Guild Wars 2

Unbelievable.

Finally, an ANet rep having a discussion about the Necro’s needs, and they’ve having it with players who don’t even main a Necro, in a forum where most dedicated Necros won’t even be looking…

Stealth openers? This is what is crippling Necro survivability? Really???? It couldn’t be that a Necro’s entire survivability is tied to a slow accrue/slow expend mechanic that doesn’t keep up with the pace of pvp combat? It couldn’t be compounded the fact that their complete inability to disengage a fight obliges them to stay and fight any time someone chooses to engage them regardless of whether it is tactically or situationally beneficial for the Necro or their team.

Just carry on though, I’m sure Necros will thank you for this later…

Call me crazy but this is just a thought I had, how about addressing your desired audience in the title of the thread, rather than asking ANet to make you special snowflakes your own sub forum. You know, something like “Current state of the meta – Top Tier tPvP”?

And that idea being batted around about removing build customization in exchange for pre-approved builds, I mean, really? You want to essentially throw out the idea of build diversity (something even top tier players have been asking for) and slap on a bandaid just for the sake of creating a shortcut to “balance”? So not only would we only get one map to play on at a time, but we’d also only get one or two builds to play with per class? And you think this would somehow make the game better and more fun to play/watch?

And these are the kinds of ideas separating the 1% from the 99%?

I think some people need to take a bite or two of some humble pie, as clearly anybody seems to be capable of contributing poorly constructed ideas…

There’s no reason to just give Necros a full/half/any LF at the start of the match. That’s just encouraging the mindless play that everyone has been complaining of lately.

The issue resides in the Necros dependence on Life Force and Death Shroud for survivability and their inablity to sustain themselves without it. This is why Necros make horrible bunkers. They essentially have to die popping all their CDs for gaining LF before they can come back and actually be capable of fighting.

Tbh, Necros don’t need to be sitting in DS more often and for longer, they need ways to survive without it.

My suggestion: accelerate the LF gains and expenses by 2 or 3 times it’s current rate. This would make it a utility based mechanic rather than both utility and the sole source of survivability. Then you can start moving the survivability/mobility aspects of the class into the trait lines and utility skills and allow the class to be more than a team supported neutron bomb.

running around with base HP in this day and age? You kittenes be CRAZY!!!

I think what we’re experiencing with Necros and condis in general is just a matter of the meta pendulum swinging full the other way. Previously it had swung towards power builds and Quickness, which was killing people so fast that condi/attrition builds weren’t really allowed the time to engage in actual attrition fights. Since the nerf to quickness the pendulum has started swinging back the other way, and now we find ourselves one-shotting people with condition burst.

My guess is we’ll see some broad as well as focused mechanic changes to conditions on the whole. I could see Fear being changed to behave more like Immobilizes in which it doesn’t stack in duration with each application – I’d like to see the same done for Daze. I also wouldn’t be surprised to see damage coefficients changed, particularly regarding Burning, as well as some duration adjustments to conditions like Blind and Weakness now that they’re finally making a difference in combat. The only Necro specific change I could see is a decrease in Terror’s damage boost from the current 50% to maybe 20-25%. It’s niche usage and very limited up time warrants a high damage coefficient but depending on their approach with other conditions it could be up for some adjustments.

galandor.1059:

hackks.3687:

Rfreak.6591:

@hackks.3687

Dude, this isn’t a matter of “can” or “can’t”, the necro can do all of the above, better and faster, if you want a condition-based engineer you may as well switch to necro because it does the same thing but better.

You can’t compare a class that has to go through all the skillbar, throwing everything around and doing miracles while you get outdamaged by a single auto#1.

Are you seriously comparing engi pistol’s #1 to necro’s #1? the simple fact that pistol’s base bleed is 2s makes it sub-par and impossible to stack, what do you want to cover a 3s confusion?

If you want to play engi in a serious pvp perspective you either run condi-grenades and elixirs or power-rifle with heavy CC (with bombs).

I think you might need to play a bit more Necro before continuing on with your tirade. You’re grossly misrepresenting the characteristics and play of both classes. There is far more capability within the Engi arsenal than there is in Necro’s whose only viable role has revolved around team fight damage dealing.

I’m not saying there aren’t some broken mechanics in question when it comes to this new Necromancer, but it has nothing to do with anything you, or anyone else for that matter, has pointed out.

There is? I have totally benched my HGH engineer in favor of the Necromancer. Bursting people down with conditions shouldn’t be possible but with a Necromancer stacking burning/torment/terror you can absolutely obliterate someone in just a few seconds.

I tabled my HGH engi build ages ago when I got tired of eating 10k eviscerates and getting kitten slapped by thieves with my own 25 stacks of might. It’s true that particular build did in fact fill the same role that Necro has now taken – it’s not the first time the two have competed for the aoe/cleave team fighter role.

To be clear though, that is the only role that a Necro is viable for. Just like an HGH engi needs a team to look after them, so too does the Necro – in fact, I’d say even more so. The luxury that Engis still retain though is the ability diversify their builds to multiple ends. You don’t see roaming Necros solo assaulting far point in high end tourneys, nor do you see them bunkering home point or any point for that matter. Just like you don’t see them throwing out tons of regen, waterfields, or other team sustaining effects – they have a couple condi clears they can offer but only one of those remains viable (Putrid Mark) in current meta.

