I think you can learn from observation. I was merely pointing out the difference between what you and baba were talking about and that it was derailing the actual discussion of effective pvp builds.
Can we talk about what I posted about D/D condi in higher level pvp and the limitations that presents? That seems more on topic and actually in agreement with you somewhat.
Are you going to ignore me and focus on an esoteric argument about observational learning? There is a clear difference between observational (i.e. playing against the build is question) and watching a video on youtube. You and baba may be talking about different things in that sense (him youtube and you fighting in spvp matches).
There aren’t that many videos of condi P/D out there. You can’t say much from a relative lack of evidence.
Many don’t run trapper runes and only run one trap. They use traits to drop a trap on heal and then double up that trap, plus confusion and poison on steal.
The stealth stacking is combo heartseeker + blackpowder. The trait line to make this work well is Shadow Arts. It is a “core” build that generally runs Shadow Arts, Deadly Arts, Trickery.
The build is weak against condition clear and mobile opponents. It can also not handle anti-stealth traps or other AoE reveal abilities. The statement “only kills bad players” is fairly accurate.
So you haven’t played condi thief in years and you want to argue against it based on how effective you imagine it to be. Let me talk a little about condition clear mechanics and why D/D condi fails at higher level play.
D/D is the most common form of condi build for thief because a lot of players imagine that evasion will be more valuable in spvp. Unfortunately, because that evasion skill is also the main attack skill there is a HUGE amount of punishment from newer HoT (and updated post HoT) specialization traits that clear condis on being hit/block/evasion/etc. If your survival is based around constant evade with a skill that hits multiple times then ironically your survival will also contribute to the condi clear of your opponent.
D/D also lacks pressure unless it happens to be on top of your target. This makes kiting them laughably easy. Gap closers on the set are limited so it can result in the image of a thief running and death blossom’ing after a moving target that is shooting them to death.
D/D also generally won’t use stealth. This makes taking SA for Rending Shade a bad idea given the need to add more cover conditions through Deadly Arts. But this means that Resistance makes this build much much less effective. As in, completely counters this build. So any warrior or resistance generating revenant will be able to laugh off this build.
See what I’m getting at? D/D, the most commonly thought of “condi thief” build, is actually arguably the worst condi build for thief to use. It has no finesse, no mobility, and its mechanics are countered by the anti-condi abilities that were paired with HoT. So I agree with you about the limitations of one condi thief setup in higher level play. What you are ignoring is that there are other condi thief builds (including hybrid and pure condi D/P builds) that actually do better than you think is possible.
And a final point. Consensus has value as a starting point. It has less value where consensus is merely group think.
Ironically, in a +1 (i.e. Team fights), my kill time is roughly 6 seconds or so. Not sure where you are getting this 12 second number and assuming I can’t contribute. The maximum tick time for my burst is 6-8 seconds.
And I do try to coordinate with my team. Obviously, if your team can’t focus/call targets and can’t win the map mechanics then condi vs power isn’t the issue.
If thief fits into mobility decap and team fight support then that describes me. My shareable venoms with aoe poison and targeted focus damage can be effective in the +1 area. My mobility is also better than many thieves running more traditional builds.
I’ll point out that with venom share being baseline that even sharing the venoms with just two teammates increases the torment stacks by 8 and the poison by 12 on a focused target.
Venoms + Steal + Dodge (Uncatchable) + Sneak Attack + Shadowstrike =
6 stacks of poison, 5 stacks confusion, 6-8 stacks of bleeding, 8 stacks of torment (6 outside of sPvP), 6-18 seconds of cripple.
You can make that 10 stacks of confusion if you combo inside throw gunk.
Stealth traps are fun because I have often see them lay it down and intentionally trigger it to waste their resources. A shortbow can teleport and evade around enough after you trigger it to sustain for the 30 seconds required.
Some bunker sustain builds are just generally good at holding points (camps or circles in PvP). Sometimes a sustain build will just sit and laugh at whatever class you are on for this reason. But that is a difficulty of a game mode where having an immortal ele/druid/dh will carry the game.
A team might blame me, the thief, for not doing enough to decap when they are 3v1ing the ele on a point and the ele isn’t dying. Hard to decap when the rest of their team is roaming around and picking off my teammates. And that is irrespective of whether I’m condi or power. The thief will not be able to stand on point and the bunker will decap or cap.
