But the ft tank spec both survives numerous opponents, and kills them.
if TTK is all you care about, by all means throw some nades, or SD burst.
but, using the ft is not a kit designed for lowest TTK possible. it is meant for tanking and crowd control, which it does very well, and any dps you have, mild mannered as it may seem, only adds to the dps of your group, which your ft skills ultimately buff.
you add to your group’s dps as an ft user, while tanking for them.
it is a different play style than just killing things, because you ought to be watching your team more than the opponents (player or npc)
okay, let’s carry on with the extension of traits then,
a dps FT falls in to two specs:
0/30/0/20/20 and 20/30/0/30/0
the first gives you, with rampagers gear, strength sigil, and might runes, focus g on high crit rate (and 20% crit dmg), and astonishingly high, hard hitting crit rate.
the second is the tried and true Enhanced Performance/Incendiary Powder build.
Since the premise is that, specced for dps, a gs guardian is better than an ft engineer, then we ought to spec the ft for dps.
this is, admittedly and unfortunately, where the FT lags, not in dps, but in survivability; a dps ft is glass cannon. a dps guard has more innate defenses.
another thing to consider is that the ft is not a burst weapon (despite the oomf of Flame Blast), but rather sustained dps over time. it’s (almost) always the same
it just keeps burning; as someone mentioned earlier, the ft is melee – not in dmg – but in application, so missing and blocking are the only ways to mitigate it.
that sounds about right, but, tbh, HGH spec is not the spec you ought to be using to test the “tanks” FT build.
0/30/20/20/0
Precise Sights, Fireforged, Jugg
Energized Armour, whatever
whatever, Deadly Mixture.
use toughness runes or might duration runes, battle sigil, soldier army w/knight jewel
drop napalm, net and healing turrets, detonate for area might after you ha e you full jugg stacks.
then test the dps.
You ought to be hitting for between 2500 and 3000 w/ every FT#1 cycle. Comparable to the dps guardian. Ofc it is not exactly the same.
ya, but the guardian max dps weapon is not grenades.
it is actually comparable to the FT…
Everyone does damage, everyone does support, everyone does healing, why take a kit that does less dmg and only gives you a aoe pushback?
have you actually read any of this thread? you ought to.
I completely agree with The Gate Assassin about how to use the flamethrower but still I loved using it while leveling my engineer and even in some spvp builds it works quite well with an aoe knockback. It’s just that some things the flamethrower lacks in. Which is good sustained damage and conditions, Jet flame takes way to long to rely on, both have a good blind, both #2 skills do good dmg but grenade kit also adds great condition dmg and grenade kit has poison vs a line fire combo field. One line of fire or 3 circles of poison, the grenade kit is far superior in conditions and still good with power. Right now grenade kit is the best kit for damage, that is just a fact. So taking anything else for the most damage possible is not worth it.
yes, thank you, again, no one is contesting that.
but….
this is a thread about the FT, the FT playstyle, and the FT abilities.
since we all already -know- that grenades do more DPS, continuing to regurgitate that info as if it will completely negate the FT is .. well stupid.
The FT is not intended to be used as a top end burst dps kit. the grenade kit is.
The FT is intended to be used as a support utility kit. The grenade kit is not.
Why is this still being argued about?
Know what? I’m done here. Maybe someday you’ll realize offense is the best defense, especially in this game. Yeah, I could devote my entire build to be tankier, or I can stay out of the way, dodge and kill stuff. Hell, for most of the content in this game I can walk right up to enemies and blow them up without worrying about dying anyways. Yes, even Arah and Fractals. You may call it a playstyle, but I call it being optimal.
go have fun being optimal then.
don’t forget your 5-signet cube on the way out.
edit: @lunyboy; thanks, that’s a prime summary.
(edited by nakoda.4213)
king at what? dps output?
no one has ever claimed ft/eg is better dps. ever. the ft/eg builds are GROUP oriented focus, the grenades are FOE oriented focus.
NEITHER DOES THIS MEAN THAT GRENADES ARE USELESS IN GROUPS
What I am saying is that speccing nades is to spec dps and focus on killing opponents (in pvp) while speccing in to ft/eg encourages you to focus on your allies, and not your foes.
two different ways of playing the game.
@Kamahl; between you and waka, i can’t think of worse representatives of the engineer’s community. you know nothing. you assume everything. change this. please.
