I’m shocked I didn’t make the list and demand a recount. Obviously, half of the votes my opponents received came from Naru’s alts!
Thinking you can dismiss me as though I’m not a thief main is telling.
It’s the combo, not stealth generally to which I’m referring.
Plenty of Druid/rangers, Mesmer/chrono and necromancers.
One match is one match.
Hard to say…many people run multiple characters towards the top.
I mean I killed a person several times with a platinum tag on 1v1 in HotM arena who tried to gank me multiple times. I don’t know if they were a thief main, alt, trying out a new build or what…but they died like a low tier bronze player and hit about as hard too.
Condition thief has just as much access to Shadowstep and more so on S/X. Offhand SB can add distance too. Not sure how D/P + SB is somehow better at disengage. Sure you can on demand stealth but…teleport distance is far more crucial to disengage.
You aren’t wrong :-p
Learning how to fight an experienced condi thief requires more than just knowing what evade frames D/D has or how S/D’s teleport works.
Simple explanations are all I have because experience fighting a build is the best lesson for how to beat it.
By that logic the entire cleanse system should be removed Ivan.
It’s important when you say “condi thief” to actually say whether you are talking about D/D, P/D, SB, or S/X.
Same for power. Was it D/P or P/P or S/X or staff?
Most comments seem oriented at S/X or D/D. I can share a little about fighting them besides the obligatory “learn to time your cleanse.”
D/D is vulnerable to kiting and will waste a lot of time/effort to chase you. Even moderate mobility is a problem for them. You do want a range weapon to pressure them while you are at range. For a condi build if you can load them up and stop attacking, most won’t have much ability to counter it (Daredevil relying on evades for cleanse). Think of them like any other class with decent active defenses and terrible range.
S/X is a different beast because most of its teleport in/out is based on a tether. You can expect them to return to the spot they teleported from. Fight them there and the mobility they have will be much less. Putting them on the defensive will also require some range pressure or the mobility to stay on them. Otherwise, avoid their spike damage and their DPS will drop significantly.
Also, expect to lose sometimes. You aren’t the best player so don’t expect to win against everything all the time.
Steal from warrior: armor piercing rounds
Steal from guard: unblockable rounds
Steal from engineer: incendiary round
Steal from Mesmer: confusing rounds
Or just random abilities :p
I just need the collection and misc stuff for the gift.
I can see it now. HOPE, Incinerator, Predator. I will be complete :-p.
Adding more condition cleanse only means conditions will have to spike people down faster in order to do any damage, that is to say, for condition builds generally to be viable.
Rather, if you don’t like condition damage spiking people down, you should call for less cleanse and a reduction in condition damage to match.
Also, I will point out that you are incorrect that condition damage cannot be reduced outside of duration reduction buffs on food/runes. Cleanse is, effectively, a variable duration reduction. The variable is when a cleanse is activated, what conditions it can target and the remaining duration of said conditions when it removes them early. If you cancel 10k worth on condition damage after it does 2k damage you have effectively reduced the duration by 80%.
It’s a bit old but you can watch the videos linked in my signature for P/D venom based gameplay.
P/D is the primary weaponset rather than secondary in that case.
I dropped Trickery for DA and increased my damage significantly FYI compared to the videos.
EDIT: yes Signet of Agility.
Condi D/D generally focuses on evades/dodge for survivability over stealth. High evade uptime and a signet of precision help quite a bit in avoiding conditions in concert with Shadowstep.
Daredevil can cleanse on evade so in a condi build using evades you can be highly resistant to condi yourself. A warning, you need to have a second and third source of cleanse available because otherwise people can load you up with conditions and then stop attacking while you flail around trying to evade attacks that aren’t coming.
If you like stealth based gameplay you can try P/D as an alternative. It’s what I run and can be highly effective in some situations.
Feel free to pm me in game and I’ll help you out in person if I can.
I’ve been running without Trickery and it can be done. The main issue is losing initiative on steal because that really improves the flexibility of the followup opportunities post-steal. That is what I feel like I miss most from not taking Trickery. It just feels awkward because steal places you in harms way but initiative is key to thief survival (blinds, interrupts, evades, etc). If you steal with low initiative you are vulnerable for using a core mechanic. Most don’t notice though because the steal restores a small but crucial chunk of initiative.
If anything should be made baseline/moved to another specialization it’s the initiative gain on steal. The base increase and cooldown reductions on steal should remain in Trickery. This keeps the line attractive but spreads out the initiative regen aspect (lower steal with Trickery is effectively high initiative regen).
This also doesn’t require buffing thief by inventing new traits.
Sorry little late in replying.
Of course insta kill builds are discouraging…but new players know they suck and expect to die to experienced players. Even non insta kill builds will kill new players quickly enough.
Point being, you can’t balance a game around people who are unfamiliar with the mechanics and end up dying because of that. I try to help new players when I can but I can’t be expected to not play at a level which can kill good players just because that may feel overwhelming to newer ones.
