3 warriors, 1 guardian and 1 ele. I could stop here. I mean, that is as meta as it could get, if it weren’t for the elementalist.
Or point out the thread about healing signet…because it is far too easy for warriors to have such a sustain, compared to the other classes. Even when not having healing power, as the signet itself has such an high base (and relatively low factor for healing power).
Or the threads about the dominance of heavy classes. Heh, while not as good as a zerk build, the warrior can still dish out some nice damage even while tanky. Unlike other classes.Also, in the video we can still see people reflecting damage via blocks due to the trait. More than half the party can do that, as there are 3 warriors. On a relatively short cooldown. And that as well doesn’t depend on gear, yet it blocks a lot of attacks that would have been heavy even for a “tanky” build, speeding also up the fight with the damage reflected. And you block any of those ranged attacks for its duration, as the skill stops blocking after a melee hit – that won’t come until he ends that aoe.
Here’s the catch, though: you can do it only with a few bosses, and only few classes can do it. It wouldn’t have been feasible if it weren’t for the classes chosen, and for a certain degree, that exact boss.Even then, this video is quite useless as far as the matter in question go.
This game has dodges and has all those “strong” defensive abilities, even if they weren’t used on the video.And a powerful boon like protection that greatly reduces damage – albeit, only some classes can reliably give it – but nothing so effective for increasing the damage of a tankier build, and even if there were, it would just exacerbate the issue.
You can make up for the lack of defense via stats because there are a lot of active ones. The same isn’t true for the lack of offense. Especially since control and support aren’t as effective as pure dps, also due to some game mechanics (defiant…meh).
Whole path 2 was done similarly with 2 eles, 1 nec, 1 guard, 1 war. That’s rather far from meta.
Well according to Anet WvW = PVE so all changes there will affect both sides. Makes me want to wait for further gearing my toons untill more details about these changes are known.
Then why aren’t we discussing the dominance of soldier’s gear? Or the uselessness of zerker’s gear?
Not this heavy nonsense again…
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Real-PvE-issue-is-not-zerks/
I already did the math for it here. “Heavy” is irrelevant.
EDIT: darn, forgot this part.
You know the meta with fractals that makes the hammer guardian useful? That’s part of what I’m aiming for. As of right now, using hammer guardian in the overworld and in dungeons is useless, since teammates can just dodge and block whatever is coming. Many people who run fractals don’t do it in full berserker gear for this same reason.
Of course, I hope for this to be done better, and do this without having enemies with ridiculous HP counts.
You seem to assume that I think that difficulty while playing with heavy armour users is easier solely because of their 13% damage reduction in contrast to light armour users. That is completely false.
Both heavy armour users, guardians and warriors are arguably the easiest professions to play at the high level with a lot of room for mistakes. This has nothing to do with their armour but rather sustain, abundance of reflections, easiness of performing optimal dps and many others. Again, if you think it’s a wrong statement, go ahead and test it “live”. I did, with scales 49-79 fotm.
People that do not use hammer guardians in high level fractals while using only full glass cannon builds are often wiping or at least going down randomly in places they shouldn’t.
Also, hammer guardian gameplay is nothing that should aimed for. It’s one of the most boring and least active gameplays in the whole game, probably on the similar level as spirit ranger.
Unless they’ve changed it recently, bosses do scale the amount of damage they do depending on the number of participants. I’m going to go with the wiki + my own experiences on this one when they say enemy stats can be increased. You are also selectively ignoring the points I’ve brought up in my examples, and trying your best to distract from them with irrelevant facets that aren’t even correct half the time. I will not be fooled. Either stay sincere, or take it elsewhere.
They are correct, sorry to make you realise the hard truth but the only stat that is being scaled up is vitality. If you do not believe me guest on dead server, go solo melandru (easiest pre-events) and take a note how much damage you receive by his whirl or any of his attacks. Answer is about 10k with heavy armour and 12k with light armour per hit. Now go with zerg and take the same note. You will receive same amount of damage (within the damage range).
I am selectively correcting you because you are selectively making mistakes.
- Zerkers should wipe more often against bosses than a balanced group.
That’s the case right now. Similarly skilled players in balanced group wipe less often than players playing full glass cannons.
- The dungeons are way too much exploiteable, get a group of hardcore testers and make them test the dungeon before it goes live. I bet they can find a lot of fails.
What would they do with all those testers without any programmers/designers?
still better than having melee tanking supporting ressing and doing dps….
Doesn t sound a deep gameplay to me…
The most similar thing to that nowaday are guardian and mesmer immob skills to keep a target still .
