I really want to like this game, it does a lot of things right, and I’m still holding on to it, but it just doesn’t have the longevity that MMOs usually have. ArenaNet is announcing its upcoming content update later today (announcement was announced on Facebook), and I hope it addresses PvE players’ concerns about things to do at max level.
“EndGame” (that ridiculous word that people bring to this game) is not about walking and dodging risens in Orr you know?
Have you completed all exp dungeons?
Have you completed the World Map?
Have you get any legendary weapon?
Have you complete all the achievements?
Did you even read the post? Or did you hurry to your “My Amazing Quotes” folder to find a snippet to copy-paste as soon as you saw the thread title? All the things you listed require you to spend some time in Orr.
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@Jack of Tears:
Problem is, you guys just aren’t listening: Progression == Gear is not always true. (See my post above). While ArenaNet did state there isn’t going to be a gear treadmill, they never stated there won’t be any character progression. A lot of players believed that ArenaNet would compensate for the removal of the gear treadmill with some brilliant new idea, which in the end, they didn’t even attempt to do. What I want are tiers of challenge. Right now, the whole PvE world feels like one big starter area. All the content is the same difficulty level. Dungeons are the second tier of difficulty, but not that much higher. That is great for sandbox MMO’s, where that void is filled up by in-world PvP, guild territories, and political systems, but does not work for a themepark MMO very well.
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Someone mentioned Dark Souls earlier, so I’ll use it like an example too. Dark Souls is so successful because it heavily relies on progression. While there definitely is gear/stat progression in that game, skill progression plays an even more important part. It feels rewarding to take down that enemy that kept on killing you. It feels rewarding to get past a boss and unlock another chunk of the game world. It feels rewarding to pick up a dropped magic stone off of the corpse of said boss and use it to enhance your weapon. That, I think, is the essence of progression: Through effort (either skill or time), proving yourself worthy of being able to access new parts of the game. That feels rewarding. Beating a very difficult boss feels rewarding. Getting unique loot (either in stats or cosmetics!) for your effort feels rewarding. GW2 brings none of that to the table. You get access to every part of the game as long as you meet the laughably easy to attain level requirement. Bosses are zerg rushes. Dungeons are graveyard rushes. There is no challenge, and there is no reward. It feels like the whole game is the starting area, with the bulk of the game left off.
I agree with the OP in the sense that GW2 has an identity crisis: It has elements of both sandbox and themepark MMO’s, but doesn’t quite reach the level of either. It lacks the carrots and character progression to be a themepark, and it lacks more complex mechanics (like player/guild housing, faction PvP, inter-guild politics, etc) to be a sandbox.
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Perhaps you don’t find any of what I described as grindy. However, You played 450 hours in 60 days. (That is how long the game is out.) I’ve done the math. That means you must have played a minimum of 7.5 hours a day. If you skipped any days then you played even more than that. So basically, You played almost every waking hour assuming you sleep and work 8 hours a day.
On top of that, he’s constantly on these forums and gw2guru (unless the Red_Falcon there is someone else) white knighting for ArenaNet. It is remotely possible that this game is indeed his life. However, its so unlikely that I think it’s safe to call B. S.
“Massively and multiplayer: I thought was about sharing user experiences and adventures. That somehow became carved into let’s kill dragons together and get cool stuff. The social aspect and the option to choose the way you play diminished.” -Calvin Crowner, Ultima Online Producer, Electronic Arts
Except UO was a sandbox game, complete with persistent player and guild housing, PKs and looting, and gear(!). SWG, on top of that, had vehicles, both for one and several players. That indeed is choose-the-way-you-play. GW2 doesn’t have any interesting game mechanics like that. Its all about combat & some crafting. It’s basically open-world Diablo, without the gear treadmill.
Funny how your analogy revolves around getting a job, a promotion and increasing your personal income and wealth.
This is a video game designed for leisure entertainment, not measuring your productive capacity in society.
Did you read the posts or even make an effort to read the lines?
What I spoke of about “getting a job/promotion/increasing wealth income” are just EXAMPLES to relate how progression actually is fun and vital in a constant virtual world with massive people like in mmorpgs.It’s fun to you.
It may even be vital to you.
But please don’t think that you speak for everyone, a quick glance at this thread shows that you do not.
That is because they’re playing the game with the mentality of a single-player rpg.
