Guild Wars 2

My signature has a build for P/D assuming you buy HoT…which you should probably do. Core can work but will run into problems competitively.

With venoms it is a remarkable build with strong range pressure. Not meta but that really doesn’t mean much. I beat meta thieves all the time.

You asked so I’ll explain. I’m sure there are other SA theory crafted builds out there that benefit in different ways but this is my perspective at least.

P/D, as a condi build, uses stealth attacks to stack bleeds and also defensively to break target. The auto attack damage is “ok” but if you want to kill things having stealth and then stealth attacking are imperative. It is important to note that a ranged main hand will not always be near to a target and therefore won’t always be able to rely on CnD to gain stealth.

Looking to sources of stealth, Hide in Shadows has a long cooldown, but provides condi clear and stealth. This makes it ideal for both defense and damage in this set as long as the cooldown issue is addressed. SA has the cooldown reduction needed. As a bonus this also makes Shadowstep, a “must have” for many thieves, 40 seconds (30 seconds after the return ability expires).

P/D also doesn’t need to use CnD directly for damage. This makes gaining stealth upon steal an attractive option rather than a steal CnD combo. All stealth lasts for 1 second longer and this also helps you when you Sneak Attack at random moments over the slightly longer period. The defensive buff in stealth is nice as well for what it’s worth.

The addition of Rending Shade turns my frequent Sneak Attacks into boon stealing attacks. This let’s me strip stability, protection, regeneration, and resistance. Warriors get shorter periods of resistance and boon heavy classes in general can’t rely on them as much. This trait is very powerful if you are using stealth attacks frequently.

The rest of the build isn’t SA specific so I won’t go into that. The main point is that stealth attacks still matter for my build and SA helps quite a bit in that category both by improving access and the quality of the attacks via Rending Shade.

Dagger mainland will probably do the most damage.

With an offhand pistol you can use Shadow Shot to great effect dps wise. Individual strike damage will probably favor backstab…but maybe not the dps overall.

Turk.5460:

saerni.2584:

Nerf stealth stacking, problem solved. Leave traps alone because you would ruin an entire set of legit builds just to get at Ghost Thieves.

Honestly, everyone is talking past one another here. People are acting like their way is the only way to nerf ghost thieves. All baba did was try to point out how heavy handed the suggestions are and to point out the most limited nerf needed to achieve the goal.

Only ghost thieves need to perma stealth stack via D/P. Get rid of that ability and you don’t touch any other builds. The traps aren’t OP, so don’t touch them, simple.

Its not the only way to nerf ghost thieves, but it definitely is the most logical. Being in stealth to reposition, escape, or just take a breather and read your opponent is a major part of thieves core design.

Why are you so anti-stealth stacking?
I’m going to go out on a whim here and guess that your preferred build can’t stay in stealth as long as other thieves, and you often lose to other thieves 1v1, therefore you must call for a nerf to your personal counter so your preferred build gets more of an advantage in certain scenarios.

I actually didn’t call for removing stealth stacking I called for nerfing it. Slightly. So it doesn’t allow permanent stealth. I’m all for letting people get stealth for extended periods of time.

Well, yes, you could buff thief traps in exchange for making them reveal. That is a larger game design change because they already removed the power damage component a while back to let these traps do that.

Nerf stealth stacking, problem solved. Leave traps alone because you would ruin an entire set of legit builds just to get at Ghost Thieves.

Honestly, everyone is talking past one another here. People are acting like their way is the only way to nerf ghost thieves. All baba did was try to point out how heavy handed the suggestions are and to point out the most limited nerf needed to achieve the goal.

Only ghost thieves need to perma stealth stack via D/P. Get rid of that ability and you don’t touch any other builds. The traps aren’t OP, so don’t touch them, simple.

So are you interested in the build or just name calling? Your choice, because frankly I don’t have time to entertain your petty attitude.

1) Conditions are meant to kill you. Most builds will not be 100% immune to conditions in all circumstances.

2) One rotation of condi abilities will generally not do that much damage per second. If you wait until they have hit with several rotations, or until they have finished their burst (utilities and specials that spike the condi more than usual from weapon skills) then the cleanse timer becomes far more reasonable. The key to cleanse is knowing when you need to cleanse. This could be called “learn to play” but it also just means “don’t panic” when you see conditions on your bar.

