Sounds like a lack of communication. Far and home is viable but you have to agree with your team that that is the plan. Otherwise…it gets messy.
Jay, no one cares how good you say you are. If your measure of what matters excludes 90% of players you literally don’t have an argument.
This isn’t a masculinity contest over who has beat more people according to themselves on the internet. I have better things to do with my time. You may well be a good player, but I doubt condi d/d is a problem for you. Or for the majority of players who know what they are doing.
I get being challenged by this build. But that doesn’t make it op. I’ve fought this build and I’m not worried. If you are so much more skilled than me you shouldn’t have issues either.
And I submit that your standards are arbitrary and capricious. You have raised your standard of who can provide a valid opinion so high as to exclude the majority of players, likely excluding yourself.
Ironically, in attempting to show me up you have revealed the complete lack of intellectual integrity your argument has.
No that doesn’t exclude me. If I’m not plat or higher at this exact moment I’m within like 2 points (rank 100 ish lol). I also play a rev build nobody else in game plays that is actually not even good but I make it work obviously… As solo q btw(big point). You’re probably not quite sure how that distinguishes me from others but I won’t waste time explaining lol.
You aren’t addressing my argument. If a gold level player, who is above the average player ranking, is saying this build isn’t common or effective…then your argument is substantially weaker.
Say someone says “thief op” because a top 10 thief player beat them utterly. That isn’t really all that convincing because that player is much better, overall, at the actual game. That doesn’t make thief op because a really good player can use it to beat them.
Likewise, if you think this build is op, while ignoring the mid-high level players who never have issues with this build, only focusing on the bottom players who struggle with class mechanics and the top players who have reflexes and ability well above 90% of players, your argument lacks significant merit.
A lack of skill will usually result in loss. A large amount of skill will usually result in victory. The middle is where “op” actually has credible meaning. And throwing out gold opinions because you view yourself as really a platinum player…is questionable at best.
And I submit that your standards are arbitrary and capricious. You have raised your standard of who can provide a valid opinion so high as to exclude the majority of players, likely excluding yourself.
Ironically, in attempting to show me up you have revealed the complete lack of intellectual integrity your argument has.
You said gold, I’m in gold. Dont pretend you know better unless you are changing your standard to platinum.
I have never seen a d/d thief (condi) carry a match in NA.
Also, speaking on OPness generally: rev is not OP. Rev played by Rarnarrk is very tough. Saying a top player can make a class work extremely well isn’t a good measure for the average player.
I like fighting thieves because the mechanics usually result in more intense fights. Warriors too when you are fighting a mace – zerker are dancing on thin ice, very little room for error.
Less fun are the ones that can bunker like ele or DH for an extended period of time and take the intensity out of the fight. Sure, maybe I can kill them eventually but they risk much less with constant healing (plenty of full hp resets).
No power vault spam :p Rise was the guild.
Other thief was D/P sadness.
Fought a vault spam thief the other day. He was on a double thief team but the other thief was…bad mechanically.
It required…effort. The key was staying mobile. Once he lost his initiative he lacked a lot of his closing power.
I run venoms, so I forced his first cleanse and then loaded him up a second time and he dropped fairly quickly. This was a duel after the match was over. The final moments were touch and go though. He had some serious damage and came close to downing me towards the end.
Ranged tends to win out I think over evade builds just because, despite all the evades, they are very melee range oriented.
If people want to they can chat now with a little effort. Might as well remove a limitation that really doesn’t prevent salty comments.
A fair point, so make that 4200 range.
On a more serious note, speed of your character is more important than weapon range.
Im one of the faster thieves out there. I take standard sb and shadow step but I also take the cool down reduction in SA so my cooldown on Shadowstep is 40. I also can get super speed if I’m in stealth. This advantage is more than enough to make 900 range on my pistol sufficient.
The only way thief can get superspeed (100 percent normal) is via trapper runes and traps.
Are you sure this not Hidden thief (50 percent speed added to normal). ?
Ah, my mistake. I don’t use super speed so I thought it was a 50% bonus like SA provides. Either way I’m faster :-p
A fair point, so make that 4200 range.
On a more serious note, speed of your character is more important than weapon range.
Im one of the faster thieves out there. I take standard sb and shadow step but I also take the cool down reduction in SA so my cooldown on Shadowstep is 40. I also can get super speed if I’m in stealth. This advantage is more than enough to make 900 range on my pistol sufficient.
Thief with steal, shadowstep and shadow shot (or a ranged attack) can hit from 3300 range.
I’d suggest making a spvp arena (for the skill set difference and ability to let new players change builds.
We could use a perma Colleseum map for example.
Is that a guild hall arena or a spvp arena?
If we need to set up a spvp space (NA) I can help contribute in some way.
One on one mentoring is pretty effective, I find, for practicing. We could also advertise it both as a “learn how to thief” and a “learn how to fight thief” so we can train people who think thief is OP about how to fight and get better in general (and maybe to try thief themselves).
Agreed, there are good thieves that don’t stream. Anyone who plays thief at a relatively high level deserves some kudos for putting up with constant abuse for playing the class.
Have you really thought this Fully through.. ?
