Guild Wars 2

killimandros.5087:

Sifu.6527:

killimandros.5087:

Sifu; you need 3 thieves, 13 players of whatever class with their brains connected to their spine. You make 3 SR, people enter and can attack unseen. 15 people stealthed. You have 4 thieves. You have 5 thieves…see the problem? SR last so long with the culling and a handy mesmer a huge group can attack unseen and fight unseen 15-20 seconds. I have a thief, as I pointed out. Its not hard to make a puzerg stand under the hut, add swiftness on them and finally memser stealth line. Culling takes care of the rest. The bigger group, the longer culling. Hence its a problem in WvW not pve or spvp.

Take a look at how some of the most known guild groups abuse this. A couple of weeks ago, we fought RG. Most of the time we were running around without seeing them. If stealth makes this possible, be it thieves, mesmers, its a huge impact to wvw. It is THE biggest problem, because it ONLY gives huge groups benefits. The bigger the grooup, the more effective the stealth.
and Sifu, I just noticed your last 50 posts are all about defending thieves abilities, so Im not going to argue anymore with you :-) (apart from the one where you challenge anyone to fight your p/d build, which is the same one I use, its neat)

What are you suggesting to fix this?

Are you suggesting abuse of culling doesnt exist? I was merely pointing out how I personally (and if you didnt know about it, I cant help you) experience culling abuse, both from the receiving and giving point of view. How to fix it? As gamebreaking as it is, stealth timers must be ended immediately on damage in wvw. At the same time reduce stealth timers in general to make up for the culling. Personally id like stealth to be removed, added with something like camouflage on non movement, but I doubt many would agree with me on that, so im not gonna discuss it, its just my personal preference as I believe fighting something you see (especially when fighting classes who initially CANT stealth) is more entertaining than the current state. And please dont give me any infractions for this that Im writing. If you feel offended go out and breathe.

Its obvious from your suggestion that you want stealth removed. Yea adjust stealth timers and reduce stealth timers. Or just have the mesmer in your zerg run mass invis maybe? I am sure there is a mesmer in every zerg. Its not like Red server has access to mass invis but blue and green don’t. Everyone is affected by culling so while it sucks its not like 1 server doesn’t get culling and the other does.

Just make the argument to fix culling instead of trying to adjust class abilities for a bug that everyone gets.

Also to add sPvP doesn’t get effected by culling like WvW. So yea great suggestion lets adjust those stealth timers and further weaken the thief in sPvP.

Sifu.6527:

/facepalm. Getting desperate man…

What’s next? 20 Norn with snow leop elite stealth at the same time forcing culling?

We need to nerf Norns and Snow leopards!!! They have to much mobility and they get invis with knockbacks. Have you guys fought a group of 5 norns its impossible to win.

Musty.3148:

oZii.2864:

Musty.3148:

Magiofdeath.2745:

Well, this is definitely a different post – hearing about the experience from the other side (the thief side). Regardless, this will end up in linksville just like the other thief post. I agree with your post though.

Hell, I’ve been saying this for months, I stopped playing my 80 thief because it’s an imbarassingly easy class to curbstomp people with. Any of you kids playing them should be imbarrassed for picking and continuing to play such an imbarrassingly OP class.

I can stealth into a zerg, DPS someone down, restealth, stomp and SB out in about 5 seconds without taking 1 damage. I did it all the time, literally.

If I get into a fight and start getting wrecked, Just TP/SB/Stealth out, reset the fight, go back in and curbstomp the poor fool(s) that used all their cooldowns to try to kill me.

Anyone that is Pro-stealth as is is really just kidding themselves. It’s way out of whack probably because of the culling. But they really need to make a short term fix until they can get culling fixed or it’s going to cost a lot of players.

Well then you curb stomped someone not good if they blew all the cooldowns to kill you. Also if you leave combat they leave combat so they regen just like you. Anybody with half decent knowledge knows that a burst thief flow chart is if you don’t get a insta kill, Heal or shadow refuge and or reset. If they stand around waiting on you to come back thats their fault.

Also why is it a problem if a thief can get kills in a zerg or you downed 1 person out of say 15 attacking a keep all thats gonna happen is the people will rez him for his daily. Its not like a thief is great at AOE outside of short bow. I am pretty sure when you are zerg killing the last classes picked are guardians. I rather have a rifle warrior blasting people on top of the keep and a thief down below distracting and causing panic. Than a thief up top shooting slow cluster bombs and a warrior at the bottom trying to kill people though the warrior can do both really well.

Killing 1 person in a zerg isn’t going to stop the zerg from taking a keep. A warrior with fall reduction can jump down knocking people away bull rush someone and hb an unsuspecting person and still make it back inside. Happens all the time.

If they stand around? There isn’t a class that can get away! The mobility allows you to catch ANYONE that runs, including Eles.

And a “reset” really is only a few seconds, I’m back in as soon as Init is back. They have 40 second cooldowns. Regenerating health is a non-issue, I don’t CARE if they regen, I’m gonna get it back down in 5 seconds.

I’ll give you the point that in a zerg you are not as effective as say a bunker ele, guardian, etc. But that isn’t what they are made for and it isn’t the point. I only used the zerg example to say I wouldn’t take ANY damage, at all, not one point. In short if you’re running a thief in a zerg (imo) you’re doing it wrong.

If they decide to leave the area then your gonna have to burn a cooldown or initiative to catch them. Thats why they can in essence leave if you chase and want the kill your gonna have to burn ini to catch up to them with either bow or heartseeker or blow shadow step or inil arrow. A ranger can get good distance, warrior, mesmer, all costing you to blow ini.

What are you doing in 5secs to get the health down? Running 25 in DA, 30 in Crit executioner trait and 15 in trick the standard gc setup? Your only getting ini back with klepto or infil sig, unless your running roll for initiative and you have a chance to proc opportunist.

if your running 10,30,30,0,0 Then you have some burst and can get ini back with infusion of shadows but you still are running on a 12 ini pool as opposed to 15. So its not like you can chase all day without a way to get back in stealth to regen the ini then you cant really just move away reset and chase them back down. There are plenty of classes if not all of them that can put enough distance gap in there that yea you can catch up to them sure but your gonna have to blow half if not all of your initiative just to do so even with SoS.