Point capture could be a channel rather than simply “stand in circle.” That would at least allow people to compete for a node outside of the “capture zone” where you can trigger the channel to capture/decap. But that is less about P/D and more about the health of a competitive gamemode where bunker has a fundamental advantage by being better able to contest and protect captured points.
Condi damage can be less damage on paper but comes with some advantages.
If poison is part of the condi spread then heals are 33% less effective. So condi needs to do less damage to overcome healing. Also, even though condi does its damage over time, if there isn’t enough condi clear then that person will die before they have the chance to heal back up (i.e. use a healing skill or other form of reset).
Your suggestions would make me (or another condi thief) into OP gods of the field. In sPvP my opening combo right now is 16.2k damage—without counting the variable damage of the confusion I apply on steal. My suggestions would be to increase the sustained damage portion (i.e. bleed on Sneak Attack) and thereby increase the burst by roughly 2k. So the burst would go to 18ish and the sustained damage would be stronger as well. Give me burning and more confusion access and my burst will easily exceed 25-30k. That would be OP. I’m not saying I’m overly powerful now, but you do need to be careful in saying “buff condi because it sucks” when the reality is not nearly as hopeless as you seem to think.
And saying “telling players not to play is productive” is clearly wrong. It isn’t a reasonable suggestion so if no one will take your “advice” it won’t actually matter at the end of the day.
P/D in a team fight can be very effective. I use Rending Shade, which strips a lot of boons. A warrior who is sustaining due to his boons will quickly die in a team fight if I am there. If I can strip resistance off of him, which is common, I can quickly have a DoT on him that can kill him even with full Adrenal Health active.
Any thief that isn’t using full evade build won’t be able to contest points anyway unless they win the fight. Most thieves will also struggle against a bunker, even if they win the fight there will be a better use of their time in decap/teamfight elsewhere.
I also want to point out that stealth is how this build does damage. Sneak attacks, which I argued elsewhere could afford a buff in sPvP, are something that requires stealth to activate. The build doesn’t camp stealth any more than necessary to initiate an attack or withdraw to another node.
If you honestly believe that condi thief is underpowered—which needs some specificity as to what weaponset you are talking about—then the question becomes how would you buff it in order to make it strong enough to compete?
Just coming here to attack players who want to compete with it, and attacking us for trying to compete with it, isn’t productive.
Take a build that runs P/D. They doubled the torment on Shadowstrike. Is this not enough or is that fine? Should we buff the condition output or durations? Is Sneak Attack’s duration too short in sPvP? Or is the problem that there isn’t enough poison built into the offhand dagger set (increasing total condition potential application). Are venoms, which are what I used to burst condition damage, still underpowered and need buffs? Is it merely the damage that needs a buff or another decrease in the cooldown?
Personally, I think the bleed damage/duration on Sneak Attack is oddly small compared to the PvE and WvW variants. That could be buffed significantly without becoming overpowered in the gamemode. The reason is the present trend in HoT condition clears that require a player to stop attacking in order for the conditions to not be cleared (think Diamond Skin or Escapist’s Absolution or Hunter’s Fortification or Adaptive Armor—not a clear but 20% reduction when struck—or (special mention) Druidic Clarity which is just a massive condi clear once they have done enough damage/healing on a short timer).
Rather than a tone adjustment I think you need to make productive suggestions if you want people to listen to you.
In PvP having an immobilize is really useful in team fights. It is similar to hitting them with basi venom just as everyone’s burst hits. If they can’t break it or block it it adds up to a lot of damage.
Of course, this requires coordination and target calling. Some teams do that well and others never seem to even try. Honestly, as a single target damage dealer, having good target calls and teammates kittenpond to target calls is sometimes a big determining factor.
I don’t encounter large numbers of warriors in general. Most I see is 2 in a match but that is rare. Often if you see a warrior there is just one on a team or one on each team.
Really the issue is that the game mode involves holding static points. A single DH that knows how to sustain can have an outsize impact while still contributing damage in a team fight. But that DH can’t be everywhere. Even two DH of moderate skill can be worked around. Three DH are where it starts to become unmanageable unless one of the DH players is fairly weak.
Condition duration bonuses are more helpful on builds that utilize short term but high damage conditions. An example is the Sneak Attack ability or Shadowstrike which gain damage from duration increases that are small enough to avoid cleanse.