@Gates: The support from grenades comes less frequently and more haphazzardly than the EG, period. the grenades are not designed to support your group, they are designed to DPS your foe. Grenades do not have fumigate, or acid bomb, or super elixir, or rubber ball, all things which SUPPORT the group FIRST dps second. your “king of the class” grenades do the exact opposite.
your closed minded attitude is stopping you from comprehending that there are multiple ways of approaching challenges in this game.
FOR YOU, the way that YOU play, grenades are king. For other people, they are not. and YOU have NO qualifications for telling them otherwise. period.
altruism runes offer might to the whole party, not just a duration increase.
just a different application of the boon.
bring back the holy trinity.
it is the foundation of group play which not only appeals to multiple playstyles, but also encourages higher levels of coordination and team presence as opposed to what we have now which, even in highly organized top tier matches, is a dps race to clear the point and move on.
fun to play, boring to watch.
honestly, I would just like to see the removal of stomping and the #2 and #3 downed abilities.
let people bleed out, get healed, and throw rocks while laying there. reduce hp pool so bleed out happens faster and makes healing/ressing a meaningful choice. allow downed players to benefit from aoe regen. allow downed players to move their camera (even from the reduced pov) such that they can reposition their avatar. allow downed players to move by inches, dragging along the ground.
make being downed a meaningful experience and not lottery for who gets to stomp you first.
that’s because the FT is not a “DPS” kit…
and mindlessly pushing 1 is how you want to play?
FT is fine. I have been using it in PvP for the last 2 weeks. I feel like it compliments P/S very well. You can get two blinds, two knockbacks, you can hit the crits easy with 1. I basically picked it originally for incendiary ammo so I didn’t need 10 in explosives. If you hit ammo and then static shock you will produce burn on each bounce. So now you could potentially bleed/vuln(2)/burn/conf/blind/freeze per bounce in my current build. FT 1 seems to hit more frequently than pistol 1 so it will produce the crits faster thus creating more condition damage while pistol 1 can create more bleed stacks. So when you combine the two, you can bunker while producing some good Condition damage. So will you get the damage output of grenades? Nope but does it allow you to perform a couple of roles? Sure.
Freeze?
sigil of hydromancy.
incendiary ammo → swap → pistol #3
I respect your opinion and the time it took you to make that post, but for the flamethrower in particular, I still don’t believe it’s necessary to trait for it. The cool downs are all fairly short and you can get much more benefit from many other trait lines. I honestly don’t see any circumstance where a shorter cool down knockback would be better than a shorter cool down pistols or more protection/vigor.
That is because when you use pistols, you do your best to stay as far from the combat as your skills allow, and so you need to be able to strike more often while moving about, whereas with the FT you tend to stay closer to the fray (thus the need for toughness) and, thus, having access to Air Blast more frequently and used with intelligent timing mitigates damage for you and your entire group because it can spread multiple foes around (and off) of the point.
The whole point of my “well thought out post” is that there are multiple ways of doing things.
You don’t “get” juggernaut, and so you don’t use it, and you do well without it; that’s fine. But to call it “worthless” is misleading and misinformative to the community at large.
bombs bombs bombs bombs
i see a little silhouetta of a theif
a sudden wosh
makes me go oof
cuz it was a mesmers paanntassmm
ele rides the lightning!
very very frightening to me!
It’s a mesmer! It’s a mesmer!
It’s a mesmer! It’s a mesmer!
It’s a mesmer! But which one’s real?!
I’m just a warrior nobody loves me!
He’s just a warrior with mediocre capabilities!
Spare him his life from this monstrosity!
No cc breaks no where to go, will you let me go?!
Engineers! NO! we will not let you go! – let me go!
Engineers! we will not let him go! – let me go!
Engineers! we will not let you go! – let me go!
Never let you go! – let me go!
Never let me go – ooo
No no no oh oh!
Oh no! it’s a necro! it’s a necro! it’s a necro! let me go!
Kitten Engineer! The necro put a curse on me!
on me!
on MEEEEEE!
head banging and flailing commence
So you think you can net me and shoot glue in my eye!
So you think you can burn me and blow me sky HGH!
Oh engi! can’t do this to me engie!
