Guild Wars 2

30/25/0/0/15 with a Barbarian amulet, it can put out heavy pressure and still sustain. You can go Berserker and really lay out the damage but it functions a lot like fresh air ele and will die without peels.

You at least need a single well utility and spectral armor, besides that its up to you. Its a staff + d/d build but it changing weapons would only effect its playstyle/optimization.

I think it is really great you listened to the community on reverting the proposed Deceptive Evasion change.

If only you had been this open to player feedback “pre-pax” and listened to all the necromancers begging you not to implement dhuumfire, you might not be scrambling for a way to justify it in game while we sweep up the pieces that were our “build diversity”.

Great concepts, poor execution, depressing timeframe. #GW2balance2015

@Hammerguard

Honestly, I hear this response a lot and I see where this instinct comes from. However, I believe ever placing a condi trait in the Spite trait line was a mistake for the following reasons.

1. Prior to Dhuumfire, there were no condition traits worth taking in this line and there still aren’t. Everyone picks up chill of death because it works regardless of having better power synergy and then whatever for adept slot as none are worth it. Since launch we had been stuck with the subpar substitute for CtD, “Axe Master” and no one ever ran it. While they needed to revamp the trait it should have never been with burning. Necro already had the widest access to conditions and the most readily available covers. Torment and supplementary sustain were all that was needed to bring “pre-pax” condi necro into the meta. (they did this with LF gen changes, spectral reworks with armor and wall, adding torment/tainted shackles)

2. No other condition build for any other class (besides engi and this is primarly due to its ability to hybridize by simply putting 30 pts in explosions) puts 30 points into its power tree. Why? Because besides for engi, the power + condition duration tree is 90% associated with power traits. This is to prevent an OP synergy between condition duration and condition traits placed conveniently in the same place (The reason why Anet felt they needed to nerd dhuumfire duration AND remove bleed stacks).

3. A primary reason condition duration ended up in Spite is its balance disruption anywhere else. Soul Reaping and Curses are out of the question as Hemophelia and Master of Terror would be completely out of whack with free additional stacking duration. Blood wouldn’t make sense as it contains all our healing utilities and is best suited for vitality and healing. That leaves Death and Spite. You could make an argument for placing condi duration with death to draw condi builds to take its defensive traits with condi duration as an added bonus; boon duration on Spite would help might stacks but has far less synergy than the multiple boons/traits in Death. Remember even power necros rely on our heavy condi access to survive (blind, weakness, poison, chill, cripple, immob) and the condi duration on spite allows them to have slightly better access to these without directly investing in them. I think the current stat designation for each tree is spot on.

Now these are my justifications for adding a siphon based trait to Spite and why I think it has far more synergy and balance there than any other tree.

1. Soul Reaping and Blood are out of the running from the beginning due to the fact they already have very strong traits in competition with each other and a very set role in building. Currently ALL siphon traits are in blood making it hard to build for it and limiting its variations greatly. To truly build for siphons there needs to be more than one way to use them between utilities/traits as all our current options are subpar.

2. Curses is indisputably the condition trait line. Its GM traits may not be picked up often and may need a change but it should not be with siphons. Siphon dmg scales with power and get the most benefit from channels or rapid attacks (Life transfer, dagger/axe #2, dagger #1 etc.) to gain the most procs. Not to mention the most obvious reason, conditions don’t siphon making this a poor choice.

3.Death is already a defensively aligned tree but is mainly dominated by our Minion Master Brethren. Minions already siphon Health and are currently awaiting a nerf on Vampiric Master meaning Anet already doesn’t want to further promote minion/siphon synergy. Not to mention to add Hungering Death to this tree you would have to chop a perfectly good GM trait only to add sustain to our build with the most sustain…redundant right?

4. Spite already has a high dmg option (CtD), Hungering Death would be a sustain option that offered some dps. It would also create more siphon options by giving incentive to spec into Spite and Blood for synergy. The Adept Signet Mastery would give a CD reduction and might on active of the 2 siphon signets we now have (SoV and Signet of the Locust). Also my re-imagined siphoned power (3x stacks of might for 15 seconds on siphon- 30 sec ICD) along with Signet Mastery would give a new option for might stacking powermancers currently do not have.

Overall I am able to see both sides of the argument, I appreciate those of you who took time to respond. Honestly, I just get a little giddy when I think of all the theorycrafting option these changes might open up.

Thanks for the Feedback!

@Stand the Wall

Removing the ICD for SoV and placing that on Signet mastery would overcrowd that adept trait (20% cd reduction to all sigs, 3 might on active, and ~1-4k increased healing for SoV active). It was mainly placed on Dark Armor so it would give incentive for players for use dagger and axe #2 which rarely see play. In PvP they are easy to dodge and have long channels. In PvE dagger 1# spam is better dps and dagger #2 is best left untouched unless built for support or in dire need of even minor heals. This would give players incentive to set up CC in order to land dagger/axe #2 with the heal active for burst heal + dmg.

As for Healing in DS as soon as i started the math for a response I realized the 100% increase for heals was over the top and altered. Its best that siphons heal normally through DS and are only able to reach high numbers through heavy stat and trait commitment. However I believe it is completely reasonable to allow the siphon dmg to remain at 100% increase in DS so there still is an offensive aspect to the trait.

Currently I believe with Hungering Death + Life Transfer you would be fine benefitting from siphoning multiple targets. Remember base healing for siphons is only 32. With max scaling we only gain 6 additional healing per siphon. With Bloodlust being reverted to 50%, you could only gain ~56 healing per target. So in the ideal scenario when you have 5 targets in range of Life Transfer, fully traited and geared, and you benefit from all 9 ticks your Hp would increase by 2,520 (40 second cd, 30/X/X/15/X trait investment required). As any necro knows the “ideal” is rarely achieved and you are most likely the target of those 5 angry enemies. In a 1v1 or if Life transfer was limited to one target you would receive only 504 healing. Considering its only 2,520 max healing in the best possible scenario and requires over half your traits to attain its a fair trade

@Dalanor

1. The exact reason we need a sustain trait in Spite is so that players can gear zerker and have an option to sacrifice large increases in dmg for supplementary dmg + sustain. Death/Soul Reaping/Blood are already full of defensive options.