So in fact there is one current thing that Necros do better than Engis and that’s condi cleave and condition burst i.e. deal condition damage. For a class that is the so called “master of conditions” (since it really offers nothing else to be master of) it makes sense to me that it not be outshined by the guy with all the gadgets and explosives and millions of tools that actually benefit a team in addition to itself. Mark my words, the Necro damage will get toned down, even if just slightly, and when it does it will be back on the bench and viewed as a liability to a team and the Engi will happily jump back into that spot.

If you haven’t got a grasp on the “road map” you either need to watch more SoTG’s or just start paying attention.

No, not everything was perfectly polished and in place at release, but a lot of the things that weren’t present then are present now, and what still remains absent, will likely be here shortly.

Some people just like to complain though…

Rfreak.6591:

@hackks.3687

Dude, this isn’t a matter of “can” or “can’t”, the necro can do all of the above, better and faster, if you want a condition-based engineer you may as well switch to necro because it does the same thing but better.

You can’t compare a class that has to go through all the skillbar, throwing everything around and doing miracles while you get outdamaged by a single auto#1.

Are you seriously comparing engi pistol’s #1 to necro’s #1? the simple fact that pistol’s base bleed is 2s makes it sub-par and impossible to stack, what do you want to cover a 3s confusion?

If you want to play engi in a serious pvp perspective you either run condi-grenades and elixirs or power-rifle with heavy CC (with bombs).

I think you might need to play a bit more Necro before continuing on with your tirade. You’re grossly misrepresenting the characteristics and play of both classes. There is far more capability within the Engi arsenal than there is in Necro’s whose only viable role has revolved around team fight damage dealing.

I’m not saying there aren’t some broken mechanics in question when it comes to this new Necromancer, but it has nothing to do with anything you, or anyone else for that matter, has pointed out.

Rfreak.6591:

@Blaine Tog.8304

Of course pointing out every single weapon that doesn’t have projectiles on #1 makes a point right? no, because they aren’t nearly as effective as necromancer’s scepter#1.

You know full well what i mean, but want to get into the tiniest of details for the sake of having something to argue about.

Oh and about engies, of course you can use pistol’s #3, 4, 5 (which require 10 point for reduced CD), switch to grenades (which requires 30 points and an utility slot), quickly throw #2, 3, 4, 5 (I was talking about BOMBS btw, sorry if you are using the usual gimmick grenade-elixir build), while keeping track of 2-3 enemies fighting against you (all alone) own’em, travel in time to own them once more and maybe fly right? OH! but-but! you’d still be less effective than a necromancer spamming #1, you happy now? (I’m serious about this last statement, and you’d be much less bulky without a doubt, only effective in zergs or surprise attacks).

Because… condition engies are bulky? no
they burst condition? no
they have CCs while not using a rifle? no

Seriously I have over 400 wins on my engi I think it’s you that gotta L2P.

Yes, condition Engis can be bulky. Throw on some Undead runes and a Rabid amulet and see for yourself. Better than that though, they have access to perma swiftness, perma vigor, and 2 stacking sources of regen.

Yes, Engis can condition burst. They were the first to do, by having all damaging conditions available to them prior to this last patch. Nothing has changed in that dept. The only thing that has changed was the survivabilty within the builds that took a huge hit with the elixir R nerf.

Yes, Engis can build for condis and CC. You have your Big Ol Bomb, and Supply Crate, and then you take your OH pistol and trade it for a Shield, if you need more you can slot Flame Thrower for the Knock back as well as the nice perk of its tool belt skill, Incendiary Ammo.

So you’re griping about a weapon auto attack that stacks bleeds? Like your Pistol #1 doesn’t do the same, or Ranger’s Shortbow doesn’t do the same. Yes, Necros have Epidemic and that’s probably one of the most OP skills at the moment for condi cleave, but that seems to have nothing to do with your argument. Honestly, I’m not really sure what you’re carrying on about at all.

And for what it’s worth: I have 1500+ matches on my Engi, and another 1500+ on my Necro, and 2000+ wins.

Rfreak.6591:

Keep in mind I’m not raging here, I simply want to answer WHY I’m playing a necromancer all night long in pvp either why people should.

Here is why Necromancers are being viewed as OP:

1: it’s not Dhuumfire
2: it’s not Terror

It’s the Whole condition spamming capabilities coupled with heavy CC all while KEEPING a lot of utility and anti-meta skills.

A dhuumfire necromancer can burst… a condition build that burst, that doesn’t make much sense does it? but that’s not all.

While some people pointed out that engineers had access to the same traits they didn’t consider many other things like:

The fact that as an engineer you WANT reduced CD on rifle or pistol, and probably the AoE-boost trait for bombs if you take bomb kit, then elixirs’ traits if you want some kind of defense against conditions… so… after wasting literally 40 trait points into CD and a single condition cleanser (all just to make any build VIABLE) you can finally go with damage, but engineers need mastertraits for those so they simply can’t be a burst spec.