That’s why they kept missing the points and brought in arguments that’re really unrelated.And I never said I spoke for everyone.
We can see there’re two types of people here. A group who knows the true essense of mmorpg. Another group who try to make mmorpg look like a single-player rpg or multi-player fps/pvp/player game.
Precisely. They can see that this game has no longevity, so they fallback to the single-player mindset to hide that flaw from themselves. Then you get all the playthrough time comparisons to Skyrim and other open-world single-player RPGs. The thing is, if GW2 was a single-player game, it wouldn’t be able to hold a candle to a good single-player RPG in terms of story, world complexity, player impact, and character development. A persistent, massively-multiplayer world is the MMORPG genre’s trump card, what drives people to play it. No longevity —> Players leave --> Game dies. Period. Doesn’t matter if its subscription-less or not. Sure, you can come back in several months, but to a mostly empty world, so you’ll be playing the game in basically single-player mode. And then, gasp you’ll turn off the game in a couple of hours because, again, MMOs do not work as single-player games.
This has got to be the best trolling i’ve red on this forum so far, I applaud you for pulling so many into this nonsense, because the same developers who designed the game stated they wont have any:
“grinding through chunks of boring, repetitive content to get to the occasional pockets of fun. With Guild Wars 2, we wanted the entire gameplay experience to be something that players enjoyed, regardless of how much time they could dedicate”
10/10.
So anyone stating their opinion that doesn’t match your is a troll? A decent amount of people feel the same way as this “troll” (inb4 yet another attempt at statistical analysis to prove we’re a minority).
For the second part: regardless of how much time they could dedicate is the key phrase. If you don’t have much time to play the game, great, GW2 caters to you! What about people who have the time? I have a job and a social life myself, so I’m not quite “hardcore”, but after 100 hours of gameplay, all that is left to do is A) “Exploring” (which you can do in every MMO ever made) and B ) “grinding through chunks of boring, repetitive content” and get useless legendaries.
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Don’t bother with them, Naoko. You can’t change a white knight’s mind. They’re not listening to your arguments. They keep on derailing the topic of boring PvE to “we got 1337 skillz in PvP l2p lol”, because they know PvE is lacking but need to say something to defend ArenaNet their god who can do no wrong.
It really looks like there are two camps: Those who do PvE and want real ways to progress their characters, and those who don’t care about PvE at all and just want to do PvP, bringing up “sports” as examples of how GW2 should be run. I think the second crowd is playing the wrong genre – This is an mmoRPG. What I think would be perfect for you, is the MOBA genre – League of Legends, DOTA, Heroes of Newerth. Go check them out.
The PvPers aren’t playing the wrong genre. It’s the genre that needs to be refreshed. GW2 offers that.
The #1 reason against progression I see posted on these forums is PvP balance. Your thoughts that the MMO genre needs to be “refreshed” by disregarding PvE and emphasizing PvP are selfish. I’m fine with keeping PvP and PvE separated. You got your sPvP where you get a level playing field and can use “skill” all you want. Don’t come into my PvE and tell me that things that don’t affect you are “unfair” and need to be removed. Again, if you want a game with a fantasy setting, very little PvE, with almost all emphasis on PvP and skill, MOBAs are that way —-——>
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It really looks like there are two camps: Those who do PvE and want real ways to progress their characters, and those who don’t care about PvE at all and just want to do PvP, bringing up “sports” as examples of how GW2 should be run. I think the second crowd is playing the wrong genre – This is an mmoRPG. What I think would be perfect for you, is the MOBA genre – League of Legends, DOTA, Heroes of Newerth. Go check them out.
Why can’t the “make an effort” be practice, learning your class, learning the WvW / sPvP maps, etc?
Why do some people insist it should be
If PlayerA.Playtime > PlayerB.Playtime then
PlayerA.Win = True
Else
PlayerB.Win = True
End If
What is there for people to practice, learn your class, etc. if they don’t care about PvP? There is no challenge for PvE players in this game. The level of difficulty stays the same from level 1 to 80. Dungeons are not difficult either, they are just time-consuming. Graveyard runs =/= challenge. PvE is severely lacking right now. I’ll keep my fingers crossed for the November update, so we’ll see…
In before “GW2 is a PvP game first” – that’s simply not true.
I’m really excited to hear that, Colin!!