3) Warrior has access to resistance, cleanse on burst, cleanse on utility. Regular cleanses should be handling most of your issues. Resistance should supplement when your cleanses are on cooldown.

4) Resistance is a strong boon but it is limited by the ability to corrupt it or steal it or negate it. It is generally a short duration boon as well. Warriors have immunity abilities and have had them before resistance was a thing. At least boons can be corrupted and stolen. This opens up counterplay that wasn’t there before.

5) Epidemic against players who rely on resistance and turning that against their group is brilliant. It makes groups that group cleanse superior to groups that just say “bring your own condi clear” and let people decide whether resistance is enough without more cleanses. I like the idea of a skill that forces players to not just think selfishly about their own protection (resistance) and take more cleanse or coordinate group cleanse in response. That is more dynamic and requires more flexibility.

6) A better “tell” on epidemic might be appropriate given the potential power of the ability. This would also give less coordinated groups a chance to respond and avoid the epidemic even without working out a cleanse method in advance.

I’ve run P/D condi in both and find it effective with venoms.

Basically Dire and trailblazer stats, krait runes, and digits for bleed and poison duration. You can run venoms or other condi utilities.

Build is in my signature

P/P is ranged pressure. I liked the option of ricochet back when it was around, but now I’m not sure I would take it. I like single target focus and with projectile hate I like to know where my shots are flying.

I wouldn’t baseline it is what I’m saying.

Lol, it’s hardly suboptimal. But you probably don’t care to understand the theory crafting or build so I’ll just leave it there.

I’d love to see a proper team pairing venoms and epidemic with maybe a condi mesmer…but I don’t think I’ve seen that so far. I have seen plenty of condi necros, but none that used venomshare to any great effect.

I would totally be interested if someone wants to put that comp together.

It’s already pretty one sided if your whole team is standing at mid and you are the only one rotating.

Pets attack slower and differently from people so even with a lot of venom stacks the result won’t always be so good.

I don’t want to downplay that I think venoms are effective—they are and I use them in spvp. What I want to challenge is the notion that venomsharing somehow obliterates the opposing team without much effort. In most situations venom sharing provides a nice boost in dps and cover conditions.

The one situation you describe where one person waddles into mid against 4 players with venoms shared to them, is hit by all the damaging venoms (24 stacks of poison, 16 stacks of torment, 16 stacks of vuln) and dies to them along with the damage of the people who applied them is working as intended. It also isn’t unbalanced, because it took getting hit a lot of times from a lot of sources to add up to the full condition potential of the venom.

The thought was to place this thief on a point and contest it. In sPvP the node closest to the team’s base, their “home,” is usually only decapped because the team respawns and can then win a fight if you try to hold it—because if your team dies they have farther to run back to rejoin the fight.

I’d only use the P/P aspect for ranged pressure if someone ended up being off point and I needed to apply damage but wanted to stay on point. I’m not sure about this of course I may end up changing my mind, but in any case that was my initial thought process.

Adding in a source of initiative regeneration is good…I might have to consider the other options if initiative becomes a problem.

Actually, as someone who shares venoms in spvp the results aren’t nearly as powerful as you expect. The best results are sharing with two others when you come in to +1 and all of you focus down a target.

I’ve sent a full 4 people with venoms into mid and it didn’t have a huge impact. Partly because people don’t focus their fire, partly because people waste their attacks on a blocking target or on projectiles where there is something preventing those from hitting.

It was hardly a “let the team carry” use of the cooldowns because you, as a thief, have other things to do besides sit on mid and throw out a few easily negated damage buffs to your allies. When you do add damage that way it makes a condi +1 thief more viable, but usually just on a single target, if the target is being properly focused. At best, on smaller maps, a thief may be able to get all the team covered with venomshare on the initial move to mid. But that won’t happen for the entire rest of the match because people will be spread out and again the thief will need to be doing what thief does best (rather than sitting around at mid getting shot at).

I think triple heal on hit/crit/initiative spend would be better for sustain…but I worry about the damage and the sustain being redundant. This build would be dodging quite often and so the healing needs to be consistent but not overwhelming imo. I still need to test this because my job takes up more of my time these days and I have less time to play during the week.

