Guild Wars 2

Not sure if serious. When did a 1 second = ~ 2.2 seconds?

Mathias.9657:

At least you guys aren’t knee jerk nerfing/buffing everything like always.

Meh boring thief changes, incredibly underwhelming patch notes after 4 months.

To all the bads saying they killed S/P, I never used the para sigil and still play fine. It’s still completely viable, stop crying about it.

Im afraid you aren’t aware on what is being discussed.

AshinDreidon.3861:

ensoriki.5789:

Archaon.6245:

Am I the only one here playing s\p without paralization like i always did? u.u

It’s not about Paralyzation, it’s about the change to rounding on stuns. Which affects PW as a fractional stun.

As someone who has played S/P pretty much since launch I’ve noticed this immediately and I’m very upset about it

I really enjoyed the feel of S/P and it really seemed to be in a good place.

It’s out of blue field which makes me think it is something they missed.

If they just missed it maybe Sharp/Allie can take note so we’re not left in the dark.

Archaon.6245:

Am I the only one here playing s\p without paralization like i always did? u.u

It’s not about Paralyzation, it’s about the change to rounding on stuns. Which affects PW as a fractional stun.

Pistol whip is dead.

I know from last week running rune of Mesmer on an Ele turned shock aura from a 1s stun to 2s stun. Which means the “daze” counts stuns. I know in PvE/WvW I run Sigil of paralyzation + Tactical strike and got a 3s daze.

Nope they’re considered the same for duration purposes. When I say PW was 1 second yesterday I mean it rounded to 1 second, to get the same duration now it has to be between (assuming I know the rounding correctly) 0.76 seconds and 0.99 seconds to round to 1 second.

Shukran.4851:

appreciated. what about that “1.5s too op” he was talking about?

Pistol whip was a 1 second stun yesterday. If we set it back to 1 second then “Rune of the Mesmer” which increases daze and stun duration 33% will turn Pistol whip to a 1.5 second stun. Which may or may not be too much.

This is the old animation of Pistol whip which is about 2.5 seconds.
It takes ~.5 seconds from the start to stun a target.
Takes ~ 1.1 seconds from the start for your animation frames to start this is the same length of time you have to interrupt quite a most healing skills.
So if we look. .5s to stun, and then you get 1s of stun, so 1.5s into the animation the person you attack is still stunned. Your attack starts at 1.1 seconds so they are free 1 second before you complete the animation.

We had a patch to speed up the time before sword wings, I don’t have any speed information on this. The .5 second start is the same, lets go on a limb and say now evade frames start .8 seconds into it. With a 1 second stun they’ll be free .7s into the animation. If this stun was 1.5s, they’d be free .2s into the animation, basically they would eat the entire pistol whip.

Hence if PW duration = 1s then rune of mesmer multiples that 1.33x to 1.5 = Full PW damage.
Right now if we consider the attack starts at .8s, then with kitten stun there is 1.2s left of animation time. So basically right now when you look at animation time, your opponent is actually free earlier than the original Pistol whip which had trouble getting damage without haste and now haste is 50% weaker.
So what you’re left with is a pistol whip with less guaranteed damage, without haste to try and reduce that.
If you put it to 1 second you get a Pistol whip that can be completely self-reliant when runed for and is really powerful for taking someone out of the game.

Solution are to
a) Speed Pistol whip up even further
i) removing the time between the stun and the sword slashes completely
ii) speeding up the sword whips
iii) speeding up the entire thing

b) put the stun to 0.8 seconds rounding up to 1 second, this wont give any extra time with SoP or decrease the vulnerability frames of PW but will round to 1.25s with rune of the mesmer.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-October-15-2013/first#post3027301

PW is a stun. PW no longer rounds.

evilapprentice.6379:

Puru.4217:

1s daze was useful for ranged support (or even during battle to be honest).
It was also useful if you were more interest in the auto attack chain for the cripple with 1s of breathing room and/or to surprise them with a fast interrupt unlike the first strike of pw.
I also liked to use daze then pw instead of autos to change things a bit.