2. As for corrupt boon and terror, if you would have read carefully, you would have seen I acknowledged that those were the current states of the skills and the only thing that should change was Stabilities place in removal order. I actually justified why they should stay EXACTLY the same as they are now. They ONLY reason i mentioned them was to show the disparity in what i thought needed to be kept (see the list under “keep”) and the damage changes that needed to be reverted (the list directly above it, “revert”)

3. I have played necro since the first beta and almost exclusively since. My primary experience has been 1000+ hrs in s/tPvP. I have also leveled and played PvE & WvW content on my necromancer in order to gain a sense of balance between the three game types. I was featured on But of Corpse all necro podcast and have worked with/learned from amazing community necros (Bas, Bhawb, Zombify, Kravick, etc.) Nothing special, I just enjoying theorycrafting and discussing necromancer with my community.

4. Your assessment of Corrosive Poison Cloud highlight everything that is wrong with it. Anet has made it clear utilities should be a choice and anything that is clearly out shined needs to be looked at. Currently it has such unskilled weakness application it is a joke.

1. 7 1/2 seconds of transferable weakness on the necro
2. 3 seconds of weakness on pulse (12 second duration)
3. weakness on blast finisher

My changes still allow 10+ seconds of weakness application (not counting all other sources we have) but cut out the redundant application and gives it damage that could give us other options when Dhuumfire is removed. With mine you have

1. the exact same weakness through transfer and blast finisher
2. the exact same poison application
3. potential x9 stack of torment over 12 seconds if utilized to its full effect. This would still keep our access to torment minimal, but give incentive to use a skill no one currently runs while also removing a poor design that has remained unchanged since launch.

5. As for SoV, siphons are difficult to balance and I agree Id love to see if changed completely. However, Anet responds to logical changes that can be executed in increments to protect balance. My suggestions stay within their original design concept, but make it something that actually benefits the necro. My changes would give SoV niche use, build synergy, a way to heal in DS, and depth to its active play.

Remove Dhuumfire

Add Spite XI Hungering Death:
*Siphons can now heal through Deathshroud. While in Deathshroud the damage of siphons is increased by 100%.

Revert Condi nerfs to compensate, swap weakness on corrosive poison field with torment, and you now have a proper necro as opposed to the PAX patch fiasco.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/PvX-Necro-Balance-Changes-PvP-View/first#post3531661

Disclaimer: While it is unfortunate it would take multiple traits to make SoV useful, it is even more sad it is currently underperforming regardless of setup.

The idea behind the trait placement and use of siphons as DS’s singular heal are aimed at keeping us from being unstoppable killing machines once we get rolling. If you initially tried to build around all of these new traits with a 30/0/20/20/0 build you would have the highest siphon capability but also no DS generation without utilities or weapons. Meaning sure, you can heal in DS and potentially gain ~9k healing every 28 seconds but you are sacrificing all of your DS longevity.

One option to build would be a mix of spectral/signet utilities (Signet of vampirism, Spectral Armor, Spectral Walk, Signet of the Locust, Plague Signet), 30/0/20/0/20, Staff + Dagger/Dagger which would give a combination of LF generation, DS uptime, and sustainable healing.

But between the already present spectral and well synergies throughout the trees I believe these siphon buffs would allow us at least a new platform to theory craft from. SoV still may need an addition of an enemy specific 1 second ICD with a 3-5 enemy cap so it gains some scaling under increased pressure.

POWER/HYBRID BUILDS

Overall power builds are not in a bad place at the moment. They have strong traits in several different trees and good mix of damage & sustain provided between Spite and Soul Reaping. While there would be no direct nerf/buff to power & hybrids with these changes it would leave them a few new options to build bruiser/sustain power as opposed to glassy DS shield options currently at our disposal.

Well community I hope you let me know what you think. Just some thoughts and ideas Ive been toying around with for a few months aimed at giving us attrition potential. Good or bad, I enjoy discussion!

BALANCE JUSTIFICATIONS & MAINTAINING BUILD DIVERSITY

CONDITION BUILDS

*The first and most glaring change to diversity would be for condi builds. Without Dhuum they currently would have negligible pressure and I don’t wish them to be left without proper compensation. To remedy this all you need to do is partially revert condi nerfs, for example:

Revert:
-% dmg reduction to terror (remember without Dhuumfire no condi necro will have the +30% duration to fear or other condi’s and the terror/dhuum spike will no longer exist).
-allow putrid mark to remove and transfer 1 condition from each ally in its radius to an enemy when activated (this allows skillful support and extra condi pressure if placed properly)
-Re-add the removed bleeding to Mark of Blood, scepter #2, Enfeebling Blood/Weakening shroud, Mark of Evasion (we will need the extra pressure back with dhuum removed)

Keep:
-Terror as a master trait, it is too strong for the adept tier
-Reduced duration on weakness
-the 5 condition corruption cap on Corrupt Boon in order to keep the game from being spike/hard counter oriented. But to compensate set a global boon removal order with stability in the #5 spot. This would keep things like necro axe #3, focus #5, WoC, Chill of Death, shatters, etc. from automatically removing covered stability but still allow the most powerful Corruption utility to counter it (40 sec CD)

Change:
Corrosive poison cloud:
-applies a 7 1/2 second of self-weakness to the necro as it always has (can be transferred to enemies and barely affects condi necro dmg)
- applies poison as it always has
-no longer applies weakness on pulse. Instead it applies 3x stacks of torment every 4 seconds over a 12 second duration. (max 9 stacks if opponent remains in for entire duration)

This brings condi necro back to essentially the same state it was in pre-dhuumfire but instead gives the community what it asked for. Meaningful use for control conditions (weakness & blind buffs), sustain through DS (buff to Vital persistence, increase LF generation, Spectral reworks), and more damage/control over fights (signet of spite, torment/DS #5, & Spectral wall)

SUSTAIN BUILDS

Now for keeping sustain builds balanced. Anet has made it clear they are very nervous about necro siphoning becoming OP and thus will not allow them to scale well with stats. I believe the solution to that is these strategically placed powerful siphoning/DS sustain traits that allow necros to build for attrition, but also forces them to choose carefully.

-New options:
*through various trait combinations, these changes would allow some degree of healing in DS for Signet of Vampirism (XI Hungering Death), Blood Fiend (XI Hungering Death & VII Vampiric Master), and Well of Blood (XI Hungering Death & XII Vampiric Rituals) which would give a niche benefit to 3 skills currently subpar to CC.