I threw in distracting daggers because I wanted to have a solid interrupt on my bar while fighting in melee range with the daggers. You might be right though that the extra initiative would be helpful where I’m not stealing and regaining initiative. Swapping to P/P for interrupts might not be terrible and the smoke powder with the dodge is a blind combo…so might have to see how that works in practice.

Part of why I wanted to develop this build was because so many builds “require” trickery. I like the extra initiative, but if you look at a sustain build it is more about the regeneration of initiative than the total pool available. It may not play like a traditional thief would but that gets us outside the meta box.

I use SA in my very much not a troll build.

WvW isn’t the best place to brag about beating people 1v1…the skill range is dramatic and people aren’t always running the best builds or equipment even.

That said welcome and have fun with it

Ghost thieves often run a core build. Core builds have a more limited number of dodges. Also, I can’t speak to every class vs this thief. Every class may or may not have a counter depending on a lot of factors. My only ability to comment is based on a general understanding of playing thief and fighting thieves. 20k disappears quite quickly without protection. Many attacks hit for 5-10k even with 3k armor. And unlike a Daredevil the hp regen won’t be that high either.

Sure a ghost thief can run away quickly with short bow but only if they no longer are in stealth to do it. At that point you are complaining about an entirely different thing, thief mobility. Stealth stacking by blinding powder is why this build works more than anything else. People should focus on the duration of blinding powder if they really want to insist on a targeted nerf to this build. But that would need D/P and make lots of thieves very unhappy who are not ghost players.

20k ish HP for full dire. Less if they run some trailblazers or other set.

Once they are forced out of stealth they will be burning initiative to regain it. You just need to interrupt their leap and force BP to expire to make them stay visible. Drop AoE traps on top of yourself and then more AoE on the BP if they are in stealth.

The deceptive thing about damage is that it counts even if it gets healed. So a person constantly in a gridlock battle with another decent dps tank can build up a lot of damage over the match and not get that many kills.

Say we assume every 20k-ish damage is an ideal kill with the other side getting some healing back but losing the fight. So 300k is about 15 ideal kills. In a match with 750k to 14 kills it suggests the opponents were able to heal or revive a little more than a full HP in the average kill.

Obviously this number changes a lot with the enemy team comp. I’d be curious what the average HP of the opposing team was so we could figure out the overall efficiency with a higher degree of accuracy.

Those caps are way too low and ignore why they removed the caps that had been in place. Some singular skills apply 5 stacks of bleed. The original cap of 25 was removed because it was unfair to artificially cap multiple condi users but not multiple power users.

My build has, by way of example, the ability to stack about 17 bleeds at any given time. This isn’t a huge portion of my damage because bleed is a fairly low multiplier for condi damage unlike say burn. Two of me could stack up to 35 bleeds but if you cap that at 25 it is like each of me only stacked 12.5 bleeds. That cap makes my contribution to damage lower than if I was solo.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQRAoY6an8MBFOhNmCGmCkmildCbLAUbaTzLwH4Es7tEn+BA-TZxGABAcCAS4hA0x+DGcEAsvMAA

Format: sPvP

Technique: Evade and strike your foes with numerous attacks. Your attacks heal you and allow you to sustain all while dealing out sustained power damage. You have several stun breaks and numerous condi clears. Pressure enemies with interrupts and autoattack damage.

Tactics: Dedicated to harassing far node and providing direct fire support using P/P for ranged burst.

*Note this build is entirely theory and needs to be tested. Opinions welcome. It’s also sPvP so feel free to try it out and provide feedback that way too.

So do you think the transfer is OP? I know very little about Rev cleanse in general so I imagine moderate condi is a problem for Rev based on prior experience fighting Rev only (p/d condi boonstrip build).

I think perma evade is a problem that applies to power builds (like staff) as well as condi (d/d). I wouldn’t say condi is itself the isssue. Obviously they reduced some endurance regen from thief so anet seems to be moving towards limiting perma dodge anyways. But again that doesn’t make condi a problem just the evades.