@Gilandred: The problem is that its not different than other MMO’s. You know there is a problem with the endgame where the only thing level 80 players can do is “explore” and complete 100% of the map. Its a cop-out. You can do that in every MMO out there. Combined with the fact that there is very little challenging content in the game, makes people get bored at 80 quickly as there is nothing to work toward, no “ultimate” challenge. Most players knew that there will be no raids in GW2, but a lot of us expected ArenaNet to have something else for level 80 players to do instead.
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I like how everyone who just LOVES gw2 has rose tinted glasses on and knows how the game is suppose to be played and who the game is ment to be played by.
Precisely. It leads to rather awkward moments for those people, like today when a dev said that loot drops in dungeons are terrible and not what its supposed to be. Ealier, all the white knights chanted in unison about how we’re supposed to be doing dungeons “just for fun” and how we weren’t “getting” ArenaNet’s “vision”. So much for that…
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NVidia GTX 570.
And why should PvE be held back for the sake of PvP balance? I don’t care about PvP one bit, while you clearly favor it to PvE. I could go on talking about how you should go play LoL if you want “that garbage”, but I won’t because I feel like those two aspects of the game don’t have to step on each other’s feet, but still have plenty of room to grow. Make WvW separate, like SPvP for all I care. I just want more interesting PvE.
Of all the MMORPGs I have ever played, Guild Wars is the first to put PvP first and PvE second. I have always enjoyed PvP in other MMORPGs but have always complained to friends of it being impossible to balance correctly as long as PvE was prioritized when dealing with skills and game mechanics. PvE will eventually be more interesting to your liking, I’m sure, but please give it time.
Signed,
Lalabu
I am giving it time, but there seems to be a few people who think that GW2 is absolutely perfect, and that any addition to gameplay mechanics (I’m not even talking about raids or gear progression, I’m talking about any addition) will ruin their precious game, and shoot down any criticism that would help ANet improve the game. Finally, I am completely fine with people liking pvp. What I have a problem with is people want pve lobotomized just to balance their PvP. Make WvW separate just like PvE. It won’t hurt pvpers, and it won’t hurt pve’ers. Live and let live.
There certainly is endgame content. Go WvW. It’s fun. You’re not enjoying it? You’re doing it wrong. Period.
Raids? Nope. They’re idiotic. Cat-herding at its finest. Boring.
So you’ve “seen the light”, you know which gameplay mechanics are boring, and that people who don’t share your view are “doing it wrong”? Not condescending or hypocritical at all.
The game is suddenly heading towards massive imbalances in player power and PvE gameplay at the expense of PvP.
You want that garbage? The entirety of the MMO market save GW2 has that for you. Have at it.
And why should PvE be held back for the sake of PvP balance? I don’t care about PvP one bit, while you clearly favor it to PvE. I could go on talking about how you should go play LoL if you want “that garbage”, but I won’t because I feel like those two aspects of the game don’t have to step on each other’s feet, but still have plenty of room to grow. Make WvW separate, like SPvP for all I care. I just want more interesting PvE.
When anyone levels that fast, they will burn themselves out. It doesn’t matter what game it is.
Most people leveling super fast are not enjoying the game. I’d also be willing to bet they have missed a large number of the dynamic events.
“Too fast”? The game spoonfeeds you EXP every corner. It’s been a month. Even casual players are starting to hit 80 by now. Tell me how you play, please. Avoid every single monster, mining node, tree, DE, and just “explore”? As for the DE’s, it doesn’t matter that I missed them. They’re exactly the same as the DE’s I’ve already done in every other zone: Kill everything inside the orange circle. Even WoW has a wider range of quest types than this game. DE quantity =/= DE quality.
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If you play the game a little more like Skyrim and less like WoW, you’ll find that there are hundreds and hundreds of hours of game play here
Been trying to say this for two months now.
Except Skyrim is a single-player game. This is an MMO. Gotta love the cherrypicking that’s going on. GW2 lasts a lot less than other MMOs – “but but single player games last just as long”. GW2’s game play isn’t as good as single player RPGs-"but but this is an MMO, cut it some slack! ". Make up your mind. Don’t compare a multi player game to a single player one.