It was basically nerfed as a support tool and as a mind game tool, which is a massive nerf for my playstyle at least, but overall i agree most people will probably be far more annoyed by the pw change which is simply breaking the set at this point.

As ensoriki said, the collateral damage to head shot isn’t major – it was never intended to be more than an interrupt, even without sigil of para it gets it’s intended job done.

PW was being carried by SoP, and even then it was only mediocre. Without the extra .5s stun, it’s inability to be used effectively against anyone with a tiny bit of experience is finally out in the open. The spec went from UP to unplayable due to this, as Anet originally designed I guess.

PW wasnt being carried by SoP. Guys listen cus Gywa got this wrong too.

Pistol whip NEVER worked with Sigil of Paralyzation. As 0.5 × 1.15 is still less than 1s.
The change that they did changes how the game itself handles dazes and stuns
Pistol whip and Headshot had the exact same duration of 1 second. The only thing that ever carried Pistol whip was haste, SoP literally did nothing to it, it did nothing to headshot and could not affect them. Likewise in Spvp SoP did nothing to tactical strike (which you are well aware of)

Every daze and Every stun in the game rounded up to the nearest second.
So if your skill was 0.5 like Pistol whip due to how the game worked it was 1 second.
If your stun was 2 seconds (remember Tactical strike?) it was 2 seconds.
Now if you had sigil of paralyzation or rune of the mesmer these multipled it.
0.5 × 1.15 = 0.575, rounded up to 1 second which meant no actual change
2 * 1.15 = 2.3 rounded up to 3s, and this is where SoP got wonky.
SoP did nothing for S/P. S/P’s nerf is collateral damage of changing the way the game has worked since beta if not alpha.

Gwya it’s not that we were using SoP, we weren’t no one would ever use SoP with Pistol whip because SoP never worked with pistol whip. It’s that changing the game to prevent SoP from making skills like PvE Tactical strike, Comet, Skull crack, Wail of doom, hilt bash and every other daze/stun that is 1,2 or 3 seconds long gain an extra second caused an effect on skills that are not 1,2 ,or 3 seconds. Which is spvp Tactical strike (1.5s), headshot, pistol whip.

Case in point lets look at spvp tactical
1.5s yesterday was rounded up (remember fractions are rounded up in GW2 prior to today) to 2 seconds of daze.
Now they are not rounded so it is 1.5s flat if you dont have SoP or rune of mesmer instead of the normal 2s, this is a nerf to tactical strike without SoP in spvp (which was already nerfed with SoP in mind). Now if you take SoP with Tactical strike
1.5s x 1.15 = 1.725. This rounds to 1.75s. So as you can see here now Tactical strike + SoP is actually weaker now then Tactical strike without SoP was yesterday, and this is why Pistol whip is nerfed. Not because of SoP but because of how rounding is handled.

How can they change this? I don’t know they might have to redo the skill. If you make Pistol whip 1 second again forcibly by changing it from 0.5s to 1s, then now SoP lets it go to 1.25s which is longer than it ever could be. Stronger yet is Rune of the mesmer 33% effect would change Pistol whip from 1s to 1.5s which would be 33% longer daze than it had yesterday if they fixed it back to it’s normal value. The only solution I see is to make it 0.8s which will round to 1s without SoP and with SoP become 0.92 and still round to 1s. With Rune of the mesmer taking it to 1.25s (a possible buff). However I don’t see anything that says there game can have 0.8s (4/5ths of a second) as a duration.

tl;dr SoP & PW were never used together, this fix nerfed it because it was a core game change.

@ Pura. I get it completely I used headshot for similar purposes, D/P thieves used it and so did P/P thieves, but it’s main intrinsic (right word?) purpose is as an interrupt to skills which it does and does well.

Smiter’s booning skills.

Gwalchgwn.1659:

ensoriki.5789:

Puru.4217:

Do not forget 1/4s daze fo heashot instead of 1s.

