Guild Wars 2

yolo swaggins.2570:

There are plenty of two word replies this thread can say.

Pop…. Corn….

Choppy.4183:

ronpierce.2760:

Using Disc means a ridiculous loss in damage (arms) or no cleansing ire or no shout healing. You definitely don’t gain in the same way as having FH baseline, which also opens up for 4 sigils which is a large part of what makes Fast Hands so crazy outside of just better efficiency. And the new arms line is pretty solid. The sword trait and GM minor alone would be huge dps boosts from the standard shoutbow people run now without having to lose Cleansing ire nor FH.

Are you saying Discipline is otherwise an otherwise weak trait line? You’d pretty much have to be saying that if you want to claim warriors would become much more powerful if they didn’t need to take it to get FH.

Also, how does FH give warriors an advantage with sigils? Swap sigils are on 9s cooldowns.

I’m not saying it’s weak, but I do feel it’s more beneficial for power builds. Arms is a stronger alternative to disc outside of fast hands of you wanted a shout condition hybrid. If you could go arms and retain FH it would be no contest and a huge power boost.

And honestly, it’s disappointing people want FH baseline so much and don’t understand how it doubles sigils… If you run 4 unique swap sigils those cooldowns are all used efficiently, it doubles your effective sigils.

First set has Doom and Geomancy. Second has Battle and Intelligence.
Swap to the first set, it triggers. 5 seconds later swap to the second set, and trigger those. After the first swap cd and the second your first set of sigils are ready again. So you have two cycles of 10 second cooldown sigils going at once.

This doesn’t work for Ele and Engineer because they only have one set of sigils do swap speed isn’t taking advantage of anything. And other classes have to wait a full 10 seconds to swap, so naturally their primary set would go off cooldown when they switch again, gaining nothing unique for diversifying their sigils.

Being able to run Doom and Geomancy and Intell+other on a LB Sword Warhorn is part of what makes them so effective. They get great condition boosts from the longbow swap and 100% crit on their Final Thrust from intilligence. This is often paired with sigil of battle to add to that burst.

Cygnus.6903:

ronpierce.2760:

I can’t really prove it, as there are details to be seen, obviously. But 06660 after the trait changes would certainly be a powerful set up with shouts, and maybe even stances as either ss+lb or s wh +lb as a condition build which ~mostly uses Dicsc for its fast hands. It’d be very similar to shoutbow today only much more damage potential.

Just one option to consider. Plus we have no idea what the new trait line is so we could revisit that question down the road. Good question.

Well, that sounds good, but it doesn’t sound stronger then a version of it incorporating Discipline.

Condition builds will be crazy after the patch hits either way.

Using Disc means a ridiculous loss in damage (arms) or no cleansing ire or no shout healing. You definitely don’t gain in the same way as having FH baseline, which also opens up for 4 sigils which is a large part of what makes Fast Hands so crazy outside of just better efficiency. And the new arms line is pretty solid. The sword trait and GM minor alone would be huge dps boosts from the standard shoutbow people run now without having to lose Cleansing ire nor FH.

Cynz.9437:

ronpierce.2760:

Cynz.9437:

Tarkan.5609:

the sad thing is… some bad players actually still believe teef is op

the best part of it is when they roll thief thinking they gonna get carried and then spend whole match in downstate and cry to me how thief is unplayable :P

That’s because you confuse learning curve with potential.

so…. let’s punish players for learning how to play class well?………

Not punish. Rework the learning curve a bit. (Slightly better staying power, slightly less other areas), nothing enough to cause homogenization. I won’t get too specific here because I know it’s not in my best interest to discuss these things in a thief forum.

Cynz.9437:

ronpierce.2760:

Cynz.9437:

Ask yourself: is mesmer or necro melee classes?

Necro often is/can be. Especially reaper.

that is specialization not actual weapon sets… dagger is only thing that comes in mind and probably should have had some mobility in it instead of immob but other weapons? not really

Well I mean… You can’t be picky about it, dagger is pretty much the primary power weapon for necro, and Reaper adds melee shroud and GS, and the RS3 mobility isn’t very dependable because if you get jumped with no LF you’re just screwed.

Necro does need more mobility because regardless of base combat mobility also means roaming/objective usefulness too… Sucks to be only a partial roamed and always outclassed because another class perform all the same zerker role positions and can get from place to place in a third of the time.