Svarty.8019:

• If WvW is not meant to be played solo, then why are thieves allowed to?

Video of warrior fighting multiple opponents, multiple thieves and guardians, solo roaming WvW. Its a really good video.

You can tell this guy knows how to play since he makes them waste dodges. He also hits the thieves in stealth many times.

Musty.3148:

Magiofdeath.2745:

Well, this is definitely a different post – hearing about the experience from the other side (the thief side). Regardless, this will end up in linksville just like the other thief post. I agree with your post though.

Hell, I’ve been saying this for months, I stopped playing my 80 thief because it’s an imbarassingly easy class to curbstomp people with. Any of you kids playing them should be imbarrassed for picking and continuing to play such an imbarrassingly OP class.

I can stealth into a zerg, DPS someone down, restealth, stomp and SB out in about 5 seconds without taking 1 damage. I did it all the time, literally.

If I get into a fight and start getting wrecked, Just TP/SB/Stealth out, reset the fight, go back in and curbstomp the poor fool(s) that used all their cooldowns to try to kill me.

Anyone that is Pro-stealth as is is really just kidding themselves. It’s way out of whack probably because of the culling. But they really need to make a short term fix until they can get culling fixed or it’s going to cost a lot of players.

Well then you curb stomped someone not good if they blew all the cooldowns to kill you. Also if you leave combat they leave combat so they regen just like you. Anybody with half decent knowledge knows that a burst thief flow chart is if you don’t get a insta kill, Heal or shadow refuge and or reset. If they stand around waiting on you to come back thats their fault.

Also why is it a problem if a thief can get kills in a zerg or you downed 1 person out of say 15 attacking a keep all thats gonna happen is the people will rez him for his daily. Its not like a thief is great at AOE outside of short bow. I am pretty sure when you are zerg killing the last classes picked are guardians. I rather have a rifle warrior blasting people on top of the keep and a thief down below distracting and causing panic. Than a thief up top shooting slow cluster bombs and a warrior at the bottom trying to kill people though the warrior can do both really well.

Killing 1 person in a zerg isn’t going to stop the zerg from taking a keep. A warrior with fall reduction can jump down knocking people away bull rush someone and hb an unsuspecting person and still make it back inside. Happens all the time.

Your topic will soon be merged with the other topic enjoy it while it lasts here.

OP is targeting low levels and other thieves.

Also attack a large group of people and kill all of them. Yea this one made me rofl. Large group of people like what? 3

Also OP says Thief is fine in PvE!!! Thats news to me. When I run a dungeon or fractals I go on my mesmer its like 10x better at PvE than my thief. What are you running in PvE? The same glass you are in WvW since thats what it sounds like your running. If so then you must not be running alot of PvE. I love my thief but its the last class I want in a group if Im running a dungeon. I’m not saying I would kick a thief I wouldn’t but its just I prefer not to have one in the group when I PvE. I just keep that thought to myself and deal with it.

Despina.6970:

Faeyd.5094:

That’s a big BS against that armor. To ensure I get to land something like that I have to run a terrible set of skills and traits and runes (all geared to badly hurting someone with less than 50% health) and then hit Bas venom -> Signet 1 -> signet 2 -> signet 3 (for 15 stacks of might total) -> C&D -> Steal -> Backstab.

It’s a 7 key combo. Then you can imagine what happens if you had hit the block or dodge key. Not much left in the bank.

So what? It remains just stupid to do this much dam on 3300 armor. And really good advice to block or dodge, when you get hit almost instant and are in a fight. And if he really misses, no problem just stealth run away and try again.

Its not like you get hit for that much all the time!! Its a crit he got lucky its not like every time he strikes you he is going to do that much damage every single time. You know he can NOT crit. It happens its crits dude omg. Also a thief running what he said is so gimmicky the only thing they have to stealth is CnD or the heal. They can heal and by time they come out of stealth their will not be recharged rofl. Do some research man. If they leave the area to get out of combat you do the same your both replenishing health jeez.

stof.9341:

Rangers got rapid fire and that bird summon that tracks the thief through stealth and shows the world where he is. That’s harsh enough of a stealth counter as it is.

Yea I hate that bird move OMG.

I play a thief when I run P/D condi spec D/D eles are much easier for me to handle since I can keep conditions on the constantly basically filling the condi removal que. Now that I am running d/p and s/d if the ele is full bunker I tap them a few times to confirm bunker and then leave since its not worth it. If you really want to stay around for 15-20 minutes to try and kill a bunker ele just to have someone roll up to get in the mix friend or foe then by all means go ahead.

Clarification I have no problem with ele’s in their current state honestly. If I can’t kill them I can’t kill them I know they can’t kill me unless I want to stay and fight. Not every class has the luxury of mobility I know that much but if its not full bunker then you can kill them. You should be able to tell if your fighting a bunker or not when you hit them without protection up. From there people just need to decide to either fight or just leave.

theoretical.9862:

Here’s an idea, but keep in mind that I’ve only played this game for about 200 hours, so I’m by no means an expert.

Separation of PvP and PvE
Us thief players know very well that thieves can do very well in PvP but get kicked around in PvE. I personally know this all too well. I always find myself thinking in dungeons, “Why am I the only one getting downed? It’s not like I don’t dodge, and I do spec for some Vitality/Toughness.” I look around and all the other classes never get downed once. In PvP, we are some of the toughest players to beat if you don’t know how to counter thieves. That’s a huge issue: the huge gap between PvP and PvE is extremely hard to balance. When you buff in PvE, you end up buffing PvP, and next thing you know, thieves are mediocre in PvE and completely trash the other classes in PvP. So I suggest having different stats for PvP and PvE. That way, ANet has a much easier time of balancing the two. From what I’ve read, this was implemented in GW1 and things didn’t go too well. However, I trust that ANet learned a lesson or two and try this again.

Let me know if there’s something that would make this idea not work. I’d like to hear what the community has to say about this.