Im fine with it though because headshots role is as an interrupt. It’s a nerf but it’s acceptable given the purpose headshot is supposed to fulfill.
Nerfing the stun on pistol whip however reduces its ability to do actual damage.

Where is it stated that those two got nerfed btw? Can’t find any references to it besides you guys.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-October-15-2013/first#post3027301

The sigil of paralyzation fix is a change to the rounding mechanics of dazes and stuns (conditions didnt round up).
Since headshot and PW are fractions they always rounded up to the nearest second which was 1s. Now the game goes by .25 intervals for dazes and stuns of .25, .5, .75 and 1 (so on and so forth) for dazes and stuns. That is the fix to sigil of paralyzation.
As headshot is .25s daze and PW is .5s stun by default without rounding thats exactly what they do now. which is reducing them by 75% and 50% accordingly.

Excalibur.9748:

style.6173:

Shukran.4851:

cool! pw build was the highest cap skill build we had (huehue haste op).
dead after 2 months anyway.

so, what is left to thief to be op? what build? thanks

Thief is the best class at respawning after getting killed. They should nerf that too so that a thief has to spend 30 seconds dead before respawning.

Joking aside though, thief is one of the bottom two classes in PvP at the moment. Play warrior or necro if you want to be OP.

It was bottom 2 before this patch, now it’s bottom 1.

Thief sets that were in question before have had quite little done to them including S/D. D/P and S/D aren’t really going to change in significance as a result of anything internally done to the thief. Headshot is still effective at its role of interrupting and Tactical strike is used too infrequently for the reduced duration from 2s rounded to flat 1.5s to be of great importance whether S/P or S/D. S/D’s boon reduction will put less pressure on boon profs, but it’s evasive defensive capability is untouched, which lets it keep staying power even if a S/D steals protection in reality he’s still a glass thief and he can’t actually eat damage. Only question for S/D is if teams feel he puts out enough pressure to keep, which will probably be a yes.

Only thing is I don’t know why you’d take S/P now unless you had a heavy cc comp to set it up, but given that why wouldn’t you just take HB which does more damage then a single PW if you that amount of of util. Group stealth? A Mesmer could fulfill that purpose and bring significant levels of cleave themselves.
Even in venom sharing P/P with the body shot may be able to serve that position better due to having more reliable damage on a single target.

But like I said it’s possible they just up the stun duration to match the new rounding system but perhaps not. If they put it to 1s, then Rune of mesmer I think could round it to 1.5s, which would be really potent and sigil of paralyzation would put it to 1.25 (which could be a slight buff to pre-patch).
Given that a potential 1.5s Pistol whip sounds too strong it may not get that.

putting a .25s stun on the first sword swing maybe? Immobilize is another option but that probably wont go well in practice.

Puru.4217:

Do not forget 1/4s daze fo heashot instead of 1s.

Im fine with it though because headshots role is as an interrupt. It’s a nerf but it’s acceptable given the purpose headshot is supposed to fulfill.
Nerfing the stun on pistol whip however reduces its ability to do actual damage.

1s stun reduced 50% to 0.5s. Good luck holding someone to slash them now.

And a giant Pistol whip nerf.

Two threads?
Might as well repost that S/P has been murdered and is now worse than P/P has ever been. R.I.P Pistol whip, good night sweet prince, you tried so hard.

It’s part of the class mechanic to adapt to the opponent they’re facing.
All thief stolen abilities are strong in their own right. You’ll want Whirling axe > Consume Ectoplasm when you’re under range fire, reflecting projectiles is negating entire damage, protection is just mitigating it. 4s daze is 4s of no damage from an individual and 4s of reduced active defenses, healing seed is a giant water field that removes conditions stolen from a Ranger which is generally a condi class.

Galandil.9641:

ensoriki.5789:

Sword/Pistol was super nerfed.
Pistol whips stun now lasts half as long. It cannot hold anyone which means it struggles far more than ever to get damage

The tooltip always states 1/2 sec for the stun, I tried it and to me it seems that the stun lasts 0.5 secs, did you try it and you counted only 0.25 secs?