No, why would he have done that?
Components break, hardware reacts in strange ways. My windows update produced some strange interactions with the game which screwed me up for a while.
I play P/D, so the same issues with landing CnD are something I’m very familiar with. I also have played D/D and D/P extensively enough to understand the melee range interactions.
The stuff I see in your video, as far as the moment when CnD would do its “strike” don’t suggest bugged hit boxes. They suggest, at most, bugged interactions with movement controls. You clearly should miss, given your end positioning, but as I’ve said that may be a result of a bug.
Or that could be the result of a strange software/hardware bug that I’m not aware of. I’ve had them happen to me, such that I’ve had to literally disable features of windows using the command line, in order to get my game functioning normally again.
That’s not really specific to venoms though.
For venoms the key is sharing to the most people, periodically, to maximize total damage output.
Of course, in PvE you might need to swap to cc venoms to take out a breakbar rather than try to increase your personal damage for the encounter.
Have you considered the possibility that your computer hardware is the thing at fault? Others, myself included, don’t seem to be having the same problems. It seems more than likely that your hardware may be the source of some of your control issues.
I’m not saying you aren’t bugged, if that’s what you mean. The first was a comment on timing which may involve skill latency. The second involves movement controls, which may also be bugged.
Your issue is twofold as I see it.
1) You tend to not precast CnD soon enough so you run through the creature before your dagger actually strikes.
2) You tend to turn your character away from your target after you cast. If you take your fingers off movement keys, hitting CnD will reorient you so you are facing the right direction. Conversely, if you are aimed the wrong way when you start CnD you can reorient yourself using the manual controls to face the right way in time for the attack to hit.
However, you are starting CnD in the right direction and swerving away from them before the strike connects. This says to me that your control input is causing your character to swerve, whether or not that is caused by you or a bug.
I’m willing to run events, generally, or specific trainings.
I enjoy teaching people thief mechanics so I’m always open to that or teaching people about P/D more specifically.
Lol Kash, if Anet balanced the game by removing all things people complain about on forums the game would be shut down tomorrow. :-P
Without visible class specific mmr it is hard to tell if someone is better or worse with a class than you are.
If we could see the specific mmr and a volatility rating for that mmr it would go a long way to solving the “who should swap” question.
A good anti thief team will try to lock down home/mid with a bunker who can at least partly cover both home and mid. That reduces the ability of the enemy thief to decap and forces the thief into more group fights.
Some builds can handle group fights, but others a lot less. If the thief can’t do both then they become a liability against the non-thief team.
Thief might be able in that situation to +1 take down the home camping bunker. Depends a lot on the circumstances in the match really.
Who do I need to talk to about rank changes? I want a shiny title :-p
More seriously, if the guild needs a few coins I might be able to throw some the guilds way.
Not so much nerfed, but I would move some of the damage increase from auto attack into other attacks.
There is a need to make thief less about dropping down onto a target and auto attacking. That isn’t very involved and feels like pure power creep.
The standard gripe about HoT applies, but all the elites would need to be nerfed at the same time to keep the game balanced in a HoT vs HoT sense and not just in a HoT vs Core sense.
I’m posting this here because this is a gamewide proposal covering all game modes. It is more for WvW and PvP but also could apply to PvE. The impetus for this is because condition damage is hard to balance due to a wide distribution of cleanses and immunities between classes. I’m also a condition damage user, which helps me make suggestions that aren’t based on irrational hatred of condition damage or a misunderstanding of previous balance options. That said, this is not a nerf thread. This is also not a buff thread. This is a core balance thread for condition damage to address frustrations on both sides.
Condition cleanse, or lack thereof, either mean a person deals incredible damage—albeit over time—or almost none. Timing of cleanse is “skill” but the ability to “cover” conditions is a way of frustrating even the most well intentioned build design (one that does take conditions into consideration). Even so, a condition user may find that an opponent can effective negate their damage to below that of average healing or regeneration. This isn’t, of course, every class in the game. Some will have less or more ability in this area. But the experience for the average player is often one of frustration—either because they died without being able to stop it or were unable to kill someone at all because the other player was effectively a bunker against conditon damage even with an otherwise dps build.
I propose that all generic and condi damage specific cleanses be removed from the game. In exchange, condition damage would be reduced in WvW and PvP (and incoming damage in PvE) on a build by build basis. Many condition builds aren’t viable now precisely because of a cleanse arms race to either spike people down with condi or cleanse regular application into meaninglessness. Some condition builds are therefore too viable despite cleanse. Balance here requires both buffs (by removing cleanse generally) and nerfs to subsequently over performing builds.
I would not touch soft cc specific cleanses, although that may be worth a balance thread on its own.
I generally agree with DeceiverX on that front. HoT could have introduced elite specs AND made an older traitline into an elite so that players would really be giving something up in exchange for taking the new traitline.
For thief, probably the best choice would have been Deadly Arts (rather than Trickery just because that line is necessary to initiative balancing in general). For Warrior, the Defense line would have made perfect sense as a tradeoff for Zerker.
We just need to make elite specs not do “extra” without a trade-off in exchange. This would rein in the power creep.