So 4 people pewpewing from the distance with 1 person doing all the job is better than all 5 people doing a bit less job? There’s absolutely no teamwork involved in there. I cannot agree with that. Imagine you are the only melee person in the party and you go down. The whole responsibility for the wipe lies on you.
Keeping the target still is trivial, especially now that you can stack immobilize up to 3 times. Let’s not even brought chill and cripple which certain classes are able to permanently provide (yes, that includes our lovely eles).
Ever seen how to kill Shoggroth the least paintful?
Haviz you Always say how easy and dumb this game is…yet i Always here you defending current system…..
Because you propose even worse changes. The game is too easy but often your propositions would make it even more trivial. Changes are needed but different.
Melee even without buffs will do more dps than ranged….and again we perfectly know that melee full buffed dps melt most bosses so fast that you can kill them before going on full CD with utilities AND having to deal with boss mechanics.
But ranged with buffs will do more dps than melee without it. And that’s what you would get, because ranged characters do not have to kite and be separated from each others when someone else is having aggro. So more damage, no risk and for a guy in melee less damage and full risk. Doesn’t make sense.
This, I have to disagree with. Running zerkers in place that has a steady stream of attacks, such as PVP, makes zerkers an extremely high risk set. Replicating the circumstances would lead to the results. Likewise, the solution is multi-faceted in that enemies will do a whole lot more than just attack rapidly.
The only result you would get is the requirement of more heavy professions, hammer guardians especially. Spamming hammer autoattacks is not exactly extremely risky yet it is the “speed clearing” meta for high level fractals where mobs do have a steady stream of attacks (ascalon, dredges, cliffside) and there is a lot of mobs you fight at the same time so you do not cleave all of them at the same time, unlike in old dungeons.
But that’s absolutely necessary.
Builds are designed to cater a playstile and be used in conjunction with some gear.Full damage trait allocations expect the build to be used for pure offense, so combined with Berserker or any other damage oriented gear. Obal’s build, for example, looks horrible in cleric gear.
However, put the same cleric gear on a 0/0/30/30/10 Hammer/McSh build, designed for tank/sustain, and you get something that can facetank about 2k DPS (even more if allies are in melee to trigger bigger AH heals) without using any active defense, which has a lot btw.
There’s nothing that would prevent you from running berserker’s gear + 0/0/30/30/10 or cleric’s + 15/25/0/5/25. In fact, during my brief adventure with WvW, I used the former one.
Can’t wait!
Great design, right?
aside the fact 5 zerk eles ith the common build dies at spiderqueen at the first immob….
A zerk ele of the most common builds lack stability, cond cleanse and healing
Also has 1-3 seconds skills leaving you unable to evade…4 eles+ 1 guard (or any def support profession) = Amazing
5 ZERK eles = wipe
I solo’d her on my first try as a 30/30/0/0/10 ele without using walls (so no exploits). So how exactly 5 eles equals to the wipe?
wouldn t be good to have BOTH ranged and melee combat in the game?
It would be but they need to increase a punishment for being a ranged. Right now there’s none because bosses often stick to their closest attackers. Unless you prefer a system similar to the one that is present in other mmos, where dps (here ranged players) are being carried by tanks (here melee players) except that tanks have to take care of themselves by themselves instead of relying on healers.
Its boring just because the game makes it boring and pointless.
How does it make a game pointless? If people have fun that it’s not pointless because that’s the ultimate reason for games to exist.
What about for example giving a permanent null field to bosses with 200 range and deleting the range trigger disabling certain attacks? Stacking wouldn t give those fancy boons anymore…
You wouldn’t only get rid of stacking but also melee combat which would only dumb down this game even further (if that’s even possible).
It is either she or he has very female-ish voice and wears female clothes.
So basically, you want zerk to be on par with speed/efficiency with tanky specs. So you want zerk to be high risk/high reward and tank to be low risk/high reward?
Just like in pvp.
Sustain? Do you mean heals? Boons and Heals themselves fall into a strange spot, since while they are not fully active like dodges and blocks, they aren’t fully passive like equipment. Boons are not fully offensive or defensive, either, and often what boons you have are dependent on class specifics more than anything else. Heals are also dependent on class, and don’t discriminate on gear, since the quicker an enemy dies, the less damage you have to heal away.
I categorized regen as passive because you don’t have to time it at all. It stacks in duration, not intensity so there’s virtually no punishment for using it mindlessly (except if you stack it more than 9 times). Traits like soothing mist and adrenal health are passive, there should be no discussion here.