Cynz.9437:

Ask yourself: is mesmer or necro melee classes?

Necro often is/can be. Especially reaper.

+1 I like this idea, they had something similar to impending casted heals on WoW, but the opposite is actually an even better idea.

Take this guys idea and run with it! Run as fast as you can, Anet!

Fuzzion.2504:

So the day is fast approaching.

Eles everywhere. Unite. Do not fear.

Whats the worst thing they can do to us? am i right …guys…helllooo

Ele will be fine. Elemental attunement will be minor again. Beyond that I think they will be just fine. At least it won’t be like the 2013(?) Ele near extinction.

BlackBeard.2873:

Courtyard is really just too cluttered with 5v5. It should have its own queue options as a 3v3 (or 2v2) arena. It was designed for fights of that size anyway.

And BO3 annihilation instead of Deathmatch. That’s a pretty important point.

Anyways, it doesn’t need its own anymore, so it won’t split thenpvp community anymore. All they need to do is add it to the check boxes and automatically omit teams from those game types of their party exceeds the team size limit (2 and 3 respectively) so solo and duo quers could get called for SH, Conquest or Arena unless they opt out of a certain mode. Easy peasy.

Cygnus.6903:

FH baseline means we get another minor trait in Discipline. This can be anything really, but, as it is a Master minor trait it is likely to be alright. So there would definitely be a flat increase in power.

But that is just all we would get, really. I mean, are we honestly stating here that if warriors could get FH baseline and thus invest in 3 traitlines that are not Discipline that they would become OP instantly?

Oh, how the warrior design would be proven to fail epicly if this were true.

So let’s try something else. Instead of asking for a build that is viable without FH (which nobody has yet provided), let’s ask for a build that would be OP with FH baseline, without traiting Discipline.

Something a lot of people here are forgetting is that Discipline is the best traitline for warrior alongside Defense. Yet Defense only provides just that, defense. So a warrior like Vaanss for example just ignores the traitline entirely to go full DPS, which is a fine trade-off in my book.

Discipline, though, is literally included in anything that’s worth using on warrior.

tl;dr: give me a build that’s OP with FH baseline, without Discipline.

I can’t really prove it, as there are details to be seen, obviously. But 06660 after the trait changes would certainly be a powerful set up with shouts, and maybe even stances as either ss+lb or s wh +lb as a condition build which ~mostly uses Dicsc for its fast hands. It’d be very similar to shoutbow today only much more damage potential.

Just one option to consider. Plus we have no idea what the new trait line is so we could revisit that question down the road. Good question.

Captain Unusual.9163:

ronpierce.2760:

I wish they’d swap dagger and focus skills so i could run Dagger/Dagger and get full benefit from the new blood dagger trait. would be worth having to get another dagger :P

I’m glad OH dagger is a condition weapon, I’ve run as a condimancer since launch and think daggers look much better than most foci.

Of course they do, but I’d love to run D/D (which looks the best!) and have the dagger trait be useful for a full bar of skills! Not that it’s impossible to run D/D even now but it isn’t something to write home about as they both have different goals.

Edit: Judt hypothetical anyways. They would likely never do something like this.

I wish they’d swap dagger and focus skills so i could run Dagger/Dagger and get full benefit from the new blood dagger trait. would be worth having to get another dagger :P

Shadow.1345:

ronpierce.2760:

@shadow
The counter play to channeled skills is interrupting it (steal/pistol4) before you stealth, considering you already are latched onto before you stealth, so that’s how I sort of see it. But anyways.

I agree, if it just removed stealth with no reveal I’d be okay with that, seems fair to me.

My biggest issue isn’t base stealth generally anyways, though. Really, SA just needs to be made more active and less of a reset build because that’s what makes it garbage (such as the ideas I threw out before that make it work with successful stealth attacks and other effects from coming out of stealth rather than directly benefitting while in stealth).

Sometimes it hits right as you go into stealth and then it also depends on range, LB Ranger can be at twice the range of pistol 4/steal too.

Also, look at what you just said. the counterplay to channeled ability is to play better and use your available skills. Seems to me that is what people who are saying to use movement, timing and prediction, ie. playing better and using your available skills.

