Father Time
Saint Fisticuffs
Hubris Pride
Angelicus Fistus
Tempus Fist
That’s not an argument. You admit that Anet does/should balance based on people actually using the games mechanics competently. I think competent people can fight venomshare.
It only does the huge damage numbers with four shares to people who are all hitting you with their own successful attacks. Once your in that position I’m not sure it’s fair to blame the venoms for finishing you off somewhat faster.
If even one other person takes a few of those hits you mitigate a lot of the danger. Add in two people, say in a 4v3 situation and it could be pretty low. Venoms are used up regardless of whether an attack works or not (evade, block, or hit). Two people dodging attacks probably negates all the venoms before they are even applied. Or you can force the enemy to spread out. Thief can’t share to the entire team if they are even slightly far from one another.
And S/D as I said, look where Infiltrators Strike originated and go there. Or shoot them with ranged pressure. Or teleport on them for a change. They aren’t invincible. The sooner you attack the better chance you have at winning.
So yes, get good :-p
Maybe this caused too many LoS issues with how tall the Asuran models are.
What about Asuran warriors on rifle? Same issue?
Ignore this post, you are only allowed to panic.
Especially if you are playing against me . .
please?
I’m fairly sure “fear is the mind killer” is an apt line here. :-p Here’s a mind set that I think aptly describes thief:
It’s not the build that kills you. Not at first. It’s the knowledge that you, powerful and mighty, are no longer the hunter but the hunted. As you struggle in vain to strike your enemy they dance around you effortlessly, picking you apart piece by piece. Vanishing into the ether the only glimpse of them is when you are under attack. They are always behind you, above you, beside you—never where you expect them to be. Suddenly, you see them for one final moment, as the finisher comes crashing down.
Let’s wait for PoF to judge how balanced everything is.
The build should be applying poison on steal so really it’s the same as before, but slightly stronger poison.
So if you could handle this kind of Lotus Thief (all those cover condis) before you can handle this build now.
This build works well when your enemy can’t put pressure on you. Once it starts blowing initiative and endurance on defenses it puts out a lot less damage. Similar to P/P in some respects. If you take the burst it will hurt a lot. If you can counter the burst and put pressure on the thief they will be forced to disengage or lose.
Venoms, venomshare and S/X builds with IS and DA traits (which add the poison) are three very different things.
Venoms are a way to supplement random attacks with a condition. This can turn a regular attack into a stronger attack. You can use it when other condition applying skills are on cool-down. This helps spread out the damage and maintain pressure after a cleanse.
Venomshare is, partly, a response to thief needing group utility for team fights. Extra damage if the thief is close enough to allies to provide a brief increase in damage. But, this damage is based on the number of people shared with. Six stacks of poison isn’t that much. Multiply that by four and you start to see lots of additional damage. To be fair I can see why a bunker would be annoyed, tanking 3-4 people, to find that the thief’s venoms bypassed his defenses and finished him off. But I can also say that if you expect to always tank 3-4 people focusing you…you have unreasonable expectations out your survival.
S/D I can speak for as much because I don’t play it. I think it isn’t the best condition build for thief and I find the teleport mechanic too predictable for most thieves to succeed on it. Once people get used to fighting S/D they will have many less problems with it. I suggest you work on that.
That’s not really a good argument. All builds have an difficulty to reward ratio. That reward, however, changes a lot when people don’t know how to fight a particular build because it is new.
You’re assuming that Anet should balance around an outsize reward that occurs only when they fight people who don’t know how to play—or choose not to take cleanse—and who are fighting a weapon set (sword mainhand) that until recently wasn’t common or even played. That isn’t balance. That is rewarding players who refuse to adapt.
As to your issue, where a condi thief took down your team but you could beat them. That is when you say, “I’ll focus on shutting down that thief.” It isn’t like you, platinum ranked thief, has no ability to refocus your efforts for maximum effect. If your team is dead no thief can solo the entire enemy team. So save your teammates. Carry them. Tell them they should take more cleanse in the future if they want to beat those kinds of builds (need more defense when you don’t understand what you’re fighting).