But alas, the reason why I didn’t factor in boons is because they aren’t equipment dependent. I stuck with an apples to apples comparison with Obal’s build to demonstrate stat balance. When you start changing builds, you’re no longer dealing with just berserker vs. other loadouts.
Another fallacy of your opening post. You compared builds while the thread title is about gear.
Heals do not allow you to facetank everything without having to dodge. Some prime examples include the temple events in orr, where the Statue of Dwayna and Priest of Melandru will plow through however much armor and health you have, especially in a zerg. The priest of grenth uses fall damage to bypass your armor, and often will drop you from the roof multiple times, killing you regardless of build. Then there includes the molten facility bosses, who will knock you off of a platform for instant death, and also have their own instant death attacks. Then you have the clockheart, who can obliterate nearly any build with a combination of environmental damage and his big AoE attack…
They do. You can facetank lupi with 0 dodges just by using heals and tanky gear.
Another thing, no boss scales its damage by the number of participants. The always do same amount of damage, disregarding if it is a zerg of a single player.
Melandru, especially in a zerg, stops using any attacks very frequently.
Falling off the platform has nothing to do with this topic.
Clockheart deals about 1,500 dmg with his autoattack. Compare it to high level archdiviner or mossman, it’s about 15-20 times more with a similar frequency.
Skilled players left the game because they couldn’t play tanks/healers like in other games where they were carrying bad dps.
Regretfully.
I’ll be equally happy if they make changes that hurt pvt elitists more than us, poor casual players that play how we want.
People don’t bother with it because of too many puzzles and unskippable cutscenes. How many times do I have to watch it before anet decides it’s enough?
But you gain nothing, that’s the balance issue. A Berserker build will survive just as well (a combination of active defence and shorter fights), but well, shorten the fight! More stuff dead in less time. And less time in which a player could die or cause a wipe by making a mistake.
The game was advertised with active combat. Why would someone who completely disregard that be rewarded the same as someone who puts more effort into it and has less room for errors?
But that’s the OP’s point, in a way. There’s no point gearing/building for what you describe.
You got the active defence anyhow. It’s there whether you want it or not, you cannot spec “out of Dodge”.
So why people are whining? They can complete same content with tanky builds, they can pretend they play other games, they can roleplay they are some kind of tanks and healers, etc.
That’s the thing, ignoring active defence, passive defences are balanced, and what you say makes sense. But the active defence is always there. And including it, balance goes haywire.
If you match berserker’s and soldier’s against each other and none of the active defense would be used, soldier’s wins by a large margin. I wouldn’t say that passive defense are balanced in that case. It’s obvious that without active defense, passive ones are vastly overpowered.
So let me give you a short summary. If you are in melee range you exploit because she doesn’t use venom spray and if you are in high range you also exploit because she doesn’t use entangling web. So the only way to not exploit this boss is to have at least 1 melee and 1 range character so that she would use all of her skills.
step one to the problem: Don’t use exploits to trick the system, and the bosses which we do this, will certainly show a lot more challenging.
step 2: ?
step3: problem solved, and the game is better than ever right?
Ah, yea. Exploits called being in melee range.
Should probably also point out that this thread is for pve zerkers, and the pve zerker meta isn’t really a problem when defending garrisons in wvw..
Maybe he meant defending the garrison during the human’s tutorial?
Really? And you’ll go bash some mobs before jumping in to defend garri? And were should we get 25 might stacks up 24/7 unless when in a zerg? There’s hardly a moment when I do have 25 might stacks up. We don’t all have Guardians.
Are you talking about WvW? Because this thread is called “PvE Zerkers”.
Truth. Because everyone has access to damage mitigation through dodges, blocks, blinds… there’s no need to have armour. Armour reduces hits only veeeery slightly, doesn’t reduce condition damage at all, while having a huge penalty on your damage. Similarly heals are close to useless, because damage slices right through your health and the only way to keep the damage off you is by dodging, blocking…
This is what made the combat system fail and pushes everyone in ‘get highest damage’ (either zerk or condi) because your main defense is dodge/evade and not armour.
You say, in PvE, well it’s much the same in WvW, except that people don’t go full out damage, but high damage combined with ‘average’ tough/vit/heal.
By “veeeeery slightly” you mean 35% you have by wearing soldier’s gear. That’s without any trait points spent at all.
Condition damage is mostly non-existent in pve, most mobs attack solely with direct damage componenent.
On the topic about heals being weak, take a look at this clip. Facetanking the hardest hitting boss in the game because of the heals that are “close to useless” and armour that reduces hits “veeeery slightly” is not my definition of a logical sentence.