I’d also like to mention how Pistols’ bleeds last a base 2s duration, how skill description states it’s cast in 1/2 while it actually is 3/4, and especially how poison dart’s volley doesn’t land correctly on targets, making it VERY hard to land some poison condition.

Now the necro… the necromancer can literally auto-spam plenty of stacks of bleeds in a matter of seconds, thanks to its very short cast-time it’s very fast but that’s not everything, have you guys ever noticed it’s… the ONLY ranged weapon in game that doesn’t have PROJECTILES? and is thus not counterable by positioning and reflections?

And it’s also hard to notice in crowded situations.

Keeping in mind that poison affects enemies’ heals lowering them, the burns, the condition duration, a single CC, maybe a couple literally win a fight because the opponent can’t keep up with CC+condition.

Now we’ll bring to the table the defenses of a necromancer… while being able to auto-spam your “purpose” you have plenty of time and attention to keep track of everything that happens around you (thing that would be literally impossible on an engineer, especially while using bombs), and while an engineer would have to waste an utility slot or 2 for offensive (a kit, maybe 2 and slick shoes or something similar) and 1 for defensive/stomping (elixir S), the necromancer can bring the fearsome (no pun intended) spectral wall, which, on such a short CD is quite strong, coupled with other spectral skills can boost your Death shroud dramatically allowing you extra fears, damage and especially bulkyness.

The best elite for a condition based necromancer is without a doubt the flesh golem, because the knockdown time it allows is more than enough to burst down someone.

Now, to top it all you need an anti-meta skill, and looks like there’s STILL space on our skillbar, which is probably going to fit a well of power (this isn’t actually strong because at this point you can’t trait for it, but it’s without a doubt “enough” and AoE, meaning it affects your allies too), oh and, did I mention Deathly swarm (for more condition clearing)? this means necromancers are bulky, can support, can still burst heavily, got CC AND condition removal… sure they aren’t impervious to CC but you gotta admit that’s counterable with DS anyway so… how are we supposed to counter’em? that’s right, you can’t, at least you can’t if it’s a good necromancer.

flow.6043:

^ all of this is true.

nope. it’s not even remotely true

just a bunch more misconceptions and misleading generalizations

Ostricheggs.3742:

Also, necros are very survivable IMO. At least compared to engis, the class that held the same role previously, necros are gods among men by comparison. The amount of damage they can dish out for how survivable they are is impossible to achieve by an engineer… While it may be one of their substantial weaknesses, it’s far stronger than anything else comparatively.

wow, do you really feel that way? I have the exact opposite feeling about my Engi. He does everything my Necro can’t. i.e. escape, evade, and heal. I feel like my Engi can bring far more to a team fight in addition to the mad deeps, unlike my Necro who just brings a couple big nukes.

@ OE’s #2 – I don’t think this is going to have the effect you’re looking for. The current FOTM builds don’t rely as heavily on DS as other builds that might rely on it to sustain themselves for the purposes of, say, bunkering a point. If a Necro loses all LF on death, then when a bunker Necro is unseated from a point, he’ll be coming back to said point essentially defenseless, unlike other classes who could return to the point with everything on full recharge.

As well, the reason to “save it for later rather than use it now” is because once a train starts on the Necro there are only two outcomes, a.) they get saved by their team, b.) they die painfully and respawn. DS in those instances is merely prolonging the inevitable. A lack of disengages is likely always going to be an issue for Necros given their intended design, so their potency within a stationary fight is meant to make up for this.

As is, a Necro starts every match with 0 LF anyways, and if a team is conscientious of this they can deny a Necro any meaningful amount of LF anyways. Removing LF on death would not only make this easier to achieve but make it a viable strategy for hard countering the class. Result: Necro goes back to the bench and insert next FOTM.

As far as Terror is concerned, I’ve always felt that having the damage cycle start on the 0 count was a bit OP. Specially now that Doom’s Fear is over two seconds when only investing 30 points in Spite and the target is within 600 units. 3x Terror ticks within 2 seconds, a chance to proc Burning (this happens a lot if they’ve invested 15 points into curses for the minor trait that grants Fury when entering DS), and 2sec of control is an awful lot to have on a single skill. I’d say the range should be reduced to 300 units and/or remove the damage tick on the zero count and begin the damage cycle after the first full second has passed. This would offer essentially a 33% reduced damage on the skill as well as offer some counter play in allowing a full second to break the Fear before taking the damage.

I’ve never actually been a vocal proponent of adding more game modes (I actually prefer Conquest), but since the release of Skyhammer, and looking back on the semi-failed attempt of Spirit Watch, I can’t help but think that these two maps in particular might be better served by removing the Conquest/Capture Point mechanics entirely so people can focus more on the havoc and mayhem that comes from the secondary objective and distinct map mechanics themselves. In short, why not just let Spirit Watch be capture the flag, and Skyhammer a bumper-cars-style King of Hill?

This seems like a “two birds, one stone” opportunity for ANet. People have been wanting different game modes for a while, and these two maps in particular seem to struggle only because of the requisite conquest mechanics, so why not remove the troublesome conquest portions and let people have their fun on a non-conquest map? They don’t have to be part of ranked matches necessarily, and to be honest nobody really plays ranked matches like they mean anything these days anyways because for all intents and purposes…. they don’t mean anything – leaderboard is worthless, and the “real” tourneys are held in custom arenas and make no actual reference to the leaderboard or ranks.

