after I got rewarded a shield and a piece of medium armor last time is NOT cool.
And NO, I won’t be thankful for the genius that is giving me a random reward when I finish a map=) Its about doing it the correct, fun, OBVIOUS way.
Not sure about you, but I already got some very good rewards from map completion. It is exactly as you said: it is something you MIGHT use, just not with the chance you think it should be appropriate for your definition of a fun expected reward.
In WoW it could be the same as asking for every boss, in every dungeon, to drop an item for every player in the group, and an item they could use, not just a random generated item that could just the of a type you can’t use at all.
The chance is there, people are complaining about the chance for the reward to be something usable. It could be greater, yes, although the fact that it isnt, doesn’t make it less fun to me… I’m sorry it does for you. Also, itens aside, you still get a hefty sum of experience and big bag of coins.
In the end it’s all about people trying to have everything they want in the exact form or shape they want, when they want, how many times they want. Is it really this hard to just be thankful for what you get? You could just be getting nothing at all, like EVERY other game out there.
(edited by deriver.5381)