An instant cleanse will eliminate all the damage, so an increase in base damage won’t matter that much. The duration increase on a short term condition will be a lot more damaging. Because once they can no longer cleanse the final result will be more impactful.
Many sustain ele and druid builds have trouble killing anything. I can imagine a D/D condi thief would be perfectly happy holding a captured point against a sustain ele who won’t die but won’t be off fighting with his/her team at the other points.
There are a lot of kinds of condi builds. D/P has a condi build. P/D has a condi build. D/D has an infamous condi build. Are they as strong as other builds? Maybe not, but that argument is the same as saying what isn’t “in meta” should never be played. That brings a lot of assumptions into play—like what is actually the strongest.
Take D/P. Here is a set “in meta.” So people practice to get good with the set. Because people practice with it, and it has a high skill ceiling, they gain a lot of skill using it. Now does that mean another set would be inferior if they switched? Of course! Because they have a lot of experience and muscle memory built up on D/P. And none or relatively little on the weapon set they switched to.
I struggle to imagine you actually having fought a P/D thief as a warrior. If you had you might have a different opinion.
To be actually clear:
A condi thief running Rending Shade will destroy warriors who over rely on resistance.
Ever heard of boonstrip/steal?
Try playing against a good condi thief.
Not really, if you are using P/D the synergy helps make the set more viable.
And if you use the Deadshot Amulet the duration is 6.75 seconds. You can, in admittedly ideal circumstances, stack up to 12 torment at a time through this ability alone.
EDIT:
And the set provides boonstrip from range as well as on demand immobilize (highly underrated).
(edited by saerni.2584)
Forum just ate a large post…sigh.
Ok, so the big things with SA are boosts to duration of stealth—makes it easier to land the attacks—and the extra stealth on steal. Also, the cooldown reduction to HiS and Shadowstep improve both of those immensely—6 and 10 second reductions respectively. Secondary buffs in SA are movement speed and damage reduction in stealth—both of which help with sustain and positioning in general and I think both are under appreciated.
P/D could use a means to gain unblockable stealth attacks, but that is true for a lot of thief builds in general. Would probably be OP, might not, who knows? Could be an option for testing through PvP in the off season. Otherwise, I agree with messiah about the block/reflects being an issue—and agree less so about condi clears (if there were less issues of block/reflect then the amount of condi clear wouldn’t be quite as debilitating.
P/D is largely about mastering when to attack, when to put away your gun, and how to use off hand dagger. My tips for success on cloak and dagger is to always aim for the easy target. You aren’t trying to do damage using CnD, so using it on a ranger pet, another player who isn’t your target, an environmental object, etc. can be a better choice. Stay calm and use it at the right moment and you will be a much greater threat.
Not sure how it works, but it seems that they paint certain surfaces with a “no go” covering for teleports. That and small surface bumps can be a problem.
One frustrating thing is in the Colosseum on the home platform. There are random times when a teleport fails with no valid path on a supposedly flat surface. An example with the no go paint is the platforms above mid which need to be jumped on instead.
A favorite peeve of mine is even the stairs on the inside of WvW towers are painted “no-go” even though the enemy certainly can’t see the stairs from outside.
I wish the devs would insert a debug code into the game to report back no valid path errors. Then we could see the most common maps/locations with no valid path errors and maybe get a little bit of dev time on resolving them. I’d love to see the line in the patch notes “resolved pathing errors.”
I land it all the time. Sometimes I miss, but that happens with every ability.
I’ve been testing with Deadshot Amulet and P/D. The build runs with Krait Runes, Agony Sigil and Torment Sigil (works well with the crit chance on the amulet).
I’m not done quite done testing and refining. It takes some getting used to given the lack of HP compared to Carrion.
I will say that I’ve used Shadowstrike several times now in contexts where projectile hate would otherwise prevent me from contributing damage. If you can maintain about 8 stacks of torment it can tick for around 2k (without vulnerability, boons, or other map specific stat bonuses).
People always feel like venting after a loss or something. In those cases they are worth a block but nothing more serious. People who use emotes or jumping on people fall into a similar category in part because it is relatively harmless and also because it is hard to say that the meaning you took is the meaning they intended.