So my suggestion is, why not just stop trying to fit square pegs into round holes and let them be what they actually are, which is what a lot of people want anyways i.e. new game modes?

I dunno, just my .02

There’s nothing wrong with Dhuumfire. Burning is just overly strong in general, hence why everyone and their brother uses it, and I don’t mean just Necros.

What needs to be toned down is the instant nuke that is Terror damage. Remove the damage tick on the zero count after application and only start the damage once a full second has passed. Voila! Now it isn’t an instant front loaded no-skill nuke, but rather a back loaded semi-avoidable nuke, that takes some actual thinking to use effectively.

Next, add 10 sec to Epidemic CD and reduce the cast time by .25 sec. Voila! Necro aoe cleave has been toned down.

Sigil of paralyzation changes will be nerf enough to the uber terrormancer builds.

Simple, easy balance changes that don’t set Necros back 10 months.

So you guys don’t play much of the other classes, huh? I get the impression that Necros are so used to the “dog’s eye view” of class balance (i.e. always looking up at everyone else) that they can’t seem to fathom being able to do what pretty much every other class has been doing since release.

There are some minor tweaks needed to add a little counter play to some skills, and adjust for the new Weakness and Blind fixes (I won’t call them buffs since they were completely useless before) but what you guys are calling OP has been well within the realm of possibility for every other class since release.

We just got buffed out of obscurity, and you people want to be sent straight back… lulz

IMO I feel like the best way to balance Terror atm is to remove the initial damage tick. The first tick is the only instance of damage that has no counter play to it. Either that or don’t allow certain Fear dealing skills to crit whereby they can proc Burn.

Fear durations and terror builds will take another hit when Paralyzation no longer effects Fear’s duration.

Other than that, I don’t see anything needing to be changed in the offensive department. The people worked up about the damage output, specially those who “main necro”, clearly haven’t spent enough time playing other classes where 3-4 skills to nuke someone in a glass cannon build is status quo.

There’s also no reasoning for removing Fire from Necros. They got it and they deserved it. Everyone else is using it, it makes sense that the kings of conditions would have it too. That being said, Burn damage itself is too high IMO.

As Kryshade said, moving Terror to GM status does nothing but limit Necro’s options further. None of the old issues of survivability have been addressed, but we now have a bandaid in being able to kill someone before they can kill us. If ANet want’s people to stop running glass cannon builds, then perhaps they ought to offer something in the escapability/survivability departments so that there’s another choice available for improving a Necro’s self-sustainability. Until there is one, the best option will still be to roll as glass cannon and just kill them before they can kill you.

Burning is not going anywhere. I wouldn’t worry about that.

I don’t see removing the 50% bonus damage as “messing with condition builds”. Even without burning, we still have the addition of Torment, and the new aoe immob on Tainted Shackles, Wells on shorter CDs, in addition to Signet of Spite change… I mean there’s all kinds of ways to do crazy damage now. It would just be nice to have some options at the other end of the trait lines to make choosing between damage and utility a little harder. Right now all out damage is our best utility and the only way we live up to our intended design.

moving traits isn’t really an option at this point, and moving Terror up to GM level won’t accomplish anything in terms of balance. If anything it would further limit build diversity by placing our two strongest traits at one end of the build spectrum.

Terror’s damage increase likely needs to be removed since it was a holdover from when Terror was intended to bandaid our poor condition output. Doom now only requires 30% duration increase while within 600 range to gain the extra damage tick, and with burning on top of it we’ve gained roughly a 150% damage increase on a single combo.

Keep in mind though that as far as glass cannon builds go, our current hybrid build isn’t that far above status quo.

miriforst.1290:

@Shiyo-And yet there is a thread above or below with necros whining about automated response.

@hackks- the problem is that the necro currently fits thqat description perfectly!
They burst you while keeping you CCed from fear (breaking one is followed by another).
The sheer dps put up in such a low amount of time with the CC and base durability they got puts the fight in their favor in both 1 vs 1 and teamfights. Who will do the job you described above better than another necro?
The counter is basically to train them before he realizes he is in a bad spot.

The problem is that as it is now they win the war of burst/CC and the war of attrition, 1vs1 or xvsx.

Necro’s aren’t really effected nearly as much by other Necro burst, mostly due to their already massive HP pool – people really undervalue Vitality and it’s effectiveness against condi’s. Eating a terror burst with 24k+ HP (that’s what my Necro has currently) really isn’t all that devastating. When I play a condi build on my Engi the last thing I want to fight is a condi Necro, just because I know I won’t hurt their massive HP pool with my condi burst unless they totally kitten up. No one should want to fight a Necro as a condi based attrition build without something that exploits one of their major weaknesses. The CC chain from a Necro is fairly easily broken as well. A Shatter Mesmer or Theif are far more efficient at killing a Necro.

Sure, 1v1 a Necro is stonger now than they were previously, but still no where near the efficacy of some other classes. There’s nothing wrong with Necros being a competent 1v1 class. They’re designed to make your life hell if you engage one on your own without a proper build designed to exploit their vast and gaping weaknesses.