*With modification to Dark Armor siphon/tank necro could use axe or dagger #2 to remove ~9-13 stacks of SoV in 5 seconds. That is a base heal of 4,027 with the addition of ~2,700-3,900 healing from stacks. It also gains a 3 part risk/reward function

1. using the active removes possible passive healing in DS (about ~325 per hit with hungering death)
2. If someone blocks/blinds your active you will recieve the base heal (4,027) but deal no damage and gain no healing from stacks.
3. Even if you land the active stacks and damage, you must then land at least 1 full channel to get the absolute most out of the heal (~7-8k). This allows a wide range of counterplay and depth to a currently useless skill.

I posted this on the necro forum but after realizing we had this new subforum it seemed appropriate here. These are just a few suggestions aimed at creating build options for siphons, avoiding a potential DS power creep and resulting nerf, and working toward the original necro theme of attrition.

These suggestions aim to give multiple trees new access to sustain and possible synergies.

SPITE

-Remove dhuumfire
-Add:
XI Hungering Death:
1. Allows siphons to regenerate the Necromancers HP while in Deathshroud. The damage portion of the siphon is increased by 100% while in Deathshroud.

-Change the function GM minor trait siphoned power
Siphoned Power: When you siphon HP from an enemy you gain 3x stacks of might for 15 seconds (30 second ICD). This could be triggered by Signet of Vampirism, Signet of the Locust, Vampiric Master/Rituals/Precision, Vampiric, etc. giving you a multitude of opportunities to proc it.

DEATH MAGIC

-Bring Greater Marks back down to the adept tree. Staff is still a good weapon, but never required that nerf. I think it has proper trait competition in the adept tier and with the staff #2/#4 nerfs it is far from dangerous.
-Move Dark Armor to the Master tier and change it to:
I Dark Armor: In addition to 400 additional toughness while channeling, channeled skills now also ignore the ICD on Signet of Vampirism’s active.

BLOOD MAGIC

-Move Deathly Invigoration to the adept tier. It has always been a lackluster trait and is never (or extremely rarely) picked with its current competition.
-Revert Bloodthirst to increase siphoning by 50% once again and move it to the Master tier. With how little scaling we were given it did not deserve the nerf it received.

SKILL REWORK

Overall I believe the implemented Signet of Vampirism is a fail, this is how I would rework it to actually provide sustain through siphoning and promote risk/reward play style

1. Like in the datamined version, Signet of Vampirism’s PASSIVE effect once again becomes a siphon-on-hit and can benefit from Hungering Death/Bloodthirst/ect.
2. The ACTIVE of Signet of vampirism no longer functions as a siphon and no longer scales with Hungering Death/Bloodthirst/ect.
3. Signet of Vampirism:
– On activation heals for 4027 & deals 1,500 base damage (scales very well with power) and marks an enemy (25 stacks-scales with necro healing)
-Necros/Allies are healed per stack removed with a 1 second ICD (excluding axe/dagger #2 if traited). 419 is the current heal per removal which is too high considering my suggestion to make the passive a siphon and revert bloodlust. it should be set somewhere around ~250-350 to remain balanced.

*with changes to dark armor necro would have the potential to remove 9-13 stacks in 5 seconds, ~3,900 healing if not missed/interupted/dodged/blocked/etc. this would be along with ~4,000 base heal giving a lot of healing potential but a huge risk/reward as there are several counters.

Remove Dhuumfire and replace it with this:

XI Hungering Death:
Siphons now have the ability to heal the necromancer while in Deathshroud. While In Deathshroud the damage of siphons is increased by 100%.

*Condition builds will need compensation for all the heavy handed nerfs rained down due to Dhuumfire

Clearly the way siphons function now they are next to useless and can be outhealed by consumables. This would be a way to give power and hybrid builds a sustain option (Why a condi trait currently is in Spite is beyond me) and a way to link a currently subpar sustain mechanic with our class “attrition” mechanic. Most DS attacks are slow and only Life Transfer or a few heavily trait dependent setups would have the opportunity to benefit from multiple ticks meaning the healing and dmg would be supplementary but not OP. Also for it to become a siphon tank you would need to heavily invest in some combo of death/blood/soul reaping meaning its optimal sustain comes at the cost of damage.

This is my entire post on it:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/PvX-Necro-Balance-Changes-PvP-View/first#post3531661

I’ve played hybrid builds similar to this and I can attest with things like Target the Weak, terror, and our spite/curses tree there is very nice synergy. Unfortunately they are most effective as niche 1v1 or 1vX builds as opposed to team fighters because to pull all the traits together you often end up sacrificing sustain.

But besides warrior, I think necro has the most hybridization potential. Personally I believe siphoning would be the best way to give hybrids the sustain they currently lack, but seeing as we went from some to no condi build diversity I doubt Anet has a plan to bring them into the “meta”.

Thanks for sharing the build, ill have to try it

Yeah I used it the first night back from my break and rose from roughly 20% from decay to 193 on the solo Q boards in a few hours. Of course my rating is pretty volatile since the reset so I’m still jumping all over the place.

One thing I wanted to add about the build, once you get really good at timing out both spectral armors you can actually use the recently buffed Spectral Reaping II Vital Persistance. You normally decay for 730~ without vital Persistance which gives you about 25 seconds in DS. This build has 18,494 LF at max so with that trait you can spend just under a minute in DS which is significant dmg while not focused (lots of life blast).

30/20/0/0/20 with staff + dagger/dagger and carrion/rabid is condi necro in PvP. I prefer carrion for the extra vitality and LF and losing crit doesn’t hurt (dhuumfire has 100% proc rate on crit and barbed precision bleeds have barely a duration.

Currently bout 50% of solo Q necro go minion for the long cc chain and self sufficient nature. 20/0/30/20/0 or 20/0/20/30/0 and I believe most go power based though I have seen a working condi version.

The majority of necros shy away from power but personally it is our best choice IMO. Higher learning curve but 30/25/0/015 with barbarian w/ zerker jewel staff + dagger/dagger has mean bunker breaker & AoE pressure potential. If you have any other Qs feel free to PM me.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/The-PvP-Power-attrition-Necro/first#post3384252

There is the only power build I believe is viable. Unlike the MM builds it isn’t as self sufficient. Not to say MM is cheese, but this definitely has a steeper learning curve than either of those builds or the only condi build (30/20/0/0/20).