A channeled skill isnt as much about prediction as it at least is started prior. Maybe the answer is to have Rapid fire have a bit of a pre-cast before it machine guns. Several channel skills do have some sort of minor wind up. I would totally be in support of that across the board, but that’d be work on the Devs part. No argument here, though.

@shadow
The counter play to channeled skills is interrupting it (steal/pistol4) before you stealth, considering you already are latched onto before you stealth, so that’s how I sort of see it. But anyways.

I agree, if it just removed stealth with no reveal I’d be okay with that, seems fair to me.

My biggest issue isn’t base stealth generally anyways, though. Really, SA just needs to be made more active and less of a reset build because that’s what makes it garbage (such as the ideas I threw out before that make it work with successful stealth attacks and other effects from coming out of stealth rather than directly benefitting while in stealth).

Salamander.2504:

Lily.1935:

Foot in the grave is really powerful. Why don’t you think its worth a grandmaster spot? Makes sense to me. Its an awesome trait. Maybe Up the number of Stab it gives but beyond that it doesn’t need a whole bunch of work.

^This. Foot in the grave (a traited 6 CD stunbreaker) needs to stay GM. It could use either (1) another stack of stability; or (2) a 1/2 second duration increase.

While I don’t really care where it lands, that’s a pretty misguided description of it’s power. It’s not really a 6 second CD stunbreak.

Maris.3164:

These threads just keep coming… Okay so you beat a thief to low health and they ran off then came back with full health. Any other class can do the same without running off (thus wasting time) and continue to beat you into a pulp.

/thread

All dat necro mobility and sustain! Roar.

I revive so we don’t wipe and because people don’t understand that they will get rewards if they just WP. Other times I do it out of good nature. I don’t see rallying changing much.

Akuni.8604:

You guys are so lazy. Go look through the wardrobe. There are skins from Halloween like the Crossing, the shadow weapons, the dreamthistle/TA aetherpath weapons (especially as Sylvari) alongside many many more options to mix and match from.

It takes time, yes but my Nekro wears a mix of 4 different clothing sets which meshes perfectly together with eachother and my weapons of choice.

I also think mad scientist fits more to condi Engies or Revs (Hot kitten , this shield <3).

Start experimenting already!

Crossing and shadow weapons were all new at one point too. New =\= uncreative or boring. This may be just what some people wanted!

Dahkeus.8243:

Ugh…I feel for the devs that have to read through threads like these. There’s so much “OMFG I hate this, but won’t articulate why!” and “Ur just bad duel me bro lolol” and other useless rhetoric that does next to nothing for fostering any kind of useful discussion…

Anyways, here’s my thoughts:
From the condi perspective, I don’t see why this change is needed, but I concede that it’s possible the situation after all the balance changes/specializations/etc. that may make this a sensible change.

From the boon perspective, I think this is going to be a really unpopular move. Almost all players will feel slower since we play a game without mounts and travelling with swiftness and leaps is what gets us around. This will really kill a lot of joy from players who are used to moving around at a certain pace. In PvP games, it should also slow the pace and remove the reward from teams that focus on rotating well.

I would suggest this compromise: Keep the condi changes, but allow leaps to increase movement distance under boons (swiftness) IF the player is not snared with cripple/chill.

People have said why, and you just went the exact opposite route. They’re upset that this buffs mobility and removes what little counter play we already had against a fleeing opponent (especially warriors, in this case). Your suggestion takes everything we’re worried about and makes it that much worse. These “movement impairing effects” are supposed to impair movement, and if that’s taken away that cripples classes that rely on soft CC versus mobility during combat, especially things like necromancer who they refuse to give meaningful and on-demand mobility to. (New reaper leap is both LF and Elite specialization locked, so not “reliable”.)

Sebrent.3625:

I think you misread. He’s replying to some of the (in my opinion) really stupid threads saying “so-and-so got things baseline … so give us these powerful traits baseline” … not even looking at the power of the traits other classes are getting baselined versus what they are requesting … nor looking at placement in metas, power creep, etc.

Lots of additional dumb***ery on the forums … more so than usual :-/

If I’m not mistaken, and I could be, I’m not sure this was ever meant to be taken seriously. I think it’s just poking fun at them and trying to be funny by coming up with their own off the wall suggestions. I don’t think they really mean what they’re suggesting.

Of course, I could be wrong, but thats how I took it.