You have all buffs up all of the time? I don’t think so.
If you exclude the time when you skip mobs and first few seconds of the combat, then yes, you should have all those buffs easily. If, however, you are still stuck in 2012 and you stack warriors with mesmer, there is virtually not a single second when you don’t have 24-25 might stacks, fury, both banners, etc.
By contrast, regular enemies in the overworld do so little damage that there is no need to dodge at all. You just plow right through regular enemies and continue on as if nothing happened. But, silvers, champs, and enemies in dungeons do so much damage that there’s no point in passive defenses.
I couldn’t disagree more with this. You completely chose to ignore sustain which is one of the biggest contributor the extreme survivability of tanky builds. Passive defense plus sustainability achieved by regen, protection and other traits (soothing mist, adrenal health, healing symbols, etc) give you so much survivability that you don’t have to use any active defense (including dodges) at all.
Well hehe, in a way. I noticed that if I try out absolutely stupid trait-setups (lacking the gear but wanting to test certain trait/skill interactions), then PvE starts feeling… balanced.
This makes me wonder whether the problem is not in the baseline power level (lowest character power you can produce) but in the variance, in how high you can get.
As such I’d rather nerf everyone. IMHO, anything above a rubbish build is too easy right now, and I’d like to bring down the margin instead of buff everyone up. That’d just make it too easy for everyone, independent of spec.
A group of friends tried to run yesterday Arah path 2 with extreme tanky setups. One rule – dodging button unbound and you are unable to use it. Last time I heard, video is coming up.
That’s not how balance has to be, though.
What if zerker setups were simply nerfed to no longer provide such a big advantage? Indirectly, too. By making it so that they cannot avoid a certain portion of damage, damage which more defensive setups could easily soak, but a berserker team will have to stop attacking and rezz each other instead?(Intentionally exaggerated)
Thing is, that’d make PvE more difficult. Defensive setups would largely be where they are now, we only nerfed the stuff which has the ezmode right now (and I play that, and yes, it’s far too easy).
Ofc it’d be better to modify the mob-AI instead and make them able to intentionally gank easy kill high damage targets. But mob-AI is apparently a problematic thing to change as per the devs, so my next thing on the list would be nerfing berserker defence. Make dodge a less reliable way to skip incoming damage, at least in high-risk setups.
Ah yes. The legendary hard mode of playing with tanky setups.
Zerker gear had everything to do with it. I guarantee if everyone in the group had better defensive armor, they would have survived the first group of enemies. How hard is it to understand that zerker leaves no room for error and makes you die faster? I will admit if you can see, dodge, reflect, block every single attack, that’s great and if you luck out and get a good PUG, zerker probably is the way to go. The problem is too many people think they can run zerker and don’t really understand how to play and die all the time and blame everyone else for their mistake. Why is zerker a problem? It’s been said many times, it creates “elitism”.
When I read first impressions of new Tequatl there was one thing I noticed mostly. It was PTV elitism.
Btw, if you find a 1% difference on 70 power you are doing something rather different.
Usually, my ele has around 3338 power (about 20 might stacks plus banner of strength).
3338 / 3268 = 1.021419829
So the difference between full ascended and full exotics solely on power increase is around 2%.
2:37, 2:54, all the gs whirls, and many more. I actually made the effort to watch it.
All it proves is that warrior can facetank a lot of stuff with protection and even the Lupi fight isn’t challenging once you understand it. You still use dodges and evade stuff. Unless with a very specific team setup (just theorising for Lupi – perfect reflects from guard and mesmer, a lot of healing from an ele or two and the guard, protection from guard and another guard, banner and yak signet on warrior, along with tanky gear… then maaaaybe), you can’t just stand in one spot and facetank everything, allowing you to ignore dodging (which is what i said in the first place), simply corner the boss and go completely afk for the whole duration, not going down even once.
Best win: doing a ZERO-dodge (dodge button disabled) arah path 2 run. Video is coming guys. Expect more of it though, when berserker armor gets nerfed.
2 eles, 1 guard, 1 necro, 1 war.
Some of you guys talk like the zerg gear is going to be useless. Its not, they wont nerf it to the ground and make Controle and Support build the only viable options. You will still be able to do dungeons in zerg gear. Now with your brain too
Farming new gear? I dont mind. The money we make have to be used sometime. I like haveing a lot of sets to do different things.
What’s zerg gear? PTV?
The solution for PvE is;
- make bosses harder
- make armour useful
- make healing necessary
drum rolls
TADAAAA: we have a team game which requires skilled play
Using healing shouts, so much skill is involved. Only the best players could ever do it.