Just gotta get out .. really wish i could break some cc…
(edited by nakoda.4213)
Too late, my team mates haven’t come
All the thieves went back to Mine
running back there’d waste so much tiiimme….
Mama…tourneys just began…
and now i’ve got to bio afk….
as always, such fun to watch.
why on EARTH do people want the old jugg back?
yay i have stability!! so I can stand here and not be knocked down OR get away while I eat this damage. While I am at it, let’s get the vacuum back so I can pull MORE foes to my side to beat on me while I do zero damage, and can’t move because of yet another self CC built in to an ability. it’s like wishing for us to have our downed state while still alive. Can’t move, can’t dmg, can’t get away.
we already have perma protection with the ft kit. protection + 200 toughness = awesome. Especially without the ridiculous self CC.
Coming back to Walorx’s post, if you can filter out the e-groupie rhetoric, we find some solid advice on using the FT for point control, knock back, blind, flame blast (it makes people move, even if it misses, that is a wasted dodge teammates can exploit).
But the puck stops there, it never crosses the line to really look at what control means, and so it goes on, like so many broken records on this forum, to say that speccing in to a kit is worthless (unless it is the grenade kit, the implication weighs heavy).
But now we have to talk about mechanics, and complexity, and swapping etc.
Because we have instant (GCD constrained) weapon (kit) swapping, we have access to an exorbitant array of abilities on reasonably short cooldowns inside the kits, which is why our utility skills are on such high cooldowns (likewise for the toolbelt in many cases) Now, this isn’t the place to argue about how long/short cooldowns need to be (many need to be made much shorter), the point I want to make is that if you have 2 kits equipped, you are setting yourself up for, generally, a 3-6 second retention of each kit at a time.
Unlike weapons which would restrict us to 10 second intervals, weaving 5 skills in with 3 utilities and the odd F skill mechanic (class depending), your 2 kit engie has, within that same 10 second window, access to 10 weapon skills, two utilities, and four belt skills. Within the kits, cooldowns on the most useful abilities are SHORT (Super Elixir traited to 16 seconds? Yes please; 4.5 second fire blast? Yes please; and so on). The reason for this is that our gameplay is meant to be spent swapping kits frequently to chain together long combinations that can be altered on the fly rather than predefined combos that only work one way. This could be seen as restrictive ONLY IF YOU THINK FROM A PURE DPS BURST PERSPECTIVE.
What this enables for the Engineer is the capability to frequently cycle through crowd controlling and group supporting skills which allow the Engineer to control the pace of combat.
But! An Engineer cannot do this alone! You are right, for the most part, gearing and speccing for this supportive playstyle leaves you lacking on both the burstiest end dps and tankiest end bunkering. It leaves you solidly in the middle … kind of like our attack range.
When paired up with an ally, however, or when bunkering, the engineer shines because of their ability to quickly and intelligently adapt to the skirmish and unleash a constant steady supply of buffs, heals, and crowd control which, thanks to our short cooldowns, are always at hand.
The engineer is always fully prepared.
Now, in my experience of using nothing but the flamethrower for months is that as a bunker, toughness is, by and large, the single most important stat to stack. The 6 stacks of might, additionally, mitigate the versatility tax and make your FT formidable enough that people have to pay attention to you. The FT is not so weak that if you just ignore an FT user, you will be fine. Most good groups realize you have to kill the FT first. With the extra 200 toughness, and with protection traits (shield and injection) and with runes which increase protection like Forge or Earth runes, and with amulets that add toughness like Soldier or Rabid or Shaman, the FT becomes much less skittery and much more punchy because you can chase foes and get up in their face if you need to, without worrying about being burned down super fast.
By taking traits that work with immobilization, you also turn the FT into a primary focus control weapon, which can pick a foe and lock them down indefinitely. This returns us to the concept of cooldowns. Personally, I think that more than two kits (not counting healing medkit) cripples you not because of lack of options, because you bring too much to the table. With traited cooldowns on the FT, combined with the rifle and a net turret, you can have unlimited nets available on demand at (nearly) every moment.
…….
Anyway, the whole point of these walls of text is to educate you that there are MULTIPLE ways of using things.
Yes, you can use the FT as a supplement in other builds, without Juggernaut .. that is wicked, and I am glad that people are finally coming to terms with the kit instead of puking all over it on the forums. But take your mittens out of your kittens and stop telling people that speccing for the kit is a waste. If the FT playstyle isn’t for you, that is too bad, but the FT traits are not worthless.