Jana is EU. I have an eu account. I’d be willing to test as well.
As to videos I’d make one. The mata has shifted so much recently I’ve been waiting for PoF to make one.
My version is slightly more obnoxious :-p
I’m debating about rifle (because fashion wars) but I’m leaning against it for mobility reasons.
I agree with what you’re saying babaz. I’d only add that luring can be more effective where people cleanse initially and then are chasing after you only to end up loading themselves up again because the trap caught them off guard.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blind
Once a single attack misses it goes away. Plus all the normal cleanse applies so it can be a very short lived condition. And an attack with multiple strikes will only miss on the first strike.
Blinding Powder pulses so they miss one attack every pulse they are hit with. However, if they are hit twice before they attack it still is only one attack that is missed (stacks duration).
Traps are best used as a secondary mechanic imo. A full trap thief would be ineffective.
Think about DH. A pure trap DH will not be as strong as a mix of traps and ranged DPS with support skills.
Same with thief traps. Using one in an unexpected way will add something to a build which is dangerous even without the traps. Because they aren’t persistent you need to distract your enemy so they forget where you left your trap. Then lure them into it.
So many balance patches and the mid season release of PoF somewhat negates the “meta” as being a particular set up. Many options will be viable as long as you can play the build competently and rotate correctly.
Khylo changed/broken. Skyhammer changed (not sure how far back we are going). Two new maps entirely with unique mechanics.
As far as gameplayits the same old:
Don’t overextend. Call your targets. Keep your points covered to prevent decaps. Decap your enemy’s points when possible. Kill your enemies. Know the value of map mechanics and use them when they are worth it. Keep map awareness. Revive your allies when safe to do so. Kill your opponents. Don’t die.
S/D relies on constant teleport to target. AoE, traps, wells, cleave etc.
Then use ranged attacks to pressure them. Wait for 8+ stacks of poison and then cleanse.
Stealth and counter attack (they require target).
All panic strike/potent poison do is make the DA line a good choice for both condi and power builds.
Revealed Malice should probably be reworked to say
“Gain Malice when reveal is applied.”
Malice should be able to be gained when Mark isn’t active. But if it isn’t active it should decay one for every two seconds. Losing a mark resets Malice. This way you can gain Malice from revealing yourself and then remark your target a moment later.
Any ranged build will benefit from not teleporting on steal.
It is a disadvantage insofar as teleport can be used to reposition. That said, stealth is better for repositioning and isn’t as predictable as a targeted teleport. Overall I prefer Mark to Steal for that reason.
Assuming rifle.
SC + Mark + CB + TRB + SC + CB.
Even just SC + Mark + CB + TRB + Shadow Bind + DJ is probably sufficient. If they live you get Perfectionist.
Oh I agree, meta isn’t the be all end all. I’ve been playing P/D as viable since almost the start of gw2. So many “historians” will tell me that isn’t possible because P/D wasn’t viable back then.
I just shrug and keep playing the game. They have their meta and I have mine.
The ten stacks is automatic (minor grandmaster trait). Name is Perfectionist.
You gain Malice three ways:
Passive (no attack) – slower
Active (with any attack) – medium speed
Special (on stealth attacks and other revealed from stealth moments if traited)
- Note: this also provides might x3
So you can mark target then hit them with a stealth attack. Now you have 2 Malice. Next you restealth and attack again. Now you probably have 4 Malice. Then you swap to regular attacks and gain last Malice a few seconds later.
It works the same if you trait for 7 max Malice because the cooldown in Malice gain is shorter.
So if you care to gain Malice faster you can trait for it and achieve it fairly quickly.
(edited by saerni.2584)
Leo, I think you can offer whatever advice you want. A newer player might find a new players insights more helpful than older players who don’t see why something isn’t easy.