Tyreal.5230:

lol wow Now medi guard is cheese huh? Thought I’d seen it all. Guess not.

Perfect example of why I try my best to stay away from these forums.

Erm. This actually isn’t news if you tpvp. It’s been a common feeling for a bit almost entirely due to Monks Focus and high block time (making it a decently tanky zerker). More than cheesy it’s often called easy to play “low risk high reward”.

Personally, i don’t really care, but I do think many healing traits are too strong baseline negating the idea of being squishy and lessens the value of healing power, which i actually do find to be a problem and certainly not exclusive to Guardian.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Why is this thread not locked? Nine pages of ignorant kitten kissing and ad Populum not enough for a lock? I knew this thread was going to be non-constructive the moment I read the title and whaddayaknow, it got really stupid on the first page.

The OP might want some discussion but the people who agree with him don’t. lol

This thread isn’t any worse than that “Nerf Thief” thread you guys have that does nothing but direct thieves where to sabotage threads that mention thief… At least this thread has a point to it…

Juba.8406:

lol

So almost every profession is angry at us for just having a simple discussion xD

Whats next ? nerf (forum/professions/warrior/) ?

Warrior is my second most played class. If a necromancer says something off the wall and blatantly OP I typically let them know that it’s out of line and why. The major difference is the Necromancer crowd tends to be slightly less combative (at least internally toward other Necromancers). You’re having a simple discussion and I’m giving you a simple statement that it would be a terrible change, and it’s very obvious to see the pro-warrior buff bias in this thread when the only alternative anyone is willing to accept is the one that baselines it for just the warrior, anything that could nerf it is instantly written off. This isn’t a simple discussion about build diversity, its a buff bait and little else.

Darksteel.8412:

Mia Crazymike.1780:

Darksteel.8412:

L Step.8659:

They are really determined to make sure necro will never have a small sliver of being viable. Luckily the lack of competition in NA means Nos can keep playing it until WTS so us necro players get to see something.

Mia Crazymike.1780:
Why don’t the developers SHARE their ideas/changes with the community beforehand?
cause look at the reactions and jokes they make…can’t have a healthy convo with these people..many of them are probably even at the age of not being allowed to drink or vote….could be a viable reason…not that dinking alchohol is something I promote but you get it. and this kid hasn’t even played reaper yet

This entire post is a double quote, right?

if that will make them understand more clearly then I suppose it is. Is this a problem?

It kind of is. You’re sort of taking a poor approach to defend this by calling people children. What good does that do? If they doubled Thief Initiative regen one day you don’t think you might make jokes and get a bit frustrated? Making jokes is a lot better way of coping than going ballistic. They’re professionals, they have to deal with criticism, but the criticism is less harsh when it’s handled properly.

Either way, I don’t really care, I just want to know if they plan on ever making Necromancers a real class so we can stop being a very niche #1 spammer and little else.

Phil.8901:

It’s a good change, at least classes without teleport can have a better disengage with leap skills.

Do You really want only Mesmer and Thief like roamer classes ?

Yeah, in all fairness, it’s no worse than Teleports will ever be… At least they don’t go dashing up hills so I can catch up to them with further ranged CC. I can’t always do that when someone zips up a cliff and takes off.

I’m just wondering where this leaves Necromancers… Something has to give with all this “Necro’s don’t have mobility” stuff because at this point, it doesn’t matter how well they fix us in combat unless we end up walking juggernauts because we can’t move fast enough to be worthy of objectives and we can’t escape fights so we feed enemy points. Really, something has to give here. :/

Sebrent.3625:

I wish you hadn’t shown me that link to the Ranger subforum … ugh

Explain, hopefully it reverted you from actually thinking this is a good idea because these changes are absolutely silly, what they’re asking for.

1.) Classes don’t have innate bonuses like this. Anything made baseline were direct changes to abilities to reduce the specific skill trait dependencies, not remove the impact of traits on the characters.
2.) The things they want baseline (warrior) are some of the best traits in the game.
3.) They could just as easily give everyone 5 second swaps or nerf Fast Hands to not be as mandatory, but no, they don’t want that, there is no give and take here.
4.) Warriors are fine and will be even more fine after the changes.
5.) Most warriors would still end up using Discipline, likely, anyways because of the other swap-traits and Burst mastery.
6.) All of this is a silly slippery slope, anything having to do with Burst skills and weapons, or anything that seems “warrior-ish” has slowly been added to the list of wishful-baselining.