If you do this for thief then you have to do it for all classes. Honestly thief is probably the only class that ever talks about how weak we are in pve. At the same token I don’t see a ton of threads popping up saying (insert class) is OP in PvE. Though it isn’t as bad as people make it out to be if it was everyone and there parents would roll thieves. I see more d/d eles than I see thieves probably more rangers too. Thief was already nerfed in sPvP but they didn’t touch thief really in WvW my guess is that they didn’t think it was necessary from whatever metric they use.

Seriously d/d ele is king in sPvP and WvW right now. I am not complaining about the class I just know after I tap it a few times and I can tell its full bunker I troll a bit and then leave cause its a waste of time. If its full bunker ele I would “have” to run SoS to stay on top of it and Bow so they cant run and heal. I don’t run either of those in my damage set as I would rather run s/d as my other set and a diff utility than SoS. If I run those I have no problem killing them but I choose not to run those just for D/D eles. I have no problem with that I am referring to WvW since the landscape is so large they have tons of room to leave and heal. The problem is people think if they see it they should kill it. A thief, d/d ele, and warrior specced for mobility are just going to get away if they want people just have to accept it.

meh its up to you but here you go will tell you how much your bleeds do at what condition damage total. You will see that the difference is not alot between 1100 and 1300 then take how much 1 tick of bleed each will do over the course of how long your bleed lasts.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AguEzkdPhmNhdFFaMkg2MUxOSU9RS3ZLX2FpbHNmSGc#gid=0

Despina.6970:

oZii.2864:

What level sPvP is this? Thieves are scarce at higher level sPvP. Hot join yea ok thats just some free for all half the time. Can’t balance thieves based on Rabbit sPvP.

Why not? I thought the aim of good class design should be balance overall. So in your opinion its ok for new players to be killed in 1 sec. Lets see how long this game will survive without new players.

Uhhh no if a new player doesn’t know his class and those of his opponents how do you balance for that guy? Except make is super easy for him to land attacks, big markers over thieves head with words that say baslisk venom is up dodge this!!. Or a option for auto roll or auto stun break when you take 10% damage.

You can’t balance for that guy. People need to do some kind of research on their own. Why wouldn’t you obviously there are people that can’t even use the search function which is why there are countless threads in all the class forums asking the same questions over and over again i.e. what gear should I use for condition damage, whats best damage gear, whats a good damage build.

GW2 doesn’t spoon feed and I am glad it doesn’t it leaves things up to discovery, trying traits on your own experimentation. I don’t want it to be X player makes a build with some fancy name like “Here is my guerrila build its BOSS” and that build becomes the standard its supreme optimal nothing else can beat it. Then everyone runs it exactly the same.

Go look in the PvE forums when there was this big uproar about ORR and 1 of the things Anet put out about the mobs in ORR was dodging the easily telegraphed Purifiers axe pull. People complained saying that they don’t dodge on their character why should they be forced to dodge lol. I don’t want it balanced for that guy no thanks.

At the highest level of sPvP is what you want to balance. If thieves are scarce at the highest level of sPvP then that means most of the opponents up at that level know how thieves work and really render them almost useless. Thieves at the highest level exist to take out bunkers for the most part. If thieves couldn’t take out bunkers why would you bring them? Your sure not holding a point with stealth.

Despina.6970:

LOCO.1785:

It’s funny how opinions vary isn’t it?

Every time I face a thief, I think:

Is the damage too high?

No, it’s just right. The main meta I come across is the gimmicky glass cannon/burst build. They sacrifice all their defense to hit you with that one burst. Most people expect this when facing thieves, it’s also one reason I always carry a stun break (bulls rush+frenzy+100 blades combo is the other reason). I never lose to this fotm cookie cutter build, the result is usually a dead thief or if they get lucky they escape my grasp and run for their life. If they miss their burst, they’re toast, plain & simple.

Is the mobility too high?

Nope. Thief is squishy and needs abilites to get away. Jumping up walls, ledges is lame if it were possible and it sounds like you haven’t had much experience using this yourself. You can only get to elevated areas that your toon is capable of running up ie. you can’t run up walls.

Is the stealth ok?

Absolutely. It’s the thieves main source of offense/defense. Without stealth, thieves are sitting targets. They can trait for dodging, but that will only get you so far and would cut down even more on viable builds. Thieves already have the 3 sec revealed debuff after stealthing, so it’s not something they can keep spamming straight away. They’re also not unkillable gods when they enter stealth, they’re still just as weak as when they’re unstealthed, you just cannot see them. Either spam the area with AoE or do what I do and auto attack where you think they are, I can tell I’m hitting the thief when my auto attack combo registers. It really is not rocket science… If a thief pops shadow refuge, guess where you will find him, that’s right within the refuge radius. If a thief hits you with C&D it’s a safe bet he will also go for a backstab.

Culling is an issue currently, but this is no cause to nerf the thief unjustly.

In most cases, these complaints are just L2P issues. Sorry if that hurts anyones egos, but that’s what it comes down to.

Let me guess, you play a thief? Of course nothing seems op to you. Perhaps you can explain me one thing: Why are there always 50% or more thieves in every spvp match? Is it because they are so hard to play? Is it because they are so underpowered and everyone loves a real challenge? Is it because 50% of all players always play stealth classes (don’t think so). I guess the real reason is, that thieves are the most stupid class in the game. Today I got 10000 dam with the bs combo on 3300 armor in 1 sec. Thats just silly.

What level sPvP is this? Thieves are scarce at higher level sPvP. Hot join yea ok thats just some free for all half the time. Can’t balance thieves based on Rabbit sPvP.

DanH.5879:

so, in conclusion:
caltrops is op, backstab is still op,C&D is op, our agility is op, stealth is op, even our healing is op
what are you guys smoking ??? because i want some too ^^

IKR that healing Shadow refuge thread was really funny lol.

Turbofan.4569:

The Thief skill Caltrops is severly bugged making it extremely over powered.

Bug #1. When cast from stealth this skill does NOT reveal the thief. They remain stealthed.

Bug #2. When cast from stealth there is no red circle indicating the AOE.