@evilapprentice: tnx for the link.

I guess you only started playing the game so I’ll let you know the situation.
All Stuns and Dazes rounded up to the nearest second, this is how the game has played out for more than a year now (this existing into the beta’s and possibly the alphas but I wasnt in the alpha).
This meant if a daze was .25s it would round up to 1 second but even with stun duration increases such as paralyzation and rune of the mesmer, it would never be able to round up to .25s. This is what they knowingly used against Tactical Strike (Sword stealth attack) in spvp back in November. They changed it from 2s to 1.5s so that it in reality was still a 2s daze, but you could never increase it to 3s.
Pistol whip was 0.5s, but because of how the game worked that meant it was a 1 second stun.

Now this affects skills like headshot but headshots inherit purpose is to interrupt a skill, which is continues to do just fine regardless of it lasting 1 second or not. It fits its role.
Pistol whip holds a target down momentarily so you can get some (not all) of the damage, with teamwork, utility skills, sigils or strong positioning being used to get the full damage. At 0.5s it does not hold a target. Essentially if you press pistol whip now and blink, when you open your eyes the stun is already over and they are moving. It can’t function against players anymore. Secondly because the stun doesn’t last as long and your invulnerability still start at a fixed point they actually break out before the stun occurs. It remains to be tested but this now leaves room for Runes of Melandru for instance to put pistol whip to 0.25s in scaling, which means even after stunning someone they’ll be interrupt you with non-instant skills. It is completely unfeasible outside of PvE now, and even in PvE will become significantly more questionable.

@maugetaurr that’s exactly it. The Fix to sigil of paralyzation is to change the way the game handles stun and daze which effects every skill with that property. Essentially meaning pistol whip is a self-root without the power of hundred blades, the projectile reflection, range and tracking of zealot defense, the total immunity of Blurred frenzy and a mere .5s stun at the end of a ~.75s cast.
R.I.P all S/P thieves.

Vena.8436:

ensoriki.5789:

S/P got ether renewaled, nerfed harder than 100nades.
I am so disappoint. Bet there were some good stuff in the patch but my eyes are only on this unnecessary massacre.

Its a WvW nerf, I’m almost certain.

I haven’t done WvW in quite awhile but from what I’ve picked up mixed with what was reality back then. S/P was less common in WvW from Oct-Haste nerf then it was in spvp, and even more so afterwards.

I think they just forgot about all the other stun skills in their effort to appease complaints about the warrior. Multiple daze/CC skills/traits have been nerfed and you have to consider how many of them had any complaints? Ranger has a 50% duration increase on stun/daze if I recall that no one trips over because ranger stuns are 1s at best, all that did is bring them to 2s, and now they’re 1.5s. Did they need the nerf? Probably not.

Eurantien.4632:

Shouldn’t need paralyzation to kill people with pistol whip…

Paralyzation never worked with Pistol whip. If it does now and that is what you meant that would be surprising (does it make it .75 instead of .5s?) even then you’d be missing .25s from the original 1s.

Toroquin.3605:

Yeah, I was afraid this would happen… honestly, there are many broken things about the thief, but Pistol Whip isn’t one of them (Although it was a bit lame when it had 25% more damage and could be combined with a 100% quickness. But that was a while ago.). Seems that the devs were only thinking about the longer stuns when making this change, even though they are the least affected ones.

It feels quite shortsighted. Stuns are a global thing this will affect multiple professions. I don’t doubt Mesmer and Ranger with their duration increase traits that I seldom saw or Rune of the Mesmer suddenly finding that these are increasingly poor trade-off’s now as a result of their CC not being upscaled for the new rounding.

Rest in peace S/P you tried to stay relevant as long as you could.

S/P got ether renewaled, nerfed harder than 100nades.
I am so disappoint. Bet there were some good stuff in the patch but my eyes are only on this unnecessary massacre.