It is better suited to a team environment but isn’t a build that must be “built around”. There have and probably will always be people who don’t believe power necro is viable but I can guarantee you it is when played correctly. This is one of the few builds actually buffed by spectral changes while dodging all other nerfs. With reduction of well CDs, addition of tainted shackles, and stackable immobilizes the burst with this build is much more reliable than it was even when its variance was used in launch competitive play (30/30/10/0/0)

Thank you? lol /15

I have been away from the game and the community for a while, but I wasn’t at all surprised that when Anet began shifting the balance away from condition game play necro took some hits. While I don’t think we got proper compensation in survivability and lord knows they neutered any build diversity in the condition play, I scraped together a pretty impressive power build with the other tools they gave us.

The attrition comes from LF generation on dagger/staff #1, reapers precision, and x2 spectral armors (2 of those sources we can access even while in DS). You also do more damage the longer you are in the fight through proper positioning (Rune of Thief), stacking conditions (Target the Weak), and by bringing the enemy below 50% HP (Close to Death). Granted its no where near the best attrition in the game or what we have asked for but you’d be surprised how well LF stacks with this build and how much use you can put it to.

Build: 30/25/0/0/15
Spite: V, X, XII
Curses: V, VI
Soul Reaping: IV

Barbarian Amulet w/ Berserkers Jewel: This is the reason this build feels like a bruiser and allows you to take hits while still dishing out steady dmg. While it is true with Berserker you would have more straight power and more crit dmg, you become immensely more vulnerable to burst and less self sufficient by cutting down your HP/LF pools.

Staff + Dagger/Dagger

Consume Conditions, Well of Suffering, Well of Corruption, Spectral Armor

This build actually is very flexible on elites, its a personal preference
~Flesh Golem gives you more cc and a regular cripple. It can be very nice for rez denial or setting up burst.
~In a team setting Lich Burst can allow you to mow down targets quickly. I use this least often simply because it has a thoughtless spam play and is vulnerable without team coordination
~I use plague most often for the guaranteed stomp. It is also nice as a secondary mitigation tool if you are out of DS and hard focussed. In solo Q its nice to be able to at least stall a decap at a base if you are not able to win the fight (We all know escape isn’t an option)

Runes: (personal choice) I chose runes of the thief because you gain a slight dmg increase with the crit and a small survival boost due to reapers precision, other power/crit rune sets will work. The extra 10% dmg also comes into play randomly more often than you would expect in team fights. Once you get used to the build it is easier to purposefully position yourself for the extra dmg.

Sigils: Staff (Sigil of Sup. Fire) + MH dagger (Sigil of Sup. Air/Fire) OH dagger (Sigil of Sup. Bloodlust)

Pros:
~Heavy AoE pressure
~No one expects a power necro
~Massive amounts of LF generation + DS uptime when played correctly
~26K Health and 18K in DS (not considering natural decay) which gives you a lot of staying power even when focussed by timing both active and passive Spectral Armor
~access to control condi’s like fear/chill/weakness without being dependent on all condi’s landing
~better than average condi removal for a power build with dagger/staff #4 + CC
~Same or better rez denial than the old 30/30/10/0/0 power teamfight necro
~Amazing % dmg bonuses make up for lower base power than other heavy power builds. (2% per condi, 20% while enemy is bellow 50%, and 10% from behind or beside)
~Has nice synergy with condi builds due to extra dmg from target the weak and ample access to cover conditions

Cons:
~Moderate learning curve vs other burst classes (especially if you use Berserk- not recommended)
~Weaker in 1v1s with other necros (not useless against, just vulnerable)
~Like most necros, this build lacks any mobility without team support
~Lack of Stability, only mildly mitigated if you choose to access plague stomps/face tanking

Personally I have a lot of fun with this build and think it has carry potential in solo Q while still being desirable with an organized team. It isn’t your average necro but thought I’d post a build for others to try like the old days, I dont feel like there is much info flow anymore. Anyway for any of those who try it, enjoy.

It was already mentioned, but epidemic is by far the easiest way to kill a ranger. Nearly every ranger runs empathetic bond (pulls 3 condi from ranger to pet every 10 sec) and this is sometime their only condi removal. Like a previous post said I like to play aggressive and “in your face” to start off because you stack double the condi on the ranger and pet. Things like sigil of geomancy, marks, weakening shroud, and tainted shackles will hit them both and then after 10 seconds they will be consolidated onto the pet (and if performed correctly) leaving you to epidemic the doubled amount back to the ranger killing them both.

Now some smart rangers will see this coming and pet swap. Thankfully, when slotted right a necro can have at least decent sustain and can easily just reapply this combo killing the ranger before he has an additional swap, by no means will it be a “quick” fight if the ranger is built tanky.

Lack of active condition removal on ranger and well timed transfers allow necro to have a better than average chance at killing rangers.

Haha can’t really expect a different response from a minion master. Personally, I don’t think we need LF at the start at all. I never feel kitten if I forget the trick. Its not like we have a reliable berserker builds, and those are the only that really suffer from higher burst before LF. I’ve always found myself resilient enough as a condi or minion to survive until I start generating LF.

EDIT: and as for game design, I can think of some fairly glaring faults cough Dhuumfire cough that take precedent over the minion sacrifice. If you think about it, its alot more in line with lore as well

Mesmer and Necro work extremely well together. Mesmer is IMO, the most efficient at helping the necro cope with its inherent weakness. With mass invis, portal, and focus 4 you have more swiftness, the awesome disengage, and more non-condi based control that necros sorely need. In WvW for roaming necro I always play condi, so a power/crit mesmer makes for an awesome ally.

It also amplifies its strengths as mesmer/necro are the best boon strip combo save necro + S/D. If the mesmer runs staff, between the two of you there is the potential to place every single condi on the target making iWarlock beastly and making scepter #3s LF slightly less terrible. If you prefer power, in a 30/25/0/015, you gain even more percent direct dmg for condi making dagger spam under 50% extremely deadly. Not to mention TimeWarp Lich is still the best thing ever. Not to mention war horn daze + Flesh Golem + Curtain pull + AoE shatter daze + GS knock back when timed correctly can completely lock down targets as well as give numerous ways to interrupt stomps and rez.

Personally I don’t think there is any better damage roaming partner for necro than mesmer. Engi makes a good second, but I think ele/guard are just generically good roaming partners for about any profession.

We already have LF at the start of the match. You can easily get 10-30% by summoning/switching out minions for other utilities right before the gate opens. This has been in-game for a while and it seems unlikely with the rate of change that this will be removed quickly (it may even be intentional?).