Look at Necromancers, there is a LOT of stuff that affects Life Force, Death Shroud and Death Shroud skills, it doesn’t mean it have to all be baseline just because almost every Necro will take Vital Persistence and the other traits affect their “core mechanic”. Traits affect a number of things, and that’s perfectly fine.

Seriously, this thread is silly and frankly, shameful. At least your tree-defining traits are mostly minors (with the exception of Cleansing Ire). I’d kill for Vital Persistence to be a Minor rather than forcing a choice in that column, let alone baseline…

(This isn’t all just at you, Sebrent.)

Mia Crazymike.1780:

Why don’t the developers share their ideas/changes with the community beforehand?

They kind of are. But yeah, as said, I’m betting this has more to do with slow than anything. All they need to do now is bump CDs and give them the RtL treatment and it will be fine.

Better idea would be to up the amount the bank can carry at once to like 5,000. That would be great.

They really need to do something though. If they’re going to design a goofy crafting system that requires thousands of the same several mats, they need to also design a decent storage system for it.

Now Necromancer just needs a new trait called “Relentless Death” that says:

When an enemy affected by your movement impairing conditions uses a movement skill the condition intensifies. (10 second ICD per target, Includes leaps/dashes/teleports)

Crippled: Applies a 2 second immobilize at the end of the skill.
Chilled: Applies a 1 second frozen stun at the end of the skill.

That’ll teach kittenes to run away from me! >:O

choovanski.5462:

Faux.1937:

choovanski.5462:

Faux.1937:

I see, But if you get the (block) you KNOW RIGHT WHERE THE THIEF IS.

So what am I missing?

neither your nor your allies can target them

@Faux: no passive heal? you ever heard of shadow arts? you seen what that thing is becoming with the changes… ohhhh boyyyyy

I said good…. having little and ALOT are 2 different things.

Look at Ele, Engi, War and Ranger at least to see what I mean.

you can grab both shadow protector and shadow’s rejuvenation. on it’s own is 293 base, which is solid compared to 362 from the hated healing signet. both of the traits combined with the now free resilience of shadows is a huge survivability boost.

Which is funny when thieves try to relate SR to Healing Signet and say it’s somehow not as bad. Note: Thief still has a heal (And instant cast for that matter, for whatever reason) and… How do I put this… Basically any amount of healing on a thief is more impactful as it equates to a higher amount of effective HP because of their design based around not getting hit as often. SR is way more potent than I feel Thieves will give credit to. Especially when the new traits hit.

Other than making them BO3 annihilation instead of the current death match, it’d be super easy to add 2v2/3v3s so the pool to chose from. Simply “force” opt out of 2v2/3v3 matches if the team is higher than the 2/3 threshold of players for those matches. Then solo queuers and small teams could get pulled for either stronghold, conquest OR a small arena match, unless they turn them off. Other people could turn off Cobquest and Stronghold and specifically focus on arenas. This new system they are adding could very easily allow them to add 2v2/3v3 without as harshly separating the pvp community.

Now if only Courtyard wasn’t such a crazy map we’d be in business. It has too much terrain which really gives an edge to high mobility classes and screws over anything with a pet.

I don’t really think the WHOLE Anet staff nor NCSoft cares about WTS enough to delay production over it. Things are going to be constantly changing. People are just going to have to learn to play around changes, if I had to guess. If anything, it could be a good way for them to showcase the new meta, and it’s far enough out for them to have time to get used to the changes.

I always thought it’d be cool if it was a 1 second cast unique DoT that you latch onto someone (kinda like the new Guardian DH f1) that siphoned health over time and couldn’t be removed. That’d be sweeeeeeeeeeeeet. But unlike now it’d be a 1 shot thing so if you miss you miss.

Selene.9415:

ronpierce.2760:

pandorasbox.6340:

ronpierce.2760:

We estimate tomorrow, give or take some time.

Some time? It has been almost 6 months since announced at PAX. I know patience is a virtue, but I only have so much of it. Currently the expansion is in TBA form. TBA could mean tomorrow, it could mean winter 2016.

Telling us Q4 2016 would be better then this.