Sword/Pistol was super nerfed.
Pistol whips stun now lasts half as long. It cannot hold anyone which means it struggles far more than ever to get damage

Change my mind.
They ether renewaled S/P.
I’ve never seen a weapon set so massacred.
I am not pleased with the patch, but I am too far removed at this point to be upset just really disappointed.

Finally logging in I had to check…
All stuns/daze now have their exact duration, that seems to be how they fixed paralyzation by stopping the full second rounding.
Which means… Pistol whip doesn’t round to a second now, PW’s stun now lasts half as long, you get out .5s earlier. This has been effectively further neutered. So since reaching a “balanced” state in the October nerf it’s now lost haste, lost mug, lost its stun break out of S/D complaint, and now lost its stun out of a War dilemna. Not that this isn’t fixable they can surely upgrade the stun to 1s but who knows the timeframe for that. Tactical strike and headshot are also affected I don’t think any other weapon set lost so much potency in a patch, not that the headshot and tactical strike change are as important to this.

EDIT: Tyler Chapman has recently addressed that they are aware of the issue and will be discussing what they can do.

Still don’t see it justifying P/P.
See plenty of opportunity for P/D though.
Will have to play with it though.

It’s a start.
Chill out.

1111111111111111111111111
~Ranger.

Stealth is more of a class feature then a mechanic, given 3 other professions have access to it.

I wish they’d stop taking these roots off skills that are functional with them.
In a month time there will be walking HB’s, Pistol whips, blurred frenzy and zealot defense.

I wonder if Signet Mesmers are still trolls, been a long time since I’ve seen them.

evilapprentice.6379:

ensoriki.5789:

evilapprentice.6379:

Kaizer.7135:

A hard counter is better than no counter at all, and whoop-de-doo, 4 second reveal isn’t going to get you killed unless you suck at Thief.

Please read all the other posts that have said this.

The CD, the length of the effect, whether or not rangers run it – NONE OF THAT CHANGES THE FACT THAT AN UNAVOIDABLE HARD COUNTER TO UP TO 42% OF CLASSES TRAIT POINTS AS WELL AS 33% OF THEIR CLASS MECHANICS IS STUPID DESIGN. It’s following on the poor precedent set by anti-stealth traps in Wvw (Like I said would happen when they announced anti-stealth traps). It’s lazy and it removes skill from the equation, because it can’t be avoided.

The stealth itself is stupid design.
Get over it.

So are clones in my opinion, but you won’t see me asking for a skill that despawns them all and prevents new ones from being created for 4s (not seriously, anyway). Just because I don’t like fighting certain mesmer builds doesn’t mean they need a targeted, unavoidable, uncleansable hard counter.

Whether or not stealth is poorly designed does not justify a poorly designed counter – in fact, it’s a very bad argument. Lets take everything players don’t like and introduce uncleansable, unavoidable hard counters to it, and we’ll see how fun the game is.

Sick em only prevents the access, it can’t be used on a stealthed target.
The design is hardly an issue. I have no qualm with it, I see quite some issue in the huge amount of stealth traits in Shadow arts which makes it highly favour /D, & D/P over the other 3 sets, increasingly so since S/P venom share became less effective with the inf strike nerf. Which makes this more significant than it should be. Though it does feel like a bandaid fix to go around incorrect stealth application in the first place that warranted its creation.

histerico.6153:

How about if they make Swirling Winds a lightning field no other effects just the field. That shouldn’t too op right?

You are aware combo finisher leap is daze right?

Larynx.2453:

ensoriki.5789:

Jesus take the wheel.

Do you ever have any constructive contributions to threads or do you just spam them with meaningless gibberish?

Find out for yourself.

Jesus take the wheel.

evilapprentice.6379:

Kaizer.7135:

A hard counter is better than no counter at all, and whoop-de-doo, 4 second reveal isn’t going to get you killed unless you suck at Thief.

Please read all the other posts that have said this.