With my knights 30/25/0/0/15 and spectral armor I have nearly OP LF regen for short periods despite having good burst/respectable sustain dmg. As for condi builds, they are doing themselves a disservice if they haven’t started running at least 20 in SR as it gives decent start up and good sustain LF. If they choose to use higher dmg traits AND not to minion swap pre-match they can learn to live without LF at the start.

Power damage doesn’t need a boost for necros overall. The change to DS #1, tainted shackles, lower cd to wells, and LF regen has put power in a very good spot overall. Its all I play anymore. And there is no balancing it, only removing it.

PvP is a whole different game my friend. Despite the fact that Anet has done their best to keep skills and the like the same, it is a very different world when it comes to builds and stats. I learned that the first time I stepped into WvW/Fractals. All the gear/builds/playstyle/and positioning are unique to each of these three game types and it makes crossing over difficult.

Do some research. Since you can play every profession I suggest to consider the roll in which might enjoy upon entering a map. Bunker, Homepoint, Roamer, etc have their distinct place with certain professions being more efficient than others at different jobs on the team. With a limited number of amulets, the goal is to promote balance by limiting the number of builds to a reasonable amount without completely discouraging diversity between builds/professions.

The recent EU and NA tourneys are at least a decent representation of the current “meta” giving you a look at which roll/profession you might enjoy. While it is perfectly ok to experiment with different or unique builds it is usually beneficial to at least find a video/post from an experienced player so you can find whether its playstyle suits you and then tweak it as you see fit.

Also, HJ are not a good way to learn and can be very discouraging especially in 8v8 and larger. While not perfect, SoloQ is now a way to be able to see the tournament setting with several different maps and its an early opportunity (when you get lucky) to begin coordinating with a team/meeting other players.

Since you are new, I suggest you try to ignore all the negativity towards SoloQ for the moment. As with all online games, sometimes people tend to overreact so keep that in mind. In reality they have the same problems as our old Q, they are just in a new format and a new name(Old Q had leavers and afks/premades [sync in soloQ] vs pugs/highly volatile leader boards/matchmaking orienting and placing players) They are the best way to learn the game and can be a blast when you are against an evenly matched team.

Finally, try out duel servers to face classes that are difficult for you to counter and watch tutorials/podcasts covering those professions. You can even just have it as background noise during the game, SOAC has a great collection and most classes clearly state all their weaknesses and discuss counters. Knowledge is huge, but you can also try out the builds you are weakest against and it can help you when facing them.

Other than that just practice. PvP is a lot of fun even in its current state, especially if you aren’t looking to spend a majority of you time there. I’d suggest joing either Academy of the Mists or GW2 Esports guild (I believe both welcome anyone who wants to join), they are some awesome and very helpful players that could eventually be teammates or just friends for coop team Q.

Hope this helps.

Which profession do you play?

in my first post I forget to mention the other dmg condi they have access to. Confusion is definitely not something most condi warriors build for but it sure is fun but takes timing and skill to get any use out of. It will only proc when they interrupt a cast (4 stacks per interrupt) and most people are very aware of the warrior stuns/daze animations. I personally really get a kick out of LB + mace/sword but it is even less viable than the build I believe OP is referring to.

I completely disagree. I main necro (switched to power as currently our condi is the definition of cheese/faceroll) but I play condi warrior on a regular basis. The only bleed with a substantial uptime is the 6 stacks from the LB 5#. Besides that, the bleed burst from sword adren has a very short duration and can easily be avoided. They have 2 options for aoe burning on LB adren and LB#2 but even with that they have far less access to burning than engi, ranger, or pre-dhuum nerf necro. They have no access to poison and the best cover they have is sword #4 torment which gains stacks slowly compared to alot of condi application classes. 1v1 healing signet is good, but it is definitely not something that will help warriors sustain to the level they need in a team environment.

To play them successfully it takes timing and an opponent who has no idea of their weakness or skill as many of their abilities are highly telegraphed. Also to maximize the LB dmg Carrion amulet is the best as LB scales decently with power leaving many of them without much toughness. They can run condi amulets for their main stats but since their application is lacking overall/telegraphed/doesn’t always have a decent duration its best to (imho) to slightly hybridize to maximize damage.

Some warriors are becoming more viable and less risky for teams to (edit: for —→ to) run but most of them are not condi based, even LB/BS warriors generally run zerker which has no toughness or condi dmg. Condi for them is still not in a place where it can even compete with the top 3 condi classes (engi/ranger/necro) in survival or pressure. If you would like a further explanation on how this type of warrior works feel free to message me in-game.

But no, condi warriors do not need to be toned down. In fact, they still have a bit of work before they can/will be “meta” viable and are still far from undefeatable in HJ/sPvP. Hope this helps a little on the understanding side.

No, this still is a team only game. Solo Q is simply a way for players without a team to get matched with others in a similar situation in team conquest. There is no true way, currently, to succeed without team coordination as most classes can only carry so far and only against new/inexperienced players (barely).

EDIT: That being said I still think dueling is a fun and casual way to ease players into fighting and new builds even if they are meant for a team setting, all the while letting experienced players prove their stuff. Like the above post said, even if 1v1 isn’t you thing, I don’t see any reason it shouldn’t have already been implemented. Lack of certain features really makes me wish GW2 had launched PvE as it was, with tPvP being released as “Beta”.

I think with the hotfix to burning devs might finally be seeing the core issue that put necro from subpar to 0 skill face roll. With that said, I feel it is very unlikely that we keep a GM trait that is 50% less effective than adept that many have asked to be removed. So I might be overly optimistic but I see some reverts in our future then hopefully they begin bringing up underused trait lines like they have mentioned before.

That being said, everyone is playing condi necro, but seem to have missed the part where power necros are actually in a good spot when played right. Right now I am playing a sustain LF bruiser that can bunker break just as well as any of the old 30/30/10 power builds. Right now I actually think condi is our subpar option for necro

Hey guys, recently I have tried several times to adapt my condi necro build to something that would fit my preferred play style. Unfortunately, I didn’t like my options and decided to try and adapt. My solution was power, here is a build I have been testing and running. I highly suggest trying it if you are tired of the current “FOTM/cookie cutter” condi necro.