Bug #3 The skill actually applies 2 stacks of bleed per second instead of the 1 stack per second like it should…. thus making this skill do DOUBLE the damage it was intended to do.

So when you take that it all into perspective a thief can cast Caltrops from stealth without revealing themselves, his victim(s) cannot get out of the area because they have no idea where the AOE is and the skill does double damage.

This skill is routinely abused by Cloak and Dagger spamming, condition focused theives. It is severly overpowered.

Please fix this immediately.

Ok I don’t know if thats a bug or not but yes it doesn’t break on stealth but in essence it isn’t a direct attack like choking gas which doesn’t break on stealth. I could see possibly a change to make it drop stealth if it connects I guess but I don’t its so easily avoidable and unless you stand in it your maybe getting 4 stacks if you get out of it as soon as its dropped.

It does show when casted from stealth just tested it 2 minutes ago. Maybe you are confused if they drop it from shadow refuge and drop caltrops then the redlines could overlap but they would have to be dead center of the refuge.

It does apply 2 stacks of bleeds per tick.

Thoughts easily avoidable damage. Its really only good if you get 1 person down in a group and drop it on rezzers or cluttered people other than that. Its just good to keep spacing against melee.

Turbofan.4569:

The Thief skill Caltrops is severly bugged making it extremely over powered.

Bug #1. When cast from stealth this skill does NOT reveal the thief. They remain stealthed.

Bug #2. When cast from stealth there is no red circle indicating the AOE.

Bug #3 The skill actually applies 2 stacks of bleed per second instead of the 1 stack per second like it should…. thus making this skill do DOUBLE the damage it was intended to do.

So when you take that it all into perspective a thief can cast Caltrops from stealth without revealing themselves, his victim(s) cannot get out of the area because they have no idea where the AOE is and the skill does double damage.

This skill is routinely abused by Cloak and Dagger spamming, condition focused theives. It is severly overpowered.

Please fix this immediately.

Huh? Im gonna have to go check this out I know when I fight Condition thieves I see the red circle when they drop it in stealth.

When I roll condi just the other day I was stealth dropped it on the bridge and everyone was on the outside avoiding it.

Also there is no conspiracy by Anet they use data, graphs etc. They aren’t trying to sweep anything under the rug. You felt your thread needed attention you don’t think this feedback thread is enough? Did you actually look at the thief forums first before posting? My guess is you did and chose a place to make your point surrounded by people you felt would agree with you.

A simple glance at the feedback forum and a little effort would have totally showed you that people who share your opinions have stated the same arguments. Cloak and Dagger on keep wals is old like 3 months ago. Search on reddit would have pulled that up for you. Thief standing out side bl keep CnDing on the outside of the wall stacking stealth. Seen it debated already.

Shrilly.7184:

Like i thought all pro thief yep threads dead in the water now was a good debate while we had a lot of other people put in their 2 cents, its like a bunch of Romney supporters going to an Obama campaign he will just never win.

Sooo I just looked at your post history and you don’t really make any good arguments to be honest. You posted videos and then said see look at this look what he did in this zerg. Then people refute it by saying he didnt kill a zerg cause he didn’t. He always picked people he thinks are squishy most people usually can tell what classes tend to roll squishy.

Is your point that they go invis and you can’t kill them 1v1? They can jump in a zerg and pick people off (I guess you don’t like a thief dropping your man power during siege time I suppose)

Then you pick another video about a thief staying in a keep and soloing a tower. What does that have to do with a thief killing people in a zerg? 9/10 its a down not a stomp since people rez. Anyway a thief soloing a keep is different than a thief killing people in zergs.

I totally lost what your point is after looking at your post your all over the place, you mention damage in a post to prove your point, culling in another, able to kill multiple people in another, taking a tower solo which is totally different than the above.

I am sure the keep lord and guards in the tower don’t have a issue with culling, the damage a thief does, they have alot of channeled spells that follow the thief anyway. Try to Cloak and dagger when a vet guard is healing or vet archer they will spin in circles as they heal.

Stiv.1820:

oZii.2864:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHgkx2w4LrY

A whole bunch of thieves losing and being hit in stealth I like this video I approve

“I saw you… surprise!”

Perfect example. This war is great. Now watch everyone come out and say how all those Thieves must suck etc etc. Learn to Play works when it suits them.

I know I love the part when he acted like he was afk cause he knew the thief would try to get him rofl.

I doubt many will come out and say the thieves suck cause half the people making arguments have no clue how the thief works.

Sovereign.1093:

Noice.8730:

Sovereign.1093:

>.< maguuma bay fight was awesome >3<

You guys almost got it back

Haha they deleted the post. Do they actually have people reading this every 15 minutes? Dang!

. I hope so.

How’s the Filipino community in Ebay?

[Guam] is an all Filipino guild on Ebay Jackie Lautchang is the GL. I play with Jackie alot thats how I remember how to spell that last name.

Look people you can’t put theif skills on a cooldown not weapon skills they suck. Thieves skills are good with the initiative system. If you made them regular with cooldowns nobody would ever touch a thief. Those skills are in no way good enough to be cooldown skills period.

Most skills from classes allow sometime of burst to happen, or allow the entire attack to hit etc it gives some kind of advantage since it is on cooldown. Take a mesmer for example the only skill that is semi lackluster on Greatsword is mind stab but its still good.

Assume a mesmer doesn’t have access to clones and is just the skills they have on greatsword and lets say sword pistol. You put them on the initiative resource system. That class becomes the best class in the entire game with the skills they already have with out access to clones. Lets say GS 5 is 6 ini like cloak and dagger and lets say the mesmer wields 2 pistols and does an unload type attack. that costs 6 ini.

So a mesmer would have initiative to manage ileap, blurred frenzy, unload, Mind stab, a really good ranged auto attack on greatsword, a sword throw granting might when it bounces back and applying vulnerability, ranged attack that strips boons, and a interrupt that is a knock back and a 900-1200 range 2 sec stun that bounces to 3 targets 4 if traited for another stun. You gotta be kidding me that class becomes the strongest in the game because those are really really good abilities. Thats without clones and we didn’t even talk utilities. We didn’t talk staff, scepter, torch.