That said, you are unmistakably wrong. Admitting that is not a judgment against you personally. It’s just a fact of life when arguing on the internet.
Warrost is, however, not on point. The point is that, for example, Steal Time is pretty solid ability. Three malice is a 60% duration increase for 3 seconds of slow and quickness. Quickness gives a deadeye (rifle or not) a decisive advantage over a slowed target. Slow is what consume plasma lacks. With traits this can also grant 10 might (300 power) or 200 power/precision while quickness is active generally. This means you can’t just compare it to the quickness you get from Consume Plasma because it is fundamentally stronger.
Who cares if aclarity isn’t what your getting? It’s much stronger in an attacking context than a generic consume plasma. The bonuses from Perfectionist will be automatically gained when Malice is maxed, which it often will be if your opponents aren’t all being insta-gibbed. Maybe consume plasma is better defensively, but that is context sensitive rather than an absolute rule.
- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed_Malice
- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Perfectionist
- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fire_for_Effect
- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deadeye%27s_Mark
At full Malice you receive:
- Fury (10s): 20% Critical Chance
- Might x10 (10s): +300 Power, +300 Condition Damage
- Protection (5s): -33% Incoming Damage
- Regen (10s): 1,300 Heal
- Swiftness (10s): 33% Movement Speed
- Vigor (10s): +50% Endurance Regeneration
And under Fire for Effect you can gain another 10 stacks of Might on using stolen skills. Further, most of the stolen skills apply useful boons like protection, aegis, resistance and quickness.
The Might is what makes it better than Consume Plasma. And it gives most of the core benefits regardless of who we are targeting. The Perfectionist boons don’t even require us to actually hit our target with our Mark. We can have the Mark blocked (no stolen skill) and still start generating Malice and ultimately get the Perfectionist boons.
I’ve seen rifle builds with higher dps than pistols.
Again, Deadeye doesn’t need to use rifle.
Malice helps power damage but isn’t a concern for condition variations. Malice can build up faster if you trait to gain malice on being revealed (aka doing a stealth attack or using DJ from stealth).
Deadeye has a lot of might stacking potential and other boons which make it preferable to Daredevil for achieving maximum potential burst (on all power and condi sets not just rifle).
New steal skills are, for the most part, not underwhelming if you build around using them.
Shadow Meld is everything an elite for a stealth focused class should be. Many stealth reliant builds that were harder for many people to play will now be more viable (think power D/D).
Once you get max malice you effectively get most of consume plasma for free. Every time you mark them and get max malice.
Like, if you survive long enough the payoff is much better than a single consume plasma.
I think Deadeye will find a place in the meta. Whether it will be dominant or less common remains to be seen.
Some thoughts:
- Malice builds up much faster if you build around stealth attacks.
- Like Daredevil, most competitive builds probably won’t use rifle as primary weapon anyways.
- Rifle is clunky at the moment but mostly that can be fixed with some minor changes. I’ll wait to see if they fix locking you into the kneel position.
- Condition builds for Deadeye are actually pretty strong. Both using and not using the rifle as part of the build.
- I think Deadeye is stronger than Daredevil.
Deadeye:
- Mark doesn’t need and shouldn’t have a cast time
- Steal Strength is underpowered compared to other stolen abilities (one stack of might lol)
- Sniper’s Cover seems to apply a lot of stealth for only 3 initiative. Should be higher and Cursed Bullet should be slightly better to compensate.
- Mark’s stolen abilities shouldn’t expire if the mark expires. You should be able to use it on whatever target or save it for later. Let us save up to 2 stolen skills.
Yeah, maybe a hybrid build could get more out of it?
The base damage increase is nice in concert with might stacking builds because it will hit decently hard regardless.
But that covers all condi builds. Confused why you specified S/D.
In any event just need to kite out of the Lotus Training range.
Condi on S/D has literally nothing to do with Daredevil.
It’s not that the poison was that much higher than on DD. It’s more that the mark provides more flexibility (with 1500 range and no teleport) and consistent access to boons.