30/25/0/0/15

Spite Spirit, Chill of Death, Close to Death

Reaper’s Precision, Focused Rituals

Spectral Mastery

Staff – Dagger/Dagger

Consume Conditions, Well of Suffering, Well of Corruption, Spectral Armor (alt: Spectral Walk), Plague form – mainly for stomps/burst mitigation (alt: Flesh Golem)

Sigil of Fire on Staff and MH dagger (alt: Sigil of Superior Force), Sigil of minor Bloodlust on OH dagger

Runes of the Thief (6/6)

Bruiser: Knights Amulet w/ Berserker Jewel (<——- This is what I run)

Glass Cannon: Berserker Amulet & Jewel

JinDaVikk.7291:

Since I don’t feel like reading 6 pages and people still mention the 30/30/10 build I thought I’d say not every necro uses that now.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=;044Z;1kHkH0p3ZJkJ0;9;4TJ;0J29A38;538-KNH4;2hoHAhoHA2Vm

There are things that can be changed from double fear duration to marks give life force and a few minor changes (utilities)

Don’t assume only 30/30/10 is used.

you are late to the show. Why go 30/30/10 with the bigger marks? Everyone already uses 30/20/0/0/20

Chill wouldn’t be bad as power necros already have a hell of a time reliably locking down a target. I just don’t get how developers who listen to a community add a trait that we ask them not to, explain exactly why it is over the top, and then when they do decide something needs to be hit it is our sustain mechanic….

oh Karl :/

I feel like (for the most part) those who main necro want dhuumfire gone (because they know what we are capable of without it) and those who mainly fight necros want DS brought down (theyve faced burst before, but don’t realize how situational/squishy DS really is).

The supposed nerfs aimed at bringing necro in line for PvP, however, have started conflicts in balance between PvP/PvE players.

And then there are those that think condi necro should be a quasi-melee class…

Hopefully Arenanet has a better sense of what they want done with the necro than the community does because if not…I don’t even want to imagine it.

We never needed extra damage, we had a strong control/teamfight niche with (even if it was limited) some diversity. Now the undisputedly apex build is 30/20/0/0/20, for me simply the effect on class diversity, and the communities sanity is enough evidence that burning was a bad idea. It literally has no counterplay. Coming from a previously “UP” necro I’d rather return to that time when we could play well and get good results in return. Anyone who tries to argue that a skilless RNG ability is a good direction for this game can forget competitive play.

Yes the engi has it, but it doesn’t have any of our access to control or boonstripping. Also, it is only supplementary to the burning they have interesting ways to use. Too much is too much, the recent changes to DS, LF, weakness, blind (sorta? people act like we have so many applications of this when in reality we have a single weapon/utility/elite), and torment were plenty. Honestly if anyone should have had this much added at once it should have been warrior or any of the countless other unplayed condi classes (thief/mesmer/guard/ele/etc.)

You do not benefit from any healing while in DS. Also with shaman you lose the crit that allows these low skill necros to benefit from the RNG burn. What you are suggesting has no basis in the meta or reality. Necro are broken, their range is not. It was not problem before dumbfire and it wouldn’t be an issue if it was removed.

hackks.3687:

Serdoc.7261:

If you read some of the threads on the Necromancer forums, a lot of necromancers feel that dhuumfire was a mistake, as necros should not get burning as it is out pf place.

If you look through a lot of threads or even posts on this thread, changing dhuumfire seems o be a popular idea as well.

IMO, make dhuumfire give Torment instead of burning, aka change to this ->100% chance to inflict 2 stacks of torment for 3 seconds on critical hits. This effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds.

Also, please be careful about changing things for the sake of tPvP without looking into the effects it will have on PvE (I think you already do this, but just in case), as nerfing Necromancers in the wrong way could effectively wipe them out in the PvE arena. Which IMO re-enforces the whole ‘just nerf dhuumfire’ solution, as it will not have too harsh an affect on PvE.

Not for nothing, but those same Necros can’t tell you or anybody else why exactly Dhuumfire is so strong or over the top. All they know is that all the QQ started at the same time that Dhuumfire was added. And to be honest it’s 4 sec of burning on a single target every 10 sec. At it’s best it goes up to 6 sec of burning, and still only on a single target. I can’t emphasize enough how little benefit this is in a team fight situation, other than getting a lucky proc on a Doom snipe when focusing down a called target.

Any half decent necro can tell you exactly why it is OP. It is in a tree with condi duration and it takes 0 skill to use. With epi, no single target condi application exists for necro. With the addition of new weakness and torment, there are more cover condi’s than there are removals to counter it vs a single class (fear, weakness, torment, poison, chill, cripple) . Necro has the best and fastest bleed stacking (I know some will argue, but we can sustain stacks higher than 10 bleeds with a good rotation and knowledge of how to cover them) and along with the strongest base dmg condition our very unique-situational terror/corrupts/transfers we fill the role of every single condi class. Dhuumfire takes no skill and it needs to go. Furthermore it limits profession diversity and is the first step to boring homogenized professions. Unhealthy for the game, PvP and PvE as we see all these PvE necros very hurt by the lack of low LF soak nerf that was triggered by the over the top (literal) condi SPAM. /answered

Defektive.7283:

Krilce.7864:

Defektive.7283:

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Will provide video proof from Warrior perspective.

Video 1: http://www.twitch.tv/defektive/c/2634208 vs. Gibbly in tPvP.

Video 2: http://www.twitch.tv/defektive/c/2634245 vs. Bruja in tPvP (A wild Bruja has appeared).

Can you try to record a footage vs a necro post patch?

Will try tonight, it’s generally the same unless they go heavily into defensive utilities.

Necro HP and longetivity is OK, it’s not amazing, but its not bad.

I don’t see a reason not to start them with like 20% life force in the beginning of a match and give them a small buffer. But they don’t need much else.

I don’t think 20% LF with the removal of burning would be terrible at the start of the match. The problem with that is is neglects the philosophy that LF is something that needs to be managed and it essentially becomes a band-aid fix. We need OVERALL better LF regen, adding a larger amount to things that already gave us LF wasn’t the best approach IMO. Thats why I think things like OH dagger should have it, because it needs to be tied to defensive and mitigation style abilities. Too much of it can be a very bad thing for the games health (some of us do remember LF leeches from beta). With spectral they do a decent job, it has the utility of boons + stun break and to add attrition it gains LF. Makes perfect and logical sense. If they added it to dagger 4, it transfers condi, blinds, and if they added 2% per target hit it would add attrition. Putting it on the final auto of dagger never made much sense as, without LF, going into melee range with a dagger is a bad idea. Why not give 2% LF per tick of life siphon as right now it has 0 use in sPvP and bring down the amount we get on dagger auto attack. Focus #4 was also, IMO, a good way to gain LF. But just giving it to us passively at the start of the match seems too easy and things like Dhuumfire have already dropped the skill floor enough.