@Red Falcon:
With the exception of “skins”, you can do EXACTLY the same thing in WoW. Explore the world, find all armors for all possible builds of all of your chars, do all the dungeons. Above that, you can: collect mounts and pets, get reputation with factions, and more. Is it necessarily fun? No. GW2 way of doing it isn’t either.
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I don’t remember raiding in WoW being mandatory. Don’t want to do it? Don’t do it. I don’t see why WoW style endgame cannot fit into GW2. Why do you care if another guy has better armor than you? He earned it. You can earn it too. Don’t want to earn it? Then why do you care in the first place, or do you just want gear handed to you on a plate?. PvP is completely separate anyways, no balancing issues to deal with. I remember a joke in the early 2000’s about Bush’s “No Child Left Behind” program: " ‘No Child Left Behind’ works by not letting anyone get ahead". I feel like that quote is appropriate here.
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There are no negative reviews around, all sites give this game 9/10.
As for forum people saying the game sucks because it’s not the umpteenth WoW clone, oh well, who cares?
There were no negative reviews because the reviewers spent only about a week on the game. If they played for a month, like normal players, before writing, not all reviews would be as rosy. I was in love with the game for the first couple of weeks too.
As for GW2, I love the endgame …. I played 300+ hours on all my chars, and i am still 72! So many things to see, so many enemies to kill,… so many Adventures lie ahead…
So you made clear that WoW endgame is not for you, but at least you went through a checklist of things to do and why you didn’t like them. However, you absolutely failed to explain why GW2 is better. “So many things to see, so many enemies to kill”… Almost every MMO out there has an exploration aspect. Almost every MMO has champions/bosses to kill. That includes WoW. Can you outline the endgame mechanics of GW2 in the same way you outlined WoW’s, AND why they’re better?
I enjoyed the comfort I had with the heart-quests and DEs, and the RPG Flair! … I mean, Stuff happens dude,…. these Mobs are not waiting and picking their noses …. I am so into my char when i chop them heads off ….!! I enjoyed every kitten fight …
No offense, but you sound like Anet’s PR team. Mobs are largely still waiting and picking their noses, unless there is a DE going on, in which case they appear out of thin air, bumrush nearby player, get killed, and dissappear.
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My faith in ArenaNet has been completely destroyed. Between the DR debacle, prioritizing nerfs over bug fixes, lack of patch testing, this ranger issue, and above all, the complete absence of dialogue with the community about these issues, I’ll think twice before giving this company any more of my money for any reason.
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I doubt it. As said in a recent blog entry, ArenaNet is going to rent out PvP servers, so they will probably say: “Want 1v1? Buy some gems, rent a server, and you can do it!”
Sure, its great, but you can do the same trick with any game. If you ignore what all other games in the genre have to offer, even a generic run-of-the-mill F2P cash-shop MMO #25 can seem amazing. Call of Duty: Black Ops 2 can seem amazing if you’ve never played Quake, Battlefield, other Call of Duty games, many other FPS games. What does GW2, in its current state, have to offer compared to other MMOs? In my opinion, not much, if not less.
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As primarily a dual-sword, condition-build warrior (also a 1-heavy build, with the rest of the skills being fairly situational) I am wary of what happened to you guys. I’ll be expecting a “fixed animation bug for warrior sword” with a stealth nerf any day now, and be told that they want me to “use 1 less, and other skills more”.
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This. I’ve put down GW2 to play Dark Souls, and I feel like ANet can learn a lot from that game about rewarding content. I’m not suggesting that all content needs to be hard – but there should be enemies that only the most skilled players can take down AND be rewarded appropriately with a unique weapon/armor skin.
@Stravoli: Sounds like you didn’t read the thread and just made a post reflecting the title. Also I’ve already made a contribution to the thread. I didn’t bash on the game. I enjoyed it, for a month. I didn’t claim it was “kitten”, just pointed out some things that could be improved, as well features of other MMOs that are FUN (and have nothing to do with “treadmills” that a lot of people dismiss ANY suggestion as) that GW2 can only benefit from. I’ve contributed more to this thread than your “Huhuhu, you guys are hipsters”. Again, sounds like you didn’t read the thread.
Ah….good old WoW….has programmed the masses to need a treadmill.
Something just came to mind. There seems to be an entire generation of MMO hipsters these days. They start playing the latest MMO, and then scoff at it after they burn through the content and wonder what to do next.