Imagine a staff mesmer/scepter+pistol confusion mesmer(without access to clones) 12 stacks of confusion No Problem! Let me hit this skill 3 twice. Let me give myself retaliation and stack some more confusion on you.

Oh you wanna attack let me spam this chaos armor, and this chaos storm. Uh oh rooted. Let me press phase retreat 2 times in a row come get me noob. Lol.

Rofl yes please I’ll take that over anything else out there. So I just reversed it you gotta be kidding me. You can’t just say give thief cooldown !! It doesnt work like that.

Its also a weak suggestion and argument

]

you mean you don’t think this is balanced? HOW DARE YOU?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7OYniHrGqE

OMG rofl the title is there for attention that is why its called zerg slaying.

That first fight he downed maybe 2 people all he did was troll and eventually he died. Do people even watch the videos they submit. He didnt even do anything effective there accept make somebody have to pay repair bill.

That first group was taking the camp anyway all they basically did was defend the camp. They could have left 2 people there and they could have held that thief off.

A whole bunch of thieves losing and being hit in stealth I like this video I approve

I would like to present into evidence this fine piece of work just posted on reddit by this Warrior a whole video dedicated to roaming vs multiple opponents I don’t alot about warriors but dat damage o.O.

inb4 you can dodge (yea bads blow everything at the beginning, thinking people make you waste dodges)

skupuz.6940:

Agree with you.

They need to tone down the following traits.

Infusion of shadow – Reduce to 1 init regen instead of 2
Infitrator Signat – Init regen remove and replace
Quick recovery – Remove and replace
Patience – Remove and replace
Quick Pockets – Remove and replace
Hastened Replenishment – Remove and replace
Kleptomaniac – Remove and replace

I didn’t touch preparedness as it gives us roughly 20-25% more resources which is in line with cool down decrease that other classes have.

Initiative allows use to spam abilities. We pick and chose which attack to use within the constraint of the overall init pool. When we have too much of it or the init regen is out of control, it is unbalance. When other classes can only achieves 20-25% reduction in CD, it think it is safe to say a 50-75% recharge rate on init is too much. We shouldn’t be able to have our cake and eat it too…

You can’t compare thieves abilities to other classes straight up like that. Do other classes have it were 1 weapon set has abilities on cd and it affects the other set? No.

If I blow all my ini on bow and switch to d/d pretty much all of that is in effect on cooldown. Also the abilities that other classes have don’t compare to what thieves have if you compare cooldown abilites to thieves weapon abilities. If all the D/D weaponset abilities acted like other classes on cooldown nobody in there right mind would play a thief because none of those abilities if you tied a cooldown to them is worth it at all. That is why you can’t just straight up compare thieves abilities to other classes.

Another note is that interrupts and knock backs effect your ini basically wasting it.

we should be getting a patch tomorrow or tuesday, odds on nerf or buff are probably in favor of buff.

Stop chasing the thief I am not reading any of these complaints your all chasing thieves and distracted go do something productive. It doesn’t matter that you can’t kill him 1v1 cause WvW isnt about 1v1 or 1v2 or 1v3.

rofl just got killed trying to pick off idari with a zerg around lol.

Straegen.2938:

oZii.2864:

For anyone that roams Eternal battlegrounds watch out for Kome guild has a ele and a Mesmer that love them some gears.

For anyone playing WvW watch out for [server/guild/player] using [exploit/cheat/playing better than me].

I think the above statement should go without saying in most cases.

This was actually specific cause I like to troll the Kome guild they are on early in the morning eternal battlegrounds around the ogre camp and north of SM around their spawn. That is how much I troll them lol. Its not hard feeling I like trolling people heck they made me go get some gears rofl but I only use them on Kome people though so I’m legit!!!

For anyone that roams Eternal battlegrounds watch out for Kome guild has a ele and a Mesmer that love them some gears.

Fyi Gears, Spikeroot fruit, peg leg(whatever that is) and that skale venom will be not useable when the next build comes out. Guessing monday

Swamurabi.7890:

He’s looking at the wrong metric. I have one of each profession so I cancel myself out. I have a three armor set Necro main lvl 80, a ungeared lvl 80 guardian, a lvl 63 WvW ele, a lvl 30 mes and thief, a lvl 4 ranger and a lvl 2 eng and war.

Anet needs to look at what professions are being played where and for how long with what weapons to see where they need to achieve balance.

He is looking at the right metric this was also included in that same quote explaining the graph that Anet uses

(Before the lunch started, Colin spoke about a chart displayed in the office that tracks live results of how many of each class and race are being played, so when one class becomes OP, it shows on the chart. At the moment, all classes are at a level field, with a slight increase in warriors and a slight dip in engineers. Races are hugely different, with humans and norn hitting the highest rolled races, and charr being the lowest.)

Ozx.5683:

oZii.2864:

Ozx.5683:

oZii.2864:

Ozx.5683:

Daendur.2357:

Ozx.5683:

Daendur.2357:

seriously 4 players and you go down ? lol

your missing the point again. It will be 2 thieves not even attempting to kill the enemy players. not running away. just dodge rolling and C&D until we get downed then reviving each other.

this is nonsense.
what’s the point in trolling bad players ?

Your making the assumption that they are going to be bad players. Im making a point that it doesnt matter how good the enemy is. The ability to survive with this tactic is 100% up to the thiefs ability. This is a bad design for any type of competitive game and its why i made this thread to begin with.

He is saying that your only gonna be able to troll bad players using that method you described that is why he said that. Good players arent gonna blow interrupts vs 2 thieves just cause its time for that in their comfortable rotation.

If the players stick around while you dodge roll and CnD on them all the way until your health pool is depleted they are probably bad players. I would get bored and just move on and my guess is they probably will too.

So your okay with there being a class in the game that can never die if they choose to do so? lol what a joke

Thief is suppose is designed that way to engage and disengage as they sit fit. That is due to mobility more so than stealth. Thieves aren’t invincible and the fact that your implying they are shows your reaching here in this thread as been pointed out. Go make your video ok cause right now you make no sense.