EDIT: Axe #2 is another example of alot of LF gen in a bad place, even though they constantly give it more no one uses it. You never see axe in tPvP because the sole dmg you get is from a long channel that can be dodged…and when dodged you lose any LF you would have gained from that ability. Too easy to counter as one dodge cuts your sustain and dmg by more than half. It would be better placed as a certain % of LF per person hit by #3 on axe. It cripples enemies, it gives you retal, and with LF it would have attrition potential. I like the boon rip, but it gives it a split purpose and clarity of purpose is something Anet stands behind. suggestion?

axe #3: gives retal, % LF per person hit, and cripples all targets in radius
axe #2: change it to either ground target or PB-AOE direct dmg attack that will rip a boon (similar to mesmer GS #3)
axe #1: change it to something similar to ele air scepter auto attack channel, move the previous axe #2 channel to #1 and have it stack vuln on each attack.

just my humble opinion, but I think LF (necro door to attrition) should be rewarded for strategic defensive play

In that case please don’t change anything. I think some things released 2 patches ago could have really used further testing, I really was a fan of slow and steady approach. Go into the qualifiers with what we have then take a serious look afterwards, there is no small or simple change that will balance this between three games modes.

Power is still not exactly where it needs to be. To get the damage you would want as a necro power build you have to slot all offensive utilities. I think spite desperately needs a good sustain option as Close to Death will trump about anything other than another OP GM trait. Either something that allows a necro to lock down a target for wells/dagger damage, or retain some more sustainability in a fight until their burst comes up. Any one trait (dhuumfire) that encourages wasting trait points just because it will automate all your damage for you needs to go. Ive got hate for it before, but I think moving the chance on crit for weakness to spite would be a very healthy change as no one needs it for condi builds (dagger #5, weakening shroud, combo fields) as long as they added 5% LF gain when critically hit with an ICD of about 20 seconds to it.

^ always thought thief should get OH torch and burning on short bow

Zenith.7301:

Yeah, it was sooooo much fun being a free kill to dd eles because my conditions were getting cleansed 24/7 before I got cover conditions!

I refer you to this https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.twitch.tv%2Fsymbollix%2Fc%2F2622702

Also, with access to torment on staff and scepter along with the sustain they are giving us you will actually be harder to kill and have less issue getting bleeding to stick. Burning isn’t a good “cover condition” because you don’t have any idea or control over when it is going to proc. Often it will proc before your bleeds giving you 0 cover as the last condi applied is the first removed

EDIT: Fear, Chillblains, Tainted Shackles are all good examples of skillful ways to cover bleeds

close to death already only works on direct damage.

I have said this on many threads and feel it needs to be said again. The addition of dhuumfire has completely borked the condimancer and tPvP along with it. Before a necro had good condi pressure and had to coordinate with other classes to stack bleeds/burns/poisons for a good epi that could cause chaos and mayhem. At that point we were rare in the meta, and a good necromancer was recognized as something that took skill and coordination. But with the buffs to weakness, the addition of terror and torment, the necromancer would have been put in a very strong place without burning. Like I’ve said before, burning on a necromancer basically is a statement that to be “viable” or meta worthy your condi pressure must have burning. It pushes engis and rangers out of the meta and the builds take 0 skill or timing to play. the larger marks and nerf to terror have now made the burning condi build the only meta necromancer who can stand his ground and that is incredibly upsetting seeing as we are losing unique flair for a trait copied from engi’s. Dhuumfire hasn’t (in tPvP) become a tool for hybrid builds or increased diversity, in essence balancing around it has actually limited diversity by a wide margin. The ability to put 20 into SR while still keeping the 30/20/ was actually a very substantial buff to their sustain and the small terror nerf essentially does nothing to bring them inline. If we removed Dhuumfire, kept our other changes and were allowed small and strategic ways to apply torment to a weapon set or two we would be a lot better off.

Few Suggestions:

Remove Dhuumfire

Keep corrupt at 5 boons converted, but change all condi conversion skills to work the same (only converts 5 condi’s into boons to keep things in-line, similar to the 1 sec ICD from spectral skills)

Add to scepter three: apply 1 stack of torment per condition on the target (as well the LF already gained)

Dagger #4 Deathly Swarm: add a 2% LF gain per target hit with the transfer

Change the Blast finisher on poison fields to inflict 2-3 stacks of torment instead of weakness (this change would also have potential to give condi thieves a little more dmg as well as bring down our weakness application which I know Jon is worried about)

Keep all changes from the last patch save the 17% terror nerf, this would bring condi builds up to their previous point with a small dmg buff but a large amount more sustain which is what the community originally wanted.

I know several of you have become very attached to burning, but you cannot discount the strengths of our control condi’s which have always been our unique strength. Burning (for me at least) feels like a step in the direction of homogenizing the professions which have driven me away from countless other games. With the changes to DS and LF regen, weakness in its new form, lower CDs on certain utilities, we are getting most of what we needed to stay in the fight (there a few things that would still be nice). The GC damage is too much and is not how condi is intended, that is for power builds. Also, as a necro we have two many “cover conditions” (poison, chill, weakness, torment, cripple, blind, essentially fear) to have burning and bleeding, the two highest dmg conditions in game.

EDIT: smart necros already had access to burning pre-dhuumfire through transfers, corrupts, and epi (our condition duration and dmg is used for all of those skills). It was skillful, unique, and made us feel like condi masters without an easy chance on proc no-thought-needed trait. Either we lose dhuumfire or more unique cool aspects of the profession will have to be shaved down and “brought in line”.

^ not referring to any of the things added this last patch. And it isnt about the cost of trait allocation, it is the loss of a skill cap because a new poorly implemented RNG trait took necros from “non-viable” to the top condi pressure. It’s the fact that it limits team and class diversity. Also, if we do want to mention changes from this patch, bringing terror down essentially makes any condi necro who doesnt run burning even LESS effective than they were before we got majorly buffed. Balance isn’t the only thing that effects a games health. Build diversity used to be a necro strength and now it is a crutch for less skilled players

Jon, we appreciate transparency but certain things don’t line up with your “purity of purpose”. Escapes weren’t the move needed to make necros superior to engi, you did that with burning and essentially solidified the idea that to be viable a condi class you need burning (pre-patch necro was the only one who stood thier ground without it). We didn’t need it, we didn’t want it, and it is the sole reason we have become the monsters we have. The balance you have done to keep that trait in has greatly lowered the necro skill cap and the diversity we used to bring (corrupts/transfers/DS/terror all took hits so your could give us a condi that doesnt fit). Where is the purity of role or purpose there?

edit: spelling

Just so I’m not just trashing other ideas here are my quick fix trait changes.