I think all those builds are viable at a higher level. I also think that’s a good thing. More build variety is good and newer players aren’t run off by condi builds so much as any high damage build.
Allow me to explain. A condition build will so much less damage if a player builds to cleanse conditions. Likewise, a power build will do much less damage if a player builds in more active and passive defenses to power damage.
Newer players, however, don’t do either very well. Even if they do one they often don’t do both. So naturally newer players die rapidly and often. Then they hear misinformed people saying “conditions are cancer” and “conditions are op” and believe what they hear because well, if others think it it must be true, right?
I’d wager that most people who stop playing pvp do so because of the toxicity of other players who yell and scream and bully new players who, admittedly, need to learn how to play (both their class and pvp generally).
P/D 3 is a port. D/D 3 is an evade. I’d say both provide melee protection that suits the type of damage done (range and melee).
P/D was viable in high gold low platinum.
I’ve seen S/X in a couple of matches but the more recent buffs likely make it a lot more viable. Will. E interesting to see people try it out in the off season.
I’d ignore metabattle but that’s just my distaste for mixing a highly skill/play style dependent class with a set of pre-made builds.
Thief is pvp viable in any event.
I strongly agree the new badges are painful to look at.
Please revert/rework.
I’ll try to do some tests on Rending Shade and see how that plays with boons now.
Seems nice but I’m surprised my Fervent Malice build (which was more theory crafting alternative roles for a thief) made it in while my actual build (P/D conditions) which has admittedly changed since I last updated my build videos, did not.
I made it to platinum last pvp season running P/D so I think I’m justified in calling it viable. Offhand shortbow on a condi build applies cleave etc.
I could see it in a bunker Deadeye build. Speaking of which, I may pm you in game babaz re: Deadeye theory crafting.
Seems we will be having some fun soon with that.
I’ve been on vacation and away from the game so I’m just catching up on the patch, expansion, etc.
I actually don’t use it, was just teasing.
Am I that weirdo Jana? ;p
Shadow Meld is the elite utility.
Two thieves can be devastating. Of course people will insist it can never work and force a thief to swap to a class they are less effective with.
So many losses that way.
I’d support a tactivator where a player replaces the lord for 15 minutes and is granted increased stats like with a siege golem only using Siegerazor’s skills.
Lol, runs build for years effectively, told “it’s made up.”
That’s my feedback, take it or leave it I guess.
No game with 5 weapon skills and 5 utility skills is “complicated.”
It’s the rest of it: positioning, timing, trait planning, mechanics etc which make it somewhat complex.
Playing P/D relies on offhand dagger for stealth and has a use for skills 1-4 in various circumstances.
P/P is also quite vulnerable if not played with lots of other traits/skills FYI. But, you’re right the alpha spike of chaining unloads is a little absurd :p
No, I’m suggesting that mindless spam of a few buttons won’t work. And I’ve fought people and know the difference.
If all someone does is spam 3 on d/d and dodge…I will end them in less than 5 seconds.
You missed the part where high cleanse post HoT incentivized burst condi builds.
That said condi burst was always a thing that was possible, but fewer build ran those builds. This is based on my experience running condi almost since launch.
Evade uptime mainly became a problem with HoT because of all the endurance regen. The same is true for staff power thief. The good ones have extremely high evade uptime.
Lol at anyone who thinks they are skilled and losing just because condition builds are “skillless.”
You all always cite to “condi is skillless” as though it is gospel truth without any justification whatsoever. Whoever started that meme is a genius of marketing to create something people parrot unthinkingly for so long.
I’ve fought every single condition build in this game. So I know exactly how good the classes are respectively and how good conditions as a whole are. Are there easy builds to play? Yes. Do conditions themselves make them easy? No.
I’ve fought newer players on all the trouble builds (power and condi) and they die quick. The veterans are the ones who do well. And that’s because they have “skill,” by which I mean mechanical knowledge of class and game mechanics required to succeed using a build.
Take condi mesmer/ chrono for example. That’s a condi build that gets a lot of hate. I’ve fought newer ones who were terrible. I’ve fought experienced ones who were ridiculously survivable, stealthy and damaging. The difference was skill.
Skillless? Lol.
You claim bad people are being carried and yet I never see these bad thieves actually winning.
I’ve fought good and bad condi thieves and it shows. I mean really shows.
By two button I assume you mean dodge and DB spam builds. Lol. Those builds need steal and at least precision signet to restore endurance and deal damage because their traits need to be damage focused rather than taking acro line. Suddenly two buttons becomes 4-6—because they need gap closing utilities and probably basi venom to improve their odds of landing a lot of their attacks. Not to mention channeled vigor for more dodges as their heal.
So, from experience fighting these builds, I’d say you have no idea what you are talking about. If they only use two buttons they will be laughably ineffective. If they use their skills poorly they will likewise be ineffective. If they are good they can be effective in certain circumstances. A good D/D thief is like a good staff thief in that regard.
And if you get wrecked by someone who only literally presses two buttons then you are objectively bad at this game. Period.