I just put all the stats and formula’s in a spreadsheet, then combined for some gear simulations. I wanted something practical to help me choosing one prefix over another.
Acended has +300 Power, +70 Precision and +15% crit damage. There’s also a +5% straight on base weapon damage. The +300 power by itself is something like 15% …I could have made a mistake somewhere so feel free to check my results.
Did you by any chance forgot to add jewels to trinkets? Because fully ascended berserker has 85 more power, 47 more precision and 10% more crit damage.
What passive play in pve? I don’t think anyone should try to make the term passive play interchangeable with its definition in pvp. Because its not the same.
It’s not exactly the same but it’s still passive.
True, however right now, Berserker-geared people don’t ever need to back off. Thus, their DPS is high all the time. If they did have to back off, then the killing time goes up, bringing Zerker gear more in line with other gear sets.
So what would be the point of going full offense if you have similar kill times with other gear set? Rewarding passive play? Have you seen the amount of QQs about that in pvp forums?
Soloing open world content like the Harathi Hinterlands centaur event chain. I would imagine that would be very difficult in zerker gear. Now I will admit, the time invested probably isn’t worth the reward but it’s a nice fun challenging event chain.
Open world is very difficult in a zerker gear? You must be jesting.
What’s the point of active dodges, blinds, blocks etc if mobs hit frequently and mitigation (aka passive play) is required?
You’ve just removed a core mechanism of gw2, removed skill play, and promoted passive play.
Hm, that sounds like the situation we have in pvp. And I got to admit, everyone loves that.
They should but what we currently see are countless whines of vocal minority that most likely bought the wrong game (“Why can’t I tank?”) and now are trying to force their elitsits views on the silent majority.
No profession will let you ignore dodging, not even a warrior, not even in tanky gear.
MMOc is the home of the hyper-casual autists that ruined WoW.
Hardly a good source.
I hope you realize it’s just a direct copy from anet blog which is inaccessible.
When I run my healer I do things really different. I watch my allies’ health, keep up boons as much as possible, place myself in places where I can catch damage for others and more. It involves TEAM play, what most zerkers and condi builds do not.
I’m not saying the fault is entirely on the players. Zerk is the best build in PvE dungeons, Condi the best in WvW and many SPvP scenarios. The problem lies with making them the best. Everything should have equal purpose.
I hope you read articles like this before you bought this game.
Anet already improved condition damage in pvp. Look where it got them. Vast amount of serious pvp-ers leaving the game because it was unbearable to play. Let’s see how it ends in pve where for now condition damage and passive play are worse.
That means we are going to have more creatures like the Gorillas in Arah, that shout spam weakness, effectively nerfing 25% of our DPS.
Weakness is more than 25% and it also decreases your endurance regen.
Well, let’s stop here.
There is nothing more annoying that people trying to make me say thing I did not.Every kind of play whould bring somethign to a team and this is rendered impossible as long as ONE playstile can do it all.
Now, go on preaching how good you are and how the rest are crap just because they don’t like how the game throws 80% of the build diversity out of the window.
Bye.
The game doesn’t throw out anything. You can probably complete 99% of the whole content running random builds. How’s that not diverse?
Last time I checked Zerkers couldn’t tank hits like Knight’s or Cleric’s.
There always will be one certain build that is optimal and you cannot change it.
Hm at this point I’d like to point out that I did an arah p3 in FULL pvt, literally TRIED to eat lupi kicks and STILL finished it in less than 20 minutes, which is ‘pug standard’ id say. Should we take PVT out of the game too?
Trying to eat kicks with a gear? That’s a low level stuff. Make a party of 5 “pet masters” like minion masters, spirit rangers, spirit weapons guardians, etc and then try to eat kicks. Hello aoe limit, you are invincible. This is the test sample how it works against the bubble.
@haviz
Please, stop putting words in my mouth. I am wanting to have other types of builds ‘be a plus’ to the DPS of the encounters and not a minus like they are now. Going all the way to the otehr extreme would be just as bad.The thing is, DPS builds can do heal, boon, control, support… Everything. Skill is needed, sure, but an equally skilled control/support player just brings nothing to the team and this is where the game fails.
And what do you think happens when other builds will be “a plus”? Random pugs (everyone’s favourtie word – elitists) will require you to bring those builds because it’s better. Do you know what optimal means?
It’s still a hell of a lot easier than anything else. Support and utility roles require you to know what you’re doing. Zerker requires you to know 2 things: dodging and mashing all your damage buttons.
I love supportive party members. They always know that they are doing.