It honestly reminds me of those people who sit in coffee shops, simultaneously talking on their iPhone while typing on the latest Mac Book Pro, talking trash about anything and everything that doesn’t fit perfectly with their lifestyle.
Sounds like someone couldn’t think of anything to say, and decided to resort to personal attacks for the sake of saying something to defend their precious game.
They mentioned in an interview that they wouldn’t do any balancing at all until they were done fixing the bugged skills. There’s still a ton of bugged skills btw.
Yea they did a complete 180 here =/
The game was fun, but I expected a lot more. I expected the game to build on what was shown in the low-level areas during the BWEs in terms of world complexity, difficulty, and character progression. None of that was delivered. The game is exactly the same at any level past 30, when you unlock your elite slot and your character progression is over. Every map is the same, they might as well be skins for one map. Events never fail. Enemies don’t get more difficult or more interesting to fight. Personal story is so bad its not even worth doing. Finally, there are just no PvE gameplay mechanics aside from combat and crafting. No content intended for guilds to do, no interesting mechanics like world PvP (not saying it should be in GW2, just throwing out things other MMOs have done to spice up the gameplay), guild-controlled towns and player housing, no guild vehicles (airships), I could go on and on. Could these things be coming in the future? Sure. But I won’t be playing the game until then, I think.
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Apparently the utter boredom and ennui all of you all are experiencing hasn’t stopped you from posting on the forums of a game you so profess to hate.
Pity that.
Apart from one or two people in the entire forum (not even in this thread!) who’s professing to “hate” the game exactly? All I see is people who enjoyed the game, but feel like it doesn’t deliver on a couple of points and should be improved.
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Whenever I see someone saying “This game is perfect! Stop playing! Stop ruining it for me! Go back to WoW” I imagine a spoiled birthday kid whose guests somehow offended him. Now he’s stomping his feet and yelling for everyone to get out of his house and never come back.
The biggest problem imho is the complete absense of gameplay mechanics beyond combat/crafting. Social mechanics are almost nonexistant. Where is multiguild chat? Where is guild messageboard? Guild Halls? Guild-Oriented PvE? Player housing? Collections? I could go on and on about features that should have been included in GW2. “It’s coming eventually” is not an excuse. Other MMOs have these features, they’re a no-brainer. The combat system and DE system, while a step in the right direction, are not at all that revolutionary and don’t justify cutting out of features. The game feels very unfinished at the present state.
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I agree, GW2 is awesome from 1-40. However, you might change your mind, like I did, after you get past the beginning of the game.
Some people are so hard to please, I mean honestly, I don’t know what people expect….
This issue has been brought up since BWE1. This is not the “complaint of the day” or whatever you think it is.
Topics on this issue has been raised several times during the BWE’s, but were shot down by fanboys every time. Nice to see the general consensus changing. I hope ArenaNet does somehing to make the combat deeper. One of my personal favorite suggestions was having a skill tree for every weapon type, spending finite attribute points to unlock skills in a path that would fit the player’s playstyle.
please stop using this stupid word. The monicker “boy” is really flattering when you are closing in on your 4th decade, don´t get me wrong on that, but the “fan” part is just silly. Isn´t a fan just someone who enjoys something enough to stick with it? Aren´t you a fan of the game? Why are you playing it if you dislike it? Or are you just playing the forum game?
I’m sorry I got you all worked up. I agree that “fanboy” was probably not the best word choice in this situation. Maybe… “proponents of the current system”? I don’t know, I’m no good with words…
@OP, instead of just saying these abilities are boring, I’d like to see you replace each of those skills with abilities that are “interesting”, without increasing the overall power of the kit.
Calling the OP out for not suggesting improvements does not invalidate his points.
without increasing the overall power of the kit.
I’ve said this multiple times, but this is the fundamental flaw in GW2’s combat system. The skill system has been lobotomized for the sake of PvP balance, leaving PvE players out in the cold.
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Topics on this issue has been raised several times during the BWE’s, but were shot down by fanboys every time. Nice to see the general consensus changing. I hope ArenaNet does somehing to make the combat deeper. One of my personal favorite suggestions was having a skill tree for every weapon type, spending finite attribute points to unlock skills in a path that would fit the player’s playstyle.
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More level 80 content
More activities for guilds
More gameplay mechanics:
Player housing?
Additional char progression systems?