I’ll do you one better, Q3 projections show a quadruple earnings, and they slipped up saying summer release and the pre-patch will be in 1-3 weeks handling the specialization changes. Long story short, expect between July and September and you’ll be golden.

You’re going to be disappointed.

The summer released thing was already reneged (hesitant to even use that because it wasn’t really “promised”) on by another dev.

The predictions were for a heavy increase in Q3, with even more of an increase in Q4 which imo is more likely to mean prepurchases will start sometime july/september, with the actual release being closer to october/november (if not even december).

Edit: Spelling

http://www.kdbdw.com/bbs/download/192028.pdf?attachmentId=192028
Q3 projects 91, Q4 is 51.

Also as far as I could tell (and recall) the dev said nothing except “nothing is set in stone” typical damage control bandaid over the slip up.

Lily.1935:

Foot in the grave is really powerful. Why don’t you think its worth a grandmaster spot? Makes sense to me. Its an awesome trait. Maybe Up the number of Stab it gives but beyond that it doesn’t need a whole bunch of work.

Terror is actually fairly weak as a grandmaster And I am of the personal opinion that it needs to be buffed. I mentioned fusing Master of Terror with terror to really give it some oomph as a grandmaster. And or maybe modifying its damage a bit. But beyond that it doesn’t need much work.

Lingering Curse should stay were it is as it is. Its a perfectly fine grandmaster and it would be a major loss to condition builds to drop that down a tier. Even if it was kept as is it shouldn’t compete with path of corruption.

Parasitic contagion should just be removed. Its not a good trait. If its moved to blood.. Fine.. but otherwise I don’t want to see it in the patch notes.

Personally, I just feel like FitG and Vital Persistence would make better minors since they’re so commonly used and frankly, VP very often out-shines any other choice. Plus they directly have to do with DS which is what the entire line is about, so I just think they’d make more sense as Minors (maybe without the stability on fitg as a minor??).

That’s always sort of been my thing. I don’t really want more baseline necessarily, but I think the minors should very strongly reflect what the tree is based around.

pandorasbox.6340:

ronpierce.2760:

We estimate tomorrow, give or take some time.

Some time? It has been almost 6 months since announced at PAX. I know patience is a virtue, but I only have so much of it. Currently the expansion is in TBA form. TBA could mean tomorrow, it could mean winter 2016.

Telling us Q4 2016 would be better then this.

I’ll do you one better, Q3 projections show a quadruple earnings, and they slipped up saying summer release and the pre-patch will be in 1-3 weeks handling the specialization changes. Long story short, expect between July and September and you’ll be golden.

We estimate tomorrow, give or take some time.

glock.6590:

The real counter play to stealth is actually very simple> being a bruiser or a bunker. A shoutbow for example can affrod to eat 4-5 backstabs in a row , same goes with cele ele/engi , bunker ranger and even medi guard.

Anything that isint tanky or doesn’t have high recovery , will find stealth extremely frustrating to fight against unless you can obviously counter stealth ( being a thief yourself)

So the lack of counter play to stealth only affects glass/zerker builds going up against a thief. I don’t know how it would be possible to nerf thief vs zerker builds without affecting it against tankier builds or high recovery builds like medi guard.

Cele is getting nerfed. Beyond that, base heals of certain skills need reduced and have higher healing coefficients so they can’t be as tanky without more investment (Shouts/Monks Focus) and slightly reduced durations on Ele boons, specifically protection a bit. Engineer will be changing a lot so, it’s hard to know there. So really, they’re already on the right path.

Imo, they need to change Shadow Arts in the same way they did with Strength traits on Warrior, rather than rewarding sitting in stealth (or High Adrenaline), have them be rewarded base on using stealth attacks or leaving stealth. A few examples:

Shadow Rejuvination: Successful stealth attack gain 6 second of Shadow Rejuvination, heal over time (reduced amount, about 160-200) and 1 initiative every 2 seconds.

Resilience of Shadows: Exiting Stealth gains 3 seconds of protection. 3 second cooldown.

Shadow’s embrace: Successful stealth attacks transfer 2 conditions to your enemy.

Just some fly ideas, but the point is, it could be made viable but simply more fun to play against and discourage camping.

evilapprentice.6379:

ronpierce.2760:

evilapprentice.6379:

@Shadow

Like I told TerrorSquad, you’re wasting your time. Supreme believes that the only current counter to stealth is “AoEing the area you saw them stealth in”, and despite MrBigs claim of 5k games played he believes the only counter to stealth is “random dodging”.