Read my guide.
(edited by nakoda.4213)
What new stuff?
Well, let’s take a look at what the engie CAN do (and, please keep in mind, I don’t give a fat rat’s amputated left testicle about what Karnie Karl or any of the Jon’s have to say about what Anet wants the class to be, this profession is in OUR hands now, and like any piece of literature, once it is released for public consumption, deciphering authorial intent is an exercise in stupidity and redundancy … so stop being redundantly stupid, this is a plea to the community as fellow gamers, not nak being angry ole bear on the forums)
1)
Engies have the fastest and most reliable and predictable set of applications of group wide buffs thanks to our wide variety of combo fields available. But Nak! We lack finishers to use them! Yes, we do, but that, I believe, is the point. This game is not like other MMO where positioning is critical or millisecond timing is critical, which is one of the reasons why PV kitten o fun, it is less micromanagement, more pew pew than many other games.
- this makes our combo fields ridiculously valuable because once they are on the ground, ANYONE can activate it. Now, when a water field goes down on a point and a team that is coordinated says “water field down!” on vent, the whole team (if there) can start dropping blast finishers and healing the whole point for a couple seconds
precisely because the combo fields are just there for anyone to use, the UTILITY of the engineer profession is to CONSTRUCT the field of combat for your allies.
“Controlling” the battlefield is about more than putting down a turret and expecting it to win a fight and cap a point for you, controlling the battlefield is about turning the battlefield into a safe zone for your allies and protecting that place.
2)
Engineers are capable of spreading conditions faster than any other class. But Nak! You have to trait super deep and spec in only a certain way to make your condis last longer than someone elses, or keep them from getting over written! Yep, you do, but regardless of how you’ve traited, you can still spread those conditions like peanut butter on toast, hot, oily, and oh so salty. Conditions are something that have to be dealt with, which means that regardless of the condi potency, as soon as you unload on someone, they are going to say, “oh snap” and start looking to clear condis…the mere THREAT of HGH condi specs is enough to make people clear condis.
- THIS IS A FORM OF POINT CONTROL because you are dictating the actions of the people around you and leading them in to actions you want them to do.
3)
Engies have access to the widest variety of crowd control and enemy lockdown (barring Rangers specced in to traps) in the game. Again, our control options highlight the versatility of the engineer in combat because, regardless of traits, we have myriad options for positioning our opponents where we want them, rifles, glues, turrets, gadgets etc. The only thing we don’t have is Fear. I don’t want to get repetitive, so the point is CONTROL.
Now, certainly the engie does more than this in a great many ways, but IMO, these three things - combo fields, conditions, and crowd control - are the “flavour” of the engineer, and when used together, turn the engineer in to an incredibly fun profession that views the field from “above” and reacts to threats as they occur, just like maintaining a big machine .. sit back and watch the gears spin, if something looks out of whack, tweak it .. or hit it with your wrench …
Alright nak, so wtf does all this have to do with your beef about these FT threads? … read on, padawan.
Y’all fight the notion of mid-range combat as if it were some world ending semantic juggernaut (pun intended) that was trying to destroy your vision of ranges vs. melee. Like it or not, mid-range combat exists, and has existed … well forever. Just because the game does a poor job of implementing this role for us does not mean that the role is nonexistent.
(edited by nakoda.4213)
TLDR; there isn’t one,suck it up and read.
disclaimer: this is about PVP, not Wuvwuv or PVE. And for the love of kitten, don’t bother with “well blah blah concept is brokena nd doesn’t work anyway!” (like gadets) .. I don’t want to hear your defeatest, self depricating kitten talk about how nothing we have works. be a winner and think about things in a bigger picture.
First, I would just like to say … where the hell are all of these “wisdom” posts coming from out of you guys as if you’ve all been using the FT like wizards for the last seven months? You haven’t, you’ve been telling ME for seven months how useless the flamethrower is. Now all of a sudden, because a video with Teldo using the FT in his rotation, everyone is an arm chair expert on using the FT.
all dem rude bumbaclots can BUN in fyah. this is the original raggamuffin speakin in your ear now. ’ere it is. big it up!
The wording can be misleading, in the way that Walorx has described things.