It is when people start using language that is sexist, racist, homophobic, or contains death threats, kitten threats (or wishing those on them) that it crosses the line. Telling someone to stop playing the game also crosses a line, imo, because it goes against the spirit of playing a game with others. If the only way a person can play with another player is to threaten them, make them feel unsafe, or otherwise make them feel unwelcome to play, then that person is a problem for the community.
Anet is free of course to handle reports as their own policies dictate. We as players however are free to report them. There is a big difference between Anet saying “abuse of reporting feature” and the community saying “we reported this person because they violated community standards of common decency and respect.”
It can work but I will provide a few criticisms.
(1) Your only condi clear is EA and HiS, which if they stop attacking will melt you given the longer cooldown on HiS. You should probably have another condi clear utility on your bar.
(2) You are highly vulnerable to movement impairing conditions, especially immobilize.
(3) You will not usually be standing next to other people so taking Weakening Strikes over Havoc Mastery may provide a better result overall. You may want Brawler’s instead because you can take Impairing Daggers for more condition application.
(4) You can benefit from swapping the base 6% condition increase (which is much less because the stats are hybrid) for a duration bonus sigil for poison. This can work much better if you take a utility that also can apply poison. Impairing Dagger’s (see above) is a strong option because it also provides good cover conditions and an immobilize. The venom, on a slightly longer cooldown, is also a good source of poison (but you may prefer the torment venom instead).
See my signature for a more condition oriented build for P/D.
There is trash talking and verbal abuse. Pretty easy to tell the difference and trash talking can backfire in pleasant ways.
For an example of trash talking, there was a game I played where it was close, like 25 points. We were behind and this opponent said in map chat that the thief (me) was the reason we had lost the match. (I’m pretty sure I was 1st/2nd in the rankings for points on my team). I ignored him, focused on rotations, and ultimately we won by 25 points.
Certainly made the victory more satisfying for me.
I’m wary of changes that comes through traits because that doesn’t address baseline and only buffs the specs that already take the traitline in question. I’ve seen D/P condi builds for example that already take Dagger Training. Rather than buff the traits I’d like to adjust the weapon skills themselves to be inherently more useful.
I’ve already suggested smaller changes so now I’d like to suggest slightly larger ones.
Cloak and Dagger (option 3)—add a short evade frame to CnD. 1/4 second at the end of the animation. Makes it harder to interrupt and increases the ability to use the ability in a tight spot with lots of damage flying around.
Well, communities are free to police themselves as to tone and behavior generally.
Report them for verbal abuse and move on. If they repeat the bad behavior enough they will face a temporary or permanent ban.
I agree that cripple is much less effective in the Resistance and post HoT meta. I would prefer that Resistance made conditions 33% less effective rather than the 100% immunity they currently enjoy. I’d prefer that in part because then we get less into power creep to compensate.
Aegis isn’t the most important thing to steal imo.
Protection, resistance, quickness, fury, regeneration, vigor. These are highly beneficial to you in a fight and losing them, for your enemy, is equally problematic. Aegis only protects them from one auto-attack.
It turns a class with relatively low boon access, especially defensive boons, and gives us matching access to whatever we are fighting.
D/D (power), P/D (condi), S/D (power) all use off-hand dagger in their builds. There have been a number of threads recently and historically that discuss buffing these weapon sets in the context of off-hand dagger. The sPvP patch post also suggests skill splits as a first step towards potentially introducing game wide adjustments. Most of the suggestions I’ve seen involve Cloak and Dagger and are more functional changes than the adjustments Gaile suggested they were initially willing to consider, quoted below:
Recharge
Damage multipliers
Healing multipliers
Number of conditions/boons applied
Duration of conditions/boons applied
Skill cost (energy and initiative)
Functional* (only if none of the above would suffice to address an issue)
So I’d like to use this thread to lay out the potential options for Dancing Dagger and Cloak and Dagger, focusing on non-functional changes. I think smaller buffs are better if also paired with nerfs to other classes that make the skills naturally more useful. I don’t see a need to buff the abilities by adding in new condition application—rather by adjusting the amount/duration of conditions that are already applied.
Dancing Dagger (base description)—The damage isn’t incredible, but it doesn’t have a huge initiative cost and applies a decent amount of cripple. The range is also quite good. I’d compare this to the auto attack on the shortbow. You can get ranged cripple aoe and damage at 900 range for 3 initiative. This skill often gets compared to Head Shot, an on demand interrupt, unfavorably, due to the massive difference in utility between the two.