Lets say you are being serious as 2 thieves trying to kill 4 people you might have to chose to use your refuge to secure a stomp or save it defensively. If you attempted to use your refuge to secure a stomp then how are you gonna save your buddy if he goes down? Pros cons, risk vs reward.

This is how your video will go 4 people you and a buddy go in cnd on them dodge rolling they do damage to you and 1 of you goes down assuming you get a successful rez then you will try to stall for close to 60 secs until your buddies SR is off cooldown dodge rolling etc you might be forced totally distance enough to leave combat and go back in an repeat. Accomplishing absolutely nothing. Also not making your point that its over powered either.

Actually it would be 48 seconds until its back up and you wouldnt have to stall that long because you have two of them available for use. Using it while low on life right before you get killed will allow you to actually revive yourself most of the time

Anyway just bump this when you made the video. I can’t wait for the lulz

Ozx.5683:

oZii.2864:

Ozx.5683:

Daendur.2357:

Ozx.5683:

Daendur.2357:

seriously 4 players and you go down ? lol

your missing the point again. It will be 2 thieves not even attempting to kill the enemy players. not running away. just dodge rolling and C&D until we get downed then reviving each other.

this is nonsense.
what’s the point in trolling bad players ?

Your making the assumption that they are going to be bad players. Im making a point that it doesnt matter how good the enemy is. The ability to survive with this tactic is 100% up to the thiefs ability. This is a bad design for any type of competitive game and its why i made this thread to begin with.

He is saying that your only gonna be able to troll bad players using that method you described that is why he said that. Good players arent gonna blow interrupts vs 2 thieves just cause its time for that in their comfortable rotation.

If the players stick around while you dodge roll and CnD on them all the way until your health pool is depleted they are probably bad players. I would get bored and just move on and my guess is they probably will too.

So your okay with there being a class in the game that can never die if they choose to do so? lol what a joke

Thief is suppose is designed that way to engage and disengage as they sit fit. That is due to mobility more so than stealth. Thieves aren’t invincible and the fact that your implying they are shows your reaching here in this thread as been pointed out. Go make your video ok cause right now you make no sense.

Lets say you are being serious as 2 thieves trying to kill 4 people you might have to chose to use your refuge to secure a stomp or save it defensively. If you attempted to use your refuge to secure a stomp then how are you gonna save your buddy if he goes down? Pros cons, risk vs reward.

This is how your video will go 4 people you and a buddy go in cnd on them dodge rolling they do damage to you and 1 of you goes down assuming you get a successful rez then you will try to stall for close to 60 secs until your buddies SR is off cooldown dodge rolling etc you might be forced totally distance enough to leave combat and go back in an repeat. Accomplishing absolutely nothing. Also not making your point that its over powered either.

Your also going to cherry pick your 4 people as I am sure you wont attempt this vs 2+ guardians.

My guess is one of your 4 people will either be a minion master necro, a mesmer, or a ranger. I bet you want all 3

Ozx.5683:

Daendur.2357:

Ozx.5683:

Daendur.2357:

seriously 4 players and you go down ? lol

your missing the point again. It will be 2 thieves not even attempting to kill the enemy players. not running away. just dodge rolling and C&D until we get downed then reviving each other.

this is nonsense.
what’s the point in trolling bad players ?

Your making the assumption that they are going to be bad players. Im making a point that it doesnt matter how good the enemy is. The ability to survive with this tactic is 100% up to the thiefs ability. This is a bad design for any type of competitive game and its why i made this thread to begin with.

He is saying that your only gonna be able to troll bad players using that method you described that is why he said that. Good players arent gonna blow interrupts vs 2 thieves just cause its time for that in their comfortable rotation.

If the players stick around while you dodge roll and CnD on them all the way until your health pool is depleted they are probably bad players. I would get bored and just move on and my guess is they probably will too.

EasymodeX.4062:

It would be absolutely fabulous to have WvW use the sPvP ruleset / gear / etc.

Because it’s a kittening PvP game mode.

But they won’t because they’re still stuck to WoW design paradigm.

Never gonna happen

Ozx.5683:

Daendur.2357:

seriously 4 players and you go down ? lol

your missing the point again. It will be 2 thieves not even attempting to kill the enemy players. not running away. just dodge rolling and C&D until we get downed then reviving each other.

So trolling which accomplishes? Trolling

So your point is you can mess with 4 people not kill them then revive each other? What is the point of that except trolling. How does that prove your point about shadow refuge?

Ozx.5683:

Im done trying to make a point. For whatever reason you guys are ignoring logic and bringing up pointless information that does nothing to argue my stance. I’ll come back here eventually with a video of me and another thief played to the benny hill theme of just endlessly reviving each other next to 4 or more enemy players. Maybe then you’ll be able to understand

Ill wait for that video to never happen. How will you endlessly revive each other when your shadow refuge is on a cooldown? Oh you mean you will troll some people I could see that but you aren’t killing them and trying to prove your point about shadow refuge at the same time thats not gonna happen. You either use it defensively or offensively.

Ozx.5683:

Laika.8795:

Ozx.5683:

As for the screenshot this is in heart of the mists with 0 healing gear. you can easily get around +200 with ascended gear. the regen is at 749hp a second 420329

What ascended gear is going to give me an increased 700 healing power, and also not be worthless otherwise? Because that’s what it would take to add +200 health to both those skills respectively (.1x(HP) for Shadow’s Rejuvenation, .18x(HP) for Shadow Refuge)…

Count ME in!

it would go to around 820 hp a second with +200 healing which is actually closer to the 1k estimate i had then your ~600 estimate. So i admit i was a little bit off with my calculations but My point still stands that it heals for enough to keep you and your ally from dying in the 3 seconds

as for there gear:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Triforge_Pendant_
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lunaria,_Circle_of_the_Moon
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ancient_Karka_Shell

and +60 from rune of divinity

Come on OZX how many thieves you really believe are running around with those. Do you know many thief players? At best Maybe triforge, and a karka shell. I know alot of thieves from my server, from magumma, from yaks bend, I have never once seen any of those pop up. I have seen divinity runes but majority of the time a thief is running valks,zerker,carrion, scholar runes, ogre runes, krait, afflicted, rune of wurm, those are probably the most popular choices.