Umm, Daredevil and Deadeye can’t be combined.
Applies to all weapons.
On pistol (condi stats) my power damage went from 450 to nearly 700 with Malice built up to full.
Malice builds up quickly on pistol.
For me a Sneak Attack and a few extra shots is enough to increase the duration decently.
FYI the combo of the stolen skill off ranger with Panic Strike and Potent Poison gives Superspeed, Immobilize and two stacks of poison.
The new stolen skills increase in duration per malice.
There are also traits that improve them, such as 10 stacks of might upon using them at 600+ range.
I like the specialization overall. The rifle skills clearly need some work to flow properly but I’ve seen some good gameplay by platinum ranked people who are very hard to lock down and do good ranged sniper style damage.
Most seem to rely on quickness and kneel to hit with extreme speed on multiple shot skills. Very hard to stop if you don’t have a defense skill ready—block or evade is crucial. Reflect is super deadly and effective. This seems necessary as a counter to the damage you can get out of the rifle.
Ok, so now I will talk about my alternative non-rifle build.
I approached this from the perspective I would take my current build and swap out DD for DE.
As for utilities I swapped out for Shadow Meld because as an elite it was both defensive and offensive and offers more than basi venom.
For traits, in a condi build I focused on the ones which grant might and other boon based benefits. This let me stack up to 25 stacks of might on a burst, depending on the class I was fighting. This makes me hit much harder than I would on DD. This also let me be more flexible because the boons on full malice tend to make me more durable overall.
So I would say condi DE is based around boons. I want to try to make a hybrid build but initially I can say that using a condi weapon set on DE is viable.
Mark doesn’t need to have a 1/2 second cast time. Building malice is so fundamental to the subclass that it shouldn’t be clunky to apply.
The effects of malice are interesting but I feel the mechanic makes DE somewhat underwhelming until it builds the malice and can hit the 20k+ hits.
I agree that movement and dodge should break the kneel. It is awkward to double tap 5 to gain stealth without being frozen in place (stealth and re-position being the idea of a sniper).
I’ve been using the DE without rifle and the effect is pretty decent. I’m playing around with the traits but the main thing is Shadow Meld. It is a much stronger elite than the others for stealth based gameplay and a good addition to a build that doesn’t take trickery.
I will say that the addition of so many revealed skills made this elite inevitable and I don’t think it was the best choice to avoid powercreep.
I will need to try out the condi rifle variation of the build but I like the P/D for the versatility and autoattack bleed pressure.
In pvp and WvW there are reward tracks for Glorious and Triumphant armor. Both are stat selectable and easy to get.
Mauraders is expensive enough to justify crafting ascended and convert it in mystic forge. Stat selecting exotics will be decent and “free” in the meantime.
Mauraders is a good baseline you can then use a mix of that and zerker and other stats to reach your desired comfort zone.
Doing no damage to what?
Also, in context of those traitlines what choices did you make?
Yeah, unlocked Daredevil will provide a lot of advantages.
Best choice for gear is to earn stat selectable gear through WvW and pvp reward tracks. Buy the accessories through the pvp league vendor. Then craft ascended weapons and armor.
Or you can do PvE and get various items that way (lots of methods).
D/P is considered meta for power.
Condition builds, of which there are several, are also meta enough now to be worth considering.
Balance has shifted a lot recently so the exact traits are debatable.
Thieves Guild does a lot of damage if you share venoms to them.
Pity the cooldown though.
Ok, I need this because I’m trapped at work.
I need confirmed traits and utilities screenshots. I need stolen skill info for new mechanic. I also need Predator, donations of wood accepted :p
The pvp and WvW reward tracks are great for clovers. I did clovers the old fashioned way for Incinerator but HOPE and now Predator are both reward track driven.
Yeah the supply pile granting a hit is really useful for offhand dagger builds.
Are you referring to improv with the chance to reset the cooldown on deception skills?
Working as intended.