Dancing Dagger (suggestion)—I would consider an on bounce change. The ability doesn’t really need more damage and is more effective against multiple enemies. For that reason I would change the cripple effect as follows. 1st hit is 3 seconds of cripple, 1st bounce is 3.5 seconds of cripple, 2nd bounce is 4 seconds of cripple, final bounce is 4.5 seconds of cripple. This adds to the utility of using the ability without a massive adjustment or functionality change. It also brings it somewhat closer to an on demand interrupt in terms of relative utility.
Cloak and Dagger (base description)—Cloak and Dagger applies vulnerability and does medium damage in addition to granting stealth. The speed of the strike is relatively slow. For this reason it can be much easier to dodge. It is also simultaneously vulnerable to being blocked/invulned against. This is compared to Black Powder + Heartseeker because a thief can use that combo to gain stealth from anywhere.
Cloak and Dagger (suggestion one)—The vulnerability granted by landing the ability is somewhat low compared to the difficulty of pulling it off. It just seems strange that it is 3 stacks and not say 5. A lot of the discussions around how to buff D/D (power) have been focused on buffing backstab and increasing the vulnerability on CnD would indirectly buff a follow-up backstab. It would also be a relatively small change compared to other choices.
Cloak and Dagger (suggestion two)—Another change that has been suggested has been to make this skill unblockable. The reason this is a popular choice is the potential use of basilisk’s venom to make this skill unblockable. The adjustment to return to only one stack of venom indicates granting multiple unblockable attacks was, however, a concern for the balance team. I would separate the attack into a damage component with vulnerability and a component that grants stealth. It even makes sense with the name “Cloak and Dagger.” Make the stealth component unblockable. Keep the slowness of the dagger strike and the cost. This would be a larger, although not functional, change but I would like at least to test it out to see if it becomes overpowered.
I feel like PvE and sPvP balance matter “more” to Anet than WvW. Mainly because WvW is hard to balance given the possibility of 30+ vs 10, or 50 v 50, etc.
They have said they will be watching the sPvP seasonal adjustments and then possibly integrating those changes into other game modes. It seems likely that if, for example, the torment adjustment of P/D 3 isn’t overpowered that it will be carried into PvE and WvW as well.
I often use P/D 3 when people are running away because it is much faster than a CnD + SA combo. Torment is a great “finisher” because if people are panicked and trying to get distance they are invariably going to take more damage. Similarly confusion is great when someone has just taken a lot of damage and are flustered, trying to spam skills.
OH dagger isn’t the worst thing in the world. Obviously the biggest difficulty is that it can be blocked/invulned in addition to positioning and dodging as a way to avoid letting the thief gain stealth.
That said, I’ve been using it successfully in WvW and sPvP matches (more recently) so saying it can’t work is not accurate.
If you are aiming for PvP “viability” there are plenty of options. Knowing how to play—the game as a whole, the pvp map mechanics, the class, and the weapon set you are using—will ultimately be most important in making you viable.
If you want, you can add me to your friends list and message me in game. I’d be willing to help you learn the class if you are interested.
Given that I’m already running P/D in spvp, and intend to take my build into Season 5, I’m extremely happy about the proposed buff.
On the other hand there are some nice downwards adjustments on other classes healing (through heal contribution swaps) that will make thief overall more viable imo.
More torment on P/D…
I am happy.
I’ve been thinking about this since I got a question earlier from a random person I played against in pvp. They wanted tips on how to get better at playing thief. So I taught them teleport stomp and some of the pros/cons of some weapon sets. I also told them that knowing when you need to pull back and disengage is part of being a good thief. And a little about the uses for stolen skills.
Straegen is right that counterplay is always a part of being a good player. Still that isn’t always clearly “a part of” a particular build. Knowing, for example, to dodge out of warriors burst skills to avoid annoying regeneration is not exactly tied to one or another build.
Skill is based more on what you are fighting and what tools you have to fight it with. For that matter, the builds requiring the most skill to play are inevitably going to be the worst builds—because winning with a bad build requires more skill assuming equal skill with your opponent.
More accurately, I think we could rate the weapon sets with the most potential in terms of damage, defense, and utility. Each category gets its’ own point rating. You also give points based on the utilities and traits chosen.