Ozx.5683:

Two bunker guardians are going to have a hard time killing people effectively. And the fact that they have pretty much 0 escape/chasing power. Regardless of this we could discuss balance on other classes for ages. the point i’m trying to make is that you could have two thieves vs 5 or even 6 players and you wouldn’t ever be able to take them out if they played perfectly.

Well of course they are bunkers and bunkers should know they are giving up damage for survivablility.

2 thieves 6 players seriously? I thought your point was about shadow refuge and rezzing I am pretty sure at 1 point or another 1 or both of those thieves is going to pop shadow refuge and with 6 players there somebody has to have a interrupt of some sort.

2 thieves vs 6 elementalist rofl Ill take the eles playing sloppy to kill both thieves
2 thieves vs 6 mesmers 1 of them has to have a greatsword, Im sure somebody has a focus, a pistol, a staff.
2 thieves vs 6 guardians Ill take the guardians impossible to kill impossible to get a stomp with so many blinds and interrupts knockbacks.

Could go on and on but I’m sure you get the point 2 thieves vs 6 players the 2 thieves at best could troll and annoy. What will happen is those 6 players will stand around and chase said thieves when if they just kept on going to take a camp or whatever then if the thieves want to try to kill someone they are gonna have to blow initiative to stay engaged.

That is the problem in almost ever thief vs X scenario I have been in its so easy to get people sidetracked when if they just left the scene I then play in there hands if I chase them. Instead people chase me.

ComeAndSee.1356:

DanH.5879:

they still have no clue that pve<>pvp<>wvw in terms of balance…

Balance the game around PvP first and then adjust the PvE accordingly.

I mean, the only real difference between PvP and PvE is mobs stand still in PvE.

Crit damage
Food buffs
Confusion damage
Some skills do different damage in sPvP than PvE
Gear
defiant buff on champs
Lets remove that so PvE can be even more faceroll than it is lol.

If Anet came out and said ok we are gonna rebalance everything around sPvP stats and tweak from there. It would be ascended gear complaining all over again. That would also take them a while to do that. Each one of the things I listed above is on 5 but those 5 connect like a spider web to everything else.

Ozx.5683:

DancinPuppeh.8421:

It’s 9.5 seconds of stealth. And it’s the only stealth we have that’s viable for complete stealth. The rest are 3 seconds or 4 seconds with traits. Also Shadow Refuge is on a LONG cooldown, no thief will use it for revives and if they do their not a good thief. Shadow Refuge is generally used as a reset. When things don’t go their way they can Stealth out and get out. And before you say it’s OP that we can get out of any situation any time, that’s the whole point of Thief.

People who say remove Shadow Refuge, and remove stealth make me angry. Cause that’s equal to saying Remove pets from Ranger, remove Clones from Mesmer, remove Turrets from Engineers… It’s the exact same.

I feel the thief has too LITTLE stealth as apposed to too much. I’d like more long stealth so I could truly sneak up on people and attack them when they don’t expect it. With these stealth I can’t really do that as I need to use my stealth while I’m in their sight, so they see it coming before I attack.

Maybe you should try reading my entire post next time, I specifically said I didn’t want it removed or changed drastically. Not only that you completely ignored my point about it only being extremely powerful when combined with another thief that has it. Also i never mentioned anything about other stealth abilities I’m not sure why your being so incredibly defensive.

Well if your looking at it from the aspect of 2 thieves and thats your argument then you must include the same of the 2 other classes in that situation. 2 bunker Guardians are a pain to kill. 2 mesmers 6 clones, shatters, confusion and interrupts another pain is this 2v2 we are talking if so you gotta include 2 of the same opposing classes to have a good argument.

Also the cd is 60 secs on SR it honestly isn’t worth it to take Master of Deception over the other traits in SA I don’t know many people that take that trait. You take infusion of shadow, shadows embrace, shadows rejuvination, or blind on stealth. Those are pretty much the common choices for that tree.

Honestly though if you aren’t saving your interrupt/knockback etc in a fight against a thief that is your issue really. Its like clockwork everyone should assume a thief runs SR after the opening burst if it fails its either the heal (most thieves move away from you when they are about to heal) or its SR. Don’t blow interrupts until SR comes I wish I could knock another thief out of SR but I make sure I interrupt the heal with headshot after you interrupt the heal 90% of the time its shadow refuge because its the oh no utility.

You interrupt SR then the thief is probably going to die or at least leave the area. Heck SR is the probably the best thing a thief brings to a group setting.

DanH.5879:

they still have no clue that pve<>pvp<>wvw in terms of balance…

I am sure the model goes something like sPvP balance, WvW+PvE balance. I honestly don’t have a problem with that. There are a very large amount of things different in WvW and sPvP. Thief for example since it uses the PvE ruleset in wvw as do all classes if you nerf it then you hurt it in PvE were it is already lacking. If you give WvW the sPvP ruleset then you have to do it for all the classes. Then you have to adjust all the mobs in WvWs health etc then if your rolling bunker its gonna take you an extra minute or 2 or more to kill a sentry, vet scouts, probably forever to take a camp your dps will drop dramatically since Crit damage is different in sPvP than PvE/WvW.

You can’t teleport out of the shadow refuge before the field barrier disappears otherwise you get revealed just like any other thief same applies when your down. I know I see guardians daily revive while tanking like 3 people its almost like they are totally confident that they wont die thats without them popping their own bubble.

Rynn.3041:

@oZii I see. What type of build would you suggest with P/D then? Im not entirely sure I understand condition damage specs entirely. Probably because my friends dislike of them. xD

Condition damage build run caltrops with it and things will die much faster. I run 0/0/30/20/20 when I go condition damage 3x krait runes 3x afflicted plus veggie pizza.

Source

http://dragonseason.com/Front/tabid/124/EntryId/211/Lunch-with-Colin-Johanson-Part-II.aspx

One of the aims of the game was to make every class feel unique, but also viable and fun to play in a variety of ways. What professions have been highlighted as a falling short of this target and what crazy ways have been tried internally to spice them up?