Remove dhuumfire

Move weakness on crit to spite GM and add a 5% LF gain when critically struck with a 20 second ICD

Replace the above trait in curses with “Tormented Steps”: 33% chance to gain 1 stack of torment for 10 seconds on application of bleeds (5 second ICD).

Set a profession wide priority for boon strip with stability in the fifth slot. Silly that S/D thieves will always rip stab first but some well timed necro corrupts will fail to stop stability stomps.

These changes would give power a trait for a sustain option, keep terror viable and remove the build that made its use appear OP, give necro a steady source of a cover condi for a GM trait, and heal the over saturation of condi in the meta and promote comp diversity.

Unfortunately ostrich these changes would nerf the entire class and pigeon hole everyone into the current mindless condi spam FOTM. I can see that you put time and thought in, but there are a few intricacies of necro that would be hurt extremely badly by these suggestions.

1: necro DOES not need burning, our forte before this trait was condi control through transfers, boon hate, and application. Now we condi spam. Overall giving the class with the most access to condi the strongest one of all was a poor choice. It forces other classes like engi and ranger out the condi meta and discourages diversity. And your example of thief vs necro proves the point on burning, landing one RNG proc allows a previously competitive back and forth fight to become a cake walk for the necro and requires 0 skill. Bleed stacking, positioning, condi covering, and clutch fears to peel thieves burst was our option before. Burning should go as before patch no one feared terror and it could actually allow a necro to plan a well timed terror burst to finish off a target, not RNG spam to win. If you remember pre-terror necros only source of pressure damage came through bleed stacks, if you nerf terror dhuum fire becomes mandatory. Burning kills meta diversity and necro build diversity and as everyone has noticed, is over the top.

2: DS is our defense, not the primary source of offense as OP suggests. Does it now have access to some condi dmg? Yes, which is awesome it sorely lacked it. And you overstate how easy it is to generate compared to other class mechanics (clone spam, guardian virtues, ranger pets, tool belt, steal, attune swap are all 100% rdy start of fight unlike DS). Your proposition keeps our unasked for dmg buffs and then hard nerfs our control and sustain, two things without which we would once again be meta trash. DS has our reposition (dark path), best single target self peel (doom), new cover condi (shackles), and the only way for power builds to manage sustained dmg without completely abandoning positioning (life blast). Only when played well does it allow for a “good” source of damage, you’d be surprised how poorly so many necros utilize it and removing it on death would hike up the alrdy (pre-patch) high learning curve and kill low LF generating builds only survive. This change would force running a stun break where before good necros could utilize DS and take all damage utilities.

I think it is awesome that the community has cooled off and is pushing for a better necro. OP does not contain the answers we need, and hopefully Anet treads carefully as opposed to their “run for hills” mentality with necro nerfs that put us so behind from beta to launch. I don’t think the majority of the community paid enough attention to necro pre patch to have any clue what should or shouldn’t be done to necro, hopefully Anet did. #believeinkarl

Its actually far more likely to hear people say you cannot be viable with minions, than to say you need them to work. Power and condi builds along with hybrids can all be built and played without slotting a single minion utility.

^ Already stated in this thread

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Berserker_Stance

Specified as “unmodified” condis, meaning the old necro 0/20/10/10/30 with foot in the grave and terror will put out fears that hit through the stance as well as have decent access to stability.

I don’t know if you run epi but it is the single handed best way to kill most rangers as condi. Empathetic bond will continue peeling all condis from the ranger and since most attacks are AoE, good initiations can put your marks on top of the ranger and his pet. Find a good opportunity and epi the pet and he will most likely die. Some rangers are smart enough to counter with a pet swap but that only works once and if you are good with your positioning you will win that attrition fight. I don’t WvW often but when I do its in a group from 2-5 and I wreck with condi builds and find them more effective damage especially since so many people run zerker. Good bunker guards can be very long fights, if its 1v1 you can kill them I just question if its worth the time solo. Warriors have the most CC and as such are going to be the most dangerous to us when they re-join the meta. I’d put 30 into SR for foot in the grave with a standard condi build and you should have a counter to all three.

Even if it doesn’t function like that it says nothing about stripping all existing condis from the warrior meaning that if he does blow a couple of cleanses before popping it, all it will take is kiting/DS face tanking until he is ready to be condi burst into the ground. Good warriors will use it well, others will still be useless. I don’t think it’s rock paper scissors at all, there is nothing in this change that shows the long UP warrior will now suddenly “win” if he has this slotted against condi, he simply has means of counterplay now. I believe it was much more rock paper scissors before with warrior when all three would kill him before the enemy team even had a chance.

it rejects 100% of condi base duration. If you have additional duration (30/30/10 necro for example) your conditions will still land, they will just have severely shortened durations for 8 seconds. It is honestly a good idea IMHO, good possibilities for counter play and possibly even counter-builds if warriors are as deadly to necros as OP thinks they might be.

Spectral wall is a utility slot with a 45 second CD that does not benefit from the reduced CD or fear 50% additional duration in the “30/30/10/0/0” build that everyone claims is rocking their world. It takes a Master level trait to gain damage and an additional GM trait slot to last any longer than 5 seconds. With no stunbreak used competitively that doesn’t have a base 60 second CD I think you can manage a necro who only has 5 seconds of “defense”. Honestly if It didn’t present a threat to you there would be no point in lining up half of your build to use it, seems no different to me than any other situationally strong skill that can potentially take up 2-4 trait slots.

Burning only works in the power tree due to its high base damage. Adding an already existing trait into spite from another class feels like a soggy bandaid. We need a sustain option that is viable as currently Foot in the Grave is the only viable high end PvP ‘defensive’ option in a GM spot. Why ppl suggest torment in spite is beyond me as it will tick for 36 without a condi build and will add no strategic play for the necromancers. At this point I think it would be nice to have a trait that give us something like 5-10% LF when critically hit with a 20 sec ICD. Where that trait should go, idk but it would be alot more healthy than burning on a necro.