And as I said, I’m not advocating that Necro damage is fine as is. They got a lot of buffs that reshaped the way they do damage, and they didn’t get anything toned down from their previous design to accommodate balance. Their bleed application rate is far too high atm (specially with Scepter), and this is a carry over from their previous iterations where bleed was their primary/sole source of condi damage. Terror’s bonus damage is likely overkill now as well with the addition of Burning, as Terror was originally a bandaid fix to help bolster Necro’s formerly lacking condi damage output. Burn in general, not necessarily specific to Necros, is likely in need of toning down as well – there’s a reason so many people include it in their builds atm.

That being said, by and large the complaints coming from people about Necros shows they have little to no understanding of how the class actually works. Not to mention this mass breakout of amnesia across the entire community of what Necro’s massive weaknesses are.

This thread in general is just a giant QQ fest that wreaks of L2P. Yes, the damage is fubar’d atm, but not one post in this thread has actually pointed to anyone tangible aspect of their mechanics/skills as being the culprit. Hence, “I died in PvP to a Necro, this never happened before, Nerf Necros!!!!111”. <sigh>

you can out play condition builds. it’s called CC + Burst. every condition/attrition build, even the ones with condi burst, relies on time and outliving their opponent. you beat them by denying them the time it takes to apply and kill you with conditions. Necros are supposed to be the kings of attrition, which is true to a degree, however, this is also why they can get blown the kitten up even with a huge HP pool to Thieves, Mesmers, and even Warriors (when they aren’t sucking), because they deny the Necro the ability to extend the fight by stunning and bursting them down. It’s the same concept for killing HGH Engis or any attrition based build in the game.

I’m not saying some of Necro’s damage output isn’t broken at the moment, or that condis themselves might be a little out of hand, but people are trying to beat attrition builds with their own attrition builds it seems, and that in itself is a huge mistake

From Miriam-Webster

Definition of SUSTAIN

1
: to give support or relief to
2
: to supply with sustenance : nourish
3
: keep up, prolong
4
: to support the weight of : prop; also : to carry or withstand (a weight or pressure)
5
: to buoy up <sustained by hope>
6
a : to bear up under
b : suffer, undergo <sustained heavy losses>
7
a : to support as true, legal, or just
b : to allow or admit as valid <the court sustained the motion>
8
: to support by adequate proof : confirm <testimony that sustains our contention>

yeah, I guess it’s got a lot of uses

So this is what “Good/Top” PvP Engis talk about on the forums, huh?

/disappointed

Ultima.8673:

necro over the top!
but since when did engineers get ride the lightning with alltime 20 sec cd ?

16 seconds when traited

it’s soooooo much kittening fun!!!!

Caffynated.5713:

I don’t get comparing necros to old HGH engi. They have most of the same damaging condis and the necro doesn’t run around with 25 stacks of might.

Necros can’t handle people getting in their face and chain CCing them. If you pop stability and watch for corrupt boon, you really should never lose 1v1 against a necro.

you can run with 20+ stacks of might on Necro easy. I was doing it last night. 30/20/10/0/10 , utilities BiP, Spectral Walk, Well of Suffering, Lich Form; Carrion Amulet, 2x Fire/2x Strength/ 2x Hoelbrak; Sigil of Battle on Staff and OH Focus, Sigil of Minor Accuracy on MH Axe or Dagger (I chose Axe for the added LF gain on #2 since there’s only 10pts in SR)

just an FYI

edit: had the wrong well in there, was supposed to be suffering…

I discovered last night that Rocket Boots can jump over Spectral Wall without being hit by the Fear. yay Rocket Boots!!!!

Also, dodging through marks will avoid them entirely.

Warjin.8942:

Kryshade.6075:

FEARS AND TERROR WERE NOT BUFFED IN THIS PATCH. FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY PLEASE REALIZE THIS PEOPLE!

/facepalm

Fear dura went up 30% from what I heard, correct me if I’m wrong.

It’s funny though, for the last year I have never been hit by so many back to back fears by a single Necro until this patch, I swear no lie I went from 100-0 in a fear spam and I have 29k health on my Warrior, this happen to me more then once on all my characters.

Put 20pts into Defense for Last Stand and you’ll never have to deal with it again. Or you could just stun break the Fear yourself and not eat the damage. Necros have nothing else that requires a stun break so no need to try and hold on to it.

the problem is people get too attached to builds. when there’s large sweeping changes such as occurred in this last patch people want to hold on to their previous build because they liked it/thought it was powerful/were comfortable playing with it. then they get instagibbed because other people are running new classes/builds/etc. that they’re not used to accounting for with their old builds/playstyles that they’d oh so love to continue playing. hence the calls for “NERF IT!!111”

We’ve gone through this before when Necros brought their well bombs and the whole team had to protect them, and everyone will remember that stun and burst exists in the game and will focus the Necro mercilessly a the start of every engagement and then teams will get tired of babysitting them and switch their comps to something that counters. This is just version 2.0.

ummm because it’s completely kittening imbalanced rofl

I sort of feel like I got kicked out of the team fight and sent off to the side points, but then I remember that I wasn’t in fact kicked… it was just my rocket boots

seriously though rifle/roamer has never had it so good, and prior to this patch I wouldn’t have even bothered taking a rifle into a real match (even if I really wanted to). previously if I specced condis and R (which eventually became my only viable build) it was because I knew I could stroll up to a point and kill pretty much anything, sometimes two anythings. We were turning into a faceroll class with condis and it in all honesty needed it’s wings clipped. Heal Turret + R with an kitten load of condi applications and high vigor up time was just beastly. to the point of almost being a one-man show.