Colin: For me, every profession actually has a lot of different variety available to it. It’s just a matter of if you enjoy that playstyle or not. So I think people look at each profession and they’ll judge it based on “Do I enjoy playing the ways of this profession offers me to play?” And so just going around the table, everybody is playing a different main for the most part. There’s no thieves or warriors here but there’s plenty of them in game. So we know those are represented. We talked about that graph that’s up on the wall. We look at that every day based on what profession people creating and it’s almost always very close to being even across all professions. That’s a really good sign, that is very, very hard to do. In Guild Wars 1 it was not even relatively close to that. It’s a big difference between viability of playstyles versus, you know, not at all. I’m actually really impressed at how generally balanced the professions are. There are certain skills or abilities that all need to get better but across the professions it’s actually pretty decent. It’s just a matter of what playstyle are you interested in. The thing that we have to improve is look at weapons sets that aren’t interesting for that profession or don’t fit the playstyle that we’ve said that profession should have and bring those up to the point that are.

+1 for data feedback Anet!! So what I take from this is that they feel like pretty much every profession plays pretty much close to how they envision.

you can do it but it is terrible in my opinion, I have tried it with scholar runes etc all kinds of different way but its lackluster. You can always try anything if you like try it and see if you like it. If I was to save you some gold and time I would not recommend it.

The problem in my opinion revolves around the auto attack. Also if you don’t go condi and say you go full rabid or whatever else your looking at around 12-14k hp. Do you really want to have that little HP when you can’t get a cloak and dagger off and your spamming vital shot with its slow fire rate at 1 per second when dagger or sword would attack faster and put out much more damage.

This is ust my opinion and I have tried this with P/D and in the end I felt condition > damage with P/D. The way thief is made you basically want to try to maximize as much damage as possible when your revealed P/D is last on the totem pole. A damage bow build would probably be better with offhand dagger as the other set.

I always laugh when I run into direct damage P/D thieves cause its so crap.

I always look at the worse possible scenario when it comes to a build not best case. When you are fighting someone competent and can’t get a cloak and dagger vital shot is the last thing I want to have to rely on.

Take from my post what you will I tried this full glass, scholar runes, heavy crit anyway I could to make it work best I found was 10,10,30,0,20. Mugged in DA, 10% damage increase from Pistols in critical and then the normal. With around 15k HP eagle runes was what I found to be the best to make up for lack of crit chance.

What P/D excels at is that while your instealth if the bleeds arent wiped your enemy is still dying even when you arent attack, with direct damage you want to maintain uptime on target as much as you can so thats less time in stealth. Also if you find yourself as I did waiting on cloak and dagger and mugged combo for your burst then I started to think why not take another dagger for double damage in 1 strike as opposed to 5 sneak attack damage that about 3 of the bullets can be dodge on average

Sebrent.3625:

4 stunbreakers that are all utilities when you can only have 3 utilities? Lol.

Well you didn’t specify but those are utilities yes you are correct does it matter that you can only have 3 utilities mesmer still has the most stun breakers in the game. Its called options its not like every stun breaker for a mesmer does the exact same thing. Why wouldn’t you run decoy or mirror images on your bar anyway lol. Those are stables imo at least decoy is.

Thief has sword 2 that is a stun breaker that isnt a utility thats it but its not like you pop that cause your stunned you have to be on infiltrator return already to break stun as far as I know.

Yamato Shinobi.4378:

When fighting in a 1vs1 situation with all other classes (except the Thief), I have a lot of fun. The encounter is challenging and pretty much on a level where no one person has any major advantage over the other.

Good thing WvW isn’t about 1v1’s and there is no dueling option that rewards you for anything more than loot bags that you get anyway.

I would like to propose a serious question though. The 2 classes I feel I know the most about are thieves and mesmers since I have level 80’s on both and played both extensively.

Lets say you take a scenario even in WvW a duel by the windmill (usual spot) if you had to place money on same type teams vs 5 thieves which would you think comes out on top?

5 mesmers
5 warriors
5 guardians
5 necros
5 elementalists

Now playing a thief and a mesmer my honest opinion is that all of those classes would beat a 5 thief team. I think the other class that tieves have the best synergy with besides its own is elementalist. Other than that I feel like thieves really synergize with themself the best.

DanH.5879:

the thief is immune to CC because of so many stun break skills … oh wait.
it is me, or the deception shadowstep got nerfed in terms of time to use the 2nd skill? (like you have few seconds to use shadow return or loose it)

Mesmer have the most stun breakers in the game at 4 every other class has 3.

Moddo.7105:

oZii.2864:

I don’t understand why the op is asking for video of a thief losing in fights. If the people making arguments against thieves don’t believe that any thief dies then they have bigger issues like common sense.

Um not real complicated. He wants to watch some videos other than kill montages.

Hell he even states it in his post “How about making a video featuring fights you’ve lost to give other players an idea of what it takes to beat a thief?”

What is issue?

Oh I see in your deep fear of balancing that you know our class needs you are paranoid and think he is saying that thieves never die.

Yea I am totally in fear of balancing why would I be afraid of a game again? Oh I see you take the game to seriously and it causes you to break out in cold sweats at night I see.

I’ll entertain this though since november 15 (last nerf to thieves mostly in sPvP anyway) there havent been anything but buffs.

Asked about what class they are watching or feels like might need a balancing tweak they said d/d bunker eles possibly. That was about a month ago. So I’ll take the word of the devs over forum qq and prophecy proposers.

So I have no reason to think or believe anything but buffs if anything will happen to thieves. What do you have to support that they will do any balancing (implying nerf from the context of your post) to the thief. Nothing

Columba.9730:

So there’s culling in Spvp too? That’s good to know. I do know that thief skills were nerfed for Spvp, so perhaps perma stealth wouldn’t matter as much there, if it existed. If they want to fix. WvWvW in the same way, fine by me.

Rofl, this guy thieves damage was nerfed on cloak and dagger, dancing dagger, and cluster bomb. You see anything involving stealth there? 1 track mind lol.