IF you only use the FT for it’s utility as a supplement to other builds, then Juggernaut is a waste.
However, speccing to use Juggernaut is … not.
What you have to understand about the FT kit is that, yes, it is a utility kit, but that is only half of the picture.
People need to stop kittening about the old Jugg trait.
IT SUCKED .. There, I’ve said it for all you e-peaning fanboys. The old Jugg sucked. So did the old Luigi’s Mansion vacuum attack. They were nifty utilities, but they were not balanced utilities, and they did not function the way that the kit was intended for.
Hohoho, let’s take a weapon that is designed to keep foes at bay and give them an ability to pull them closer, and THEN slow you down on top of it, but it’s okay! Stability! … honestly, if you thought this was the be-all-end-all of game play, you need to l2p and stop being such a close minded one button hero. The seven months of misconception about FT dps and melee dps etc etc is crap because it was only a relevant argument with the old set up where all you could do was pull enemies right in to your face .. like downed #2 … you needed front end DPS to make up for the of pulling your foes closer. If you don’t like what I just said about the old Jugg, it sucks to be you because clearly the Devs think the same way I do.
The new knock back from air blast and the tough/might changes to Jugg turned the weapon into something DIFFERENT than what it was. And frankly, what is is now is FAR better than what it was.
It is high time we had a discussion about just what the kitten and engineer is supposed to be doing in combat.
things we complain about:
- lack of over all dps fairing builds, gimicky solutions that get nerfed month after month
- lack of straight up tanking builds, reliance on oh snap buttons and dodge mechanics
- turrets that die too fast
- elixirs that “make no sense” to the “theme” of the engineer (as if a fantasy game needs a rubric carved in stone)
- the mythical versatility tax
So, what we have then is this leftover jumble of utility skills and kits that everyone seems to think that the only possible way to use them is to spec fully in to them and nothing else (and on this point, Walorx’s advice is actually very sound, there is no NEED for juggernaut, but that doesn’t make it worthless … read on). People who think there is only one way to do things are wrong. Period.
We have the nade spec, the HGH spec, the HGH nade spec, and … a bunch of derivative crap that has spilled out from these builds by the plethora of cookie cutter copiers who have no capacity fo compile their own construct of traits and abilities.
The Engineer is not and never has been designed to be a high falluting dps burst profession like warriors and thieves. Just because we CAN do it with a lot of hard work doesn’t mean that dps was the intent. And yet, constantly here on the forums people bash their heads against the keyboards mewling about how other classes can do XYZ with Button A instead of just getting to do X with buttons ABC asking and pleading to be given back over powered traits and abilities so that we can pew pew with the big boys.
mew mew.
At the same time, this crusade of yours to find some uber best dps spec in the game (which, ironically, I believe engies DO have, at the end of the day, but that part of the post is coming later …) STIFLES the ability for new players to experiment with stuff and have fun doing it which COULD lead to the discovery of a whole bunch of new stuff (even my tirades about the FT end up stumping out some creativity I am sure, that is the rub of giving advice).
(edited by nakoda.4213)
caught in a landslide
Are you sure?
They changed relatively little with this patch, its mainly here to introduce the new living event; its only been 2 weeks since the last major patch.
yep, that way, when they release the other half of the patch in two weeks, they can call it the “big pvp patch” since it will be “all pvp”.
d-(-_-)-b
imo, FT#1 is not a damage attack it is an effect spreading attack.
same goes for napalm, it is a utility.
why #2 is not a blast finisher remans a mystery.
They shouldn’t be making the game in the other regions if its too hard to correct a tooltip. Just stick to english and worry about 1 set of tooltips.
If any 1 thing in the game should be polished; it should be the little notes that tell you what your character is capable of.
Buuuut this is anet we’re talking about. So we’ll just have to deal with broken notes and traits until they get done finding new ways to Nerf us.
someone is open minded….
Marginal condition damage? Correct me if I am wrong but don’t YOU brag about how much damage it does because of the might stacks. And didn’t YOU admit that this build was OP? OP=NEEDS A NERF… Plain and simple.
well, the troll has you on that one, OE.
/snicker
but….
my heart is illiterate!