Necros are kinda swoopin in for our spot at the moment, but it’s probably overdue. It’s happened before when smoke bombs got nerfed and R was nerfed (the first time), then Necros came along with their Well bombs and we got ushered off to the side points or hotjoins for a while. We’ll be back though. Have no fear… (I really didn’t intend this as a pun, but I like it so I’ll leave it)

I’ve been using this in tPvP: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-V70;2cPkk0u57QFx0;9;4T9-9J46A5;30;025-L;5sV2DsV2D5Be

mobility is godly, the blast finisher from rocket boots works nice with heal turret and tool belt, S is there for stomps and avoiding burst. looks glassy, but played right it can be a nightmare to try and kill.

haven’t dug back into condi builds yet. Too many Necros out there at the moment and getting into a condi battle with one is never a good idea. I have some ideas though, just gonna give it a week or so before I start trying them in practice.

Lordrosicky.5813:

kitten s.7421:

You know that Terror doesnt do more damage the more conditions people have on them right? I have never seen terror do the insane damage people say it does and it is Legitly impossible to 100-0 someone with fear. Pics/video or its just kittenes qqing because they cant take 3 damage utility skills anymore

Have you seen the death shroud combo you can do? Seriously. You can do this:

Scepter 2 – bleeds, burning, cripple, weakness
Marks 2,3,5 – more bleeds, chill, poison, then fear

So you have them with like 10 bleeds, chill, burning, cripple and weakness and fear for almost 2 seconds. Then you can do a ds combo timed for when the fear wears off:

ds 2 straight into 3 then channel 5. Or some combo of that. You can literally do the whole ds combo whilst projectile 2 is on route to basically own so hard. O and hello AOE IMMOB on ds5. lol. Ranger get it as an op elite. We get it on a 40s cd….

Then you are out of ds (with fury and retal probably lol!) and can switch into s/d again for some more spam. More burning, more weakness, more bleed, blinds, poison.

And guess what. They are dead.

No skill. No fun.

do you read what you write? you ran through a chain of skills (omg they apply condis!) and three weapon swaps (counting DS) with specific timings… and you say that takes no skill? It’s not like they’re AI chucking Phantasm Mesmers or lol-I-LoS-while-my-pet-kills-you BM Rangers of old. OMG they’re actually playing the class! What a concept!! lol

nothing but drama queens in these forums…

I wonder if people are using similar/same builds as what they were using prior to the patch. This would be a mistake in my opinion, since the meta prior to the patch was largely based on attrition – something Necros accel at, and can rip to shreds now with their improvements. For instance, prior to the patch I ran condis, with high toughness, high vigor, and a good deal of cleansing almost exclusively on my engi – I wanted to run a power rifle burst build but it felt too ineffective against so many attrition builds. Now I’m running a power roaming burst build with high mobility and a good amount of CC (KB/Immob) with my only cleanse coming from Healing Turret and the chill/cripple/immob removal from Rocket boots and I have had almost no issue destroying Necros. Why? Because Necros are still incredibly weak to CC and burst as well as still having kitten poor mobility. Would I want to run condi’s against them? Hell no! Nor should anyone else, since a condi Necro will always have the advantage in that fight.

In other words, things have changed and if you haven’t it’s probably a good idea to consider it.

yeah net turret before the patch was crazy strong. drop a supply crate and you could lock a person down for 12+ seconds. I had a lot of lolz with the night before the patch. pistols + nades + net turret…. omg the people that died… lol cracks me up just thinking about it

in all honesty though, it’s probably more to do with people playing new/different/changed builds. this balance patch was substantial to say the least. I basically threw out all my old builds and embraced the new. Most people are probably doing the same to a degree. So it’s more likely that what used to work then isn’t likely to work now.

More like flavor of the week. Just give it some time for people to remember to kill the Necro first. A little CC still goes a long way against Necros.

Also, just save your stun break for the Fear. You don’t want to eat the damage obviously, and the window between uses is fairly big. once they’ve blown it they don’t have much but conditions. CC + Burst = win.

And if all else fails, just run away. They still can’t pursue for kitten.

blinds have always been there, they just never really mattered before because 1 spamming at nothing would clear it. blind now functions the way it should have in the first place. nothing OP about it. it’s just like aegis, gotta knock it off with an AA before unloading the show.

the animation could definitely be smoothed out at the end, but over all it’s an incredible skill now.

one thing I have noticed though that I am sure is a bug is if you swap our of a kit mid animation when you land your forward movement will be canceled and keeps you rooted for a second. the timing is some what finicky but I’ve reproduced repeatedly in HotM, and experienced it a few times in actual matches.

well bomb the downed player?

HGH engis are rare these days, and a necro should be eating them alive regardless.