How it works in gw1 doesn’t matter to me to be honest. I also don’t see how “it’s not like gw1” is an explanation for how it is skillless.

Cleanse isn’t about eliminating condition damage. It’s about reducing it.

Your comment about burning might be worth exploring though given it was supposed to last short durations with stacking and now is much longer duration with stacking. Is burn OP though…I’m not so sure.

Not really, it shows up as an animation and on their bar. Besides that guards don’t spit out that much AoE aegis. It can be a problem to be fair but it doesn’t negate the use of CnD into irrelevance.

What are you running duke? And is it just condi necro or are other classes at issue?

Keeping up some condi sure, but not ALL of the condi burst which is what kills people.

Perma stealth cannot maintain lethal levels of condi damage. That’s why all the stronger condi builds for thief involve being visable and using weapon skills to apply most of their damage.

For those that didn’t see it in the patch notes comment and answer thread, the developers have recently confirmed the following:

1) They are happy with the cooldown and have no intent to change it

2) The cooldown was added in order to add an opportunity cost to stealth attacks because they don’t use initiative.

You are talking about specific builds and not condi as a whole. I’m all for individual balance where adjustments need to be made.

Traps aren’t the problem though. Permanent stealth may be but not the traps. Think about how much DH traps do and thief traps look fairly tame in comparison.

Maybe they will eventually get rid of stealth stacking, but that will be because thief traps are finally a real threat and not something only newer players die to. They want traps to be viable and adding direct damage back onto them would make them far less so.

Condi isn’t “skillless” it just isn’t instant. Power does damage instantly and condi over time. Condi risks a cleanse and doing no damage even after landing an attack.

And anet is not removing a fundamental game mechanic because you don’t understand it. Sorry.

2-3 power builds roaming can jump on you before you know it and gank you. I just point this out to people who think anet should balance the game so they don’t die to 3v1 situations. Like, I understand the frustration as a person who has fought numerous ghost thieves.

What I don’t understand is why you were standing still long enough for their group to set up a takedown. OP claims cleanse didn’t work. That seems unlikely. Even if you only cleansed some of the condi it cuts the dps significantly. That gives you time to heal and cleanse again.

Some tips. There are puffs of smoke where they place traps. Dodge through and trigger them and they have zero effect. They spend 80-90% of their time stacking stealth. Try to move away during this period and they will have even less condi application per second as they have to chase you and stack stealth again. Stay mobile in general and try to disrupt their stealth stacking with AoE stun or knockdown on the black powder fields. Try to anticipate when their burst is on refresh and block just as they start their first condi application (multiple abilities in these builds are blockable).

I meant more where there are pets and other targets around that make it easy. Some people will have aegis and others won’t so I target those for CnD and then continue with my attacks. I admit this takes a chunk out of your damage running power, but the heartseeker black powder combo doesn’t really do damage either so I would really care unless I felt that everything I do to survive also needs to do strong damage.

CiS is what I used to run. Now I find Rending Shade far superior as it cuts through boon spam nicely. Resistance is more easily dealt with and protection/regen also get removed so everyone is doing more damage to the target because of you.

Obviously they disagree given that they buffed the traps.

It should scale with the thieves healing power. Just like venoms that do condi scale with condi damage of the thief.

I land CnD all the time in spvp. The issue isn’t landing the skill so much as knowing how to use it.

D/P smoke field combo requires a clear field to pull off consistently. CnD thrives in target rich environments. D/P can stealth stack more effectively but CnD requires less initiative in order to gain stealth and is more rapid in doing so especially when CnD is precast.

The set suffers from a lack of cc besides cripple. It does have the evade on D/D 3 so it isn’t completely defenseless in close range combat. Id say it is an undervalued rather than underpowered set.

Pre cast CnD and then getting to where it will hit is the “skill” specific to X/D builds. Takes a lot of practice to get fluid with it imo.

Support for thief is often though venoms. SA lets you res and prevent a stomp making it valuable for support roles. Pure support may not be “viable” in the sense that people still expect a thief to do thief things in the game mode they are in. Providing AoE buffs is less useful because other classes fulfill that role. Poison field from short bow can be blasted for AoE weakness and provides the -33% healing debuff so SB can be a solid support choice.