Airship construction and flight, like in Allods?
Political Systems (Guild Halls/Areas of Control, like in Darkfall – I’d love to have more player influence in PvE world)
More skill customization
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1. Yes
2. No
3. No
4. No
5. No
I will read the rest of what you wrote, but unless the Karma gear from temples is an exception, can’t you salvage Karma armor for cloth, Ecto, and particular Runes? That right there could sink the market for those items.
On launch you were able to, but it was disabled about a week into the game. You can’t do anything with karma rewards that could earn you money. You can’t sell or salvage.
- You don’t need gear progression either. Gear progression is just another MMO’s ploy to get you to pay more monthly fees.
I quite enjoyed gear progression on WoW private servers, and I didn’t pay a dime. They sure got me with that ploy, oh boy!
“I stole a game for a long time. This let me play it for free.” — This is your argument? Congratulations?
No, my argument is that I actually had fun with the game and the gear progression system, and that your point that the fun I had was “illusional” because I mentally told myself its “fun” to justify a monthly subscription is moot. Don’t resort to personal attacks just for the sake of saying something. If you don’t have a solid argument against my point, don’t post a reply.
Also, I’d like to say that I don’t support adding gear progression into GW2. What I do support is adding something else to patch up the hole left by removing it.
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I always read these posts about wanting more “endgame”, but I fail to see people list actual “endgame” ideas, unless the only MMO Endgame people believe in is a gear grind.
That’s ArenaNet’s job, not ours.
I guess most people believe that just because the game is classified as an MMO they are entiteled to 900 million hours of gameplay while if they buy a singleplayer game and get 7-9 hours out of it while probably paying more it’s enough.
Alright, since you insist on treating GW2 on single-player terms:
It’s world is not nearly as immersive as Skyrim’s.
It’s action-oriented combat system is not nearly as thrilling as God of War.
It’s story is pathetic at best, and can’t be compared to, say, Mass Effect.
The trump card of MMO’s is that they are the only genre that provide a huge, persistent world where thousands of players can interact. Because of that, supporting server population is crucial. MMO’s need to offer content that keeps people playing for months. If it doesn’t, the world becomes a ghost town, and the game loses appeal. It becomes a shallow likeness of a single-player RPG. At that point, why not go play a REAL single-player RPG?
Players of different genres of games have different expectations. Comparing an MMO to single-player games is misleading.
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Again, stop assuming that we mean “gear treadmill” when we say we want more to the current endgame. MMOs are all about progression systems. Most of them do the gear treadmill, yes. I realize GW2 is not that type of game. Great! Stay that way! But saying the current “endgame” here in GW2 is the end all and be all of endgaming is a joke. I don’t feel any reason to log in once I’ve completed the things I found fun in the game which was leveling and exploration. Sadly those have finite endings and there is no more progression for me to look forward to, right now.
I want more progression, but done Anet’s way. What that way is, I don’t know, who does but Anet? They have to realize this game feels like an sRPG with online friends more than a true and tried MMORPG. It’s going to hurt it in the long run if it just stays this way without adding some innovative and Anet style different endgame mechanics. I just hope most of you realize that and would stop with the “you bought the wrong game” attitude you all seem to throw at anyone who mentions not enjoying post 80 gameplay. Gear treadmill isn’t the answer to that anyway, as there already is a gear treadmill. Isn’t that what you get for running dungeons over and over for? Or earning a heap ton of Karma and gold? Yeah, still looks like a gear treadmill to me. That doesnt’ interest me, never has. Other systems to however, in other games in the form of mini games, housing, trophies, alternate advancement systems, or the non level based games, skills you level up over time through usage. Collectables and collectable card games, mini pets, mounts, you name it. These are all different endgame options that aren’t in GW2 at all that I have to come to expect in an MMO. ANYTHING but, just keep doing what you were doing(again, I can’t because leveling and exploration are finite! lol).
This. Great post, elocke. I’ve already made a couple of posts on this topic, but once again: GW2 took out the gear treadmill for one reason or another. Great. What’s going to replace it? Ultima Online (not focused on gear btw!) had player housing as part of the persistent(!) game world, player killing and looting; SWG had both housing and vehicles capable of carrying multiple players. GW2 doesn’t offer any gameplay quirks like that. It feels like an MMO-lite as a result. Something needs to be done.