What makes the rev hard to master?
It is energy management? I’m still learning about energy and how it works, exactly.
Conversely, what about rev makes it strong? As in, what advantages does/can revenant have going into certain matchups?
So here is the story. Other day I was in a PvP match. I’m usually very strong against revenants. Less so since the patch made healer Rev more viable (i.e. People started playing more survivable stuff).
Anyways, this revenant destroyed my team. He was at that time ranked 14 on the leaderboard. He was recently ranked as high as 3rd. Now, obviously there is some skill involved here beyond your average player. Rarnarkk as I recall.
My hope is to learn a little about the class from people who run Rev at higher levels. I’ve rarely fought revenants at a high enough level to care to learn how they tick…but this fight convinced me to give it a go.
Many thanks in advance.
Yeah, main issue is how slow things like pistol whip are to wind up.
I hit the skill and wait...and wait...and wait. It’s way too slow to start and doesn’t do enough damage to compensate. Daggers do better dps but more than that the animation time for D/P is so much stronger.
I think set needs more tuning to be PvP viable...if someone has a viable build I’d love to see it.
The new version of paralyzation sigil will, at least from the latest suggestion, have a damage modifier in addition. The thought was also to make the stun match better duration wise with the skill animation time.
I agree the pistol whip is pretty clunky, but “maybe there is a way around that” was my hope. Mostly, Black Powder + Pistol Whip + Bound (for stealth access) and with the on demand ranged interrupt in a clutch.
My worry is that the initiative from dodging won’t be enough to make up for the loss from Trickery…but the need for more damage (given sword is slower) made me think otherwise. I’m also considering a quickness based strategy to improve the burst potential.
Toughness is helped by more vitality. First priority should be vitality and second should be toughness.
What kind of build?
This is a build that I’m looking to test for the upcoming changes to sigils in sPvP. Feel free to give feedback and let me know if you have experience with this kind of build.
I’m already in guild but making obligatory post here.
IGN: <Ryqual>
Thief Type: <Teacher>
Server: <Northern Shiverpeaks>
Experience with thief:
Been playing almost since release as a thief main in WvW. I have both condi and power thieves, but main P/D condi. I also play in spvp more recently.
Jana I think you’d find that many people in wvw don’t know how to play against condi. I’ve been doing spvp recently and people there know how to cleanse for the most part. I’ve been back to WvW and been shocked at how little cleanse gets run. It was faceroll only because they didn’t build against condi.
My spvp build, with more dps (adjusting for lower spvp stats), has a harder time on average than my WvW build solely because of cleanse management. I’ve killed the people who don’t run cleanse in both modes, and it is not a matter of dire (not available in spvp) vs not dire. What makes my dps go down from godly anihilation to squeaky toy is cleanse, 100%.
If I wanted to run more dps, I could, but I favor consistent lower dps with enough armor to survive being hit by a couple of people. That works better in WvW when roaming and needing to escape from adds.
When I get back home I can.
Yeah it is, I recently joined as well.
As baba pointed out, healing is for damage taken. Armor reduces power damage and cleanses reduce condition damage taken.
Personally, I’d make cleanse only work on soft cc conditions and reduce condition damage to compensate. That way the damage is actually reliable and people don’t act like taking less than optimal cleanse somehow makes conditions OP. It would at least, hopefully, reduce the whining and blatantly false statements on these forums every time the topic comes up.
Five times the defense? Hyperbole is strong today.
Here’s the thing, 1) conditions are meant to kill you and you are not meant to cleanse all conditions, 2) power damage with the crit stats is better in burst damage than condition damage, 3) condition users give up dps by running dire because other hybrid stat combinations offer both the condi damage AND power damage at the same time.
And pointing to individual skills, which may need balance work, is not the same as justifying all condition users having an armor set removed from the game.
Lol, the lack of balance is due to people not taking the cleanses they have the option to and then complaining when they die.
It would be like someone wearing zerk armor complaining about being one shot by power attacks.
The only way to “balance” condi vs power is to remove cleanse entirely and reduce condi damage to compensate. But then people will not need to make as many trade offs in their builds and the game will be oversimple for that reason.
Damage didn’t look that significant to me but the multiplier might be decent? Probably not though.
Condi is meant to kill you though. Just not as fast as power can. Cleanse isn’t an absolute defense nor should it be.
It’s like you haven’t heard of cleanse. There are plenty of passive cleanses too.
I’m disappointed they didn’t look at stealth stacking and nerfed traps in a way which will hurt non ghost thief builds.
I don’t run traps but I know people do use them…and this will serve to limit their use once again.
How does that reasoning not apply to other traps then? If traps must be laid and then activate after a delay, then why only apply this to thief traps and not universally?
This may shock you but no one here cares about other games and how they do it.
This game allows invisibility. This game also allows tracking for channeled abilities regardless of stealth. This might be in part because given the need for a target, certain non-AoE abilities would be unfairly disadvantaged against stealth users.
Yes, it is inconsistent. Properly, not tracking makes more sense. However, it would be difficult to balance. So unless you have a suggestion to that front there is nothing more to be said: unless you two want to continue bickering over “what other games do and don’t do.”