Anet will probably provide projectile bonuses to the elite spec so we will see how that meshes with our current meta, rifle nonwithstanding.
Ideally it will provide more stealth oriented gameplay as opposed to evade based Daredevil.
A year from now: “sPvP is dead!”
I had a match yesterday where everyone clicked without needing to communicate.
No one stayed mid to try to take it when it wasn’t going well (not sure anyone died). We almost seamlessly swapped to far/home and just sat on the nodes for a minute collecting a lead. Then back to mid and lost far, but we decapped far almost as soon as they took it.
I’m not sure how to achieve that kind of synergy consistently without communication. So I’d say the best way to climb is communicate effectively. In combat, saying “back” can help not let people die.
It is also helpful to have portal support for home. You should be able to bunker up home against a decap if you keep an eye on the map. If you can guard home while supporting mid it takes a lot of pressure off your team. People function better when they aren’t stressing about being constantly backcapped.
Also help your team pick a target. So many teams don’t bother with targeting. You need to know what target is the biggest threat and which is the squishiest (not always the same one). Depending on how the fight is going a target call may win it for you. Also do this for downs on your team. Target them if res is possible and give your team cover for a res. Chrono shield is good for that.
I’ve said it before. Remove condition removal and rebalance around DoT.
Only way to save people from themselves.
P/D is effective. But few people bother to learn it because the skill required to make it work is higher than D/D which is what most people treat as entry level condi thief.
As babaz said, the advantage is in on demand immobilize and kiting mobility with shadowstrike. The damage is better than D/D with the disadvantage of being projectile based (reflect and LoS issues).
I’d say that, given the build variety available, meta is mainly D/P by convention and practice than being the hands down winning in all sPvP situations.
Rather than build is how you can leverage it.
Take home if the other team isn’t too mobile. You will get to mid before the other team’s home player and spike some damage where it needs to be.
If the other team is more mobile and vulnerable to 1v1, support at mid (call targets and dps) while a heavier point fighter grabs home. Let the enemy have far until they run to support mid—slip behind them with stealth and decap the point 5-10 seconds after they take it.
And be prepared to tell your team what to do. If you win at mid and home and your team is behind, tell them to hold. Just hold. So often people lose a match because two go far and one home to stop decap. Then a enemy bunker holds far while your ally fails to stop decap and their team goes 3v2 at mid and focuses your ally. Stay calm and guide them to victiry if you can. *if
Happened to me a few days ago. Match was close and we were winning going into 400 points.
Lost 30-40 seconds to communicating and swapping. Lost the match by 75 points.
There has to be a way to improve collision detection around some of these locations :/
Looks decent, the only thing I might change is the elite for double interrupt and large damage (easily over 10k potential on the whole chain).
It’s just like…if it only is correct less than half the time why even bother.
Travelers is less used because Daredevil can have perma swiftness and acro has higher uptime as well.
Thorns and Krait are popular. With poison I can see some runes being even more popular with the buffed choking gas.
Use a build that can survive being beat on while putting out consistent/decent pressure. Be able to handle both conditions and power damage at roughly the same level.
Then, run around with a group. Expect to die a lot. Try to focus on not dying more than doing damage. Then when you are staying alive focus on increasing damage while not overextending.
Finally, if your class is able, do some small group roaming and learn to build for maximum defense/offense. This is class specific and may not be possible on all classes.
Overall, play the game, find a tag and focus on surviving. This is not a “fair” game mode. You will be outnumbered. You will die to focus fire from 10-30 people. You will hit people who appear to be immortal because they built themselves to be insanely resistant to damage. Don’t focus on them. Focus on you and on the goals you set for yourself (stay alive, capture the objectives and kill your enemies).
Condition damage is harder to balance with all the cleanse floating around.
Nerf cleanse, nerf condition output and then we can talk about “condi op.”
So I’ve been experimenting with a new variant of the build I normally run. In this build I’ve dropped Trickery and replaced it with DA. The other two lines are Daredevil and SA. I was worried about the loss of the Trickery line and honestly have not nearly as disadvantaged as I thought I would.
With this build I get access to low cool downs across HiS and Shadowstep, stealth on steal every 30 seconds and boonsteal on stealth attacks. If I really want I can swap out the stealth on steal for the lower venom cooldowns (24, 24, 32 respectively).
I lose the extra initiative but I gain the damage boost from DA which makes up for the loss of confusion and the loss of cooldown reduction on steal. The gain of poison on immobilize turns Body Shot into a solid attack skill. The extra poison on steal is more reliable than confusion and the spider venom I use is much stronger.
Overall, the build is less reliant on initiative, much like the power builds after the auto-attack changes.
I’ll report back about WvW after I’ve done some more WvW testing.
Not a huge bug but I’ve noticed the lights on the pedestals don’t always reflect the victory screen.
Last match I had three top stats (kills, revives and offense) and none of them showed up on the pedestal in lights.
I mean, I don’t really care that much. But it seems like a bug so I’d thought a thread was appropriate.