Reikou.7068:

Deified.7520:

I have an auto elixir S skill that pops it by itself. He bursted me so down so quickly it didn’t pop. I know the internal CD on it and I know that it was off of CD.

Stop relying on passive play.

This is the problem, and what is being discussed is obviously a huge L2P issue.

lol this^ coming from the guy with “Mesmer” listed on the top of his signature.

the amount of bullkitten and hypocrisy in this thread is astounding

to the OP: for the next few days until the balance patch spec for pistols, rabid ammy, and undead runes, with elixir r and whatever kit you like. in the current meta, unless you’re playing one of the “chosen” burst classes then condis and attrition are your best option. gl

downed state isn’t going anywhere. the entire game is balanced around it. it’s a fundamental core of the game play, not something you turn on/off. removing it would be like taking 10 steps back.

Geff.1930:

What people don’t realize is that a 10 stack bleed or a high condition build burn does more damage than eviscerate in the same amount of time it takes for eviscerate to land. Ofcourse, they don’t see the big numbers on screen and therefore do not QQ.

In high condition dmg builds:

Burn = ~700 dmg/sec
Bleed = ~120 dmg/sec/stack

Eviscerate = instant cast 300 range leap

Now if you’ve played recently against a warrior with boon hate and were playing a boon heavy build then you know Eviscerate will take anywhere from 6k to 10k of your HP in a single shot.

So now, can you please tell me how a single tick of burn damage or even 10 ticks of bleed damage equates to 6-10k worth of damage in a single second?

Grackleflint.4956:

Ostricheggs.3742:

Yea, evades in general are at times a bit over the top and it’s not just dodge rolls (I’m looking at you, rangers). It’s a pretty big balance issue, especially considering how important evades are. Vigor as well. Mesmers get a free vigor on crit trait for a measly FIVE points up their most important tree. Sigil of energy is used relatively ubiquitously for a kitten good reason.

Worst of all it appears like not a lot of thought has been put into it from a-net. I wouldn’t consider cutting the invulns on dodge just yet but I would definitely think about hampering access to vigor as well as the strength of it in general (that isn’t to even mention protection, why that thing hasn’t been nerfed is beyond me)

I like you Ostrich, but sometimes I feel like you really want to make the Engineer inaccessible to anyone who doesn’t have 8 hours a day to play (just going off of your 2000 hours played since release that you mentioned in the Engenious podcast). Constantly shouting about how OP we are, and now an offhand remark about nefing Protection. Stop helping, man. Protection is one of the few defensive buffs we can reliably count on, and even then only when there aren’t 1 or more S/D thieves prowling the map. So, ease up. Not everyone can put in the 40/week you do.

I believe he was referring to all classes in general within the current meta-game, not specifically of Engis. At least that’s the way it reads to me.

RE: topic – IMO, extra (read: not endless) dodging makes combat more exciting and interesting (for both viewers and players) and increases the need for thoughtful and intelligent game play. Evades/Invulns on attack skills however do the opposite, allowing players to cover their mistakes or even play recklessly by essentially attacking with impunity, or just being near un-hittable. Neither of which are the sole or mutual issue since the utilization of both varies from class to class. The availability of teleports, stealth, leaps, etc. need to also be considered in regards to this issue owing to the fact that immobilizes are intended to counter successive dodging, though they can be negated by evades/invulns and teleports. Obviously any build that can include the maximum amount of dodging, mutliple evade/invuln skills, and teleports (in their current capacity, acting as both mini-stun break and negating immobs) has the potential to be virtually un-hittable.

So no, I don’t think dodging and vigor are the issue. Evades/invulns on weapon skills are a poor design choice, but also are not the issue. Teleports (specially those located on weapons) are currently far too effective, though they also are not the issue . However, builds that can make effective use of all three of these are definitely the issue. And since these are only available to a select few classes then it stands to reason that none of these are “too accessible” in general as OP asks, but are clearly too accessible to those few who can utilize them all in conjunction while still playing a viable role within the team.

regardless of build, phantasm damage is simply too high for a skill that has 900-1200 range, requires no aiming only LoS, has virtually no cost to the Mesmer, is an AI element that requires no input from the player, and will persist on the battlefield and pursue the target unless actively destroyed by the opposition. there’s no reasonable explanation for skills of this kind to deal damage of 4k or better.

personally, I’d like to see the summon skill and the attack skill split into two separate skills the way other AI summons work making the attacks require the players input. There also needs to be a more significant cost/reward for using Phantasms so that it isn’t just fire and forget as it currently is.

Zodian.6597:

hackks.3687:

Zodian.6597:

In my mind, dodge rolling should be meaningful and well timed in execution -its the main thing that separates the men from the boys in tpvp.

Zodian.6597:

I hate the feeling I get when my enemies get a random dodge off that saves them from a huge burst or cc skill that should have punished them severely (like an eviscerate on warrior or a 3 clone mind wrack on mesmer)

placing such emphasis on the skill of well timed dodging, and then discounting that same skill when it so happens to avoid your burst skills. lol

sorry, the hypocrisy was too much. had to point it out.

imo most people just use dodge when it’s up. They don’t wait for the burst skill or count cooldowns. It’s almost like “oh no this guys in range” evade evade. You can tell when someone is using it in a reactionary/skillful way because they will often use it after a skill animation has begun (like avoiding a bulls rush – 100b combo, you have to dodge just milliseconds before the bulls rush hits you), instead of just using it as a gap closer/to kite aimlessly and getting lucky.