…Those are pretty all over the place.
more than one way to skin a cat. if you took the time to read the thread instead of just spark notes the build numbers, you might learn a thing or two about the FT play style.
for further information, i suggest you do some research on worm-mucking.
if you can’t handle the heat, put down the flamethrower and go back to playing with your grenades.
can i use my power gloves to direct my Ro-boy golem to bring me drinks before sending it off to battle?
/shrug
people who don’t vote complain about politics too. i suppose this is no different.
/p
Can we just remove the engineer class already? Very few people play it, no one else understands how it works, and apparently the last round of nerfs wasn’t strong enough.
We could replace it with a steampunk profession that uses turrets and gadgets.
as long as I get a flogiston powered flame thrower, I will be okay with this.
apparently it does. anet does not have a good track record of QA control.
look, i get that it is frustrating, but at this point, the mewling is less productive than being level headed and recognizing anet’s patterns.
you still have the responsibility of keeping apprised of the patch notes, that is what they are there for. patch notes are not some monthly present from dad when he comes home from some business trip. they are the legal representation of what you can expect from this game as per your EULA, snapshots in time for investors and bean counters.
“Game content likely to change.” Patch noes are the most current game content, and the patches (and their respective notes) are cumulative, not independent from one another.
People have complained about this kittene for 14 years now and it still hasn’t changed, but what gets me is that people complain as though this is some new, jagged, deep bleeding wound of pestilent insult from the developers. it isn’t. you have not been harmed.
get over it.
if your whole team is sitting on a point capping it, that point is better defended against the incoming zerg than if you were there alone.
this is hotjoin we are talking about. teams zerg, whether they zerg for caps or they zerg for kills is irrelevant; you cannot expect 5v5 tactics to transfer over to hotjoin – it just doesn’t work.
wait im confused.
so in pvp
if an engie buffs up, stands around without any challenge, and is allowed to just throw grenades at people … she can kill them?
wow .. that’s like .. WAY OP.
and theives can spam perma stealth and secretly use portals under shadow
and ranger pets can solo arah
and mesmers are actually clones themselves
and warriors get 100b as #2 skill on every weapon
and elementalists are nine feet tall and shoot lightning from their arses
and necromancers can have both 133% condi duration AND 12 minions at a time
and guardians can permanently bubble a point so no one can get on it.
what class do YOU play, Jportell?
because my might-stacking-elixir-popping-grenade-throwing-turret-dropping-flamethrower kit also comes complete with infinite snare and condi removal utilities, a spork, and over 9000 attack power.
maybe you are just playing the wrong class.
^ … win.
clearly states in the patch notes that airblast extends burning for 2 seconds.
you cannot count on tooltips in this game, you have to read the patch notes consecutively.
engies already pay some unquantifiable versatility tax that reduces our base damage on all of our weapons and kits.
might stacking is the mechanical method the engie adopts to overcome their inherent disability to be able to compete with other classes for dps spots in teams.
the question ought to be to look at whether a fully stacked HGH engie is on par with a shatter meet or theif or ele for straight dps output.
target standing on X
overcharge rocket fires
a) target moves 239 from X; rocket hits. knockdown
or
b) target moves 241 from X; rocket misses.
R X——H——-H———H——H—-240 M M M … etc
maybe? speculation.
It’s cool as long as those custom servers hosting pve toons won’t give you rank points.
or show up AT ALL in the pvp browser.
i think they have something already psuedo set up for what Cola wants, it’s called the Borderlands and Eternal Battleground.
Find a reasonably quiet corner, go duel. Opponents can guest on opposing shards.
If you want to brag about your rank 50 armors play in a server that doesn’t allow pve items, that simple.
well, we do … and …
we do,
we call it the Mists.
“I am sick and kitten tired of all these mother kitten nerfs in this mother kitten game!”
- an engie in “Nerfs in a Game”
(edited by nakoda.4213)
At least nobody’s tried to tell us that they’re working and we just can’t see it.
touche, salesman.
nope. we wait till next patch, I guess.
wouldn’t it defeat the purpose of stealth if you could maintain target lock through stealth?
Maybe not through stealth, but going invis for .5s then making 10 clones and me and my stupid clumsy fingers can’t click on you again results in many deaths. I’d like to be able to just press my target hotkey when you come out of invis.
is that not the point of the clones, as well?
the FT is a very “tanky” weapon, … get dirty with it, that’s what it’s for. power/toughness first. pre/vita next. cond/crit last.
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