The CD, the length of the effect, whether or not rangers run it – NONE OF THAT CHANGES THE FACT THAT AN UNAVOIDABLE HARD COUNTER TO UP TO 42% OF CLASSES TRAIT POINTS AS WELL AS 33% OF THEIR CLASS MECHANICS IS STUPID DESIGN. It’s following on the poor precedent set by anti-stealth traps in Wvw (Like I said would happen when they announced anti-stealth traps). It’s lazy and it removes skill from the equation, because it can’t be avoided.

The stealth itself is stupid design.
Get over it.

ronpierce.2760:

I think the difference is you cant even close to perma invuln, but you can definitely perma stealth… :/

The evil you can see is better than the one you can not.

Sweet no more getting neuted on while im killing in Obsidian Flesh.

Is Master Togo dead?
Of course I’d buy a Cantha expansion, hell yeah I want a cantha expansion. I want a Cantha expansion more than I want the dragons.

Mine Engi new meta.
Removes 1 boon, cannot be beat.

Even with a Cleric amulet? That’s an interesting tidbit.
Do one for Celestial amulet.

Would be cool if Healing signet was more like Hercules Mitigate wounds but the constant healing isn’t really boring to me. What’s lame is that Signets have actives with the purpose of them being used and the healing is strong enough that most just disregard the active and the active itself is fairly underwhelming.

Nope.
The only regular exception is lord victories or even losses when you’re just about to win if you kill that lord but don’t make it in time, that’s a climactic end to me that kind of ends up wanting to go again. More irregular exceptions would be boss kill victories when both teams are around 475 points. Temple buffs are climactic but the match doesn’t end that way.
Khylo kinda boring, forest outside of those clutch bosses is boring, capricorn is boring, sky hammer is quirky but broke as kitten, and Spirit watch has clutch scoring too with orbs but the implementation rubs me the wrong way and I do not like it.
So all in all nope, Conquest is only addictive when it ends on an impactful note and it rarely does.

^ there is a bit of a snowball effect.
I dont play often anymore for multiple reasons 1 that has nothing to do with Anet. All a balance does is potentially let you have more fun with your profession in the constraints of the format. If that is all you need then itll bring you bavk but truthfully class balance is only part of why play time decreases or stops. A balance patch definitely helps retain some players but it can also cause players to leave so I don’t think its really a solid retention tool.

Arheundel.6451:

And you are…a zerker amulet user…
Dude you should get real, I repeat myself, yesterday I was using a blasted soldier amulet and this thief backstabbed me from stealth for godkitten 7k dmg, I had full HP and 1.5k toughness., a single kittening skills followed by 2 HS and my HP was down by 90% all happened in a split second

Reality is that toughness is not going to scale the damage you take from ele burst differently than Thief/Mesmer. As a glass if Im hit by a thief burst, its stun break and move. If you are actually hit by an ele burst you are dead, it has to be avoided because the burst is that high. Being in soldier or berserker doesn’t change that it does more damage in a shorter time frame than both thief and Mesmers. Full Stop.

The day that a burst ele can burst me down from 100% to downed while wearing a soldier amulet, like a thief or mesmer, will be the day I’ll join you in asking to tone down ele burst

How the hell do you get bursted from 100-0% in Soldiers,? If your in a soldiers a thief and Mesmer burst should be counteracted by a break and heal and if you die it’ll be follow up damage, not the burst specifically. It wont 100-0%. You can not join me on something I have not requested.

And I’ve run 300 acrobatics with zerker and went literally from 16.4k health to 0 the moment I was lightning flashed to.
Get real brah they’re not trying to condemn the Ele its spitting truth that burst hits hard. I had never been hit harder through all phases of thief and mesmer burst.
Who gives a kitten where they are in SoloQ truth is truth one of the top bursts in game.

holunder.4682:

Edit: To point another thing out: Completely remove the Autododge form Pistolwhip.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

What auto dodge. You know Pistol whip can be interrupted?
You should do stand-up.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

ground targetted skills that fire themselves?
Jesus christ…

Eles are not supposed to be beating out other professions in 1-1 narrow comparisons like you have decided to do.