No hypocrisy was intended, I do realize how my statements could be taken that way lol. Lucky rando dodges have been and always will be present in PvP (even i’m guilty of this bad habit at times), but at the moment they are hardly punished. -Sorry I wasn’t more clear about this in the original post, it was late and I don’t think a read it back to myself to realize how silly I sounded lol.

I knew it wasn’t intended, but the devil’s advocate in me just couldn’t let it go without pointing it out, even though you were raising a valid point. no offense intended

KrisHQ.4719:

I STRONGLY encourage everybody to try the new Dragon Ball Arena when the foodbuff bug has been fixed.
In there you have absolutely no vigor or other sources of endurance regeneration other than the standard.
If you have been playing PvP for as long as me or even longer, you will quickly notice how much you’re actually dependant on vigor in regulalr pvp.
In Dragon Ball you actually have to use your dodges wisely, and I often find myself spamming the dodge key, because I just randomly used them as gap closers or for similar sillyness.

unnecessary. just play a Necro. you’ll either learn to choose your dodges wisely or rage quit.

Zodian.6597:

In my mind, dodge rolling should be meaningful and well timed in execution -its the main thing that separates the men from the boys in tpvp.

Zodian.6597:

I hate the feeling I get when my enemies get a random dodge off that saves them from a huge burst or cc skill that should have punished them severely (like an eviscerate on warrior or a 3 clone mind wrack on mesmer)

placing such emphasis on the skill of well timed dodging, and then discounting that same skill when it so happens to avoid your burst skills. lol

sorry, the hypocrisy was too much. had to point it out.

Getting back on topic though, I have no real issue with dodging and high vigor up time. Dodging is an active way for players to defend themselves, and given the amount and rate of burst attacks flying around a match it seems to make for more interesting play than everyone just turtle-bunkering and relying on passive defenses.

Attack skills that evade or negate damage are questionable though and seem counterintuitive to PvP in general. IMO, the crux of PvP akittens simplest, it’s core, is the same as that of boxing: punch and counter-punch. Attacking your opponent is intended to be a risk/reward choice in which you knowingly open yourself up to the possibility of being countered for the opportunity of possibly wounding your foe and tilting the fight in your favor, putting the emphasis on skillful attacking and counter-attacking. Building evades and invulns into attack skills completely disrupts that logic by removing half of the play. Is it advantageous to bypass the risk in pursuit of the reward? Of course! Hence why S/d Thieves are gaining popularity, Mesmers won’t leave home without a main-hand sword, and BM Rangers will never kill anything since it’s not required as they just spam evades with little intention of actually dealing damage or posing a threat while waiting for their pet to kill you (this being the worst offender IMO as they don’t even try to disguise the passivity of their build and it’s corresponding play style – virtually the complete antithesis of what I would consider PvP).

Jackums.3496:

Your concerns would be valid if PvP was balanced around 1v1, which is the only area the phantasm builds excel. However, that’s not the case.

I don’t get this rationalization. In Conquest 1v1’s and small skirms are not only common place but are integral to winning matches. The game might not be balanced solely for “1v1” but it is in fact being balanced for Conquest and that format includes a good deal of 1v1 and small skirming.

Protection: grants 33% dmg reduction for the duration of the boon, stacks in duration, no defined limit of duration

Might: grants 35 power and condition dmg per application, stacks in intensity, limited to 25 stacks

Your argument would preclude that Might granted an equivalent damage increase to Protection’s damage reduction per each application, as well as having equivalent access to both. As we can see, however, it doesn’t.

Maybe it bugs you because there’s no logical/sensible way to compare two boons that function completely different from one another?

Thesilentflute.8761:

So it comes out to the stat gain of about 87.5 trait points that is in addition to gear and actual trait points. No matter what the cost may be It is a advantage over any other class/spec in tpvp/spvp. I am sure many people would make that trade and auto attack people to death.

huh? you say this like a.) only engi’s can stack might, and b.) stacking might is like a form of cheating.

And hgh “auto attack people” to death? I have no idea where that’s coming from since the last thing an engi relies on is their auto attack. this ain’t no Ranger shortbow spam Tito. Nade’s don’t even have an auto attack. Everyone of them is a skill shot.

try not to play the game faster than it allows. i.e. don’t spam stuff. a little practice with rifle and you won’t have the timing problems and end up interrupting yourself. Rifle is a kittening beast when you get comfortable with it. Far better for 1v1’s and single target bursting than Pistols could ever hope to be. I LOVE the Rifle. Could the “misses” at close range be a little more forgiving? Sure. But mostly it’s just practice and timing.

AOE might not be so prevalent if it wasn’t the only way to combat stealth, rampant clone/AI generation, or offer the best means to contribute to team fights for classes that aren’t bunkers or built to melee gib someone.

Early on after release, aoe was the widely promoted response for everyone asking how to deal with the above issues.

Careful what you wish for I guess…