If these players haven’t figured out how to move, think and predict (as you outlined) in the last 3 years, you walking them through it isn’t going to help. All the logic in the world proves useless against blind zealotry. None of these forums warriors came here for a discussion or an exchange of ideas, they came to shout their “point” (incorrect as it is) loudly and repeatedly in the face of all common sense. Unless they get a button whose function is “I win against stealth now”, they won’t be happy.

Anyone complaining about stealth 3 years in would be better served playing a less complex game that doesn’t expect its players to learn things on their own.

You sure love your buzzwords don’t you?

Just as much as bad players love requesting nerfs for a class they haven’t bothered to learn, and haven’t put the effort into learning how to fight.

That’s like saying all other zerker players are bad and ironically the best players all play thief. It doesn’t work that way. Thief defines the Mets and has for a very long time, to the point that I’d almost suggest it’s the cause of the celestial meta. Thief has more mobility and “outs” than it deserves, while it could realistically use a bit more staying power in fights instead. (Sort of leveling the playing field design wise.)

I feel thieves get a bit kitteny calling everyone bad and saying “try it, see for yourself” because I’m sure they realize, thief has a pretty decent learning curve. It’s that learning curve that keeps it broken. It’s so squishy, yeah, it’s easy to be bad with. But play against a good thief, be one yourself or just listen to them talk, it’s easy to see, they are one of the most powerful once you are good with them and have a good handle on the tricks. Not to mention historically, stealth just isn’t a fun mechanic to play against. It feels like a major crutch and I don’t think you give it enough credit for how much it benefits you. You constantly talk about how little it does for you, yet when anyone suggest to nerf it a bit all of the thieves go crazy in defense mode. Your actions tell more to the story than you think.

All I’ve ever said was that thief needs some redesigns to bring them more in line with the rest of the game, but I’m perfectly fine with also compensating for those changes as well.

I get you like thief, but sometimes you have to just consider that for other people having really high evade time (SD) or high capability for resetting fights (dp) it just feels cheap and unfun to fight unless the person is bad.

For example, most of the skills on necromsncer that add up to anything has .75-1.3 sec cast times. Those are reasonable for reaction times. Thieves run a steal that has a 21 second cd, dazes, damages and heals, poisons, steals boons (stability first, talk about cheap) and soon will also grant stealth on standard builds. That’s one move that is instant. That’s just silly, and I’m sorry if it offends you. But when a thief tells me to “predict it and get good” I can only thing “get a life”.

I don’t have thieves, but I wish the had to adhere to many of the same combat expectancies that the rest of us do. Thieves have it bad in large group fights, but they are in no way hurting for viability.

Malediktus.3740:

ronpierce.2760:

Duke Nukem.6783:

im so done with weapon skins, i cant keep up anymore and they are releasing them faster than ever lately, it must be because they arnt selling so well anymore

maybe they should move on to black lion armor skins?

Selling and making them faster if they aren’t doing well would be a troublesome escalation of commitment. Likely they have data on sale trends and they probably slow down after about two weeks. I could see that. Dry times are wasted potential.

Its a pain to do the black lion collections if you only have 3 weeks. We used to have 4-6 weeks to get those 700-1000g (+ the 7 tickets from the previous collection).
It wouldnt be so bad if the black lion achievements would not exist, but they do so I feel forced to do them. Currently at 16 completed collections.

I get it, but shorter durations mean people feel the heat to use their ticket claims, which forces sales, which also works better on expected demand curves. Technically speaking, it works for their intended purposes.

Duke Nukem.6783:

im so done with weapon skins, i cant keep up anymore and they are releasing them faster than ever lately, it must be because they arnt selling so well anymore

maybe they should move on to black lion armor skins?

Selling and making them faster if they aren’t doing well would be a troublesome escalation of commitment. Likely they have data on sale trends and they probably slow down after about two weeks. I could see that. Dry times are wasted potential.

evilapprentice.6379:

@Shadow

Like I told TerrorSquad, you’re wasting your time. Supreme believes that the only current counter to stealth is “AoEing the area you saw them stealth in”, and despite MrBigs claim of 5k games played he believes the only counter to stealth is “random dodging”.