As far as Im concerned, staff guardian already performs this better than us. In order for us to stack might to a party, we need to blow 1 arcane on 30 seconds CD, part of our combo, need to go from earth to fire, which each as 12-15 secs CD, huge in a fight where now your defensive attunement is on CD. A guardian provides about the same if not more amount and a heal, one skill, 15 secs CD, less if traited. Engis does a better job too. Warrior with banners if they do decide to do so too.

This is a skewed picture. Here’s another perspective.
Staff Guardian has Empower, this is a channeled rooted ability, the guardian is vulnerable during this time to interrupts and offense. Guardians also have a fire field they may or may not bring.
Every Elementalist weapon set has a fire field. What this means on a different note is that Eles always have the ability for the team to stack might. So yes if an Ele wants to stack it himself he will have issues but as a profession with a significant amount of combo fields he doesn’t have to, since he brings the fire field which oddly enough have “cross profession combos” he allows everyone to contribute. In certain respects this can be better, in certain circumstances not, but if you’re choosing the Elementalist individual ability to stack might for a team when the way he does it allows the team to do it themself you’re painting a skewed image.
In addition while a guardian will have that staff, A Staff ele will bring for instance more zoning potential than the staff while keeping the ability to might stack. A Scepter/Focus ele, will have Vigor he can bring out though focus fire attunement is underwhelming (ill give you that). The S/D Ele will have fire grab to be able to hit a single target for respectable damage when needed. Then you can look at weapon swaps outside of the staff, but you can look that an S/F ele is stopping all projectile assault with Swirling winds, meaning engineer grenades, pistol/rifle shots, ranger 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 spam are put to a halt. The D/P Thief who was going to 5-2 spam, can’t blind a member and now gets interrupted, or has to wait out the 6 seconds. The Staff guardian isn’t bringing that and even if he weapon swaps he isn’t bringing swirling winds, he has an alternative but it’s range of effect is nowhere near as large nor as flexible.

That’s not to say Ele is beast mode, but they do have aspects of them that are very attractive. You can’t do the 1-1 narrow comparison on aspects of a prof it undersells them drastically.

I do feel Eles can be a bit too easy to focus on. You can very quickly end up having to pop a lot of CD’s just to stay afloat oh and for a jack-of-all-trades profession that uses all stats… Celestial is disappointingly underwhelming on them.=

Eles; Very telegraphed moves, damage dependent on AF]K players, 0 team utility since arcanes and cantrips are selfish. Boons are good, at expense of very lenghty cooldowns who leave them on even longer attunement CD, which cuts their only way or survival. Only “viable” build is a burst hit-or-miss who will die in a teamfight first thing.

All of your comparisons were hyperbole and this one is just melodramatic horsekitten.

Illusion.1807:

Even though I agree eles is not doing well in pvp, I think eles may still be the best designed class in the game. This implies that other classes are not well designed. My reason is that most popular builds right now are about brainlessly spamming something: conditions, cc, stealth, evade, movement skills, minions, etc. The game allows these skills to be spammed without much consequences. Eles is well designed because brainlessly spamming skills will get punished much harder than other classes. Eles players need to consider timing, position, and counter play much more than other classes. I think this is good direction that other classes should move toward.

Lets not bring in talk of design, it is getting old between talks of “Warrior best design prof”…brb “omfg can’t dodge this god kitten untelegraphed skull crack”, “It’s sad that all thieves run daggers because sword thief was the way it was meant to be played with teleports” brb “Omfg I can’t hit this kitten, for the life of me, jesus christ Anet”, “I’d love to see Necros more they deserve it” brb “What the flying kitten is with these instant marks, instant doom, and this life shroud doesnt take no god kitten damage”

Forget design talk, 3 months later we’ll be screaming how horse kitten Elementalist air spikes are or that Mantra of Pain can’t be dodged or go back to talk about pointblank shatters having no animation time to dodge.

Darnis.4056:

The illusionist/trickster class is hard to fight? I wonder if this is intended…

What is hard about spamming pistol whip and having a dead Puma?
If I could change 1 thing on a mesmer I would delete iduelist because I despise it.