Damage number should be based on the total maximum damage possible over 10 seconds. Defense should be a counter of block/evade/invuln abilities available (irrespective of energy/initiative costs) with 3 points for invuln, 2 points for evade, and 1 point for blocks/reflects. For utility the same point system would apply. Boons applied/stolen/corrupted are worth 1 point per. Condition removal is 1 point per. Stun/daze is worth 1 point. Teleports and stealth are worth 1 point. Self generated field combinations are worth 1 point per combo.
It needs some refining but that is how I would go about determining roughly which requires the most “skill” while still being useful.
Those refer to specialization lines.
Most thieves can scout due to mobility so taking a few extra mobility abilities will make you an above average scout.
Mobility is key for roaming. Druid and thief have strong mobility. Also depends on what class you enjoy playing. There are roaming tricks and setups for most classes. Mesmer does roaming pretty well, power or condi can both work really well.
Which class would you like to roam with? We might be able to offer advice or builds based on that.
250-300 ms might be doable. Try it and see.
Balance in this game is hard because a buff to one thing will buff all weapon sets that use that thing. D/P is not the only viable weapon set in the game but it is a strong weapon set for a lot of reasons. So when we talk about buffing Sword, a lot of discussion goes into the Sword autoattack/stealth attack and sword 3 because that can be separated from D/P.
Balance is also hard because some sets underperform relative to the classes we are fighting against. Back when eles had diamondskin that granted immunity, eles that invested into healing were effectively immune to condition builds.
A lot of thief “power” is carried by relatively few abilities. Some of our abilities need to be toned down in exchange for buffs to improve thief diversity. A lot of naysaying “they will only nerf and never buff” ignores the large buffs to autoattack damage that were handed out recently. We can and should demand change that adjusts our abilities. Only demanding buffs is what will not be listened to. Asking for a combination of nerfs and buffs to the same weapon sets will have a better shot of being realistically considered.
Thieves need:
1) Buff to stealth attacks generally, more for some sets than others. Nerfs where appropriate to balance out increases to stealth attack damage. This would be less of a nerf and more of a shift in damage to more skilled play.
2) Adjustments to Sword abilities to make them flow better (lower animation aftercast). This is to help buff the sword without making it a generic “just as good as dagger.” It doesn’t have to be as good or better than D/P, just closer.
3) Reductions in perma evade staff and D/D builds. Daredevil heal combined with a few other traits gives too much endurance. Combined with the natural evade built into the weapon skills there is now effectively too much evade on the class for a healthy game. On evade condi clear becomes a problem when a player can evade almost continuously. These builds should be able to dodge a lot, don’t get me wrong, just not quite as much as they are able to do now.
4) Increases to shortbow poison field duration. This is to help players make combos with the field more than anything else. It rewards smart play and doesn’t increase damage significantly for a weapon set that is mostly utility in any case.
On the other hand you can use the stolen skill to reflect while they have the rifle out.
To be fair though, I’ve reflected a gunflame like that and it does faaaar less damage to the warrior than it would have done to me.
So this is one example of running Rending Shade in sPvP.
That depends on a lot of factors. One is whether the opponent is using an average amount of condition cleanses. If they don’t have any cleanse then a player stacking conditions on them will achieve potentially superior results regardless. For a power comparison situation, this would be like facetanking a berserker 1k blades.
“Full DPS condi” is also a bit of a misnomer, because a pure hybrid of Power/Condition Damage/Precision is the equivalent of zerker for pure power. So the highest DPS “condi” builds actually do significant power damage as well.
Most condition damage builds are likely to take lower damage output, although the same condition output, and use vitality stat in exchange for precision. Those still do decent power damage, but don’t crit a lot so the damage isn’t as powerful as a full zerk power build.
Babaz, I agree you can do those things, I do them myself all the time. But the point is that taking that and escapist’s absolution will often result, with another traited cleanse, in a huge amount of condition cleanse.
If I am dueling a condition player, I can take Shadow’s Embrace in addition and be highly immune to conditions. Immunity is something I both enjoy and understand is frustrating to fight against.
Not sure most thieves with a low HP pool and armor would agree with you.
I agree that Escapist’s Absolution is overpowered—much like diamond skin was—but that applies to most Elite Specs these days. Druids clearing 13 conditions on even a 15 second cooldown is huge in combination with healing.