Stealth in general is very useful as a support and lets you pve-wise save your team from failing. Or in PvP you can blast smoke fields for AoE stealth to get off a first strike advantage.

Thief is often “supposed” to “make plays.” In sPvP this means you need to use your mobility to always be where your team needs to be in order to take an advantage over the other team.

The classic example – decap on far. Nothing destroys an enemy teams sense of the map like constantly pressuring their home node. You shouldn’t try to contest it if they are standing on it though, you may be able to win the 1v1 but respawns will quickly negate the advantage of fully capturing it. You can always circle back and decap once they leave.

Classic +1. This is a bit of a misnomer because any team fight with you tipping the balance is “1” but you won’t be as effective. You are best in turning 1v1s into 2v1 to turn a losing fight into a winning fight or speeding up the process. You should not be the only person defending your home node so often you will want to be there if the other team is trying to 1v1 and prevent your your team from holding home. Mid fights are tricky because you want to limit your exposure to AoE while also supporting your team. If you can help at mid while passing through it can be worth it, especially if both sides have downs and you can really tip the balance in your favor.

Classic map control. Every map has its mechanics that depend most on mobility to take advantage of. You can more easily keep an eye on timers and be at the right spot at the right time. On Temple for example I was once positioned to take Tranquility right as it spawned. The announcement it had spawned had barely finished when I took it. Or on Forest the creatures can add up if you just know when to grab them (or steal them).

All of this can change as to what you are doing depending on your team. Good luck!

Most responses to EA I’ve seen are “apply condi and stop attacking.” Chain dodges can otherwise completely negate condi damage on a Daredevil. In team fights Daredevils will often not due to condi if they take this trait because many attacks are flying around for them to evade.

It’s not OP but it does have a clear advantage unless countered (ironically by not attacking). SoA is good because it means more thieves will gamble and not take EA. This makes thief far less annoying for me to fight.

Ghost thief burst takes a few seconds to build up applications. Wait for half a tick and then clear the condi. Their cool downs will be high enough to prevent easy reapplication. If blink is up you can also avoid them entirely.

Also my hint is to watch the ground. There is a puff of smoke when they place a trap if they are not trying to just drop them right on top of you. If you see a trap dodge through it. Thief traps are single trigger unlike with DH so you can dodge once to avoid the full effect. Stay mobile and if you see a red circle move away from it to force them to chase you. They need to restealth often enough that you can frustrate them if you just keep on moving.

How many condi can you clear instantly/on demand?

What are you running?

Ghost thief is an underperforming build. Even with the patch I doubt that will change.

Adding in condi removal on the signet is certainly a buff. It also makes thieves more likely to forgo other condi clear in favor of maximum damage. I’d wait to see how the buff plays out in practice before making sweeping judgments about it.

I’ll need to do some testing and obviously the balance changes are more about other classes but…here are my initial thoughts on the thief changes. As a thief running SA/Trickery/DD with P/D and venoms I was glad to see some minor buffs. I should note that in sPvP I run Deadshot amulet for the condi duration bonus.

The sPvP increase to immobilize base duration is probably the most important change. Immobilize on demand is powerful but at 1 second it wasn’t too great combined with the projectile speed. This might make it more useful without needing to spam it so much. Again and again I see the sPvP team making more interesting balance changes—like the Shadow Strike change previously. (Although I wish they had decided on making that change baseline across game modes in this patch).

Adding more vulnerability (slightly) on Cloak and Dagger is a smaller buff. I don’t think it will have any significant impact but I’ll reserve judgment for now. The skill isn’t fundamentally stronger although I use it often enough that it may prove a consistent 2% damage bonus.

I will also say that I approve of the slight reduction in thief endurance regeneration ability. If thief builds for it the same perma evade will probably still work though. Between acro and daredevil there is a lot of endurance regeneration available—and plenty of weapon skills that evade as well.

Lastly, I approve of the buff to core thief condi clear in exchange for the reduction in endurance regeneration. It will make more core builds viable and open up some builds in Daredevil that won’t need to use EA as much.

Did the caltrops from Uncatchable get buffed? Or just the utility skill?

No, I meant they took a few dodges off thief overall. Then compensated in a ability many were already taking.