If these players haven’t figured out how to move, think and predict (as you outlined) in the last 3 years, you walking them through it isn’t going to help. All the logic in the world proves useless against blind zealotry. None of these forums warriors came here for a discussion or an exchange of ideas, they came to shout their “point” (incorrect as it is) loudly and repeatedly in the face of all common sense. Unless they get a button whose function is “I win against stealth now”, they won’t be happy.

Anyone complaining about stealth 3 years in would be better served playing a less complex game that doesn’t expect its players to learn things on their own.

You sure love your buzzwords don’t you?

Lol don’t even pretend to be like the Fast Hands people. They are boneheads. Luckily, Ranfers did get some good stuff baseline. At this point, I’d almost rather push for some axe skill reworks than trait stuff. And that’s not a joke. Ace skills and sword 1 need fixed “baseline” :P

Yes, and while we’re at it, please add Nomad’s. d(‘-’d)

Personally, I’d rather people use the forums to discuss and “complain” about things they dislike about the game than someone making a thread every other day on how they dislike that other people complain (usually because they play a class that is considered over the top, so they resort to belittling as a form of distraction). One is more constructive than the other.

Some of the complaints are in full regard of the trait changes as we know them. And with their track record of how slow updates come, now is the perfect time to keep feedback and theory crafting coming. They have the resources now to make big changes and really play around with things.

Also, never tell a customer to not give their feedback. That gets the name no where. Posting on a forum does not hurt their production levels, so no harm done.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Did they alter some changes after the stream. I’m pretty sure I saw panic strike on critical strikes master :O and they were talking about making it less RNG-ish

Might be something still to come. they’ve done some heavy revisions to a lot of trait lines since before. They haven’t given too many details yet though. They said they’d have a new write up or something detailing their progress “soon”, who knows what that means though.

Laraley.7695:

ronpierce.2760:

Ravenmoon.5318:

ResJudicator.7916:

You’ve kinda just outed yourself as someone who doesn’t know your own class… Most of the top thieves are running DP panic strike, which is Deadly Arts + Shadow Arts + Trickery. What the new changes will let you do is max out shadow arts for free. Also, taking SA will be even less of a sacrifice once they decouple stats from traits.

What you should be saying is that no sane thief will camp stealth in a conquest game, which is accurate. But SA still offers a lot of passive survivability even if you’re not camping stealth, and it also further reduces the counterplay to stealth.

Panic strike will move down to Critical Strikes as Master trait. At least from what was shown on the 4 hour stream some weeks ago.

Nope.
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgcBqAPoBdg~

Thieves will now also stealth when they steal with 6/0/6/0/6 builds and take 50% less damage in stealth. Can’t wait, really.

I don’t think the numbers will stay. Also, you should complain about what mesmers got in this case, too. Like Mental Torment is just insane at its current state. But they did say the numbers will change.

I have, trust me, and ShoutBanners. I don’t limit my critique, as I said, I just don’t have time to go through every issue in the game every time I make a point about one thing.

Ravenmoon.5318:

ResJudicator.7916:

You’ve kinda just outed yourself as someone who doesn’t know your own class… Most of the top thieves are running DP panic strike, which is Deadly Arts + Shadow Arts + Trickery. What the new changes will let you do is max out shadow arts for free. Also, taking SA will be even less of a sacrifice once they decouple stats from traits.

What you should be saying is that no sane thief will camp stealth in a conquest game, which is accurate. But SA still offers a lot of passive survivability even if you’re not camping stealth, and it also further reduces the counterplay to stealth.

Panic strike will move down to Critical Strikes as Master trait. At least from what was shown on the 4 hour stream some weeks ago.

Nope.
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgcBqAPoBdg~

Thieves will now also stealth when they steal with 6/0/6/0/6 builds and take 50% less damage in stealth. Can’t wait, really.

I don’t think it would be that bad. They’d obviously reduce the base of it was made to stack and rework how much individual skills give. Allowing it to stack allows the boon to be more flexible. Instead of it being an"trash" boon that people have up quite often in teams, instead you could have less but longer lasting trickle heals or skills intended for more bursary healing over time, such as 12 seconds of 1 stack versus 3 seconds of 4 stacks. And of course, where things stack you immediately see less uptime as each application no longer extends the duration. It would almost without a doubt be more fun to play with.